Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #155
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sun, 22 May 94 20:13:15 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #155, Volume #2                Sun, 22 May 94 20:13:15 EDT

Contents:
  Re: BRIEF/vi Compatible GUI Text Editor (Shyamal Prasad)
  3 instnaces of vaporware (Frank Lofaro)
  Linux and Bernoulli? (Edsel Adap)
  Re: BRIEF/vi Compatible GUI Text Editor (lilo (SpRiNg 94 GpA 3.64))
  Re: BRIEF/vi Compatible GUI Text Editor (lilo (SpRiNg 94 GpA 3.64))
  Re: software communists was Re: BRIEF/vi C (Louis P. Kruger)
  Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7 (Jim Morris)
  Re: Wait'll you see the May 16th PCWEEK... (Peter Desnoyers)
  Xwindow screen saver/lock program (/bin/bash)
  Re: BRIEF/vi Compatible GUI Text Editor (Bill Hogan)
  Re: vi dd command dosn't work properly sometimes (Thomas Vogler)
  Fax Software for Linux (Edsel Adap)
  Re: Beware: Just Computers (Randy Just)
  Re: Linux for the masses? (WordProcessing again) (Hui-Hui Hu)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shyamal@seas.smu.edu (Shyamal Prasad)
Subject: Re: BRIEF/vi Compatible GUI Text Editor
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 04:12:25 GMT

In article <DHOLLAND.94May20033425@husc9.harvard.edu>,
David Holland <dholland@husc9.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>shyamal@seas.smu.edu's message of Wed, 18 May 1994 16:42:51 GMT said:
>
> > To be honest I don't see what a non-free editor is doing in a linux
> > newsgroup ;-)
>
>;-) or not, this is exactly the sort of comment, and attitude, that is
>keeping the major software companies from supporting Linux. Right now
>I can afford to use Linux, because I don't need my computer for much
>besides telnet. 

I stuck that smiley there for a reason. I guess I should be more
explicit. I *really* don't care that people write not GPL or PD
software aimed at Linux, and that people go out and buy it.  I am also
almost happy to see people write and sell software for this OS, I mean
it is a sign of growing up. 

But all those "major" software companies (who do MSDOG, Windoze and
Solaris for a few million bucks) had better get used to this attitude.
Because I think they *are * corrupting an ideal which I really like
and believe in.  So I will always complain just to remind people that
there *is* an ideal somewhere in Linux and the FSF and its about a
certain kind of intellectual freedom. Hey, I buy manuals from the FSF.
Its not paying out bucks that bothers me.

>If I needed to publish a book, or keep complicated
>accounts, or do graphics processing, I'd probably have to break out
>fdisk and go back to DOS and maybe Windows. 

You don't have to. You can do all this (specially writing a book) on
Linux. A Linux system is not designed for doing telnet. Its designed
for doing writing (groff/TeX), for drawing (xfig), for database
packages (Postgres/Ingres), for programming other applications, and
then for networking (and telnet). Linux is growing, and it is UNIX =>
you cannot write your accounts the same way you did on a PC. 

I keep accounts on Linux (I use awk and a few other tools - its
great).  I used to keep class grades on a UNIX box (== Linux). After I
entered them, I'd run a shell script and get a beautifully type set
document with bar graphs and all...maybe I should have saved all that
stuff and made an "application".

>Why? Because the necessary
>applications simply do not exist for Linux. Period.
>

I have not made any real contribution to Linux (other than help other
newbies like myself and find and report/fix an occaisonal bug) though
I wish I could some day. I also wish people who wanted "applications"
would write them or pay someone to write them for all of us so that
Linux would remain what it is today - a useful and free open system.

>Until such time as they do, Linux will remain a marginal hacker's OS
>the rest of the world views with a mixture of suspicion and fear.

Thats okay by me! Look at the *quality* of Linux, it would not bother
me if everyone else decided to miss out on it. 

BTW no hard feelings to anyone here (this is not a flame)! I *agree*
to people writing proprietary stuff on Linux, but am just a loudmouth
who'd like to let everyone else know why it need not happen if we all
tried hard enough. 

Cheers!
Shyamal
-- 
Shyamal Prasad, Department of Computer Science
Southern Methodist University, Dallas TX 75275, USA

------------------------------

From: ftlofaro@unlv.edu (Frank Lofaro)
Subject: 3 instnaces of vaporware
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:17:17 GMT

What are 3 well known instances of vapor-ware?
The Hurd, Debian Linux, and WINE!


:) :) :)


------------------------------

From: adap@andrews.edu (Edsel Adap)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Linux and Bernoulli?
Date: 22 May 1994 22:44:44 GMT


Hi!
Is there any way I can get linux to recognize my bernoulli 90?  Is
anyone working on a device driver for it?

thanks.
-- 
 Edsel Adap                         Computer Science / Mathematics Major
 adap@andrews.edu                   Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI

The Briggs/Chase Law of Program Development:

------------------------------

From: lilo@slip-13-3 (lilo (SpRiNg 94 GpA 3.64))
Subject: Re: BRIEF/vi Compatible GUI Text Editor
Date: 21 May 1994 05:44:01 GMT

On Thu, 19 May 1994 17:29:40 GMT, Rob Savoye (rob@Cygnus.COM) wrote:

> msuzio@tiamat.umd.umich.edu (Mike Suzio) writes:

> >shyamal@seas.smu.edu (Shyamal Prasad) writes:

> >In short, let's not condemn anyone for trying to make money.  If you want
> >to consider them evil scum, fine.  But they have a place in the Linux

>   Source should be free, sell support! 

Let the users decide what they want.  As they have.  Some of them are
willing to buy source, some of them prefer to get their source free and pay
for support.  Personally, I hate to pay for software (I generally prefer
GNU-licensed stuff), but I'm unwilling to state it's a natural law!  There's
room for everyone.  ;)


lilo

------------------------------

From: lilo@slip-13-3 (lilo (SpRiNg 94 GpA 3.64))
Subject: Re: BRIEF/vi Compatible GUI Text Editor
Date: 21 May 1994 05:50:48 GMT

On 20 May 94 03:34:25, David Holland (dholland@husc9.harvard.edu) wrote:

> shyamal@seas.smu.edu's message of Wed, 18 May 1994 16:42:51 GMT said:

>  > To be honest I don't see what a non-free editor is doing in a linux
>  > newsgroup ;-)

> ;-) or not, this is exactly the sort of comment, and attitude, that is
> keeping the major software companies from supporting Linux.

I think that's an exaggeration.  It's silly to think that "non-free" editors
have no place in Linux.  But it's equally silly to think that the "major
software companies" are being "kept from supporting Linux."  Novell, for
example, seems very interested in Linux.  And they're free to use it.

>                                                              Right now
> I can afford to use Linux, because I don't need my computer for much
> besides telnet. If I needed to publish a book, or keep complicated
> accounts, or do graphics processing, I'd probably have to break out
> fdisk and go back to DOS and maybe Windows. Why? Because the necessary
> applications simply do not exist for Linux. Period.

Okay, you're annoyed that Linux users seem to have a somewhat veering
attitude regarding user-friendliness.  ("Me heap macho stud hacker.  Me not
need function keys.  Me not need simplicity when me have EMACS!" :)  But
that's no reason to disregard things like the latest ALPHA dos emulator,
which is getting progressively more stable and considerably faster.  And,
yes, the WINE project is likely to take a long time, but it also has made
truly respectable progress.

> Until such time as they do, Linux will remain a marginal hacker's OS
> the rest of the world views with a mixture of suspicion and fear.

Suspicion?  Possibly.  Fear?  Can you say "exaggeration?"  :)  Marginal
hacker's OS?  Can you say "argumentative phrasing?"  I knew you could.... ;)


lilo

------------------------------

From: lpkruger@tucson.Princeton.EDU (Louis P. Kruger)
Subject: Re: software communists was Re: BRIEF/vi C
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 00:13:20 GMT

In article <1994May20.172000.25906@eurom.rhein-main.de>,
Michaela Merz <misch@misch@elara.fsag.de> wrote:
>In article 9598@emc.rvt.com, remco@emc.rvt.com (Remco Treffkorn) writes:
>
>Well - there are a lot of differences between music and software. Did you
>ever tape some records? Or videos? Doing the same with software would be
>illegal. Software is protected by copyrights _and_ only available in 
>machine readable code. That has never been in the mind of the copyright
>law founders.
> 

Actually, I thought it was illegal to copy music for another person, as well.

>>With all due respect, I think you live in a bit of a dream world. The next
>>guy who says "software should be free" will be knee-capped :-)
>>Who says it should be free? The same people who say booze should be free?
>>Or healthcare should be free? Or housing?
>
>Software should be free! Because there's a _big_ difference between housing,
>healthcare and software. Softwareproducers don't have to invest once the
>product is in the market. They are able to sell exactly the same product
>again and again. No other industry is able to do this with all those
>copy restrictions. Nobody prevents you to break your car into parts just
>to learn how the engine is working. It is not prohibited to take a look 
>into your tv set or to measure the different parts to see what and how 
>things are going.
>

Sure, and it's not prohibited to disassemble your favorite program either.  But
try asking your car manufacturer to give you blueprints sometime, and they'll
laugh in your face.  Why is source code any different?

>>I think everybody should be rich, didn't help me much! I still have to
>>work, and sell the holy cow: SOFTWARE.
>
>Well - go ahead and become rich. 
>

Is that a crime now?

>>Having diried myself with sin by having taken money for software, I have
>>to take a more moderate stance towards free software: I *like* software to
>>be free (in both senses of the word). Whenever there is a free product
>>available, I will take it over the not free one. Even if it it slightly
>>less capable/nice/refined/.... . This gives free software a big competetive
>>edge over the commercial stuff. I guess this is the way many/most people
>>look at the issue and it is what keeps free s/w alive.
>>
>>Your unfair remark about there not beeing any linux if Linus would not
>>think the same you do (yes, that is how it come across): save it, does
>>not work! Linus was more interested in doing his own little thing by then,
>>so that you could have given him SCO for free, and we would probably still
>>have linux. He enjoyed doing it.
>>
>>In my opinion the reasons why people are writing free s/w are:
>>
>>1: They like doing it! It's fun!
>>
>>2: When they start, they only have something that nobody would pay
>>   for anyway! Too buggy, too incomplete!
>>
>>3: Isn't it nice when somebody tells you that your s/w is great?
>>   Is that not a nice reward?
>
>Well - there are a lot more possibilities. We're developing and using free 
>software because we don't want to be cheated by all those "well known"
>companies anymore. And - we make our living by developing, porting and
>supporting free software. You should not try to declare free software
>devlopers as a kind of unprofessional dreamers.
>

Good for you.  I don't claim that free software authors have a problem,
unless they start preaching that *all* software should be free.

>>If their stuff has some potential, then other people on the net will
>>get involved. They debug, they enhance, they add to the product in a
>>way that it is then not the sole property of the creator any more. By
>>then it might have progressed to a point, where the s/w could compete
>>with commercial offerings. But now it is very hard to put the spirit
>>back in the bottle. ("booze should be free :-)
>>
>>Much of the free s/w on the net, that is now in a state that would 
>>be commecially marketable went through this metamorphosis, linux
>>included. I am happy that this is so, I am happy that there is commercial
>>s/w also. If that sounds ambiguous, remember, I do not have your ethics
>>to get in the way.
>
>Commercially marketable is a nice phrase for making money out of other
>peoples work. We don't have anything against commercial software. If it
>is available under fair conditions. If I am able to copy it for private
>purposes. If I am able to return it if it doesn't fit my needs. If the 
>developers don't abuse the copyright to protect ie. the waste basket 
>look&feel.
>

You are already permitted to copy software for private purposes, at least in
ths US, as a judge ruled in Central Point Software vs. ???  
What's illegal is distributing it to others.  Furthermore, you should 
check out the return policy and licence agreement before you buy software.  
I have a simple solution:  I don't buy software I can't return.

>>The next guy suggesting that "software should be free" better be prepared
>>to offer me a job. 
>
>Sorry. You want to become rich. What about a travel to Las Vegas ;-)
>

If becoming rich does not fit into your life's goals, that's fine.  Just don't
expect everyone to agree with you.

> 
>Michaela
>
>
>---
>The                                           
>Free Software                                      (Phone) ++49-69-6312083
>Association of Germany, FSAG                             We have a target!
>
>


        - Louis

------------------------------

From: jmorris@darkstar.rastek.com (Jim Morris)
Subject: Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 05:22:06 GMT

In article <Cq4ByL.1uD@pell.com>, Orc <orc@pell.com> wrote:
>
>  Well, this will no doubt come as a great surprise to the people
>who've ported Linux to the (RIP) Commodore Amiga.

Okay!  Okay!  Stop flooding my E-mail box with messages pointing out the
obvious:  I forgot about the 68K port of Linux!  :-)   Oops!

Anyway - the Linux 68K port has been going on for quite a while.  DO you
think Novell is going to port Linux to the PowerPC "and other RISC
microprocessors" by late Summer?  And even if they do, I cannot see them
giving aways work of that magnitude for the trivial price of $99...

/---------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Jim Morris                      | E-mail:  jmorris@rastek.com       |
|                                 |          73670.762@compuserve.com |
| Rastek Corporation              |                                   |
| 7618 Memorial Parkway, SW       | Voice:   (205) 882-0882           |
| Huntsville, Alabama 35802-2200  | FAX:     (205) 882-0238           |
\---------------------------------------------------------------------/


------------------------------

From: peterd@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: Wait'll you see the May 16th PCWEEK...
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 19:54:55 GMT

burley@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Craig Burley) writes:

>Point being that if y'all are talking about someone violating the GPL,
>you'd better contact the owner of the copyright of the code being
>violated.  Only that person or organization decides whether to
>prosecute the violation -- perhaps a license agreement other than the
>GPL has already been reached between the parties, for instance.

[...]

>In the Linux case, assuming Linus is indeed the copyright holder,
>he can decide whether to investigate the alleged violation, how to
>handle it, whether to sue, whether to separately license Linux (say,
>to Novell) for profit (or beer), whatever. 

I wonder... Linux includes modifications by other people which are
distributed under the GPL (due to its conditions) - by my
understanding, these modifications are not assigned back to Linus to
license as he wishes. Some of them might have standing to sue, as
well. 

                                Peter Desnoyers
-- 

------------------------------

From: dbl@levad.oau.org (/bin/bash)
Subject: Xwindow screen saver/lock program
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 01:30:55 GMT

Does anywone know of a screen saver other than xlock for Xwindows? I hate to
admit it, I have a Messy Dos Windoze screen saver that kicks butt. I have xlock
but it seems lame compared to the one I have for Windoze. I hate to see 
Windoze have something better than Linux!!!!!


-- 
/=============================================================================\
| Dave Lounsberry            | "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- |
| dbl@levad.oau.org          |  it took over ten years of carful development."|
| uunet!gator!edus!levad!dbl |   ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca                  |
\=============================================================================/


------------------------------

From: bhogan@crl.com (Bill Hogan)
Subject: Re: BRIEF/vi Compatible GUI Text Editor
Date: 20 May 1994 23:53:25 -0700

Win Bent (whb@rastaban.usc.edu) wrote:

: I DO NOT OBJECT to selling software on The Net.  I DO OBJECT to
: announcements which bury the word "pricing" so that one might not
: realise that it's a commercial offering.

  I very much object to seeing "commercials" on the net!

  If anyone is free to post commercial advertisements on the net then
everyone is free to post commercial advertisements on the net! 

  "The Net" is like a school: people come here to communicate with other 
people interested in learning about related things.

  We do not give salespeople free access to our classrooms.

  Why do we not give salespeople free access to our classrooms?

  Should we give salespeople free access our classrooms?

  Should we give salespeople free access to our newsgroups?

  Think about it.

BH    
  
-- 
  Bill Hogan
{bhogan@crl.com}

------------------------------

From: tvo@zaphod.swb.de (Thomas Vogler)
Subject: Re: vi dd command dosn't work properly sometimes
Date: 16 May 1994 22:04:21 GMT

i have seen this when the modeline causes the screen to scroll up. can be 
reproduced in a vary narrow xterm editing a file with a long name. in vi
enter 3 lines:

-top-
111
222
333
~
~ (several...)
-bottom-

put the cursor on the 222 line. type Control-G (one character, not 9).
in the bottom you see a inverted line which (hopefully) causes
the screen to scroll. the currsor appears top be on the line with the 333.
hit 'dd'. the lines with the 222 will vanish, thats where vi believes the
cursor is at.

to avoid: type Control-L to redraw the screen.

thomas
-- 
thomas vogler, sch"aferweg 25, 64354 reinheim, germany, tvo@zaphod.swb.de, 
phone: +-[49]-(6162)-83754. das telefon schellt und ich bin im keller,
vielleicht nur verw"ahlt, doch ich bin schneller. ich bin der telefonmann,
ich geh immer ran. schubidu... (frei nach helge schneider)
--

-- 
thomas vogler, sch"aferweg 25, 64354 reinheim, germany, tvo@zaphod.swb.de, 
phone: +-[49]-(6162)-83754. das telefon schellt und ich bin im keller,
vielleicht nur verw"ahlt, doch ich bin schneller. ich bin der telefonmann,
ich geh immer ran. schubidu... (frei nach helge schneider)

------------------------------

From: adap@andrews.edu (Edsel Adap)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.development
Subject: Fax Software for Linux
Date: 22 May 1994 23:25:26 GMT

Hi!

Is there a public domain fax software for linux?  Preferrably one that
can send .dvi, .ps or xwd files.

If anyone knows of one, please let me know.

Thanks!
-- 
 Edsel Adap                         Computer Science / Mathematics Major
 adap@andrews.edu                   Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI

The Briggs/Chase Law of Program Development:

------------------------------

From: rjust@crl.com (Randy Just)
Subject: Re: Beware: Just Computers
Date: 22 May 1994 16:32:18 -0700

DAVID L. JOHNSON (dlj0@ns2.CC.Lehigh.EDU) wrote:
: In article <2rmopr$jid@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, ch5372@eehpx3 (Chang-Hsun Jon Huang) writes:
: >Please don't buy any linux products from Just Computers.
: >Mark Brownsen is a nasty person. Decide for yourself.
: >Here is what he wrote:

: I hope, and suspect, that either this post or the mailing that prompted it
: was a fake.  Perhaps someone managed to get their e-mail to appear to be
: from them.  Could we have some coomment from that company before we decide
: to boycott them?  

: Certainly, if such a hateful message is real, I would not deal with them.


: David L. Johnson                             ID:  dlj0@lehigh.edu
: Department of Mathematics
: Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015       Telephone: 610-758-3759 (office)
:                                                         610-828-3708 (home)
: MS-DOS: Just say No!

And that e-mail wasn't from our company directly as you suspected.  The
individual that posted the message in this group did so without checking
the facts.  It has hurt us from a business point I am sure.  And in the
end it is hurting more than just us.

When I first saw the message in this group. I thought I was going to see
something about someone possibly not receiving a shipment or something
like that.  Needless to say, I am a bit flabbergasted over this.

As our customers will attest, we run a first rate business offering good
products at reasonable prices.  We are very legitimate and contribute to
our local community.  

Randy Just
Just Computers!
P.O. Box 751414
Petaluma, CA 94975-1414
rjust@justcomp.com OR rjust@crl.com


------------------------------

From: hdesiato@cs.umd.edu (Hui-Hui Hu)
Subject: Re: Linux for the masses? (WordProcessing again)
Date: 22 May 1994 19:40:23 -0400

In article <2rmhsp$hmq@virgo.cc.gatech.edu>,
Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:
[..]

>In article <2rlpbb$ifp@e4310h01.lerc.nasa.gov>,
>Lisa Henn <schenn@lerc.nasa.gov> wrote:
[..]
>>>1) The lemming syndrome: novices need to be able to be part of a group
>>>   that share similar software. 

>>I agree.  I think it's because they like to feel like there is plenty of 
>>support for them if they get stuck.

Linux's lifeblood is basically the net, so.. having a detailed manual
page that is suitable for printout as well as on-line help should have
to do it. What kind of support does WP have? I always dove into
the stupid boxes of manuals to.. but online help was sufficient for me..

>>>3) Word Processing: I've finally figured out that outside of the expert class
>>>   that folks really only use computers to write documents. 

>>Absolutely!  And, as you allude to later on, most users write documents with
>>simple layouts:  tabs to format it left-to-right, carriage returns to format
>>it top-to-bottom, lines drawn with the _ key or using an underline font,
>>WYSIWYG.  If they get fancy, a table.  Do you include tables in your essential
>>task #4, "The ability to include graphics"?

If we're going to use WP as an example, I'd make a category, "graphics box".
Sort of like the stuff in *roff. Include an encapsulated postscript file,
or an image - all this would be written out in some sort of format, I guess,
like TeX (here I'm shooting out of the hip, I don't use TeX much).

>>There's one more thing I would add based on my observations of WordPerfect
>>users:  a spell checker.  I suppose an interface to ispell would work dandily.

What might be cool is linking the word processor into 'net resources,
if available: sort of how lynx's online help is a hypertext link to
the author's site. That would save on local space, and be pretty flexible
on updates and so on. How about a dictionary "webster" function that fires
a link to the webster server at MIT or something?

>>I would say that a key to a _popular_ WP is that it performs average WP
>>tasks and not much else.  That way, it focuses on those average tasks and
>>makes them VERY straightforward for your average user.  This is (part of)
>>why (imo, of course!), WordPerfect is such a popular package.

Ahh, this IMHO should be changed to "Does average tasks, easily" but
is also robust enough to include a lot of other features. The features
should be available, but shouldn't bother users.

I agree with this. |
                   v
>>We could do one better by making the average tasks straightfoward but 
>>(somehow) make more complicated tasks readily accessible for those who want
>>to venture that way.  (That's my big complaint about WordP--it doesn't do
>>anything more complicated than a memo easily).

>Well that an arguable point since we have ultra sophisticated tools already
>for doing complicated tasks. Balancing power/complexity with simplicity/
>ease of use is a tough task. I'm thinking for this we err to the latter and
>just KISS (Keep It Simple Silly!).

Seems like your editor is already complicated enough to give up on that point :)

>>>   Most importantly JOE doesn't intimidate folks with hard to use
>>>   interfaces or massive complexity. Type joe and start typing. Doesn't
>>>   get much simpler than that. 

Yea. No commands like in VI or WordStar just to start typing: just a blank
screen like WP.

>There are a lot of crazies that use vi. I'm one of them! 
>However it's suicide to show it to a novice user.

I use VI way too much, but I use maybe 4 "features": insert, delete, search,
and save :)

>I haven't read your whole post so you may have seen what I was talking about
>in the WYSIWYG section. This is an implmentation detail. Files should be
>saved in such a format. The user would never see it unless they edited with
>a tool that didn't understand the tags (like vi).

Erm. I prefer again WP: special colours to mark italicized text and so on.
Much faster, easier to implement than WYSIWYG, and maybe when you have
something like "print preview", just link a PostScript viewer to the result,
like ghostscript with svgalib. I'm concentrating on simplicity and
ease of implementation, I guess, but I also usually prefer that to
a slow WYSIWYG interface where it takes a while to redraw the line..

>Exactly. The WYSIWYG interface will show some pretty representation of
>attributed text and not the tags. All I was saying is that when files are
>saved it's completely in text. So that you could mail it without encapsulation
>etc. Just like PostScript and TeX/LaTeX it would a be completely printable
>ASCII representation.

>Yesterday I had to destroy a Linux installation (like committing suicide!)
>because I couldn't answer the simple question "Show me the Word Processor."
>from a novice (who happened to own the machine).

Ow. :)

I was thinking, maybe Rich text format might be suitable, to save the
representation as. Not sure.

>Well I'm thinking along the lines that PostScript (with GhostScript) is
>one of the few truely portable and convertible printing formats. Since it's
>so universal we should start with it as the standard. Besides with the
>pbm set of tools we can convert almost any graphics format that exist into
>any other.

>Not exactly a clipboard I don't think. Just some kind of tool where a user
>can create graphics without having to run X (where Xpaint can easily do 
>the job). Also we need a way to get all those DOS/Mac clipart kinds of
>graphics into our system.

Right, but I think this should be a seperate program. (I dunno of
any paint program for SVGALIB.. :(.. but it should be able to
read in .gif,.jpg, etc as a graphics file and convert?)

>BTW I just thought of another display mode: VGA graphics in a VC. It'll
>fill the niche of having true WYSIWYG without having to run X. Just build
>an interface right on time of the SVGA libarary.

Yea. You need to differentiate between this and true WYSIWYG! v
>True. That's why I said above that atrributes should be stored as text
>only. So if you wanted to go info vi and edit you can. Our WP would
>show the text in some kind of highlighted format so you can pick out
>attibutes graphically (much like WordP changes the color of attributed
>text in early versions).

>For the next sentence I need a name for "our system".
>I Christen this project the Linux Word Processing System!
>(LWPS for short. Pronounced: lips!)

Nah, that'd imply that there are no other word processors. :)

>Also unlike WordP where when the last attributed character is deleted the
>attribute sticks around, in LWPS when the last attributed character goes
>away, the attribute is removed also.

>>>      text: The most important thing is that the app computes the amount of
>>>            space each character takes and only show an appropriate number
>>>            of character for each line. 

>>>   6) Simple Interface for commands: solution is to use the mouse when at
>>>      all possible. 

>Exactly. And I'm talking about having that type of interface for anything
>that has a mouse. So our console version will take mouse events and allow
>for selection, cut, paste, and menus. The X version will do the same. For
>terminals we'll have to find a way to emulate the effect (by some combo
>of control keys, arrows, and the like). I use all three (console,X,terminal)
>all the time so being able to edit a document with all three with a rather
>simple interface is important.

Question for Linux programmers: how do you tell where the mouse is?
Curious, I've never done any mouse programming.

>You brought up another cogent point: documentation. For LWPS to work it'll
>need not only on-line docs and man pages, but a full documentation set
>like the LDP has been producing and both a paper and on-line tutorial.

See my point about hypertext links?

>Popups are a more likely senario for command and attribute selection. The
>pull-ups on the help should probably stay. I like the fact that you can
>have help up and continue to work. Yes it would have to be expanded and
>the mouse should be able to select help topics. But I don't think that
>help should be a popup because usually a user would like to perform some
>action while help is still up.

Maybe popup windows in an X version.

>>>      Also arrow and control key commands should be available so that
>>>      terminal users can still work.

>ALT is nice but it's not everywhere. Something like CTRL-A would be more
>appropriate because it works on each of the 4 display interfaces we've
>talked about so far (console text,console SVGA,X, and terminal). Since
>ALT is not accessible on all it'll be hard to be consistent.

Yea. Your choices are basically a control-something and a meta (escape)
something.. Or you could be really obnoxious in VI and beep and
have a wannabe-menu with just an escape key.

Oh well. I like the ideas. I'm hungry to get coding! (coincidentally
I was just about to start hacking on joe a few minutes ago..)

-Hui-Hui Hu
hdesiato@cs.umd.edu


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