Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #359
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sat, 2 Jul 94 18:13:08 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #359, Volume #2                 Sat, 2 Jul 94 18:13:08 EDT

Contents:
  Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing (Leo L Turetsky)
  Re: Consumer standards (OS/2 vs. Linux discussed) (Leo L Turetsky)
  Re: OS/2 vs. Linux : Stop this discussion! (Leo L Turetsky)
  Re: OS/2 and Linux discussed (Re: TCP/IP: The reason I dumped OS/2) (Leo L Turetsky)
  Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing (Leo L Turetsky)
  Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing (Leo L Turetsky)
  Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing (Leo L Turetsky)
  Re: OS/2 and Linux discussed (Re: TCP/IP: The reason I dumped OS/2) (Leo L Turetsky)
  Re: A sample of what's wrong with OS/2 TCP/IP (Nils Nieuwejaar)
  Which NNTP {server|xmit|xfer} to use? (Martin Schulze)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Leo L Turetsky <professor+@CMU.EDU>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing
Date: Fri,  1 Jul 1994 14:43:41 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 1-Jul-94 Re: Linux better than
OS/2 .. by Chun Hsu@msu.edu 
> As many others have already pointed out, the fixes are free.
> I may be wrong, but it doesn't yet seem to be the norm in the
> software industry to send out free fixes.  I have accumulated
> hundreds of dollars of software and thousands of dollars of 
> hardware.  Yet, not one company has sent me a free patch for
> their software or drivers.  Patches for OS/2 cost just as
> much as Linux, nothing.

The fixes are free only to those with Internet access. Is this so
difficult to understand? Why do Linux users pick up on this right away?
It is the norm to provide costly patches onlt by IBM and MS. Better
companies provide them free. This is a generality, yes, but it almost
always holds.
  
> The only time I might expect free patches is if the cost of
> the patch was negligible compared to how much I spent on 
> the software itself. 

My pain. Why would you expect to pay to fix something that should have
worked in the first place?
  
> > > Now really, try to calm down.  This Linux - OS/2 ( - NextStep?) fight
> > > has me a bit perplexed.  I am a happy user of both OS/2 _and_ Linux.
>  
> > Thanks. Your condecending attitude is noted.
>  
> Consdescending?  I think you really need to calm down.

Fuck you. (Excuse my French.)
  
> > > They are both, IMHO, excelent systems, for almost entirely unrealated
> > > reasons.  Linux doens't run my Word Processor or my spreadsheet, doesn't
> > > connect (except through DOS emulation) to the Netware servers at work,
> > > and takes hours to days to configure properly.  OS/2 doesn't run
> > > Moasic (yet), doesn't compile Unix sources without some work, has
expensive
> > > TCP/IP and X packages and lacks on-line documentation for its API (I
> > > don't own C/Set++ or Borland's compiler).  I am not about to drop
> > > either system right now -- they really aren't all that comparable.
> > > Why all the fuss?
>  
> Well put.  My sentiments exactly.

If you don't understand what the fuss is about and don't care either...
stop posting, I don't want to waste my time replying to someone who
doesn't care.

-Leo

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo Turetsky          |  1) leo@professor.pc.cc.cmu.edu  |
| Sigma Nu              |  2) professor@cmu.edu            |
| 1055 Morewood Ave.    |  Carnegie-Mellon University      |
| Pittsburgh, PA 15213  |  Sophomore, ECE\CS Double Major  |
| (412) 862-2963        |  Nugget: SPIN BHBHY, YAXY?       |
+----------------------esp---------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Leo L Turetsky <professor+@CMU.EDU>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Consumer standards (OS/2 vs. Linux discussed)
Date: Fri,  1 Jul 1994 14:50:18 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 1-Jul-94 Consumer standards
(OS/2 vs.. by Chun Hsu@msu.edu 
> The more I read these posts, the more I think the argument lies
> in differences in "consumer standards".  Several Linux advocates
> have noted that free patches should be sent for OS/2 since you
> pay for it.  Since Linux is free, there is no reason to expect
> this.

Correct.
  
> First of all, let me point out that no OS is even close to
> being bug free.  Many OS/2 users have stated that OS/2
> is extremely stable for them.  Others get Trap errors every
> few hours.  Likewise, there are differing opinions on Linux.
> I myself get occasion lockups from either tin or Openlook.

But the problems in Linux are easily solved. Delete the OS and go to
Windblows or something. Didn't cost anything.
  
> So, given that there are bugs in every operating system as well
> as application software, who should pay for the patches that
> are necessary?  I have never received a patch for free from
> any software or hardware vendor.  It's doubtful that I am

I get new drivers from SoundBlaster, ATI, and NEC continously. If you
don't, complain.

> the only one.  So why set different standards for IBM and
> OS/2?  If and when it becomes the norm in the software industry
> to send free fixes, I will demand the same for OS/2.  When
> you consider how low OS/2 is priced, it doesn't seem
> reasonable at all to expect IBM to send 20+ disks to each user.

It doens't seem reasonable to make users pay for a broken OS and then
not fix it for them for free either.

> For my $70 investment in OS/2 2.1, I expect technical support
> for free.  I also expect that IBM will make patches available
> and not try to profit from them.  I have been satisfied on
> both cases.

Are you kidding? A disk costs .25 and to ship it to your house costs
2.00 at most. How much is a patch from OS/2 by mail? I highly doubt it
is 2.25.
  
> Of course there is the argument that the software is too
> buggy in the first place.  Somone earlier stated that OS/2
> is "broken" and should never have been released.  Fine, vote
> with your pocketbooks and "return" it.  If the product is
> that bad, it will die a horrible death in the markeplace. 
> Obviously, many user have already voted on OS/2, and the
> results are pretty good. 

Many users jumped on the OS/2 bandwagon before they knew what was wrong
with it. Now it's too late and they must live with it. No one made the
argument that software is too buggy in the first place. You did. And
it's a dumb argument. Does this mean software should never be released?

-Leo

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo Turetsky          |  1) leo@professor.pc.cc.cmu.edu  |
| Sigma Nu              |  2) professor@cmu.edu            |
| 1055 Morewood Ave.    |  Carnegie-Mellon University      |
| Pittsburgh, PA 15213  |  Sophomore, ECE\CS Double Major  |
| (412) 862-2963        |  Nugget: SPIN BHBHY, YAXY?       |
+----------------------esp---------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Leo L Turetsky <professor+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: OS/2 vs. Linux : Stop this discussion!
Date: Fri,  1 Jul 1994 14:51:45 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 1-Jul-94 OS/2 vs. Linux : Stop
this .. by Martin Wiesenfeldt@dali. 
> I think it's time to stop this thread! Both systems have their pros and 
> cons, their virtues and limitations. Like many other people I use both 
> systems in parllel, some tasks I can do better with the first system, 
> other tasks better with the other one. 
> If I was not satisfied with one system I could always erase it from my HD 
> but never would than expect other people to do so, too!

Did anyone ask for your opinion? I'm having fun... I suspect others are
too. Don't ruin our fun at the expense of your sanity. Don't read the
posts. Hitting the 'n' key is hard, huh?

-Leo

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo Turetsky          |  1) leo@professor.pc.cc.cmu.edu  |
| Sigma Nu              |  2) professor@cmu.edu            |
| 1055 Morewood Ave.    |  Carnegie-Mellon University      |
| Pittsburgh, PA 15213  |  Sophomore, ECE\CS Double Major  |
| (412) 862-2963        |  Nugget: SPIN BHBHY, YAXY?       |
+----------------------esp---------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Leo L Turetsky <professor+@CMU.EDU>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and Linux discussed (Re: TCP/IP: The reason I dumped OS/2)
Date: Fri,  1 Jul 1994 14:55:44 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 1-Jul-94 Re: OS/2 and Linux
discusse.. by Tim Cutts@cus.cam.ac.uk 
> But fvwm has no file management, no drag-and-drop... (incidentally, I agree,
> I use fvwm rather than olwm, but olwm is closer to WPS in
functionality, which
> was why I chose it for the comparison).

Use xfilemanager. Still uses less RAM than OpenLook.
  
> What do you have left when you remove PM from OS/2?  A hell of a lot!  A
> command shell, a powerful scripting language (REXX), oodles of text-mode 
> OS/2 programs, GCC, virtually every GNU package in existence, in fact...
> I'll tell you one thing, if Linux did not have X, I'd never use it.  I use
> it mostly for networking and getting multiple text sessions on remote hosts.
> X is the best way of doing this.

You have all of this in Linux plus built in networking. You can't claim
GNU products either. They are not part of the OS distribution. Linux
packages these things, OS/2 does not.
  
> >> And a one disk installation of Linux can't really do anything, can
it?  OK,
> >> you could feasibly make a boot disk with a few TCP/IP clients on it,
> >but you'd
> >> have to remove so much stuff that it would be severely crippled.
>  
> >It can do plenty.
>  
> Given NFS.  Without NFS, rather less.

Fine, given NFS.

-Leo

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo Turetsky          |  1) leo@professor.pc.cc.cmu.edu  |
| Sigma Nu              |  2) professor@cmu.edu            |
| 1055 Morewood Ave.    |  Carnegie-Mellon University      |
| Pittsburgh, PA 15213  |  Sophomore, ECE\CS Double Major  |
| (412) 862-2963        |  Nugget: SPIN BHBHY, YAXY?       |
+----------------------esp---------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Leo L Turetsky <professor+@CMU.EDU>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing
Date: Sat,  2 Jul 1994 16:00:13 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 2-Jul-94 Re: Linux better than
OS/2 .. by Chun Hsu@msu.edu 
> By your own reasoning, patches for Linux are not free.  Even
> worse, Linux now costs money to obtain.

What? How is Linux not free if you have Internet access? By my own
reasoning Linux patches are not free, sure, but show me people who use
Linux everyday, with no other OS, and don't have Internet access.
Internet and Linux go hand in hand... you can't have one without the
other. I had OS/2 before I had Internet access. I no longer have OS/2.

-Leo

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo Turetsky          |  1) leo@professor.pc.cc.cmu.edu  |
| Sigma Nu              |  2) professor@cmu.edu            |
| 1055 Morewood Ave.    |  Carnegie-Mellon University      |
| Pittsburgh, PA 15213  |  Sophomore, ECE\CS Double Major  |
| (412) 862-2963        |  Nugget: SPIN BHBHY, YAXY?       |
+----------------------esp---------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Leo L Turetsky <professor+@CMU.EDU>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing
Date: Sat,  2 Jul 1994 16:05:54 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 2-Jul-94 Re: Linux better than
OS/2 .. by Chun Hsu@msu.edu 
> Leo L Turetsky (professor+@CMU.EDU) wrote:
> : Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 1-Jul-94 Re: Linux better than
> : OS/2 .. by Chun Hsu@msu.edu 
> : How old was your linux installation? Your installation sounds ancient.
> : It's like a completely different version in OS/2 terms. If your
> : installation was ancient and you had to upgrade... whay are you agruing?
> : Of course you needed to upgrade.
>  
> One year is hardly ancient.  If OS/2 software required yearly updates,
> you would complain about that too.  I was replying to your argument:

No, one year is ancient when talking about an OS that gets a new beta
kernal each week. I've gone from 1.1.18 to 1.1.24 in this last month. If
your kernel is still .99.?? I don't even want to hear about your Mosaic
problems because they are entirely your fault for not keeping up. If
OS/2 had yearly updates, maybe IBM would have gotten it right by now.
  
> > Frequent patches being available doesn't mean you should upgrade. If you
> > join #linux on irc and type linuxbot: version, you'll get the following
> > message:
> >     The current version of Linux is 1.0.9. The most recent test kernel
> > is 1.1.24.
>  
> > Notice the words test kernel.
>  
> Again, I was pointing out the fact the upgrades are necessary under
> Linux.  More so than I had originally expected.  It's not like I
> was trying to run some obscure software package.  It was Mosaic.
> Under your argument that no patch is free unless it's sent to
> you, this upgrade cost me a fortune!

They are not necessary if you keep away from the beta kernels. Also, if
you look on most ftp sites you'll find that an old version of Mosaic is
there which would have worked even with your one year old installation.
Notice you can get GCC 2.4.5 still even though 2.5.8 is out.
  
> : > > Linux is free. All applications are compelling. It wasn't
designed to be
> : > > used in the office, and yet there are plenty of companied who do so.
> : > > OS/2 is broken; the only thing you depend on it to do is not be
> : > > compatible (like Linux) and cost money (not like Linux). SCO is SCO.
> : >  
> : > > -Leo
> : >  
> : > All applications are compelling?  I am not sure what you mean by
> : > that.  Please stop driveling about OS/2 being broken.  There are
> : > satisfied and unsatisfied OS/2 users.  There are satisifed and
> : > unsatisified Linux users.  Your extreme bias against OS/2 only
> : > makes your arguments more ineffective.
>  
> : Anything that is free and comes with source and does even half of what I
> : want it to do, is compelling to me. There's a russian saying, "there are
> : many horses in Russia." That is what your paragraph reminds me of. The
> : fact that you had a moot point to start and continued to elaborate on it
> : my providing your ancient Linux as an example, makes your argument
> : ineffective, period.
>  
> : -Leo
>  
> Calling my Linux installation "ancient" makes for a poor excuse.
> It's not 5 years old, not 3, not 2, just 1 year old.

Your installation IS ancient. You're a master's student in ECE, why
don't you understant that the computer industry changes with the blink
of an eye?

-Leo

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo Turetsky          |  1) leo@professor.pc.cc.cmu.edu  |
| Sigma Nu              |  2) professor@cmu.edu            |
| 1055 Morewood Ave.    |  Carnegie-Mellon University      |
| Pittsburgh, PA 15213  |  Sophomore, ECE\CS Double Major  |
| (412) 862-2963        |  Nugget: SPIN BHBHY, YAXY?       |
+----------------------esp---------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Leo L Turetsky <professor+@CMU.EDU>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing
Date: Sat,  2 Jul 1994 16:09:55 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 2-Jul-94 Re: Linux better than
OS/2 .. by Chun Hsu@msu.edu 
> Is it so difficult for you to understand that IBM does not
> profit from providing these fixes?  Once again, by your own
> argument, patches for Linux are also not free.

I don't believe this at all. My father is a licsensed IBM dealer and
makes money of the silliest things. Just from what I've seen, I don't
believe. Provide me a figure from IBM and I'll change my mind.
  
> I truly hope that I am wrong and that most companies send
> users patches for free.  However, it has not happened for
> me yet.  I am curious, does anyone know which companies
> "send" patches for free and which ones don't.  Is it really
> the norm for better companies or just for more expensive
> products?  I suspect the latter.

I get patches and driver version upgrades constantly from ATI, NEC, and
SoundBlaster. These are not expensive products that I bought from
them... just the regular joe blow product.

-Leo

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo Turetsky          |  1) leo@professor.pc.cc.cmu.edu  |
| Sigma Nu              |  2) professor@cmu.edu            |
| 1055 Morewood Ave.    |  Carnegie-Mellon University      |
| Pittsburgh, PA 15213  |  Sophomore, ECE\CS Double Major  |
| (412) 862-2963        |  Nugget: SPIN BHBHY, YAXY?       |
+----------------------esp---------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Leo L Turetsky <professor+@CMU.EDU>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2 and Linux discussed (Re: TCP/IP: The reason I dumped OS/2)
Date: Sat,  2 Jul 1994 16:12:53 -0400

Excerpts from netnews.comp.os.linux.misc: 2-Jul-94 Re: OS/2 and Linux
discusse.. by Chun Hsu@msu.edu 
> GNU products are "packaged" with Linux only if you use one of the
> standard distributions.  That does not make them any more a part 
> of Linux as in OS/2.  GNU products are simply "available" in both
> OS'es.  Live with it.

Huh? Did you read this before you sent it? You said they are packaged
with Linux only if you install Linux? We are comparing the OS/2
distribution with a Linux distribution, not a Linux barebones. Thus, GNU
comes with Linux. Thus, GNU does not come with OS/2. Where are you
taking a left when you should be making a right?

-Leo

+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Leo Turetsky          |  1) leo@professor.pc.cc.cmu.edu  |
| Sigma Nu              |  2) professor@cmu.edu            |
| 1055 Morewood Ave.    |  Carnegie-Mellon University      |
| Pittsburgh, PA 15213  |  Sophomore, ECE\CS Double Major  |
| (412) 862-2963        |  Nugget: SPIN BHBHY, YAXY?       |
+----------------------esp---------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: nils@cs.dartmouth.edu (Nils Nieuwejaar)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: A sample of what's wrong with OS/2 TCP/IP
Date: 02 Jul 1994 21:07:41 GMT

southiea@JSP.UMontreal.CA (Southiere Alain) writes:
      Just a point here. Does this linux distribution comes with a GUI ?
   A friend of mine tried Linux a while back and with Xwindow, it was
   near 80 mb ! (at least, that what he told me). That probably
   wouldn't fit on 30 floppies ! OS/2 is about 40 mb installed
   (not sure for the beta). Linux as near twice as big with X !

I got a minimal X installation (TinyX) on one floppy.  The 80MB he got
may have included the sources, a zillion fonts and/or applications,
libraries for developing X applications, as well as a number of
redundant files (e.g. multiple servers for different video cards,
several window managers, etc).

It is possible to have 80MB of X-related stuff, but it is certainly
not necessary.


------------------------------

From: joey@infodrom.north.de (Martin Schulze)
Subject: Which NNTP {server|xmit|xfer} to use?
Date: Sat, 2 Jul 1994 16:23:09 GMT

Firstly let's say one thing: I don't want to run INN!

I have CNews installed fine. Now for some reason I want to have a nntp
server, xmit and xfer installed over it.

The problem is that I cannot find a package that is ported/configured
for Linux. I found a package called nntp-5.11.tar.gz, but it won't
compile. It tries to get <sys/fs.h> and <fstab.h>, which it doesn't
find.

All the documentation looks fine and I was hungry about installing it,
but as I wrote, it won't compile.

There must be a package for nntp. Why? Because in some slackware
distribs there is an in.nntpd. So there must exist some!!!

Who can help me?

regards,

Joey

-- 
\  Martin Schulze * Artillerieweg 55a * 26129 Oldenburg * 77 805 84 \
 \  joey@infodrom.north.de                     Line 0 & Fax: 777 884 \
  \  2:2426/2060.4    Gimme the Future with a modern Girl  - Meatloaf \

------------------------------


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