Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #629
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Thu, 18 Aug 94 23:13:33 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #629, Volume #2                Thu, 18 Aug 94 23:13:33 EDT

Contents:
  Benchmarks (John F. Davis)
  [Q] Routing Problem/Question! (Jerry Ablan)
  Re: Suggest:SCSI Tape File System (Angelo Haritsis)
  Does Linux have ... (Bob Chalmers)
  Re: Ambra (Steven Bellovin)
  Re: How to put Linux box on Internet (Phil Hughes)
  Re: APC refuses to give out info without NDA (Marc A. Runkel)
  xv and libgr.so.1 - again (Bill McCarthy)
  ISDN and Linux (Darko Krizic)
  Linux runs HPUX Motif (Frank Pilhofer)
  Re: Motif Alternative? (Tim Meals)
  Re: Linux BBS Software  (kieferal.asa@asa.org)
  Re: ObjectCenter. What is it ? (Jim Frost)
  Re: ObjectCenter. What is it ? (Don Clayton)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: davis@clark.net (John F. Davis)
Subject: Benchmarks
Date: 18 Aug 1994 20:56:54 GMT

Anybody know where I can get some benchmarks comparing Liunx on a 486DX33 
with a Sparc10 and a RS6000 520?

Please send replies to davis@clark.net

--

Thanks

John F. Davis
davis@clark.net


Computer/Electrical/Systems/Software Engineer.  
BSCPE, BSEE, soon to be MSEE.
=======================================================
Call me for your computer questions at 253-3681.
Or feel free to send questions to davis@clark.net.
I'm always willing to help.  Any question.  Any time.
=======================================================
DOS, Linux, Unix, or hardware.

Damascus Computer Services
26012-H Brigadier Place
Damascus, MD 20872




------------------------------

From: munster@news.cboe.com (Jerry Ablan)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.help
Subject: [Q] Routing Problem/Question!
Date: 18 Aug 1994 22:22:27 GMT

I've got a Linux box connect to an ethernet segment. I have a modem on that
same box connected to the Internet.

The eth0 device is 198.160.147.28
The sl0 device is 199.3.187.1

Packets coming in for 198.160.147.* are not being routed from the sl0 device
to the eth0 device, and vice versa. Packets from 198.160.147.27 are getting
to .28, but are not utilizing the default route, they just die!! 

Here is my routing table:

Kernel routing table
Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
198.160.147.0   *               255.255.255.192 U     0      0      458 eth0
198.160.147.192 gw.cboe.com     255.255.255.192 UG    0      0    18732 eth0
127.0.0.0       *               255.0.0.0       U     0      0      330 lo
default         *               *               U     0      0      621 sl0

Does anyone see anything blatently wrong here that is causing me all this
grief?

--
.----------------------------------------------------------.
| Jerry Ablan               Chicago Board Options Exchange |
| Sr. Systems Developer               LaSalle at Van Buren |
| Distributed Systems Division          Chicago, IL. 60605 |
|----------------------------------------------------------|
| "I have always believed that I was slightly saner than   |
|  most people. Then again, most insane people think       |
|  this."                               -- Truman Capote   |
|----------------------------------------------------------|
| GAT: d--(?) -p+ c++++ l++ u+ c+(*) m+(++) s++/++ !n      |
|      h---(--) f+ g+++ w++ t++ r++ y**(--)                |
`----------------------------------------------------------'

------------------------------

From: ah@doc.ic.ac.uk (Angelo Haritsis)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Suggest:SCSI Tape File System
Date: 18 Aug 94 23:48:25 GMT

Just to extent the very good suggestion:

If it is possible to seek to and write individual blocks on a tape
the filesystem can be made to simulate a disk fs - simply slower.
Of course, I know it is not possible to do seek on all drives or
is it (I have the Wangtek 5525ES scsi and it is and I always wanted
to do something like it but lacked the time...) Do the QIC-80
drives also support seek/tell ?

If this is applicable to only a small amount of drives then probably
it is not worth - but rather easy to implement: just get a disk fs code
and try to midify it accordingly (i know, there are a lot of
special problems to face - ie eliminate motor movement, fragmentation etc)

Just a suggestion ...

Angelo
-- 
#include <standard.disclaimer.h>
 Angelo Haritsis, Applied Systems Section
 s-mail: Dpt of Computing,Imperial College, 180 Queen's Gate, London SW7 2BZ, UK
 e-mail: ah@doc.ic.ac.uk - !!!NEW!!! tel:+44 71 594 8434 - fax:+44 71 589 7127

------------------------------

From: earth@nanguo.cstpl.com.au (Bob Chalmers)
Subject: Does Linux have ...
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 09:30:23 GMT

Does Linux have nntp, smtp, and perhaps snmp.??
Particualrly interested in if it has smtp and nntp.

Please reply by email if you know, as I can't actually read
this news group.

thanks,
Bob
-- 
..................... Internet Service Provider ............................
|  Robert Chalmers.         ,-._|\*<-Mackay    robert@nanguo.cstpl.com.au  |
|   CSTPL (Comms).         /      \ FAX: +61 79 524032  PH: +61 79 524395  |
| International Access.    \_.-\__/  *Coherent Info,    info@cstpl.com.au  |
| Brisbane & Mackay              v   *Coherent Sales,   sales@cstpl.com.au |
|---MIME CAPABLE------* ao zhong you yi wan sui *--------------------------|

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems
From: smb@research.att.com (Steven Bellovin)
Subject: Re: Ambra
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 15:09:00 GMT

In article <32vjtm$jj4@xanth.cs.odu.edu>, cordn_d@lightning.cs.odu.edu (David Cordner) writes:
> Steven Bellovin (smb@research.att.com) wrote:
> : Any words of wisdom on Ambra systems, pro or con?  I intend to run
> : DOS/Windows and Linux.
> 
> Didn't I read a couple of weeks ago that IBM was shutting down Ambra?
> They didn't say that they were selling them or spinning them off into
> another IBM owned company, but that they were closing them down.  The
> article claimed that they couldn't compete and that profits were not
> what IBM had expected.  (I still see Ambra adds in the trade magazines
> and have wondered if they were there because of publication lead time
> requirements or if the article I read was wrong.)

Several folks have replied about this.  Yes, that's quite accurate.
The folks who answer Ambra's 800 number say that the product line is
just being folded back into the main company.  Whether or not to believe
that is a judgment call, of course; given that I have yet to see
general agreement about anyone's tech support being good, I'm inclined
to believe that I'm mostly on my own anyway, at least after the first
few weeks...

My question is really asking if the machines themselves are any good.

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
From: fyl@eskimo.com (Phil Hughes)
Subject: Re: How to put Linux box on Internet
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 23:58:02 GMT

George Buklow (caller@eskimo.com) wrote:

: Let's get back to the real thing now. I am very interested in networking 
: especially putting my Linux box on the Internet (if that's all possible). 
: I am trying to swallow all the stuff about direct hookups, T1, CSU/DSU, 
: routers, Ethernets and rest of the magic kingdom of high speed digital 
: communications. 
...
: I would appreciate all and any suggestions or a good source of information 
: about setting a network box from Linux operators who have their systems on 
: the Internet.      

I can't say we have all the answers yet but we are putting them together
for a series of articles in Linux Journal.  Keep watching.

And, if you are an author who wants to write something on connectivity,
send e-mail to ljeditor@sunsite.unc and request an author's guide.

--
Phil Hughes, Publisher, Linux Journal (206) 527-3385
usually phil@fylz.com, sometimes fyl@eskimo.com

------------------------------

From: mrunkel@twain.ucs.umass.edu (Marc A. Runkel)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.bsd
Subject: Re: APC refuses to give out info without NDA
Date: 18 Aug 1994 18:36:48 GMT

: Vince believes APC has more to gain from proprietary communications,
: than from an open system.  This is an 80's attitude.  Wake up Vince,
: we're half-way through the 90's!

Actually, we seem to have come full circle. Back in the CP/M days, no 
specs meant no sale.  :-)

If anyone from APC is reading this, you will be glad to know that I too 
will no longer be suggesting that the UMass buy APC UPS's.  Which is too 
bad, as I think they are good products.

--
Marc A. Runkel                              marc.runkel@registrar.umass.edu
Network Analyst                             Of course, this is just my
Registrar's Office * Systems Support Group  tiny, insignificant, humble
University of Massachusetts, Amherst        opinion.  If you don't like it....

------------------------------

From: bmccarth@gulfaero.com (Bill McCarthy)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
Subject: xv and libgr.so.1 - again
Date: 18 Aug 1994 20:14:53 -0400

Hiya:

well, I'll try it one more time. When I get and compile xv, or when I
get and run the xv binary, the error message I get is "can't find libgr.so.1"
Anyone know where to find this? Also, which xv file is most complete on
sunsite? I'm running kernel 1.1 and Yggdraisl Summer distribution. I'd like
to use tMosaic's viewer, but can't til I get xv set up. Any help would be
appreciated. Also, I have the new slackware pro cd, could I cp the needed
files/binaries from that to my hdd and expect xv to work? 




Bill McCarthy
bmccarth@gulfaero.com

"Isn't it pretty to think so."
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT\__Jake Barnes___________________________
LinuX + i486dx2/66 
usual disclaimer 

 
   

 

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: de.comp.os.linux
From: dekay@xtac.tg.sub.org (Darko Krizic)
Subject: ISDN and Linux
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 22:06:13 GMT

A friend and me are thinking of connecting our Linux-Boxes with ISDN
running TCP/IP and UUCP over TCP/IP and replacing our Hi-Speed Modems
running UUCP.

Here are a few questions:

- How much do ISDN-Card cost?

- How are ISDN-Cards integrated into the Linux operating system?

- Is there a way to run TCP/IP over ISDN or is it possible to use SLIP?

- Is it possible to have "semi-permanent" connections. e.g. when I
  ping the other box, the other box is connected. The disconnect comes
  after a timeout.

- Does anybody run a WAN via ISDN and TCP/IP

Thanks in advance for any help

=====================================================================
Darko Krizic   Langweidenstrasse 37   60488 Frankfurt   49 69 7893687
dekay@xtac.tg.sub.org   MIME   4e71   "Powered by Motorola"
=====================================================================

------------------------------

From: frank@drios.rbi.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de (Frank Pilhofer)
Subject: Linux runs HPUX Motif
Date: 18 Aug 1994 19:04:58 GMT

   Hi,

 be prepared for great news. Right now, my Linux runs the HPUX Motif clone,
"HP VUE" and its window maanager vuewm.
 How did I do that?

 1.) I called my university with my modem.
 2.) Started term on both ends and txconn on the remote side, which is
     a HP.
 3.) Killed fvwm on my Linux machine.
 4.) Started /usr/vue/bin/vuewm

 Thats all! After issuing the last command, you have to wait approximately
10-15 minutes (with a 14400 modem), but then vuewm runs. And it works.
I have my standard backdrop menu; only the panel on the bottom makes some
problems. But at least it's there.
 Oh yes, just now while writing the letter everything crashed as I tried
to start xmosaic :-))) Ah well. Just for fun anyway.

 Hope you've laughed a bit,
        Frank

-- 
 + Frank Pilhofer                          frank@informatik.uni-frankfurt.de +
 | Darmstaedter Str. 22                                                      |
 | D-63225 Langen, Germany                                                   |
 +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Department of Computer Sciences * University of Frankfurt / Main, Germany |

-- 
 + Frank Pilhofer                          frank@informatik.uni-frankfurt.de +
 | Darmstaedter Str. 22                                                      |
 | D-63225 Langen, Germany                                                   |
 +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

From: tmeals@s1.csuhayward.edu (Tim Meals)
Subject: Re: Motif Alternative?
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 16:48:16 GMT

Jae W. Chang (jae+@CMU.EDU) wrote:

: What's a good free alternative to the Motif Widget libs for doing
: interface coding? A compatible API is not necessary, either.
: I've found that for most of the src's requiring the motif libs, I've
: been able to find compiled binaries for them - like Mosaic. However,
: for the programs that I need to write w/ a nice user interface, I'd
: like to use some widget library like Motif w/ Xt instead of doing all
: the X crud myself.

        I remember seeing someone developing a Motif look-a-like widget
library in the Linux Projects FAQ.  It's toward the end somewhere.

--
Tim Meals
School of Business and Economics Computer Lab
California State University, Hayward
Hayward, CA  94542
tamino@csuhayward.edu
(510)881-3337   [voice]
(510)727-2039   [fax]

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Linux BBS Software 
From: kieferal.asa@asa.org
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 94 12:09:24 MDT


In article <32ud09$iio@nova.umd.edu>, <ucbruce@nova.umd.edu> writes:
> Relay-Version: ANU News - V6.1B9 05/16/94 VAX/VMS V1.5; site asa.org
> Path: 
asa.org!csn!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.en
g.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!nova.umd.edu!not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
> Subject: Linux BBS Software
> Message-ID: <32ud09$iio@nova.umd.edu>
> From: ucbruce@nova.umd.edu (Bruce Parks)
> Date: 17 Aug 1994 21:20:09 -0400
> Organization: University of Maryland University College
> Keywords: BBS
> Summary: Recommendation for BBS Package Wanted
> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.umd.edu
> Lines: 28
> 
> Following is a list of the BBS software available at sunsite.unc.edu.  
> Has anybody tried any of these packages?  Any observations/recommendations?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bruce
> 
> /pub/Linux/system/BBS (INDEX)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> XBBS-7.210.gz            source code for XBBS
> atp142bin.tar.gz         a QWK downloader and news reader
> atp142src.tar.gz         source for a QWK downloader and reader
> bbs-5.0-src.tar.gz       the No-Name BBS system
> ctdl-bin.tgz             bins for the Citadel BBS package
> ctdl-src.tgz             source for the Citadel BBS package
> ebbs.2.2.tar.gz          Internet BBS based on Pirates BBS

The ebbs (Eagle BBS) has a review in the last Linux journal.  It looks pretty good.

> mbox-2.2.tar.gz          bbs package ported to linux
> nxm0.05a.tar.Z           Fido EMSI Mailer for Linux
> party.taz                Public "party-line", w/ local, multi-user chat
> pbbs-1.9.tar.Z           Source for Pirate BBS, a dial-in or net BBS system
> pub_acc.taz              amusements for public systems: matchmaking progs, etc.
> rocat-0.75.tar.gz        BBS system w/ files,messages,multiple-machine support
> unib112a.tar.Z           part 1 of UniBoard BBS bins
> unib112c.tar.Z           part 3 of UniBoard BBS bins
> unib112l.tar.Z           part 2 of UniBoard BBS bins
> uqwk1.4.tar.Z            Allows collection of mail for offline reading
> xbbsv1-0.tar.Z           Source for xbbs ported to linux
> 


------------------------------

From: jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: ObjectCenter. What is it ?
Date: 18 Aug 1994 19:13:00 GMT

wgsohne@tucson.Princeton.EDU (Guido Sohne) writes:
>In article <32t7vo$879@wcap.centerline.com>,
>Jim Frost <jimf@centerline.com> wrote:
>>wgsohne@stone.princeton.edu (Guido Sohne) writes:
>>
>>>Is there an ObjectCenter for Linux ? Does it
>>>support other languages than C/C++ ? How much is it ?
>>
>>There is not.  It's not likely there ever will be because it's too
>>hard to support a noncommercial OS, particularly one where each site
>>might have made changes.  Maintenance would be a nightmare.  Right now
>>we target SunOS 4, Solaris 2, HP/UX, and AIX.

>A mistake I think. There is already a reference kernel for development of
>packages that have a much longer development cycle than the kernel itself.

The problem is far more one of volume and customer base.  Linux still
doesn't have many users who would pay for *any* commercial development
package, much less a high-end package.  If we see much commercial
acceptance of Linux this could change, but I don't think we'll see it
for awhile.  Even so the potential customer base will be quite small
relative to the existing workstation marketplace.

Another problem is that ObjectCenter is a *complicated* product.  It
is extremely difficult to port because it necessarily touches the very
deepest and dirtiest parts of an OS.  We've made extremely large gains
in portability, but it's still a matter of man-years in most
instances.

>>I believe ObjectCenter is priced at roughly $4000 per floating
>>license, and CodeCenter at $3000.  Fixed-user licenses are a bit
>>cheaper, but I can't remember how much.  There are a number of
>>different volume discounting plans.

>Expensive. With Pentiums rivalling workstation performance and being widely
>available at rapidly decreasing costs, I think your company would make a
>good move in offering a lower cost version of your product, say 'Personal
>ObjectCenter' aimed at professional programmer who might like to be able to
>code from home when the get that brilliant idea at midnight.

The question is what parts do we take out to make this new low-end
version, and how much will that really impact our cost-of-product?
How big will the market really be?

>The money is in volume and the future is in marketshare.

Agreed.

>>ObjectCenter actually provides considerably more
>>functionality than traditional debuggers, which is part of its appeal.

>Unfortunate you didnt post the feature set. I'm sure many people would be
>interested in knowing what a *good* development environment is capable of.
>I for one am very interested in knowing exactly what makes Objectcenter
>worth the $3000-$4000 people pay for it.

I'll give a brief overview, then.  A more complete one can be had by
calling our marketing department.

- Incremental linker.  (Most edit/link/debug cycles are under five
  seconds.)
- Full C/C++ interpreter, providing more than two hundred runtime
  error checks on code loaded in "source" (interpreted) form.
- Object-code instrumentation, providing bounds and initialization
  checks on heap-allocated memory in any loaded object-code.
- An interactive workspace that allows both traditional dbx commands
  and the ability to enter any arbitrary C/C++ code -- including code
  fragments, functions, or whole programs.
- A graphical cross-reference browser.
- A graphical data browser (great for displaying trees, lists, etc).
- "Action" points -- breakpoints which automatically execute any
  arbitrary C/C++ code.
- A C++ object inheritance browser.
- User-definable buttons and menu items (great for integrating with
  revision-control packages or other tools).
- Tight integration with vi and emacs, as well as any editor
  supporting ToolTalk or SoftBench integration.  We also provide, on
  request, our own simple GUI-based editor or an integrated version of
  Sun's textedit.
- Tight integration with the existing "make" and compiler tools.
- An extensible integration architecture, called CLIPC, which may be
  used to create plug-and-play products.  CLIPC is essentially an
  early form of a distributed object architecture, and is used to
  implement most integration services.

Where's the value?  Let's say you've got a 100,000 line application
that has a bug in it.  A customer has given you a reproducible case.

In most cases you start up ObjectCenter, load in your application
completely in object (rather than interpreted) form, and instrument
the entire application.  Run the test case.

It's really likely that ObjectCenter will find the problem when it
occurs, long before the symptoms show up.  It'll point you right at
the line with the error.

Let's say that the problem is more subtle and the object-code error
checking doesn't find it.  If you can guess what section of code the
error probably occurs in, you can swap out individual object code
modules in favor of interpreted code (there's a point-and-click
interface, of course).  Interpreting is a lot slower, but catches a
LOT of different errors, even very subtle ones.  So you swap out the
code and rerun the test case.  It's really, really likely that it'll
point out the problem when it occurs.

Let's say that even that doesn't work.  So far you've probably
invested ten or fifteen minutes into the debugging process, so you
haven't lost much.  You can create assertion routines for the affected
classes and set action points on entry and exit points of the member
functions of the affected classes.  Rerun your test case and watch for
assertions.  Note that you don't have to change any source code to do
this.

While you're looking for the problem you can use the data browser to
take a look at the structure of your data.  It'll follow pointers
recursively and display graphs (eg lists, trees, DAGs) graphically.
You can really SEE what your data looks like.

When you need to make a change your favorite editor is just a mouse
click away.  Make the change, save it, and hit the "build" button to
refresh the program.  If it's a simple change it's likely that only
one module will be rebuilt and/or reloaded, a process that typically
takes no more than a few seconds (5-10) no matter how large the
application is.

Most developers find that using ObjectCenter debugging is almost
automated.  You run the test case and it points you at the problem.
Usually the most insidious bugs are caught that way, reducing
debugging time from weeks to *minutes*.  But even when it can't do
that, it still provides a bunch of features to help you find it faster
than traditional debuggers.

I hope this gives you some idea of the product.  The capabilities are
so far beyond those of VC++ that it's not even funny; VC++ pretty much
gives simple integration of minimal debugging capabilities.

jim frost
jimf@centerline.com

------------------------------

From: dclayton@bcarh383.bnr.ca (Don Clayton)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: ObjectCenter. What is it ?
Date: 18 Aug 1994 19:10:15 GMT

In article <1994Aug18.045943.23106@Princeton.EDU>, wgsohne@tucson.Princeton.EDU (Guido Sohne) writes:
|> In article <32t7vo$879@wcap.centerline.com>,
|> Jim Frost <jimf@centerline.com> wrote:
|> 
|> Expensive. With Pentiums rivalling workstation performance and being widely
|> available at rapidly decreasing costs, I think your company would make a
|> good move in offering a lower cost version of your product, say 'Personal
|> ObjectCenter' aimed at professional programmer who might like to be able to
|> code from home when the get that brilliant idea at midnight.
|> 
|> The money is in volume and the future is in marketshare. The workstations
|> as we have tradionally known them are a dying breed. They can't compete
|> with Pentiums on price alone and with increased power from the Intel type
|> CPUs the Intel juggernaut rolls on.  

I have to disagree with this comment.  Workstations are not a dying breed
(look at the sales), and pentium PCs do not have similar performance to
a workstation, they have similar CPU performance, which is not the same.
Disk and video IO, network connections, RAM speed and resources have more
to do with performance than CPU speed.  If you don't believe me compare
graphics on a PC to graphics on a SGI, or compiling time on a PC to a HP
workstation.

The pentium is not capable of competition in price either.  My HP 9000/720
sells for about $10,000ca, but that gets you a 21'' colour monitor, 128 meg
of RAM, 1 gig disk, Ethernet connections, etc.  Pentiums sell for about $5000
and that gets you a super VGA monitor, 200 meg of disk and 8 meg of RAM.
Consider the cost of the Monitor ($3000ca) itself the Pentium is not better
than the workstation.

|> >I'm sorry if this sounds like a shameless product plug, but you asked.
|> >I have deliberately avoided listing many of the features of
|> >ObjectCenter that make it such a compelling environment, focusing on
|> >differences between the visual support of basic debugging functions in
|> >contrast with VC++.  ObjectCenter actually provides considerably more
|> >functionality than traditional debuggers, which is part of its appeal.
|> 
|> Unfortunate you didnt post the feature set. I'm sure many people would be
|> interested in knowing what a *good* development environment is capable of.
|> I for one am very interested in knowing exactly what makes Objectcenter
|> worth the $3000-$4000 people pay for it.

Objectcenter/Codecenter provide the following features (limited set) :

   1 - C++/C Interpreter           (a real big one)
   2 - memory violation checking 
   3 - data store modification
   4 - regular debugging type stuff (breakpoints, symbolic display, make,
     cross-referencing, class browser, etc.)

I have never seen 1 or 2 on any PC debugger (except for Smalltalk).

For various reason I don't use Objectcenter (I use Softbench/Purify) but
they do seriously outperform any PC development product I've ever seen or
heard off.  Note that both of them require considerable system resources
(> 60 Meg of RAM) to run.

Don Clayton
Member of Scientific Staff
Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.  | Flames to alt.flame.
MENTOR Opus Development : (613) 765-4486          | Comments to dclayton@bnr.ca.
* These views do not necessarily (and usually don't) represent the views of BNR. 

------------------------------


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