From: Digestifier To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 20:13:10 EST Subject: Linux-Development Digest #271 Linux-Development Digest #271, Volume #1 Mon, 29 Nov 93 20:13:10 EST Contents: Network usage patches, replies (L Lundman) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Mario Klebsch DG1AM) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Michael I Bushnell) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Michael I Bushnell) Re: ESC [ m (was Re: console.c questions) ("John E. Davis") Re: Tough! Quit griping! Was: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Piercarlo Grandi) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Paul Eggert) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Thomas Koenig) Appletalk under LINUX? (Troy Thoele) Re: [Q] Big modem installation for Linux? (Grant Edwards) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Frank Lofaro) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Frank Lofaro) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Chris Flatters) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Michael I Bushnell) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Michael I Bushnell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lundman@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (L Lundman) Subject: Network usage patches, replies Date: 29 Nov 1993 19:45:55 GMT Woah! :) I didn't think that many people would respond to our previous post but thinking that we're the only ones with the problem was probably foolish :) Here's the deal, we just fired up the system locally on our machine and will be seeing how it's running, and if all goes well, we'll release an alpha later on. Currently it's very customized, as in, the idea of what is 'local' and what is 'overseas' are hardcoded, as well as the costs. The inetd stuff are a pain as well, as they are run as root initially but all other connections are working. Currently the user pays XX amount of money and they can use the network 'till it runs out and then all further xmits/receives are refused (unfortunately even close/ack packets, don't bother flaming me btw) so we'll have to extend it to have a mode of operations where it simply accounts for packets. Hopefully in the near future we can release our code in a working state :) Yours, Kef -- =============================================================================== Jorgen Lundman eMail: lundman@kauri.vuw.ac.nz, lundman@rata.vuw.ac.nz. 8 Atua Street My thoughts are my own and not VUW's.. Johnsonville,wgtn "The reason people get lost in thought is because it's New Zealand such an unfamiliar territory" : (Unknown) Phone: +64 4 782 724 (GMT+11 hrs) ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: mkl@rob.cs.tu-bs.de (Mario Klebsch DG1AM) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 19:11:09 GMT aad@dvorak.amd.com (Anthony A. Datri) writes: >>Xaw is small and fast, but there is not a trace of the >>consistence, that make a GUI easy to use. >How can pseudo-3D art-deco borders around everything POSSIBLY make an >application easier to use? A button is a button, regardless of what stupid >decorations are around it. In fact, the Motif toolkit can make an application >*harder* to use because the stupid borders swell the window size so much >that your windows end up obscuring each other more. Agreed. The use of color or shades of grey in motif is awful. Some weeks ago I saw Motif for the first time. I was supporting the port of a MS-Windows application using a portable C++ library to a unix box using motif and the same library. We used a greyscale X display. And I had problems to see wether the radio buttons were pressed or not. But fortunatly, when we delivered the software, the client had an X-sever software for a PC, which was not able to allocate some colors needed by motif. So motif switched back to B&W and the radio buttons were fine ??? (and we did not have the problem of explaining our client that it was his own wish to use motif). The next thing I noticed was, that all the dialog boxes had to be resized. This is not the fault of motif, but of the programming style in out application. But it is an indicator, that the decoration around buttons,... needs a lot of space on screen. We probably will have workstations with 30" screen soon.. :-) >What's a "selection tool"? A lot of application using a GUI are editors. An editor works on objects. In a drawing application there are e.g. line, arc, text objects (any many more). The basic concept in almost every editor is selecting the object(s) to edit _first_ using a selection tool, and modify it _afterwards_. Some applications have a rich set of selection tools. First there is the arrow. This tool clears the current selection and the object cliced upon is the new selection. Sometimes this tool is also capable of selecting a range of objects (e.g.inside a rectangle). There are tools to expand the selection or to deselect some objets currently selected. And sometimes there is a tool to (de)select only a specific object contained in a grouped object. >>The are e.g. Open Look Application Style Guidelines, that describe the concepts to >>follow when building an application. >They would appear to state that menu buttons work oppositely from the entire >reset of the world, and that applications not have a quit button. I don't like these thinks in Open Look too. But the regulations in style guidelines are far more than that. Have you ever read the Human Interface Guidelines for the Apple Macintosh? Go to your local bookstore and take a look at them. You will be surprised, what the application developer can do to make the application "feel" better. There are regulations about the use of color, what to write on the label of a button, the order of the buttons in a dialog box, the use of keyboard shortcuts, ... Some of these regulations are easy to follow, some are not. And if I, the user, am used to using applications, that follow these regulations, I am suffering from applications not following these regulations. MS-Word on the Macintosh is a good example of a program violating the Human Interface Guidelines. But if you have a Mac, you can fix a lot of these violations. (But you do not have ...., I know, and this is the reason, why I use a Sun anyway.) And allmost all of these regulations are explained. I know it is easier to follow regulations, when knowing why. >>the same on _all_ GUI's including MS-Windows, Macintosh, Openlook and Motif >None of those is a GUI because nothing can *be* a GUI. You mention a >window system, a window system/OS merge, a specification, and a toolkit + window >manager, respectively. The GUI is implemented by the applications running on a specific OS. But the applications, that are bundled with this OS, can show a lot of the GUI, the OS designer had in mind, when construction the OS. And a lots of the GUI is implemented in the kernel parts and not coded inside the applications. >Gee, I've gotten lots of work done with Athena & Xt clients for years. Xmeter >isn't hampered by not wasting half its area on shading; nor would that shading >help xpostit, xcalc, xkal, dclock, xpostage, or xterm. There is no need for any button, shade or anything else on output only applications like a perfmeter or a clock. You probably can see, that I am critical to all GUI implementations I have seen. And this is the point. We all know that 3D shades do nothing to make applications easier to use. But they do nothing to make them worse exept wasing some CPU power. But wasting CPU power is very popular :-). We should better discuss the thinks _missing_ in the widget sets and GUI implementations, because this can trigger someone to implement the things missing. And there are a lot things missing in almost every GUI I know, especially the ones we can use on unix boxes. Mario -- Mario Klebsch, DG1AM, mkl@rob.cs.tu-bs.de (49) 531 / 391 - 7457 Institut fuer Robotik und Prozessinformatik der TU Braunschweig Hamburger Strasse 267, 38114 Braunschweig, Germany ------------------------------ From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: 29 Nov 1993 19:55:39 GMT Brandon Allbery said: > It was only when someone decided to adopt the stupid > BSD "cat -n" nonsense that cat ended up being inefficient all the > time. And I said: >Anyway, GNU cat, when given no options (other than -u, --version, and. >--help) uses read and write with the optimal block size (as reported >by stat). And then in article <1993Nov24.150213.15443@kf8nh.wariat.org> bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) said: 4@kf8nh:501 B$ cat -? cat: illegal option -- ? Usage: cat [-benstuvAET] [--number] [--number-nonblank] [--squeeze-blank] [--show-nonprinting] [--show-ends] [--show-tabs] [--show-all] [file...] This "cat" claims to be from "GNU textutils version 1.3" (I had to use "strings|grep" because neither -V nor --version works). ...You were saying? Did you bother to read what I wrote? If you give no options but -u, --version or --help, then GNU cat uses the fast read/write with optimal block size algorithm. -- +1 617 623 3248 (H) | The soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, +1 617 253 8568 (W) -+- and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 1105 Broadway | Then Jonathan made a covenant with David Somerville, MA 02144 | because he loved him as his own soul. ------------------------------ From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: 29 Nov 1993 19:59:01 GMT In article richard@harlequin.co.uk (Richard Brooksby) writes: I find multi-volume IO very useful, for example. But don't add it to tar, dd, cpio, etc. Think first, and make a new tool for the purpose, and keep it simple. You apparently haven't thought about it at all. The reason that multi-volume support needs to be in tar is so that later volumes can be complete archives, and (except for the file split between volumes) can be read without needing context from a previous volume. If you just take the output of tar and split it into volumes (with, say, split) then you are more susceptible to failures. Unless, of course, you teach split about tar format. The same argument goes for cpio. I don't know of any multi-volume support in dd, nor any reason for it, nor any plans to add it. -- +1 617 623 3248 (H) | The soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, +1 617 253 8568 (W) -+- and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 1105 Broadway | Then Jonathan made a covenant with David Somerville, MA 02144 | because he loved him as his own soul. ------------------------------ From: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis") Subject: Re: ESC [ m (was Re: console.c questions) Reply-To: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (John E. Davis) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 20:05:45 GMT In article <1993Nov26.232428.27623@kf8nh.wariat.org> bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: >In article davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (John E. Davis) writes: >>program, for example. How can it be fixed so that the colors of the screen are >>properly restored when it exits? It gets its information from termcap and >>termcap says use ^[[m to turn off bold. > >The termcap entry is wrong. To turn off bold the sequence is \E[21m. The use >of \E[m is a "bug" which is propagated for compatibility with older programs. > >\E[21;22;24;25;27m turns off all attributes without affecting colors. > >Note also that terminfo specifically describes the "sgr0" capability as >resetting background and foreground colors to the default for the terminal, >so the behavior of \E[m is appropriate for "sgr0". ---But doesn't agree with >what most termcap-based programs expect for the equivalent operation. So, who is in charge of correcting the termcap entries for Linux? It seems that I now have to hardcode escape sequences into my programs. Also, is there anyway to get the default color settings? -- _____________ #___/John E. Davis\_________________________________________________________ # # internet: davis@amy.tch.harvard.edu # bitnet: davis@ohstpy # office: 617-735-6746 # ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) Subject: Re: Tough! Quit griping! Was: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Reply-To: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 20:23:03 GMT >>> On Mon, 29 Nov 1993 15:49:02 GMT, hallam@dxal18.cern.ch >>> (HALLAM-BAKER Phillip) said: HALLAM-BAKER> Releasing PD software has a hell of a lot more to it than HALLAM-BAKER> simply writing it. Exactly! ... HALLAM-BAKER> I think that the least users could do is to try to make HALLAM-BAKER> their comments constructive rather than destructive. ... and one such comment is: dear free sw developers, please don't use OSF Motif for any new programs you write: 1) There are complicated licensing issues that can cause problems to you or to us, and that reduce the potential for usefulness and widespread adoption of any free sw that depends on OSF/Motif. 2) There are free sw alternatives to OSF/Motif; among them Tcl/Tk, the favourite, and then Interviews and, even if disliked by many, XView. It's just not worth the trouble writing free sw that uses OSF/Motif. That's simple _and_ constructive. ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss From: eggert@twinsun.com (Paul Eggert) Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 19:51:35 GMT mathew@mantis.co.uk writes: > I would write a new diff program from scratch, which had a single > output format which was easy for humans to understand and for software > to auto-process. That wouldn't replace GNU diff, since GNU diff must be as compatible as possible with Posix, BSD, System V, Unix V7, etc. You are of course free to produce an incompatible program, but my advice is to call it something other than `diff'. > As to what a better output format would look like, here's one > possibility: it's output from PVCS's VDIFF program: Look in the GNU diff manual, under `Line Group Formats' and `Line Formats'; they should let you tailor your output along the lines you describe. Obviously, the default diff output format cannot satisfy everybody; so, for people like you that want some other format, GNU diff has some ``creeping features''. ------------------------------ From: ig25@fg30.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig) Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: 29 Nov 1993 20:42:09 GMT mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes: >The reason that >multi-volume support needs to be in tar is so that later volumes can >be complete archives, and (except for the file split between volumes) >can be read without needing context from a previous volume. >If you just take the output of tar and split it into volumes (with, >say, split) then you are more susceptible to failures. Unless, of >course, you teach split about tar format. What happens if a file is larger than available tape? MVS supports multivolume physical sequential datasets, i.e. one dataset (which normal people call file ;-) can extend over several disks or tapes. MVS also supports tape labeling, i.e. you can identify a tape to the operating system. Both can be very useful for backup, IMHO. -- Thomas Koenig, ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic diagram. ------------------------------ From: Troy Thoele Subject: Appletalk under LINUX? Date: 29 Nov 1993 20:54:01 GMT Greetings. I know this sounds like a stupid question, but does anybody know about a package that can turn a Linux machine into an Mac file server? I have 4 Appleshare file servers, and would like to replace them with my linux machine. If anybody knows of an appletalk-PC card driver for linux, I would like information on this as well. Sincerely, Troy Thoele Texas A & M University Learning Resources Department Evans Library tdt5238@zeus.tamu.edu ------------------------------ From: grante@hydro.rosemount.com (Grant Edwards) Subject: Re: [Q] Big modem installation for Linux? Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1993 20:21:54 GMT Edward O Quillen (quillen@hal.cvm.msu.edu) wrote: : Here at MSU we run Xylogic annex servers for modem access allowing : telnet,slip,ppp,... This is an ethernet solution and would only require : one card for the Linux machine. : The problem is the cost of the terminal servers. An 16 port MicroAnnex : costs around $1900. But 16 good modems cost a lot more than that. Not to mention the investment in time and effort to get some other home-brew scheme to work. If you've got the money to spend on a rack full of modems, you might as well do things right and buy a terminal server. -- Grant Edwards |Yow! CHUBBY CHECKER just had Rosemount Inc. |a CHICKEN SANDWICH in |downtown DULUTH! grante@rosemount.com | ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: ftlofaro@unlv.edu (Frank Lofaro) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 21:07:37 GMT In article aad@dvorak.amd.com (Anthony A. Datri) writes: > >One of things that bothers me about both 386BSD and Linux is that there appear >to be a near infinite number of variations, and nobody will so much as >explain what "SLS" is supposed to mean. > SLS -> Suckful Linux System (I hope that beast of a distribution finally bites it!) ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: ftlofaro@unlv.edu (Frank Lofaro) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Mon, 29 Nov 93 21:33:20 GMT In article gjunker@ddt.eng.uc.edu (Gregory Junker) writes: > >No (and you have most-likely already been through this), don't use Motif for >anything...It's > > - Ugly > - Slow > - Difficult (read impossible) to program > - Licensed > Just what "software engineering" types love! :~| >Why > - Does there need to be a workstation interface "standard" ? > - Does it need to be Motif (as it seems to be by default) > So OSF can make a load of money, at the expense of the users, of course! > >Maybe I'm just stupid for not buying into OSF's plan (and what's so >"open" about them anyway?) > Not much. They'd be more accurately called the Closed Software Foundation. >Just waiting for GNU to come out with an interface spec... :-) > >greg Ugh, a Motif clone would have to be horrid like the real thing. Also, it'd probably take hours to print out the docs! :~| ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: cflatter@nrao.edu (Chris Flatters) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: 29 Nov 1993 21:35:56 GMT In article gjunker@ddt.eng.uc.edu (Gregory Junker) writes: No (and you have most-likely already been through this), don't use Motif for anything...It's - Ugly Matter of opinion. Personally, I preferred OPEN LOOK but that war is over. - Slow Seems fast enough to me. - Difficult (read impossible) to program It has its eccentricities but its not significantly more difficult that any other X Window System widget set (and its much easier than programming MS Windows). - Licensed I'm not a fan of OSF's licensing terms either but it's a case of like it or lump it until someone comes up with an alternative implementation. Why - Does there need to be a workstation interface "standard" ? Do you really want to write n different versions of a program for n different workstations? Don't you like the programs on your screen to behave in a consistent manner? - Does it need to be Motif (as it seems to be by default) It didn't have to be: that's just the way things worked out. If you don't like that, you don't have to play ball. No one will break your fingers if you use the Athena widgets or XView or OLIT. No one is going to put a gun to your head and make you use any free software that is built using Motif if you don't want it. What's the big deal? Chris Flatters cflatter@nrao.edu ------------------------------ From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: 29 Nov 1993 21:35:47 GMT In article <2ddmr1$cp6@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> ig25@fg30.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig) writes: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes: >The reason that >multi-volume support needs to be in tar is so that later volumes can >be complete archives, and (except for the file split between volumes) >can be read without needing context from a previous volume. >If you just take the output of tar and split it into volumes (with, >say, split) then you are more susceptible to failures. Unless, of >course, you teach split about tar format. What happens if a file is larger than available tape? GNU tar currently doesn't make it easy to restore only a piece of a file, in this or any other case. So, you would need all the tapes with the file on it. But, if the media doesn't fail, then things work fine. This is just a case where GNU tar doesn't increase reliability. I posit that this is an extremely rare case. MVS also supports tape labeling, i.e. you can identify a tape to the operating system. As does GNU tar; see the --label option. -- +1 617 623 3248 (H) | The soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, +1 617 253 8568 (W) -+- and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 1105 Broadway | Then Jonathan made a covenant with David Somerville, MA 02144 | because he loved him as his own soul. ------------------------------ From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: 29 Nov 1993 21:37:34 GMT In article <2ddjqv$bb1@vanbc.wimsey.com> markh@vanbc.wimsey.com (Mark C. Henderson) writes: Consider that one probably won't be able to use the GNU libraries for projects that are politically incorrect according to the FSF standard of political correctness. For libraries which are released under the LGPL (into which category GMP does not fall), these concerns utterly vanish. As an example, consider a project which involved the linking of the GNU libraries to licenced (patented!) cryptographic technology like RSA. In some ways, libraries which cost $$$ are cheaper. One might even argue that they give one more freedom. They give you more freedom in just the same way a weapon can give you more freedom to steal from your neighbors. -- +1 617 623 3248 (H) | The soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, +1 617 253 8568 (W) -+- and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 1105 Broadway | Then Jonathan made a covenant with David Somerville, MA 02144 | because he loved him as his own soul. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Development-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.development) via: Internet: Linux-Development@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Development Digest ******************************