Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #148
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sat, 21 May 94 23:13:10 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #148, Volume #2                Sat, 21 May 94 23:13:10 EDT

Contents:
  DeCo and Color (Termcap) (Michael Knigge)
  Re: Help selecting good SCSI disk (Kazuto Okayasu)
  Any comments on machine (Alan Krantz)
  Re: Standard Linux GUI (Steve Harrington)
  Accelerated support for W32 in Xwin (Patrick Findlay)
  Re: URGENT: Linux Security Fixes (Jeroen van Gennip)
  Re: Improving Linux performance: What works best? (David H Dennis)
  RAID: Would any work with Linux? (David H Dennis)
  Re: PCI or VL bus SCSI Host Adapters (Scott Ferris)
  Re: Linux for the masses? (WordProcessing again) (Byron A Jeff)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: knick@harlie.han.de (Michael Knigge)
Subject: DeCo and Color (Termcap)
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 13:00:40 GMT

Hello!

I'm using DECO 3.5.2 and I want to get it a little bit "nicer". I know that
DECO supports Color, but I've not a correct /etc/termcap. 

Can anybody give me the correct /etc/termcap entry..... And: has anybody a
newer Version? (if yes, where can i get it?)....

Thanx a lot
  Michael
-- 
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   ---  Michael Knigge                         eMail: knick@cove.han.de  ---
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: kokayasu@apollo.adcom.uci.edu (Kazuto Okayasu)
Crossposted-To: comp.arch.storage,comp.periphs.scsi,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
Subject: Re: Help selecting good SCSI disk
Date: 22 May 1994 01:39:03 GMT

Yet another drive to consider is the Quantum Empire 1080S.
1030 real Mb, 512K cache, 9.5ms avg read 11ms avg write, 1.8ms trk/trk
5.6ms rotational latency @ 5400RPM, 1" low=profile.  Claimed "SCSI-3" and
500,000hr MTBF.

I bought one of these last week, and it is very quick.  Got a great deal, too.

Just my $0.02

--
  Kazuto Okayasu     (kokayasu@uci.edu)     University of California, Irvine
==============================================================================
  "I tot I taw a puddy tat...  I did, I did taw a puddy tat!    -Tweety
==============================================================================

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.386bsd.questions,info.bsdi.users
From: atk@agua (Alan Krantz)
Subject: Any comments on machine
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:31:15 GMT

I've been looking for a machine to run Linux or FreeBSD and have seen
several systems advertised. The ones that look most favorable are the
gateway 2000, comtrade (pci dream or tornado) and midwest elite. The
comtrade seems to be a very nice deal and about 400 dollars cheaper than
the elite and gateway  (almost too cheap - i'm aware the dimaond pro
display adapter will need to be subsituted).

Does anyone have some very specific comments (for or against) these machines
and whether to go with the 486dx4 or pentium 60 (prefer 486 but they are
the same price). 

I'm not very concern about tech support. What I want is a machine that
will be reliable, be fast and 'cheap2keep'.

My news reader is warped and my email is atk@agua.colorado.edu

Thanks!
Alan

------------------------------

From: harringt@eskimo.com (Steve Harrington)
Subject: Re: Standard Linux GUI
Date: 21 May 94 00:14:53 GMT

jwshin@actuator.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (Jinwoo Shin) writes:

>chrisb@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au (Chris Bitmead) writes:

>>>The problem here is, there is really only one choice any more:  Motif.  :-(
>>>We have to get some freely available Motif-clone widget set available for
>>>Linux, because that's what everyone else has standardized/is standardizing

 disagree.  The FWF widget set is already a viable replacement for Motif 
and growing.  I decided to use it instead of Motif for a project I'm 
writing on an SGI.  Why? - portability.  I have to run code on Suns, Evans
and Sutherlands, SGIs, and, of course, linux boxes.  Not all of these have
Motif.

(BTW: with a little work and about 40 MB of disk space, I was able to 
upgrade the SGI Indigo at work to have the exact look/feel of my linux
box.  All I had to do was replace all the the utilities with their GNU
counterparts and change the window manager and - success!  For just under
$40k I have a computer that is about 2x a fast as my $2k 486)



-- 
Steve
harringt@eskimo.com

------------------------------

From: Pat.Findlay@launchpad.unc.edu (Patrick Findlay)
Subject: Accelerated support for W32 in Xwin
Date: 22 May 1994 02:07:11 GMT

I have not found this in any of the FAQ's. Is an accelerated driver for
the W32i being worked on for Xwindows? I'm using the regular ET4000
chipset driver now, and would love to get some more speed! Thanks.

---Patrick Findlay
--
==============================================================================
 \ The above does not represent OIT, UNC-CH, laUNChpad, or its other users. /
   ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: jeroen@gdsnl.gds.nl (Jeroen van Gennip)
Subject: Re: URGENT: Linux Security Fixes
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 23:10:21 GMT

Rene COUGNENC (rene@renux.frmug.fr.net) wrote:
: You might consider upgrading to the up to date libraries and development
: tools, I think...

Or you could do the following:

cd /bin
chmod 755 login
mv login login.xxx
gcc -o login login.c
chmod 755 login
chmod u+s login
chown root login login.xxx
chgrp root login login.xxx

This is an alternative login thingy, call it login.c :
Comments welcome. Works for me tho.


#include <stdio.h>

main (int cnt, char **vec) {
        short   i,j;
        char    c,d;
        for (i=0;i<cnt;i++) {
                if ((c=vec[i][0])!=' ') {
                        d=vec[i][1];
                        if (c=='-') {
                                if ((d=='l')||(d=='f')) {
                                        exit (1);
                                }
                        }
                }
        }
        execve ("/bin/login.xxx",vec,0l);
}



Met vriendelijke Groet/Kind Regards
......................................................................
|     Jeroen L.H. van Gennip           <jeroen@gds.nl>
|     GDS Automatisering BV            IBMMAIL (I1047665)
|     P.O.box 473                      NL Semadigit 06-59414905
|     2600 AL Delft
|     The Netherlands                  #include <std_disclaimer.h>
......................................................................

------------------------------

From: dhd@netcom.com (David H Dennis)
Subject: Re: Improving Linux performance: What works best?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 02:17:22 GMT

Here's the original poster revisiting his thread.

First, many thanks to all of you who responded, both via mail and here.  
Virtually everyone told me that I should get more memory; on Monday, I 
will be upgrading my system to 16mb.  I am also getting a second 1.7GB
Quantum hard disk at the same time, so I can store an ever-larger volume
of news.

Many people suggested that I get and use INN.  The information available on
INN seems to indicate that it's hopelessly complex, but since I do want to 
directly connect my system to the net, I'm going to be trying it in the
upcoming weeks.

Nobody told me a Pentium processor would do any good.  Disk and memory
seem to be keys here.

Does anyone know how my UltraStor 34F local bus SCSI card compares to an
EISA card?  If it's significantly worse, which EISA card should I get?

A number of people have suggested that, since my system is emphasizing news
as an important thing, I should obtain a separate news server machine.  I'm
inclined to do this, largely because I want to get some experience with
networking before attaching my system to the Internet.  I figure that I'd
rather learn Linux networking by connecting a $ 1,500 machine to my system
then wait until I had a $ 3,000 router and a $ 11,500 provider subscription
and a $ 700 / month T1 line staring me in the face.  :-)

Thanks again for all your helpful responses!

David Dennis

---
For a look at my handiwork, dial David's Amazing Internet Services at
(818) 997-7500.  Free until I get it working.  :-)  If it doesn't answer
the phone, it's because I haven't gotten my replacement BocaBoard yet and
someone else is using the one working line - try later.

------------------------------

From: dhd@netcom.com (David H Dennis)
Subject: RAID: Would any work with Linux?
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 02:22:19 GMT

I am putting together what I hope to be a small but high-quality Internet 
service provider running on Linux boxes.

RAID (Rapid Array of Independent Drives, or was that Redundant?) is a neat
technology that lets you use a large number of small drives as though they
are a single drive.  It also puts redundant information on each unit so 
that the failure of one does not mean the failure of the whole.

Apparently this is accomplished through special disk controllers.  At least
one is said to emulate an Adaptec 1540 series controller, which I believe is
supported by Linux.

Has anyone tried or considered trying such a thing under Linux?

D


------------------------------

From: sferris@math.macalstr.edu (Scott Ferris)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development
Subject: Re: PCI or VL bus SCSI Host Adapters
Date: 22 May 1994 01:42:56 GMT

Bill Heiser (heiser@world.std.com) wrote:
> Neither the hardware FAQ nor the kernel config stuff mentions
> anything about support in LINUX for VL or PCI bus disk controllers.
> I'm particularly concerned about ADAPTEC support.

> Are there any plans to support these so we can use the
> faster busses for SCSI support?

  The Adaptec 6360 chip is used by some VL boards, which is supported
(somewhat anyway) by the Adaptec 1520 driver.  Last I heard there
were some timing problems, but they may have been resolved, I haven't
been following that too closely.

  I'm working on a driver for the aic-7770 chip, which is used in
the EISA 274x, VL-BUS 284x, and (when released, if they aren't yet) 
PCI 294x boards.  I'm hoping to have an alpha ready by the end of the 
summer.

  At the moment I only have an old 2742T myself.  I can't directly
test the 284x models, because I don't have one (anyone want to donate
a new 2840AT? ), and I can't test the PCI one since I don't have access
to any PCI machines.  Still, if the driver works for one bus, it should
work for all of them, and I have people with 274x and 284x volunteering
to test the driver.  


--
Scott M. Ferris,             sferris@math.macalstr.edu
LaserMaster Inc,
Macalester College,
and points in between.


------------------------------

From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: Linux for the masses? (WordProcessing again)
Date: 21 May 1994 23:00:41 -0400

This is what I love about the net. Instant response. dialog below. Please
feel free to add.

In article <2rlpbb$ifp@e4310h01.lerc.nasa.gov>,
Lisa Henn <schenn@lerc.nasa.gov> wrote:
>Well, I'm not a programmer, so I guess I'm one of those novice new Linux
>administrators everyone's been talking about.  I am fairly savvy to unix
>in general, though (just not administrative issues), so I'm not quite in the
>general users category that Byron is talking about.  Nevertheless, here are
>my responses:
>
>In article <2rljpv$egt@virgo.cc.gatech.edu>,
>Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>>Where we're having problems breaking through is with the simple core software
>>base that many unix OS's don't have because they've never been in the
>>personal computer market with all the feature and the right price before.
>
>>some perceptions:
>
>>1) The lemming syndrome: novices need to be able to be part of a group
>>   that share similar software. 
>
>I agree.  I think it's because they like to feel like there is plenty of 
>support for them if they get stuck.

Yes indeed! So we have to find ways to offer them support especially if
they don't have net access. The ultimate in cool ideas is to build some
kind of Expert System that you can drop on a CDROM. Eliza for Linux ;-)!

>
>
>>3) Word Processing: I've finally figured out that outside of the expert class
>>   that folks really only use computers to write documents. 
>
>Absolutely!  And, as you allude to later on, most users write documents with
>simple layouts:  tabs to format it left-to-right, carriage returns to format
>it top-to-bottom, lines drawn with the _ key or using an underline font,
>WYSIWYG.  If they get fancy, a table.  Do you include tables in your essential
>task #4, "The ability to include graphics"?

Nope. That's another one. 

>
>There's one more thing I would add based on my observations of WordPerfect
>users:  a spell checker.  I suppose an interface to ispell would work dandily.

Exactly. I was thinking about it but I forgot to put it in my initial list.

>   
>>   The key to a good
>>   WP is that it performs that average WP tasks and not much else.
>
>I would say that a key to a _popular_ WP is that it performs average WP
>tasks and not much else.  That way, it focuses on those average tasks and
>makes them VERY straightforward for your average user.  This is (part of)
>why (imo, of course!), WordPerfect is such a popular package.
>
>We could do one better by making the average tasks straightfoward but 
>(somehow) make more complicated tasks readily accessible for those who want
>to venture that way.  (That's my big complaint about WordP--it doesn't do
>anything more complicated than a memo easily).

Well that an arguable point since we have ultra sophisticated tools already
for doing complicated tasks. Balancing power/complexity with simplicity/
ease of use is a tough task. I'm thinking for this we err to the latter and
just KISS (Keep It Simple Silly!).

>>   Most importantly JOE doesn't intimidate folks with hard to use
>>   interfaces or massive complexity. Type joe and start typing. Doesn't
>>   get much simpler than that. 
>
>Well, that's what most folks like.  I'm not familiar with JOE (I'm one of
>the few crazies who uses vi!), but I played iwth it a little in the other
>window so that I could respond to the comments you make:

There are a lot of crazies that use vi. I'm one of them! 
However it's suicide to show it to a novice user.

I teach an Undergraduate class where most of the students are being 
introduced to Unix for the 1st time. Long ago I used to take a couple of
lectures just to explain enough vi so that they could get started. With
joe I tell them how to get in and how to get online help. Every students
picks it up almost instantly! No time taken in class. No hassle to the
students. One reason why I like it.

>
>>   2) Attributes: Seems to me that SGML has the right procedural model
>>      for attributes: just tag them with text. So it you want something
>>      in bold Century 15 pt just tag it:
>
>>      [Cent-b-15]This is Century bold 15 text.[def] and some more text
>>      in regular format.
>
>Well, this is rather like what LaTeX does in the extreme, something like:
>\begin{rightflush}
>{\em blah blah blah}
>\end{rightflush}
>
>I tend to think that would detract from the WYSIWIG feature you are trying
>to build in.

I haven't read your whole post so you may have seen what I was talking about
in the WYSIWYG section. This is an implmentation detail. Files should be
saved in such a format. The user would never see it unless they edited with
a tool that didn't understand the tags (like vi).

>
>From my observation of WordP users, the "F11--Reveal Codes" feature is much
>like this (even looks like this), but no one uses it because they find it
>visually distracting from their document.

Exactly. The WYSIWYG interface will show some pretty representation of
attributed text and not the tags. All I was saying is that when files are
saved it's completely in text. So that you could mail it without encapsulation
etc. Just like PostScript and TeX/LaTeX it would a be completely printable
ASCII representation.

And BTW where do you think I got the idea from (combo of WP and SGML) ;-)?

>
>It's not my intent to shoot you down; I think this is a hot idea that Linux
>and Unix in general sorely need.  I'm just trying to add my observations in
>the hope that that would help guide the creation of a more appealing package.

Don't worry folks (especially you Lisa because you answered first!)
I'm as thick skinned as they come. Bring the comments along.

Yesterday I had to destroy a Linux installation (like committing suicide!)
because I couldn't answer the simple question "Show me the Word Processor."
from a novice (who happened to own the machine).

If I can take that, I can take most anything.

>
>
>>   4) Included graphics: Encapulated postscript is an obvious choice. 
>
>Some people like other formats, like HPGL.  That may be something for release
>2, though.

Well I'm thinking along the lines that PostScript (with GhostScript) is
one of the few truely portable and convertible printing formats. Since it's
so universal we should start with it as the standard. Besides with the
pbm set of tools we can convert almost any graphics format that exist into
any other.

>
>>      Question: is there a linux tool that is Like Xpaint
>>      for VC's. 
>
>You mean with a clipboard and such?  I think that would be a good idea.

Not exactly a clipboard I don't think. Just some kind of tool where a user
can create graphics without having to run X (where Xpaint can easily do 
the job). Also we need a way to get all those DOS/Mac clipart kinds of
graphics into our system.

>
>>   5) WYSIWIG: I'm a believer in text based applications because I've seen
>>      many situations where one works from terminal, over modems, telnet
>>      links and the like. 
>
>Well, from what little I saw of Joe, it looks like a lot of the commands
>are based on ^T's.  Is that right?  Does that count as text?  

Actually the ^T type stuff is used to set attributes such as margins,
wordwrap and the like. By text based I mean something that can run on
a terminal or a Virtual Console with no graphics. It has the side effect
that many terminals don't have a full accessible set of function keys
so the ^T type notation has its purpose.

BTW I just thought of another display mode: VGA graphics in a VC. It'll
fill the niche of having true WYSIWYG without having to run X. Just build
an interface right on time of the SVGA libarary.

Basically I ask myself "What input mechanism would we need to run on an
ADM3A terminal or a Z19 which has only the control key is accessible?"
We keep it in as a last resort not as a primary mode. See below.

So I'd keep the ^T interface but I wouldn't expect many folks to use it.

>I use LaTeX
>for my word processing/text formatting and one of the big appeals to me is
>that every formatting thing is handled with a display-able character.  If
>I go to delete, I know what I'm deleting.  (In WordP you can easily screw up
>your document format by careless deletion)

True. That's why I said above that atrributes should be stored as text
only. So if you wanted to go info vi and edit you can. Our WP would
show the text in some kind of highlighted format so you can pick out
attibutes graphically (much like WordP changes the color of attributed
text in early versions).

For the next sentence I need a name for "our system".
I Christen this project the Linux Word Processing System!
(LWPS for short. Pronounced: lips!)

Also unlike WordP where when the last attributed character is deleted the
attribute sticks around, in LWPS when the last attributed character goes
away, the attribute is removed also.

>
>
>>      text: The most important thing is that the app computes the amount of
>>            space each character takes and only show an appropriate number
>>            of character for each line. 
>
>I think that's a good idea.  The text-only (over the modem or whatever) 
>version isn't going to be _exactly_ WYSIWYG.  Trying to approximate it will
>help its appeal.  

That's the goal. There's no way to do WYSIWYG on an 80x25 CGA or mono
display. But a WYSIWYG SVGA interface is within sight.

>
>
>>   6) Simple Interface for commands: solution is to use the mouse when at
>>      all possible. 
>
>Well, that's what I was going to comment on when I looked at JOE in the 
>other screen.  When I have to use WordP, I use a copy that is on a vax that
>runs in an Xwindow (so I dont' have to close all my applications to do some
>editing).  The X mouse events are apparently very different from WordP mouse
>events, so they are simply not supported.  I do all the editing through the
>function keys, which i guess is how WordP got its start.  My coworkers use
>X also, but when I show them this copy of WordP, they are not interested,
>even though they all swear by WordP.  Why?  Because they want to use the
>mouse.  They like the pull-down menus.  I can't really blame them--it's a
>real hassle to remember shft-f2,2,4,something else, or to look over the
>card every time you want to do something.  It's easier to follow along on
>the menu.

Exactly. And I'm talking about having that type of interface for anything
that has a mouse. So our console version will take mouse events and allow
for selection, cut, paste, and menus. The X version will do the same. For
terminals we'll have to find a way to emulate the effect (by some combo
of control keys, arrows, and the like). I use all three (console,X,terminal)
all the time so being able to edit a document with all three with a rather
simple interface is important.

You brought up another cogent point: documentation. For LWPS to work it'll
need not only on-line docs and man pages, but a full documentation set
like the LDP has been producing and both a paper and on-line tutorial.

>
>I guess in the case of JOE it would be pull-up menus.  Currently it seems to
>only have the picks on the first level.  It opens a window and then tells 
>you what all the ^T commands are that are in that category.  I imagine that
>would need to be expanded.

Popups are a more likely senario for command and attribute selection. The
pull-ups on the help should probably stay. I like the fact that you can
have help up and continue to work. Yes it would have to be expanded and
the mouse should be able to select help topics. But I don't think that
help should be a popup because usually a user would like to perform some
action while help is still up.

>
>
>>      Also arrow and control key commands should be available so that
>>      terminal users can still work.
>
>I've noticed in DOS applications you can go through the pull-down menus
>by hitting the alt key and then moving around.  I would highly recommend
>this for the terminal users, to keep the application presentation as
>consistant across all situations as possible.

ALT is nice but it's not everywhere. Something like CTRL-A would be more
appropriate because it works on each of the 4 display interfaces we've
talked about so far (console text,console SVGA,X, and terminal). Since
ALT is not accessible on all it'll be hard to be consistent.

>
>>Anyway given these criteria (and I'll gladly accept any other suggestions)
>
>Well, here's an idea:  someone came by my office a few months ago with a flier.
>It was for a graphical WYSIWYG interface to LaTeX.  You typed stuff and 
>selected commands much in the way that you do for WordP, but it would write
>out LaTeX commands behind the scenes.  The problem with it was that they 
>wanted $600 for it.  Here they were trying to compete wtih WordP and they
>were charging twice as much.
>
>How about soemthing like that?  That way we can make use of all the 
>capabilities of LaTeX (as well as all the extended modules, such as ArabTeX,
>MusicTeX (or whatever it is called), etc) but present it in a way that 
>the general gropu of users would like.

Yup. My comment is that latex is not necessary as a back end because the
complexity level is much much lower. I'm talking about a PC-Write type
application where you can write notes to Mom and Dad, memos to the boss, 
with the ability to choose fonts and have some tables and pictures. LaTeX and 
TeX are big beautiful monsters that would scare the bejeezus out of novice
users even if they're caged behind a front end. Not necessary in my opinion.

Thanks for the comments Lisa, keep them coming!

BAJ
-- 
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel - And Using Linux!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------


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