From: fsjdj1@acad3.alaska.edu Subject: Re: PHIL: VR--Are we really the first? Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1992 18:53:09 GMT Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks In article <1992Oct18.175509.29341@u.washington.edu>, coleman@rocky.CS.UCLA.EDU (Mike Coleman) writes: > to do so, and barring some catastrophe, it seems quite likely that someone > will run a convincing simulated reality within the next, say, million years. > "Convincing" meaning that one of us hooked into it by VR means would find it > indistinguishable from reality as we know it. > > The obvious next question is: Is there any scientific or philosophical reason > to think that we are not *in* such a simulation *now*?? > > Or, considered another way, if we will soon be able to create a convincing > artificial reality, and the entities within that reality do so as well, etc., > recursively, isn't it more *likely* that we're *not* the "base" case? (Finally! A real discussion!) I don't think you're the first to come up with this idea, but similar topics haven't been discussed in this group for some time now, so thanks for bringing it up! First of all, let me try to answer your second question first. Scientifically, I feel anyone would be hard pressed to say we are either in or not in a simulation now, because if it truly is, as you say, indistinguishable from reality then any tests that would normally prove or disprove something outside the simulation would hold true here. There's no slapping your face to see if you wake up if your dream-persona (or in this case VR-persona) feels the same slap. But what you're playing with here starts to crowd in on a lot of people's theological ideas. Could God be the big VR programmer in the sky? Looked at it in that sense, we could be running around in the "perfect" simulation: our ethereal bodies interfaced to biological hardware to give us physical sensory perception. Or, if you're more inclined to follow the reincarnation route, perhaps the interface isn't quite so perfect, and every time you "plug-in" you have to re-learn how to distinguish the sensory input and control the output, making childhood a believable part of the simulation (Some have theorized that though we all perceive the visible spectrum, our brains might process it slightly differently than others, and that the color I see as blue you see as my color green but have been taught to call it blue, and in the long run it really doesn't matter because it's blue to you; if our sensory input were suddenly changed--like becoming deaf or blind--we would learn to adjust but it takes time, and taking those changes an order of magnitude farther would also push the re-learning time envelope farther). To me, this scenario would make a lot of sense if outside the simulation we are still biological beings, because though I can imagine neural interfaces in the future I cannot imagine perfect ones, especially if everyone is running around in the perfect VR landscape. And lastly, if it really is a perfect simulation, then wouldn't it follow that simulated people would seem "perfect"? Wouldn't it be odd if the world myths about the gods running around with the humans were the creators of the VR world just trying it out, who later got tired of it and left but left it running. Or perhaps they realized what they had created and now it's The Great Experiment. Wouldn't the perfectly simulated people think their world were real (just as we do)? In fact, I should think they would find it more than real, because they most of all are bound by the simulation and can never unplug. > Finally, a couple of skeptical questions to close: > (1) Is this conjecture scientifically verifiable in any way? Not at all, unless this were an imperfect simluation. (Someone PLEASE respond if you feel otherwise.) > (2) If this conjecture is true, are there any practical ramifications for us? None at all. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Jack Johnson | The opinions expressed herein are Internet: FSJDJ1@acad3.alaska.edu | in no way related to any opinions Bitnet: FSJDJ1@ALASKA | held by anyone, real or imagined. -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- [MODERATOR'S NOTE: Having explored the vistas of this topic, we can now move on to more banal events, like the building of convincing VR that works here, now. Future philosophical discussions on the Am-I- dreaming-this-butterfly-or-is-the-butterfly-dreaming-me? variety should migrate to one of the philosophical or Eastern religion news- groups. Thanks. -- Bob Jacobson]