Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #126
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Wed, 18 May 94 00:13:12 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #126, Volume #2                Wed, 18 May 94 00:13:12 EDT

Contents:
  Re: Linux & DEC ALPHAs... (Leon Garde)
  Re: COMAL language (was: Re: Streets named after programming languages) (A.M.Wall)
  Re: Xfree86/mouse/IRQ/config problem (Douglas Donahue)
  Re: What Linux CD distribution to buy? (Andrew Appel)
  Re: Linux in PC Week again (May 9th issue) (gsnyder)
  I got email from Elvis (gsnyder)
  Standard Linux GUI (Andrew Appel)
  Re: Standard Linux GUI (Highlander)
  Re: Linux in PC Week 5/16 (was Re: Linux in PC Week again (May 9thi ssue)  (Bao Chau Ha)
  Re: Linux in PC Week 5/16 (was Re: Linux in PC Week again (May 9thi ssue)  (Yasuo Ohgaki)
  Re: Please help: trouble configuring network (James Hansen)
  Hackers CD. (Was: Re: InfoMagic CD set - WOW!) (Rick)
  Re: [SU PASSWD] Getting a password to SU (Paul Kent)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lgarde@scorch.hna.com.au (Leon Garde)
Subject: Re: Linux & DEC ALPHAs...
Date: Sun, 15 May 1994 16:52:31 GMT

evers@plains.NoDak.edu (Dwight M Evers) writes:

>To all those would be porters of Linux to the DEC ALPHA...

>       I am not the greatest programmer in the world, bu t I would be a 
>bit hessitant none the least about trying it. First, familiarize yourself 
>with the problem at hand.

>The DEC ALPHA is the fastest production 64bit RISC CPU on the market today.
>(aka...VERY VERY BUGGY to those wouldbe software developers. I know of 
>those who have tried and failed...its not pretty.)

>       Now, as far as the raw power of the damn thing, hold your 
>pocketbooks a bit longer folks. There are so few native app's that 
>cantruely take advantage of the damn thing that using it for DOOM or 
>minesweeper is rediculous. And don't tell me you won't either.

>       To J. Paradis who claims to compare the CRAY-1 to the ALPHA...

>               SHAME SHAME SHAME on you!!!

>The Cray-1 did not have all the clock speed that the ALPHA does, 58mHz is 
>what I heard, but it had SMP with shared memory and a solid state disk 
>drive that was about 1/2 a gig...not bad for a comp built 10 years ago. 
>The raw processing speed of the damn thing was enough to make your head 
>spin around so fast that youd look like you were possesed. I was informed 
>that over 100 proccesing units were involved in its math core. That would 
>make its SPECmark-fp around 500!!! But the thing is about asd freindly as 
>a wounded grizzly bear. I don't believe it even ran UNIX!!!

>       I use a DEC to perform 3D cad and some solid modeling with 
>UNI-GRAPHICS. This is not the kind of thing that I would want to have 
>sitting in my house to do WP or 1-2-3 on.

>       Trying to use a Ferrari to do the work of a VW will only make 
>things worse. I don't want to make it seem as if noone needs a DEC, but 
>re-evaluate your needs before putting out the $$$...

>Just my 2gig worth.
>============================================================================
>                       |       "...peace is a thing which a person
>Dwight M. Evers                |           must be willing to fight for..."
>evers@plains.NoDak.edu |
>       NDSU            |                       -Abe Lincoln
>============================================================================

not sure about all you claim there.

i dont think 'acm flight simulator' will run very well even on
a high end 486.

it needed a mips rc2030 (10 SPECmarks ?? )

i think, what you saying is that 'doom works on a 486, so you dont
need it to run on an alpha (or other more powerful processor)

BUT, if the writers of doom had the luxury of the alpha,
then you can be sure it would be much better 'virtual reality' then it
is now. that is, if the writerd didnt have to spend so much time
writing optimised code, a. they wouldnt have had to spend so much time
debugging the code (the straightforward  code running slower ,
whereas optimised complex/ interwined and special cased code
ends up with lots of bugs ..)

then b. the 3d/motion object intereaction effects would be
more complex, and graphics detial could have been improved and
additional views of the action could have been implemented and ..
etc

but once there doom for alpha was finished, you could bet it would
need the power of the alpha to run it !
i mean, if they optimised it, they might get it running using
20% of the alpha cycles , but that wouldn't mean that
a processor 1/5 of the power could run doom ...



-- 
leon garde; lgarde@scorch.hna.com.au

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: alt.folklore.computers
From: A.M.Wall@newcastle.ac.uk (A.M.Wall)
Subject: Re: COMAL language (was: Re: Streets named after programming languages)
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 14:42:35 GMT

In article <HAGEN.94May17133147@verdande.iesd.auc.dk> hagen@iesd.auc.dk (Jesper Hagen) writes:
>>>>>> "Ben" == Ben Coleman <benc@netcom.com> writes:
>
>    Ben> Kurt Wm. Hemr, Harvard Law School (hemr@hulaw1.harvard.edu)
>    Ben> wrote: :> Apropos of Commodore's death [Warning: impending
>    Ben> topic drift] :> does anyone remember a language called COMAL?
>    Ben> Did this language :> ever exist on a system besides the C64?
>    Ben> If not, any reason why?
>
>    Ben> I seem to remember it eventually being ported to the PC.
>
>    Ben> Ben
>
>It was also ported to the Commodore Amiga.
>
>Hagen

There was a version for the BBC micro.


------------------------------

From: odoncaoa@panix.com (Douglas Donahue)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.os.linux.development,alt.uu.comp.os.linux.questions,aus.computers.linux,fr.comp.os.linux,maus.os.linux,de.comp.os.linux,fj.os.linux,no.linux
Subject: Re: Xfree86/mouse/IRQ/config problem
Date: 17 May 1994 19:12:21 -0400

Douglas Donahue (odoncaoa@panix.com) wrote: ...

I forgot to mention that the 'selection' executable seems to work just fine. 

------------------------------

From: aappel@panix.com (Andrew Appel)
Subject: Re: What Linux CD distribution to buy?
Date: 17 May 1994 13:11:33 -0400

In article <SBROWN.94May17082554@charon.dseg.ti.com> sbrown@charon.dseg.ti.com (Steve Brown) writes:
>In article <2r4lr1$jpl@crl.crl.com> francr@crl.com (Franc Ragsac) writes:
>
>> I'm shopping for Linux in CDs.
>> I've heard TransAmeritech, Walnut  Creek and Ygdrassil.
>> Anyone know which one is easier to install?
>
>Might have a limited set of people who are able to answer this - those
>who have installed multiple versions?  :-)
>
>My only contribution is this:
>
>  I don't see how anything could be much _easier_ to install than
>  the TransAmeritech version.  I was very impressed.  I have 
>  participated in installations of software costing thousands of
>  dollars that did not install as smoothly as Slackware from
>  the latest TransAmeritech CD-ROM.
>
>I have no relationship to TransAmeritech other than that of a satisfied
>customer.
>
>My $0.02 worth.
>
>              *********************************************
>              |  Steve Brown, WD5HCY         | Simplicate |
>              |  sbrown@charon.dseg.ti.com   | and add    |
>              |  wd5hcy@wd5hcy.ampr.org      | lightness. |
>              |       [44.28.0.61]           |            |
>              *********************************************

And here's my $0.02 worth.

Go with the TransAmeritech.  It's complete, easy and the price is right!


------------------------------

From: Gerald_C_Snyder@ccmail.jpl.nasa.gov (gsnyder)
Subject: Re: Linux in PC Week again (May 9th issue)
Date: 17 May 1994 14:02:14 GMT

In article <newcombe.174.00D84879@aa.csc.peachnet.edu>, newcombe@aa.csc.peachnet.edu (Dan Newcombe) says:
>
>
>To anyone that is thinking of buying a computer, I'd wait a bit, and see what 
>the Pentium, 486DX4, and PowerPC does to the high-end 486dx2 market.

Ah, the never-ending wait.  Soon the Sexium and 486dx10-1000 will
be driving down the prices of Pentia and DX4's.

Of course, the basic thought is right. If you don't _need_ to buy now,
wait and you will get more for your money.

>Dan Newcombe                    newcombe@aa.csc.peachnet.edu
>Clayton State College           Morrow, Georgia

Gerry Snyder


------------------------------

From: Gerald_C_Snyder@ccmail.jpl.nasa.gov (gsnyder)
Subject: I got email from Elvis
Date: 17 May 1994 14:08:00 GMT

For the last couple of months I have been having a blast
learning/using Linux on my home PC. Every day I am more
in awe of how powerful the system is.

Yesterday I needed to mount a floppy to get to a file, so
I switched VC's and logged on as root.  There was a logon
message saying that I had new mail--and my system has
never been connected to anything.

I know almost nothing about unix mail (haven't got that far
yet), but I managed to get the mail message printed without
much difficulty (the system did _not_ live up to its reputation
for being user-unfriendly).  It was from Elvis, saying that the
last time I shut down the system, I had been editing a file, and
that I could recover whatever changes I had made by running
elvrec.

All I can say is "WOW!!!"  Thank you Linus T., Patrick V., and
countless others for making such incredible power available
(and relatively easy to get working, considering all that is going
on "behind the scenes").

BTW, special thanks to Matt W., whose Linux Installation and
Getting Started has made learning/using _much_ less time-
consuming than I had expected.

I always have some kind of problem to work on (right now
I'm trying to find device x11 which ghostview is looking for),
but that is just how the learning process goes.

Gerry Snyder, enthusiastic Linux newbie

------------------------------

From: aappel@panix.com (Andrew Appel)
Subject: Standard Linux GUI
Date: 17 May 1994 13:46:41 -0400

Is it just me or does anybody else feel that what the Linux (UNIX) 
community needs is a SINGLE, STANDARD, ONLY ONE, Graphical User Interface 
(GUI)?  The purpose of a GUI is to reduce the learning curve when moving 
from application to application in a graphical environment.  Unfortunately, 
due to the lack of any real (FREE) standards, it is just as aggravating 
to move between many X applications as it is between most TEXT applications.

I'd love to see Linux workstations in every home, every office, all 
across America and the World, but the reality is that Microsoft Windows, 
Macintosh, and NextStep are all standard GUIs that the average users can 
figure out.  For those of you who don't understand purchasing in large 
corporations: "IT IS THOSE AVERAGE USERS, NOT THE TECH WEENIES, THAT ARE 
MAKING THE PURCHASING DECISIONS!"

Any comments?  (ANDY)

P.S.  Before you mention MOTIF remember that it also is not free!

------------------------------

From: tabaer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Highlander)
Subject: Re: Standard Linux GUI
Date: 17 May 1994 18:46:27 GMT

In article <2ravu1$8gm@panix.com>, Andrew Appel <aappel@panix.com> wrote:
>Is it just me or does anybody else feel that what the Linux (UNIX) 
>community needs is a SINGLE, STANDARD, ONLY ONE, Graphical User Interface 
>(GUI)?  The purpose of a GUI is to reduce the learning curve when moving 
>from application to application in a graphical environment.  Unfortunately, 
>due to the lack of any real (FREE) standards, it is just as aggravating 
>to move between many X applications as it is between most TEXT applications.

Well, OpenLook is freely available, but it's not too hot of an interface IMHO.
Maybe people can be convinced to standardize in Tcl/Tk, or the Notif
project if anything comes of it (not intended as a slam, I just haven't
heard if any progress has been made).  There's also OpenStep, which
is a PD specification of parts of NeXTStep, but without a freely available
implementation it's just talk.  Has anybody set about writing this?
(No, I'm not volunteering.  I'm trying to learn C, Tcl/Tk, and the XF
GUI builder even as we speak.)

>I'd love to see Linux workstations in every home, every office, all 
>across America and the World, but the reality is that Microsoft Windows, 
>Macintosh, and NextStep are all standard GUIs that the average users can 
>figure out.  For those of you who don't understand purchasing in large 
>corporations: "IT IS THOSE AVERAGE USERS, NOT THE TECH WEENIES, THAT ARE 
>MAKING THE PURCHASING DECISIONS!"

Part of the problem is that it's the "tech weenies," not the "average
users," who WRITE the applications, and they tend toward whatever GUI
they know how to use or are learning to use.

IMHO, what's needed is a GUI style guide like those available for MacOS
and NeXTStep.  I've seriously considered buying the NeXT style guide
as a reference, but I'm not sure how DPS- and NeXT-specific stuff it
will has (and I'm short on cash right now).  Perhaps this could turn
into an LDP project, but most of the LDP people are massively overworked
as it is.  (I might be able to work on this next year, depending how
things go academically.)

>P.S.  Before you mention MOTIF remember that it also is not free!

Right, but the spec is in the PD, so hopefully Notif won't get drilled
on legal grounds.

Later,
        --Troy
+--------------------+------------------------------------------------+
|   Troy A. Baer     | "My soul is painted like wings of butterflies, |
| Senior, Aero. Engr.|  Fairy tales of yesterday, grow but never die, |
| DOS?!? Try Linux!! |  I can fly, my friends!"  --Brian May          |
+--------------------+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

From: habaoch@eng.auburn.edu (Bao Chau Ha)
Subject: Re: Linux in PC Week 5/16 (was Re: Linux in PC Week again (May 9thi ssue) 
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 14:02:38 GMT

In article <1994May17.062952.5218@mp.cs.niu.edu> yuan@tyuan.chi.il.us writes:
>This issue, again, gets into more details which all of you folks may
>be interested in reading it. Again, this half of the article shows on
>the cover page. Let me quote a bit from it:
>
>  "priced at $99"
>  "could debut in July"
>  "combines Novell DOS 7"
>  "will run on Intel and PowerPC processors and other leading RISC
>   platforms"
>  "users will be able to run indows, DOS and Internet Application Binary
>   Interface compliant Unix applications simultaneously"
>
>  --yuan
>   
>  p.s. I rather not believe this is rumor for the reason that PC Week
>   has been reporting Novell's Linux every week lately :-)  How are you 
>   feeling?
>
I still think it is a rumor.  PC-WEEK lab has a Linux machine that
they have been very happy with it.  I think somebody in PC-WEEK
just try to promote Linux.

Anyway, it is a good thing to get positive exposures on a
predominatly DOS/Windows trade mag. 8-)

Bao

------------------------------

From: yasuo@diana.cair.du.edu (Yasuo Ohgaki)
Subject: Re: Linux in PC Week 5/16 (was Re: Linux in PC Week again (May 9thi ssue) 
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 14:43:06 GMT

yuan@tyuan.chi.il.us wrote:
: This issue, again, gets into more details which all of you folks may
: be interested in reading it. Again, this half of the article shows on
: the cover page. Let me quote a bit from it:

:   "priced at $99"
:   "could debut in July"
:   "combines Novell DOS 7"

I don't remember what is Novell DOS 7, but it has preempitive kernel
right? How will it work under Linux?

:   "will run on Intel and PowerPC processors and other leading RISC
:    platforms"

Wow. Novell is going to port Linux to other platforms? Are they will be
avable as free- for in stance for PowerPC.

:   "users will be able to run indows, DOS and Internet Application Binary
:    Interface compliant Unix applications simultaneously"

:   --yuan
:    
:   p.s. I rather not believe this is rumor for the reason that PC Week
:    has been reporting Novell's Linux every week lately :-)  How are you 
:    feeling?

:  
: -- 


--
Yasuo Ohgaki
e-mail: yohgaki@diana.cair.du.edu <= This is correct address.
                                     Please use this address.

------------------------------

From: jhansen@convex.com (James Hansen)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin
Subject: Re: Please help: trouble configuring network
Date: 17 May 94 15:35:38 GMT

Luke M Kaven writes:

>/sbin/ifconfig lo 127.0.0.1
>/sbin/route add -net 127.0.0.0


>IPADDR=192.76.178.28
>NETMASK=255.255.255.0
>NETWORK=192.76.178.0
>BROADCAST=192.76.178.255
>GATEWAY=192.76.178.1

>/sbin/ifconfig eth0 ${IPADDR} broadcast ${BROADCAST} netmask ${NETMASK}
>/sbin/route add -net ${NETWORK} netmask ${NETMASK}
>/sbin/route add default gw ${GATEWAY} metric 1

Well, nowhere do you say "up" on the ifconfig command.  Not knowing a
thing about Linux, but something about BSD UNIX, my guess is that's
what is missing.

-- 
James B. Hansen                               CONVEX Computer Corporation
Software Instructor/Network Technical Support      3000 Waterview Parkway
jhansen@convex.com                                        P.O. Box 833851
Phone: (214)497-4802                            Richardson, TX 75083-3851

------------------------------

From: pclink@qus102.qld.tne.oz.au (Rick)
Subject: Hackers CD. (Was: Re: InfoMagic CD set - WOW!)
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 00:42:01 GMT

dt@yenta.yenta.abq.nm.us (David B. Thomas) writes:

>Put me down for an AMEN BROTHER!  The infomagic linux CD set is a
>Linux hacker's wet dream.  I've used it extensively and I'm so pleased
>that my coworkers are geting tired of hearing about how good it is.

While I'm happy with the set, it's not quite the wet dream I was hoping
it would be.  I realize that it's only meant to be dumps from the major
linux archives, but there are significant sources missing - elm24
(elm23 is there), smail3.1.28 (.25 there), pine389 (305), metamail,
inn, mh, nn.  I don't know what else isn't there, as the observant will
realize I'm overhauling my news/mail setup, and that's all I've been
looking for.  TransAmeritech have done a neat thing with their latest
release - Roman has tracked down the source for all of the packages in
Slackware, and created a parallel directory structure containing the
source.  With the time and effort Joel put into creating this set, it's
a pity he couldn't spare the resources to do something similar.

Before the faithful flame me for this slightly negative comment, be
aware that the set does as is advertised, and I'm satisfied with it.
However, as a long time hacker, I *always* want *full* source for
whatever I'm using.  That's why I got involved with Linux in the first
place.  As a hacker, I also like to dabble in other areas - audio/video
processing, AI, db's, speech synthesis, VR, GUI's, etc.

Who's interested in a hackers CD?

I envisage a CD with a minimum Linux runtime - kernel, boot utils, and
compiler.  The rest of the CD is filled to capacity with gzip'ed source
code, say 1Gb of the finest hackery.  Any takers?  Any suggestions on
what to include?

Rick.

------------------------------

From: kent@unx.sas.com (Paul Kent)
Subject: Re: [SU PASSWD] Getting a password to SU
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 18:52:29 GMT

In <DAVE.94May17171630@thomases.thomases.demon.co.uk> dave@thomases.demon.co.uk (Dave Thomas) writes:


>
>I've a shell script that starts up DIP/SLIP. It has to be run as
>root.
>
>I'm looking for a way of running it from non-privileged sessions.
>However,
>      
>        ``su - -c start.dip''
>
>opens /dev/tty and reads the root password from it. I can't
>overcome this behaviour (I tried renaming /dev/tty, sticking my
>password in a file called /dev/tty and letting su read that - it
>checks that /dev/tty _is_ a tty!). 
>
>So, how can I hack this so I can start DIP using a single
>command?
>

i found that "super" from
 
/* Will Deich
 * Caltech  105-24, Pasadena, CA 91125
 * Internet: will@astro.caltech.edu
 */


was quite good. it came from /users/will@astro.caltech.edu
aand here are the first few paras from the manpage.


perhaps it will help you too.. (mine is used for start/stop dip
as well as mount/unmout cd amongst other things)



nice job, will!


cheers
paul

============================================

Super(1) is a setuid-root program that offers

    o  restricted setuid-root access to executables, adjustable
        on a per-program and per-user basis;

    o  a relatively secure environment for scripts, so that well-written
        scripts can be run as root (or some other uid/gid), without
        unduly compromising security.

Sample uses:
    -  to call a script that allows users to use mount(8) on
        cdrom's or floppy disks, but not other devices.

    -  to restrict which users, on which hosts, may execute a
        setuid-root program.

    -  to call a script that allows users to send STOP/CONT
        signals to certain jobs, but not others.

====================

Super and sudo

I have received some enquiries regarding the difference between super
and sudo, another program designed to give restricted access to certain
commands.

Sudo --
    Sudo allows a permitted user to execute a command as the superuser.
    I think its central design philosophy is that each user can be
    trusted when executing certain commands.  This is implemented
    by allowing each user to execute the restricted commands for
    which s/he is trusted, without giving access to other restricted commands.

Super --
    The design philosophy behind super is two-fold:
    (a) some users can be trusted when executing certain commands;
    (b) there are some commands, such as a script to mount CDROM's,
        which you'd like to be safely executable even by users who
        are NOT trusted.  Although setuid-root scripts are insecure,
        a good setuid-root wrapper around a sensible non-setuid script
        can be hard to break, and super provides that wrapper so that
        even a non-trusted user can use the scripts.

In my view, the main differences to the administrator are:

    (1) the files that specify valid user/command combinations have
        a different look and feel.

    (2) super provides a safe wrapper for scripts, so that a
        well-written script can be run safely by ordinary
        users without having to actually trust them.

===================

A "super.tab" file names each command that super is willing to execute, and
says who can use it. It contains lines like:

    command     fullpathname            valid-user/group/host ed-type patterns
e.g.
    cdmount     /usr/local/bin/cdmount  {harry,sally}@kaa tom@surya
    cdumount    /usr/local/bin/cdumount {harry,sally}@kaa tom@surya

To execute a super command, type

    % super command [args...]

If <command> is "-h" or "-?", or missing, super prints its current
list of allowed commands, but nothing is executed.

Each entry in the super.tab file can contain a variety of options, which
include such things as setting the real uid and/or gid to something other
than root, requiring the user's password before executing the command,
and so on.

If a user is allowed to execute a given <command>, the <fullpathname>
is exec'd, with <command> as argv[0].  The superuser is always
allowed to execute any super command.  By default, the effective uid
is set to 0 (root) before executing the command.

For security, the environment variables are discarded, save for TERM, 
LINES, and COLUMNS. If TERM contains any characters other than 
[a-z][A-Z][0-9]_+.:/-, it is discarded. If LINES or COLUMNS contains
any characters other than [0-9], they are discarded. To these are
added reasonable values for IFS, PATH, USER and HOME (USER and HOME
are set to the username and login directory, respectively, of the
real uid under which the command is executed by super). LOGNAME is
set to the same as USER. SUPERCMD is set to the <command>. ORIG_USER,
ORIG_LOGNAME, and ORIG_HOME are set to the USER, LOGNAME, and HOME of
the user who invoked super. All descriptors excepting 0,1,2 are closed.
Signals are all reset to have default handling. 



    You can make your script automatically invoke super on
    itself by starting a script in the following manner:

        #!/bin/sh
        prog=`basename $0`
        test "$SUPERCMD" = "$prog" || exec /usr/local/bin/super $prog ${1+"$@"}


--

Paul Kent (Base SAS R&D)              " nothing ventured, nothing disclaimed "
kent@unx.sas.com         SAS Institute Inc, SAS Campus Dr, Cary NC 27513-2414.

------------------------------


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