From:     Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>
To:       Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu
Date:     Sat, 7 May 94 19:13:10 EDT
Subject:  Linux-Misc Digest #78

Linux-Misc Digest #78, Volume #2                  Sat, 7 May 94 19:13:10 EDT

Contents:
  Re: JANA'S NEW TRCIKS! (Ian Soboroff)
  Re: idiot's guide to unix/linux (Steven Greenland)
  Re: idiot's guide to unix/linux   (Juha Laiho)
  Re: Cdroms.. what NOW?  (no Cd-rom a month.. no LGX, etc) (Ove Hansen)
  XARCHIE for linux (Jan-Torsten Milde)
  Who is Linux targetting? (boris leonid sheikman)
  Re: idiot's guide to unix/linux (Byron A Jeff)
  Re: Jana CD- What a joke!! (Tri Tran)
  Thinking of Linux Q's? (Jonathan Gift)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ian@umbc.edu (Ian Soboroff)
Subject: Re: JANA'S NEW TRCIKS!
Date: 5 May 1994 13:01:45 -0400

In article <1994May5.101244.19397@gold.muc.de>,
Christian Seyb <cs@gold.muc.de> wrote:

>Whining about Jana in public doesn't solve anyones issues with Linux ...

and, to be honest, it's getting downright annoying.

hey, all you complainers, b*tchers-and-moaners, gripers, etc, you've
missed a key element to a successful complaint here.  you haven't paid
a red cent for what you haven't received.

now, if you'd actually sent off a check (and, yes, all you old-timers
who will no doubt counterflame, i am just referring to this current
offer), well, then you'd be in a position to be downright annoyed.
but lets face it, you're waiting on something that you haven't put
anything into except piss-and-moan.

if you want jana to work well at all, your pisspoor attitude ain't
gonna cut it.  if you really have that much interest in if they
deliver or not, offer to help.

and, if you _don't_ care, or if you're fed up and no longer want to
hear about jana or jay, shut up, because we're tired of reading about
it.

me, i told jay to put me on the list.  if i get 2 CD's, i'll send jay
the check.  i'm not going to bank my future on getting those cd's by
last thursday or whatever... i haven't paid, so, quite honestly, i
don't have any position from which to complain.  if/when they arrive,
i'll be pleasantly surprised.

                ian


-- 
+---------------+------------------------------------------------------+
! Ian Soboroff  ! "When you have learned to snatch the error code from !
! ian@umbc.edu  !  the trap frame, it will be time for you to leave."  !
+---------------+------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

From: stevegr@sugar.NeoSoft.COM (Steven Greenland)
Subject: Re: idiot's guide to unix/linux
Date: 7 May 1994 14:15:10 -0500

In article <2qfgrt$t88@klaava.helsinki.fi>,
Lars Wirzenius <wirzeniu@cc.Helsinki.FI> wrote:
>steve@rigel.demon.co.uk writes:
>> Mitsumi CDROM drive, for instance... The kernel said the drive was there, 
>> but how the f*** do you mount it? The howto doesn't say. I couldn't find 
>> anything that said.
>
>The available filesystem types in my kernel (1.0; I haven't booted for
>45 days) are (this comes straight from the kernel sources, since I didn't
>find a list):
>
>        minix
>        ext
>        ext2
>        xiafs
>        msdos
>        proc
>        nfs
>        iso9660
>        xenix
>        sysv
>        coherent
>        hpfs

And the man page for mount(8) lists many (but not all) of these.
It also specifically says to look in linux/fs/filesystems.c to see the
actual list of supported file systems. Is this the best way

to document available filesystems? No. Is the information there? Yes.
>> I agree that people should RTFM, but there seems to be no index which says
>> which FM to R, [...]
>
>This would be a good thing to have.  Even better, there should be perhaps

Agreed. Doesn't the META-FAQ list the HOWTO's and describe what each
covers? 
>some fewer documents, so that one would not have to look in as many places.
>
>> If anyone asked me what operating system they shoud 
>> use for their department,
>> I would say that although linux seems pretty comprehensive and stable, they 
>> should use anything else, but NOT linux. The documentation is simply not
>> sufficient for anyone other than a keen hobbyist or the very desparate.
>
>I don't really disagree, although I find the docs better than you do.
>But then, I'm more experienced.

Linux is Unix. Unix is complicated, and definitely requires more 
experience/time to manage than MS-DOS. It also requires more experience/time
to use _well_ than MS-DOS, simply because it is a lot more _capable_
than MS-DOS.

BUT, there are many good intro_to_unix books out there, all quite
applicable to Linux. I don't think it's unreasonable for the Linux
developers/maintainers to expect people to go and read those books,
and devout their limited time to documenting tasks specific to
Linux. 

Do some OS's come with more complete documentation? Yeah, but they
charge a _lot_ for it. Why should people contributing their free
time duplicate documents that are already out there?

The main problem with Linux is that many of the users are using it
as a single-user system, and therefore must learn how to manage
it as well as use it. I can't think of any serious operating system
that is any simpler to maintain than Unix/Linux, except possibly
MacOS (depends on whether or not you consider MacOS a "serious OS",
and I'm not interested in debating that). VMS? No way (That is, it
_is_ a real OS, but it is not any easier to manage). (BTDT!).

I've seen Unix systems that provide better _tools_ for managing,
such as AIX's SMIT, but all the tools do is help keep you from
screwing up, you still have to read/learn/experience to determine
_what_ to do with the tools.

Basically, you may not remember it, but you had to spend some
effort/time learning MS-DOS once. Unix is an order of magnitude
more complex. It's also (at least) an order of magnitude more useful,
once you learn it. Expect to put some time into learning it. In
the mean time, go out and buy some _unix_for_DOS_users_ book,
and read/experiment/learn.

(And go look in the LDP directory on sunsite. There's some good
stuff there, and it's getting better. Thanks, people.)
-- 
Steve Greenland | stevegr@sugar.neosoft.com | '91 SHO Mocha/Mocha  
Where to bad folks go when they die? 
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly. 
They go to the lake of fire and fry. 
Won't see them again to the 4th of July!
                        - The Meat Puppets

------------------------------

From: jlaiho@ichaos.nullnet.fi (Juha Laiho)
Subject: Re: idiot's guide to unix/linux  
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 04:18:30 GMT

mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh) said:
>In article <Cp6sCz.1n0@ichaos.nullnet.fi> jlaiho@ichaos.nullnet.fi (Juha Laiho) writes:
>>>(b) if you think they are not there, look again and you will find
>>>them. 
>>grep -i 'someword' *
>>MAY help, if you can think of a good keyword in a directory full of FAQs.
>
>I don't see what's so hard about _reading_ the documentation. This is a
>UNIX system, for crying out loud, and I don't think it's unreasonable
>to expect new users to read around 100 pages or so in order to get off
>of the ground.

We agree, Matt. But: as you know, for many people, it is much harder to
actually _read_ _through_ a document, or a FAQ, than to f.ex. post to
col.help. That's why I made the suggestion about grepping the FAQs. It's
much faster than reading through; comparable with posting to the Net.

>Excuse me for sounding a bit testy, but everyone seems to be struggling
>over new ways to search the documentation for the answers that you're
>looking for. I've got a great way of doing it---use your built-in biological
>grep. It's called "reading".

Yes, I (usually) have enough patience for doing that, but I know a lot of
people who don't. For them, grepping (or asking from the Net) are the
only ways to go. And even they are able to learn..;)
-- 
Wolf  a.k.a.  Juha Laiho     Helsinki, Finland
(Geek Code 1.0.1) GCS d? p c++ l++ u(-) e+ m+ s+/- n- h(*) f(?) !g w+ t- r y+
"...cancel my subscription to the resurrection!" (Jim Morrison)

------------------------------

From: ove@groovy.neu.sgi.com (Ove Hansen)
Subject: Re: Cdroms.. what NOW?  (no Cd-rom a month.. no LGX, etc)
Date: 8 May 1994 20:22:10 GMT

In article <CpCr4y.LFr@austin.ibm.com>, rajat@austin.ibm.com (Rajat Datta)
writes:
|> In article <2qblnh$5gb@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
|> Byron Thomas Faber <bf11620@ehsn9.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
|> >
|> >Ok.. I've heard alot of complaints about Jana.  Also, LGX stinks.
|> >
|> >Is there ANYBODY left who delivers on time?  I mean is there any decent
|> >current CDrom I can order that is MADE right now.
|> > [...]
|> TransAmeritech seems to have a pretty good reputation among the people
|> on the net.  
|> [...]

I've bought from TransAmeritech twice - the CDs have arrived within a week
both times - and I live in Switzerland! I won't have any worries at all about
ordering a third time!

-- 
Ove Hansen - e-mail: ove@neu.sgi.com

------------------------------

From: milde@liligraf (Jan-Torsten Milde)
Subject: XARCHIE for linux
Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 15:22:19 GMT


Hi net,

i am looking for a xarchie binary for linux.
Doeas anybody know an ftp site i can get it from ?


Thanx

Jan-Torsten

------------------------------

From: poulet@shell.portal.com (boris leonid sheikman)
Subject: Who is Linux targetting?
Date: 7 May 1994 21:07:56 GMT

Hi,

   I've installed Linux and have been using for about a month or two, and I 
really enjoy using it as opposed to DOS. Call me a Linux novice, but I notice
that the Linux and whole UNIX market is aiming somewhere above the user who
just wants to dump DOS and Windows. I can't find a simple application like a 
graphical word processor similar to MS-WORD or MS-WRITE (ok, simple may have
been the wrong word). I can't even find some X sound editing tools similar
to COOL for Windows.

   But I have no problem finding Net programs, compilers, net drivers, etc.
I would like to use those 20 megs of fonts that came with my Linux/X
distributions. Am I just missing something?

 
--
==============================================================================
Boris Sheikman (#0002)           |      !The Kylie Minogue Mailing List!
Poulet@Shell.Portal.Com          |                  !Join It!
==============================================================================

------------------------------

From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: idiot's guide to unix/linux
Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 17:12:06 GMT

People! I have a very interesting E-mail at the bottom of this post. If 
you read nothing else of this post, read it.

In article <1994May5.060153.23232@cs.cornell.edu>,
Matt Welsh <mdw@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
> [ Matt and I agree that a sysadmin tool would be helpful. ]
>>Perhaps we should think about
>>documenting the same info at different levels and have a rating systems
>>for documents (Beginner,Intermediate,Advanced,Expert,Guru) so that folks
>>can pick out an appropriate level for their skills. 
>
>I've got it: Each HOWTO and other doc could be rated on a scale,
>from one virtual beer for novices, to a six-pack of virtual beers for 
>gurus. 
>
>Actually, I don't like that idea. It's easier to spell out at the top
>of the document what audience it is for and what it assumes.
>This is also more flexible.

That's correct. What I'm saying is that we need to think about covering 
the material on different levels. A rating system really isn't necessary.
However pointing out the documents for the same material at the different
levels in a particular doc might be useful.

>
>>True enough. Now back to my issue: how to make usable users out of novices?
>>Is there any docs/books that might make my task easier? And sometimes 
>>standard unix stuff is not enough. For example: joe. To subject any new user
>>the vi is like sticking bamboo slivers under fingernails: torture. 
>
>Oh, vi is fun. You just have to learn to appreciate self-mutilation. 
>It's something like getting a tattoo---it's painful at first, but the
>experience stays with you for life. 

I know this is tounge (sp) in cheek. vi is the mose horrible excuse for
an editor ever written. The fact that it's the only thing I use notwithstanding
;-)

>
>>So I find
>>that joe is relatively easy to learn and use, until you meet the user that
>>asks what the ctrl key is for. 
>
>Those are people who are in a complete vacuum, for whom there's no hope.
>It is NOT reasonable to expect anyone with that level of inexperience to
>run Linux. That's where I draw the line. They can certainly learn those
>things, but should do so on a tame system such as MS-DOS.
>
>>The only question: is there docs for neophytes to start with?
>
>Books, books, books. The I&GS includes a UNIX tutorial for beginners.
>Of course this assumes knowledge of MS-DOS or _some_ operating system.
>I don't think that new computer users should be using Linux. That's
>my personal philosophy: That before running Linux, a computer user
>should go through at least two years of the same torture that I did,
>before moving to Linux: MS-DOS.
>


Matt this is where we disagree (sort of). I'm not talking about running Linux
I'm talking about using it to get work done. We all know that an editor is
an editor is an editor. My take on this is not to expose new users to an OS
that they won't use for the long haul. Human nature is to stick with what
you know and what you learn first. If I expose my parents to DOS/WINDOWS
once they learn how to use it, they won't feel a need to switch. That's
why Linux is on their machine. It's the same tasks regardless of the OS.
Linux just gives them many orders of magnitude more tools to use eventually.
And I won't have to bother explaining why Linux is so much better than
DOS/Windows during the transistion process. I mean why ruin a blank canvas
(which you'll have to admit we Linux advocates don't get very often) with
crayon when we can paint fine art on it even if it takes a bit more time
initally?

And remember my parents won't have to run the machine, that's my job. It's
one of the primary reasons I put in a second phone line and a 14.4 modem
in the machine, so I can call and handhold while actually being logged
in at the same time.

What I'm pointing out is that most of the documentation is for DOS refugees
and current Unix users. What I've failed to see (and I admit I've only given
a cursory look) is documentation for rank novices. I plan to take a look
at my favorite computer bookstore for something but I'd gladly accept
suggestions.

Actually while I've been sitting here writing this message I've thought of
a throwback to the old SLS days: menus. With the really cool dialog command
it would be a piece of cake to throw together a simple menu to do the
simple tasks that rank novices need: editing, printing, communications, etc.
I guess I'm a bit biased because one of my Human Factors Professors was 
doing usability research in progressive systems and found that menus and
help do a great deal for novice users but generally hinder experts.

I'll try this dialog based thing as an experiment with my parents and let you
know how it comes out.

Also I've found from experience (Freshman computer science students) that
novices are much more paper dependant than experts. Experts will use
on-line searchable documents. But novices tend to gravitate to paper.
Again it's a fallback to folks using what they are comfortable with.
That's why I'm interested in Unix documentation for the novice class.

I figure in the next year I'll introduce 20-30 folks to Linux. Most will
not be experts. Most however will have some computer usage experience.
My first book for them is always Matt's guide. However I don't have anything 
yet that'll fill the need of the rank novice. And remember we're not talking 
about sysadmin tasks, just regular old usage. Something with an explanation of 
the file organization, logging in and out, using an editor, printing, etc.
Written from the novice perspective (i.e. assume nothing).
I remember that one of the Waite books did a pretty good job of this. I'll
check it out at the bookstore this evening.

BTW does joe have a users guide?

BAJ

Lastly I want to share a file that I received in my E-mail this morning
that'll give you an idea of the type of user we may have to deal with in
the next couple of years as Linux enthusiasts. Just something for you
to think about.
==========================Begin Included Text =========================

I thought you guys would enjoy this look at the state of the PC users in
1994.

=>>From the Wall Street Journal, Tuesday, March 1, 1994.
=>Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 14:58:28 -0500
=>
=>BEFUDDLED PC USERS FLOOD HELP LINES, AND NO QUESTION SEEMS TO BE TOO BASIC
=>
=>AUSTIN, Texas -  The exasperated help-line caller said she couldn't get
=>her new Dell computer to turn on.  Jay Ablinger, a Dell Computer Corp.
=>technician, made sure the computer was plugged in and then asked the
=>woman what happened when she pushed the power button.
=>
=>"I've pushed and pushed on this foot pedal and nothing happens," the
=>woman replied.  "Foot pedal?" the technician asked.  "Yes," the woman
=>said, "this little white foot pedal with the on switch."  The "foot
=>pedal," it turned out, was the computer's mouse, a hand-operated device
=>that helps to control the computer's operations.
=>
=>Personal-computer makers are discovering that it's still a low-tech
=>world out there.  While they are finally having great success selling
=>PCs to households, they now have to deal with people to whom monitors
=>and disk drives are a foreign as another language.
=>
=>"It is rather mystifying to get this nice, beautiful machine and not
=>know anything about it," says Ed Shuler, a technician who helps field
=>consumer calls at Dell's headquarters here.  "It's going into unfamiliar
=>territory," adds Gus Kolias, vice president of customer service and
=>training for Compaq Computer Corp.  "People are looking for a comfort
=>level."
=>
=>Only two years ago, most calls to PC help lines came from techies
=>needing help on complex problems.  But now, with computer sales to homes
=>exploding as new "multimedia" functions gain mass appeal, PC makers say
=>that as many as 70% of their calls come from rank novices.  Partly
=>because of the volume of calls, some computer companies have started
=>charging help-line users.
=>
=>The questions are often so basic that they could have been answered by
=>opening the manual that comes with every machine.  One woman called Dell's
=>toll-free line to ask how to install batteries in her laptop.  When
=>told that the directions were on the first page of the manual, says Steve
=>Smith, Dell director of technical support, the woman replied angrily,
=>"I just paid $2,000 for this damn thing, and I'm not going to read a book."
=>
=>Indeed, it seems that these buyers rarely refer to a manual when a phone
=>is at hand.  "If there is a book and a phone and they're side by side,
=>the phone wins time after time," says Craig McQuilkin, manager of
=>service marketing for AST Research, Inc. in Irvine, Calif.  "It's a
=>phenomenon of people wanting to talk to people."
=>
=>And do they ever.  Compaq's help center in Houston, Texas, is inundated
=>by some 8,000 consumer calls a day, with inquiries like this one related
=>by technician John Wolf: "A frustrated customer called, who said her
=>brand new Contura would not work.  She said she had unpacked the unit,
=>plugged it in, opened it up and sat there for 20 minutes waiting for
=>something to happen.  When asked what happened when she pressed the
=>power switch, she asked, 'What power switch?'"
=>
=>Seemingly simple computer features baffle some users.  So many people have
=>called to ask where the "any" key is when "Press Any Key" flashes on the
=>screen that Compaq is considering changing the command to "Press Return
=>Key."
=>
=>Some people can't figure out the mouse.  Tamra Eagle, an AST technical
=>support supervisor, says one customer complained that her mouse was hard
=>to control with the "dust cover" on.  The cover turned out to be the
=>plastic bag the mouse was packaged in.  Dell technician Wayne Zieschang
=>says one of his customers held the mouse and pointed it at the screen,
=>all the while clicking madly.  The customer got no response because the
=>mouse works only if it's moved over a flat surface.
=>
=>Disk drives are another bugaboo.  Compaq technician Brent Sullivan says
=>a customer was having trouble reading word-processing files from his
=>old diskettes.  After troubleshooting for magnets and heat failed to
=>diagnose the problem, Mr. Sullivan asked what else was being done with
=>the diskette.  The customer's response: "I put a label on the diskette,
=>roll it into the typewriter..."
=>
=>At AST, another customer dutifully complied with a technician's request
=>that she send in a copy of a defective floppy disk.  A letter from the
=>customer arrived a few days later, along with a Xerox copy of the floppy.
=>And at Dell, a technician advised his customer to put his troubled floppy
=>back in the drive and "close the door." Asking the technician to "hold on,"
=>the customer put the phone down and was heard walking over to shut the
=>door to his room.  The technician meant the door to his floppy drive.
=>
=>The software inside the computer can be equally befuddling.  A Dell
=>customer called to say he couldn't get his computer to fax anything.
=>After 40 minutes of troubleshooting, the technician discovered the man
=>was trying to fax a piece of paper by holding it in front of the monitor
=>screen and hitting the "send" key.
=>
=>Another Dell customer needed help setting up a new program, so Dell
=>technician Gary Rock referred him to the local Egghead.  "Yeah, I got me
=>a couple of friends," the customer replied.  When told Egghead was a
=>software store, the man said, "Oh! I thought you meant for me to find a
=>couple of geeks."
=>
=>No realizing how fragile computers can be, some people end up damaging
=>parts beyond repair.  A Dell customer called to complain that his
=>keyboard no longer worked.  He had cleaned it, he said, filling up his
=>tub with soap and water and soaking his keyboard for a day, and then
=>removing all the keys and washing them individually.
=>
=>Computers make some people paranoid.  A Dell technician, Morgan Vergara,
=>says he once calmed a man who became enraged because "his computer had
=>told him he was bad and an invalid."  Mr. Vergara patiently explained
=>that the computer's "bad command" and "invalid" responses shouldn't be
=>taken personally.
=>
=>These days PC-help technicians increasingly find themselves taking on
=>the role of amateur psychologists.  Mr. Shuler, the Dell technician, who
=>once worked as a psychiatric nurse, says he defused a potential domestic
=>fight by soothingly talking a man through a computer problem after the
=>man had screamed threats at his wife and children in the background.
=>
=>There are also the lonely hearts who seek out human contact, even if it
=>happens to be a computer techie.  One man from New Hampshire calls Dell
=>every time he experiences a life crisis.  He gets a technician to walk
=>him through some contrived problem with his computer, apparently feeling
=>uplifted by the process.
=>
=>"A lot of people want reassurance," says Mr. Shuler.
=>
=>----END OF MESSAGE---
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------

From: tran@f18sun5.nwc.navy.mil (Tri Tran)
Subject: Re: Jana CD- What a joke!!
Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 00:11:12 GMT

In article <CpApE4.A2C@cs690-3.erie.ge.com>,
Andrew R. Tefft <teffta@cs690-3.erie.ge.com> wrote:
>In article 7tF@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil, tran@f18sun5.nwc.navy.mil (Tri Tran) writes:
>>It is apparent that Jana is back to his old track record
>>again.  I don't know where the hell this guy is but he
>>seem to have disappeared from the face of the Earth.  Trying to
>
>Heh, expect email within a day!
>
>What an odd company, they pay so little attention to actual customer
>service but so much attention to making excuses when people complain 
>publically.
>
>P.S. Jay -- I sent for information last *year*, not recently,
>and I don't want it anymore!
>
>---
>
>Andy Tefft               - new, expanded .sig -     teffta@cs690-3.erie.ge.com
>
>
Got his email today.  We'll see whether he can live up to his promise
this time.  I guess he's trying to see whether there's still interest
in his company and his offerings; after all the flames that is.  As for me,
I've already gave up and order from another distributor.  $10.00
saving is not worth hoping that Jay can live up to his promise again.

Tri

------------------------------

From: jgift@netcom.com (Jonathan Gift)
Subject: Thinking of Linux Q's?
Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 21:22:39 GMT

I'm considering dropping Linux on an empty partition and was wondering:

1. Best FTP source (or CD ROM)?
2. Does X-Windows come with it?
3. Does it work with an UltrAstor 34F Local bus SCSI and Orchid 
Fahrenheit VLB card?
4. Are HP IIP printer's supported?
Thanks. Email or post here. I'll check in throughout the day.

-- 
            jgift@netcom.com

"Hey, I think I've finally got the hang of i-"

------------------------------


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