Subject: Linux-Development Digest #300
From: Digestifier <Linux-Development-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Thu, 9 Dec 93 00:13:09 EST

Linux-Development Digest #300, Volume #1          Thu, 9 Dec 93 00:13:09 EST

Contents:
  Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas! (HALLAM-BAKER Phillip)
  Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas! (Dave Sill)
  Re: SCO binaries ??? (Rasmus Lerdorf)
  libc 4.5.4: Where? (Paul English)
  Re: tcp header checks? (Matthew Dillon)
  Re: Some questions from an new user... (Mike Horwath)
  Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas! (Amancio Hasty Jr)
  Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas! (Nathan Torkington)
  Re: Appletalk and LINUX Update (Michael CIAVARELLA)
  ISODE for Linux (Jason E Gorden)
  Re: Lots more stats in /proc aka /proc/loadavg (Rudolf Koenig)
  Help !!! (Pangaea)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d
From: hallam@dxal18.cern.ch (HALLAM-BAKER Phillip)
Subject: Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas!
Reply-To: hallam@alws.cern.ch
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 15:53:59 GMT


In article <1993Dec6.153330.29733@ornl.gov>, de5@de5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) writes:

|>In article <CHMB3H.EKu@cunews.carleton.ca>, nholtz@superior.carleton.ca (Neal Holtz) writes:
|>>In article <2dv0af$kai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Eric Bina <ebina@ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:
|>>>
|>>>    Eric (I feel much better now) Bina
|>>
|>>I think this was badly needed.
|>
|>I disagree.  I think was rude and served only to vent his spleen at the
|>expense of others.
|>
|>>I have wondered how you
|>>folks at NCSA had kept your composure (in public) up to now.
|>
|>It's called "self control", and it seems to be in short supply at NCSA.

Hardly.... I am amazed that they have kept quiet for so long.


Those people whinging for a Tk-TCL browser please note:-

        IT ALREADY EXISTS

        IT EXISTED BEFORE MOSAIC WAS RELEASED

        IT IS AVALIABLE FROM info.cern.ch 


Those people whinging for a free browser for platform ???

        IT ALMOST CERTAINLY EXISTS

        WHY NOT FIND OUT BEFORE FLAMING NCSA FOR NOT PRODUCING IT


Whinging at NCSA for using Motif is a stupid as whinging at the Xrn people
for using X. Mosaic is not the web, the web is simply the idea of a URL
and to a lesser degree HTML and HTTP. Just as people are using Tin, Xrn,
Mxrn, gnews etc to read this post you can use Viola, TKWWW, WWW, Mambo
or even (gasp!) Mosaic to use the Web.


|>>For years I have been using software provided freely by NCSA,
|>>and have been very grateful for all of it.  I'm continually amazed
|>>that you can keep providing it.  Thank you for that, as well.
|>
|>I agree.
|>
|>>Recipients of free software have no right to expect anything, except
|>>perhaps, absence of malice.
|>
|>Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
|>own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
|>they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
|>product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
|>called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
|>can't make everyone happy.

Your model of how free software arrives is completely wrong. My guess is that
NCSA joined the W3 project because they were interested in hypertext info
systems and Tim's HTML and HTTP seemed to be a good basis for things they
wanted to do, like add in the images and sounds and such.

Being masochists they decided to release Mosaic so that other people could also
benefit from it. This is in itself a lot of work. Probably a damn sight more 
than writing it in the first place. How many dweebs do you think contact 
NCSA per day complaining that the tar file they ftp'd in asci mode is corrupted?
Several hundred silly problems is a hell of a lot of work. Add to that the
people who can't get it going because their machine is broken (incompatible
UNIX, broken X server, etc...)


This discussion is hardly productive. It is seriously pissing off a guy (not
at NCSA) with an editing browser which provides meta-protocols, async I/O and
user definable tags (including maths and graphics). Perhaps if you guys all stop
pestering NCSA over their entirely reasonable decision to use Mosaic he might 
conclude that finishing and releasing it might be a good thing. If you 
continue he might decide not to bother and that he can save himself a hell
of a lot of hassle.


--
Phillip M. Hallam-Baker

Not Speaking for anyone else.

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d
From: de5@de5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill)
Subject: Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas!
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 17:40:11 GMT

In article <1993Dec8.155359.25579@dxcern.cern.ch>, hallam@dxal18.cern.ch (HALLAM-BAKER Phillip) writes:
>
>Whinging at NCSA for using Motif is a stupid as whinging at the Xrn people
>for using X.

What is "whinging"?

>|Dave Sill said:
>|>
>|>Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
>|>own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
>|>they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
>|>product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
>|>called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
>|>can't make everyone happy.
>
>Your model of how free software arrives is completely wrong.

What model did you infer from my statement?

>Being masochists they decided to release Mosaic so that other people could also
>benefit from it.

Being largely publicly funded...

>This is in itself a lot of work. Probably a damn sight more 
>than writing it in the first place. How many dweebs do you think contact 
>NCSA per day complaining that the tar file they ftp'd in asci mode is corrupted?

I think you're probably overstating the problem.

>This discussion is hardly productive.

Discussion is rarely productive.

>It is seriously pissing off a guy (not
>at NCSA) with an editing browser which provides meta-protocols, async I/O and
>user definable tags (including maths and graphics). Perhaps if you guys all stop
>pestering NCSA over their entirely reasonable decision to use Mosaic he might 
>conclude that finishing and releasing it might be a good thing. If you 
>continue he might decide not to bother and that he can save himself a hell
>of a lot of hassle.

If he's going to be a curmudeon, expect people to be infinitely grateful to
him for gracing us with his code, or freak out if/when people gripe at
him, he probably *should* keep it to himself.

-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)             Computers should work the way beginners
Martin Marietta Energy Systems       expect them to, and one day they will.
Workstation Support                                            -- Ted Nelson
URL http://gatekeeper.dec.com/archive/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html

------------------------------

From: rlerdorf@netcom.com (Rasmus Lerdorf)
Subject: Re: SCO binaries ???
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 17:29:49 GMT

i17i@zfn.uni-bremen.de (Andreas Nolte) writes:

>       Hi there!

>       I've heard rumors about SCO binaries (or other commercial Unix bimaries)
>       running under Linux. Could please someone tell me, if this is true, and
>       if it's any stable, since I'd like to work with WordPerfect for Unix 
>       under Linux. Right now wordprossesing is the only reason for me working
>       with hated crashing-all-the-time slow Windows, and I hate it.

>       Please someone comment on that,

The SCO binaries I have tried to run under Linux did not work at all.

*Rasmus*

------------------------------

From: paule@alain.st.nepean.uws.edu.au (Paul English)
Subject: libc 4.5.4: Where?
Date: 08 Dec 1993 05:08:11 GMT

In article <1993Nov29.175705.19745@nynexst.com> hjl@nynexst.com (H.J. Lu) writes:

> In article <2dd3l7$8jn@crcnis1.unl.edu>, jepler@herbie.unl.edu (Jeff Epler) writes:
> 
> Gcc 2.5.5 has been released. But my binaries require libc 4.5.x, which
> I am going to send out for the final testing today. You should expect
> gcc 2.5.5 and libc 4.5.4 in two days or so. If you are on the bleeding
> edge, you are probably running them now :-(.
> 
> H.J.

This article was posted back on November 29, and I've now seen several
posts referring to libc 4.5.4.  I've compiled gcc 2.5.6 OK with the
old libraries, but it would be nice to have the latest ones, so where
are they?  Sunsite is still at libc 4.4.4.  Is there some other site I
should be looking at for the latest libraries?

Thanks in advance.

Paul.


--
 ,-_|\     | Paul English (p.english@st.nepean.uws.edu.au) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
/     \    | Associate Lecturer      | PO Box 10      | Ph:  +61 47 36 0435 
\_.--_/ <- | Department of Computing | Kingswood 2747 | Fax: +61 47 36 0770 
     v     | UWS - Nepean            | NSW, AUSTRALIA |

------------------------------

From: dillon@apollo.west.oic.com (Matthew Dillon)
Subject: Re: tcp header checks?
Date: 8 Dec 1993 11:13:54 -0800

In article <2dur6m$dsk@agate.berkeley.edu> genie@scam.Berkeley.EDU (Gene Choi) writes:
:
:Hi there,
:
:I'd like to report a small problem I've been having with (C)SLIP
:using linux 0.99pl11-pl14.  This might be a problem with the way tcp
:packet headers are assembled (although I don't have a clue really
:since I haven't read the source or know even the faintest details 
:behind it).  Anyway here's the problem:
:
:CSLIP is working perfectly when I turn on the error correction capability
:of my modem - a 14.4k Zoom.  (error correction being either v.42 or
:MNP5).  However, when I start up (C)SLIP without error correction,
:after about 10 minutes of plug and chug, the computer freezes and/or
:reboots.  Again, this does NOT happen when I turn on error correction.
:My best guess is that the problem arose because of some random line
:noise creeping into the phone line.  Anyway I reported to my school
:sysadmin this problem I was having - he reported that it was probably
:they way linux did tcp packets, and that random line noise was 
:doing something nasty to the OS.  He also reported that SunOS way back
:when had this exact same problem - without error correction, the kernel
:went berzerk with bad packets via line noise.
:
:My problem is this - shouldn't random noise be ignored and packets resent
:without freezing/rebooting the kernel?  I wish I could pinpoint what the
:problem was but I can't since I have no xp with net code in any way.
:
:Now you ask, why use CSLIP with no error correction?  Because response time
:is WAY WAY WAY better WITHOUT error correction (reduces my ping times
:by 100-120 ms && takes me under the 200 ms mark for 64 byte pings).
:You can actually get work done without error correction (in my opinion).
:Correction added too much latency times making the text jumpy
:and bothersome.
:
:My setup now: Linux pl14 386 33 12 megs ram 16550AFN com2 (modem).
:but problem existed from pl11.
:
:-Gene
:genie@xcf.berkeley.edu

    The answer is:  When the networking code diverged I made a lot of
    changes to the Net2EAlpha4 (now Beta-2) to fix problems with corrupted
    TCP packets crashing the machine.

    The stuff shipped with pl14, however, is Net2Debugged and probably does
    not have all the fixes.

    I suggest you turn error correction back on.  Amoung other things,
    turning on error correction gives you end-to-end flow control which
    you do NOT have when error correction is off.. that is, the case where
    you transmit data and the other modem's receive buffer fills up because
    the remote computer is too slow or otherwise doesn't leave RTS up long 
    enough to drain the buffer.

    If you are getting such disparate differences in response time make sure
    you are using LAP/M and NOT MNP.  Your modem may also have buffering 
    options to allow you to reduce the buffer size or hold delay.

                                            -Matt

-- 

    Matthew Dillon              dillon@apollo.west.oic.com
    1005 Apollo Way
    Incline Village, NV. 89451  ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
    USA                         Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000
    [always include a portion of the original email in any response!]


------------------------------

From: root@jacobs.mn.org (Mike Horwath)
Subject: Re: Some questions from an new user...
Date: 8 Dec 1993 17:08:17 GMT

Daniel Garcia (system overlord) (kender@executor) wrote:
: Slaving away in a dark room, allan@colossus.mct.uucp (Allan Clearwaters - System Guru) produced:
: >
: >A couple of other questions.  How do I get tin to compile.  I tried the
: >distribution from SLS; it claims that if a 'make minix' it will work.  Not
: >so.  Is there a better distribution??

: Make minix isn't what you want, make sysv is.  At least, that's what I used
: to get tin to compile (I personally use trn, but we have both installed
: on my roommate's machine ;).  In addition, I run it over term without any
: problems ;)

:|Dan Garcia,Kender@esu.edu

And you are wrong also.

make linux

It is in the makefile and has been for awhile if I am remembering right.

--
Mike Horwath    IRC: Drechsau   BBS: Drechsau   LIFE: lover
root@jacobs.mn.org  drechsau@jacobs.mn.org
Jacob's Ladder  612-588-0201  UUCP, UseNet, Linux files, BBS

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d
From: hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr)
Subject: Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas!
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 20:08:04 GMT

In article <1993Dec8.133410.7920@ornl.gov> de5@de5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) writes:
>In article <CHnw0r.Fus@ucc.su.OZ.AU>, dawes@physics.su.OZ.AU (David Dawes) writes:
>>In article <1993Dec6.153330.29733@ornl.gov> de5@de5.ctd.ornl.gov (Dave Sill) writes:
>>>
>>>Hogwash.  The producers are free to ignore their customers desires at their
>>>own peril, but users are free to ask for or expect whatever they want.  (If
>>>they don't get what they expect, they're also free to stop using the
>>>product, find one that does meet their needs, hack the code, etc.)  It's
>>>called "feedback", and most implementors appreciate it even if they 
>>>can't make everyone happy.
>>
>>Freeware developers appreciate constructive feedback, but they don't
>>appreciate demands from those who choose to use their software.  From
>>my experience, expectations of users are too often presented to the
>>developers in the form of demands, and often rudely.
>
>Two wrongs don't make a right.  Sure, some people have been rude to the
>Mosaic developers--I don't condone that at all.  However, the developers
>responded in kind--even to those who were nothing but polite to them.
>
>>I think your use of "customer" to describe the users of free software
>>is inappropriate.
>
>Whether they pay (directly) or not, or don't even pay indirectly through
>their taxes, people that use Mosaic are still NCSA's customers, and they
>deserve to be treated with respect--provided they are respectful
>themselves.
>
>>What exactly is the "peril" producers face?  That fewer
>>people use their software?
>
>That's certainly one peril.  Another is a backlash resulting in reduced
>funding by corporate donors and government agencies.
>

Another backlash of sorts is that we may see other applications
like Mosaic without Motif emerging which as many have pointed out is not 
such a bad idea because then we will have more choices.
If the next generation of the mosaic clone is superior to the 
original one  it may render the current mosaic obsolete. It is far
easier to design/develop a system using an existing working
system as a model. By no means this implies that the task will
be easy rather easier than starting from a blank xterm screen.

Again, I really like mosaic .

        Amancio

-- 
This message brought to you by the letters X and S and the number 3
Amancio Hasty           |  
Home: (415) 495-3046    |  ftp-site depository of all my work:
e-mail hasty@netcom.com |  sunvis.rtpnc.epa.gov:/pub/386bsd/X

------------------------------

From: gnat@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Nathan Torkington)
Crossposted-To: comp.infosystems.www,comp.windows.x,comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.windows.x.motif,gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sources.d
Subject: Re: Merry $*!@ing Christmas!
Date: 08 Dec 1993 22:04:41 GMT

At the risk of being out in the open here, I like Mosaic, and I think
they did well to use Motif.  It's cute, it's quick (ish), and it's
stable (er).  If I can actually *find* Marc, next time I'm in
Illinois, I'm going to buy him and Eric a beer and thank them in
person.

Sheeit, some people don't know when they got it good.

Nat

------------------------------

From: mikec@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Michael CIAVARELLA)
Subject: Re: Appletalk and LINUX Update
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 23:27:27 GMT

Troy Thoele <tdt5238@zeus.tamu.edu> writes:


>CAP (Columbia Appletalk Package?) also could stand some enhancements. 
>Mainly, Ethertalk phase 2, 

It already supports it.  Well, either it supports it, or I'm imagining
most of my network :-) 


> and TCP/IP to Ethertalk routing.  This would
>let Linux be a gateway from the Mac world.

Do you mean tunneling?  If so, then look at UAR and ARNS which (I think)
provide tunneling of etalk in IP.  If you have a Fastpath, Gatorbox or
similar, you should almost be able to run CAP out of the box on Linux
since you could let the Fastpath handle conversion for KIP to Localtalk.  
Problems are things like signal handlers which have different semantics in 
Linux....

Mike


------------------------------

From: gorden@jegnixa.hsc.missouri.edu (Jason E Gorden)
Subject: ISODE for Linux
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 22:11:45 GMT

I do not know of one, but I have tried (fruitlessly) to compile it.
I am trying to det up a DSA for MU here, and I have it running
(basically) right now on a UnixWare SYSV4.2 machine.  But I would
MUCH prefer to have it running under Linux.

I would be willing to help with a port, but frankly I was overwhelmed
when I even thought about doing it myself.

--Jason
Pls send me e-mail if you know of a port!

--
=========================================================================
Jason E Gorden                          gorden@jegnixa.hsc.missouri.edu
M331B HSC                               jason@wpogate.missouri.edu
1 Hospital Drive                        c598588@mizzou1.missouri.edu
University of Missouri Columbia
=========================================================================



------------------------------

From: rfkoenig@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Rudolf Koenig)
Subject: Re: Lots more stats in /proc aka /proc/loadavg
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 16:43:28 GMT

wos@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Will Smith) writes:
>I have written patches to Linux to include 
>       o       /proc/swapavg (number of pages swapped per second) 
>       o       /proc/bufavg (number of disk reads and cache hits).  

Nothing against your patch, but...

I wrote an rstatd and a perfmeter clone for Linux about two months ago.

rstatd is a demon, which reports cpu usage, disk transfer, context switches,
swap & page activity, interrupts, network statistics. Since it is an RPC
service, you can query the statistics over the network.
perfmeter is a program to report this statistics continuously in a graph.

I'd like to collect statistics this way, since rstatd seems to be standard
on most systems. (SunOS,HP-UX,IRIX,Dynix/ptx,UNICOS,EP/IX...)

The kernel part of the rstatd creates a "/proc/stat" where everyone can read
the data. The network statistics are available via ioctl with the net2e
package (thanks to Marco van Wieringen).

I've sent the patches to Linus about three (or was it four?) weeks ago,
but I've received no answer yet. :-(

For those who would like to try it out, it is available in
  faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de:/pub/Linux/LOCAL/rstatd

  Rudi

(rfkoenig@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de)

------------------------------

From: gramlich@nibelung.Worms.Fh-Rpl.DE (Pangaea)
Subject: Help !!!
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1993 13:41:40 GMT

Hi!
Is there a place where I can find a non-TeX non-PS version of the 
Kernel Hacker Guide? I have no laser printer at home and my NEC 
will need hours to print this ( beside that I will go deaf :-( ).
I need this urgent..

        Thilo
        _________________________________________________
        \       gramlich@nibelung.worms.fh-rpl.de       /
         \                                             /
          \             REUNITE PANGAEA!              /
           \ ________________________________________/

        This message was brought to you from the romantical 
                          Rhine valley, 
                   just beside the BASF AG ... 

------------------------------


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