From: Digestifier To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Fri, 26 Nov 93 15:13:11 EST Subject: Linux-Development Digest #263 Linux-Development Digest #263, Volume #1 Fri, 26 Nov 93 15:13:11 EST Contents: Source sizes (Paul L Schauble) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Paul Eggert) crap xconfig comments (Brett Person) Re: Free Software and Motif (was: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw:...) (Mike Hopkirk) Re: Difference between cua and ttyS (Mark A. Horton) Re: console.c questions (Brandon S. Allbery) ESC [ m (was Re: console.c questions) ("John E. Davis") Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Mario Klebsch DG1AM) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Mario Klebsch DG1AM) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Peter Mutsaers) Re: Comments from the "TAMU Crap" author (Rene COUGNENC) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pls@shell.portal.com (Paul L Schauble) Subject: Source sizes Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 06:55:22 GMT I'm planning a computer system and will want to have Lunix, with source, Xfree, and a reasonable set of development tools available. How much disk space should I have? ++PLS ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss From: eggert@twinsun.com (Paul Eggert) Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 07:03:17 GMT richard@harlequin.co.uk (Richard Brooksby) writes: >haley@scws6.harvard.edu (Elizabeth Haley) wrote: >> I'm sure most of us have >> seen programs that were once simple and efficient, that later became >> complex behemoths, possesing perhaps much power, but being quite slow >> about the functions they originally performed... > My complaint is that the GNU project is _accelerating_ this process by > producing old tools with many, many, new `enhancements'. Stop it! Have you thought through your request? Let's take a specific example: GNU diff. It has many features that traditional diff doesn't. Which of these features would you remove, and why? ------------------------------ From: person@plains.NoDak.edu (Brett Person) Subject: crap xconfig comments Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 07:15:58 GMT Well, I've never seen a monitor get fried by teeaking with the monitor settings. I have seen OS/2 and other pieces of software do this trick to calc frequencies. Under this logic, we should all quit using OS/2 and Windows. -- Brett Person North Dakota State University person@plains.nodak.edu || person@plains.bitnet ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: hops@x.co.uk (Mike Hopkirk) Subject: Re: Free Software and Motif (was: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw:...) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 10:58:10 GMT >>>>> On 25 Nov 1993 16:55:04 GMT, john@hopf.math.nwu.edu (John Franks) said: jf> NNTP-Posting-Host: hopf.math.nwu.edu jf> In article hops@x.co.uk (Mike Hopkirk) writes: > >Darrel Crow OSF/Motif Technology manager just posted a human readable >clarification of the Motif 2.0 licensing to the motif-talk mailing list >( If it doesn't get out to the newsgroup I'll see if its ok to repost it ) I mailed Darrel Crowe yesterday suggesting he post his clarification doc to comp.windows.motif - hopefully it'll show up soon. > >Following is ( I hope ) a precis of the main points of his posting vis a vis >PD/Freely distributed (binary) software( emphasises and errors omissions >are mine ). > jf> ... Precis omitted ... jf> If this account is accurate it is very disturbing. It says that NCSA jf> is not complying with their license when they distribute Xmosaic jf> statically linked binaries without a notice that users are required to jf> have a Motif license. Thats my understanding ( assuming they have a limited distrib or educational license - if they've got a full distrib license everythings peachy ) jf>They can comply by including such a license, jf> but anyone who uses such a binary on a computer without a Motif jf> license will be liable to suit by OSF. The fact that NCSA has an jf> educational license is only relevant for their INTERNAL use. Yeah. jf> In particular, academic and commercial institutions who are very careful jf> about subjecting themselves to liability will be unwilling to use jf> Xmosaic on any CPU without a Motif license. If by 'use' you mean 'install' by the licensing agreement they should not do so. jf> This must include nearly all Suns in existence today. Err no, ( maybe at Uni sites tho ) Still, End user Motif packs are relatively (?) cheap and you get a license whenever you buy one. Quantity purchasers will get price breaks depending on the number they buy ( and it may be that its cheaper to extend and existing Site/Educational license or something ) In the UK, academic institutions can join the CHEST scheme and for a ( fixed ?) yearly fee get unlimited licenses. I believe Sun are negotiating with OSF for a platform license after which case you will be able install any motif linked app on the platform they've paid for. ( same as for IBM and HP platforms now ). Its not ideal but it seems reasonably fair. -- Everything disclaimed (including disclaimer) ======< hops@x.co.uk >======< hops@ixi.uucp >======< ...!uunet!ixi!hops >==== Mike Hopkirk ( hops ) | Whenever possible steal code. IXI Ltd ! Tom Duffy. Bell Labs ------------------------------ From: mahmha@crl.com (Mark A. Horton) Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin Subject: Re: Difference between cua and ttyS Date: 26 Nov 1993 04:15:30 -0800 hph@hphbbs.E.open.DE wrote: : In article 93Nov7222819@dynamo.dyndata.com, dan@dynamo.dyndata.com (Dan Everhart) writes: : > This seems like an obvious question, but I don't find a definitive : > description in any of the docs. : > : > What exactly is the difference between /dev/ttyS and /dev/cua? : > I.e. device majors 4 and 5. : > : > In the course of reading c.o.l.* over the weeks I've seen people : > having problems with a tty advised to try using the cua instead, as well as : > the converse, and "see if that fixes it". :-) : > : > Since I am frequently plugging one serial thing into another, I'd like : > to operate from a position of knowledge rather than trial and error - : > so can anyone provide a thorough and correct description of the : > difference between these two devices? : > : > -- : > _ : > / \_ Dan Everhart / Dyndata Engineering dan@dyndata.com : > \_/ \_________________________________________ 206-743-6982, 742-8604 (fax) : > / \_/ 7107 179th St SW : > \_/ Quality Software and Hardware Consulting Edmonds, WA 98026, USA : I just want to underpin this request. I asked the very question a : couple of times but noone could give a resonable answer about this : topic. Instead I recently got a getty-implementation in my hands, : where was said: : "... on LINUX use the ttyS-devices not the cua-devices. No, I'm not : willing to disuss this here ..." : Just great! The whole thing did not work with ttyS-devices at all -- : but is working just fine with a cua-device now ... bewildering! : "Undocumented software is shitware!" : The point is that the manual section 4 (devices) is nearly empty. It : seems that people who write device drivers think, that they did a : great job, when their driver is doing fine just FOR THEM and some : others who could follow the development -- others are kept standing : in the rain! : Listen all you guys out there, who provide us with software of any : kind for LINUX: We (the community) can't read your brains. So you got : to write it down, what you indented with your code, its implemetation : and the way it is to be integrated. : If there is anything wrong with LINUX, it is its documentation. : - where are the man-pages fd(4), hd(4), sd(4), rmt(4) etc.? : - where is explained that LINUX does not know 'raw'-disks and why? : (a.s.o, a.s.o) : Not a single piece of everything that can be found in /dev is : documented in any way. In this respect LINUX can drive you mad : sometimes. No I'm not asking to make LINUX foolproof. : "One can't make things foolproof, since fools are so genious" : (Murphy) : I'm just asking for keeping me from asking stupid questions or : digging for answers in HOWTOs and FAQs where the answer often : cannot be found. What LINUX heavily need is a 'm'-set of disks, : which keeps traditional man-pages for everything in the system. : : Regards, Peter : -- : ####################===============================**************************** : # H.P. Heidinger # Call : +49-201-287433 (data) * ~~ HPHBBS ~~ * : # Steeler Str. 121 # : V22/32/42bis/FAX, 8N1 * UseNet City-Router * : # 45138 Essen # E-Mail: hph@hphbbs.E.open.de * for Essen/Germany * Perhaps this is an avenue you have already explored, but have you retrieved the man pages from sunsite.unc.edu in /pub/Linux/docs/LDP ? I have found this and the LDP publications a very very good source of information and IMHO, far better written than the documentation produced by some commercial Unix vendors for their high priced and (again IMHO) less functional *nix implementations. But then, if one pays $5000.00 or more for a *nix system then one also purchases the privilege to complain about the documentation? I personally LIKE having the source to go to to find out what's really going on and where I have misinterpreted something! To all the developers and LDPers goes my unending praise and respect for their knowledge and efforts. It is most appreciated. Sincerely, Mark -- Mark A. Horton ka4ybr mah@ka4ybr.atl.ga.us mah@ka4ybr.com P.O.Box 747 Decatur GA US 30031-0747 ICBM: 33 45 N / 084 16 W +1.404.371.0291 Cruise: 33 45 30 N / 084 16 50 W "We may note that, for the purposes of these experiments, the symbol "=" has the meaning "may be confused with." ------------------------------ From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) Subject: Re: console.c questions Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 12:35:48 GMT In article davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (John E. Davis) writes: > >> I would prefer it it ESC [ m just turns off highlighting/bold/underlining > >>and leaves the colors alone. > > > >There are a lot of things that would be more convenient about attribute > >control in ANSI terminals, but alaa, it is a bit late to change them :-) > >Perhaps, but I wonder how many problems one would encounter if the >interpretation of just this particular escape sequence were changed. Just enough to break things... I've seen it happen. Some color terminals *do* do it that way... and some broken programs assume the terminal does it that way... and *both* have resulted in garbled screens. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca ------------------------------ From: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis") Subject: ESC [ m (was Re: console.c questions) Reply-To: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (John E. Davis) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 17:44:33 GMT In article <1993Nov26.123548.25876@kf8nh.wariat.org> bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: In article davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu (John E. Davis) writes: > >> I would prefer it it ESC [ m just turns off highlighting/bold/underlining > >>and leaves the colors alone. [...] >Just enough to break things... I've seen it happen. Some color terminals *do* >do it that way... and some broken programs assume the terminal does it that >way... and *both* have resulted in garbled screens. But how can a program do the *right* thing? Is there an ESC sequence that returns the default attributes? Take `less', `most', or any other paging program, for example. How can it be fixed so that the colors of the screen are properly restored when it exits? It gets its information from termcap and termcap says use ^[[m to turn off bold. -- _____________ #___/John E. Davis\_________________________________________________________ # # internet: davis@amy.tch.harvard.edu # bitnet: davis@ohstpy # office: 617-735-6746 # ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: mkl@rob.cs.tu-bs.de (Mario Klebsch DG1AM) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 18:25:18 GMT aad@dvorak.amd.com (Anthony A. Datri) writes: >>find the motif look and feel to be "cheesy" sometimes. (twm {does this use the >>Athena widgets?} is nicer than mwm, as far a I'm concerned). >twm is Xt-based: ><=>lovecraft<=>ldd `which twm` > -lXmu.4 => /usr/local/lib/x11r5/lib/libXmu.so.4.10 > -lXt.4 => /usr/local/lib/x11r5/lib/libXt.so.4.10 > -lXext.4 => /usr/local/lib/x11r5/lib/libXext.so.4.10 > -lX11.4 => /usr/local/lib/x11r5/lib/libX11.so.4.10 > -lc.1 => /usr/lib/libc.so.1.8 > -ldl.1 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.1.0 Do you see any line like -lXaw.5 => /usr/X11R5/lib/libXaw.so.5.0 ? So you see, twm does not use Atena Widgets. The real Problem is _NOT_ using Motif or Xaw. Motif offers the minimum of a GUI consistence, Xaw is small and fast, but there is not a trace of the consistence, that make a GUI easy to use. Take a look at several Xaw applications. There is a horrible mix of concepts, how to use these programs. If these programs have a menu bar, sometimes there are single buttons in it, sometimes there are pulldown menus. If you take a look on xfig, you can see an application, which is not intuitive to use at all. There are no selection tools, but all the editing funtions are implemented modal (like in ACAD). Who the hell should know how to use this application? This is _not_ only the fault of the programmer of xfig, but also the fault of the missing toolkit concepts we (the programmers) can follow. The are e.g. Open Look Application Style Guidelines, that describe the concepts to follow when building an application. The knowledge of these concepts, which are almost the same on _all_ GUI's including MS-Windows, Macintosh, Openlook and Motif, is not as known to the programmers as the knowledge how to produce a window with buttons in in. The only think I can hope for is the inclusion of an usable widget set or class library in a future release of X. Mario P.S. I know a lot of people who are using xfig. So I know, this program is not useless. -- Mario Klebsch, DG1AM, mkl@rob.cs.tu-bs.de (49) 531 / 391 - 7457 Institut fuer Robotik und Prozessinformatik der TU Braunschweig Hamburger Strasse 267, 38114 Braunschweig, Germany ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: mkl@rob.cs.tu-bs.de (Mario Klebsch DG1AM) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 18:32:43 GMT mjr@syl.dl.nec.com (Matt Ranney) writes: >Do they really? How much more? I thought that the only difference in >memory usage between using shared and static libs was roughly the size >of the .sa file. Is this incorrect? Well, it is about the difference between the libxx.sa.y.z and libxx.a files. But there are lots of symbols in these files. So you have to cut of these symbols when you want to compare. Mario -- Mario Klebsch, DG1AM, mkl@rob.cs.tu-bs.de (49) 531 / 391 - 7457 Institut fuer Robotik und Prozessinformatik der TU Braunschweig Hamburger Strasse 267, 38114 Braunschweig, Germany ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 21:10:55 GMT >> On 23 Nov 1993 04:20:45 GMT, shane@nugget.spr.com (Shane Hartman) >> said: > The third point is difficult-to-impossible with commercial software. > With free software, it's *always* possible, and most often very easy. SH> Yeah, right. That's great for those of us with the skill and time to SH> do this. I just love getting new releases of emacs and debugging it SH> (again) on three platforms. Makes my day. Of people who do serious software development one should expect this skill. Time may be a problem, but waiting 6 months for the next release also costs a lot of time, and working around irritating known bugs too. SH> not). NCSA's decision is quite reasonable from a software developer's SH> viewpoint (especially one that isn't paid). If you guys don't like SH> it, then write your own frigging browser using whatever libraries you SH> choose. Personally, I would rather spend $400 to buy Motif than spend SH> a month or so writing a browser to another API. My time is worth more SH> than $400 a month. Isn't it ironic that prices of the OS are dropping, but soon everyone will be forced to spend more money on a tiny part of the system, the Motif widget set, than on the rest of the GUI (the rest of X11 is free) and even than on the rest of the operating system. I think this is unacceptable. For large institutions and companies, who used to be the traditional users of Unix/X11, this $400 doesn't make much difference; but for the mass market for personal use it does. If you want to see MS-DOS etc. replaced by an open operating system then a (commercial) Motif cannot be part of it. This might cause a market-failure for desktop Unix and thus give leave the desktop to MS-Windows or its descendants while there is a real chance now to change this. -- _______________________________________________________________ Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands. ------------------------------ From: rene@renux.frmug.fr.net (Rene COUGNENC) Subject: Re: Comments from the "TAMU Crap" author Date: 26 Nov 1993 16:55:19 GMT Ce brave Michaela Merz ecrit: > On Thu, 25 Nov 1993 15:19:19 GMT, dwex@aib.com (David E. Wexelblat) wrote: > I'm a system- and networkprogrammer. I'm not to deep in graphics - so my > question would be: Where is the problem to start X and use cursor up > or cursor down until there is a usable picture? > Like tuning in a tv channel ... ? This is the good point of view. If an electronic set (Monitor, Video generator, washing-machine 10 BogoMips), made to be used by any end-user, can be destroyed just because you turned the wrong switch, then it is ill-designed. If, for example, the components of an oscillator may burn over some frequency, then first this oscillator should not be adjustable to it, and even if it is, some protection must stop the power before any problem occur. That is just how, more than 20 years ago, I have been teached electronics engineering... Things have changed now... Good things: We have fantastic integrated circuits. Bad things: There are more and more Mac Donald's "restaurants" here France :-)) Imagine your TV-set destroyed just because you tried to display an NTSC video tape on a PAL monitor: This is what happens^H^H^H^H^H may happen whith XFree86, and the PC-Compatible hardware. Translate this to a software point of view: Imagine a function to get characters from the keyboard in your program, allowing to enter some values which makes your program hang... XFree86 is a really great software. The Tamu Xconfig file is an intelligent approach for helping people to get XFree working. In my opinion, neither the people from the XFree86 team, neither the people from the Tamu config are responsible for destroying any hardware. Ok, I know that the kind of software programming done whith the video cards in XFree is like adjusting whith a screwdriver or a soldering iron, on the other hand. Don't start a big thread and don't flame me by mail, It costs me a lot of money... I just wanted to say that most of us accept 'hardware bugs' which are never discussed, in the equipment we all PAY, and at the opposite we blame the FREE software authors as soon as we don't like something in their work... BTW, this thread should be moved in a more appropriate newsgroup I think now... -- linux linux linux linux -[ cougnenc@renux.frmug.fr.net ]- linux linux linux ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Development-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.development) via: Internet: Linux-Development@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Development Digest ******************************