Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #388
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Wed, 6 Jul 94 22:13:12 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #388, Volume #2                 Wed, 6 Jul 94 22:13:12 EDT

Contents:
  Re: commercial programms (Warner Losh)
  Motif for Linux DISCLAIMER (Roman Yanovsky  roman@btr.com)
  Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing (Kirk A. Severtson)
  Drivers for Hayes ESP (Peter Jones)
  Re: Is it possible to mix FIDO and Usenet? (Karl Eichwalder)
  Re: Terminal Server - Different Question (Barry Flanagan)
  Heated debate(?) on OS/2 and Linux programming. (Paul Floyd)
  Re: X editors (Jason Van Patten)
  Re: Motif (Trebor Flow)
  Need help building ultimate Linux system (Byron A Jeff)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: imp@boulder.parcplace.com (Warner Losh)
Subject: Re: commercial programms
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 16:27:34 GMT

In article <2vbng7$qhs@news.u.washington.edu> tzs@u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>Kai Petzke <wpp@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>c) Because Linux is ever-changing.
>>   Commercial software developers don't like the idea to having to
>>   update their programs, because the operating system changed.
>>   Also, they fear, that support will be complicated with all the
>>   versions of linux around.
>I'd guess that c) is a big reason.  Commercial vendors hate it when a
>customer calls up and says "your software breaks on the latest system"
>and they ask "what system are you running" and the customer gives them
>a number that's two or three releases past the one the vendor updated
>to just last week!

Tim hit the nail right on the head.  Linux can't keep a binary
compatible environment for over about 6 months.  It isn't all Linux's
fault, mind you, as FSF changed the binray representation of member
function pointers between g++ 2.4.x and 2.5.x.  The shared libraries
have had entry points change so that if you are using c++ and move
bewteen 2.4.x and 2.5.x with a library, things break.  I've literally
had to jump through hoops to keep OI working with newer versions of
Linux.  If g++ 2.5.8 could compile OI, then it would have been easy,
but it was both binary incompatible and badly broken.

In general Linux is a good system, but in the past it hasn't paid
enough attention to allowing every binary to work w/o any hassles at
all.  They have done a good job, but not as good as Sun has done with,
say the 4.x series of releases.

It is quite hard to support a system that is changing the rules out
from under you.  That doesn't mean we'll no longer have anything to do
with Linux, but we'll wait for more stable and usable versions of the
compilers before jumping in again.  The game will change again with
XFree 3.x and with gcc 2.6.x :-(.

Warner

-- 
Warner Losh             imp@boulder.parcplace.COM       ParcPlace Boulder
"... but I can't promote you to "Prima Donna" unless you demonstrate a few
 more serious personality disorders"

------------------------------

From: roman@btr.btr.com (Roman Yanovsky  roman@btr.com)
Subject: Motif for Linux DISCLAIMER
Date: 6 Jul 1994 08:45:14 GMT

After announcing "Motif for Linux" in the Trans-Ameritech Supplement,
I got the rumors that "OSF agents are after my head ".

Therefore I have to make the following disclaimer.

1. I CAN NOT CALL IT "MOTIF", BUT DESCRIBE IT AS ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:

"a motif for Linux"
"100% source code compatible with OSF/Motif"

(i.e. a clone of Motif).

2.  THE FINAL DISTRIBUTION AGREEMENT IS NOT READY YET.  ONLY AFTER IT'S
READY, PER YOUR ORDER, I CAN MAIL YOU THE ACTIVATION FLOPPY AND THE MANUAL.
(and will collect $139 for that).

I expect the agreement to be finalized in a couple of weeks.  I will
announce it (if I'am still alive by that time).

Roman.
Trans-Ameritech

P.S. Go figure ...

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: kas@teamquest.com (Kirk A. Severtson)
Subject: Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 14:51:14 GMT

In article <1194@zam103.zam.kfa-juelich.de> mibo@isi026.isi.kfa-juelich.de writes:
>In <Yi4QOjK00WB_8CTHYv@andrew.cmu.edu>, professor+@CMU.EDU (Leo L Turetsky) 
writes:>>Simple equation:  Linux = $0.00 < OS/2 = $100.00.

>Maybe too simple. What does your university pay for Usenet access? To be fair
>one should compare real cost. 

>Linux on CD \approx DM 80.00 < OS/2 on CD = DM 99.00. The relation still holds,
>but the difference is smaller.

But Linux can be installed from the CD on as many machines as you like, while 
OS/2 is only legal on one machine.  Voila, the difference is clear.

Kirk Severtson                   |  
TeamQuest Corporation            |  In search of a truly
Clear Lake, IA  50428            |  original tagline
kas@teamquest.com                |

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.unix.sys5.r4
From: thanatos@drealm.drealm.org (Peter Jones)
Subject: Drivers for Hayes ESP
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:52:49 +0000

Hi.

We are interested in using the Hayes ESP board for high-speed modem
control under Linux or Consensys V4.2.  Does anyone know whether a
driver exists for either platform?

Thanks.

-- Peter

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.help
From: karl@pertron.central.de (Karl Eichwalder)
Subject: Re: Is it possible to mix FIDO and Usenet?
Reply-To: keichwa@gwdg.de (Karl Eichwalder)
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 22:43:05 GMT

[ Followup-To: comp.os.linux ]

5 Jul 1994 14:33:52 GMT, No Place Like Home BBS (noplace@clark.net) wrote:

> : Is it possible to get a FIDOnet mailer for linux?

> Look for a program called IFMAIL on sunsite or one of the other big ftp
> archives.  If you can figure it out, it does a pretty good job of
> transferring fido<==>usenet news and mail.

Please look for fidogate-3.7.x.tar.gz, too; I'm running fidogate since v.3.3
-- first in combination with XP-FM.EXE (DOS), but now with ifcico (part of the
ifmail package).

> The docs are pretty inadequate, but you can probably figure it out yourself.

In the fidogate-*.tar.gz you will find an `info' file :-)

--
                        | keichwa@gwdg.de             |  ____   _ o
                        | karl@pertron.central.de     | ___  _-\_<,
Karl Eichwalder         | 2:2437/209                  |     (*)/'(*) 

------------------------------

From: barryf@iol.ie (Barry Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Terminal Server - Different Question
Date: 6 Jul 1994 21:37:47 GMT

PineSalad (salad@netcom.com) wrote:

: I'm looking for a way to consolidate our dial-out modems.

: Currently they are spread out over several machines, and it's becoming a
: pain.

: It would be nice to have a box on the net that someone could telnet to
: (without logging in), have it automatically decide which modem is free, 
: ask what # to dial, and make the final connection.

: I've seen dedicated hardware for this, anything similar for Linux?


Get a terminal server for this. I can heartily recommend the Annex3 by
Xylogics (info@xylogics.com). 

-Barry


--
   *********************************************************************** 
              IRELAND ON-LINE, West Wing, Furbo, Galway, Ireland
                 Tel: +353 (0)91 92727 : Fax: +353 (0)91 92726
            IOL Internet Services - Dublin: 671-5185 : Galway 92711

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mbhpfpj@meehpe.ee.man.ac.uk (Paul Floyd)
Subject: Heated debate(?) on OS/2 and Linux programming.
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 17:36:45 GMT

In article <1994Jul5.182836.21599@Princeton.EDU>, wgsohne@spot.Princeton.EDU (Guido Sohne) writes:
> That's another cool thing about Linux and the string-a-set-of-commands
> mentality. The manual for all commands and all function calls for the
> system libraries and add ins is available. The manual is initially stored
> in compressed source form and each time you refer to a call or command you
> never referred to before it gets processed and converted into text and
> stored for future reference.

You say "cool", I turn green and retch. I just press ctrl-h in EPM and if it
exists, I get the hypertext help.

> You can use grep find etc to search the manual pages for what you want. Not
> as intuitive as the GUI but a hell of a lot more powerful and configurable.
> Also with the command line compilers, all you need is to use your favorite
> editor. Emacs needs a few keystrokes and it will make your project for you
> taking you from error to error in the compilation to the corresponding
> source line.

Man pages and grep. Hypertext is infinitely more pleasureable to use. You
can use different editors with WorkFrame, even emacs if you insist.

I can MakeMake a make file in two mouse clicks, and run nmake in 2 as well.

Double clicking on errors in the nmake window takes you to the error
in EPM, where there are also options to describe the error and get more
details about the error.

> Emacs is self documenting as well. So not only is the help system more
> powerful, and more useful when you need to do heavy duty research into the
> documentation but it is far less since none of the superflous "What does
> Compile/Options/Code/386 only do ?" type documentation exists.

Like I said, C Set ++ has ALL of the docs online, and with QwikInf (a popup
search utility) you can search any of the hypertext documents. Something
that is superfluous to you is not to a beginner. But I suppose you know it
all anyway, so you don't really need help. How could you want more than is in the
full printed documentation? If you get the EPM compiler package (free - should
appeal to you), you get hypertext user and technical manuals.

> GNU C++ comes with its own class libraries. If you need class libraries for
> X there's a plethora of them out there for you to choose. As before, the
> strength of Unix comes out in its letting you pick and choose, mix and
> match to your needs and specifications rather than have to settle with a
> predetermined set of features that may or may not suit your needs.

You can add other tools/components to WorkFrame (1.1 and 2.1).

And when you've added all these things (including X class libraries,
unpacked documentation and emacs with add-ins to make fucking toast
and play Radio 1), does it still fit on a 360K floppy?
 
> Oh by no means not. Emacs is the definitive programmable editor. It can do
> almost anything in the world! Ask any Emacs advocate (I like VI myself).
> Even if, in a wild dream, they were equivalent, Emacs has so many more
> addins written for it that it would open up a can of whupass and force feed
> it to EPM.

I see.
 
> You can, if you like Emacs that much, set it to be your login shell and
> would probably never have to leave it to do anything. Compiling, debugging,
> playing Tower of Hanoi or Blackjack, FTPing stuff, Gopher, Archie, Reading
> Usenet and many more things can be done in Emacs.

Even more proof that you are a complete twat. I use this thing called an operating
system for those sort of functions. And for the others, I use programs. If I wanted
something to calculate biorythms and act as a fileserver, I'd get things designed
to do them.
 
> So take your EPM and shove it.

It beats me how your mind can be so small and narrow. Does using VI do this to you?

Have you ever used e [the epm macro language]? Did you answer my point that EPM
looks better and is easier to use than emacs? But EPM's not a linux program
so it must be crap, but if it was, it'd be cool. emacs reminds me of WordPerfect
for DOS, the first time I used it, I had to randomly press keys to get anything
to happen (like VI as well).  

Maybe you should talk to Larry Margolis (key figure in the IBM EPM team), or
Mr. Macro as I once heard him referred to as. EPM does everything I want to,
and everything I'm likely to want. And I've grown to like the look and the
key commands. I don't suppose you can understand that though, that most people
just grow to like an editor and usually stick to it.


Oh yeah, and wasn't emacs one of the weak links that was exploited bu the internet
worm? Another claim to fame? 
> Guido

What a little dictator you are, telling everyone that they should use certain
things because you think they are better.

My apologies to the more reasonable people out in netland, but this jerk is
just intolerable. I don't know very much about linux, but I don't go off half
cocked saying it is the worst environment that ever existed because I use OS/2
and don't use linux. Sounds to me like you don't know OS/2 too well, but you
slag it off anyway.

-- 
Paul Floyd, Information Storage Research Group, Dept. of Electrical Engineering,
University of Manchester, Dover St., Manchester, M13 9PL, UK. FAX 061 275 4512
mbhpfpj@hpc.ee.man.ac.uk               You know the shit has truly hit the fan
Hwyl fawr i bob un.   Think pos/2ive.  when you start calling it a sewage pump.

------------------------------

From: vanpatjm@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Jason Van Patten)
Subject: Re: X editors
Date: 6 Jul 1994 20:55:16 GMT

Hi -

        I checked using xarchie for the two different editors (nedit and
asedit) and all I got were sites that had the same packages.  Could some kind
soul email me if they've got a working version of either?  Perhaps you could
uuencode it and email it to me...

        Like I said earlier, I'd compile them myself, but I don't have the 
neccessary Motif C libs.

        Thanks.

                                                Jason

--
Jason Van Patten                  | If at first you don't succeed, keep |
Clarkson University               | on sucking till you do succeed.     |
vanpatjm@craft.camp.clarkson.edu  |                     - Curly Howard  |
                                  |                 (The Three Stooges) |
            ** Any opinions expressed here are actually
               yours, you just don't know it yet. **
 

------------------------------

From: trebor@dorsai.dorsai.org (Trebor Flow)
Subject: Re: Motif
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 14:44:37 GMT

ACC Bookstores sells SWiM (100% Compatible Motif) for linux and a
variety of other systems.  Thats where I got mine.  

1-800-546-7274 

giv-em a call

Comes with 118+ page documentation. 


------------------------------

From: byron@gemini.cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.i386unix
Subject: Need help building ultimate Linux system
Date: 6 Jul 1994 14:44:44 GMT

A couple of months ago I posted on the same subject. Unfortunately I missed
the deadline so I couldn't order until now. 

Synopsis: My research grant has equipment money. I convinced my advisor that
a Linux system is essential to my research (It is: I'm doing sound/MIDI apps
and being able to hack the sound driver is essential). I have the following
items lined up already:

- P5-90 MB with 512K cache with VLB, PCI, and ISA slots
- ViewSonic 17 monitor
- 32 MB of RAM
- Misc stuff - keyboard, mouse, case

I have about $1000 or so left to spend and I need the following:

- Video card. Must be able to do 1280x1024 NI at 72 Hz or better.
- SCSI host adapter. Which is best? PCI, VLB, or ISA?
- SCSI disk. The University can purchase 340Mb SCSI drives no problem.
- CDROM
- Ethernet cards. I'm going with Don Becker's AMD PCNet/Lance card 
  recommendation here.

The catch is that I have to purchase each of the above items on purchase
orders. That means the total cost cannot exceed $300 for each item.

Anyway the video and SCSI cards are the most problematic items on my list.
Recommendations welcome.

Thanks for any help,

BAJ
-- 
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel - And Using Linux!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------


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