Date: 21 Jun 92 19:49:14 EDT From: Gordon Meyer <72307.1502@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: File 2--EFF on GEnie's RoundTable ______________________________________________________ | | | The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable |______ |______________________________________________________| | | Sysops' GE Mail: PF$ RTC Sunday 9pm EDT: MOVE 545;2 |______ |___________________________________________________________| | | News, Current Events, Government, Societal Issues, Nonprofits | |________________________________________________________________| __________________________________________________________________ | Rights & responsibilities, government, politics, minority civil |_ | rights, volunteerism, nonprofit management, the media, the | | | environment, international issues, gay/lesbian/bisexual issues, | | | women & men, parenting, youth organizations and more! | | |__________________________________________________________________| | |__________________________________________________________________| ________ PF$ PF*NPC Sysops _____________ | |_ | Weekly RTC: |_ | The | | SHERMAN Tom Sherman | 9pm Eastern | | | PF*NPC | | SCOTT Scott Reed | on Sundays! | | | Staff: | | CHERNOFF Paul Chernoff | Type M545;2 | | |________| | GRAFFITI Ric Helton |_____________| | |________| SHERRY Sherry |_____________| Real-time Conference: Free Speech Online with Jerry Berman (May 31, 1992) ==================================================================== (C) 1992 by GEnie (R) and Public Forum*NonProfit Connection This file may be distributed only in its entirety and with this notice intact. Who gets to control the content of electronic communication and the telephone system through which it travels? Is the First Amendment well-served by current public policy and legislation? On May 31, at 9 pm ET, Jerry Berman, formerly chief legislative counsel for the ACLU, joined us in RealTime Conference to talk about electronic free speech. Founder of the ACLU Privacy and Technology Project, Jerry currently directs the Washington, DC, office of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Don't miss lively discussion of Science, Technology and Society in bulletin board category 7, and check out the files on technology and society in our library. See Cat 7/Topic 1 for details. -=-=-=-=- An electronic meeting place for friends, family and national "town meetings," GEnie is an international online computer network for information, education and entertainment. For under $5.00/month, GEnie offers over 50 special interest bulletin boards and unlimited electronic mail at no extra charge during evenings, weekends and holidays. GEnie is offered by GE Information Services, a division of General Electric Company. In the Public Forum*NonProfit Connection, thousands of people every day discuss politics and a wide range of social and nonprofit issues. A neutral arena for all points of view, the PF*NPC is presented by Public Interest Media, a nonprofit organization devoted to empowering people through the socially productive use of information and communication technology. For more information about GEnie or the Public Forum, call 1-800-638-9636 or send electronic mail to tsherman@igc.org. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH. At the U#= prompt, type XTX88367,GENIE . The system will prompt you for information. __________________________________________________________ -=(( The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable ))=- -==((( GEnie Page 545 - Keywords PF or NPC )))==- -=((__________________________________________________________))=- <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> Welcome to the last in this month's series of realtime conferences on Technology and Society! These RTCs raise important issues for the future. You'll find these issues discussed in our bulletin board, especially in Category 7, and in many excellent files in the Public Forum library. Before we get started, a word about the process: So that everyone gets a turn at the beginning, only our guests and people asking questions will be able to talk. When you have a question, type /RAI to raise your hand. I'll call on you in order. Please type your question, but DON'T hit to send it. When you're called on, THEN hit to send your question quickly. It's good to use three periods if you have more to say and to put GA for "go ahead" at the end of a final phrase. And now it's our pleasure to introduce tonight's special guests: Jerry Berman was chief legislative counsel for the ACLU and founded its Privacy and Technology Project. He now directs the Washington D.C. office of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and is joined here tonight by his EFF colleague Sheri Steele. They're here to talk with you about general issues of free speech online. For example: Who gets to control the content of electronic communication and the telephone system through which it travels? Is the First Amendment well-served by current public policy and legislation? I also want to announce that EFF and Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility are both getting GEnie accounts so that they can participate in discussions like this in the BB and provide information in our file library Welcome, Jerry and Shari! Would you like to make any introductory remarks? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Good to be here! Shari and I are at EFF Washington Office on Capitol Hill in D.C. so we're inside the beltway, trying to protect civil liberties for cyberspace. Does anyone have any questions? <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> Please type /RAI if you have a question and I'll call on you. Jerry, maybe you'd like to add a few words about the EFF server? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> EFF is a new advocacy organization that is trying to achieve the democratic potential of new technology. We opened our Washington Office in January of this year (EFF started a year before)... We are working on a range of civil liberties issues. For example, opposing the FBI's efforts to control digital telephone technology to make wiretapping easier. We are trying to get Congress, the FCC and the states to make this telephone network digital to make all of this democracy we are engaged in easier and less savage. <[Randy] R.DYKHUIS> Does the EFF work with e-mail systems inside companies or does it focus exclusively on "public" networks like GEnie? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> We consider GENIE a "private" network even though it is open to the "public." On the other hand, the telephone network is a public regulated network. Do you get the distinction? <[Randy] R.DYKHUIS> Yes, I understand. <[gene] G.STOVER> In our current Information Revolution, like in the Industrial Revolution, rights and other legal issues are being juggled and rearranged. A lot of freedoms and privileges are at stake. Are you optimistic about the outcome? Will future generations thank us for the world we are creating? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> A big issue in the electronic age is insuring that the public network carries all speech and does not censor. Like telephone calls. It is not clear that this is the current regime... I am optimistic if we can join together to make sure rights are guaranteed and extended in cyberspace or the electronic age. <[Ric] GRAFFITI> Thanks for coming tonight! We archive all of the EFFector online issues here in the public forum library, and I have read a lot about Operation Sun Devil. Where does that stand, now? What is the EFF doing? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> We have brought a civil suit against the government and the case is in currently in the discovery phase in Texas. It'll take time, but we hope to establish new privacy rights for bulletin board users. <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> Jerry, you might say a few words to describe Sun Devil for those who don't know about it. <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Lots of people know that the Secret service and FBI conducted a sweeping and overbroad search looking for suspected computer hackers. We need to focus, even tonight, on other pressing issues that confront us. For example, Are we going to continue to let the government control encryption so that we can never have real privacy either against law enforcement agencies or against others who want to violate ojur communication privacy. <[Ric] GRAFFITI> One of the most disturbing aspects of Sun Devil was the confiscation of private property - computers and related equipment and supplies - without charges being brought OR the return of the stuff. They can easily silence us, apparently, by taking away our modems and terminals. What can be done? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> We have to establish new investigative law enforcement warrant requirements for computer crime investigations where First amendment rights may be involved. There are precedents... The FBI must use special procedures to conduct undercover operations when it may be targeted against a newspaper or university or political group to protect against interfering with free speech... Congress almost passed legislation after Watergate to limit in statute how the FBI investigates political groups. Guidelines do exist, even though the bill did not pass... We have to do the same for BBS type investigations. <[Branch] H.HAINES3> What would probably be your biggest concern regarding current electronic freedom, or the biggest threat you are aware of? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> We need to insure that this telephone network that GEnie is on MUST carry all speech, and not be able to discriminate on the basis of content. Telephone companies are not carrying certain political "900" number accounts because they think they don't have to carry all services just like telephone calls. This could come to serve as a precedent for not carrying a controversial BBS service. These rules need to be worked out in law now before the Jesse Helms' of the world get into this technology when it is easier and see what's going on... <[Branch] H.HAINES3> I hear a lot of reports that *P* (Tom PF knows this term I'm sure) is very restrictive about what can be said by its users. Would that be part of the problem you describe? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Good question. Prodigy is a private service. It is not big enough to be regulated like a public institution. So they can discriminate and make editorial decisions not to carry speech. We think this is a misguided policy and have told Prodigy so publically and privately. However, we want Prodigy to have rights. We think the best answer is to make the telephone network better so there can be many Prodigy's and similar services and make it easier for everyone to use a GEnie or some other provider that has a more open policy. We need to make the telephone network digital now. We can do this well before we get to fiber optics and other 21st century technologies. But it will require political action. It is EFF's highest priority now. <[gene] G.STOVER> Are BBS operators currently held responsible for the information on their BBSes? Should they be held responsible? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> It depends. There is very little case law. But if a BBS has a forum like this one open to all, it should not be liable if, for example, I libel one of you or commit a crime on line... But today, we are not sure what responsibilities BBSs have. Some case law suggests that it is limited and that a BBS is like a newsstand, and newsstand operators don't have to know everything in every mag or book on the stand. <[gene] G.STOVER> So if someone posts something illegal on a BBS and is prosecuted, is the sysop prosecuted, too? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> It could be charged. The operator would argue that it is not reasonable under the circumstances to say it knew of or should have known the crime was being committed. This will be a factual issue. The legal issue is to get the Courts or the Congress to give BBS operators a lot of freedom to err or not to censor. Like a newspaper is not liable to public figures for defamation unless it acts recklessly in disregard of the truth. <[Charlie] VASSILOPOULO> How large is the movement in Washington to legislate morality in general and specifically in electronic media, and who spearheads that movement? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Today, all sides--but especially the right--want to legislate one kind of morality or another. Our job is to make sure it is not inconsistent with the constitution when electronic technology is involved. We have had Congress several years ago try to outlaw certain gay BBS systems because of possible child pornography. Such bills will come up again when this technology is more widely used. You can be sure that the morality gang in Congress will try to regulate adult, political BBSs when they are really in a majority of American homes. And as you know, this is not far off. We need to establish the rules now before we have Congress looking at very controversial siutuations with no rules in mind, or a precedent. <[Darla] KUBY> Won't there be sort of a 'conflict of interest' with you having a free account on GEnie? I mean, would Compuserve give you a free account? Or Prodigy? <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> Let me step in here. EFF is not getting a free account; they're paying just like everyone else except that we're giving them free access to the Public Forum because they are helping with the discussion and library files. <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Darla, we are paying. <[Darla] KUBY> Would you accept the same from Compuserve or Prodigy? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Of course, we would love to pay them also. We are on Compuserve and we have a Prodigy account. What, by the way, is the conflict if we had a free account--which we don't? <[Connie] C.RIFENBURG> A question recently came up on one of the boards concerning reposting of a deleted post. The original poster had deleted a post. It was captured by another person in a buffer and reposted to the BBS. People said it was against copyright laws...? Who "owns" the BB post once posted? <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> Connie, I'm afraid you're asking a question that has partly to do with GEnie rules. But Jerry can certainly answer the general question <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Again, it depends. I dont think it is covered by copyright law unless the posting was from, say, a book or magazine and wasmnore than fair use. <[Connie] C.RIFENBURG> Then copyright is only book or magazine? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> No. But when I send this message I do not expect to be covered by copyright even though I may say something very original. I could I guess put a THIS IS COPYRIGHTED here. But it would be difficult to enforce... Copyright does apply to more than books or magazines, however, like film, etc. <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> Jerry, I think your comment conflicts with those of another RTC guest, Gerry Elman, Esq. But that's why we have courts, I guess :) <[Ric] GRAFFITI> It may be too fine a distinction, but all online systems are actually store & forward messaging systems (voice mail & pager systems, too), instead of direct communications channels like the phone lines. That seems to make the BBS or online service a publisher, by re-broadcasting (or narrowcasting, to one person) the messages as if it had originated the message, even though system operators had nothing to do with the content. That seems to be where confusion over liability for defamation and criminal conduct occurs. Any comment? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Yes. Analogies break down but the store and forward does not always mean the ability to edit or know of the contents in such a way as to be liable. For example, under current law, a service that offers E-mail to its users violates the law if it reads a stored message (email) before it is forwarded or while it is stored. In fact the FBI has to get a warrant from a court to get such a message. This is one of the issues in Steve Jackson case. Did they have a warrant for all the emial in Jackson's system? <[Ric] GRAFFITI> They got it, didn't they? :) Seriously, then, online and BBS systems are not liable for the contents of email? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> That is correct. Thus, one could shield a BBS from liability by encouraging anything controversial be carried as email between those who wanted to send and receive the messages. <[gene] G.STOVER> Do you think the proposed(?) partial deregulation to allow the telcos to produce TV is a good idea? Could this produce abuses like those with the old railroad tycoons? Comments? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Good question. The issue is whether a carrier (like the telcos) can also publish content and not discriminate against other information providers. There is good reason to worry, but did you know that while the telcos can't do cable TV yet over their lines, they NOW can do information services and compete with others? <[gene] G.STOVER> Where could I find more info on this? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Send Shari Steele E-Mail at Eff.org (ssteele@eff.org) <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> And you'll see the EFF GEnie address pretty soon! <[T.C.] WIDMO> What is the danger of public BBS messages being gathered by gov't, to suppress individual political action? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Not much right now. Since the Watergate scandals and Hoover revelations, government has not been collecting gobs of info from political groups. They used to gather everything using informants and wiretaps, etc.... also attend public meetings. Today, if a police officer joined this conference, we would have a hard time arguing that he or she could not. Does any one disagree? <[T.C.] WIDMO> Could they pressure co's with gov't contracts to forward to them anything questionable? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Sure they could. They could ask BBS services to give them transcripts of public forums like this and it would break no law. (Perhaps a contract between BBS and subscriber but NO LAW.) I just came in on this a short time ago so I may have missed this, but does an online service such as GEnie or Prodigy have a right to censor public messages on the BB's? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> The answer is Yes. For example, if GEnie did not want a DAVID DUKE conference it could turn Duke down. Or it could end the conference. GEnie is a private publisher and its BBS conferences are like letters to the editor in some respects. GEnie is not the government. We want GEnie to have the right to editorialize so that we all have similar rights to choose how we speek. We need a diversity of BBSs to cover political diversity. Does anyone disagree? <[Ric] GRAFFITI> I imagine you run into the misperception about public vs. private data networks often. However, moving on...... Could you comment on the FBI's "demand" to be let in and given free access to the plaintext of the digital phone network? Why did they publish editorials and go on TV with this request to massively re-engineer modern phone & data equipment? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Good question. The FBI is worried that fiber optic networks, services like Call-Forwarding, etc. will make it difficult for them to conduct lawful warrants. This is a real concern, but we do not believe the solution is to allow them backdoors to all networks or easy access to encryption keys. There are narrower solutions. They went on TV and radio because they are engaged in political persuasion to get the law changed in their favor. We are doing the same from the other side. CPSR, EFF, ACLU and industry are opposing this proposal. <[Ric] GRAFFITI> Is the day of the phone bug, wire tap and easy access to private communications coming to a close? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> No. Some of the technology is better for privacy but software changes can give law enforcement access to more info than ever. <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> Jerry, what would you suggest that people, who are concerned about free speech online, do to insure that corporate or government interests won't impose limitations? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> Citizens on the electronic frontier need to organize to protect their rights. Keeping informed--like here on GEnie--is a good step. Joining organizations like CPSR, EFF, and ACLU (I try to be catholic) also will help. We are trying to put together at EFF an advocacy organization that can make our voices heard on these issues. We are amping up our membership effort. We now already have 4 full professionals here in DC working on legal and policy issues involving technology, free speech, privacy, access to information, improving the telephone network, creating a BBS rights and responsibilities book, etc... <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> You said something about these issues being settled in the courts or in Congress. Which would you prefer? Is working through EFF, CPSR, ACLU etc the best way to influence the outcome? <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> I do not think we can solve large technology issues in the courts. It took the courts 40 years to figure out that wiretapping violated privacy. Bad cases, like national security threats, tend to make bad law... and this is not a liberal Supreme Court, is it? We need broader technology policy and that requires working out new relationships between converging technologies, like computers, telephones, cable, mass media... Congress and state legislatures are the appropriate forums. And we can have an influence and not let the courts do the elitist solution routine. <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> A perfect closing answer! Thanks to Jerry Berman and Shari Steele for joining us tonight, and thanks to the EFF for joining GEnie to improve our discussion of these crucial issues for the future. I also want to thank all the participants who asked great questions tonight and to encourage all those reading this transcript to join us! -----# Participants #----- <[Connie] C.RIFENBURG> <[gene] G.STOVER> <[Ric] GRAFFITI> <[Branch] H.HAINES3> <[Darla] KUBY> <[JERRY BERMAN] PRESS20> <[Randy] R.DYKHUIS> <[Tom PF*NPC] SHERMAN> <[Charlie] VASSILOPOULO> <[T.C.] WIDMO> | | This listing was generated by LRTC Version 1.00 | (C)opyright by Hartmut W. Malzahn, 1991. All rights reserved. | ______________________________________________________ | | | The Public Forum * NonProfit Connection RoundTable |______ |______________________________________________________| | | Sysops' GE Mail: PF$ RTC Sunday 9pm EDT: MOVE 545;2 |______ |___________________________________________________________| | | News, Current Events, Government, Societal Issues, Nonprofits | |________________________________________________________________| Downloaded From P-80 International Information Systems 304-744-2253