From: Digestifier To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 21:13:11 EST Subject: Linux-Development Digest #277 Linux-Development Digest #277, Volume #1 Tue, 30 Nov 93 21:13:11 EST Contents: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Rajappa Iyer) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Kaleb Keithley) Re: Voicemail/Answering Machine program?? Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Jay Schmidgall) Re: Comments from the "TAMU Crap" author (Curtis Yarvin) Re: TCL/Tk vs Motif/C++ or TCL/Tk with C++? (Gustaf Neumann) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Butch Deal) Application Framework (Peter P Chiu) Status of WABI (Mario Camou) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (damercer@mmm.com) Re: 0.99.14 (was Re: Found slow socket bug :)) (H. Peter Anvin N9ITP) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Elizabeth Haley) Re: Status of WABI (Lars Wirzenius) Re: Any idea how to AUTOIRQ a parallel port? (Pete Wenzel) Some questions from an new user... (Allan Clearwaters - System Guru) Re: Free Software and Motif (was: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: ...) (R. Stewart Ellis) Re: Free Software and Motif (was: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: ...) (R. Stewart Ellis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss From: rsi@netcom.com (Rajappa Iyer) Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 18:56:43 GMT In mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes: >In article richard@harlequin.co.uk (Richard Brooksby) writes: > I find multi-volume IO very useful, for example. But don't add it to > tar, dd, cpio, etc. Think first, and make a new tool for the purpose, > and keep it simple. >You apparently haven't thought about it at all. The reason that >multi-volume support needs to be in tar is so that later volumes can >be complete archives, and (except for the file split between volumes) >can be read without needing context from a previous volume. Seems to me that the whole discussion is missing one of the basic principles behind the tool approach. Combine to extend instead of duplicating code. Multivolume backups can be handled with existing tools--- /bin/sh, ls, xargs, tar, gzip etc. spring to mind. A little creative use of existing tools can get you far more mileage from the system than writing monolithic monsters that do everything from backup to fixing you coffee (not that the last bit wouldn't be welcome :) Offhand, I would say that I have come across less than a dozen "new" feature which I found truly useful and could not be (almost) trivially implemented using "conventional" tools. Ladies and gentlemen: homework assignment. Please go back and read Kernighan and Pike's book "The Unix Programming Environment." And digest it. Please! -- Rajappa Iyer La Jolla, CA. (619) 457-7509 They also surf who only stand on waves. ------------------------------ From: kaleb@expo.lcs.mit.edu (Kaleb Keithley) Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: 30 Nov 93 20:06:26 GMT glp@teal.csn.org (Glenn Pinkerton) writes: >I wrote: >>I sincerely doubt this had anything to do with Motif. The whole library >>is ~500k on a Sun SPARC. Even if your link editor pulls in every last >>module in libXm, libXt, and libX11, (statically linked) the libraries >>only contribute ~1.5meg, unstripped. That 35 meg came from somewhere >>else. >> > Certainly the library is not all that large, but the library size has >little to do with the actual amount of memory used at run time. Who said anything about runtime? The original post referred to a 35 meg stripped executable *FILE*. Think and read before you post. Sheesh. ------------------------------ From: stub@pce60 () Subject: Re: Voicemail/Answering Machine program?? Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 17:34:46 GMT ha (aehall@netcom.com) wrote: : Would it be possible to write an answering program that uses just : a standard modem or would special hardware be required?? standard modem ? i dont think a modem w/o voice-functions would be usefull... : If a standard modem could be used, could this program be essentially : a combination of kermit (to receive the RING and pick up) and : the soundcard "record" and "play" programs (to record the message) that : uses /dev/ttySx instead of /dev/audio. (Yes, simplistic I know.) there is a package called modgetty which claims to do exactly that job for zyxel modems... ..but i havent been able to get it running... play and record from this pkg dont like me or my modem :-( : Just wondering... me 2 ! bye, Ulf. ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: shmdgljd@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Jay Schmidgall) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 19:32:42 GMT Reply-To: jay@vnet.ibm.com In article , kaleb@expo.lcs.mit.edu (Kaleb Keithley) writes: |> Perhaps someone would like to substantiate heresay with some factual data. |> At my prior employer I used Motif to develop a "real-time" status display |> to monitor ground equipment. The programs responded instantaneously and |> repeated profile analysis showed that the negligible amount of CPU that |> they did use was not in Motif. I would characterize Motif as anything but |> slow. Yah, with a workstation on my desk, its fine. However, its widgets do tend to redraw themselves entirely, say, rather than just the part that gets uncovered. Nothing quite like running a Motif app over a SLIP connection with a line speed of 9600 (or even 38400, for that matter). But that's neither here nor there w/regard to using it for free software. -- : jay jay@vnet.ibm.com My opinions and ideas, not my employer's. : shmdgljd@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (c) Copyright 1993. All rights reserved. ------------------------------ From: curtis@boa.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Curtis Yarvin) Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.i386unix Subject: Re: Comments from the "TAMU Crap" author Date: 30 Nov 1993 11:56:05 -0800 In article <1993Nov30.171408.4161@kf8nh.wariat.org>, Brandon S. Allbery wrote: > >...only if it's for a supported chipset. Check the OS/2 Installation Guide. >And in any case, while you might be able to do it with Linux dosemu, you can't >do it *portably* with *every* *ix that XFree86 runs on. XFree86 is NOT Linux- >specific! YUURGH! I've heard this mantrated ten or fifteen times and the more I hear it the sillier it sounds. Of course XFree86 isn't Linux/BSD-specific. Of course there are three or four people out there running it on old Esix 3.2D boxes that don't have decent commercial X support and are in Madagascar so they can't download Linux from the net or have it mailed to them by JANA because the lemurs would break the CD case. Of course. And I'm not saying this is wrong. But saying "we refuse to add this feature because it wouldn't work on Esix 3.2D" is like saying "we refuse to support acceleration because it won't work on the ET4000." It's dogmatic and silly. I appreciate the good work that the XFree86 people have done, but it pisses me off when political termites like this eat their way into a good project. c ------------------------------ From: neumann@watson.ibm.com (Gustaf Neumann) Subject: Re: TCL/Tk vs Motif/C++ or TCL/Tk with C++? Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 19:08:31 GMT In article from [26 Nov 93 03:51:12 GMT] you wrote: |> In hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) writes: |> >Please ignore the stuff about tk vs. interviews and read what |> >Mr Linton has done with tcl. I am including the full message |> >to avoid mis-interpretation on my part. X11R6 is going to fun :) |> > .... |> |> >You are not making a relevant comparison. The fast turnaround and |> >interpretation of scripts comes from Tcl, not Tk. Several people |> |> I get the same experience for the binding of tcl to Motif that I did: |> the short code, the quick development cycle, etc, come from using tcl, |> not from Tk. I have dropped a 7000 line C/Motif program down to 700 |> lines of tclMotif. Not a bad saving! [tclMotif is on ftp.x.org under |> /contrib/tclMotif*.Z] i can second that from my experience with Wafe (tcl binding for Athena and MOTIF) where i measured the savings form C/Motif and C/Athena. The GUI part shrinks typically by a factor 6 to 10 depending on programming style etc. The debugging time is much shorter since memory allocation bugs, the tedious XmString handling etc. are done on a much higher level (in wafe) and not in the application level. Of course, if the non-gui part of an application is large, the saving is less. For runtime efficiency of the GUI part, you won't notice a difference. Wafe can be obtained from ftp.wu-wien.ac.at:pub/src/X11/wafe/*; both the Athena and OSF/Motif version of wafe support Mosaic 2.0's HTML widget (i've written an Athena (Xaw3d) port). -gustaf neumann -- Gustaf Neumann neumann@watson.ibm.com Postdoctoral/Visiting Scientist Tel: (914) 784 7086 IBM T.J.Watson Research Center, P.O.Box 704 Yorktown Heights, New York 10598 ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: deal@ait.nrl.navy.mil (Butch Deal) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Reply-To: deal@ait.nrl.navy.mil Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 20:26:39 GMT In article , kaleb@expo.lcs.mit.edu (Kaleb Keithley) writes: |> glp@teal.csn.org (Glenn Pinkerton) writes: |> |> >I wrote: |> >>I sincerely doubt this had anything to do with Motif. The whole library |> >>is ~500k on a Sun SPARC. Even if your link editor pulls in every last |> >>module in libXm, libXt, and libX11, (statically linked) the libraries |> >>only contribute ~1.5meg, unstripped. That 35 meg came from somewhere |> >>else. |> >> |> |> > Certainly the library is not all that large, but the library size has |> >little to do with the actual amount of memory used at run time. |> |> Who said anything about runtime? The original post referred to a 35 meg |> stripped executable *FILE*. |> |> Think and read before you post. Sheesh. |> yes the file was 35 Meg but the machine it was run on (a sparc 2 64 Meg Ram) needed 200 Meg swap to run it. There were alot of menues and lists. The program did have a large pixmap compiled in but not THAT large. -- #include The Butcher Butch Deal deal@ait.nrl.navy.mil ================================================================================ ------------------------------ From: ppc2@cec2.wustl.edu (Peter P Chiu) Crossposted-To: comp.windows.misc,comp.windows.open-look,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.motif,comp.windows.x.apps,alt.uu.comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.misc Subject: Application Framework Date: 30 Nov 1993 20:51:33 GMT is there an object oriented application framework for X windows out there? can someone please tell me where it is? please respond directly to ppc2@cec.wustl.edu thank you very much in advance. -- .&______~*@*~______&. m Peter Chiu "w/%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%\w" mmm*** Washington University, St. Louis `Y""Y""Y"""""Y""Y""Y' mm***** ppc2@cec2.wustl.edu p-p_|__|__|_____|__|__|_q-q mm**Y** 275 Union Blvd, #711, St. Louis, _-[EEEEM==M==MM===MM==M==MEEEE]-_.|..|.... Missouri 63108 (314) 367-3599 ------------------------------ From: camou@csid.gmeds.com (Mario Camou) Subject: Status of WABI Date: 30 Nov 1993 15:20:38 -0500 Does anybody out there know what the status is for a WABI (Windows Application Binary Interface) for Linux? How about running MS-Windows under dosemu? -- Mario Camou / EDS Mexico Client-Server Integration Team I haven't lost my mind...it's on an anonymous FTP server somewhere! ============================================================================== My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: damercer@mmm.com Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Reply-To: damercer@mmm.com Date: Tue, 30 Nov 93 21:55:37 GMT Rob Healey (rhealey@sirius.aggregate.com) wrote: : In article <1993Nov29.223757.20592@mmm.mmm.com>, wrote: : [ Stuff deleted ] : >Use the selectColor resource to set the color you want to see when : >radio buttons are selected, for instance: : > : >*selectColor: Red : > : [ Stuff deleted ] : >Try setting the shadowThickness resource. Setting it to 1 and setting : >the topShadowColor == bottomShadowColor leaves a 2d button. Setting : >it to zero removes the button borders completely. Of course, you : >also lose the animation of the button push as the top and bottom : >colors swap. : > : >: There is no need for any button, shade or anything else on output only : >: applications like a perfmeter or a clock. : > : >And in motif can easily be removed. : > : >I've used every major GUI. I like Motif the best. : > : : I FINALLY discovered why people are drawn to MOTIF! Like the PC : world it came out of, you have to ditz with it's equivelent of : a config.sys for hours or days in order to get it to work right! : What FUN is it if your Window system or OS has good defaults that : work right out of the box?!?! : 1/2 B^), : -Rob : #include : Speaking for myself only of course. You don't have to ditz, you can ditz. That's a major difference. The ditzing is normally done by the application programmers. However, users, if they have the desire and knowledge, can customize tehir own setups. That is not available to MSW and MAC users where you get what someone else decides you want. Of course, really clever applications have GUI interfaces to guide you to the right customizing choices. Where this flexibility really comes in handy is when you have to adapt someone else's applications to fill a need in yours. -- Dan Mercer Applications + Plus Reply To: damercer@mmm.com "The Mad Pedant" ====================================================================== About a year ago I told the following joke which got a strong positive reaction from only 1 in 5 (all males my age - 40+) and shrugs from the rest. I wonder if it is more relevant now? "What does Mogadishu mean in Somali?" Answer - "Saigon" ------------------------------ From: hpa@ahab.eecs.nwu.edu (H. Peter Anvin N9ITP) Subject: Re: 0.99.14 (was Re: Found slow socket bug :)) Reply-To: hpa@nwu.edu (H. Peter Anvin) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 21:48:47 GMT In article <2de9om$ont@snake.cs.berkeley.edu> of comp.os.linux.development, curtis@snake.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Curtis Yarvin) writes: > > And BREAK SELECT AGAIN! It's silly to have a system with > everything broken perfectly to Posix spec, except for select(). > select() is not POSIX at all. I presume you are talking about bug-compatibility with BSD (which doesn't return the amount of time left of a timeout). I remember there being a trivial workaround to make this work with programs who assume more than what the spec allows (the Linux select() is perfectly to spec, as far as I know); maybe the compatibility code can be put in the standard library and a #define can be put in, say, bsd/select.h or whatever. /hpa -- INTERNET: hpa@nwu.edu FINGER/TALK: hpa@ahab.eecs.nwu.edu IBM MAIL: I0050052 at IBMMAIL NeXTMAIL: hpa@speedy.acns.nwu.edu FIDONET: 1:115/511 or 1:115/989.4 HAM RADIO: N9ITP or SM4TKN --- The real message begins here --- ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) From: haley@scws14.harvard.edu (Elizabeth Haley) Date: 30 Nov 93 21:20:32 GMT rsi@netcom.com (Rajappa Iyer) writes: >Offhand, I would say that I have come across less than a dozen "new" >feature which I found truly useful and could not be (almost) trivially >implemented using "conventional" tools. >Ladies and gentlemen: homework assignment. Please go back and read >Kernighan and Pike's book "The Unix Programming Environment." And >digest it. Please! O.K. Rajappa, while we're doing our homework, here's some for you: Given a directory "stuff" which contains 35 files, avaeraging 2-3 Mega bytes in size, and given a device "/dev/fd0a"; a 1.44 Meg floppy drive, design a shell script that will put these files onto a series of disks. We must then be able to retrieve these same files with either the same or another script. There must be less than 256 bytes of dead space on any disk, except the last. Then, compare the space usage, and execution time of these scripts as compared to GNU tar or other multi-volume archivers. Also consider these results if it had been 35,000 files across several 4 gig tapes... -- Hacksaw ------------------------------ From: wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius) Subject: Re: Status of WABI Date: 30 Nov 1993 23:31:23 +0200 camou@csid.gmeds.com (Mario Camou) writes: > Does anybody out there know what the status is for a WABI (Windows > Application Binary Interface) for Linux? It's called Wine and a status announcement was just posted to comp.os.linux.announce. (It's a good idea to read that group. It's low volume, and should contain only important stuff. When it doesn't, you should flame the moderator. Er..., on second thoughts, just mail me a polite note. :-) -- Lars.Wirzenius@helsinki.fi (finger wirzeniu@klaava.helsinki.fi) Humans are unreliable, computers are non-deterministically reliable. ------------------------------ From: pmwenzel@gg.caltech.edu (Pete Wenzel) Subject: Re: Any idea how to AUTOIRQ a parallel port? Date: 30 Nov 1993 22:00:31 GMT davem@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (David Monro) writes: >On a similar note, why is CONFIG_AUTO_IRQ (for the serial ports) not >available as an option at make config time? It seems I have to hack it >into serial.h, or am I missing something? Once I do, it works perfectly. The easier way is to add the following line to config.in: bool 'Auto-detect serial IRQs' CONFIG_AUTO_IRQ y then you will be able to choose that option at config/compile time. The reason its use is discouraged is, as I understand it, because poking around at the ports to determine serial IRQ has an ill effect when certain ethernet boards are installed. The preferred method is to use the "setserial" program in rc.local to configure the serial hardware correctly on each machine. --Pete ____ ____ _/ \ Pete Wenzel -- pmwenzel@caltech.edu / \_ / _ `--_ __ Caltech Computer Graphics Group _____--' _ \ | | \ ---\_/---\ Home Phone/FAX (818) 797-9766 ,_/------- / | | | |_/ ----------`-^-^\ Lab (818) 395-2820 /^-^-^-'---------- \_| | \_ ___=============/ Mail Code 256-80 \===============___ _/ \____/ Pasadena, CA 91125 \____/ ------------------------------ From: allan@colossus.mct.uucp (Allan Clearwaters - System Guru) Subject: Some questions from an new user... Date: 30 Nov 93 18:46:31 GMT I have just (like last week) installed SLS 1.04 on the following hardware: Apricot XEN LS-II PC, 16M ram, 500M disk. The system has an onboard Sony CD-ROM, Adlib sound system, Cirrus controller on the local bus, and ethernet. After a few initial problems, I was able to get Linux up and running and I am impressed. Now its time to ask a few questions: 1) Ethernet In order to get networking up, I have installed an SMC card. However, the XEN an on-board ethernet interface based on an Apricot 596 ethernet controller. Has anyone out there had any experience writing a driver for this beast?? 2) CD-ROM I am continually experiencing read failures on the CD. In particular, if I attempt to do something like a grep or find, the CD will eventually go into a read/retry loop from which it never returns. Is this a known problem?? Do I need to tune/path the CD fs code?? 3) Releases For my information, how are Linux releases numbered?? I see references to 113/114/115; my release comes up with SLS 1.04. Is there a simple relationship?? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many Thanx (in advance) Allan Clearwaters -- -- ======================================================================= = Allan Clearwaters Phone: 44+(684)569292 = ------------------------------ From: ellis@nova.gmi.edu (R. Stewart Ellis) Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix Subject: Re: Free Software and Motif (was: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: ...) Date: 30 Nov 93 21:57:06 GMT kem@prl.ufl.edu (Kelly Murray) writes: >In article , rhealey@sirius.aggregate.com (Rob Healey) writes: >|> Ahhh, but here is the rub. OSF now has a MONOPOLY on THE GUI for >|> UNIX based systems. There is no other alternative now that >|> OpenLook has been defeated. If you want to sell a product in >|> to the UNIX(tm) market you MUST use OSF Motif L&F, you have NO >|> other choice. Historically MONOPOLYS are usually bad news for >|> everyone except the MONOPOLY itself. This is the real issue here. >OpenLook was even /worse/ an alternative, since it was only SUN who owned the >monopoly, and not a consortium of many different companies. You are >quite right that a MONOPOLY is most always bad news for consumers. This is really incorrect. AT&T and Sun developed OpenLook. There were several toolkits available. The main one developed by Sun was Xview, which was contributed, *SOURCE* and all, to the X consortium. Anyone who wanted it could get the source and port it to the X/UNIX platform of their choice. Xview is included with XFree86, along with the OpenLook Window Manager and the Cmdtool/Shelltool terminal tool. All of the things that are available in source code that are coded with Xview work, except those things that depend on Sun's DevGuide application generator. People also ported Xview to DEC Ultrix and HPUX. What WAS proprietary to Sun was the XNeWS extension that they called OpenWindows and the toolkits that used the NeWS side of this, such as TNT. >|> >|> Until there is another source for the L&F which the industry has >|> deemed necessary for UNIX products you are stuck in the traditional >|> proprietary trap. Not surprising since the founders of OSF were >|> masters of proprietary entrapment of end users... B^(. >|> >But the specification is now public, so the only thing proprietary is actual code. >This is much different than traditional proprietary traps. The Notif project has been announced on the Linux groups by the author of Crisp, the Brief clone for UNIX. >|> Hopefully a Free implementation of the L&F will come out in the >|> near future to provide a "balance of terror" so to speak against >|> OSF's wild and wacky licensing. >Does anyone really think for a minute that some startup company won't >quickly fill the demand for Motif compatible libraries? >I'll speculate it will be about 6-12 months before you'll be able >to buy such a library. This is probably why OSF is now trying to >be more agressive in enforcing their copyrights --- they don't have much >time before their current sole-source status is gone. I hope the prediction of clones is correct on time. >|> >|> I still can't believe the industry was suckered in to swallowing a >|> proprietary L&F for something as fundemental as a user interface. B^(. >|> >|> OSF must have borrowed Micro$oft's marketing dept. for this... >|> >Let's hope they do! Otherwise, we will have a *real* Monopoly to overcome. >-- >-- Kelly Murray (kem@prl.ufl.edu) >University of Florida Parallel Research Lab :: 96-node KSR1, 64-node nCUBE >Send mail to ncx@netcom.com for deals on Actix S3 Video cards: >ISA Actix GE32 1mb: $129, GE32+2mb: $179, Ultra+2mbVram: $299 >------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- R.Stewart(Stew) Ellis, Assoc.Prof., (Off)313-762-9765 ___________________ Humanities & Social Science, GMI Eng.& Mgmt. Inst. / _____ ______ Flint, MI 48504 ellis@nova.gmi.edu / / / / / / Gopher,News and sendmail maintainer, all around hack /________/ / / / / ------------------------------ From: ellis@nova.gmi.edu (R. Stewart Ellis) Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix Subject: Re: Free Software and Motif (was: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: ...) Date: 30 Nov 93 22:08:52 GMT rhealey@sirius.aggregate.com (Rob Healey) writes: <> > The ONLY reason MOTIF(tm) has gotten anywhere is because it looks > and behaves like, Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech, Windows. That is the > only reason it was accepted by the industry, certainly not for it's > memory leaking technical merits. The humorous part is that Motif could > still be subject to Look and Feel infringements if some legal beagle > gets antsy. At least Sun double checked with Xerox to make sure it's > L&F was clean... Actually Sun and AT&T bid OpenLook, but the whole point of OSF was to put roadblocks in front of Sun and AT&T. HP, DEC and IBM recognized the threat of the new juggernaut. Motif was chosen partially because of its resemblance to the OS/2 windows and HP's OO addon to Windows (what was it called?). Sun not only had checked with Xerox, they had cross licensed with Apple for the Mac stuff (trashcan icon, etc.). > Anyways, I hope a Free version of the API built from PUBLICALLY > AVAILABLE documents will become available soon. It's embarrassing > that the supposed "Open Systems" industry chose a proprietary, single > source vendor for the user interface of "Open Systems"; sigh. Remember OSF really stood for "Oppose Sun Forever" according to Scott McNealy. Give to Notif. Maybe we can get them to put round and oval buttons in as an option. I too like the cleanness of the looks of OL, but we could still have some of the OL L&F with the Motif API. I sortof suspect COSE will inject some OL'ness into Motif. > -Rob >#include >Speaking for myself only of course. -- R.Stewart(Stew) Ellis, Assoc.Prof., (Off)313-762-9765 ___________________ Humanities & Social Science, GMI Eng.& Mgmt. Inst. / _____ ______ Flint, MI 48504 ellis@nova.gmi.edu / / / / / / Gopher,News and sendmail maintainer, all around hack /________/ / / / / ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Development-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.development) via: Internet: Linux-Development@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Development Digest ******************************