From: Digestifier To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Mon, 22 Nov 93 23:13:24 EST Subject: Linux-Development Digest #250 Linux-Development Digest #250, Volume #1 Mon, 22 Nov 93 23:13:24 EST Contents: Re: How many BogoMips on a washing machine? (Curt Sampson) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Amancio Hasty Jr) Linux and Mach 3.0 (Louis-D. Dubeau) Re: TAMU X INSTALL (Greg Hennessy) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Frank Lofaro) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Anthony A. Datri) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Anthony A. Datri) Really bad Motif justification revisited (Olaf Titz) Re: TAMU X INSTALL (Andreas Klemm) Re: DECnet for linux (tiv@ludens.elte.hu) Re: Really bad Motif justification revisited (Alan S. Mazer) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Chris Flatters) Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! (Amancio Hasty Jr) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: a09878@giant.rsoft.bc.ca (Curt Sampson) Subject: Re: How many BogoMips on a washing machine? Date: 22 Nov 93 18:17:04 GMT rabe@akela.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Ralf G. R. Bergs) writes: >wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius) writes: >[...] >> Reporting your BogoMips is about as useful >>as telling us that your washing machine makes your clothes wet. >My washing machine doesn not only make the clothes wet, it even CLEANS >it!!! :-) Yes, but comparisons like this are useless, becuase, though washing machines do run at different speeds, how fast your washing machine cleans the clothes varies depending on the load and what kind of clothes you want cleaned. The MIPS (Million Insoluble Particles per Second) removal rate is different between dark and light loads, hot and cold wash, hard and soft water, etc. So let's not get silly , ok? :-) cjs -- Curt Sampson a09878@giant.rsoft.bc.ca Fluor Daniel 604 691 5458 "...most affectations conceal something 1444 Alberni Street eventually, even if they don't in the Vanouver, B.C., V6G 2Z4 beginning..." --Fitzgerald ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 18:59:54 GMT In article <1993Nov22.112343.22101@dxcern.cern.ch> hallam@alws.cern.ch writes: > >In article , ehhchi@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Ed H. Chi) writes: > >|>In article , R. Stewart Ellis wrote: >|>>Mosaic is perhaps the single most important >|>>free Internet application and the modal way of acquiring it is to ftp it >|>>from one of these sites, already statically linked. If the statements about >|>>license fees for every distributed copy are true, then those of us who have >|>>been getting Mosaic this way will be cut off. >|>> >|>>This has always been my greatest reservation about OSF and Motif. >|> >|> >|>What I don't understand is: >|> >|>Why didn't they use tk/tcl toolkit? It has the ease of Motif programming, >|>and it is free! > >tk/tcl does not provide the same quality of product that Motif does. For >a long time tcl was unusable on VMS systems and was flaky for developers. >I had very serious hassle trying to get tkwww going because it required a >widget that did not work with the new version of tk which we had already >installed. I know that I am going to get flamed for saying this buy the >UNIX hacker community that love software held together by string and hope >but there is a difference between commercial quality software and free >stuff. Usually you have to pay for commercial quality stuff, Mosaic being >a rare exception (exceptions to the getting commercial quality for stuff >you buy rule are far more frequent). Big Flame Thrower on :-) Check out SimCity Demo for what tcl/tk is capable of. BTW: At work I developed a mini network management platform all based in tcl/tk/snmp/expect and it works like a charm. I say that is far easier to develop X oriented apps using tk than Motif and save an order of magnitute of develpment time and size of the application. Amancio -- This message brought to you by the letters X and S and the number 3 Amancio Hasty | Home: (415) 495-3046 | ftp-site depository of all my work: e-mail hasty@netcom.com | sunvis.rtpnc.epa.gov:/pub/386bsd/X ------------------------------ From: hallu@info.polymtl.ca (Louis-D. Dubeau) Subject: Linux and Mach 3.0 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 18:36:44 GMT Hi there! I'd like to know if there are people interested in porting Linux on Mach 3.0 and, if we succeed in porting Linux to Mach 3.0, if there would be people who would be interested in using it. I know the idea is not new. (Although I don't remember having seen any discussion on that in the news.) I ask those questions in order to create a development team to work on the project and to be sure it won't be useless to work on that project. Now, on the philosophical side. I know that Linux on Mach would be slower than Linux alone. IMHO, microkernels are the next step in OS egineering and I don't think IBM, Apple, USL, Chorus... would spend so much money on them if it wouldn't be important. Moreover, multiprocessor systems will be more and more common in the future and by porting Linux to Mach we would gain multiprocessing capability. It would be also possible to run Linux and other OSes a the same time. (Yes, I know it would require some kind of synchronisation between the OSes). BTW, if there is no interest in that project, I will still try to make Mach 3.0 boot and install a server. If I succeed, I will volunteer to help finishing Hurd. -- =========================================================================== | Louis-Dominique Dubeau | | Membre du Comite Micro de l'AEP | | Departement de Genie Informatique | | Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal (Montreal, Quebec) | ====================== This sentence is false !!! ======================== ------------------------------ From: gsh7w@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy) Subject: Re: TAMU X INSTALL Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 17:51:13 GMT In article <1993Nov20.050819.6807@msus1.msus.edu>, Patrick J. Volkerding wrote: #Quite to my surprise, I found myself flamed by some of the XFree people #over including this in the Slackware distribution. I've never had any #problems with it, and I don't know of anyone who has. I configured my CTX 1561 multisync monitor on Friday night. By saturday morning, my monitor was dead. Something caused it to keep popping the fuse. I *WON'T* use the Xconfig.1M file when my replacement monitor arrives. -- -Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: ftlofaro@unlv.edu (Frank Lofaro) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Mon, 22 Nov 93 20:04:02 GMT In article aad@dvorak.amd.com (Anthony A. Datri) writes: >>I would guess none whatsoever. Mosaic *is* a Motif interface to libwww. If >>you want to have another interface then you would throw out virtually all of >>Mosaic. > >Huh? How can Mosaic's functionality *possibly* depend on pseudo-3D art-deco >borders around everything? > And even if it does, there is Xaw3D... ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x From: aad@dvorak.amd.com (Anthony A. Datri) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 19:34:22 GMT >computing community - i.e. you get shot in the head if you are not >a member Even if you *are* a member, you have to pay outrageously. -- ======================================================================8--< ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: aad@dvorak.amd.com (Anthony A. Datri) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 19:43:51 GMT >find the motif look and feel to be "cheesy" sometimes. (twm {does this use the >Athena widgets?} is nicer than mwm, as far a I'm concerned). twm is Xt-based: <=>lovecraft<=>ldd `which twm` -lXmu.4 => /usr/local/lib/x11r5/lib/libXmu.so.4.10 -lXt.4 => /usr/local/lib/x11r5/lib/libXt.so.4.10 -lXext.4 => /usr/local/lib/x11r5/lib/libXext.so.4.10 -lX11.4 => /usr/local/lib/x11r5/lib/libX11.so.4.10 -lc.1 => /usr/lib/libc.so.1.8 -ldl.1 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.1.0 >The Athena widgets come standard with X With real X, at least. HP still doesn't distribute them. -- ======================================================================8--< ------------------------------ From: uknf@rzstud1.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Olaf Titz) Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy Subject: Really bad Motif justification revisited Date: 22 Nov 1993 20:41:08 GMT In article , Marc Andreessen wrote: > Motif is the closest thing there is to a de facto interface > standard on Unix workstations. (Athena does *not* count, and > neither does tcl/tk -- flames will be ineffectual as we take > Mosaic too seriously to base it on anything not directly supported > by the majority of hw/sw vendors out there. And besides, there's Do you take it seriously enough to not piss off those people who are interested in *free* software too? Or are these simply not to be taken seriously? :-( > already a fine tcl/tk browser.) > No, Motif isn't free, and it doesn't come with Linux and similar > systems. All I can say is that for Mosaic for X's target user ========================== > base, the vendors have it covered, and for the user base of which ==== Define this. > Linux is a part (Intel 386/486/Pentium), we're developing Mosaic > for Windows. Not a perfect solution, but it does give us broader I read this as "We [academic institution without profit intention behind - or correct me if I'm wrong] are mainly interested in support for the broadest user base of *commercial* systems." Surprise... But what really makes the reader sad and angry is the following "and those people who don't want to buy Motif are, anyway, better off with DOS and Windows." Has this Windocentristic narrow-mindedness already hit academia? > coverage than any of the imaginable alternatives with the > foundation of vendor-supported technology on each platform. Also, You may be right a thousand times [which can well be doubted], but this doesn't excuse the "justification" given above. NCSA is making excellent products and your , but don't tell me that if I'm just a poor student with an old 386 and no extra $$$ to spend on software the right thing for me is MSWindoze. Olaf -- olaf titz o olaf@bigred.ka.sub.org praetorius@irc comp.sc.student _>\ _ s_titz@ira.uka.de LINUX - the choice karlsruhe germany (_)<(_) uknf@dkauni2.bitnet of a GNU generation what good is a photograph of you? everytime i look at it it makes me feel blue ------------------------------ From: andreas@knobel.knirsch.de (Andreas Klemm) Subject: Re: TAMU X INSTALL Date: 21 Nov 1993 23:21:14 -0000 philp@universe.digex.net (Phil Perucci) writes: >In article <1993Nov20.050819.6807@msus1.msus.edu>, >Patrick J. Volkerding wrote: >>Quite to my surprise, I found myself flamed by some of the XFree people >>over including this in the Slackware distribution. I've never had any >>problems with it, and I don't know of anyone who has. I imagine there are >>some people out there who never did get it to work, but I've used it to >>great success on a variety of accelerated and non-accelerated cards. >> >>So, I'd like to hear if anyone out there has experienced trouble with >>this package, such as hardware problems during the initial setup, or later >>while using a mode that seems to work. >> >>Reports of success would be good, too. :^) >> >I remember reading related posts some time back. It seems the danger >is for people without multisync monitors. Multisync monitors are reported >to be safe in that they can not be driven beyond safe operating limits. >Non-multisync monitor CAN be driven outside safe limits. This can >quickly result in blown fly-back transformers! Bummer! >My multisync happens to be NEC, but I believe other non-NEC multisyncs >should be OK (safe)... I read in a german newsgroup from Dirk Hohndel, that even multisync monitors could be affected, because not all models check the frequency first. Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm /\/\____ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH andreas@knobel.knirsch.de ___/\/\/ andreas@sunny.wup.de (Unix Support) ------------------------------ From: tiv@ludens.elte.hu Subject: Re: DECnet for linux Date: 22 Nov 93 21:31:06 +0100 Hi I'm also interested in this (DECnet and Linux). I've very limited knowledge about it, so if there's someone who knows more, plese share with us. The problems I know of : 1. Eth addr : DECnet (Pathworks for DOS at least) modifies the card's eth addr, while Linux NET code uses the hardwired one. For this reason (seems to me) that DECnet and tcpip CANNOT run simultaneously on the same card. 2. multicast addr : DECnet uses it, but unimplemented in actual NET code (as I know) So its impossible without a major change in networking kernel code... But if there's development on this, please let me know tiv ------------------------------ From: alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Alan S. Mazer) Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: Re: Really bad Motif justification revisited Date: 22 Nov 1993 21:03:57 GMT In article <2cr854$a5t@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>, Olaf Titz wrote: >In article , >Marc Andreessen wrote: >> Motif is the closest thing there is to a de facto interface >> standard on Unix workstations. (Athena does *not* count, and >> neither does tcl/tk -- flames will be ineffectual as we take >> Mosaic too seriously to base it on anything not directly supported >> by the majority of hw/sw vendors out there. And besides, there's > >Do you take it seriously enough to not piss off those people who are >interested in *free* software too? Or are these simply not to be taken >seriously? :-( Not to be flippant since I use free software regularly, but what exactly does anyone lose by "piss[ing] off those people who are interested in *free* software"? Free software doesn't provide employment, and maybe that isn't a problem for you, but there are lots of unemployed people here who have other things to do than write software on their own dime. In short, no one is _entitled_ to _anything_. >But what really makes the reader sad and angry is the following "and >those people who don't want to buy Motif are, anyway, better off with >DOS and Windows." Where was this? I can't find this quote anywhere. >NCSA is making >excellent products and your , but don't tell me that if I'm just a >poor student with an old 386 and no extra $$$ to spend on software the >right thing for me is MSWindoze. Why not? Either write it yourself or get together with others who will but don't tell me I'm obligated to give you free software simply because you don't have the ability to pay for it. Anyone who writes free software is donating large amounts of their own time and expertise. Be thankful for the ones that are left, but don't criticize the ones that can no longer afford to do so. -- -- Alan # Mountain Dew and doughnuts... ..!ames!elroy!alan # because breakfast is the most important meal alan@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov # of the day. ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: cflatter@laphroaig.nrao.edu (Chris Flatters) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: 22 Nov 1993 20:40:33 GMT In article marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Marc Andreessen) writes: (b) EVERY significant workstation vendor has committed to Motif, and everyone but Sun has been shipping it for quite some time. (Sun is apparently finally getting around to shipping it as beta software to some Solaris customers, and will have it out in force early next year -- it is damned annoying that they've stalled on this as long as they have. But that's Sun.) Minor correction: Sun's Motif is not beta software and is available to anybody who wants to pay for it. Chris Flatters cflatter@nrao.edu ------------------------------ Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d From: hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) Subject: Re: Don't use Motif for free sw: it now requires runtime royalties! Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 20:37:13 GMT > >Personally, I prefer to use Tk. Its easier, smaller, faster (adverb >ad nauseum) than Motif OR Athena! > Hi, I received a few e-mail requests for the ftp site for SimCity so here it goes :-) Excerpt from the README file: " AVAILABILITY: Multi Player SimCity is available directly from DUX Software, and via anonymous ftp from ftp.uu.net (192.48.96.9), in the directory "vendor/dux/SimCity". You may freely copy it, and play the fully functional game in "demo mode" " Yet, another power tcl/tk app is tkined a very cool network management platform. Capable of monitoring and displaying graphs on multiple systems and with the tcl/snmp extenstions you can generate snmp queries or set snmp variables. It has a primitive Discovery application to help you layout your network. It is very cool and the total size of the scripts its less than 300k. I forgot where I got it from, if you are further interested just post on comp.lang.tcl From my PC running NetBSD system, using the sample network topology map, I was able to generate snmp queries to their Cisco Routers. Go Build A City, Amancio -- This message brought to you by the letters X and S and the number 3 Amancio Hasty | Home: (415) 495-3046 | ftp-site depository of all my work: e-mail hasty@netcom.com | sunvis.rtpnc.epa.gov:/pub/386bsd/X ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Development-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.development) via: Internet: Linux-Development@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Development Digest ******************************