Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #324
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Mon, 27 Jun 94 20:13:23 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #324, Volume #2                Mon, 27 Jun 94 20:13:23 EDT

Contents:
  Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing (Andrew)
  Re: sco motif/iBCS/Linux ?? (Cyrill Vatomsky)
  Re: TCP/IP: The reason I dumped OS/2 (Robert W. Cashman)
  termMosaic2.4.1 hotlist size?? (Cyrill Vatomsky)
  Re: Why won't my NN work?........ (Ming You Wu)
  Re: Watching a user on an tty? (Dan Foster)
  term114 ... help!!! (Andrew C. F. Wong)
  Re: Linux.... On a Sparc? (Brandon S. Allbery)
  Re: term114 ... help!!! (George N. Henderson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux better than OS/2 for net surfing
From: ajross@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrew)
Date: 27 Jun 94 16:23:52 GMT

wgsohne@tucson.Princeton.EDU (William Guido Sohne) writes:

>In article <27b_9406260300@genesplicer.org>,
>Mark Woolworth <Mark.Woolworth@choice.genesplicer.org> wrote:

>Yes. Or is a Dell computer not 'compatible' enough ? OS/2 was obviously the
>problem here.

>>Not all hardware is equal. OS/2 demands more than any other system you have
>>mentioned. If it doesnt work on your (or the schools) system(s), then you have
>>a problem. But dont go spread the word that it doesnt work on anyones hardware
>>because I can prove you wrong. 


>Stop trying to blame OS/2's crashes on hardware. Such propaganda will
>only make some poor guy believe hardware is the solution. If it crashes on
>a Dell computer then most likely it will crash Joe User's machine too 
>when using the same software.

That's not what he was saying.  He made the point that _you_ shouldn't
blame the crashes on OS/2 exclusively, since the stability record of
his (and mine, for that matter) system "proves" that OS/2 is (or at
least can be) quite stable indeed.

>BTW, I'll bet Linux demands more of the hardware. It has to since it 
>performs so much better and quicker than OS/2. By doing more work, it 
>stresses the system more. OS/2 is a good system. It's not nearly as great 
>as you think it is though. The HPFS support is a kludge.

Well, first, Linux itself really doesn't perform much (or at least
measurably) quicker than OS/2.  What you probably mean is that the
interface performance under X is faster than OS/2's PM/WPS.  This
really should not be much of a surprise.  The WPS is a large,
language-independent (i.e. heavily dereference-dependent/partially
interpreted) object model with a comprehensive (and, IMHO, extremely
powerful and slick) user interface class hierarchy.  Fvwm (which I
assume you are using) is a minimal window manager.  The WPS is slower
because it does so much more.  I, for one, am willing to trade some
performance for that functionality.  Not that I have anything against
Linux, of course.

IBM:  how about a Linux port of the SOM libraries?  WPS under Linux
would be heaven.    Ah well, I suppose we can still hope for that new
X11r6 whatchamacalit CORBA based object model.

Second, I'm a bit perplexed about your terming "HPFS Support" a
"cludge."  You do realize, of course, that HPFS is OS/2's native
filesystem and as such the use of the term "support" is kind of a
misnomer (granted, a semantic problem only).  I've been pretty pleased
with HPFS in general, and I'd be interested to know exactly how you
found it a "cludge."


>Well, if I could get prices like yours and free software from IBM too, I 
>would still stay with Linux. It works faster and does more of what I want.

>>And I dont call a system that is online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, being
>>used constantly (both by me and the users of my BBS), which doesnt even get
>>rebooted for weeks at a time, buggy nor inferior. I do alot of programming.
>>Creating both DOS and OS/2 apps. OS/2 crash protection is AWESOME! Oh, and when

>What crash protection ? We all know it's a bad joke. In theory, OS/2 can
>eliminate lots of crashes. Problem is when a PM app crashes it can bring 
>down the system.

OK, this flame war is starting to get out of hand.  That statement is
flatly incorrect.  PM apps, like all OS/2 apps, are insulated from
other processes using precicely the same mechanism that Linux uses
(the 80386 page tables).  An application crash is no more able to
affect the system than a crash in a Linux process.  Flame all you like
about the OS/2 kernel stability (which I would probably admit is less
than linux -- having seen no linux kernel crashes and one under OS/2),
but please make sure your information is correct.

>>How does this differ from DOS or Windows? Linux is not something I can walk
>>into a store and order, nor can I get it when I order my new system. Besides,
>>none of the stuff I run would run as fast as it does with OS/2. I have a friend
>>that has a Linux box setup. From what he has told me about the DOS emulation, I
>>would loose about 50% of my productivity under Linux. I dont need that.
>>

>That's the OS/2 anachronism. Buy a new improved OS to run apps that depend
>on an old phucked OS. Run DOS under OS/2. Never will you be free of it.
>If the software were free in the first place and with source, it would
>have been native by now.

Oh god, are you going to turn this into another Gnu/GPL flame war?  
Also:  phucked?

>The one bug I run into has long since disappeared. Unlike you I don't 
>have to live with bugs. I just haven't encountered others and I hope it 
>stays that way. 

>Each release of Linux also gets better and better. Not every year as with 
>OS/2 but every two weeks or so.

I might dispute "better and better" if you mean by that more features.
I run a 1.0.8 kernel.  What exactly would I gain by upgrading?  OS/2
upgrades typically come with much more than bug fixes;  they include
new functionality as well.  Remember that Linux is still in its
version 1 release.  We have yet to see if this style of development
lends itself to large changes/additions to the feature set.

One example (one of my pet peeves with Unix in general):  I want
threads!  REAL threads, none of this fork-and-use-shared-memory stuff.
Does POSIX specify any particular thread API? (seriously, I don't
know, but hope that it does somewhere).  X supports threads now,
(well, r6 isn't out for Linux yet, but will be) how about Linux?  This
would be a major change in the OS's feature set.  I hope that the
distributed development model that has served Linux so well in its
formative years proves able to carry it into versions 2 and beyond,
but I am not sure.  I _do_ know, however, that OS/2 will continue to
grow and change, even if it only does so over 1-year intervals.

[something about buying MS Word if there was a free clone]

>So if it helps you change MS and Word for Windows to your favorite 
>package from your favorite company. Nice try at evading the question though.

OK, I'll bite.  Hell yes, I'd use the free clone.  Call me when one
appears.  Therein lies the real problem with the FSF mentality.  Some
software is simply to big to be developed free.  Without exception,
all GPL'ed software out there was developed by a small group of
people, or piecewise by several small groups.  Look at emacs -- a huge
package, to be sure, but the made up of jillions of little hacks --
elisp programs, X extensions, GNUS, etc...  The core program itself
was written by just one guy (take a guess who).  Now look at Word/Ami
Pro/Wordperfect -- just as large and complicated, but everything has
been integrated. The whole has been built from the bottom up, as it
were.  The spell checkers have to have an interface that looks more or
less like the file dialogs, the online help has to use the
same keystrokes as the main editing screen, etc...  Now go back to
emacs and look at ispell, dired, and info.  See what I mean.  Writing
a large, well-designed word processor using the same model as emacs
would take _decades_.

I may be wrong though.  Call me when you get your source to Gnu-Write
1.0 ;)

>Ah, smarting about MS huh ? Be thankful for how far they brought the 
>lowest common denominator. I think they'll be getting lots of your dimes 
>in a couple of years. They make the best apps. Oh, I forgot, you don't 
>mind using inferior products.

Ick, enough about this "inferior" nonsense.  OS/2 is inferior for
what?  X Development?  Internet connectivity?  Terminal serving?  Yes.
Mission-critical DOS/Win apps?  Hardly.  They really aren't all that
comparable, you know.  Like (I assume) many people out there, I use
both OS/2 and Linux happily.  But seriously, if I had to choose just
one or the other, I would go with OS/2.  I find the WPS to be a much
more productive work environment than the standard X desktop, software
compatibility is _much_ better under OS/2 (really - name a major
package from anywhere that runs under Linux and not OS/2.  I honestly
can't think of one right now).  Setup and configuration is orders of
magnitude easier, if more limited.  (Took me several days to get X
running, once I installed Linux.  Term also refused to run "out of the
box."  Don't even ask me about getting my printer set up with gs and
lpd.)

Nevertheless, I use Linux.  I like Linux -- very much.  I hope only
the best for Linux in the coming years.  I feel largely the same about
OS/2, and really don't understand why you seem to, well, _hate_ it.
Don't use it, if you like, but don't flame it unnecesarily.  Save the
flames for Windows ;)

Andy Ross
ajross@husc.harvard.edu



------------------------------

From: cyrillv@netcom.com (Cyrill Vatomsky)
Subject: Re: sco motif/iBCS/Linux ??
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 21:21:46 GMT

Mike Jagdis (jaggy@purplet.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: * In message <cyrillvCrpDFw.F3L@netcom.com>, Cyrill Vatomsky said:

: CV> I have SCO installed on my second drive and it has motif. Is
: CV> it possible to use it for Linux, maybe vie iBCS?

: Yes and no. Yes you can run it under iBCS. But first you have to get at it. 
: It is probably on an EAFS filesystem (unsupported by Linux) on a divvy 
: subpartition (unsupported by Linux) of a partition on your second HD. Only 
: the old SYSV filesystems are supported on non-divvied partitions. Now if you 
: had a second _machine_ with it on running NFS...

:                                 Mike  
:  
I can reinstall SCO on another machine. But unfortunately I do not have
network here. (We live in stone ages). Is it possible to read/grab SCO
Motif from distribution floppies (SCO original)?  Verbose suggestions 
are really appreciated, since I am a four months linux user with no
prior unix or programming experience.

Thanks
-- 

========================================================================
Cyrill Vatomsky         |      Home     :      1(408)479-1528          |
                        |      Gets     :      1(408)464-0556          |
                        |      Fax      :      1(408)464-0558          |
                        |      Internet :      cyrillv@netcom.com      |
========================================================================

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: cashman@ll.mit.edu (Robert W. Cashman)
Subject: Re: TCP/IP: The reason I dumped OS/2
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 21:11:32 GMT

  I am not going to repeat all the previous postings on the subject, they are
a bit long.  I just want to say why I am running Linux on what used to be an
OS/2 partition on my hard disk.  I used to run DOS and Windows and was
frustrated with the lack of stability.  I was unable to multitask.  I bought
OS/2 2.0 and waited for the support for my hardware.  Installing OS/2 was no
easy task.  I had video problems, sound problems, ect...  After the CSD or 
whatever they called the patch to 2.0 came out I worked on it and had the 
system running.  At least I could use most of my hardware.  Then I tried to
multitask.  For the most part it was stable... No complaints.  My system was
a 386-40mhz so I realized that it was not fast enough to begin with and I 
went back to DOS/Windows, because it still had more support for hardware.
Also it seemed the Windows programmers where getting better at writing 
stable software.  When OS/2 2.1 came out I got a copy.  It was a much easier
install, and the support was much better.  At this time I've been exposed
to the internet and now my reason for multitasking is not for modeming but for
using usenet and such.  Well, at my work I bought the TCP/IP add on for OS/2.
I am not sure, but I think it was version 2.0 or something like that.  Well
it was a mess!  It did not support Western Digital cards directly.  I suppose
I could have found a driver somewhere, but for that price!  It should have
been there.  Then I thought I would try the SLIP...  Why is the startup
text based???  Everything else in OS/2 is usually graphical?  I don't know, 
it seemed that I was working hard to get something that should be easy to
do since I spend a great deal of money on it.

  I never tried Linux because I was afraid it would be like OS/2, heck it was
free!  What kind of support could it have?  Just a few weeks ago I went to a
local area computer show and there was someone selling InfoMagic CDROMs... 
Well that was the one thing I liked about OS/2 2.1... The CD install.  So I
asked the vendor if Linux supported my SoundBlaster CDROM drive...  I was
suprised that it did!! And for $20, I bought it, thinking it would waste a
day on me but that would be it.  I had to figure out how the CD was set up
and I found the slackware distribution.  The install was as simple as making
the floppies, partitioning my disk, and running install, with meny choices.
Something I would expect from a commercial package but not a free one.  The
install was smooth.  The video support was there and the tape drive (floppy
tape drive) was there too!!  All for free.  Also a C compiler which I did not
buy for OS/2 because I am not a professional programmer, but with a free 
compiler, I am finding that I like writing programs!!  I guess it depends on
your needs.  And of course I can use the latest internet tools that are
written for X on my system and it is great!!

--Robert Cashman
  MIT Lincoln Laboratory
  cash@ll.mit.edu


------------------------------

From: cyrillv@netcom.com (Cyrill Vatomsky)
Subject: termMosaic2.4.1 hotlist size??
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 22:26:48 GMT


I wonder if anybody can help me. I am unable to change geometry of the 
hotlist of Mosaic2.4.1+term. I do not have Motif, so I had to use the
binary from sunsite. Unfortunately my display is only 640x480 and apparently
the binary was compiled with hotlist being over 700 in width. 

I can change appropriate resources with resource editor, but when I
put necessary lines in the .Xresources file it does not work. I was able to 
change Mosaic's geometry to fit in my screen, but not the hotlist.

I tried setting 
.Mosaic.shell.formdialog_popup.formdialog.frame.form
.Mosaic.shell.formdialog_popup.formdialog.frame.
.Mosaic.shell.formdialog_popup.formdialog
.Mosaic.shell.formdialog_popup.
to set to .width: 600
to no result. Even had resource editor save settings in my .Xresources
file. 

What could be the problem??
-- 

========================================================================
Cyrill Vatomsky         |      Home     :      1(408)479-1528          |
                        |      Gets     :      1(408)464-0556          |
                        |      Fax      :      1(408)464-0558          |
                        |      Internet :      cyrillv@netcom.com      |
========================================================================

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.help
From: mywu@cantor.math.purdue.edu (Ming You Wu)
Subject: Re: Why won't my NN work?........
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 22:11:46 GMT

     Does anybody know how to fix the following problem?
     a) After I did fdisk(dos), my computer can't be started on hard
drive, instead , the IBM PS/1 machine asks to enter boot disk each time
I turn on it.
      b ) I installed LILO in my computer(4M RAM, 250M hard drive),
However, some error messge comes up when I reboot it, such as
" I/O error", " unable to  read superblocks"

   Thanks!
please email to mywu@math.purdue.edu


------------------------------

From: dsfoster@marlin.ssnet.com (Dan Foster)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin
Subject: Re: Watching a user on an tty?
Date: 27 Jun 1994 19:14:58 -0400

>In article <2ull0m$l69@nwfocus.wa.com>,
>Joe Pannon <danubius@coho.halcyon.com> wrote:
>
>>And finding out passwords, eh?  I don't mean just login, but PGP, for
>>instance.  I sure wouldn't appreciate my SysAdmin doing that to me.
>
Besides, I have to mention...I might be slightly biased, being a sysadmin
myself, I'd say maybe 99% of the sysadmins are honest and ethical. In the
rare, off chance that you actually come across someone that is less than
honest and ethical; and he/she has privs, then you ultimately lose because
with privileges, he/she can modify the system to do any nefarious deed(s)
he/she wants it to. In that case, the safest thing would be to 1) report
him/her or 2) not use the system at all.

Think about it... what's preventing a corrupt sysadmin with privs from
modifying pgp, for instance?

Thank goodness at the last site (and is true to some extent to many other
places) I've had the fortune of working with friendly, honest, and ethical
co-workers. Besides, we all signed agreements against this kind of thing,
and I've seen my top supervisor fire people without a second thought upon
*any* discovery of any no-no deeds by computing people in a position of trust.
In fact, the people (one was a new employee of mine, sad to say) were indeed
subject to prosecution - at least on the federal level.

Securest machine (relatively speaking) that you can trust is a machine that
only you have privs on. All others, it boils down to faith, and some decency,
imho.

But of course, this is kinda off the point. Back to our regularly scheduled
Linux discussion. :-)

-Dan
Internet:       dsfoster@ssnet.com


------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
From: h9311310@hkusub (Andrew C. F. Wong)
Subject: term114 ... help!!!
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 00:43:04 GMT

Dear Linux-mates,

        I am new to term, and I compiled the term114 on my 486 box and
        on my school Sun IPC workstation.

        When I type "term -r -n off" on Remote:

                term 1.12

        Then I type "term -v /dev/modem" on Local:

                term 1.14

        ...why? it is the same source ....but ...hmmm

        This is not the problem, but the next; when I type "trsh" on
        local, I get this kind of stuff:

        :timed out at 51 trans 1
        :timed out at 51 trans 1
        :timed out at 51 trans 2
        :timed out at 51 trans 2
        :timed out at 51 trans 3
        :timed out at 51 trans 3
        :timed out at 51 trans 4
        :timed out at 51 trans 4
        :timed out at 51 trans 5
        :timed out at 51 trans 5
        :timed out at 51 trans 6
        :timed out at 51 trans 6
        :timed out at 51 trans 7
        :timed out at 51 trans 7
         ...... about 20 to 30 line of similar things

        then "Broken pipe" ... Wow...

        I also find that if value '51' changes as I change the the
        baudrate, windows and timeout at the .term/termrc ....why?

        Yeah, one more thing, when I run 'linecheck', the log file
        gets nothing but "Handshaking" ..... is it a problem ?

        The line is a 7-1-E one, so would you telling me how to set
        everything ok! Please email me directly, thanks again!!!!!

Poor Andrew


------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: Linux.... On a Sparc?
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 21:23:40 GMT

In article <1994Jun24.093231.6984@muvms6>, copley1@muvms6.wvnet.edu (Ronald Copley) says:
+---------------
| In article <uUB1kukh1K09066yn@shore.net>, bjb@shore.net (Beverly J. Brown) writes:
| > In article <merlyn.771807115@winternet.com>, Doug McIntyre wrote:
| >> No, Linux isn't ported to the Sparc. But why would you? Solaris (V1.1B) is 
| >> much more stable, and Linux is trying to copy alot of it. By owning
| > Solaris and stable do not belong in the same sentence without a NOT in 
| 
| By Solaris 1.1, he means SunOS 4.1.3, which is quite stable and a pleasure to
| use.
+------------->8

Actually, Linux being much like SVR4 at the programming API level and with ELF
executables and shared libraries in the future, it's evolving toward what
Solaris 2.x would be if it were stable.  One hopes that Solaris 2.x is
evolving in the same direction :-)

++Brandon
-- 
Brandon S. Allbery         kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org          bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org
Friends don't let friends load Windows NT.              Linux iBCS2 emulation

------------------------------

From: gnh1@Isis.MsState.Edu (George N. Henderson)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Re: term114 ... help!!!
Date: 27 Jun 1994 23:20:22 GMT

Andrew C. F. Wong (h9311310@hkusub) wrote:

:       When I type "term -r -n off" on Remote:
:               term 1.12
:       Then I type "term -v /dev/modem" on Local:
:               term 1.14
:       ...why? it is the same source ....but ...hmmm
:       This is not the problem, but the next; when I type "trsh" on
:       local, I get this kind of stuff:

:       :timed out at 51 trans 1
:        ...... about 20 to 30 line of similar things

:       then "Broken pipe" ... Wow...

:       I also find that if value '51' changes as I change the the
:       baudrate, windows and timeout at the .term/termrc ....why?

:       Yeah, one more thing, when I run 'linecheck', the log file
:       gets nothing but "Handshaking" ..... is it a problem ?

:       The line is a 7-1-E one, so would you telling me how to set
:       everything ok! Please email me directly, thanks again!!!!!

Hi there.

I just lost my computer to a bolt of lightning, (0-() so I don't have any docs to back up what I say, but as far as I can remember, the line needs to be 8, not 7...

also, when i tried to run linecheck the first time, i also just got the handshaking line, i found out it was because i hadn't suspended my modem program before i ran the check.  so make sure you've done that.  

as for the timeout problems, i dn't know, i never got them solved on my machine.  0-)  i got ppp to work, though.

be happy...


- Stormy the happinator     "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ
                             Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
  IU sounds good to me.      Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
  Yes, that's a hint.        Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."

------------------------------


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