Subject: Linux-Development Digest #302
From: Digestifier <Linux-Development-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Thu, 9 Dec 93 18:13:10 EST

Linux-Development Digest #302, Volume #1          Thu, 9 Dec 93 18:13:10 EST

Contents:
  Using cluster0.5 +pl14 DOUBLES I/O - Performance (RAINER SCHIELE INFORMATIK)
  Re: ISODE for Linux (Eugene E. Devereaux)
  Re: SQL for University Ingres (Roy Hann)
  Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame) (Lloyd Miller)
  Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas! (Kai Harrekilde-Petersen)
  Re: Using cluster0.5 +pl14 DOUBLES I/O - Performance (Eric Youngdale)
  Re: lib with fn _MAX? (J Rozes)
  Re: Neuronal networks (Guido Thater)
  Re: (none) (Mike Horwath)
  Re: THE ULTIMATE FAQ ANSWER (Paolo Zeppegno)
  Re: Xconfig (Paolo Zeppegno)
  Re: ext2fs and 0.99pl14 (Peter Mutsaers)
  Re: Appletalk and LINUX Update (Alan Cox)
  What is JAM? (Re: What tools would you use on Linux for business applications?) (Guru Aleph_Null)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 81264@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de (RAINER SCHIELE INFORMATIK)
Subject: Using cluster0.5 +pl14 DOUBLES I/O - Performance
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 12:12:57 GMT

Hello out there

I have installed the new cluster packages on my machine and my I/O - 
Performance going up to 1,2MB (600kb without). I'm using a DEC DSP3160 and a 
Adaptec 1542B. My Testtools are Bonnie and Iozone.

Thanks Eric. Great Work.

But why is'nt the cluster package in the Kernel!

Rainer

------------------------------

From: gened@halcyon.com (Eugene E. Devereaux)
Subject: Re: ISODE for Linux
Date: 9 Dec 1993 05:28:58 -0800

I have not tried to convert ISODE but I did manage to get snacc up.
Depending on what part of ISODE you are looking for, this may help. It a
a complete ASN.1 compiler that generates C and C++ encode/decode
routines. The package has worked great for me and only required minor
changes to run under linux. Use archie snacc to get the UBC address.

Good Luck


-- 
  Eugene E. Devereaux            Call:     K7JZU  -o- --ooo o--- --oo oo- 
  4 Ponce DeLeon Creek S.W.      Internet: gened@halcyon.com
  Tacoma, Wa 98499               Voice:    (206) 584-1856    
  - Easy does it, but do it -    FAX:      (206) 584-1178

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.databases,comp.os.linux.misc
From: rhh@tachy.uah.ualberta.ca (Roy Hann)
Subject: Re: SQL for University Ingres
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 15:02:08 GMT

camou@csid.gmeds.com (Mario Camou) writes:
: rhh@tachy.uah.ualberta.ca (Roy Hann) writes:
: : In article <8h0UNYC00VR54Gw3Qe@andrew.cmu.edu> you write:
: : On the other hand, if you are just saying SQL is "standard" and widely 
: : available and as a matter of policy you use it for those reasons, well:
: : ho-hum; you and me both.  But that does not contradict Zeyd.  QUEL is 
: : the better language--it's not popular, but it IS better--
: 
: I know SQL, don't know QUEL. I'm currently thinking of installing
: University Ingres on a Linux machine. Could you post what you consider
: to be the main differences between SQL and QUEL?

I can't tackle this properly here--I am sure that a proper treatment
of the question would require a good size book, and in spite of having
used QUEL for 6 years before switching to SQL for the last 4 years
I am sure I am not fully aware of all the differences anyway.  But
here is an exract from the INGRES FAQ that talks about some of the 
differences you will see in application programs.  Unfortunately
most the the REALLY BIG differences are in the data reduction 
capabilities (which SQL more or less lacks completely) and those are
only hinted at here.


10.001 What is QUEL?

QUEL is the original INGRES DML, now supplanted by SQL for commercial
reasons.  There is a small number of very well regarded authorities,
including C. J. Date, who believe that QUEL is superior to SQL.

QUEL is available as part of the INGRES base system.  The interfaces
are `quel' (a terminal monitor equivalent and similar to `sql') and
`iquel' (similar to `isql').  Report Writer is able to determine
automatically whether SQL or QUEL is used in the .QUERY section.
The embedded pre-processor is `eqc' for C.

QUEL is based on the relational calculus; SQL is based on the 
relational algebra.  There are many operations that are straight forward
in QUEL that are not readily reproduced in SQL.  

Although it is de-emphasized, QUEL _IS_ supported and The ASK Group does
not appear to be ready to drop it yet.



10.002 How different is QUEL from SQL?

VERY different, although in embedded applications, where the two DMLs
are used only for the basic operations of fetching, updating and
inserting, the differences are not very apparent.  A few of the 
important differences in embedded applications are:

(1) In EQUEL the INGRES identifiers are flagged (viz #part_no = 
    part_no), while ESQL the host-language identifiers are 
    flagged (viz part_no = :part_no).

(3) QUEL allows range variables (analogous to SQL correlated table
    names) to remain defined between statements.  A range variable
    declaration need not appear in the source code anywhere near
    the reference to the range variable.

(4) The EQUEL `APPEND' statement (analogous to SQL `INSERT') insists
    that column be identified by name--columns cannot be addressed by 
    position.

(5) EQUEL allows the WHERE clause to be defined dynamically, without
    recourse to a "dynamic" EQUEL. 

As well, some of the other difference that apply to both the embedded
and non-embedded version of QUEL, but which are perhaps of great
importance when converting an application to SQL are:

(1) Some of the more exotic QUEL access controls are not imposed on
    SQL accessors--this creates a potential security breach.

(2) Outwardly identical SQL and QUEL views can produce different
    results because of semantic differences.  (QUEL implements
    views so that they act like modifications to the WHERE clause, SQL 
    implements them so that they act like virtual tables--with 
    duplicates permitted.)

(3) QUEL auto-commits by default; multi-statement transactions
    must be explicitly encapsulated between a BEGIN TRANSACTION
    and an END TRANSACTION or an ABORT.

In non-embedded uses, such as `iquel' and Report Writer, the differences
can be very great.  A future version of this FAQ may deal with this more
thoroughly.



10.003 Should I learn QUEL?

Users of ASK/INGRES have the choice, but QUEL is the only DML available
to users of University Ingres.

If the need arises, QUEL is certainly easy to learn.  It is more
regular and orthogonal than SQL.  However, mastery of the more subtle
features of QUEL (such as aggregate functions) requires considerable
sophistication.

QUEL may be useful within Report Writer where its capabilities can
allow certain reports to be defined very concisely, particularly those
that require aggregation over many different columns and particularly
those that require aggregation over a function of a column.  There are
many operations that can be expressed concisely and non-procedurally
that have no equivalent concise or non-procedural expression in SQL.

Unfortunately, in spite of its manifest superiority to SQL, QUEL is
unique to Ingres now.  Proficiency in QUEL may be satisfying
personally, but it will not be transferable to other systems.  QUEL is
not under active development any longer, therefore it is not able to
access the user defined datatypes that can be created using the Object
Management Extension.  Any reports or applications developed using QUEL
may be hard to maintain in future.

Employers would probably counsel against learning QUEL, academics would
probably argue the opposite.



10.004 Should I convert my QUEL to SQL?

The answer to this question will depend on circumstances.  The best
answer that can be offered is a list of the pros and cons of 
conversion.

The implicit reason for wanting to do this will usually be
a desire to be able to hire SQL programmers off the street, or
to take advantage of recent INGRES enhancements that are available
only in SQL.  The advantage of being able to hire SQL programmers
off the street is probably illusory.  SQL as such constitutes less
than 3% of the source code (by one estimate), so familiarity with
INGRES' forms run-time system and INGRES utilities will always be
the main obstacle to recruiting experienced programmers.  

Wanting to take advantage of new INGRES facilities is a compelling
reason to convert to SQL.

In embedded applications, the conversion of QUEL to SQL is fairly
mechanical, and can probably be undertaken at minimal cost.  If
necessary it is possible to do the conversion piecemeal, mixing SQL and
QUEL in the same application.  See Advisor note US_13270 for details.

There are NO utilities available to automate the conversion of 
embedded QUEL to SQL.

In the case of Report Writer, the conversion will in general be much
more difficult.  It is possible to do some very sophisticated data
reduction in QUEL, and if a report makes use of some of the more
powerful capabilities of QUEL, conversion to SQL may well be so painful
that it should be avoided if at all possible.  If it cannot be avoided,
plan to spend a long time on the conversion and on testing.  It is not
unknown for a relatively modest report of under a 100 lines of code
using QUEL to balloon to over 2000 lines of code when switching to
SQL.



10.005 Are there any utilities for converting QUEL to SQL?

No.


========================================================================

Roy Hann
Senior Analyst, Information Systems        rhh@tachy.uah.ualberta.ca
University of Alberta Hospitals            (MIME-capable mail agent)
WMC 2C2.21, 8440-112th Street,     
Edmonton, Alberta                          Tel: (403)492-4367
T6G 0N4                                    FAX: (403)492-3090
Canada

========================================================================

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
From: lloyd@lfmcal.cuc.ab.ca (Lloyd Miller)
Subject: Re: Creeping featuritis (post --rant --flame)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 06:17:00 GMT

Elizabeth Haley (haley@scws14.harvard.edu) wrote:

> My goal in memory size has always been to be able to have the entire
> Manhattan phonebook in memory, as well as the OS and my favorite
> programs... We're almost there...

There are some ads now running for a certain ROM chip that make
exactly this claim, it can hold a copy of the Manhattan phonebook. I
suspect it is just white pages tho. I guess that is what those extra
ROM socets are for on those motherboards. <g>
-- 
 Lloyd Miller, Calgary                  Don't flame on my tirade.
 lloyd@lfmcal.cuc.ab.ca
 Lloyd_Miller@f57.n17.z1.fidonet.org

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d
From: kaihp@id.dth.dk (Kai Harrekilde-Petersen)
Subject: Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas!
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 12:17:24 GMT


/* No #define FLAMING is needed,
 * 'cause it's inherited from the subject thread
 */

STOP THIS FLAMING!!!!

YOU ARE USING ABOUT 25 PERCENT OF THE BANDWIDTH

If you want to continue flaming each other, do it on the alt channels

THIS CHANNEL IS MEANT FOR ***** D E V E L O P M E N T ******

#undef FLAMING

Kai


------------------------------

From: eric@tantalus.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Youngdale)
Subject: Re: Using cluster0.5 +pl14 DOUBLES I/O - Performance
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 16:01:29 GMT

In article <81264.37.755439177@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de> 81264@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de (RAINER SCHIELE INFORMATIK) writes:
>Hello out there
>
>I have installed the new cluster packages on my machine and my I/O - 
>Performance going up to 1,2MB (600kb without). I'm using a DEC DSP3160 and a 
>Adaptec 1542B. My Testtools are Bonnie and Iozone.
>
>Thanks Eric. Great Work.

        Your welcome :-).

>But why is'nt the cluster package in the Kernel!

        Because I am still fooling with it.  Every so often, someone reports
some kind of weird problem of one kind or another.  Also, for very fast
disk/controller combinations, the performance is still not what I would like it
to be, and I am experimenting with further ideas.

-Eric


-- 
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep.  But I have promises to keep,
And lines to code before I sleep, And lines to code before I sleep."

------------------------------

From: jrozes@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (J Rozes)
Subject: Re: lib with fn _MAX?
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 16:10:14 GMT

In compiling the rmail package included with sendmail 8.6.4, ld spit out
an error about function _MAX (and a few other functions) being defined
but unreferenced. Adding -lbsd took care of the few others, but I can't
find the library that has this function. Can anyone enlighten me?

thanks,
jonathan

------------------------------

From: gt@sky.GUN.de (Guido Thater)
Subject: Re: Neuronal networks
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 10:32:00 GMT

Christian Pablo Tagtachian (floyd@arthax.satlink.net) wrote:
: Hello, I am looking for a development package for neuronal networks,
: does anyone know about the existence of such thing for Linux?
: I also got SmallTalk with its interface for X, but it doesn't allow you to
: develop X11 applications, is there any add-on for it to support such
: thing?
: Thank you very much.
: Christian

: <floyd@arthax.satlink.net> Buenos Aires, Argentina.
:  

: Subject: Neuronal networks
: Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development
: Organization: Arthax, a ride into the unix world
: Summary: 
: Keywords: 
: X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

: Hello, I am looking for a development package for neuronal networks,
: does anyone know about the existence of such thing for Linux?
: I also got SmallTalk with its interface for X, but it doesn't allow you to
: develope X11 applications, is there any add-on for it to support such
: thing?
: Thank you very much.
: Christian

: <floyd@arthax.satlink.net> Buenos Aires, Argentina.
:  

Hello,

I know of a software called SNNS, developed by the University of Stuttgart,
Germany. It can be found on one of their FTP-Servers, but I don't know 
exactly where (I think it was ftp.rus.uni-stuttgart.de).

SNNS runs under X-Windows and can be compiled easily on Linux-Machines.

Bye

Guido

-- 

______________________________________________________________________________

"How long a minute is depends on which side

------------------------------

From: root@jacobs.mn.org (Mike Horwath)
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 9 Dec 1993 14:17:18 GMT

I have tried the patches, but there have been problems.

I had a couple of overrun messages on the screen (my problem on this side
and not the new patches).

After some time, I can't use /dev/cua1 to dial out on anymore.  This used
to work before and the reason I tried the patches is because I was having
problems with incoming calls sometimes just not working, but at least all
outgoing calls would.  Now it looks to be the opposite.  kermit or UUCICO
report that device /dev/cua1 is busy, even though the getty running on
/dev/ttyS1 has no controlling tty (as it should be).

For reference:
        486-50 8 megs
        USR Dual on /dev/ttyS1
        Generic 14400 on /dev/ttyS3
        STB 4COM 4 port 16554 card

I use the generic 14400 modem and line for my slip activities, but to test
out a theory, if I try to dial out on that line, it works fine, until a
few calls com in on that line, then the same thing happens.

Hope this helps out here.

--
Mike Horwath    IRC: Drechsau   BBS: Drechsau   LIFE: lover
root@jacobs.mn.org  drechsau@jacobs.mn.org
Jacob's Ladder  612-588-0201  UUCP, UseNet, Linux files, BBS

------------------------------

From: paolo@to.sem.it (Paolo Zeppegno)
Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d
Subject: Re: THE ULTIMATE FAQ ANSWER
Date: 7 Dec 1993 11:36:23 +0100

Even the old OSF royalty policy seem real stupid to me. Allowing shipment
of statically linked applications means that I can run an application
even if I did not pay any royalty to them for the runtime environment.
The right way to do it for me would be just the opposite, only allow the
shipment of dynamically linked copies of the executables, and if people
want to run them thay will have to pay OSF for the runtime.
I also think OSF should try as much as possible to make everybody ship
dynamically linked executable, so that they won't in the future have
the same problems sun is having in the transition between sunos and solaris.
(I mean about software availability).

Just off the top of my head...
        paolo zeppegno
-- 
Dr. Paolo Zeppegno                              email:  paolo@to.sem.it
Systems and Management S.p.A.                           zeppegno@relay.iunet.it
Via Alfieri 19                                  phone:  +39-11-561-2323
10121 Torino ITALY                              fax:    +39-11-557-6304

------------------------------

From: paolo@to.sem.it (Paolo Zeppegno)
Subject: Re: Xconfig
Date: 7 Dec 1993 11:41:08 +0100

There was one intelligent proposal some time ago, about writing a dos program
that using the bios would print the right clock values. I don't know what
happened about it. I seem to rememember that David Wexelblatt objected
that it wouldn't be legal??? to use such a program to help in setting up
the right clock entries.
        paolo zeppegno

P.S. read my lips, no changes to XFree86 required, here.
-- 
Dr. Paolo Zeppegno                              email:  paolo@to.sem.it
Systems and Management S.p.A.                           zeppegno@relay.iunet.it
Via Alfieri 19                                  phone:  +39-11-561-2323
10121 Torino ITALY                              fax:    +39-11-557-6304

------------------------------

From: muts@compi.hobby.nl (Peter Mutsaers)
Subject: Re: ext2fs and 0.99pl14
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 00:30:14 GMT

>> On Sat, 4 Dec 1993 03:49:40 GMT, lam836@cs.cuhk.hk (Savio Lam) said:

  SL> I've upgraded to 0.99pl14 a few days ago. Just now, I ran
  SL> dosemu49pl3 and there seems to be a bug somewhere that causes
  SL> the keyboard to become inresponsive when I switch back to the VC
  SL> running dosemu (the screen was blanked, and Linux seems
  SL> inresponsive to what I type. This problem has happened more than
  SL> once in the past). I had no choice but to press the reset switch
  SL> on my PC. After this, I get the following warning everytime
  SL> during boot up:

You'd better press ctrl-alt-delete instead of reset. It will shutdown
first and keep your filesystems clean. It works also when dosemu hangs
(which I experienced with pl3 too).
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands.

------------------------------

From: iiitac@swan.pyr (Alan Cox)
Subject: Re: Appletalk and LINUX Update
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 18:03:05 GMT

In article <2e2ov2$d@TAMUTS.TAMU.EDU> Troy Thoele <tdt5238@zeus.tamu.edu> writes:
>Sorry for taking so long to get the final word out.  I had an
>overwhelming number of responses, mostly me too's.  So here's the
>problem:  CAP relied on the Bekrkeley Packet software, and must operate
>in the promiscus mode.  This means that all packets must be looked at,
>and not filtered by the Net2 code.  (If I'm wrong on this, e-mail me. 
>This is what I got from about 20 messages)
PL14 has SOCK_PACKET which is more effective and more powerful that
the Broken Packet Filter system. It does mean some tweaking of CAP however.
On the basis of the LPF boycott of Apple I will offer no help or
example code for this. You bought apple you fix it.
>
>Well, it looks like Linux needs the Berkeley Packet filter added.  This
>has to be done by someone who knows the kernel and the networking code.  
You could emulate it in user mode.
>

Alan


------------------------------

From: spj@ukelele.gcr.com (Guru Aleph_Null)
Subject: What is JAM? (Re: What tools would you use on Linux for business applications?)
Date: 9 Dec 1993 13:25:37 -0500

In article <1993Dec8.223434.12433@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>,
Martin Zam <marz@cococay.NoSubdomain.NoDomain> wrote:
>If you were to attempt this on Linux, what tools would you choose and why?
>I'm looking (hoping) for JAM-like functionality in the development tools.
>This ought to make for a lively discussion!  Have at it!

It ought to, because my first question is: What is JAM?





-- 
.---------------------------------------.  \    //~\ ~|~ |~~\
|Guru Aleph-Null     spj@ukelele.gcr.com|%  \  /|   | |  |   |
`---------------------------------------'#   \/  \_/ _|_ |__/
 %#######################################%   Where Prohibited.

------------------------------


** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **

The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:

    Internet: Linux-Development-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU

You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.development) via:

    Internet: Linux-Development@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU

Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
    nic.funet.fi				pub/OS/Linux
    tsx-11.mit.edu				pub/linux
    sunsite.unc.edu				pub/Linux

End of Linux-Development Digest
******************************
