Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #145
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sat, 21 May 94 17:13:07 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #145, Volume #2                Sat, 21 May 94 17:13:07 EDT

Contents:
  Re: Help selecting good SCSI disk (Joni Jarvenkyla)
  Re: Did anyone archive the 'Do you remember....' thread? (Bernd Meyer)
  Re: Learning C++ on Linux? (Louis P. Kruger)
  Re: Linux for the masses? (WordProcessing again) (Lisa Henn)
  Re: Standard Linux GUI (Bernd Meyer)
  Re: postscript converter for linux (Ron Smits)
  Re: Linus's fame -> job offers (Gary Merinstein)
  Re: fsck necessary during boot? (Dan Logue)
  Re: /proc/kcore (Ziniu "Michael" Wei)
  Re: Who are you & what do you do w/ Linux? (Bernd Meyer)
  Re: Question on Linux Mosaic (Rene COUGNENC)
  Re: Linux and the ALPHA flamers... (David Holland)
  LINUX drivers for Cirrus PCMCIA controller? (Chris Schafmeister)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jjj@mits.mdata.fi (Joni Jarvenkyla)
Crossposted-To: comp.arch.storage,comp.periphs.scsi,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
Subject: Re: Help selecting good SCSI disk
Date: 21 May 1994 21:29:19 +0200

In article <1994May19.091716.23065@jet.uk>, Chris Gatcombe <cpg@jet.uk> wrote:
>
>              Seagate  Seagate  Micropolis Digital IBM
>              ST11200N ST31200N MIC2210    DSP3107 45G9466
>Capacity:     1050MB   1052MB   1056MB     1070MB  1052MB
>Avg seek:     10.5ms   9ms      10ms       9.5ms   8.6ms
>Trk/trk seek: 1.5ms    1ms      1.5ms      1ms     0.6
>Cache:        256k     256k     512k       512k    512k
>Size:         HalfHgt  LowProf  HalfHgt    LowProf LowProf

The IBM model number is unfamiliar to me, but it looks like you are
talking about the IBM 0662-S12, code name "Spittfire".

The Spittfire is a wonderful drive. What you have not listed above is
the media transfer rate, which after all is one of the most important
figures for a hard drive! The 8.6 ms seek time is great, but the drive
also features a true 5 megabytes/second media data transfer rate, which
is very fast.

Some could consider its MTBF of more than 90 years a joke, but from my
own experience I can say that this drive is more realiable than most of
the others on the market -- I have sold more IBM's than all other 1GB
drives combined, but still the IBM is the only drive with which I've
never had faulty units, not from the box nor any user complaints
afterwards.

It is no wonder that my own computer also uses the Spittfire.

-- 
jjj@mits.mdata.fi

------------------------------

From: umisef@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Bernd Meyer)
Subject: Re: Did anyone archive the 'Do you remember....' thread?
Date: 21 May 1994 19:36:11 GMT

las@light-house.uucp wrote:


: : Do you remember ...
: :  - when it took 12 mins for a full kernel rebuild on a 386/25 with 4MB ram?
: :  - byte 510?

: When you had a choice between "jump" and "nojump" libraries.
: When Linus used to have a 386 with a Trident card.
: When dosemu ran only in a character-based mode with funny screen updates.


When you had the choice to either get MCC from Manchester or the
boot/root disk set from Helsinki?
When Linus used to change the yy in "linux x.yy" every few weeks?

Bernie

-- 
"And the band played 'Waltzing Mathilda' /  as we stopped to bury our slain;
And we buried ours / and the Turks buried theirs  | ..... living in Oz ....
And it started all over again"                    | 
(The Pogues, "Waltzing Matilda", orig by Eric Bogle, "And the band played WM")

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: unl.linux,comp.lang.c++
From: lpkruger@flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (Louis P. Kruger)
Subject: Re: Learning C++ on Linux?
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 20:23:49 GMT

Definately check out "The C++ Programming Language, 2nd edition" by
Bjarne Strostroup.  If you're already familiar with programming, it serves
as both an introduction to C++ and OO, and a reference guide to C++
(actually, it's the official reference guide)  I used it to teach myself
C++, knowing C already.  Also,it focuses exclusively on the language and
standard class libraries, so you won't find any platform dependent stuff.

        - Louis

In article <2rejf3$1mp@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Maxim Spivak <maxims@ucsee.EECS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <2rbqlf$i8i@crcnis1.unl.edu>,
>Jeff Epler <jepler@herbie.unl.edu> wrote:
>>I'm interested in learning C++ during my free time this summer, and
>>the only compiler I have easy access to is GCC on my home Linux
>>machine.
>>
>>Does anyone know of a book that is well-suited to what I want?
>> 1) Isn't taylored to a DOS compiler like BC++ -- So no chapters upon
>>    chapters on the BGI or creating a Mouse class or installing an
>>    interrupt or 
>
>A book that's good for learning, nor reference, is _Developing C++ 
>Software_ by Russel Winder (published by Wiley Books, ISBN 
>0-471-93610-3). This is the book they use at UC Berkeley to teach C++ 
>programming. The author says he's tried all the examples using 
>Borland C++ 3.1 and gcc. I liked it.
>
>> 2) Is targeted at the proficient C programmer who is knowledgeless
>>    about this 'objects' thing.
>
>Targeted at both experience C programmers and newcomers to programming. 
>You might end up skipping or skimming the first several chapters before 
>you get to Classes, etc.
>
>>Also, is GCC's c++ compilation really good enough for me to learn c++?
>>I have read, though not understood, about how g++ is still limited
>
>I don't think so. So far I haven't found anything wrong with g++. BTW, 
>it's a true c++ compiler, not a translator-into-C-then-compiler.
>
>>
>>Jeff
>
>Max
>
>
>-- 
>**************************************************************************
>Maxim Spivak                            |  #include <GoBears.h>
>University of California, Berkeley      |  #include <StdDisclaimer.h>
>maxims@ucsee.berkeley.edu               |  #include ".signature"



------------------------------

From: schenn@lerc.nasa.gov (Lisa Henn)
Subject: Re: Linux for the masses? (WordProcessing again)
Date: 21 May 1994 16:01:47 -0400

Well, I'm not a programmer, so I guess I'm one of those novice new Linux
administrators everyone's been talking about.  I am fairly savvy to unix
in general, though (just not administrative issues), so I'm not quite in the
general users category that Byron is talking about.  Nevertheless, here are
my responses:

In article <2rljpv$egt@virgo.cc.gatech.edu>,
Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:

>Where we're having problems breaking through is with the simple core software
>base that many unix OS's don't have because they've never been in the
>personal computer market with all the feature and the right price before.

>some perceptions:

>1) The lemming syndrome: novices need to be able to be part of a group
>   that share similar software. 

I agree.  I think it's because they like to feel like there is plenty of 
support for them if they get stuck.


>3) Word Processing: I've finally figured out that outside of the expert class
>   that folks really only use computers to write documents. 

Absolutely!  And, as you allude to later on, most users write documents with
simple layouts:  tabs to format it left-to-right, carriage returns to format
it top-to-bottom, lines drawn with the _ key or using an underline font,
WYSIWYG.  If they get fancy, a table.  Do you include tables in your essential
task #4, "The ability to include graphics"?

There's one more thing I would add based on my observations of WordPerfect
users:  a spell checker.  I suppose an interface to ispell would work dandily.
   
>   The key to a good
>   WP is that it performs that average WP tasks and not much else.

I would say that a key to a _popular_ WP is that it performs average WP
tasks and not much else.  That way, it focuses on those average tasks and
makes them VERY straightforward for your average user.  This is (part of)
why (imo, of course!), WordPerfect is such a popular package.

We could do one better by making the average tasks straightfoward but 
(somehow) make more complicated tasks readily accessible for those who want
to venture that way.  (That's my big complaint about WordP--it doesn't do
anything more complicated than a memo easily).


>   Most importantly JOE doesn't intimidate folks with hard to use
>   interfaces or massive complexity. Type joe and start typing. Doesn't
>   get much simpler than that. 

Well, that's what most folks like.  I'm not familiar with JOE (I'm one of
the few crazies who uses vi!), but I played iwth it a little in the other
window so that I could respond to the comments you make:

>   2) Attributes: Seems to me that SGML has the right procedural model
>      for attributes: just tag them with text. So it you want something
>      in bold Century 15 pt just tag it:

>      [Cent-b-15]This is Century bold 15 text.[def] and some more text
>      in regular format.

Well, this is rather like what LaTeX does in the extreme, something like:
\begin{rightflush}
{\em blah blah blah}
\end{rightflush}

I tend to think that would detract from the WYSIWIG feature you are trying
to build in.

From my observation of WordP users, the "F11--Reveal Codes" feature is much
like this (even looks like this), but no one uses it because they find it
visually distracting from their document.

It's not my intent to shoot you down; I think this is a hot idea that Linux
and Unix in general sorely need.  I'm just trying to add my observations in
the hope that that would help guide the creation of a more appealing package.


>   4) Included graphics: Encapulated postscript is an obvious choice. 

Some people like other formats, like HPGL.  That may be something for release
2, though.

>      Question: is there a linux tool that is Like Xpaint
>      for VC's. 

You mean with a clipboard and such?  I think that would be a good idea.

>   5) WYSIWIG: I'm a believer in text based applications because I've seen
>      many situations where one works from terminal, over modems, telnet
>      links and the like. 

Well, from what little I saw of Joe, it looks like a lot of the commands
are based on ^T's.  Is that right?  Does that count as text?  I use LaTeX
for my word processing/text formatting and one of the big appeals to me is
that every formatting thing is handled with a display-able character.  If
I go to delete, I know what I'm deleting.  (In WordP you can easily screw up
your document format by careless deletion)


>      text: The most important thing is that the app computes the amount of
>            space each character takes and only show an appropriate number
>            of character for each line. 

I think that's a good idea.  The text-only (over the modem or whatever) 
version isn't going to be _exactly_ WYSIWYG.  Trying to approximate it will
help its appeal.  


>   6) Simple Interface for commands: solution is to use the mouse when at
>      all possible. 

Well, that's what I was going to comment on when I looked at JOE in the 
other screen.  When I have to use WordP, I use a copy that is on a vax that
runs in an Xwindow (so I dont' have to close all my applications to do some
editing).  The X mouse events are apparently very different from WordP mouse
events, so they are simply not supported.  I do all the editing through the
function keys, which i guess is how WordP got its start.  My coworkers use
X also, but when I show them this copy of WordP, they are not interested,
even though they all swear by WordP.  Why?  Because they want to use the
mouse.  They like the pull-down menus.  I can't really blame them--it's a
real hassle to remember shft-f2,2,4,something else, or to look over the
card every time you want to do something.  It's easier to follow along on
the menu.

I guess in the case of JOE it would be pull-up menus.  Currently it seems to
only have the picks on the first level.  It opens a window and then tells 
you what all the ^T commands are that are in that category.  I imagine that
would need to be expanded.


>      Also arrow and control key commands should be available so that
>      terminal users can still work.

I've noticed in DOS applications you can go through the pull-down menus
by hitting the alt key and then moving around.  I would highly recommend
this for the terminal users, to keep the application presentation as
consistant across all situations as possible.

>Anyway given these criteria (and I'll gladly accept any other suggestions)

Well, here's an idea:  someone came by my office a few months ago with a flier.
It was for a graphical WYSIWYG interface to LaTeX.  You typed stuff and 
selected commands much in the way that you do for WordP, but it would write
out LaTeX commands behind the scenes.  The problem with it was that they 
wanted $600 for it.  Here they were trying to compete wtih WordP and they
were charging twice as much.

How about soemthing like that?  That way we can make use of all the 
capabilities of LaTeX (as well as all the extended modules, such as ArabTeX,
MusicTeX (or whatever it is called), etc) but present it in a way that 
the general gropu of users would like.

>We need to somehow develop something that simple, different, and better.

Agreed!

L
-- 
Lisa Henn                     | The other day I learned that I was considered
Analex Corporation            | part of Generation X.  My first reaction was
schenn@e4310h01.lerc.nasa.gov | "Oh, yeah, _right_!"

------------------------------

From: umisef@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Bernd Meyer)
Subject: Re: Standard Linux GUI
Date: 21 May 1994 19:59:42 GMT

Mitchum DSouza (m.dsouza@mrc-apu.cam.ac.uk) wrote:

: If anyone is really interested in building a MOTIF compatable library, I suggest
: they start by looking at the FWF Widgets which have all the 3D effects, RowCol
: Widgets etc and only miss the Drag&Drop which however can be simply implemented
: from rdd.tar.Z. It provides very professional looking GUI's.

: See
:       a.cs.uiuc.edu /pub/FWF

Another possibility would be to start from the OI library, which
ParcPlace has put out a binary version for linux of at no cost, and to
build wrappers around their classes. I exchanged email with Warner about
this sometime ago, and he actually seemed top like the idea, so there
shouldn't be any legal hassles from that side... I hoped to be able to
invest some time to such development, but found that I haven't even time
enough without it :-(

Bernie

-- 
"And the band played 'Waltzing Mathilda' /  as we stopped to bury our slain;
And we buried ours / and the Turks buried theirs  | ..... living in Oz ....
And it started all over again"                    | 
(The Pogues, "Waltzing Matilda", orig by Eric Bogle, "And the band played WM")

------------------------------

From: ron@draconia.hacktic.nl (Ron Smits)
Subject: Re: postscript converter for linux
Date: 21 May 1994 13:13:24 GMT

>>>>> "naji" == naji al-khudairi <nma2255@u.cc.utah.edu> writes:

    naji>       I have been hearing about the Linux Network
    naji> Administrators guide (or something to that affect) on the
    naji> net.  I downloaded it, but I cannot print out postscript
    naji> files.  Is there a small package I can get for Linux that
    naji> will let me print postscript files to a Canon Bubble-Jet
    naji> 200?

    naji> Thanks!

    naji> -- -- Naji M. Khudairi - naji.al-khudairi@m.cc.utah.edu or
    naji> oracle@blkbox.com -- -- Finger nma2255@u.cc.utah.edu for PGP
    naji> 2.3A public key.  --

Look at gs (Ghostscript) from GNU. It is a postscript translation tool
that can dump postscript files on a lot of different printers

--



                Ron Smits
                ron@draconia.hacktic.nl
                Ron.Smits@Netherlands.NCR.COM

/*-( My opinions are my opinions, My boss's opinions are his opinions )-*/
/*-(                They might not be the same                        )-*/

------------------------------

From: gmerin@panix.com (Gary Merinstein)
Subject: Re: Linus's fame -> job offers
Date: 21 May 1994 16:06:29 -0400

In <2rlk3e$hkj@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> umisef@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Bernd Meyer) writes:

>Russell Nelson (nelson@crynwr.crynwr.com) wrote:
>:    a positive way?  He could probably create a cult around us if he wanted.
>: Well, given the size of the Linux community, I'd say that Linus has
>: guaranteed employment for the next ten years.  He could walk into just
>: about any Unix-using house and say "Okay, I'm here for my job", and if
>: they didn't have one, they'd *create* one for him.  I'm sure that
>: Linus has already been asked if he's looking for a job.

>: Fame translates into job offers.


>I have been thinking about this for quite some time - a way to give back
>something to those linux developers out there. The best thing I have
>come up with so far is to offer them a place to sleep and a nice meal if
>they decide to travel.

>So my (very very raw!) suggestion is that we create a list of people who
>would be willing to give a bed (or a place to put the sleeping bag on
>:-), a dinner and a breakfast to, well, anyone listed in the credits
>file - and whoever wishes to be added to that list can send mail asking
>for it. Of course, anybody travelling would have to phone first, and
>prepare for a number of people being out of town or "out of town" or
>....

>What does the rest of the linux community think about this? Any takers?
>I would offer to organize this myself, but as I don't know where I may
>be in 6 weeks time (and the possible locations are about 16,000km apart
>:-), this doesn't seem such a good idea...

what makes you think my company would let him leave, should he show up? :-)


-- 
*** gmerin@panix.com  "..here pigs will fly, lightning will strike twice,  ***
***   mci:  489-6979       hell will freeze over, and eventually,          ***
***   ci$ 74035,1232         things will get really interesting..."        ***

------------------------------

From: dlogue@news.neosoft.com (Dan Logue)
Subject: Re: fsck necessary during boot?
Date: 21 May 1994 20:04:57 GMT

Kai Petzke (wpp@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de) wrote:
: adams@ms.uky.edu (Robert Adams) writes:

: >Is it necessary to run fsck on every boot?  I don't leave my computer on all
: >the time, so every time I boot, I have to sit through the check.  Is it safe
: >to remove fsck, and run it by hand every so often?

If you shutdown normally (which I assume you do something like shutdown -h now)
then it sounds like you just need to change your kernel to read only on boot.

My fsck did check every time and a friend told me to run rdev as follows:
    rdev -r zImage 1     where zImage is my kernel and reinstall as normally
    required when the kernel is updated (lilo or cat to floppy)

    I don't know if it makes a difference but I am using the Debian release of Linux.

    Dan

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.help
From: ziniuwei@acsu.buffalo.edu (Ziniu "Michael" Wei)
Subject: Re: /proc/kcore
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 14:42:19 GMT

Joseph W. Vigneau (joev@otter.WPI.EDU) wrote:
> >
> >This file: /proc/kcore seems to be growing bigger and bigger. It currently
> >stands at 8 MB and appears to be the file that is responsible for chewing
> >up the free space left in my root partition.
> >
> >Is there a program available for me to look at it in a meaningful way?
> >Can I remove it without anything untoward happening to my system?
> >If I can't remove it, can I make a symbolic link for it to somewhere else
> >on another partition where I have more space?

> As far as I remeber, the entire /proc filesystem is kept in memory,
> and not on disk.  Therefore, you shouldn't have to touch the /proc
> filesystem at all.

It is not only kept in the memory, but also not an ordinary filesystem
at all.  /proc doesn't store anything.  It's just the convenient entry
point to the system memory space.  

--
Ziniu Wei               CEDAR, SUNY at Buffalo       ziniuwei@cs.buffalo.edu
Rule # 1:  Network *is* computer

------------------------------

From: umisef@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Bernd Meyer)
Subject: Re: Who are you & what do you do w/ Linux?
Date: 21 May 1994 20:24:30 GMT

Sami-Pekka Hallikas (semi@dream.nullnet.fi) wrote:
: I'm 22 yrs old boy at South West corner of Finland (6 kilometers or about 5
: miles from Turku).

Darn, he is younger than me......

: I heard of linux first time when version was 0.10 or
: something like that. 

And heard of it a bit earlier than me (I first heard about it at around
0.12...)

: I tested it and saw that this might be something.
: I start using Linux from 0.95 version 

... and he even started one version earlier than I did (though my first
system actually was 0.95, but 0.96 came out a few days later, and was
the first one I "ran")...

: and last october I start running my
: bbs with it...

Ha! I beat him on this one - I started my BBS (really a dial-in linux
box, no fancy userinterface, just plain shell accounts and loads of
stuff to download) in December '92. Shut it down on Feb 1st, '94,
though, as I was leaving Germany two weeks later.

: Every day I fix some of this system and write more scripts that help's me
: more and more :-)... 

That's exactly it - not only did it give me easy access to mail and
news, it also allowed me to share my computer with others, to share my
data with the guy next door (via ethernet), while all the time still
allowing me to use things like "log" (a digital simulation package,
really great stuff!) or TeX or write a neural net program in c++ using
the best tested c++ compiler there is.....

Bernie


-- 
"And the band played 'Waltzing Mathilda' /  as we stopped to bury our slain;
And we buried ours / and the Turks buried theirs  | ..... living in Oz ....
And it started all over again"                    | 
(The Pogues, "Waltzing Matilda", orig by Eric Bogle, "And the band played WM")

------------------------------

From: rene@renux.frmug.fr.net (Rene COUGNENC)
Subject: Re: Question on Linux Mosaic
Date: 21 May 1994 00:29:52 GMT
Reply-To: cougnenc@hsc.fr.net (Rene COUGNENC)

Ce brave John Carlos White ecrit:

> I'm seriously considering installing linux on my machine, but
> I have a question about the availability of a WWW browser that
> works at least as well as Mosaic for the X-windowing environment.

> Is the Linux port of Mosaic reasonable close?  This would affect
> my decision to install linux (mosaic for Windows really sucks).


Close.. ?
X-Window runs under Linux, and you can buy a Motif licence.
Mosaic compiled under Linux with Motif, is just Mosaic, no less.

Without Motif, you can use one of the statically linked binaries of Mosaic
floating around.

If you don't need the Motif look &feel, you might have a look at
Chimera. It is a really nice WWW browser, compiling fine on any X11 system.

--
 linux linux linux linux -[ cougnenc@renux.frmug.fr.net ]- linux linux linux 

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Linux and the ALPHA flamers...
From: dholland@husc9.harvard.edu (David Holland)
Date: 20 May 94 02:33:00

evers@plains.NoDak.edu's message of Wed, 18 May 1994 18:07:48 GMT said:

 > These are the type of people who I wonder if they have gotten up close to 
 > a real DEC at all. I have NEVER in the 3 months of use, seen any problems 
 > with the ALPHA other than misconceptions in some peoples minds. Never 
 > once has she ever crashed or shown me a glitch of any sort.

She?

Anyway, it doesn't sound like the Alpha chip is your problem. Sounds
to me like you've had a run-in with OSF/1.

We've had some trouble here with it at times.

--
   - David A. Holland          | "The right to be heard does not automatically
     dholland@husc.harvard.edu |  include the right to be taken seriously."

------------------------------

From: schaf@socrates.ucsf.edu (Chris Schafmeister)
Subject: LINUX drivers for Cirrus PCMCIA controller?
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 02:09:33 GMT


I recently purchased a laptop, an ECHOBook which
has a Cirrus PCMCIA controller (rather than INTEL 82365
controller or Databook TCIC/2 controller).
Are there any Linux drivers that can talk to this chip?

I'd try to write one if I knew where to get the specs...

.Chris.

-- 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Christian E.A.F. Schafmeister               Biophysics graduate student
University of California, San Francisco      UUCP: ucbvax!ucsfcgl!schaf
"Biophysics . . . THE future."             INTERNET: schaf@cgl.ucsf.edu

------------------------------


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