Subject: Linux-Development Digest #161
From: Digestifier <Linux-Development-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Wed, 13 Oct 93 06:13:06 EDT

Linux-Development Digest #161, Volume #1         Wed, 13 Oct 93 06:13:06 EDT

Contents:
  Re: books about [34]86 assembler programming? (William Magro)
  Re: Questions are permitted on c.o.l.d (was Re: RFD: Removal of group "comp.os.linux.development") (Juha Laiho)
  Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Warner Losh)
  Re: coff, elf enough to run comapps? (Al Longyear)
  Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Ed H. Chi)
  Re: RFD: Removal of group "comp.os.linux.development" (Wolfgang Schelongowski)
  Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Dave Nebinger)
  Loopback mounts ?
  Re: possible bug in virtual console switching (Kevin Brown)
  SCSI & bad block => general protection (Stein)
  Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Kevin Brown)
  Re: RFD: Removal of group "comp.os.linux.development" (Kevin Brown)
  Re: Linux System Administration Tools (Kai Voigt)
  Re: Loopback mounts ? (Steef S.G. de Bruijn)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: wmagro@baron.ncsa.uiuc.edu (William Magro)
Subject: Re: books about [34]86 assembler programming?
Date: 12 Oct 1993 18:25:40 GMT

Michael Utech (michael@utex.rni.sub.org) wrote:
: All i found was a book about MS-Assembler, not quite what i'm
: looking for.

I have a copy of a book by an old friend of mine, Steven Holzner, published
by Brady.  It is entitled _Advanced Assembly Programming on the IBM PC_,
or something like that.  I would happily sell it (since I never intend
to mess with 386 assembly), but it was autographed and given to me as a 
gift.

I am not sure whether there is any [34]86 specific info in it, however.

My favorite way to learn assembly is to write a _simple_ piece of C code,
compile it, then read the resulting assembly code...

--
William Magro                                       NeXTMail welcome
wmagro@uiuc.edu

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: jlaiho@ichaos.nullnet.fi (Juha Laiho)
Subject: Re: Questions are permitted on c.o.l.d (was Re: RFD: Removal of group "comp.os.linux.development")
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 07:35:13 GMT

byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) said:
>1) Development questions are welcome.
>2) Non-development questions should be directed to c.o.l.help and
>3) Non-development questions should not be answered here.
>
>I gurantee that if we don't answer the questions here people will stop posting
>them here.
>
Yup, and instead of posting them questions here people will start bitching
about how no-one answers their questions... otherwise that look just fine.
-- 
Wolf  a.k.a.  Juha Laiho     Helsinki, Finland
(Geek Code 1.0.1) GCS d? p c++ l++ u(-) e+ m+ s+/- n- h(*) f(?) !g w+ t- r y+
"...cancel my subscription to the resurrection!" (Jim Morrison)

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: imp@boulder.parcplace.com (Warner Losh)
Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:41:17 GMT

In article <1993Oct12.051007.10199@rzrbyte.fay.ar.us>
tep@rzrbyte.fay.ar.us (Tim Peoples) writes: 
>All I really want is for c.o.l.* groups to be productive forums that
>promote the advancement of Linux and not a haven for self-righteous
>bullies. 

Hear hear.

I've noticed far too much "attitude" in the groups of late.  People
aren't even being polite about things any more.  Maybe its just me,
but I do get annoyed when people can't tolerate others who happen to
make mistakes and use that as an excuse to be rude and beligerant.

I've been flamed many times for things I have said or done in these
groups and it is pissing me off slowly.  It is uncalled for and very
rude.  It makes me wonder why I even bother with Linux at all.

Warner
-- 
Warner Losh             imp@boulder.parcplace.COM       ParcPlace Boulder
I've almost finished my brute force solution to subtlety.

------------------------------

From: longyear@server1.sii.com (Al Longyear)
Subject: Re: coff, elf enough to run comapps?
Date: 12 Oct 1993 23:27:01 GMT

Michael Utech (michael@utex.rni.sub.org) wrote:

> So i wonder whether having coff and/or elf support is
> enough to run binaries compiled for eg. SCO, ISC Unices? How about
> system calls, is their definition also covered by the object file
> format?  Will it be possible to run all (or at least majority of) SCO
> binaries when coff support will be finished (or beta, gamma, ...)  for
> Linux?

That is the goal!

The SCO, Interactive UNIX, and others use a standard called "Intel Binary
Compatibility Specification". The current version is version 2. (If you
wish documentation on the standard, it is available in a book by that title
published by McGraw-Hill.)

There is serious work being done now to provide a translation layer between
an IBCS2 application and the Linux operating system. Toward that end, you
will find in the current kernel a file called "elfabi". At the present time,
in the distributed kernels, it is simply a stub routine. The stub will be
replaced with a module which will translate the system calls, error numbers,
IOCTL requests (for some devices and terminals), stat() requests, etc. as
needed so that the program will believe that it is running on an IBCS2
compliant operating system.

The IBCS2 interpreter has just recently been enhanced to support the missing
IOCTL functions. However, releasing the pieces in a "dribble" fashion will
probably do more harm than good. What is needed is the complete package. We
must have shared libraries, X window support, ELF, COFF, and IBCS2. Having
just one piece will not do much good. (It would be like someone giving you
a key to an automobile but not give you the automobile. The key is nice.
The automobile is nice. However you must have both to make use of either.)

Linux is able to load three different object file formats: its own a.out,
ELF, and COFF. The IBCS2 specification defines an additional file format,
x.out. Whether or not this is done is not very significant. I will probably
write a loader for it (as I am able to generate the object files for this
format using an earlier SCO system) once work is complete on the shared
libraries for IBCS2. However, loading x.out is not very high on the list of
priorities. COFF will be totally satisfactory for SVr3 platform objects.

[Don't look for the _released_ kernel to load anything but a.out. If you
need COFF or ELF, then join the developer's mailing list and request the
location of the code there. We can use all of the help that you can offer.
(The X windows shared library must be done. Do you wish to help?)]

> A related question: I read that Linux uses a.out (BSD's) OFF, but
> it doesn't seem to be possible to run (386/Free)BSD(386). Right?

I rather doubt that Linux will be able to use BSD's a.out object file format,
however, I may be wrong. It is only an opinion. I can say that even if Linux
will load the program IT WILL NOT EXECUTE properly.

The conclusion to all of this is that the work has not stopped. It has simply
moved "under-ground".

> PS: hope that this isn't a too frequently asked question :/

--just lately. :-)

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: ehhchi@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Ed H. Chi)
Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 00:05:07 GMT

In article <CEsp4u.CFt@boulder.parcplace.com> imp@boulder.parcplace.com (Warner Losh) writes:
>I've noticed far too much "attitude" in the groups of late.  People
>aren't even being polite about things any more.  Maybe its just me,
>but I do get annoyed when people can't tolerate others who happen to
>make mistakes and use that as an excuse to be rude and beligerant.

>I've been flamed many times for things I have said or done in these
>groups and it is pissing me off slowly.  It is uncalled for and very
>rude.


hear, hear!

I've been flamed when I ask people to post the article to the correct
group(s).  I've been flamed when I say what I know about the subject and
then refer them to the FAQ (the HOWTOs).  The usual response is
"I'm sicking tired of people telling me to read the FAQ."

If people ask you to read the FAQ, don't take it as an insult.  Maybe the
amount of people asking you to read the FAQ has something to do with the
fact that you haven't read it thouroughly.
--
  o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o    email: ehhchi@epx.cis.umn.edu
 /#      ##o     #     o##      #\          chi@mermaid.micro.umn.edu
 / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \   Dumping messy-dos, running Linux!

------------------------------

From: ws@xivic.bo.open.de (Wolfgang Schelongowski)
Crossposted-To: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Removal of group "comp.os.linux.development"
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 15:22:24 MEST

karsten@kshome.ruhr.de (Karsten Steffens) writes:

> ...                                                       development is
> not only going on in the area of kernel hacking and device driver writing. If
> a person has problems for instance in porting applications, this is also
> development,

These two sentences are right so far.

>              and of course it belongs into c.o.l.d., even if there exist
> lists related to those applications.

Definitely *N*O* ! c.o.l.d was created to (quoting):

        c.o.l.development, or "c.o.l.d" for short, is a newsgroup for
        questions and discussions about Linux kernel and systems-level
        development. Please note that this is a newsgroup about
        development OF Linux, not development FOR Linux. In other words,
======> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        c.o.l.d isn't for questions about programming or porting software
        to Linux. Instead, this is a newsgroup for discussions about
        developing the Linux kernel itself, including writing device
        drivers, adding new features, and so on. In addition, discussions
        about development of shared libraries, and other essential
        systems-level projects, are welcome here.

So if careless people swamp c.o.l.d with inappropriate postings,
Linux developers will get upset, and if this attitude persists,
_very_ upset, and finally they will start flaming - rightfully so,
because _their_ lawn is littered by other people. And remember that
it's the Linux developers who made and improve Linux.

One might even believe that this de-facto obstructive behaviour
is instigated by The Evil Empire (a.k.a WinzigWeich) to hamper
the development of Linux. Remember the threads like "Linux slowly
dying ... We need games for Linux" in THIS group ?

--
Wolfgang Schelongowski  ws@xivic.bo.open.de
Getting people to give vast amounts of money when there's no firm
idea what that money will do is like throwing maidens down a well.
  -- P. J. O'Rourke, Give War a Chance

------------------------------

From: dnebing@andy.bgsu.edu (Dave Nebinger)
Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 01:09:59 GMT

In article <CEsp4u.CFt@boulder.parcplace.com>, imp@boulder.parcplace.com
(Warner Losh) wrote:

> In article <1993Oct12.051007.10199@rzrbyte.fay.ar.us>
> tep@rzrbyte.fay.ar.us (Tim Peoples) writes: 
> >All I really want is for c.o.l.* groups to be productive forums that
> >promote the advancement of Linux and not a haven for self-righteous
> >bullies. 
> 
> Hear hear.
> 
> I've noticed far too much "attitude" in the groups of late.  People
> aren't even being polite about things any more.  Maybe its just me,
> but I do get annoyed when people can't tolerate others who happen to
> make mistakes and use that as an excuse to be rude and beligerant.

  Who is to decide when a poster should be flamed or not?  I don't
want to start an argument (or get flamed myself), but there are
cases where one would say "enough is enough" and flame someone for
posting something which was ligitimate to them but dumb to anyone
else.

  For example, if someone posts a "bug" alert that was just a
case of their incorrect installation or configuration, does this
warrant a flame?  If someone posts a message to the wrong group
or to all the groups at the same time, does this case warrant a
flame?  For someone posting a question about something which is
in the FAQ, does this warrant a flame?

  Maybe you would not flame someone for these cases, but sometimes 
you just have to say "RTFM".

  As far as the "attitude" problem goes, that's a difference in
personality.  Such conflicts will always exist.  What is a mild
annoyance to you might be a major problem for me.  People are
different and respond differently to the same stimuli.

  I think the best advice for everyone involved would be "Take
a pill, dude."  

Dave.

============================================================
Dave Nebinger                    dnebing@andy.bgsu.edu
Network Manager, Biology Dept.   dnebing@opie.bgsu.edu
Bowling Green State University   dnebing@bgsuopie (bitnet)
Bowling Green, OH 43403          #include <std_disclaimer.h>

------------------------------

From: hm@ix.de ()
Subject: Loopback mounts ?
Reply-To: hm@ix.de
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:22:19 GMT

Subject says all -- is anybody working on the implementation
of loopback mounts?

--
Harald Milz                             phone +49 (511) 53 52-377
iX Multiuser Multitasking Magazine      fax   +49 (511) 53 52-361
Helstorfer Str. 7, D-30625 Hannover     office:  hm@ix.de
P.O. Box 61 04 07, D-30604 Hannover     private: hm@seneca.ix.de

------------------------------

From: kevin@frobozz.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: possible bug in virtual console switching
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 03:21:29 GMT

In article <1993Oct11.210104.7909@excaliber.uucp> joel@rac2.wam.umd.edu (Joel M. Hoffman) writes:
>In article <29c2o5$dfi@klaava.Helsinki.FI> kankkune@cs.Helsinki.FI (Risto Kankkunen) writes:
>>>I find the same thing (with dosemu and other VC's).  So, there's
>>>clearly something wrong.  And what's wrong is the VC switching, and in
>>>[...]
>>
>>There was a bug in the keyboard driver that made it confuse the state of
>>modifier keys when switching between raw and nonraw consoles. I thought
>>that was fixed in pl13, at least a patch for that was sent to Linus. (I
>>can't currently verify that with dosemu or X, I don't have a working
>>version of them installed.)
>
>
>Well, I'm running pl12, so that would make sense.  Can anyone confirm
>(or deny) that the bug was fixed in pl13?

The bug was not fixed in pl13, which is what I'm currently running.

The bug did not exist in pl10, which is what I was running before.  It's
not clear to me why this bug crept in...

References to the patch for this would be appreciated...


-- 
Kevin Brown                                     kevin@frobozz.sccsi.com
This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
            This is your .signature virus on drugs: <>
                        Any questions?

------------------------------

From: steinj@convex.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de (Stein)
Crossposted-To: de.comp.os.linux,hhu.linux
Subject: SCSI & bad block => general protection
Date: 13 Oct 1993 08:57:32 +0100


Hi,
I was suspecting bad blocks on my harddrive and issued
e2fsck -cfrv /dev/sdb2
to check it out, when the system locked up with the message

general protection: 0000
EIP:    0010:0014ca16
EFLAGS: 00010213
eax: 65724220 ebx: 00000000 ecx: 00001251 edx: 00004946
esi: 65724220 edi: 2f207474 ebp: 00190bec
ds: 0018 es: 0018 fs: 002b gs: 002b
f3 a5 f6 c2 01 74 01 a4 f6 c2
SCSI host 0 timed out - aborting command

I suspect that a bad block was found (harddrive made noise), 
but the SCSI-driver refused to handle it correctly.

Relevant configuration:
Linux 0.99.10
SLS 1.02
e2fsprogs 0.3
Seagate ST-02 SCSI host
Seagate ST 296N

Part of nm zSystem output:
0014c610 t sd.o
0014c690 t _end_scsi_request
0014c7a4 t _sd_open
0014c848 t _sd_release
0014c89c t _sd_geninit
0014c9a4 t _rw_intr
0014cd20 t _do_sd_request
0014cf48 t _requeue_sd_request
0014d5ac T _check_scsidisk_media_change
0014d664 t _sd_init_done
0014d7b8 t _sd_init_onedisk
0014db90 T _sd_init
0014dcbc T _sd_init1
0014dcec T _sd_attach
0014dd4c T _revalidate_scsidisk
0014de34 t gcc2_compiled.

Earlier versions of Linux (prior .99.6) just dumped core, but continued
to run.

Thank you for your attention.
Jochen
-- 
Jochen Stein           2:243/7816.6         steinj@convex.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
     "Nihil solidum nisi solum"         Kaspar Jodok Stockalper vom Thurm

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: kevin@frobozz.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 03:48:37 GMT

In article <CEt71s.CDI@news2.cis.umn.edu> ehhchi@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Ed H. Chi) writes:
>
>I've been flamed when I ask people to post the article to the correct
>group(s).  I've been flamed when I say what I know about the subject and
>then refer them to the FAQ (the HOWTOs).  The usual response is
>"I'm sicking tired of people telling me to read the FAQ."
>
>If people ask you to read the FAQ, don't take it as an insult.  Maybe the
>amount of people asking you to read the FAQ has something to do with the
>fact that you haven't read it thouroughly.

I can see why someone might not want to wade through the FAQ.  In all, the
FAQ is over 500k in size!!!  This is about the size of a paperback novel, I
think.  OF COURSE people aren't going to want to wade through the FAQ, and
for good reason: there's a lot of it to wade through.

Indeed, it's enough to make one think that one needs to have Linux up (to
have access to good text manipulation tools) in order to use the FAQ.  :-)

What we need is a mail-based FAQ server.  :-)

Seriously, a facility that "knows" about the FAQ (or some other appropriate
document) and can answer simple questions by yanking out sections of the
document that match keywords in the question and mailing them to the person
asking might be quite useful.

Someone who knows enough about grep, regular expressions, etc., could
easily find the answers themselves, of course, but such a person would
probably be the type least in need of the FAQ to begin with.  You can
safely assume that people who are new to Linux are likely to be new to
Unix as well, and thus won't be familiar with the facilities that would
make their search for information in the FAQ relatively painless.

So until such a facility comes into being, cut the newbies some slack, eh?



-- 
Kevin Brown                                     kevin@frobozz.sccsi.com
This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
            This is your .signature virus on drugs: <>
                        Any questions?

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: kevin@frobozz.sccsi.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Re: RFD: Removal of group "comp.os.linux.development"
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 04:48:43 GMT

In article <2Z7aBc2w165w@xivic.bo.open.de> ws@xivic.bo.open.de (Wolfgang Schelongowski) writes:

[...]

>Definitely *N*O* ! c.o.l.d was created to (quoting):
>
>        c.o.l.development, or "c.o.l.d" for short, is a newsgroup for
>        questions and discussions about Linux kernel and systems-level
>        development. Please note that this is a newsgroup about
>        development OF Linux, not development FOR Linux. In other words,
>------> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>        c.o.l.d isn't for questions about programming or porting software
>        to Linux. Instead, this is a newsgroup for discussions about
>        developing the Linux kernel itself, including writing device
>        drivers, adding new features, and so on. In addition, discussions
>        about development of shared libraries, and other essential
>        systems-level projects, are welcome here.
>
>So if careless people swamp c.o.l.d with inappropriate postings,
>Linux developers will get upset, and if this attitude persists,
>_very_ upset, and finally they will start flaming - rightfully so,
>because _their_ lawn is littered by other people. And remember that
>it's the Linux developers who made and improve Linux.

Are there really enough people doing kernel hacking, developing device
drivers, and creating libraries to warrant an entire newsgroup?  I realize
that it's a convenient forum, but mailing lists typically have a much
larger signal to noise ratio, and a mailing list for Linux kernel hacking
is already in place.

If there are indeed a large number of people doing kernel hacking and so
forth, then I definitely agree that c.o.l.d. should be here for them.  But
if not, then it seems to me that it's more trouble than it's worth, given
the propensity of newbies to post questions to every newsgroup known to
man.  :-)

In any case, I think the name of the newsgroup leaves something to be
desired.  From the name, one would think that the newsgroup was for the
purpose of discussion of doing development under Linux as well as actual
development *of* Linux.  Since only the latter is true of c.o.l.d, I think
the newsgroup should be renamed to something more suggestive, like
comp.os.linux.kernel.

Indeed, what we need is something like:

    comp.os.linux.questions/help (don't know which would work better)
    comp.os.linux.applications
    comp.os.linux.kernel
    comp.os.linux.admin
    comp.os.linux.announce

and maybe

    comp.os.linux.applications.porting

if traffic in comp.os.linux.applications gets too swamped with questions
about applications rather than about porting applications.

Yeah, I know people are supposed to read the newsgroup charter, but how
many people even know how to do that, much less where to look?  Not many.
To expect them to do so is to overlook basic human nature, which is to
say that people will generally accomplish what they need with what looks
to them like minimum effort.

In hindsight, it looks like the naming paid too much attention to catchy
acronyms (c.o.l.d.  Gezundheit!) rather than the issue of making the
purpose of the newsgroup obvious from the name.


-- 
Kevin Brown                                     kevin@frobozz.sccsi.com
This is your .signature virus: < begin 644 .signature (9V]T8VAA(0K0z end >
            This is your .signature virus on drugs: <>
                        Any questions?

------------------------------

From: kai@depeche.toppoint.de (Kai Voigt)
Subject: Re: Linux System Administration Tools
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:44:39 GMT

In <1993Oct12.163429.656@cathy.ijs.si> Andrej.Bauer@ijs.si (Andrej Bauer) writes:

>Dear Developers,

>is there anybody working on System Administration Tools for Linux?
>I think it would be nice to have an intelligent and easy-to-use
>program for Linux's System Administration (something like SAM for HP-UX,
>only more intelligent -- it should be very very smart).

I don't think that there are any sysadm tools for Linux yet, but
it would be good to have them.

>Politically it would be a very good thing to do, because it would
>boost the number of Linux users. From my experience I can say that
>one of the main reasons why people don't install Linux is the fact
>that it still takes quite some knowledge of Unix before everything
>starts working.

Agreed. But the SAM for HP-UX was an X tool when I remember correctly,
but a lot of people don't use X, just the ascii consoles. nevertheless
I'd like to have an X tool (what about using Tcl/Tk?) to do the admin
stuff!

>If anybody knows of a project or people who are working on this,
>please tell me. If such a project does not exist yet, anybody
>who is interested is welcome to contact me.

You definitely need a couple of people that know how to configure
net stuff, mail/news/uucp, user accounts etc. And a 'professional'
Linux distribution will need such a sysadm tool to keep up with other
OS's that have such tools.

>How do I find what is being developed for Linux, anyway?

Read this group :)

Kai
-- 
Kai Voigt, Werftstrasse 2, 24148 Kiel, Germany, +49 431 7297514
  The protestants say that life begins with birth, but the
  catholics say that life begins during "the act". But I say that
  life begins when the dog is dead and the children have left home.

------------------------------

From: debruijn@cs.utwente.nl (Steef S.G. de Bruijn)
Subject: Re: Loopback mounts ?
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 08:58:12 GMT

hm@ix.de wrote:
: Subject says all -- is anybody working on the implementation
: of loopback mounts?

What are you talking about?  Loopback is standard in the network
stuff (I thought). At least, I can telnet and FTP to myself.
Am I missing the point now, or is your question answered?

--
S.G. de Bruijn
Twente University of Technoloy, Dept. of Computer Science 
E-Mail: debruijn@cs.utwente.nl

Stevie "SpikerJack" de Bruijn  /--\___/--\
                              /     |o    \
                             / /|   |o  |\ \
                            / / |   |o  | \ \
                            --  |   |o  |  --
                                ---------

Planning is a difficult thing... Using Linux is not!


------------------------------


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