Subject: Linux-Development Digest #738
From: Digestifier <Linux-Development-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Fri, 20 May 94 06:13:05 EDT

Linux-Development Digest #738, Volume #1         Fri, 20 May 94 06:13:05 EDT

Contents:
  Re: In defence of variety (was Re: Distributions considered harmful) (Brandon S. Allbery)
  Re: Mounting the CD-ROM (Mitsumi) (Peter Desnoyers)
  Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7 (Thomas G. McWilliams)
  Netboot image for 3Com Etherlink III (Benny Holmgren)
  Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7 (Mark Evans)
  data acquisition board drivers: do they exist? (Richard M. Jeo)
  Re: Keeping data structures in memory (David Monro)
  Distributions considered harmful (Russell Nelson)
  Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7 (Mark A. Davis)
  Re: In defence of variety (was Re: Distributions considered harmful) (Alan Cox)
  What is the status of the kernel modules extension? (Alon Ziv)
  Re: In defence of variety, but with consistancy (Mike Jagdis)
  Help! File Locking (Jason Malaure)
  Re: PC WEEK: NOVEL's new OS??? - Linux - (Harald Milz)
  Re: Terminator-Power Question (Harald Milz)
  Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7 (Systemkennung Linux)
  Re: In defence of variety, but with consistancy (David Marples)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery)
Subject: Re: In defence of variety (was Re: Distributions considered harmful)
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 22:12:24 GMT

In article <2rb70q$e5p@crcnis1.unl.edu>, jepler@herbie.unl.edu (Jeff Epler) says:
+---------------
| 'truly innovative' is the SLS Modular Kernel.  I don't know if it's
| not a part of the standard kernel because it is still quirky (I see
| many posts about people trying to compile the SLS kernel, but I
| haven't read any of them), because the SLS maintainer doesn't want the
| mainstrean kernel to have these features (This would likely violate
| the GPL), or because Linus just doesn't want those drivers there...
+------------->8

Because Linus doesn't like the SLS implementation and various folks on the
KERNEL channel are supposedly working on alternatives.

| using the TeX package from SLS because it didn't have its own.  The
| differences are primarily cosmetic, and have probably lessened since
| FSSTND.  Usually the procedure is:
+------------->8

FSSTND deliberately doesn't specify how packages work.  And from some of the
discussion on the debian-devel list, it's not certain whether Debian will stay
compatible with untar-into-/ or not.

And at the risk of throwing in a hot potato, anyone know how Novell is
thinking of packages with Expose/Corsair?  (Probably SVR4 pkg or a free clone
thereof --- partial code already exists for the latter, I hear.)

In any case, I'm no longer worrying about distributions that much because
FSSTND (and Debian in particular) seem to be h*ll-bent on disenfranchising
folks who need to be compatible with other systems for network mounting or use
of iBCS software which wants iBCS standard paths.  (I brought this up once on
FSSTND and was bluntly told that that was unimportant.  I haven't bothered to
mention it since; it may not be important to them, but in my environment it's
essential.)

++Brandon
-- 
Brandon S. Allbery         kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org          bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org
The FUDs at Microsoft are shouting "Kill The Wabi!"

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
From: peterd@pjd.dev.cdx.mot.com (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: Mounting the CD-ROM (Mitsumi)
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 12:37:52 GMT

culliton@ceres.srg (Tom Culliton x2278) writes:

>I have a problem mounting my CD-ROM device too.  About 20-50% of the
>time the system will complain that it "can't read the super block", or
>give the generic mount error about "unknown fs type, already mounted,
>or..."  (these aren't he exact messages, but you get the point...) 
>Retrying exactly the same command will sometimes work and sometimes not.
>Rebooting the system and retrying the command hasn't failed yet.

>This is running Slackware 1.20, with the kernel patched to version 1.0.9,
>on a Gateway 2000 P5-66, with a polled Mitsumi CD ROM drive, using IRQ 11
>and address 0x300.

Not sure, but try checking your syslog (/var/adm/messages, probably)
for error reports from the mcd driver. It probably timed out or
something. 

I've had this problem when mounting my 2x Mitsumi after swapping
disks, but never on boot. (I normally mount the cdrom from /etc/fstab)
The drive might take some time to settle down after inserting a disk
or something. (I wish they'd turn the light on if that was the case.)

[by the way, someone mentioned trying to speed up the Mitsumi driver a
while back - I've poked around with the driver some and I'm really
interested in helping. There doesn't seem to be a channel appropriate
for this, unless it's the KERNEL one...]

                                Peter Desnoyers
-- 

------------------------------

From: tgm@netcom.com (Thomas G. McWilliams)
Subject: Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 20:39:57 GMT

: Think about the possibilities. Linux, DOS and Windows all on the same
: desktop, in their own windows. Ill be waiting over here in front of
: the window marked "Corsair, coming soon".

It is interesting to note that Novell now owns WorkPerfect.
Would Novell make their WordPerfect available for their Linux?
Novell's WordPerfect for Linux?

Thomas

------------------------------

From: bigfoot@Astrakan.HGS.SE (Benny Holmgren)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin
Subject: Netboot image for 3Com Etherlink III
Date: 19 May 1994 18:49:54 GMT
Reply-To: bigfoot@Astrakan.HGS.SE

Hi.
I need a tftp/bootp image for a 3Com Etherlink III card. The driver
code for 3Com doesn't seem to support the Etherlink III card so I 
wonder if someone has ported netboot to it? If so, please mail me..

  / Benny


---
Benny Holmgren                                      bigfoot@astrakan.hgs.se
Astrakan Computer Club                                       tdi9110@hgs.se
Sweden                                "It's not about length, it's shoesize"



------------------------------

From: evansmp@mb52112.aston.ac.uk (Mark Evans)
Subject: Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 21:04:11 GMT

Matt Welsh (mdw@cs.cornell.edu) wrote:

: I find it highly unlikely that Novell's support for running MS-Windows
: apps were integrated into the Linux kernel. Therefore, it's quite possible
: that many of these "fantastic" features that we're hearing about won't
: be freely distributable at all. Novell is only required to distribute 
: code for free that is based on GPL code, e.g., any modifications to the
: Linux kernel itself. This does not entail that the entire system will be
: placed under the GPL.

Unless, of course, their windows support is based on WINE. Which I undestand
was being used by some people at Novell


------------------------------

From: jeo@cco.caltech.edu (Richard M. Jeo)
Subject: data acquisition board drivers: do they exist?
Date: 17 May 1994 22:52:50 GMT

Do software drivers exist for any PC data acquisition boards? 
(e.g. the Metrabyte DAS-16 or any National Instruments
boards). 

The sound card drivers are great, but are obviously limited to
the hardware capabilities of the sound card.
Drivers for "serious" data collection boards would make Linux
even more useful, especially for scientists.  

--
Richard Jeo
Caltech Division of Biology 216-76
Pasadena, CA 91125
jeo@cco.caltech.edu


------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
From: davem@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (David Monro)
Subject: Re: Keeping data structures in memory
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 15:54:17 GMT

terence@soldev.tti.com (Terence Davis) writes:


>Hi,

>  A student in a class of mine wants to be able to keep large data structures, 
>i.e. 10 or more megabytes, in RAM.  He wants to force the objects into RAM and 
>doesn't want them paged out.  Assuming he has enough real RAM, what's the 
>algorithm Linux uses to page stuff out.  Is there a way to lock the memory for 
>particular data structures in RAM?

I wanted to do this and found a way - note that this is a bit kludgy
but suited my particular app...
1) Allocate the buffer as a shared memory area, using shmget and
shmat.
2) Use shmctl(<memid> SHM_LOCK, NULL) to lock the structure down. Note
this only succeeds as root, so run the program setuid root - I think
this is true of most syscalls to lock down memory anyway.

(I wanted shared memory anyway, so this suited me).

        David

>Thanks,

>Terry (terence@soldev.tti.com)


------------------------------

From: nelson@crynwr.crynwr.com (Russell Nelson)
Subject: Distributions considered harmful
Date: 17 May 1994 10:35:49 GMT

I don't think the current state of Linux distributions is good.  Free
software works because the users can be programmers, and everyone can
cooperate.  But with the various distributions, we have
noncooperation.  Guys, that's what the SysV people do, not us.  They
feel a need to differentiate their product from the base System V
distribution from USL.  So when they fix a bug, or add a feature, they
*don't* send it back to USL.

We can do better than that.

We've got at least four different package conventions (SLS, Slackware,
Debian and Yggdrasil).  Why?  No good reason I can see.  FTP sites
carry these different distributions, most of which differ only slightly.

I feel that there is need, and room, for two Linux distributions, one
conservative, and the other radical.  The conservative distribution is
probably the harder, and potentially more money-making, distribution
to do.  It is marketed at Linux "users".  People who don't want to
have to fiddle.  People who are willing to pay for the software to
"just work".  So the conservative distribution has its work (and
profit) cut out for it.

And there's plenty of money to be made on the radical distribution,
because it's obvious that some people out there want the latest and
greatest, and they're willing to pay for it.  "Who has the latest CD"
is the subject of a recent Usenet message.

And multiple distributions are not good, because they tend to fragment
the market.  The Linux market is small enough as it is -- we don't
need to make it smaller!  If I'm running Slackware, I don't feel like
I can purchase SLS's support package.  Or if I've bought Yggdrasil's
CD-ROM, can I install an slackware package?  And not break everything?

And Adam's not doing himself any favors by not creating an FTPable
Yggdrasil distribution.  In the free software market, you create
business by giving away your software to create a need for your
services.  The less you give away your software, the less your
services are needed.

And Debian, while it has the support and name of the FSF, is just
plain not needed.  Much, much better to fix the problems with
Slackware, SLS, or Yggdrasil.

We should start with a merger between SLS and Slackware.  Send your
requests for same to Peter and Patrick, imploring them to cooperate
for the betterment of all.  Yes, they've had words, but they should
still be able to work together.

So who am I to be giving out all this free advice?  Why, just someone
who's been supporting himself for 2.5 years by selling support for
free software.

--
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com>      ftp.msen.com:pub/vendor/crynwr/crynwr.wav
Crynwr Software   | Crynwr Software sells packet driver support | ask4 PGP key
11 Grant St.      | +1 315 268 1925 (9201 FAX)    | Quakers do it in the light
Potsdam, NY 13676 | LPF member - ask me about the harm software patents do.

------------------------------

From: mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis)
Subject: Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 18:09:30 GMT

ekimmina@pms709.pms.ford.com (Eric Kimminau) writes:

>Reprinted verbatim from an article by Anne Knowles in the May 16th,
>1994 issue of PCWeek Magazine without permission of Ziff publishing
>Corp. The article appeared on page 1, with a continuation on page 14.

>Novell Inc. is targeting July for the launch of its 32bit multitasking
>desktop operating system called Corsair. Tentatively priced at $99.00,
>the operating system combines Novell DOS7 with a kerrnel based on
>Linux 1.0, a Unix clone for Intel Corp. PCs that is freely available
>over the Internet, according to a Novell internal document examined by
>PCWeek.

>Look at the price. Novell DOS 7 is selling for like $59 or $69.00
>right now and includes a whole boatload of stuff INCLUDING the newest
>version of Stacker. Lets take a really wild stab at something and hope

Keep in mind, people, that Unixware list price is over $250.  But it sells
for $166 or LESS on the street.  If the same is true for Corsair, it's
price would be around $69...........   WOW

-- 
  /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
  | Mark A. Davis    | Lake Taylor Hospital | Norfolk, VA (804)-461-5001x431 |
  | Sys.Administrator|  Computer Services   | mark@taylor.wyvern.com   .uucp |
  \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/

------------------------------

From: iiitac@uk.ac.swan.pyr (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: In defence of variety (was Re: Distributions considered harmful)
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 21:57:59 GMT

In article <2rb70q$e5p@crcnis1.unl.edu> jepler@herbie.unl.edu (Jeff Epler) writes:
>nelson@crynwr.crynwr.com (Russell Nelson) writes:
>
>>I don't think the current state of Linux distributions is good.  Free
>>software works because the users can be programmers, and everyone can
>>cooperate.  But with the various distributions, we have
>>noncooperation.  
>
>I don't have that much of a problem with the fact that there are
>different distributions.  Of course, I may not like some of them
>much...

This suggests to me that we need a more detailed FSSTND and a standard
for package formatting.

Alan


------------------------------

From: alonz@csa.cs.technion.ac.il (Alon Ziv)
Subject: What is the status of the kernel modules extension?
Reply-To: alonz@csa.cs.technion.ac.il (Alon Ziv)
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 19:53:18 GMT

I would like to know the *exact* (linus-authorized?) current status of
the module extensions to linux.  In my opinion, those have come to be
considered one of the main features of Linux, while they are not even
part of the basic kernel!  *Some* decision has to be made...

Just my 2c...

-Alon Ziv
 Software Engineer

------------------------------

From: jaggy@purplet.demon.co.uk (Mike Jagdis)
Subject: Re: In defence of variety, but with consistancy
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 23:14:00 +0000

* In a message originally to All, David Marples said:

DM> Yep, seems entirely reasonable.  Putting stuff in standard directories
DM> as specified by a (more detailed) FSSTND and also making a note of
DM> where you've put stuff (in a standard format) in another standard
DM> place so that you can take it back out.....  Thumbs in for that.

Did this for the Purple Distribution back when SLS was a baby and boot 'n 
root disks were the order of the day.

  Packages live in their own directory hierarchies and have a map file that 
describes how they fit in to a system (along with version numbers for 
conflict resolution).

  A (reasonably) simply tool keeps track of what packages are installed and 
builds the target structure using the package maps. Multiple targets are 
possible so /usr/X386 could be built separately for example (and possibly 
mounted from elsewhere).

  It's easy to uninstall packages.

  It's easy to slide in upgrades.

  It's easy to give a package to someone else - just tar it off your running 
system (one of the main reasons I did it this way as it happens).

  It never made it to an Internet site though. Every so often this thread 
crops up and people say this is the sort of thing they might like. But every 
time I say it exists the result is total apathy. It *may* make it to the all 
new ftp.linux.org - but I'm on a modem here and it isn't likely to happen 
unless there are others willing to use the format for their releases (i.e. 
include a map file and some reasonably smart setup scripts).

DM> That way I can take what packages I want from wherever I
DM> want and hook them together to make the <Dave> installation

Exactly. It shouldn't be a case of having a particular distribution. Just a 
case of having a collection of packages that you can put together and pull 
apart like lego(tm).

                                Mike  
 

------------------------------

From: Jason@intrsrch.demon.co.uk (Jason Malaure)
Subject: Help! File Locking
Reply-To: Jason@intrsrch.demon.co.uk
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 23:06:33 +0000

Hi! 

Has anyone had any experiences with file locking using PC-NFS to access
a shared disk? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

-- 
Jason Malaure

------------------------------

From: hm@seneca.ix.de (Harald Milz)
Subject: Re: PC WEEK: NOVEL's new OS??? - Linux -
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 07:32:49 GMT
Reply-To: hm@seneca.ix.de

Henry Williams (Henry_Williams@fcircus.sat.tx.us) wrote:
: > Okay, what exactly do you know about it?? For example, release date,
: > machine spec's, distribution media?? What????

This has been thoroughly discussed in this and other c.o.l.* groups 
during the last few weeks. 

: > Thanks in advance.....(BTW please respond to hgwill@zilker.net, as I only
: > frequent this board on weekends.)

In this case you should consider asking your news admin to extend the 
expire times for c.o.l.* maybe.

No offend, though.

Ciao,
hm

-- 
Harald Milz                             office: hm@ix.de
iX Multiuser Multitasking Magazine      home:   hm@seneca.ix.de
Opinions are mine, not my employer's -- the answer is Forty-two


------------------------------

From: hm@seneca.ix.de (Harald Milz)
Subject: Re: Terminator-Power Question
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 07:34:32 GMT
Reply-To: hm@seneca.ix.de

Rob Janssen (rob@pe1chl.ampr.org) wrote:

: > I thought the supply of terminator power was supposed to be done via
: > a (shottky) diode, so that no reverse current flows into the device.

You're correct. I was too fast |-/

Ciao,
hm

-- 
Harald Milz                             office: hm@ix.de
iX Multiuser Multitasking Magazine      home:   hm@seneca.ix.de
Opinions are mine, not my employer's -- the answer is Forty-two


------------------------------

From: linux@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Systemkennung Linux)
Subject: Re: 32-bit Novell desktop OS combines Unix, DOS 7
Date: 20 May 1994 09:59:38 GMT

In article <Cq2CvG.GHn@hunan.rastek.com>, jmorris@darkstar.rastek.com (Jim Morris) writes:
|>If this "Corsair" products is real, and is based upon the Linux kernel at all,
|> we all know that Linus himself says that it would be virtually impossible,
|> or at least very difficult, to port the Linux kernel to another processor.

That is definitely wrong, because the kernel is currently beeing ported
to 680x0 machines (ATARI,AMIGA) and running there and also there are people
doing ports to the DEC ALPHA and PowerPC.

So it is not impossible. It happened already...

Mike


-- 
Michael_Neuffer@wi2.maus.de (NO mails >16 KB please)
linux@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (send large mails to this address)


------------------------------

From: dmarples@voyager.comms.eee.strath.ac.uk (David Marples)
Subject: Re: In defence of variety, but with consistancy
Date: 20 May 94 09:58:44

In article <612.2DDBF84C@purplet.demon.co.uk> jaggy@purplet.demon.co.uk (Mike Jagdis) writes:

Hey, this is a good thing (tm).

   * In a message originally to All, David Marples said:

   DM> Yep, seems entirely reasonable.  Putting stuff in standard directories
   DM> as specified by a (more detailed) FSSTND and also making a note of
   DM> where you've put stuff (in a standard format) in another standard
   DM> place so that you can take it back out.....  Thumbs in for that.

   Did this for the Purple Distribution back when SLS was a baby and boot 'n 
   root disks were the order of the day.

     Packages live in their own directory hierarchies and have a map file that 
   describes how they fit in to a system (along with version numbers for 
   conflict resolution).

     A (reasonably) simply tool keeps track of what packages are installed and 
   builds the target structure using the package maps. Multiple targets are 
   possible so /usr/X386 could be built separately for example (and possibly 
   mounted from elsewhere).

     It's easy to uninstall packages.

     It's easy to slide in upgrades.

     It's easy to give a package to someone else - just tar it off your running 
   system (one of the main reasons I did it this way as it happens).

That's the very fellow.  How many times have I just wanted to upgrade
one package/port it onto a new machine/just get rid of it 'cos I'm out
of room?

     It never made it to an Internet site though. Every so often this thread 
   crops up and people say this is the sort of thing they might like. But every 
   time I say it exists the result is total apathy. It *may* make it to the all 
   new ftp.linux.org - but I'm on a modem here and it isn't likely to happen 
   unless there are others willing to use the format for their releases (i.e. 
   include a map file and some reasonably smart setup scripts).

   DM> That way I can take what packages I want from wherever I
   DM> want and hook them together to make the <Dave> installation

   Exactly. It shouldn't be a case of having a particular distribution. Just a 
   case of having a collection of packages that you can put together and pull 
   apart like lego(tm).

OK - What do we do to make it happen?  Seems to me that your
distribution *has* to end up on the net if it's going to go anywhere.

Does anyone have any objections to this kind of standardisation - if
so, why?  Surely, it's in everyone interests to have systems which are
consistant and upgradable.  Apart from anything else, I *want* to pick
and choose what ends up on my box...

DAVE
D.J.Marples@strath.ac.uk

------------------------------


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