From: Digestifier To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Wed, 24 Nov 93 06:13:06 EST Subject: Linux-Development Digest #255 Linux-Development Digest #255, Volume #1 Wed, 24 Nov 93 06:13:06 EST Contents: 3780 emulation anybody? (Several species of small furry animals. . .) What's happening with PCMCIA? (Michael Hirsch) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Kjetil Torgrim Homme) Re: [Q] Big modem installation for Linux? (Scarrow) Re: Bug report (Brandon S. Allbery) Re: 1542B and DSP3160 bad I/O Performance (Piercarlo Grandi) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Brandon S. Allbery) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Jan Newmarch) Linux and Notebook Hotkeys (David Megginson) Bug Report (.99.13q) (Gregory Gulik) POP-2 Client (BARRY TITMARSH) Re: 1542B and DSP3160 bad I/O Performance (Harald Milz) Re: How many BogoMips on a washing machine? (Harald Milz) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Michael A. Irons) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Anders Thulin) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Rafal Boni) serial line problem with linux 0.99.13 (Gerry Gucher) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Elizabeth Haley) Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Michael I Bushnell) Socket implementation in Linux 0.99pl13, Fred ! (Steven Buytaert) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: 3780 emulation anybody? From: nmspillers@ualr.edu (Several species of small furry animals. . .) Date: 23 Nov 93 11:26:51 CST Ok, Quick question folks, I am looking for something that will allow me to support call-ins and dial-outs for synchronous 3780 protocol (EBCDIC). Yes, I know this is a weird one, but the office is considering using a linux box to automate transmission of batches to an IBM, and that's the only thing that can be used--can anybody help? nate nmspillers@ualr.edu ------------------------------ From: hirsch@mathcs.emory.edu (Michael Hirsch) Subject: What's happening with PCMCIA? Date: 23 Nov 1993 18:04:53 GMT Is there any active development for PCMCIA cards? I would like to use a PCMCIA modem on my notebook with linux. I assum this can be done but special drivers are needed. Is anyone working on this? What is the status? Thanks, -- Michael Hirsch Work: (404) 727-7940 Emory University, Atlanta, GA 30322 FAX: (404) 727-5611 Internet: hirsch@mathcs.emory.edu BITNET: hirsch@emory.bitnet UUCP: {rutgers,gatech}!emory!hirsch Public key for encrypted mail available upon request. ------------------------------ From: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme) Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: 23 Nov 1993 21:59:36 +0100 I wrote: > for i in `yes "" | cat -n | head -100`; do ... Richard Brooksby: > I hope you don't write this sort of thing _and_ complain about the > speed and memory requirements of other people's software. Do you think 100 expr's (and 100 test's as well if you are using Ultrix) is more efficient? (Yes, I hear you, use Perl.) > Look, I don't think cat -n is stupid for aesthetic reasons. It's > stupid because it signifcantly complicates the operation of cat. > Unless you foolishly write cat as line-in line-out (or even, horrors, > char-in char-out) then cat -n is an entirely different program to cat! (and that's essentially how GNU cat is implemented) Granted, but your optimal cat won't be cat! Actually, I'd be more concerned about the -e and -v switches if I were you. And -n comes from BSD, not GNU. Design your own set of disparate/disjunct programs and release them. Don't expect us to suffer incompatibilities due to aesthetic reasons (yes, I _do_ think that's what they are). [ My goodness, soon I'll be extolling MSDOS' backwards-compatibility... ] Kjetil T. ------------------------------ From: bairds@penchiss10.ee.pdx.edu (Scarrow) Subject: Re: [Q] Big modem installation for Linux? Date: 23 Nov 1993 13:38:47 -0800 joel@rac6.wam.umd.edu (Joel M. Hoffman) writes: >Why only eight? I'm currently using two modems and a serial line, >having told one of the modems to use com3 (I forget which int.) So at >least 24 should be possible, and probably 32. No? Keep in mind that 24 ports would take up 6 card slots and 32 would take up 8 card slots. For example, on the 386 here at work we have 6 card slots total, so a good maximum is really about 16 lines (with another slot for a multi-I/O card and yet another slot for the monitor). It should be possible to design cards that would handle, say, 8 lines per slot, but from what I've seen they typically use 4. Depends a lot on the external connectors, too. The mini- dins used by my current card really couldn't squeeze 8 onto a single slot. Someone said that used terminal servers aren't too bad nowadays. I'm looking at setting up a private network (probably starting with only around 4 to 8 lines, but eventually hoping to get bigger) and am wondering how cheap is cheap? :) -- Shawn L. Baird (Scarrow) | "By all means, take the moral high ground -- bairds@ursula.ee.pdx.edu | all that heavenly backlighting makes you a =========================| much easier target." ==Solomon Short ------------------------------ From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) Subject: Re: Bug report Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 23:20:43 GMT In article <1993Nov23.152908.16957@excaliber.uucp> joel@rac4.wam.umd.edu (Joel M. Hoffman) writes: >>> I'm terribly sorry, but what should I use instead? I'm rather fond of >>> this "trick": >>> for i in `yes "" | cat -n | head -100`; do ... > >Thinking this was a nice trick I'd never thought of before, I tried >it, and it does count to 100. But then I tried: > > for i in `yes "*" | cat -n | head -100`; do echo $i ; done > >just for the hell of it, and bash >crashed.< It gave me a fatal error >(1), and then core dumped and I got a login prompt again. It's expanding 100 "*" wildcards as the list for "for"... ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca ------------------------------ From: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) Subject: Re: 1542B and DSP3160 bad I/O Performance Reply-To: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 00:23:16 GMT >>> On Tue, 23 Nov 1993 15:45:20 GMT, rob@pe1chl.ampr.org (Rob Janssen) >>> said: Rob> Look in the .../BETA/scsi directory on most mirrors to find recent Rob> things. Eric Youngdale has, after I started the discussion for Rob> what was probably the 25th time, done some real research on this Rob> and has constructed some patches to improve the transfer block size Rob> by clustering. Eric Youngdale has done some real coding; the real research was done well over thirty years ago. It was (re)discussed recently in comp.arch.storage. Do you want a repost of that thread? (I am going to get it from my home archive for some guy who wants a copy...). ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 02:33:07 GMT In article <2cttjo$6mu@bera.ifi.uio.no> kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme) writes: >> Look, I don't think cat -n is stupid for aesthetic reasons. It's >> stupid because it signifcantly complicates the operation of cat. >> Unless you foolishly write cat as line-in line-out (or even, horrors, >> char-in char-out) then cat -n is an entirely different program to cat! > >(and that's essentially how GNU cat is implemented) > >Granted, but your optimal cat won't be cat! Actually, I'd be more Says who?! Where I come from, cat did block-by-block copies using stdio; cat -u did block-by-block copies using read()/write() (and was so much more efficient that I got into the habit of using -u always; some versions of cat avoided stdio altogether and simply ignored -u). It was only when someone decided to adopt the stupid BSD "cat -n" nonsense that cat ended up being inefficient all the time. [[sarcasm on]] But then, since BSD did it it's obviously both "oh-so-true Unix" and the only correct way to do it. [[sarcasm off]] ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: jan@pandonia.canberra.edu.au (Jan Newmarch) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: 24 Nov 93 02:32:36 GMT In <1993Nov23.152012.34607@rchland.ibm.com> shmdgljd@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Jay Schmidgall) writes: >Too bad the X Consortium just doesn't bundle tcl/tk with the X distribution >like it does with the Athena widgets. Then it could just be up to the >vendor as to whether or not they are supplied on that platform, just like >it is now with the Athena widgets. Perhaps they won't because there is no Imakefile... Anyway, they are in the contrib directory of ftp.x.org just like other packages, and presumably will be in the next set of contrib tapes whenever they are produced. -- Jan Newmarch, Information Science and Engineering, University of Canberra, PO Box 1, Belconnen, Act 2616 Australia. Tel: (Aust) 6-2012422. Fax: (Aust) 6-2015041 AARnet: jan@ise.canberra.edu.au ------------------------------ From: dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca (David Megginson) Subject: Linux and Notebook Hotkeys Date: 23 Nov 93 22:04:28 I am currently running Linux 99.12 on an MSDOS-free Samsung NoteMaster 386SX/25e and have been happily through quite a few kernel revisions. I was wondering, however, what Linux does to make all of the special buttons on my system stop working? For example, there is a button near the power switch which puts the notebook into SUSPEND mode -- it works while LILO is waiting for input, but then stops as soon as LILO begins loading Linux (even before the kernel is uncompressed). Is LILO at fault? I know that this feature is built right into the BIOS, since there is no DOS on my system to use it, and it works fine immediately after LILO has started. Does Linux bypass the BIOS? Some of the special buttons seem to work (ie. the simulated internal mouse), but most (ie. switching from CRT to LCD) do not. I am no Intel hacker -- my previous system-level experience is with an Atari ST -- and would be grateful for any information or advice on this subject David M. -- --- David Megginson Department of English, University of Ottawa, dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA K1N 6N5 dmeggins@acadvm1.uottawa.ca Phone: (613) 564-6850 (Office) ak117@freenet.carleton.ca (613) 564-9175 (FAX) ------------------------------ From: greg@serveme.chi.il.us (Gregory Gulik) Subject: Bug Report (.99.13q) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 00:32:16 GMT I'm running .99.13q and there seems to be a problem with the system clock. After approximately 24 hours, the system clock slows down about 40%. The sytem clock is accurate for the first 24 hours. I did not see this problem in versions prior to .99.13 -greg -- Gregory A. Gulik Call Gagme, a public access greg@gagme.chi.il.us UNIX system at 312-282-8606 || gulik@rtsg.mot.com For information, send E-mail to info@gagme.chi.il.us ------------------------------ From: BTITMARS@ESOC.BITNET (BARRY TITMARSH) Subject: POP-2 Client Date: 24 Nov 93 03:37:59 GMT Any one developed a pop-2 client ?? i have one for POP-3 to save me some re programing work any one got the same but for POP-2 proto. thanks. ------------------------------ From: hm@seneca.ix.de (Harald Milz) Subject: Re: 1542B and DSP3160 bad I/O Performance Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 07:53:17 GMT Reply-To: hm@seneca.ix.de RAINER SCHIELE INFORMATIK (81264@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de) wrote: : > I have a 1.6 GB DEC Harddisk and the Adaptec 1542B and i have only 800kb : > read performance(the disk have normal over 4MB disk I/O). Is this the result : > of using the Adaptec in asynchronus Mode. Give it a way to switch to : > synchron mode in the kernel. Give it a way to switch to higher DMA Speeds on : > the Adaptec(Sotfware). Is the 1542b driver going to use the synchron mode in : > the Future I have the same problem with the same configuration. However, I suspect that the slow buffer cache in pre-0.99pl13q (at least) kernels is guilty as well. As far as the Adaptec is concerned, I think that it should start synchronuous transfer as soon as the appropriate jumper is set. At least I didn't find any hint in the ~/scsi-sources. Eric ? Ciao, hm -- Harald Milz (hm@seneca.ix.de) ------------------------------ From: hm@seneca.ix.de (Harald Milz) Subject: Re: How many BogoMips on a washing machine? Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 07:58:46 GMT Reply-To: hm@seneca.ix.de Charles Hedrick (hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu) wrote: : > wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius) writes: : > >I really wish I had a way to record and digitize the evil laughter that : > >Linus emits every time he starts reading comp.os.linux.development (and : > >.misc) and sees that the BogoMips threads still continue. : > I would be the last to deprive Linux of any source of amusement. : > However I think it's useful to tabulate the expected bogomips for each : > processor type and speed. I think one of reasons to continue printing OK, but as stated earlier in this group, the issue was discussed already in c.o.l.m. There were lots of figures until the thread vanished without anybody having made an attempt to collect and summarize them. c.o.l.d. is for sure not the right group to discuss this. So please stop it. Ciao, hm -- Harald Milz (hm@seneca.ix.de) ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x From: mirons@icarus.ci.net (Michael A. Irons) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 23:18:28 GMT Out of curiosity, what does this have to do about Linux kernel development? Stuff like this belongs in C.O.L.misc, not here -- Mike Irons mirons@Icarus.CI.NET ------------------------------ From: ath@linkoping.trab.se (Anders Thulin) Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: 23 Nov 93 08:24:28 GMT In article aad@dvorak.amd.com (Anthony A. Datri) writes: > >I predict that the same thing will happen [with CDE] as has happened with "DCE". It will >be so expensive that nobody will buy it, and it will be similarly ignored. CDE will probably be optional the first year or so. But once it has stabilized, it's a no-win to have two lines of development: one for CDE and one for . I would expect the main CDE developers (Sun, HP, IBM, SCO, Novell/USL) will standardize on CDE, and make their current desktops/environments optional, unsupported software. -- Anders Thulin ath@linkoping.trab.se 013-23 55 32 Telia Research AB, Teknikringen 2B, S-583 30 Linkoping, Sweden ------------------------------ From: rkb55989@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Rafal Boni) Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: 24 Nov 1993 07:40:34 GMT bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: [ranting about felines deleted] >[[sarcasm on]] But then, since BSD did it it's obviously both "oh-so-true >Unix" and the only correct way to do it. [[sarcasm off]] [[junk on]] .-5,.-4s/BSD/SunOS/g Since the BSD folk all want to think SunOS the standard by which all should be judged ;> [And yes, that's pre SysV SunOS, BTW] [[junk off]] >++Brandon >-- >Brandon S. Allbery kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org >"MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years >of careful development." ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca Gees... Somebody has to bring the "but that OS should be used as a comparison for all others, and since it does real-time scheduling and since this one doesn't, this obviously isn't a good OS" thing up at least once a week... --rafal ------------------------------ From: gegu@zurich.spectrospin.ch (Gerry Gucher) Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.misc Subject: serial line problem with linux 0.99.13 Date: 23 Nov 93 22:34:26 GMT Hello Folks, I recently updated from Linux 0.99.8 to kernel 0.99.13. Compilation and installation worked fine, but I found out that my serial line cua1 where the modem is attached does not work. The mouse works fine however. When I try to cu or kermit, it always says 'all ports busy'. There is no lock file in /usr/spool/uucp and with the old kernel it works fine. I would be glad for any hint. Please respond by e-mail too (gegu@spectrospin.ch) , it seems that our news installation is currently a bit confused. I currently don't get any linux news. Thanks, Gerry ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) From: haley@scws6.harvard.edu (Elizabeth Haley) Date: 24 Nov 93 07:45:59 GMT kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme) writes: >I wrote: >> for i in `yes "" | cat -n | head -100`; do ... >Richard Brooksby: >> I hope you don't write this sort of thing _and_ complain about the >> speed and memory requirements of other people's software. >Do you think 100 expr's (and 100 test's as well if you are using >Ultrix) is more efficient? (Yes, I hear you, use Perl.) or C... if it is often used, and speed critical, it doesn't belong in shell scripts for end use. >Granted, but your optimal cat won't be cat! Actually, I'd be more >concerned about the -e and -v switches if I were you. And -n comes >from BSD, not GNU. Regardless the -n option has a tenuous place, given the original design philosophy. The other options of cat deal mainly with how characters are displayed, which is basically reasonable. I might have a small dispute about the blank line compression, but that can be done with a minimum of additional coding. Anyway, the cat -n example was just that: an example. It was not suggested that cat -n was GNU's doing, we were talking about tar-1.11.2 >Design your own set of disparate/disjunct programs and release >them. Don't expect us to suffer incompatibilities due to aesthetic >reasons (yes, I _do_ think that's what they are). Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't the line numbering option quite new? I certainly don't remember it from other systems I have worked on, though most of those have been SYS V/BSD hybrids, so I might have been looking at the wrong one... Also, I question that it is just aesthetics. I'm sure most of us have seen programs that were once simple and efficient, that later became complex behemoths, possesing perhaps much power, but being quite slow about the functions they originally performed... To extend an analogy, adding the line counting option to cat is like installing a line paiting rig on a corvette. It's a great car, and it's still fast, but when you turn on the line-sprayer, you have to slow a bit so the paint is thick enough. Admittedly, cat -n is probably much faster than pr -n or something with expr, but again, C... You raise a bit of a valid point though... I have often thought it would be nice if there was a {for i in 1...100} sort of construct, for creating and numbering files. Is there a way I have missed, aside of the yes|cat|head trick? -- Hacksaw ------------------------------ From: mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) Date: 24 Nov 1993 09:00:28 GMT In article <1993Nov24.023307.12419@kf8nh.wariat.org> bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: Says who?! Where I come from, cat did block-by-block copies using stdio; cat -u did block-by-block copies using read()/write() (and was so much more efficient that I got into the habit of using -u always; some versions of cat avoided stdio altogether and simply ignored -u). It was only when someone decided to adopt the stupid BSD "cat -n" nonsense that cat ended up being inefficient all the time. [[sarcasm on]] But then, since BSD did it it's obviously both "oh-so-true Unix" and the only correct way to do it. [[sarcasm off]] You are all clearly talking through your, uhh, never mind. Anyway, GNU cat, when given no options (other than -u, --version, and. --help) uses read and write with the optimal block size (as reported by stat). And, in fact, so did BSD cat. -- +1 617 623 3248 (H) | The soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, +1 617 253 8568 (W) -+- and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 1105 Broadway | Then Jonathan made a covenant with David Somerville, MA 02144 | because he loved him as his own soul. ------------------------------ From: buytaert@imec.be (Steven Buytaert) Subject: Socket implementation in Linux 0.99pl13, Fred ! Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 09:03:32 GMT Hello, I was scratching on the surface of my knowledge about sockets. Last night, I tried something out and have some remarks from that experience... A few notes, maybe the author(s) can give comments on this, I have especially Fred Van Kempen in mind. His initials were on the man pages. 1) In netdb.h *and* in the man pages, the gethostbyaddr is described to take as a first parameter, const char *addr Now, for the call gethostbyname, this looks OK for me. I *could* be wrong, but isn't this supposed to be, const struct in_addr* for the first parameter ? 2) In fact, I was trying to get the socket++1.5 library going on Linux, after some minor changes (not having gnu 2.5.x library yet...) and the change in the netdb.h file as described in 1), all compiled flawlesly. During testphase however, 2 system calls seemed to be missing: recvmsg sendmsg Questions are, will they eventualy be implemented and in what timeframe? Is there a way to work around these calls with functions which are indeed implemented? I did notice in the manpages that Fred wrote that it (recvmsg...) currently applied only to BSD, as of Linux 0.99pl11 this was still not implemented. If someone could shed some light on this, that would be nice... -- Steven Buytaert Interuniversity Micro Electronics Centre - Invomec Division Kapeldreef 75, 3001 Heverlee, BELGIUM phone : +32 16 281 271 fax : +32 16 281 584 e-mail : buytaert@imec.be In case of danger, BREAK glass ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Development-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.development) via: Internet: Linux-Development@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Development Digest ******************************