From: Digestifier To: Linux-Admin@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Reply-To: Linux-Admin@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 10:13:13 EDT Subject: Linux-Admin Digest #53 Linux-Admin Digest #53, Volume #1 Sun, 12 Sep 93 10:13:13 EDT Contents: Re: SHADOW 3.2.2 PASSWD DANGER!!! (oops, sorry) (Brandon S. Allbery) Re: Let's collect KNOWN BUGS (Ian A Murdock) Re: run level testing (Brandon S. Allbery) Re: run level testing (Frank Lofaro) Re: SHADOW 3.2.2 PASSWD DANGER!!! (oops, sorry) (OUTTA HERE!) Re: SHADOW 3.2.2 PASSWD DANGER!!! (Jeffrey Grills) Re: Enough SLS bashing (Re: Install on a ARC Pentium) (Matthew Dillon) Re: `ofiles' anyone (Matthew Dillon) Re: Install on a ARC Pentium (Robert Nagy) Re: Install on a ARC Pentium (Tuomas J Lukka) trouble with dialups & kermit/sz (using mgetty) (Jay Pfaffman) Re: Enough SLS bashing (Re: Install on a ARC Pentium) (Byron A Jeff) Re: Enough SLS bashing (Re: Install on a ARC Pentium) (Jon Hamilton) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) Subject: Re: SHADOW 3.2.2 PASSWD DANGER!!! (oops, sorry) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 20:46:09 GMT In article <26t6sg$guv@bach.seattleu.edu> aehall@calvin.seattleu.edu (OUTTA HERE!) writes: >I've been a sysadmin for a couple of years now (mainly SCO Unix, gag) >and I've never noticed this feature before because when I've run >passwd, I usually do it on purpose to change a passwd. However, the >other day when I posted this, I was just messing around with passwd and >happened to hit enter a couple of times for "new passwd:" and "retype >passwd:"... Actually, if you run SCO at higher security levels not even root can get away with it. Or at least it wasn't possible under 3.2.2; I haven't tried 3.2.4 at higher levels than the purportedly "standard Unix" level. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca ------------------------------ From: imurdock@shell.portal.com (Ian A Murdock) Subject: Re: Let's collect KNOWN BUGS Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 20:58:15 GMT Andreas Klemm (andreas@knobel.knirsch.de) wrote: : kai@depeche.toppoint.de (Kai Voigt) writes: : >bf703@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Patrick J. Volkerding) writes: : >>The solution on the user end is to switch to a better distribution, if : >>the problems with SLS cannot be resolved. My Slackware distribution has : >>far fewer bugs, and comes with a full collection of software, including : >>X11. The MCC distribution doesn't come with all the bells and whistles, : >>but it's about as bug free as a distribution can get. Everything I hear : >>about the ongoing Debian project suggests that it will be far superior : >>to SLS and may become the leading package in the not too distant future. : >We here on our German sls-mailing-list could easily create another : >distribution (we are about 30 people), but this would cause too much : >confusion among the users. So we decided to improve the SLS distribution : >since it's the most popular one for Linux. Since there are so many people : >building distributions for Linux, why don't all these people work : >together for ONE good distribution. The work could be divided into : >single project (like X project, news-mail-uucp project, gcc, etc etc), : >This would be much more effeciently. The shell-script mentioned above : >could ask for the category of the bug and send the bug report to the : >group that is responsible for the packet. So bugs can removed very fast! This is the basic philosophy behind the Debian project! The "base" system is being put together right now, and is *very* solid. Debian isn't publically available yet, as it *is* really just a "base" on which the development teams can build upon at this point. My purpose is to serve as the overall coordinator and organizer of the effort, the maintainer of the distribution as a whole (i.e., incorporating the team contributions and packages into the release), and the one who keeps the base up-to-date and bug free. The other development teams will have coordinaters to serve the latter purpose (still a matter to be worked out). The Debian project is currently cooperating with the FSSTND effort to implement a well thought-out standard filesystem layout, and we are willing to work with any other such groups. A "standard" package installation method is obviously a major issue in the Linux world at present. I am willing to work with anyone who wants to work on such a project. Just let me know. If there's anyone out there interested in helping out with a specific project (i.e., X11) then also let me know. I'm looking for people to coordinate such projects. I already have a few coordinators, but at present the organization of the Debian project is a little shaky and combined with the time that I've been spending on base development I haven't had much time to devote to it. It'll all fall into place, eventually, if I can find people to help. : My goal : one union base distrib with kernel + developement system Currently under construction. : one exactly matching source disk to the base distrib ! A very real possibly, though not an immediate concern of mine. : everything else should be distributed in SVR4 pkgadd/pkgrm/... : format. Reason: binary compatibility to SVR4 is coming (soon?). : SVR4 is a consolidated platform for the 90's on PC's. : Support the diskussion, maybe this way, too. : The pkgadd... utilities a la SVR4 provide all needed features for : clean package removing, pkg creating+listing, permission fixes .... All other packages besides my base that are developed by the above-mentioned teams will be seperate and optional. One of things that hasn't been decided upon is package format; I'm interested in hearing about whatever they have come up with (is someone working on this?) If you're intersted in Debian Linux, there is a DEBIAN channel on the linux-activists list. It's not very active now, but as soon as development gets under way I'm sure that discussion will pick up. Also, if you have something specific to contribute or coordinate please contact me personally. Ian -- Ian Murdock Internet: imurdock@shell.portal.com ------------------------------ From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) Subject: Re: run level testing Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 21:43:11 GMT In article <9309085437@caution.cistron.nl.mugnet.org> miquels@caution.cistron.nl.mugnet.org (Miquel van Smoorenburg,,,) writes: >In article <1993Sep8.013819.307@omphalos.equinox.gen.nz> david@omphalos.equinox.gen.nz (David Liebert) writes: >>How does a script test to see what run-level it is running under. >>(The Sys V 'who -r' doesn't work) > >Assuming you are talking about my SysVinit 2.4 package, you can't. >The GNU who does not have support for this, and neither does init. >I assume that the runlevel has to be kept somewhere in /etc/utmp ? Yes. System V utmp stores an "entry type" in each utmp entry; the run level is stored in one which is appropriately labeled RUN_LEVEL (a manifest constant declared in ). who -r just prints any RUN_LEVEL entry in /etc/utmp. The RUN_LEVEL entry also contains the *previous* run level, which some System V rc scripts use to decide whether to do a full or a partial startup (say, from init 2 to init 3 vs. init S to init 3). ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca ------------------------------ From: ftlofaro@unlv.edu (Frank Lofaro) Subject: Re: run level testing Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 01:13:33 GMT Can't someone check the ucrrent run-lvel by looking at /etc/initrunlvl? If it is automatically deleted after init gets a SIGHUP, maybe removing the automatic deletion might be a good idea. (the file doesn't hurt anything) ------------------------------ From: aehall@calvin.seattleu.edu (OUTTA HERE!) Subject: Re: SHADOW 3.2.2 PASSWD DANGER!!! (oops, sorry) Date: 12 Sep 1993 04:28:24 GMT In article <1993Sep11.204609.6663@kf8nh.wariat.org> bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: >In article <26t6sg$guv@bach.seattleu.edu> aehall@calvin.seattleu.edu (OUTTA HERE!) writes: >>I've been a sysadmin for a couple of years now (mainly SCO Unix, gag) >>and I've never noticed this feature before because when I've run >>passwd, I usually do it on purpose to change a passwd. However, the >>other day when I posted this, I was just messing around with passwd and >>happened to hit enter a couple of times for "new passwd:" and "retype >>passwd:"... > >Actually, if you run SCO at higher security levels not even root can get away >with it. Or at least it wasn't possible under 3.2.2; I haven't tried 3.2.4 at >higher levels than the purportedly "standard Unix" level. hmmm... no wonder I've never run across it then... I administer systems at hospitals and, in order to guarantee a certain level of confidenciality, I set up SCO (3.2.4) (during installation options) with their highest (they claim C2) level. Not that C2 is very high (supposedly most Unix systems by default meet C2 requirements), but I have to do everything I can. :) For a good security book, check out O'Reilley's "Computer Security Basics" or NSA's "Orange Book". But that's a different thread and a different newsgroup... -Anthony -- Anthony Hall _ _ Unix System Administrator aehall@seattleu.edu /_/ /_/ Physician Micro Systems, Inc. _ _ 2033 6th Ave Suite 707 /_/ /_/ Seattle, WA 98122 206-441-8490 ------------------------------ From: jefftep@cs.utexas.edu (Jeffrey Grills) Subject: Re: SHADOW 3.2.2 PASSWD DANGER!!! Date: 12 Sep 1993 00:44:43 -0500 In article <26r3ac$9f1@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> tigger@tigger.cl.msu.edu (Eric Kasten) writes: >Actually I find this rather usefull on >my system at home to which noone external to my immediate >family really has any access (ie, all users are trusted), under >those circumstance I often set my passwds to nothing. >-- >Eric Kasten Ah, to post knowing someone is going to flame me... I've hacked my login program from the poeigl package such that, if any non-root user is logging in on a secure terminal, bypass password checking. Basically, if you can sit down to my machine, then I trust you enough to be who you are, but I still don't trust you enough to give you root access. The only problem with this scheme is, sometimes when I have my machine term'ed onto the net and try to log into my account from another machine, I don't know my password (because I don't use it enough...) works well enough for me. if anyone can see any obvious hole that is usable to gain root from a non-console machine, please tell me... (yes. /etc/securetty is properly setup, with proper permissions) -- jeff grills jefftep@cs.utexas.edu ------------------------------ From: dillon@moonshot.west.oic.com (Matthew Dillon) Subject: Re: Enough SLS bashing (Re: Install on a ARC Pentium) Date: 11 Sep 1993 23:56:00 -0700 :Others said: :.... Hey, don't complain about things that are *FREE*! There are few enough people with the ability to put together distributions, let alone maintain them, and even fewer people with the technical skills required to write many of linux's best enhancements (which are now become standard fare). No one is creating these problems on purpose, and being on the tail end of those kinds of comments is not fun, especially when you aren't charging anything. I've done distributions before, mainly stuff I've written for the Amiga. Frankly speaking, there are ALWAYS problems of one sort or another... It is a human failing that perfection is impossible. I can say that I personally would have much less enthusiasm in making the stuff that I do publically available if all I get for it is hash. Bug reports, great, help me help me, ok, but flames are out of order when it comes to free software. -Matt ------------------------------ From: dillon@moonshot.west.oic.com (Matthew Dillon) Subject: Re: `ofiles' anyone Date: 12 Sep 1993 00:02:50 -0700 In article grosen@NoDak.edu (Johannes Grosen) writes: :Has anyone written an `ofiles' for linux? Specifically, a utility :to tell which processes have open files on a given file system? I :am having troubles getting a file system to unmount and can't track :it down.... : :-- :Johannes Grosen grosen@argv.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu :System Administrator :Intelligent Systems Cluster, Room 244 IACC Building :North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND USA 51805 (701) 237-8282 No but it sounds very easy to do with /proc One thing I've noticed is that when I have a swap file (not swap partition), halt and reboot don't appear to be able to umount that partition unless I swapoff it first. Can you put swap *FILE* specifications in fstab ? I've been too scared to try it as an experiment :-) -Matt ------------------------------ From: nagy@turtle.apana.org.au (Robert Nagy) Subject: Re: Install on a ARC Pentium Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 09:09:20 GMT Jeffrey Wescott '95 (wescott@olive.cs.bucknell.edu) wrote: > In article <1993Sep7.175715.4259@spatzi.rni.sub.org> stm@spatzi.rni.sub.org (Arno Strittmatter) writes: > > I tryed to install Linux 99pl12 SLS 1.03 on an ARC Pentium System > > it did not work! The Bord was a combitype EISA / VLB, 1542C 32MB RAM > > > > It hanged at boottime after that line whis trying Alib.... > > > I see your problem. I'll give you a hint. It is in the first line of > text above and it is three letters and it an acronym -- for what, I > care not to say. A better bet is the MCC Interim release of Linux. > You won't clutter up your NICE system with unneeded sh... crap. You > can find it at ftp.mcc.ac.uk in /pub/linux/mcc-interim (or some other > obvious directory). If you are still having trouble, I would be happy > to trade systems and I'll get it running. ;) But seriously, if you > have any specific problems (with MCC that is, I refuse to help the > people plagued by SLS), you can mail me at wescott@bucknell.edu and I > will be glad to help you. Good luck. Aren't software bigots a wonderful thing. I wonder what ever happened to the internet of the old days. Where people were less inclined to flame or abuse and more interested in helping others. This attitude is typical of so many. It's just so sad. Robert -- ========================================================================== 1993 Harley Davidson Fatboy - The Wind Beneath My Wings nagy@turtle.apana.org.au ------------------------------ From: lukka@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tuomas J Lukka) Subject: Re: Install on a ARC Pentium Date: 12 Sep 1993 14:48:30 +0300 In article <1993Sep11.184130.11704@knobel.knirsch.de>, Andreas Klemm wrote: >pgr@sst.icl.co.uk (Phil Richards) writes: > [...] >>to help people with one specific thing > >You're a slyboot, too. Really? You've got some guts, flaming people who offered to help on a condition? I didn't see YOU offering ANY help. >The other point was, that originally somebody was asking for help >for a specific product. The reply to help him, if he would use >another package than SLS wasn't asked and didn't help much. So he'd have to help you fix your ten-year-old totally-broken trabant? Are you really serious? Any repair-shop mechanic would ALSO tell him to get a better car. SLS is broken, live with it and accept with it. If you get a ten-year-old totally-broken trabant then especially *don't expect anyone to fix it for you for free!!!!!!* >> -- nobody should get upset >>because they explicitly say they won't help with something else. > >If somebody wants to help, then he should *do* so and >not start to prattle. If he can't help, because being religious >fanatic against some other product, then he should keep it for himself. >It wasn't asked by the one who wanted help ! Not fixing ten-year-old totally-broken trabants FOR FREE is hardly because of being a religious fanatic. It's because they're so broken to begin with that the problems are yours. Why don't YOU help him with his SLS problems? You're flaming someone for offering help, if the other one decides to pick up a new car FOR FREE. I see this as a very good measure, but apparently this is not good enough for you. >flames > /dev/null. That's where your flame should also have gone. Welcome to my killfile. *Plonk* Tjl ------------------------------ From: pfaffman@relax.des.edu (Jay Pfaffman) Subject: trouble with dialups & kermit/sz (using mgetty) Date: 1 Sep 93 19:35:01 GMT I'm working on configuring dialups. I've set up mgetty-sendfax to answer the phone (and receive faxes, I think). It works. You can log in and do stuff, BUT you can't use sz or kermit to transfer files. When the program starts, it drops carrier (hangs up the phone). I can also hang up the phone by doing a 'stty crtscts < /dev/cua1', but if crtscts is already set it doesn't hang up the phone. I was hoping that my boss could dial in and use uqwk * the helldiver packet reader starting today. Oh well. :-( BTW, I'd tested uqwk & HPV (using FTP to download the file). It looks like a great offline reader. -- Jay Pfaffman pfaffman@relax.des.edu International Telecomputing Consortium pfaffman@pilot.njin.net PO Box 128, Ripton, VT 05766 802-388-1754 (home office) 802-388-7305 (FAX) ------------------------------ From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) Subject: Re: Enough SLS bashing (Re: Install on a ARC Pentium) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 13:36:20 GMT In article <26uh60$j1o@moonshot.west.oic.com>, Matthew Dillon wrote: >:Others said: >:.... > > Hey, don't complain about things that are *FREE*! There are few enough >people with the ability to put together distributions, let alone maintain them, >and even fewer people with the technical skills required to write many of >linux's best enhancements (which are now become standard fare). No one is >creating these problems on purpose, and being on the tail end of those kinds >of comments is not fun, especially when you aren't charging anything. > > I've done distributions before, mainly stuff I've written for the >Amiga. Frankly speaking, there are ALWAYS problems of one sort or another... >It is a human failing that perfection is impossible. I can say that I >personally would have much less enthusiasm in making the stuff that I do >publically available if all I get for it is hash. Bug reports, great, >help me help me, ok, but flames are out of order when it comes to free >software. > > -Matt Again the points about SLS have been missed: Point 1 - Peter initially released his install scripts with a freely distributable copyright which he then recinded. Point 2 - Peter is distributing GNU copylefted software with his now non copylefted scripts. This is a violation of the GPL. Point 3 - SLS has major installation problems because of insufficient testing. The testing release had bugs, insufficient documentation, and was avaiable only for an short period of time. It was as if Peter didn't want anyone to test the distribution. Point 4 - Many of the SLS 1.03 errors have yet to be fixed even after repeated postings on the same problems. Point 5 - Peter is making the bucks off of the SLS distribution (to non-netters) so saying that it's free in the money sense and that Peter is doing this only from the goddness of his heart is somewhat misleading. At the point you receive cash for a task it becomes a profession. SLS 1.03 doesn't look very professional at this point in time. Point 6 - THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE! SLS is not the end all and be all of Linux distributions even though many folks out here seems to think that's the case. At one point in time that may have been true but MCC, the soon to be released Debian and especially Slackware are available with much less hassle and much more responiveness. Patrick Volkerding has done a wonderful job with Slackware. When his release has problems and people post/mail suggestions not only does he respond to them but he even incorporates changes in his new releases. Also be aware that when Peter finally decided to drop his scripts "hammer" that Patrick was the named target. Peter stared all this. I think we have a right to give him "hash" as you call it. As I've been saying 1st impressions are extremely important when you're talking about initial distributions that go on peoples machines. SLS 1.03 just isn't cutting it. Just because it's free dosn't mean it can't be correct or more importantly correctable. Peter's attitute and distribution comes across as very unprofessional. We don't need that at this point in Linux's development. For my money ( or lack thereof) Slackware 1.02 is where it's at. Check it out. Disclaimer: This is an unsolicted opinion. I'm just a satisfied Slackware user. In fact I just put the new release on my home machine 2 days ago. And only minor problems (like reboot doesn't exist). BAJ --- Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of... Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel! Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu ------------------------------ From: jdh@iastate.edu (Jon Hamilton) Subject: Re: Enough SLS bashing (Re: Install on a ARC Pentium) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 13:39:34 GMT In article <26uh60$j1o@moonshot.west.oic.com> dillon@moonshot.west.oic.com (Matthew Dillon) writes: >:Others said: >:.... > > Hey, don't complain about things that are *FREE*! There are few enough >people with the ability to put together distributions, let alone maintain them, >and even fewer people with the technical skills required to write many of >linux's best enhancements (which are now become standard fare). No one is >creating these problems on purpose, and being on the tail end of those kinds >of comments is not fun, especially when you aren't charging anything. > > I've done distributions before, mainly stuff I've written for the >Amiga. Frankly speaking, there are ALWAYS problems of one sort or another... >It is a human failing that perfection is impossible. I can say that I >personally would have much less enthusiasm in making the stuff that I do >publically available if all I get for it is hash. Bug reports, great, >help me help me, ok, but flames are out of order when it comes to free >software. > I don't think any of this is in dispute. Some points though: 1. SLS is available free, but there _are_ plenty of people who pay for it. Not all the world has net access. Technically what they're paying for is the service of putting it on disks and shipping it, but that's a pretty fine point. 2. Nobody claims to be perfect. It's a given that there _will_ be problems with any distribution. What I'm on about (and many others, I think) is that when we generate bug reports, they seem to be ignored. Even simple things like the rdev > /etc/mtab thing. It was unfortunate when it didn't work in the first release it stopped working in. It was more than unfortunate that it didn't get fixed in the next version (nor apparently has it been fixed _yet_). 3. There's a lot of grumbling about fixing it or shutting up about it. I've fixed these and many other problems on *my* machine, but there's nothing I can do about SLS. I can't even fix blatently broken things and redistribute it. Well, I could; I don't think Peter's position with respect to his copyright holds any legal or ethical water, but I will go along with his wishes and not do so. 4. What Peter charges for SLS has no bearing on his responsibility to maintain some semblence of quality. The fact is, SLS seems to be the most common method for new installations of Linux. It would be a different matter if we were talking about a quick n dirty hack I wrote that broke often, but which I gave quietly to only a few of my hacker friends and told them it wasn't very good. Most (many) people using SLS don't have the knowledge to fix things that are wrong without outside help of some sort. Peter has a responsibility to these people to at least try to get things so they work. 5. Some say we've outgrown SLS. I'm not sure about that. I wouldn't want to use SLS for a new install, even if it worked right. But I'm probably not a typical first time user. I think if it worked properly it would be a good thing. Sad fact is, though, it doesn't. > -Matt -- ==================================================================== = Jon Hamilton | "ARE YOU OPEN ON THURSDAY?!?! THANK YOU! = = jdh@iastate.edu | -- George Carlin = ==================================================================== ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is: Internet: Linux-Admin-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.admin) via: Internet: Linux-Admin@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites: nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux End of Linux-Admin Digest ******************************