From alvalent@husc Fri Sep 11 18:46:31 1992 Subject: RL-L: GURPS Rules Status: RO I don't like the idea. Although I applaud GURPS horror and think it should be a staple for Ravenloft GMs, the GURPS system has a lot of dice rolling. Almost too much for the atmosphere of Ravenloft in my opinion. It might beat AD&D for many other campagin settings, but low dice content and low computation is key for Ravenloft. Lee ------------------------------------- From alvalent@husc Mon Sep 14 16:10:39 1992 Subject: RL-L: Ghostly forms of attack Shawn Witzki came up with the all time # one list of haunted house badness a while back for the House of Lament. Personally, I'd never use all of that, 'cause it's so good, it'd be hard to top. Lord Godefroy would look like a second rate clown after the House, and Staunton Bluffs would be a trip to Disney. Still, I've just remembered one scene from Tomb of Horrors that could be cool. A hall lined with shields and crossed swords. The things fly through the air with only speed and nimbleness, ginsuing our PCs. How do you attack a sword?! Argh! Run away! For those of us who don't have all of your sources, Shawn, can you post a synopsis of what Steel Shadows and Carpet Snakes do (although I already have a good idea). Don't smash copyright laws unless you're feeling adventurous, but a synopsis would be in order. Furthermore, as a suggestion to Bruce Nesmith, when I give him a jingle in the fall, how about a Rogue's Gallery type thing. That includes the stats of all the Dark Lords we've only heard about. Maybe the format should be like the cards in the boxed set, or maybe it should be like Who's Wo oops WHo's Who in the DC Universe, the new version, with nifty art on stock card, with 3 ring binder holes. How about that? Heck it may be in the Forbidden... set, but for now, who knows? Keep those cards and letters coming, Fright Fans. Lee Valentine ------------------------------------- From Z_COOLIDGEJS@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU Tue Sep 15 15:15:42 1992 Subject: RL-L: Unlife in the City >From Steve: >I thought that this was a neat idea, but that for a city to exist in the >mists it would be quite different from the "generic" city described. I >suggest that we of the rl-list start trying to design one of the cities >from ravenloft in a similar fashion. We would need to organize a little, >select a city, find a format etc. Hey, I'm interested. Maybe we can send it to ADND-L when we are done. They may find it a tad interesting. We'll use their template as a guide. (Oops! I just deleted my copy.) And then we can consider what would be more fitting of Ravenloft. Obviously Doomville (that will be its name in this posting, for lack of a better one) will not travel from plane to plane...then again, if it did, it would be a perfect way for a DM to get new players into Ravenloft. OK, so it does. Doomville would probably have almost entirely a human population. Demihumans would be rare, and would possibly live in the "underground." Orcs and gnolls may join the demihumans there. Then, of course, there would be wererats, werewolves, lesser vampires, and other monsters that seem human. The government could be either corrupt and bloody rich or friendly but paranoid. Any suggestions or preferences? ------------------------------------- From hammond@antares.mcs.anl.gov Tue Sep 15 11:31:28 1992 Subject: RL-L: Ravenloft City (Was CITY: summary v1.0) I thought that this was a neat idea, but that for a city to exist in the mists it would be quite different from the "generic" city described. I suggest that we of the rl-list start trying to design one of the cities from ravenloft in a similar fashion. We would need to organize a little, select a city, find a format etc. Is anybody interested??? Steve ------------------------------------- From bcoleman@weber.ucsd.edu Wed Sep 16 13:02:17 1992 Subject: RLL- let's make a city I agree with Zigion, creating our own city for Ravenloft sounds like a great idea, I'd certainly want to help. Zigion suggests Doomville as a name, I personally don't think many people would want to go to a place with that kind of a name, but I don't have a better suggestion. Also, instead of jumping planes, what about having Doomville jump between domains inside of Ravenloft. As such it could be a great market place. A place where any thing or any one can be bought/sold, for the right price. With this kind of a setup, the best government would be corrupt and greedy -- maybe the 5 or so most successful merchants. What do others think? Bob Coleman ------------------------------------- From switzki@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Sep 16 13:54:13 1992 Subject: RLL- let's make a city (cont) > Zigion suggests Doomville as a name, I personally don't > think many people would want to go to a place with that kind > of a name, but I don't have a better suggestion. > Also, instead of jumping planes, what about having > Doomville jump between domains inside of Ravenloft. As such > it could be a great market place. A place where any thing > or any one can be bought/sold, for the right price. With > this kind of a setup, the best government would be corrupt > and greedy -- maybe the 5 or so most successful merchants. I, too, dislike Doomville as a name. As a concept, though, I am quite interested. Suggestion: naming contest/vote? I don't have any suggestions for a name right now, but perhaps if we concentrated on principal aspects of the city the naming will become easier (and more relevant). The idea of a roving city is good. It's also very much like the theater domain described in RR4 Islands of Terror. Questions: would the city be a domain in its own right? Should it be? Would lords of a domain be allowed to enter this city? Stay in it while it moved? Is there some control over the city's motion? Could this control actually be something which the Darklords would lust after, since it would allow THEM to leave their domain or take their domain with them? As an aside, an ideal Forgotten Realms portal to this city would be the infamous and notorious Skullport. Who knows? Perhaps the portal is two-way as well (though not without certain dangers, of course ;-). In the immortal words of Mr. Valentine -- talk it up! I'm very interested in this thread. ============================================================================ From hammond@antares.mcs.anl.gov Wed Sep 16 13:59:56 1992 Subject: City Builders Howdy folks, Yesterday, I proposed building a net.ravenloft.city. I have received 4 responses so far, giving 5 people (including self) who are interested. There seem to be two different ideas developing. a) design a city in Darkon or Nova Vassa (2 people) b) design a dimensionally travelling city "based" in ravenloft. (2 people) there was one generic "Yes!". My idea in starting this was to build the big city in Darkon, whose name I don't remember, though Nova Vasa sounds like a good idea too. However, I think that we need more than 5 people to make this work. Is anybody else interested? Please respond and indicate which of the two ideas you are most interested in, and if you are willing to help if more people are interested in the other. You can send mail direct to me, and I will summarize the results. Thanks, Steve ------------------------------------- From @CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:MBLANK@UTCVM.BITNET Wed Sep 16 15:35:09 1992 Subject: Re: City Builders Sorry about two posts but I answer as I read. The traveling city sounds good to me. But have all of residents cursed so that they always travel with the city and they cannot tell travellers that the city moves. If you are there for say .. two jumps .. you are stuck there. How does this sound? Grabbit Wileucan ------------------------------------- From Z_COOLIDGEJS@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU Wed Sep 16 21:20:04 1992 Subject: RL-L: Unlife in the City, part II Bob Coleman sends: > Zigion suggests Doomville as a name, I personally don't >think many people would want to go to a place with that kind >of a name, but I don't have a better suggestion. Actually, I didn't suggest Doomville as a name. No DM in his right mind would name a city Doomville in a serious campaign! It was a nickname I gave our conceptual city until someone can come up with a suitable one. > Also, instead of jumping planes, what about having >Doomville jump between domains inside of Ravenloft. As such >it could be a great market place. A place where any thing >or any one can be bought/sold, for the right price. It would be the Deep Space Nine of Ravenloft. Hmm. Well, the problem is that in doing so it would eliminate the isolation of each domain. The whole reason Ravenloft was designed as a collection of provinces seperated by various methods including sheer force or spooky mists was probably to keep up a feeling of isolation within each domain. Having the city occur regularly would spoil such. "Doomville" could, on the other hand, occur occasionally within various other domains for a short time. But if it were to be a teleporting city it would have to spend the bulk of its time in one place--most likely as its own little domain. This would suggest that Doomville has a lord... Having Doomville be a marketplace is the first step in actually making the city itself. I like it. A place where anything can be bought or sold...food, clothing, shelter, slaves, poisons, weapons, and other goodies. >With this kind of a setup, the best government would be corrupt >and greedy -- maybe the 5 or so most successful merchants. The lord of the land may be one of those merchants. As the city may roam from place to place, I get the impression of Vistani influence. Maybe the lord there is a darkling. Of course, not every single merchant there has to be evil. It would be most interesting if at least one of the ruling merchants was good at heart. Suddenly, the council starts to look interesting. Suppose one of the 5 governing merchants is good. Another is an evil darkling. The third is the domain ruler and thus evil. And the remaining five are Chaotic Greedy (basically neutral). >What do others think? >Bob Coleman My question exactly. What are your ideas out there? Anyone dislike some of the above? If not, I guess Lee can give it the official stamp of Dark Power approval. More ideas from the floor, please! ------------------------------------- From alvalent@husc Thu Sep 17 02:53:47 1992 Subject: RL-L: City Time, I'll bite >From Zigon: My question exactly. What are your ideas out there? Anyone dislike some of the above? If not, I guess Lee can give it the official stamp of Dark Power approval. More ideas from the floor, please! OK, you asked for it. Zigon again: The lord of the land may be one of those merchants. As the city may roam from place to place, I get the impression of Vistani influence. This may or may not be true. You've all mentioned Scaena, but you've failed to mention the Dark Road of the Headless Horseman (Dark Lords). Both of these have nothing to do with Vistani influence, and unless we are to assume that the Dark Lord (or whoever is in charge) could control the locations the city went to, then Vistani influence is not only unlikely but rather counter intuitive. In truth, a darkling is the only type of Vistani likely to be involved in such a project, the rest being travelling vagabonds who stick with their own people for the most part. I even have some trouble imagining a darkling as a merchant. On teleporting domains. If something the size of a city can move from place to place and appear inside other Domains, then the Dark Lord is not very confined now is he? Especially if he can choose where the thing goes. Also note the difference between what has been suggested and other teleporting domains. The other two are MICROcosms. A strip of road...a single building. These are the examples we've been given of superimposition. The Dark Lord is EXTREMELY confined. Furthermore, other Dark Lords (depending on their powers of observation) may never evn notice the coming of a strip of road which superimposes itself on an already existing strip of road and then vanishes shortly after. Your suggestions may make this city the site of constant siege from the forces of other Dark Lords. A couple of general though provokers: Do the laws of one domain necessarily extend inside a superimposed domain? What are the implications of this? Something I've been working on: normally even Vistani have trouble navigating the Mists. Should it be possible for people to travel with reasonable certainty through the Mists if the Dark Lords on both ends of the transits can somehow communicate and agree to allow the passage: Ivan Dilysnia wants a certain Souragnian spider for its venom. He's willing to trade Anton Misroi a certain something in exchange: a mind numbing poison to heighten his powers of Zombification on the living. Can Ivan send an envoy to Anton and then back again if Anton agrees to it? Can a "superimposing" domain force entry or exit into/from a domain with its borders kept closed? TAKE CAREFUL NOTE OF THE IMPLICATIONS OF A DOMAIN THAT COULD NOT LEAVE ANOTHER DOMAIN WITH CLOSED BORDERS. Now, if you think a person can come and go with the permission of 2 domain Lords, perhaps your city can as well. Furthermore, if this is indeed a Market place, perhaps it allows trade between places like the Isles of Terror which (unlike the Lands of the Core) cannot establish trade routes unless passage is possible through mutual accord (as mentioned earlier). I may be more in favor of doing up a city that doesn't move around, but the project is interesting nonetheless and will likely throw my 2 cents in however worthless they may be. Still, before you consider this travelling idea any further I suggest you answer the above fundamental rules regarding the Laws of the Mists. Once you think you have an answer, RECONSIDER IT!! IT MAY AFFECT THE ISOLATION EFFECTS THAT ARE CRUCIAL TO RAVENLOFT!! Still, I mentioned a while back that the Isles of Terror are not Isles in the water, but in the Mists, and thus there are no "shipping lanes" as it were. Total lack of trade for lands outside the Core seems to make life REAL hard, especially when most of the other domains are only a couple of miles in any direction if that, some even smaller. I feel it is important that we, the Ravenloft GMs (and players too), weigh both these factors: the realities/necessity of trade vs. the effects of isolation upon the Lords. As for the players, they will probably still feel isolated regardless (except perhaps with the city that 'ports about), for if you think that people can travel with the permission of two Lords, were I a PC, I'd be loathe to attract the VERY direct attention of 2 Lords at once and put my life in their hands. Whose to say that when Misroi gets the poison that he'll ever let you go and hold up his end of the bargain (returning you with the spider)? Just my 2 cents Lee ------------------------------------- From hcraig@mischief.ksc.nasa.gov Thu Sep 17 08:41:13 1992 Subject: RL-L City I tend to agree with Lee. A city that moves around within ravenloft even randomly can cause problems, even more so if it has a dark lord in it. The mist of Ravenloft do not let the dark lords travel outside of their domains freely. If this city apeared inside of a domain a dark lord could enter the city and leave with it the next time it moves. Instead of making a city why not make a domain. From the conversation so far I get the feeling that what most of you are shooting for is a city domain. I would be more interested in making a RL-L domain then a city. What about a Domain with the dark lord an evil merchant prince. Make a deal with him and you might regret the day you walked into his domain. Maybe the money in this domain is not how much gold you have but what you can trade in services (of evil maybe) or goods. Stature in the community is gained by how good of a deal you can make (The barter king). I think it would more fitting for us to make a domain then a city. Making a city in a reagular AD&D game is a good idea but this is Ravenloft. We have a lot of talented GM's on this list here and it would be more to our intrests to create our own domain. What do the reat of you think? Hal hcraig@mischief.ksc.nasa.gov ------------------------------------- From Z_COOLIDGEJS@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU Thu Sep 17 10:26:30 1992 Subject: RL-L: Evil City! Hal recommends that we concentrate on making a domain that happens to be a city, rather than making a city that might happen to be a domain. I feel inclined to agree, as if we wanted a city, one of our members also on ADND-L can send us theirs. And if anyone wants to get to work on that project, get on ADND-L. >From Lee: >>Zigon again: >> The lord of the land may be one of those merchants. As the city may >>roam from place to place, I get the impression of Vistani influence. >...I even have some trouble imagining a darkling as a merchant. OK, I see what you are saying. Scratch the darkling. >On teleporting domains. If something the size of a city can move from >place to place and appear inside other Domains, then the Dark Lord >is not very confined now is he? A teleporting city could easily threaten the isolation nature of Ravenloft if it didn't have some ground rules. I will again suggest that the city spends the bulk of its time as an Isle of Terror unto itself, but will occur occasionally for short times for trade. (Maybe one week every 20 years.) Remember the _la Demoiselle_ in Dance of the Dead? It went to Souragne but didn't destroy the realms or wipe out any balances. It just didn't cruise around at will, and only once dared navigate The Fog (tm). >A couple of general though provokers: >Do the laws of one domain necessarily extend inside a superimposed domain? >What are the implications of this? I would think that the laws would compromise in whatever way is most inconvinient for player characters. >...Should it be possible for people to travel >with reasonable certainty through the Mists if the Dark Lords on >both ends of the transits can somehow communicate and agree to allow >the passage: (example of Ivan and Anton) Domain lords have no power outside their domains. I would think that the crazy adventurers who hired out to two Dark Lords are in trouble. (Heck, everyone is in trouble. It's Ravenloft. But they are in that special sort of trouble that makes Mondays seem like Christmas.) The Dark Lords at either end may give stuff that may be of some help, but they cannot control the mists. On the other hand, maybe the two Dark Lords can arrange to bypass the mists. Remember the girl in Dance of the Dead who was trapped somewhere in the mists and could only be reached through a mirror? She may have been teleported there. Perhaps some--not all--Dark Lords may be able to arrange for travel without going through the mists. >Can a "superimposing" domain force entry or exit into/from a domain with >its borders kept closed? TAKE CAREFUL NOTE OF THE IMPLICATIONS >OF A DOMAIN THAT COULD NOT LEAVE ANOTHER DOMAIN WITH CLOSED BORDERS. Not all domains with closed boarders are inescapable. People can fly out of Daglan (from Feast of Goblyns)--sure they will be hunted by little beasties for the rest of their lives, but they can fly out. Faulkovnia has a similar situation. However, some domains are more inescapable than others. If the Dark Lord is the one moving the domain, then he can only leave if doing so would not have some effect on him. For example, an undead petty lord could leave Dorvinia because he is dead and cannot be poisoned. Anyone alive within that domain is in trouble if he or she drank the water! The same undead petty lord would have trouble with the "dazed and confused, and all the roads lead back to" type domains. He or she would have navigation trouble. Sorry I can't continue, but I've got to get to class. ------------------------------------- From switzki@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Sep 17 11:08:14 1992 Subject: RL-L: Evil City! (the debate continues) >From the mind of Z_COOLIDGEJS@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU, we glean the following: > Hal recommends that we concentrate on making a domain that happens to > be a city, rather than making a city that might happen to be a domain. I feel > inclined to agree, as if we wanted a city, one of our members also on ADND-L > can send us theirs. And if anyone wants to get to work on that project, get on > ADND-L. Hmmmmm. . . . Yes, this does seem to be more like what I had in mind, also. > >On teleporting domains. If something the size of a city can move from > >place to place and appear inside other Domains, then the Dark Lord > >is not very confined now is he? > > A teleporting city could easily threaten the isolation nature of Ravenloft if > it didn't have some ground rules. I will again suggest that the city spends > the bulk of its time as an Isle of Terror unto itself, but will occur > occasionally for short times for trade. (Maybe one week every 20 years.) > Remember the _la Demoiselle_ in Dance of the Dead? It went to Souragne but > didn't destroy the realms or wipe out any balances. It just didn't cruise > around at will, and only once dared navigate The Fog (tm). Oh yes! When I seconded the idea of a roving city, the idea of limited roving was an implicit assumption. Anything that may allow an escape from a domain should be a rare occurrence. Perhaps the city domain's location cannot be controlled by the lord of the city -- perhaps the city is "called" to a new locale (from out of the mists, perhaps) by a certain ritual or sequence of events. > >A couple of general though provokers: > >Do the laws of one domain necessarily extend inside a superimposed domain? > >What are the implications of this? > > I would think that the laws would compromise in whatever way is most > inconvinient for player characters. I think that the laws of the domain which is temporarily (key word!) superimposed on the primary domain should take precedence. With the Dark Horseman, for instance, the road is HIS, not the property of the particular domain (or plane) that it's in. > >...Should it be possible for people to travel > >with reasonable certainty through the Mists if the Dark Lords on > >both ends of the transits can somehow communicate and agree to allow > >the passage: (example of Ivan and Anton) > > Domain lords have no power outside their domains. I would think that the crazy > adventurers who hired out to two Dark Lords are in trouble. (Heck, everyone is > in trouble. It's Ravenloft. But they are in that special sort of trouble that > makes Mondays seem like Christmas.) The Dark Lords at either end may give > stuff that may be of some help, but they cannot control the mists. I'm not so sure that this kind of travel would work. The Darklords seem incapable of exerting any sort of direct control over the mists. In this instance, they would more likely have to send a mist ferryman or some other "trustworthy" third party to perform the exchange for them. > On the other hand, maybe the two Dark Lords can arrange to bypass the > mists. Remember the girl in Dance of the Dead who was trapped somewhere in the > mists and could only be reached through a mirror? She may have been teleported > there. Perhaps some--not all--Dark Lords may be able to arrange for travel > without going through the mists. I haven't read the book yet (alas), but this gives me an interesting idea that perhaps solves the problem of a stationary v. roving city. Suppose the city domain exists (and can only be reached through) mirrors. . . . This would provide the roach-motel-like "you can get in, but you can't get out" from possibly ANY domain, and yet it almost completely avoids the superimposition issue. Thoughts (I LIKE it)? > Sorry I can't continue, but I've got to get to class. Ditto! Only I have to TEACH class. . . . ;-) ============================================================================ From hammond@antares.mcs.anl.gov Thu Sep 17 11:18:41 1992 Subject: City Current Status and a new Idea Howdy, I will summarize the numbers so far, and review current trends in the city discussion before I propose a new idea/direction. There are three current ideas in circulation. A city in Darkon (3 votes) A moving city (5 votes) A city domain as an island in the mists (2 votes) However, this is not indicative of current discussion. The city in Darkon seems to have been rejected; there is much more interest in developing a new domain. There has been a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of a moving city, with (I believe) a general agreement that a moving city has many philosophical implications that are not right for Ravenloft. So I believe that the current trend is to build a new island in the mists. My personal opinion, is that we have enough domains and we should concentrate on developing those, not on creating new ones. However, I am willing to go along with the flow and I propose the following two ideas. 1) We could try to create a general Ravenloft City and include chapters for making it an island, a moving domain, or a city in Darkon. A variant of this is to create one, and include chapters for changing to the other two. 2) If we wanted to create an island it could be a large city with some small number of gates (1-4). The road on the other side of each of the gates moves around to various places, similar to the Headless Horseman's road. The exact behavior could be defined later, and the powers of Ravenloft take care of resolving conflicts. For example the road will never appear in a position that a Lord could enter the city. Also, the Lord of the City has no control over where the roads go, and thus no control over who enters. The borders could be closed by "raising the drawbridge." This is kind of like "All roads might lead to Rome." In an attempt to get the project moving, I will evaluate the responses tomorrow, and if there is not a clear direction established I will post a call for votes. If everybody seems to be in agreement, then I will summarize what has been agreed to and propose a plan for organization, and the next step for discussion. If people don't like this plan, then propose a different one. I am trying to keep the discussion of what the city should be from going on forever, thus preventing creation. Steve ------------------------------------- From fluffy@camelot.bradley.edu Thu Sep 17 11:22:31 1992 Subject: RL-L: That darned city! Personally I like the idea of a radomly teleporting city. Granted, overuse of this can easily disturb the isolationism of Ravenloft, so this has to be tempered. Secondly, the city would never be able to survive as a merchant mecca if it remained an Island of Terror. Don't get much trade if you're isolated for 19 years and 51 weeks out of every two decades. Perhaps a newly created city that the other Lords are eager to topple? A city whose merchant class was built on the blood of innocents, where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and exploitation of the lower classes is the norm (and taken way past the most extreme of levels...) The city definitely needs a slums section where a few new corpses every morning is not out of place. And perhaps a network of tunnels, sewers, and catacombs where the criminal underground literally lives underground. (Criminal defined as those who illegally exploit the poor masses, as opposed to those who legally do it...) Just a few ideas to toss around. Jeff ------------------------------------- From iap@ukc.ac.uk Thu Sep 17 11:58:01 1992 Subject: RL-L: Yet More City Ideas! Shawn M. Witzki writes -> > > Oh yes! When I seconded the idea of a roving city, the idea of limited > roving was an implicit assumption. Anything that may allow an escape from a > domain should be a rare occurrence. Perhaps the city domain's location > cannot be controlled by the lord of the city -- perhaps the city is "called" > to a new locale (from out of the mists, perhaps) by a certain ritual or > sequence of events. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Have you considered that the city could appear on the borders of a domain when it was formed and whenever a new Dark Lord assumes control? In this scenario it would have limited traveling capacity which would not be under the control of the Lord of the City. At all other times the city co- uld remain as an island in the mists, with usual access. This would generally have the effect of producing v. short periods of prosperity when the merchant class are literally killing each other to make the greatest profit. Those who do make vast profit can use the wealth to assume power and gain great influence in the coming years of isolation. Just adding to the ideas... Ian. ------------------------------------- From hcraig@mischief.ksc.nasa.gov Thu Sep 17 11:59:01 1992 Subject: RL-L City I don't think we would need mirrors to transport people to this new domain. We already have the mists of Ravenloft to do that for us. If somebody wanted to use mirrors to transport players between domains then nothing is wrong with that. Players stepping into a mirror thinking it is a portal to their home would be in for a nasty suprise. I think we should develope a domain based on the current framework of Ravenloft. Let it be a single city or whatever those on the list want to do, but we should try to keep entry to it and exit from it just like any other domain in Ravenloft. That way we don't have to worry about upsetting the balance with the other domains. Hal hcraig@mischief.ksc.nasa.gov ------------------------------------- From adriano@dcc.unicamp.br Thu Sep 17 13:34:46 1992 Subject: An Athasian Lord I Have much contact with a dark sun dungeon master,so I have the idea of making a Lord that comes from that setting,since dark sun have some different problems i think about he doesn't come with a part of Athas,but he casts a spell that requires about 500 murders and then teleport him to other world that he doesn't know. This lord in the case could be an Elvian Defiler. I would like suggestions. Sorry for the poor english. ------------------------------------- From tellab5!yclept!eternal!jgostin@clout.chi.il.us Thu Sep 17 13:58:04 1992 Subject: RLL- let's make a city (cont) "Shawn M. Witzki" writes: > > Zigion suggests Doomville as a name, I personally don't either do I. How about Ravinia? Sounds almost, well, I don't know what to call it, but it sounds inline with the Ravenloft genre. > > it could be a great market place. A place where any thing > > or any one can be bought/sold, for the right price. With > > this kind of a setup, the best government would be corrupt > > and greedy -- maybe the 5 or so most successful merchants. I love it! :-) > domain described in RR4 Islands of Terror. Questions: would the city be > a domain in its own right? Should it be? Would lords of a domain be allowed > to enter this city? Stay in it while it moved? Is there some control over > the city's motion? Could this control actually be something which the Darklo > would lust after, since it would allow THEM to leave their domain or take the > domain with them? I think this should be a domain in its own right, owned by a Theif who was looking just a little too hard to a scam to pull. One minute he was following some rich merchant into the mists, the next thing he knows, badda-bing badda-boom, he's got his own land of scam to rule! :-) ------------------------------------- From Z_COOLIDGEJS@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU Thu Sep 17 15:15:02 1992 Subject: RL-L: Location isn't the only issue Why not stop worrying about where the city is or where it may go and start work on the nitty gritty? I don't mean halting our discussions of location and the philosophical implications, but how about some of the other aspects of a city? What would be in a Ravenloft city that wouldn't be in a Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance city? Of course there will be super-aristocrats and downtrodden poor. The proposition of merchants implies a middle class, unless the ruling merchants decide to form an oligarchy that stamps out such a class. The nature of the merchants is one of the reasons why I don't mean halting our discussions of location and philosophy. This began as a plan to make a Ravenloft city. Why don't we carry that through. I know I'm eating the very words I typed this morning, but I have learned since then. Making a domain is a bit tricky when done as a group project. Domains and lords are best made IMHO by individuals who listen to suggestions. A city on the other hand is the product of many people, so it can easily be designed by many people. What we need are some inns and taverns. That will be where the adventurers in most campaigns go first. (Ravenloft or not, it is still AD&D!) Government may or may not be a part of an adventure. But it is not the only part possible. One can have small rulers and underground lords as well. And they don't have to be Dark lords to be evil and to have power. Encounter tables for day and night, and for different sections of town would be nice. We could also use places to get various supplies. A city doesn't have to be this multi-dimentional time warping domain that dances through The Fog (tm) once a decade like I suggested earlier. It can just be a normal, generic place, like the one suggested by the Azalin Loyalist faction of this list. How about some other places in the city? How about a temple to a friendly god? (Has about 3 or 4 members, including the staff?) Or a diabolical temple whose priests look like King Diamond and KISS with the facepaint? Maybe some ordinary people in the background, totally unremarkable except for the fact that they are key characters in an adventure? Maybe they are TOO unremarkable to be trustworthy, huh? Don't stop discussing location on my account, but there is more to a city than where it pops up. --Zigon ------------------------------------- From hammond@antares.mcs.anl.gov Thu Sep 17 15:22:15 1992 Subject: Re: RL-L: Location isn't the only issue >Don't stop discussing location on my account, but there is more to a city than >where it pops up. --Zigon Yes, but I think that it is fundamental to know where it is going to be, before deciding what is in it. For example, if it is in Darkon we don't need to worry about a Lord living in the city. However if we create a new domain, then it will be strongly influenced by the lord within!! BTW, did my note make it out this morning? I thought that my "all roads lead to rome" would get at least one response. Steve ------------------------------------- From fluffy@camelot.bradley.edu Thu Sep 17 16:06:49 1992 Subject: RL-L: More mumblings on that durned city... Once again, I like the idea of a pocket domain. One new enough that the other Dark Lords don't really know about, but have heard enough rumors to become suspicious. One that can attach itself adjacent to/within another domain. Since it isn't really known about, there won't be many people using it as a means of escape. It appears in isolated enough regions that it is really only known about in rumors. 'Twould make an interesting introduction for the PC's: Escorting a merchant caravan to an unknown city. Or those who are under the control of a Dark Lord might be sent to scout it out... I like the idea of a ruling circle of the 5 most powerful merchants. The one with the real power would be the Lord. Confine him to his domain by his own paranoia--If he tries to leave the city walls, or his housing/ruling complex, or the wealthy section of town, or whatever boundaries you put on him, he would be deathly afraid that all his money and power are suddenly being taken from him. Being the ultimate materialist, this would be nearly a death blow. The city could also be a storehouse for any cursed item or black magic the characters may wish to buy (or don't wish but are tricked into, etc. }=] ) Thieves, assassins, cutthroats, and corrupt government abound. Hmmm. Sanctuary, from the "Thieves' World" series comes to mind... Jeff ------------------------------------- From blackman@acsu.buffalo.edu Thu Sep 17 16:20:44 1992 Subject: Re: RL-L: Unlife in the City, part II I mailed this reply thing out when i first saw the message but i dont think it got through to the list since nn doesnt seem to like CC:'s. So here goes my ideas..... 1) i tended to disagree with doomville as a name because it didnt seem like the kind of place regular people would go. of course we arent looking to attract regular people, but advernturers ( who, assuming we follow normal patterns and TSR's ideas, would be of good or at least anti-evil alignments) and a name like doomville will attract them. 2) why make the city roam at all? why cant we make it a domain or a partial domain..one which appears in all of the other domains simultaneously or can be reached consciously from all domains, rather than the "oh-i-will-wander-into-the-mists-and-see-where-i-come-out syndrome". however i feel that if we want to take this tack then we should also look at a darklord who would for some reason not like being trapped in a city (i.e. conan) and that the dark lords would want to keep in tragedy that way. i have no real ideas as of yet on that but i will work on it some more and let you know what i come up with. 3) i think a ruling council or at least the idea that there is a ruling council is a good idea. more plot lines and gives the adventurers something to work for, with, etc. 4) we will need someone to at least come up with a map of the city 5) do we want to go into as much detail as the greyhawk boxed set??? i think it would be an excellent idea. 6) i think this is a great idea, but the amount of mail is staggering. i guess we finally fouind something we can all get excited (dreadfilled) about.... darkling ------------------------------------- From blackman@acsu.buffalo.edu Fri Sep 18 08:00:50 1992 Subject: Re: RLL-- Teleporting city Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 20:12:04 -0700 From: bcoleman@weber.ucsd.edu (Bob Coleman) (1) I don't think teleporting would cause problems with breaking up the isolation. First of all, I would never have it showing up anywhere often, though once every 20 years seems a little infrequent to me. I'd go for closer to once every 5 years. That way, many of the residents of the domain where the "city" land know it comes every now and again. If that is there only contact with the outside world I believe that the sense of issolation is increased, because they know the outside world is there. But, with out outside contact, many of the inhabitants of a domain would not know that there is anything else, and their failure to move about would not seem issolating. Well, at least that's what I think. (2) If the city teletports, what's to say you are allowed to stay in the city when it goes. If your not an inhabitant of the city, well then it just teleports away from you and you stay there. Could lead to some interesting falls if your not on the ground when the cith teleports ... Of course if the ruler of the city closes the borders, then those he/she/it wants to remain do so, and can not leave the city until the Lord of the city allows, of course by then there in a foreign land... Unless you fall in love with one of the in habitants, in which case the city can't leave without you. This sounds far too much like Brigadoon to me. If you don't know the story of Brigadoon let me know, I will mail it out. Why have the city teleport at all? Why can't the city stay in one place but have it arranged with the Dark Powers that the city is the one place that people can get to consciously. Say they know about the city and they want to get there, they wander into the mist with the intention of going to said city and they show up. Or they just show up kindof like as a rest stop between domains. I have to say that I do like the idea of the city vanishing, especially if you are running a campaign which requires that lots of research. Why not have the city remain only during the night, and the only way you can stay in the city during the daytime hours is if a citizen is paying you to do work. Not necessarily meaning you have to get a job, but almost...... This will end up with the adventurers working for at least two people and perhaps more. Darkling ------------------------------------- From hammond@antares.mcs.anl.gov Fri Sep 18 11:01:48 1992 Subject: RL-L: A Proposal for Action in the City. Greetings, First, this mornings summary. We seem to have agreed on the following... a) The city is a domain, with it's own lord. b) The city is a trading city. c) It is ruled by a council of 5 merchants. d) It exists only within Ravenloft The big and as yet unanswered question is: Does it teleport or is it a pocket domain? I occurs to me that this will not have a very drastic effect on the rest of the design of the city. It will need someway to contact the rest of Ravenloft, but this could be either of the 2 itdeas. Therefore, I propose that we move on. At a later point, descriptions can be written up for the specifics of teleportation, mist behavior is fairly well "understood." This will enable a particular DM to decide which it is. Does this sound like a solid plan?? I believe that the next step is to choose a lord for the domain. For this I offer the following as a basis for discussion. The ruling council consists fo 5 merchants. They are all Lords, Sharing the power. I see this as part of their curse. 5 power hungry merchants, forced to share the wealth and power with the other 4. The Powers of Ravenloft(POR) provide oppertunities to "remove" other members from the council, but these always seem to thwarted maintaining the balance of power. In order to perform an action as a lord, they must have a majority vote of the council (i.e. At least three of them must agree to close the borders before it can happen.) This again increases the politics of the council. Each member "knows" that removing the other members of the council would result in their obtaining control, but they can never quite pull it off. In this way, they have to cooperate while trying to wrest control from the others. We need to also decide why the 5 Lords are imprisoned here. Steve ------------------------------------- From switzki@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Sep 18 11:14:08 1992 Subject: RL-L: A Proposal for Action in the City. (cont) >From the mind of Steven J. Hammond, we glean the following: > a) The city is a domain, with it's own lord. Hmmmm. . . . For some reason I thought people wanted to flesh out a city in an existing domain. My mistake. 20 lashes with a wet noodle for me. > b) The city is a trading city. I still have some problems with the logistics of this (refer to my previous post -- this one arrived while I was writing it). > c) It is ruled by a council of 5 merchants. > d) It exists only within Ravenloft > > Does this sound like a solid plan?? Sure. > The ruling council consists fo 5 merchants. They are all Lords, > Sharing the power. I see this as part of their curse. 5 power hungry > merchants, forced to share the wealth and power with the other 4. The > Powers of Ravenloft(POR) provide oppertunities to "remove" other members > from the council, but these always seem to thwarted maintaining the > balance of power. In order to perform an action as a lord, they must > have a majority vote of the council (i.e. At least three of them must > agree to close the borders before it can happen.) This again increases > the politics of the council. Each member "knows" that removing the other > members of the council would result in their obtaining control, but they > can never quite pull it off. In this way, they have to cooperate while > trying to wrest control from the others. > We need to also decide why the 5 Lords are imprisoned here. I can handle the idea of power hungry merchants, and I think that a rigidly enforced council decision process is fitting. I , however, would think that members COULD be removed from the council, but this would allow another mechant to ascend to a position on the council. Thus, the merchants must fear not only their fellow council members but also other merchants in the city who aspire to darker depths. This would facilitate the balance of power, since all of the merchants who fancy themselves as "next in line" would be keeping a close eye on the council and would likely swoop in to fill an opening. Here's a thought. Suppose that the lords themselves are really unaware of what gives them their power (I mean specifically). Create five rings, each distinct, that serve as symbols of station. The merchants believe that the possession of all five rings would give them absolute power. The only problem, of course, is that each of the other four have the same idea. Now, these rings may or MAY NOT be what the Dark Powers use to invest power in the lords of the city. Or, it may be that they (DP) "help" other merchants in acquiring the extra ring if any merchant collects a second. Thus, no lord will ever have supreme power, but they all remain unaware that this is actually a rule and not just coincidental circumstances. Am I making any sense? It's early. ;-) Note also that with this sort of lordly turnover, knowledge of what the "true" powers of any particular ring (and I think they should all "provide" different powers) are is at a premium. Since the merchants believe that it is the rings which give them power, information about what each ring can do (or perhaps even what they look like) is a jealously guarded secret. Chew on this. ============================================================================ From alvalent@husc Fri Sep 18 11:21:47 1992 Subject: RL-L: Things First, PLEASE don't include half of someone else's post. PLEASE!!! If you want to include a sentence or two, no prob. If you want to send a HUGE post, that's still not as bad, but I save EVERY post (or almost every post) to my account, and download them once a week to edit them and put them in digest format. I can save half the normal load if you include a copy of letter that we all just read. Sorry for the bother. Thanks Now, on to business. Mirrors as means of entry? Save that for the Phantom of the Opera's domain. I know he doesn't have one yet, but we do have the Dark Minstrel, and Scaena, and I think that Ravenloft cannot be without a Phantom. Read the story, and leave mirrors to him. Coinage? Merchant lords should trap people in their domains through the coin of the land. How? I'm still working on that. Also a Merchant Lord should have his curse revolving around those coins too. Consider trade! How do people get anything bought and sold, especially outside the lands of the Core. I have a minor in Economics and think about such things. It's been disturbing me ever since R. Gallo posted on possibili- ties for shipping lanes in Ravenloft. The only reason I like the city idea (the teleporting one) is that it solves this problem. On the other hand, it causes new ones in many ways. So I am neither very for or very against this idea. I am for the development of cities. I have so many modules and such to run with that a new domain is not what I really need. Adventures, cities, NPCs, items... I need these. I have found the notes on the various modules such as FoG very helpful. I found S. Witzki's post on the House of Lament a piece of art. I think ideas for running material already present interest me more than anything else, though of course, I am willing to carry on with the majority vote should we decide that a teleporting city is worth the time to create. I suggest that one look at Lankhmar for information applicable to Nova Vaasa, and for sewer maps that are great for Richemulot. There's even some good wererat adventures in there. Lankhmar is the perfect companion to Ravenloft, and I've had a former Lankhmar player comment on how the feel is similar, though Lankhmar was in the grime, and Ravenloft is in the dark. GURPS Horror and Call of Cthulhu have excellent London notes for running Nova Vaasa and other places. Still they are not properly populated by NPCs and such. I encourage people, even if we continue with the Merchant Domain idea, to post their notes on other domains and adventures. I owe the list Dorvinian info. I owe the list Snow Queen info. Shawn owes us Valachan. Hal (in addition to myself) should probably post some more Dorvinian stuff. Soon, I'll try to comb through the posts, and put all the stuff into groups. All the Barovian stuff in one group, all the Dorvinian stuff in another, etc. If time permits, I will mail copies out to those who are interested in these subjects but not in the rest of the Digest info. This remain oops remains to be seen, however, as it will be quite a task. Again, I'd like to request info on things we all have and use. I think new NPCs and cities are harder to come by than new Domains. Domains are the easy part of Ravenloft. Populating those Domains is where the real work starts and where high quality is harder to come by. Good notes on runs are even harder to come by. Lastly, on Night of the Walking Dead. I remember that someone at some point mentioned that they had an alternate list of rumors for Night.... I'd like to see those as well as here posts on modifications to that module that you have undertaken. Lee ------------------------------------- From switzki@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Sep 18 11:21:52 1992 Subject: RLL: The Roving City There are unfortunately some basic problems inherent with the city being described so far (I saw these after giving the matter some thought when I should have been working on an assignment ;-). The most basic problem is rather straightforward -- how can this be a merchant/trading city if it only appears once every five years? Where do the inhabitants get their food from? Intracity commerce is not a problem, obviously, but establishing the city as a hub of trading would seem to be rather difficult if there are no real trade routes. This is not to say that I oppose the idea of a roving city, just that I think there are some pretty jagged edges that require a lot of smoothing before it will satisfy my sense of make-believe realism. For the time being, I think that I agree with the person who posted that the formation of a new domain should be somewhat of a private "only I know what's REALLY going on here" creation. On the other hand, creating all the details of a city, in general, is a process which IS facilitated by the input of many, many people, since that's how real cities work in the first place. If, like me, you are still interested in the roving city domain, fine. All I am suggesting is that perhaps that type of project is ill-suited to full list participation. Does this make sense? So, my next question is: have we decided where the stationary city is located yet? I remember reading about Darkon and/or Nova Vaasa, but frankly I can't recall if anything ever got finalized. The specific location isn't incredibly important to me personally, but I think it should be decided first (and soon). ============================================================================ From pbuchert@kaira.hut.fi Sat Sep 19 11:06:05 1992 Subject: Re: RL-L: More mumblings on that durned city... > Once again, I like the idea of a pocket domain. One new enough that > the other Dark Lords don't really know about, but have heard enough Me too! > rumors to become suspicious. One that can attach itself adjacent > to/within another domain. Since it isn't really known about, there > won't be many people using it as a means of escape. It appears in > isolated enough regions that it is really only known about in rumors. > 'Twould make an interesting introduction for the PC's: Escorting > a merchant caravan to an unknown city. Or those who are under the Wonderful way to bring unsuspecting PCs to RL. < While camped outside the city(They never seem to get there before night ;) camp is enveloped in thick unpenetrable mist and when they finally next day enter the city,they are already trapped > > control of a Dark Lord might be sent to scout it out... Well how about if the city existed on several planes simultaneosly (ie Forgotten realms,other domainss etc..) it would be easy way to lure the PCs in their own free (heh) will to RL.Everytime one exits the city one doesn't know where exatly he is,it like anything else would be a gamble (Maybe lords of other domains would be interrested in anyone who has visited the city) ,of course this could be a back door to save some PCs from RL (If you are feeling generous enough) > I like the idea of a ruling circle of the 5 most powerful merchants. I liked the idea with the rings,it certainly would be a setting for a power gamble as each merchant thought that acquiring more rings would bring more power (Nice plots to involve players with) I think that any of the merchants shouldn't be able to leave the city, if they even went out of the city their powers (Yes,I would give them some) would diminish significantly. And also other lords might (??) be able to enter the city (again with diminished powers) but they would not be able to escape their own domain. > The city could also be a storehouse for any cursed item or black > magic the characters may wish to buy (or don't wish but are tricked > into, etc. }=] ) Thieves, assassins, cutthroats, and corrupt government > abound. Hmmm. Sanctuary, from the "Thieves' World" series comes > to mind... Hmm,black magic,cursed items YES! and endless source of weird magic items. Maybe even some assasins guild > Jeff Patrick ------------------------------------- From WMS2@VAXB.YORK.AC.UK Sat Sep 19 16:09:54 1992 Subject: RL: City project I like the idea of the itinerant city. Those of you who have the now ancient OP1 - Tales Of The Outer Planes will be aware of the World Serpent Inn, a magical inn that moves between worlds, acting as a nexus to all the outer planes. This is the sort of idea that I think has been suggested. I could post details here if people want to know more. Come to think of it, doesn't something like this exist in ravenloft already? Isn't one of the Isles Of Terror a theatre that moves around the domains, popping up in all sorts of places. I like the idea anyway, and have a few ideas I could contribute if someone is going to co-ordinate. cheers wayne ------------------------------------- From switzki@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Sep 19 20:52:05 1992 Subject: Obscure monster synopses >From the mind of Alvin Valentine, we glean the following: > For those of us who don't have all of your sources, Shawn, can you post > a synopsis of what Steel Shadows and Carpet Snakes do (although I already > have a good idea). Don't smash copyright laws unless you're feeling adventurous, > but a synopsis would be in order. See below. > Furthermore, as a suggestion to Bruce Nesmith, when I give him a jingle in the > fall, how about a Rogue's Gallery type thing. That includes the stats > of all the Dark Lords we've only heard about. Maybe the format should be > like the cards in the boxed set, or maybe it should be like Who's Wo > oops WHo's Who in the DC Universe, the new version, with nifty art on > stock card, with 3 ring binder holes. How about that? Heck it may be in > the Forbidden... set, but for now, who knows? This Rogues' Gallery thing sounds good. For those who are interested, I post some information about a couple of monsters I mentioned in my apparently well-liked House of Lament stuff -- carpet snakes and steel shadows. CARPET SNAKE (q.v. WGA1 Greyhawk Ruins) --------------------------------------- Carpet snakes are a most unusual and frightening monster. They can be especially deadly due to their poison and method of attack. Victims can find themselves completely surrounded by these snakes before realizing they are under attack. These serpents spend most of their lives in a dormant state. They are able to change their physical composition in order to blend in with a rug or carpet. In this state, they can exist for up to one year without feeding. They are completely dormant and do not eat, sleep, or breathe. Any food that has been ingested is absorbed slowly, sustaining them over a long period. A small rat can sustain a carpet snake for up to six months. Carpet snakes become active on the command of a master or when sensing the presence of prey. They can be taught to recognize up to five masters and four simple commands. They will never attack their masters, but will generally attack anything that moves unless halted by a master's command. When a carpet snake senses motion or vibrations caused by a creature walking on its carpet, it begins to take shape. The carpet first appears to writhe on the second round after the carpet was initially walked upon, and victims may well believe this effect to be a minor hallucination. A carpet snake can return to carpet form in one round. It cannot be wounded in this form. Even if the carpet is slashed, the snake may reform. Only cutting the carpet into several pieces and spreading these pieces more than 20 yards apart (or, of course, burning the carpet) will keep the carpet snake from reforming. STEEL SHADOW (q.v. The Ruins of UnderMountain boxed set) -------------------------------------------------------- Although they look rather like giant planarian worms, equally at home on land and under water, they are rarely seen in their true forms. Steel shadows possess the unusual ability to merge with metal, entering and animating metal items. Steel shadows use these metal shells as both homes and weapons, their presence betrayed only by a dark patch on the surface of the metal -- hence their name. Steel shadows can remain inside metal indefinitely without harm. They can see through, and out of, metal with 80' infravision. A steel shadow has two harmless, barbel-like feelers projecting from its mouth. Its expandable body, however, contains five retractable barbed, sucking tentacles which can be extended up to six feet away. Steel shadows can fully merge with any metal item larger in volume than a longsword. Steel shadows within metal worn by a being can automatically hit with all tentacles on the round after they merge. Steel shadows cannot merge with metal items bearing magical dweomers, however. In addition, a steel shadow can animate any metal it contacts, causing these items to move, fly, and attack. A steel shadow crawling along a ledge or the floor can "fire" arrows with metal heads, or hurl coins. A favorite steel shadow tactic is to merge with an empty suit of armor, or one containing a skeleton or corpse (making opponents think that they face undead), and lunge forward to embrace human prey. The steel shadow's tentacles then spring out of the helm to strike at the face of its opponent. ============================================================================ END OF DIGEST #17