Subject: Linux-Development Digest #160
From: Digestifier <Linux-Development-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Development@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Tue, 12 Oct 93 13:13:13 EDT

Linux-Development Digest #160, Volume #1         Tue, 12 Oct 93 13:13:13 EDT

Contents:
  The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Tim Peoples)
  books about [34]86 assembler programming? (Michael Utech)
  Re: NO QUESTIONS HERE PLEASE / RTF FAQ (Re: -m486 doing nothing?) (Remco Treffkorn)
  Re: coff, elf enough to run comapps? (Eric Youngdale)
  Re: setitimer bug ? (Robert Lister)
  Re: Page fault (Harm Hanemaaijer)
  Linux System Administration Tools (Andrej Bauer)
  >Re: CMS Jumbo (QIC 40/80) Driver Status (Gareth Bult)
  Bug (?) in the XT disk code... ("Dan Newcombe")
  Re: [PATCH] BogoBoost speedup for Linux (Jon Brawn)
  Re: NO QUESTIONS HERE PLEASE / RTF FAQ (Re: -m486 doing nothing?) (Stefan Lukka)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: tep@rzrbyte.fay.ar.us (Tim Peoples)
Subject: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 05:10:07 GMT



   Well I guess I really stirred up a stink, didn't I.  Sorry 'bout
that.  So far I have refrained from responding to the few angry,
hostile and down right abusive responses to my "RFD", but the time is
ripe.  So, here goes...

   There has been much speculation as to my motivation for posting an
obviously bogus RFD to remove the group comp.os.linux.development.  I
hope that this post can clear that up and bring this whole issue to a
close.  As a result of my post I have been both praised and attacked,
both of which were expected.  I must admit, though, that I did not expect
this to grow with such feverous abandon.  For now, I hope to put the genie
back into his bottle.


   With great regret I must admit that, yes, my intentions were to incite
anger amongst a very few people, and for this I apologize.  My only regret
was that there were a few who could not see the post for what it really
was; a protest against those few (the ones who got the most angry) who feel
that they must be excessively brutal in order to get their point across.
For this I felt compelled to be equally brutal.

   There are some who feel that my post was very detrimental to the Linux cause,
but I disagree. If my post was able to persuade one and only one person to
think twice before brutally attacking someone for posting to the wrong group,
then I feel it was exceptionally positive.

   Now don't get me wrong!  I am not one of those total anarchists who feels
that anyone should be able to post whatever they want wherever they want.
I completely agree that general questions should be steered away from
c.o.l.d and towards a more appropriate group.  I have absolutely no problem
with anyone doing this (I myself have done it in the past).  What I do
take exception with is the fact that there seems to be all too much
vindictiveness in the public posts which do the steering, and in particular,
the number of posts by Ian Jackson which stated "NO QUESTIONS HERE".  Mr.
Jackson made no attempt whatsoever to qualify his statement; he merely
stated, ever so rudely, that "questions" were not allowed.


   As many have so astutely surmised, THIS was the pivotal technicality
which prompted my pseudo-RFD.


   As has been suggested by quite a few people, a more appropriate way to
do this is politely and discretely through private email.  If you are among
those who feel it is more effective to do this publicly, then by all means
it should be done in a polite and civil manner, not with vicious and brutal
righteous indignation.

   All that is accomplished by brutally attacking someone in this manner
is to provoke anger and resentment and I felt compelled to reflect that
anger back upon those that originally generated it.  If this be childish
then so be it; but, it has been my experience that bold accusations of 
immaturity are only brought about by those who are uncertain of their own.

   I, of course, have absolutely no intention of calling a vote on this
matter.  I only wanted to draw attention to the fact that righteousness
can be very very offensive.  In this I feel I have succeeded.  Yes, I too
was self-righteous in posting the RFD, but that was my conscious intention
(not to seriously propose removal, but to provoke a certain response through
the use of conscious and deliberate "assholedness" aimed at a particular few).
You might say that I wanted to give them a dose of their own medicine and I
assumed a removal RFD would be just the thing to do it.  In retrospect I see
that this was wrong and for this I, again, apologize.

   There have been some who have speculated that I was maybe a disgruntled
opponent to the creation of comp.os.linux.development; let me state, for the
record, that this is the furthest from the truth.  Unlike some, my life does
not revolve around the existence or non-existence of a USENET newsgroup but
I do avidly read and enjoy USENET (and have been doing so for many years).  To
clear this up let me say that I voted FOR the creation of ALL of the new Linux
newsgroups (save c.o.l.help:  I am one of those who believe that if someone
really wants help, he wouldn't post to a help group because he would feel that
anyone who could really help him would not read the "newbie" help group).  But,
I digress...

   Those who contribute to the development of Linux have worked very hard
to produce what I believe is the best unix available for the Intel platform
and I tip my hat to them (I only wish that I too had enough time to be more
active in Linux development, but alas, I don't).  I firmly believe that these
people deserve a newsgroup in which to discuss the development of Linux
without having to weed through the very low signal to noise ratio that was
prevalent on comp.os.linux (before the split).  I also understand that it is
very difficult to get people to understand where to post their newbie
questions but I really don't think that vicious public attacks are the answer.

   All that I ask in return is that people be a little more polite.  I will
admit that my RFD was not polite and, again, for that I apologize.  I
understand that my reaction was exceptionally out of line but, unfortunately,
many times anger begets anger.

   Once again I apologize for offending anyone.  I guess I'm just an old man
who just gets tired of seeing innocent people publicly and brutally attacked
for making naive mistakes.  For this I humblely ask your forgiveness.  All
I really want is for c.o.l.* groups to be productive forums that promote the
advancement of Linux and not a haven for self-righteous bullies.

Let's all be happy hackers,
Tim

-- 

===========================================================================
T i m   P e o p l e s                            RazorByte Software Systems
                                          On The Cutting Edge of Technology
                                                      tep@rzrbyte.fay.ar.us


------------------------------

From: michael@utex.rni.sub.org (Michael Utech)
Subject: books about [34]86 assembler programming?
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 19:41:11 GMT

All i found was a book about MS-Assembler, not quite what i'm
looking for.

Thank you!


-- 
Michael Utech, Max-Planck-Str.26, 69519 Viernheim, Germany
email: michael@utex.rni.sub.org, fm04@rummelplatz.uni-mannheim.de
phone: +49 6204 {4031 (home), 65929 (work), 740309 (data)}

------------------------------

From: remco@hip-hop.suvl.ca.us (Remco Treffkorn)
Subject: Re: NO QUESTIONS HERE PLEASE / RTF FAQ (Re: -m486 doing nothing?)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 07:05:33 GMT

Stefan Lukka (slukka@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
: In article <CEo1tE.K3t@freenet.carleton.ca> ag010@Freenet.carleton.ca (Mark Swanson) writes:
: >
: >What Ian said was correct.  This IS the development channel as well... like Ian said.
: >Also, I found your rebuttle childish.

: More childish than calling someone who simply raised a
: development-related issue "Idiot who knows no netiquette"? Read
                                                             ^^^^
: Jackason's post carefully. Such an unprovoked attack is simply
                  ^^^^^^^^^
: unacceptable, and should not be condoned.

: Stefan J Lukka /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Neither the word 'idiot' nor 'netiquette' can be found in Ians post.
That you have to put 'em there just to make a point shows that you are
walking on thin ice. Besides, your outburst as defender of the week would
be a bit more credible if you would not resort to four letter words.
I lost the last bit of respect for you when I found that fake reply-to
address in the header. You seem to be one of those 'write only' people
on the net. People like you bounce checks and cheat on theire income
tax :-)

Remco
-- 

Remco Treffkorn, DC2XT
remco@hip-hop.suvl.ca.us   <<-- REAL reply address !!
(408) 685-1201

------------------------------

From: eric@tantalus.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Youngdale)
Subject: Re: coff, elf enough to run comapps?
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 12:15:25 GMT

In article <1993Oct11.110807.7102@utex.rni.sub.org> michael@utex.rni.sub.org (Michael Utech) writes:
>I understand that COFF and ELF are object file formats. I opened a
>nutshell and read that this (coff) is not limited to intel
>platforms. So i wonder whether having coff and/or elf support is
>enough to run binaries compiled for eg. SCO, ISC Unices? How about
>system calls, is their definition also covered by the object file
>format? Will it be possible to run all (or at least majority of) SCO
>binaries when coff support will be finished (or beta, gamma, ...)  for
>Linux?

        The goal is to be able to directly run SCO format binaries.  The COFF
loader is more or less done, but some work is still needed on the IBCS2 syscall
emulation.  I really have no idea if when it will be finished.  Obviously the
idea is to be able to directly run some of the popular commercial SCO binaries.

        The ELF stuff really has two purposes.  One is to be able to directly
run linux compiled and linked ELF binaries (for which the tools are just
becoming available), and the second goal is to be able to directly run SVr4
style binaries.  Much of the syscall translation is done via a special shared
library.  This works for some simple programs, but there is missing emulation
for some functions.  I really need to get back to this soon, because some of
the problems that exist should not be that hard to correct.


-Eric
-- 
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep.  But I have promises to keep,
and lines to code before I sleep, and lines to code before I sleep."

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.unix.programmer
From: rlister@megatest.com (Robert Lister)
Subject: Re: setitimer bug ?
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 04:52:20 GMT

What is the fatal flaw of sighold()/sigrelse()?

- Bob Lister (rlister@megatest.com)

From article <1993Oct10.210805.6271@kf8nh.wariat.org>, by bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery):
> In article <299eui$a0n@mail.fwi.uva.nl> casper@fwi.uva.nl (Casper H.S. Dik) writes:
>>Of course, other interface designs didn't do to well either.
>>(The sigset/sighold/sigrelse interface as found in SysV has
>>a fatal flaw that makes sighold()/sigrelse() pairs unusable).
> 
> Guess what?  System V took that from 4.1BSD.  Of course, one would think that
> they'd have realized there was a reason it changed again in 4.2... :-)
> 
> ++Brandon
> -- 
> Brandon S. Allbery       kf8nh@kf8nh.ampr.org          bsa@kf8nh.wariat.org
> "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years
> of careful development."  ---dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca

------------------------------

From: hhanemaa@cs.ruu.nl (Harm Hanemaaijer)
Subject: Re: Page fault
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 13:11:55 GMT

In <1993Oct8.092506.20032@kullmar.se> pand@kullmar.se (Peter Andersson) writes:

>gt8134b@prism.gatech.EDU (Howlin' Bob) writes:
>
>>In <1993Oct6.233556.4030@kullmar.se> pand@kullmar.se (Peter Andersson) writes:
>
>>>  I'm currently writing a program that needs the page fault
>>>  handler (SIGSYSV) to obtain some speed. But the program needs
>
>>Okay, that's strike one.  SIGSEGV is the "Segmentation Violation"
>>signal, meaning you poked your nose where it doesn't belong.
>Not necessarily, I use the mmap() function to map a page of
>memory to another place and then I sets the R/W protection it.
>What I need is to let my program handle the causing
>SIGSEGV as this:
>1 - change the protection of the page to allow read & write
>2 - single step the instruction who caused the SIGSEGV
>3 - change the protection back
>Got any idea how to handle this?

Ignoring the question of whether it is a good idea to trap SIGSEGV's like
that, it *is* possible, and it may even be useful in some limited fashion.

I remember I did a little experimenting with dynamic SVGA bank switching
some time ago (pl7 time frame), and it worked, although only in a very 
restricted way. The signal handler depended on the address where the page
fault occured being in a certain position in the stack frame of the handler,
which was accessed with dummy parameters (I think it depended on using a fixed
asm address register in the code that could invoke it). A later kernel
announcement said that the stack frame will not change in future kernels, so
that programs that depend on it keep working. 

It was pretty slow, on the order of 1000 faults per second. I think it was
using mmap and munmap on a malloced buffer. The offending instruction was 
automatically reexecuted after leaving the handler, or so it seemed.

hhanemaa@cs.ruu.nl


------------------------------

From: Andrej.Bauer@ijs.si (Andrej Bauer)
Subject: Linux System Administration Tools
Date: 12 Oct 93 16:34:29 +0100

Dear Developers,

is there anybody working on System Administration Tools for Linux?
I think it would be nice to have an intelligent and easy-to-use
program for Linux's System Administration (something like SAM for HP-UX,
only more intelligent -- it should be very very smart).

Politically it would be a very good thing to do, because it would
boost the number of Linux users. From my experience I can say that
one of the main reasons why people don't install Linux is the fact
that it still takes quite some knowledge of Unix before everything
starts working.

If anybody knows of a project or people who are working on this,
please tell me. If such a project does not exist yet, anybody
who is interested is welcome to contact me.

How do I find what is being developed for Linux, anyway?

Andrej

===================
Andrej.Bauer@IJS.si
===================

------------------------------

From: gareth@gblinux.demon.co.uk (Gareth Bult)
Subject: >Re: CMS Jumbo (QIC 40/80) Driver Status
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 23:14:21 GMT

On Mon, 11 Oct 93 12:18:55 GMT;                                             
----Patrick Sweeney (sweeney@$TIN_DOMAIN) said:                             
>                                                                           
>There is currently a driver written by Bas Laarhoven on tsx-11.mit.edu     
>[18.172.1.2]. The driver is in /pub/linux/ALPHA/QIC-80/ftape-0.9.6.tar.gz. 
>I dont have a Colorado drive but supposedly it works. I do have an Archive 
>drive and it seems to work fine for it. You might also want to join the    
>QIC-80 tape mailing list. To join any of the mailing lists, send mail to   
>linux-activists-request@niksula.hut.fi. It will auto reply with help       
>on using the mail-server.                                                  
>                                                                           
This driver is for Linux?                                                   
I downloaded it and it didn't come close to compiling.                      
It was indicated that this source was for a MACH system and COULD be        
adapted for Linux. Indeed someone else has attempted it, you will see an    
lftape.... floating around as well.                                         
                                                                            
This driver is documented to support COLORADO and MOUNTAIN, not archive...  
Which of us is going wrong...?
I tried ftape 0.96 and now 1.02, I'm looking at the 1.02 source now...

Confused.
Gareth.
PS. My driver SHOULD be finished by the weekend.                            
                                                                            
                                                                            
                                                                            

------------------------------

From: NEWCOMBE@AA.csc.Peachnet.EDU ("Dan Newcombe" )
Subject: Bug (?) in the XT disk code...
Date: 12 Oct 1993 11:21:15 -0500

[is it development - I think so...it's the kernel.]

I noticed this yesterday.  On VC #1, I had done
/xt/man# cp -R /usr/man/* .
and on VC #2 I had done
/xt/tab# cp -R /user/guitar/tab/* .

Purpose: to move all of these seldom used small text files to the SLOW drive.
The man pages copied fine, but during the tab, I started to get write errors
on the drive, and I could not get any response from the system (RESET!!!:(
When I looked, the drive was only 25% full.  Odd.  So I manually copied the
rest of the tab subdirs over - no problem.

The second oddity was when I did
/xt/xman# cp -R /usr/X386/man/* .
The actual cp command went fine, but right after that I "sync"ed so that
I could shutdown, and it started going nuts - it sounded like it was
writing and writing and writing... and then I started to get the write errors
again.  (RESET!!! :(
I then used the same command as above to recopy them over, but I let the
kernel do the writes of what was in the buffers instead of the sync command.
No problem.

I guess this is more of an FYI type of thing.

    -Dan
--
Daniel A. Newcombe                                  Clayton State College
Computing Services                                  Morrow, GA 30260
E-Mail Address: newcombe@aa.csc.peachnet.edu        (404)-961-3421
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-  You kill three people, they call you a murderer.  You kill millions, they
   call you a conqueror.  Go figure.
                                    John Lithgow, _Cliffhanger_

------------------------------

From: jonb@specialix.com (Jon Brawn)
Subject: Re: [PATCH] BogoBoost speedup for Linux
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:10:14 GMT

root@fusion.cuc.ab.ca (Superuser) writes:

>My suggestion in regards to this patch are try it!  Then, if your system craps
>out with parity errors, get rid of it.  It can't do any harm and if it works,
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>can only increase your system performance..

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!

        YES this patch CAN do harm! If your system dies because of this
        patch allowing the memory refresh to fail, then you could scramble
        your filesystems!

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!

        EITHER backup your disks first, or be prepared to re-install if
        necessary.

        Jon.

PS:
        I got a hulluva performance increase out of this patch with no parity
        problems or other errors, however, your mileage may vary.

>Regards,
>c4
>-- 
>Christopher Lau- "Mr. Unix"    |     /       Fusion: Playing With Fire!
>StarBright Research            |    / /      H + H -> He + 24 MeV
>            --                 |   /_/_/_    "Bring back Trudeau!"
>root,lauc@fusion.cuc.ab.ca     |____________ "This space for rent"

------------------------------

From: slukka@nyx.cs.du.edu (Stefan Lukka)
Subject: Re: NO QUESTIONS HERE PLEASE / RTF FAQ (Re: -m486 doing nothing?)
Reply-To: Do not reply </dev/null@nyx.cs.du.edu>
Date: 12 Oct 93 16:47:57 GMT

In article <1993Oct12.070533.16797@hip-hop.suvl.ca.us> remco@hip-hop.suvl.ca.us (Remco Treffkorn) writes:
>Stefan Lukka (slukka@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
>
>: More childish than calling someone who simply raised a
>: development-related issue "Idiot who knows no netiquette"? Read
>                                                             ^^^^
>: Jackason's post carefully. Such an unprovoked attack is simply
>                  ^^^^^^^^^
>: unacceptable, and should not be condoned.
>
>
>Neither the word 'idiot' nor 'netiquette' can be found in Ians post.
>That you have to put 'em there just to make a point shows that you are
>walking on thin ice. Besides, your outburst as defender of the week would
>be a bit more credible if you would not resort to four letter words.
>I lost the last bit of respect for you when I found that fake reply-to
>address in the header. You seem to be one of those 'write only' people
>on the net. People like you bounce checks and cheat on theire income
>tax :-)
>

I use quotes only for exact-word citations. You must be blind. The
irony is that you underlined "carefully". Here is some of his post,
use the message ID to look the article up if you don't trust me.

+----------
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development
From: iwj10@cus.cam.ac.uk (Ian Jackson)
Subject: NO QUESTIONS HERE PLEASE / RTF FAQ (Re: -m486 doing nothing?)
Message-ID: <1993Oct9.161323.3288.chiark.ijackson@nyx.cs.du.edu>
Followup-To: alt.flame
Summary: Grrrr.
Originator: iwj10@bootes.cus.cam.ac.uk
Keywords: Idiot who knows no netiquette
Sender: news@infodev.cam.ac.uk (USENET news)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bootes.cus.cam.ac.uk
Organization: Linux Unlimited
References: <CEKnos.7Hy@sparc15.cs.cuhk.hk>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1993 16:13:23 GMT
Lines: 36
+----------

Now don't you feel stupid? As for my Reply-To header, I have the right
not to bothered, don't I? It doesn't prevent you from sending me mail,
but it's a hint that I won't read personal replies in this subject, so
get the hint, will ya? The accusations at the end of your article are
completely uncalled for, and you could be liable for defaming my
character.


Stefan J Lukka


------------------------------


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