TELECOM Digest Tue, 3 Jul 90 23:04:06 CDT Volume 10 : Issue 467 Inside This Issue: Moderator: Patrick A. Townson Mitch Kapor and "Sun Devil" [Emmanuel Goldstein] Re: Who is John Galt? [Erik Naggum] Recessional: That's All, Folks! [TELECOM Moderator] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Jul 90 00:00:00 gmt From: dunike!isis!well!emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein) Subject: Mitch Kapor and "Sun Devil" It's real disturbing to read the comments that have been posted recently on TELECOM Digest concerning Operation Sun Devil and Mitch Kapor's involvement. While I think the moderator has been chastised sufficiently, there are still a few remarks I want to make. First of all, I understand the point he was trying to get across. But I think he shot from the hip without rationalizing his point first, thereby leaving many of us in a kind of stunned silence. If I understand it correctly, the argument is: Kapor says he wants to help people that the Moderator believes are thieves. Therefore, using that logic, it's okay to steal from Kapor. Well, I don't agree. Obviously, Kapor DOESN'T believe these people are criminals. Even if one or two of them ARE criminals, he is concerned with all of the innocent bystanders that are being victimized here. And make no mistake about that - there are many innocent bystanders here. I've spoken to quite a few of them. Steve Jackson, Craig Neidorf, the friends and families of people who've had armed agents of the federal government storm into their homes and offices. It's a very frightening scenario - one that I've been through myself. And when it happens there are permanent scars and a fear that never quite leaves. For drug dealers, murderers, hardened criminals, it's an acceptable price in my view. But a 14 year old kid who doesn't know when to stop exploring a computer system? Let's get real. Do we really want to mess up someone's life just to send a message? I've been a hacker for a good part of my life. Years ago, I was what you would call an "active" hacker, that is, I wandered about on computer systems and explored. Throughout it all, I knew it would be wrong to mess up data or do something that would cause harm to a system. I was taught to respect tangible objects; extending that to encompass intangible objects was not very hard to do. And most, if not all, of the people I explored with felt the same way. Nobody sold their knowledge. The only profit we got was an education that far surpassed any computer class or manual. Eventually, though, I was caught. But fortunately for me, the witch-hunt mentality hadn't caught on yet. I cooperated with the authorities, explained how the systems I used were flawed, and proved that there was no harm done. I had to pay for the computer time I used and if I stayed out of trouble, I would have no criminal record. They didn't crush my spirit. And the computers I used became more secure. Except for the fear and intimidation that occurred during my series of raids, I think I was dealt with fairly. Now I publish a hacker magazine. And in a way, it's an extension of that experience. The hackers are able to learn all about many different computer and phone systems. And those running the systems, IF THEY ARE SMART, listen to what is being said and learn valuable lessons before it's too late. Because sooner or later, someone will figure out a way to get in. And you'd better hope it's a hacker who can help you figure out ways to improve the system and not an ex-employee with a monumental grudge. In all fairness, I've been hacked myself. Someone figured out a way to break the code for my answering machine once. Sure, I was angry -- at the company. They had no conception of what security was. I bought a new machine from a different company, but not before letting a lot of people know EXACTLY what happened. And I've had people figure out my calling card numbers. This gave me firsthand knowledge of the ineptitude of the phone companies. And I used to think they understood their own field! My point is: you're only a victim if you refuse to learn. If I do something stupid like empty my china cabinet on the front lawn and leave it there for three weeks, I don't think many people will feel sympathetic if it doesn't quite work out. And I don't think we should be sympathetic towards companies and organizations that obviously don't know the first thing about security and very often are entrusted with important data. The oldest hacker analogy is the walking-in-through-the-front- door-and-rummaging-through-my-personal-belongings one. I believe the Moderator recently asked a critic if he would leave his door unlocked so he could drop in and rummage. The one fact that always seems to be missed with this analogy is that an individual's belongings are just not interesting to someone who simply wants to learn. But they ARE interesting to someone who wants to steal. A big corporation's computer system is not interesting to someone who wants to steal, UNLESS they have very specific knowledge as to how to do this (which eliminates the hacker aspect). But that system is a treasure trove for those interested in LEARNING. To those that insist on using this old analogy, I say at least be consistent. You wouldn't threaten somebody with 30 years in jail for taking something from a house. What's especially ironic is that your personal belongings are probably much more secure than the data in the nation's largest computer systems! When you refer to hacking as "burglary and theft", as the Moderator frequently does, it becomes easy to think of these people as hardened criminals. But it's just not the case. I don't know any burglars or thieves, yet I hang out with an awful lot of hackers. It serves a definite purpose to blur the distinction, just as pro-democracy demonstrators are referred to as rioters by nervous leaders. Those who have staked a claim in the industry fear that the hackers will reveal vulnerabilities in their systems that they would just as soon forget about. It would have been very easy for Mitch Kapor to join the bandwagon on this. The fact that he didn't tells me something about his character. And he's not the only one. Since we published what was, to the best of my knowledge, the first pro-hacker article on all of these raids, we've been startled by the intensity of the feedback we've gotten. A lot of people are angry, upset, and frightened by what the Secret Service is doing. They're speaking out and communicating their outrage to other people who we could never have reached. And they've apparently had these feelings for some time. Is this the anti-government bias our Moderator accused another writer of harboring? Hardly. This is America at its finest. Emmanuel Goldstein Editor, 2600 Magazine - The Hacker Quarterly emmanuel@well.sf.ca.us po box 752, middle island, ny 11953 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 1990 17:02:37 +0200 From: Erik Naggum Subject: Re: Who is John Galt? In TELECOM Digest V10 #465, peter da silva , writes: > John Galt is a sort of Buckminster Fuller on cocaine: an eccentric > engineer who mixes philosophy and engineering in equal doses ... but > instead of a sort of proto new-age without the flakiness, Galt's > philosophy is a aggressive mix of social darwinism and sociobiology. To be fair, the philosophy has a polarizing effect on people. Some hate it, some love it. Those who have seen it, seldom choose anything in between. The above description is typical of the way people will describe it. Keep the intensity and change the attitude, and you have the other camp. > Oh yes, he's also only a character in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged", a > political statement thinly disguised as fiction. Atlas Shrugged was first published in 1957, and still sells briskly. Many people enjoy it for its fictional qualities. A huge number of people have heard about it, but only second-hand like the above from Peter, or second-hand from someone who loves it, but that usually results in reading it. Beware of the followers. There is a strong religious element in the "official" following, almost cult-like. There are also reasonable people who hold this philosophy, but they're much less likely to be missionaries. There are also some professional philosophers working with it. [Erik Naggum] [Moderator's Note: I'd like you to know that in 1957, when I was a second year student in high school, our debate class invited Ayn Rand to speak at a school assembly about her new book, and she accepted our invitation. Atlas Shrugged had just gone into print, and she was on the circuit promoting it. I introduced her, and afterward, our debate teacher Arthur Erickson and I took her to dinner before taking her back to the airport. I remember to this day sitting in the restaurant across from her, with her long cigarette holder as she seemed to stare straight through me. I smoked cigarettes also, since it was glamorous, and a sign of sophistication. Arthur praised me as the teacher's (his) pet, and Ms. Rand said, "You are such a smart young man! You are too smart to believe in Gott ..." She autographed my copy of her books (I also had a copy of The Fountainhead with me). PT] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 90 20:27:43 CDT From: TELECOM Moderator Subject: Recessional: That's All, Folks! My thanks to Emmanuel Goldstein for his interesting message to the group today. It is worth some thought, particularly on Independence Day. And Erik Naggum's comments are also appropriate today. As soon as this Digest is in the mail and out to the net, I am leaving town, to return sometime early Sunday, July 8. We will be traveling down to southeastern Kansas, in the Coffeyville and Independence, KS area to be exact. But the business there will take just a couple days at most, and we will be heading back this way by car sometime late in the day Saturday, I suppose. Do have a pleasant and happy Independence Day holiday, and be certain to shoot your firecrackers in a safe and discrete way. *Please DO NOT send any messages to comp.dcom.telecom until the weekend.* Thanks. Patrick Townson TELECOM Moderator ------------------------------ End of TELECOM Digest V10 #467 ****************************** ----- Downloaded From P-80 International Information Systems 304-744-2253