From: Mike Pompura To: Peter E. Yee Msg #2, 26-Sep-89 12:17pm Subject: Re: Shuttle Status for 09/21/89 (Forwarded) Pete: What's your opionion regarding the latest incident over at KSC? I'd like to be informed on the reason why these highly trained people over there cannot distinguish between the on/off water connections in the sprinkler systems. I'm certainly not one to hammer NASA...but it does appear as if there needs to be a personnel change there, or perhaps to hire a plumber to be on-duty to shut the water on and off. I heard there was a scramble to shut the sprinklers off...and what do they do over there....turn them on MORE. Not what I'd expect from an aerospace professional. . --- QuickBBS v2.04 * Origin: NASA Aerospace Information Reprography 407-774-7371 (1:363/49) From: Linda Sloan To: David Anderman Msg #3, 01-Jul-90 01:09pm Subject: Re: Space enthusuaim; what to do David, I wish you weren't right but I think you are. Unless there are people here interested enough to prove us wrong. Perhaps what we need to be thinking is what these computerists can do to help get us out there with the skills that they have. Perhaps programs that could simulate space missions or educational programs for all levels of the educational market. Mathmatical analysis is needed for CAD and engineering work. Design and orbital mechanics are difficult subjects even for working engineers. Satellite communications may be needed for private spacecraft navigation and tracking. Is there anything I've left out? How about putting it to the computerists out there? Prove we're wrong! Ad Astra --- Opus-CBCS 1.12 * Origin: EchoMania - A Nice Place To Be. (1:2222/301.0) From: Mark Balaschak To: Billy Rand Msg #4, 01-Jul-90 10:35pm Subject: Sociobiology I haven't heard of this, but it sounds interesting. What's the bassis of their argument? --- TosScan 1.00 * Origin: (703)-HALLUCINATION * Fairfax, VA * Amiga & ST * (1:109/345) From: Chip Richards To: Cy Huie Msg #5, 01-Jul-90 12:04pm Subject: Re: orbital tanking Cy, > What would you think of this: tank hydrogen and ozygen together, as water; > not much risk of explosion there. The water could be separated into its > hydrogen and oxygen components as required in real time by allowing for the > hydrolysis process in the operation of the engine, so that there would be > no volitile fuel or oxidizer until the moment needed. Now, I'm no physicist, and there *are* some on the echo, but I'll risk it. I *think* it would take just as much energy to split the water molecules into H and O as you would regain by recombining them. Minimum. And that's ignoring energy dissipated through inefficiency in both processes, which is not a safe thing to do. So, the result is, you would expend *much* more energy splitting the moecular bonds than you would regain in combustion. You might have an interesting idea, anyway, though. The energy available to split water might not be readily usable for propulsion--like solar, for example. Maybe launch a ship with solid boosters, let it loll around in orbit soaking up the rays, slowly ripping its tankful of water into hydrogen and oxygen. Once it was done, blast off for parts beyond. Or maybe some of the abovementioned waste heat from combustion could indeed be used to lyse water in real-time. I dunno what numbers would be involved--anybody? Chip --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: A Chip in time saves nine (1:114/18.3) From: Scot Art To: Joe Fischer Msg #6, 29-Jun-90 10:50pm Subject: Re: Cape York(e) * Replying to a message originally to peter jetson JF> There is also military equipment sales rules which apply JF>even to patented items. I would guess that heavy rockets JF>would come under the heading if military equipment. There are also "technology export" restrictions which can apply to even exporting something like a high-end PC - You gotta ask permission first. Even from Australia, as we were signatories to the international treaty. It's a bit stupid now, given the conditions in Europe now. Scot --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Sys-Ex -*- (61-2) 3564148 (3:712/634) From: Scot Art To: Bev Freed Msg #7, 30-Jun-90 12:04am Subject: Re: Will I get there? * Replying to a message originally to David Anderman BF>ArabSat could have been launched quite easily without El-Saud BF>along for the ride. But his country paid -- boy, did they BF>pay. You mean the same way that rich, bored kids pay their way into F-1 racing, except on a bigger scale? Formula 1 is _not_ cheap! ($600,000 for a patch on Nicki Lauda's overalls) :-) Hey - I just had an idea - why not sell patch space on astronauts? Can you just picture it - a huge Exxon or Mobil or Marlboro logo emblazoned across their backs! "This shuttle lands on Dunlops" - "Powered by Honda". . Scot. --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Sys-Ex -*- (61-2) 3564148 (3:712/634) From: Scot Art To: Bev Freed Msg #8, 30-Jun-90 12:07am Subject: Re: Cape York(e) * Replying to a message originally to Joe Fischer ... copyright and patent agreement non-signatories ... BF>Neither does India. And the U.S. has been screaming bloody BF>murder for quite some time about that. Nor Taiwan. --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Sys-Ex -*- (61-2) 3564148 (3:712/634) From: Scot Art To: Martin Hanneman Msg #9, 30-Jun-90 12:22am Subject: Cape York Rocket Base * Replying to a message originally to All MH> Can anyone tell me if they know anything about the proposed MH>NASA rocket base for Cape York, Australia? Is it still MH>planned? What is the liklihood of it going ahead, and when? dunno bout the "offical" position at this very moment, but it seems that the Americans object because they don't want us to launch the US-made satelittes on Russian rockets - it's mostly the rocket manufacturers' playing dirty - they got someone (can't remember if it was Bush or not) to block our choice of project manager (it was a US aerospace company). Basically, no Yankee sattelites, no Yankee dollar, no go. :-( (the exact mechanism used is technology transfer laws - Russian techs just _might_ see restricted US technolgy. The Russians counter offered by saying they'd train some of our guys to be techs first (pick ME! pick ME!), I do not know what happened after that...) Scot --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Sys-Ex -*- (61-2) 3564148 (3:712/634) From: Ralph Buttigieg To: Kenneth Myers Msg #10, 01-Jul-90 01:36pm Subject: Re: NSS protests Chinese launch pricing The Chinese rocket may be more reliable then you think. AUSAT will be using them to launch their next comsats. One of the reasons for choosing the Long March was its reliability as well as cheapness. We had a bloke from AUSAT giving as a talk about it last year at one of our SSFS meetings. Its a very simple design with a proven track record. --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: ~~\ SHORTWAVE POSSUMS /~~ DURAL, NSW, AUSTRALIA (3:713/605.0) From: Richard Jary To: Martin Hanneman Msg #11, 01-Jul-90 12:16pm Subject: Re: Cape York Rocket Base MH> Can anyone tell me if they know anything about the proposed MH> NASA rocket base for Cape York, Australia? Is it still MH> planned? What is the liklihood of it going ahead, and when? I don't know the current status, but it's not actually a NASA base. A private group of companies was planning to set it up, and possible use Chinese "Long March" rockets to launch. Regards, ... Richard (Networking from Narara) --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: ~\SHORTWAVE POSSUMS BBS/~ OZ's SWL Centre! (3:713/605) From: Richard Jary To: Cy Huie Msg #12, 01-Jul-90 04:29pm Subject: Re: orbital tanking CH> What would you think of this: tank hydrogen and ozygen together, CH> as water; not much risk of explosion there. The water could be CH> separated into its hydrogen and oxygen components as required in CH> real time by allowing for the hydrolysis process in the CH> operation of the engine, so that there would be no volitile CH> fuel or oxidizer until the moment needed. A nice idea. But to split the water at the rate required by the engine would require a lot of energy, which would have to come from somewhere. Regards, ... Richard (Networking from Narara) --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: ~\SHORTWAVE POSSUMS BBS/~ OZ's SWL Centre! (3:713/605) From: Ralph Buttigieg To: Cy Huie Msg #13, 01-Jul-90 10:57am Subject: Shuttle To Mars >>Before any Mars Mission is atempted, much more research into >>Space medicine will be needed. >Why? We have decades of space medicine experience at this moment. .... The longest time that anyone has been in space is about a year,currently held by the Soviets. A return mission to Mars would take at least 2 years. There are still lots of questions to be answered before a manned Mars Mission can be atempted. --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: Paragon Bulletin Board - Doorway to the Secret Garden (3:712/502) From: Ralph Buttigieg To: Joe Fischer Msg #14, 01-Jul-90 11:03am Subject: Re: Orbital Tanking >Liquid O & H are not cold when kept under pressure, they are cold if >allowed to boil because they are not under pressure. I don't think >any insulation is good enough to keep either from boiling, and I >don't think a pressure tank is within reason. There are other fuels >not quite as powerful per pound that are easier to store. .... It is possible to store liquid fuels in Space. I will quote you a bit from "Foundation Astronautics Notebook-6" by the World Space Foundation.:"Low temperture propellants... are referred to as "space-storable" since these high Isp propellants can be passively stored in spacecraft by using specially insulated tanks and radiator designs..... Unfortunately, liquid hydrogen has such low storage temperture that it requires an active refrigeration system. Special refrigeration systems with no moving parts... are being developed for this purpose." That was written back in 1982 so I assume there has been some progress made. Remember recent NASA designs for Mars Missions eg: Sally Ride's Sprint Mission use LO2+LHO2 fuels. Its something that will have to be developed anyway. --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: Paragon Bulletin Board - Doorway to the Secret Garden (3:712/502) From: Ralph Buttigieg To: Kenneth Myers Msg #15, 01-Jul-90 11:04am Subject: Shuttle To Mars >Assuming we are still using LO2 and LH2 for fuel and oxidizer, how >do you keep what you already have on orbit from boiling away? What .. See my reply to Mr Fischer for an answer. .... >about fuel transfer procedures? How long is your travel time to ... Use the same ones for the Shuttle Moon trip.(I should be seeing my friend again in a few weeks, and will obtain the name of the company who has researched the Shuttle moon mission.) ... >Mars, and can the shuttle carry sufficient consumables for the trip? ... It would take about 2 years. For a 5 person crew consuming say 5lbs of consumables a day each (a number I got from Jerry Pournelle's book "A step farther out") I get less then 7 tonnes. The shuttle can hold 25 tonnes in its cargo bay. .... >How do you decelerate into Mars orbit? If you're aerobraking, then >no ET. Once the mission is completed, does the shuttle have enough >delta V for a return? The OMS is fine for orbital maneuvering, but >does it have the kick to get you back home? Does the shuttle ... The delta V to get into LEO is at least 7.6 kps. The delta V to get to the Martian Moons and back is 7.3kps. Only Aerobraking for Earth return is assumed. ... >airframe have the strength to handle an aerobraking maneuver at the >kinds of speeds one is apt to encounter when returning from an >interplanetary trajectory (I am assuming anywhere from 25,000 to ... Good question. Is there some expert on aerobraking out there who can tell us?, rather then just asking more questions? .. >One other thing, how do you LAND? I'll be damned if I'd travel 100 >million miles to Mars, just to look at the scenery from orbit... ... Send the Mars lander to Mars first on a separate rocket.Then rendezvous at Phobos. Or just go out and streach your legs on Deimos. .... My greatest doubt at this stage is the reliability of the Shuttle. Hydrogen leaks out at Mars could be rather dangerous. ... ADD ASTRA Ralph. --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: Paragon Bulletin Board - Doorway to the Secret Garden (3:712/502) From: David Kenny To: Laura Nicol Msg #16, 01-Jul-90 12:36pm Subject: Re: Will I Get There? Hmm, I remember that idea but i don't think it ever got off the ground. It goes to show though that the enterprising mind is still functioning all right. Have you heard of the idea being thrown about between the Oz govt and NASA that a space launching site should be installed up in the far North of Queensland? Curious as to what you do? Work/Study? See you :-) David --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: Paragon Bulletin Board - Doorway to the Secret Garden (3:712/502) From: Jon Giorgini To: Public Msg #17, 01-Jul-90 04:18pm Subject: Hubble Correction; Ground-based? Anyone know what would be involved in a ground-based computer correction for the mirror geometry? An image is build up on the CCD which should map back onto the surface of the secondary mirror which should map back onto the primary mirror (except for pick-off obstructions). If you know the mirror geometry you actually have and the geometry you were supposed to have, computer analysis "should" be able to reconstruct a corrected image based on the CCD readout. This would probably be the first idea that occured to anyone actually connected with HST, but they went public with a "corrective lens" option instead. Any image processors out there in the know? Anyone with some Cray capacity just idling? --- QM v1.00 * Origin: (1:382/37.0) From: Clay Hartsoe To: Kenneth Myers Msg #18, 30-Jun-90 01:44am Subject: Re: Titan Explosion Ken,----I thought that the Titan fuel was in a gel state, rather than in liquid form. Is that incorrect? I was told that was the reason that it was more difficult to work with than the earlier Atlas's or the later solid fuel Minuteman.------BTW-----NASA's getting the rasp- berry again, 1.5 billion dollar telescope with defective optics and a shuttle fleet that's grounded again.------Later----Clay --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Giving you The Business! E.P...... Phone Home ! (1:363/ From: Clay Hartsoe To: David Anderman Msg #19, 30-Jun-90 01:53am Subject: Re: political games Dave, I don't know if you could call NASA a disaster, but they are sure in dip doo over the current shuttle and space telescope situation.-----Seems they have major problems in quality control. They are beginning to remind me of the military in that respect.---Clay --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Giving you The Business! E.P...... Phone Home ! (1:363/ From: Clay Hartsoe To: Kenneth Myers Msg #20, 30-Jun-90 01:56am Subject: Re: NSS protests Chinese launch pricing You don't really believe that old bromide about getting what you pay for do you? Think those AF toilet seats work any better?----Clay --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Giving you The Business! E.P...... Phone Home ! (1:363/ From: John Braue To: Laura Nicol Msg #21, 29-Jun-90 06:40pm Subject: Food Irradiation I hope ths isn't too far off topic... Commercial food irradiation is done with both cobalt-60, which is manufactured for the purpose of irradiating things, and cesium-137, which is extracted from nuclear waste. To the best of my knowledge, Cs-137is not used in this country. A number of studies have shown radiolytes (chemicals produced by bombardment with high-energy gammas) to be both insignificant and harmless. See _Irradiated Foods_, ACSH Report, 10/82, and _Wholesomeness of Irradiated Foods_, WHO tech. Report Series 659. Hanging stuff out the window in space for irradiation is not recommended because: 1) The radiation intensity is not great enough to effectively sterilize the food; 2) space is full of particulate radiation (especially primary cosmics) which, unlike gamma photons, can *induce* radioactivity (i.e., convert stable nuclei to radioactive ones). --- TMail v1.14c * Origin: Bruces Bar and Grill - 23 Lines means Crazy Happy Hours! (1:142/208) From: John Braue To: Kenneth Myers Msg #22, 29-Jun-90 06:42pm Subject: Food Irradiation Forgot to mention in my previous post that the FDA currently approves irradiation for dry spices and pork, and for poultry to control salmonella and other disease-causing bacteria, but for preservation. --- TMail v1.14c * Origin: Bruces Bar and Grill - 23 Lines means Crazy Happy Hours! (1:142/208) From: Billy Rand To: All Msg #23, 29-Jun-90 05:57pm Subject: sociobiology has anybody heard of the new branch of scientists called sociobiologists? according to them, even if we have seven million years until the end of the world, the human race will never send a human being out of the solar system. what thoughts do you have on this? Lazarus Long #54 --- Telegard v2.5 Standard * Origin: The Galaxy's got lots of it! The New Frontier (1:157/601.0) From: Kevin Jackey To: All Msg #24, 29-Jun-90 08:07pm Subject: hubble well, the shuttle fleet is now grounded and the hubble's mirrors are shot. what kind of impression does this make on the population both foreign and domestic????? /s --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: The Magic Castle Louisville, Ky (502)454-0484 (1:11/17) From: Bev Freed To: Jim Eager Msg #25, 30-Jun-90 02:36pm Subject: Re: Endeavour > But then again they are now going to steal parts from Endevour > to fix Columbia. There goes the schedule. Ever think of Leggo erector sets? --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: NSS BBS - Ad Astra! (412)366-5208 *HST* (1:129/104.0) From: Bev Freed To: Guy Hokanson Msg #26, 30-Jun-90 02:42pm Subject: Re: Shuttle Grounded Two rollbacks does not a grounding make. Close, but no cigar. The liquid hydrogen leak could not be simulated in "lab" conditions. So NASA decided to conduct a taking test two weeks early to buy them "insurance" to look at a problem they once thought was unique to the Columbia configuration. Turns out it isn't. It is dependent on temperature and flow. So...they investigate. --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: NSS BBS - Ad Astra! (412)366-5208 *HST* (1:129/104.0) From: Jon Giorgini To: Public Msg #27, 01-Jul-90 01:48pm Subject: Hubble Space Telescope For some reason, the situation with Hubble reminds me of France's early attempts to build the Panama canal. I really hope everyone (public, Congress, and NASA) gets behind some serious action to get Hubble up to spec pronto. I'm the last to throw good money after bad, but I do not think cost should be a criteria here. No one is really even sure what the size of the U.S. economy is -- 15 trillion, 20 trillion dollars, more? The official numbers are just best guesses -- so arguments over shaving a couple billion by backing off a project with such high potential seem light-weight. It is not hype to consider Hubble the premier science effort of the century. If a Wall-street broker discovers his car needs a new transmission, the U.S. economy fluctuates by more than what it would require for an imaginative Hubble repair, forget the cost. A 3 year wait for a compensating fix on a single instrument (WFPC) is unacceptable. Time to get creatively bold. No backing off of this one. --- QM v1.00 * Origin: LoneStar CBCS (512) 258-3643 Austin TX 14400 HST/DS (1:382/35.0) From: Dave Sidor To: Guy Hokanson Msg #28, 01-Jul-90 09:46am Subject: Re: Shuttle Grounded GH> Any comments on the grounding of the shuttle fleet. How about GH> some comments on the Hubble's inability to focus! Not a good GH> decade for Nasa! I fail to comprehend that anybody would send something that expensive that far out in space without testing it first. After spending Billions, they say it would have cost a few million to test. Money for testing should have been in the original budgit and plans. I also fail to see how the gravity on earth could have to large of an affect on alignment to test. Was it housed in tissue paper, or Jello? I'm more familiar with automotive engineering blunders, space engineering blunders are something else. --- via Silver Xpress V2.24 [NR] * Origin: Post Office, Grand Rapids,MI 616-456-5342 USR V.32 (1:228/38) From: Kenneth Myers To: Roy Tellason Msg #29, 01-Jul-90 08:20am Subject: Re: Voyager Update - 06/13/90 RT> perfect sense. I wonder if a sattelite in orbit to act as a RT> relay would be a better deal? With the right orbit, there RT> wouldn't need to be _any_ loss of data, and orienting an RT> antenna away from the earth would tend to help the RT> signal-to-noise ratio some, and it being in an orbital Actually, JPL does use communication satellites while handling downloaded data from Voyager, etc. There are only 3 or 4 DSN receiving stations around the world. When the Australian station, for example is taking data, it is immediately retransmitted to JPL via a standard comsat transponder. In this application, being on the ground or in orbit would not make much difference as far as the signal-to-noise ratio is concerned. The problem is that in order to receive the signals in question the s-n-r has to be incredibly low (hence the cryogenic cooling). The purpose of this cooling is to eliminate (or greatly reduce, anyway) the thermal noise present in any receiver (this is noise generated by the vibration of the atoms of which the receiver is composed; the higher the temperature, the greater this vibration, which generates EM waves at all frequencies). This kind of noise is also known as "white" noise. --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Joe Fischer Msg #30, 01-Jul-90 08:33am Subject: Re: Soyuz JF> I guess you mean the Soviets didn't get started with JF> liquid fueled rockets until after the war, but they sure JF> made and used enough of the solid fuel Katushka (sp?) JF> rockets against the germans. Of course. Solid fueled "war" rockets have been around for thousands of years. I was referring to large, payload carrying, rockets. Unfortunatly, their uses also detoured through war applications, as well. --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: David Anderman Msg #31, 01-Jul-90 11:23am Subject: Re: Mars DA> Therefore, I DA> believe that the Spacecause alerts are (regardless of whether I DA> agree with their content) irrelevant to space development, and DA> worse, cause people like you to burn out on space activism DA> because of lack of results. The key to successful space DA> activism (at least in regard to making politicians do want you DA> want) is to NOT ASK THEM FOR MONEY. At least, not until you DA> have gained their trust, and not unless you are prepared to DA> give them a rational explanation of why they should spend money DA> on your project, as opposed to building a new freeway, or child DA> care. If you don't ask them for money, you may find that you DA> get aq more favorable response, and you (or your NSS chapter) DA> can build a long and fruitful relatioship. There do exist NSS DA> chapters which have done this, and which resulted in, among DA> other things, the chapters being able to produce congressmen DA> for the NSS International Space Development Conference DA> inAnaheim last May, as well as the itnroduction of significant DA> pro-space legislation, the first time that this has happened as DA> the result of NSS activity. Unfortunately, Spacecause alerts DA> tend to get in the way of this activity! First off, the fat lady hasn't finished singing yet (the Senate has not had it's say yet, at least as of this writing). There are a couple of things in your missive with which I must take exception. For one thing, if this or that NSS chapter has built a "fruitful" relationship with some Congresscritter, fine. But getting him or her to show up at a space conference is not, in and of itself, going to bring home the bacon. Neither will any pro-space legislation unless said legislation generates some funds to help pay for the advancement of our cause. And money is what the game is all about. To do what must be done is going to take the kind of money that (currently) only the government has. All the good intentions in the world are not going to get a spacecraft capable of a trip to Mars built. Furthermore, how do you know that the arguments I used in my letters were not rational? And what is mean't by the statement "people like you"? What do I have to do to have my opinions fully accepted? I am not a scientist or an engineer, but I could quite easily work for NASA within my area of expertise (data communications). In fact, many of my peers do or have worked for NASA at JSC (I don't simply bacause it's too damn far away). Playing the political game is all well and good IF it produces RESULTS. And one thing that will get a politician's attention quicker than anything is letting him/her know what your wishes are, and that if they don't act as instructed (phrased in a sutle way, of course) by you, the person who gave them their job, their actions will be remembered come election day. Finally, I would like to hear specifically just how Spacecause's activities are counterproductive. --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: David Anderman Msg #32, 01-Jul-90 11:24am Subject: Re: Private rockets DA> Yes, but what do you do when the government opposes (through DA> bureaucratic means) the development of new rocket technologies DA> by private enterprise? Specifics, please. --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Laura Nicol Msg #33, 01-Jul-90 11:26am Subject: Re: Multi-Generation Ships LN> (those who don't want to leave Earth) can stay if they want. Us LN> wild adventurers would rather leave, since we're not really LN> welcome to stay, anyway. Free thinkers upset the local LN> politics, doncha know.... whoops! my prejudices are showing... Ain't it the truth? On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: All Msg #34, 01-Jul-90 01:16pm Subject: Re: Shuttle/Hubble Dusting off soapbox... Once again it has been demonstrated that Murphy's laws are still around. First the Hubble is shown to have a defect (albeit a correctible one), then the Shuttle fleet is grounded due to the fuel leak problem. The dust has hardly settled from these setbacks, and the naysayers, the followers of The First Law of Dogs, and all the rest of the let's-bash-NASA crowd get in line to have their views put in print and flashed across the country's TV screens. I see where Bruce Murray hasn't wasted any time in pronouncing for the (I've lost count) time, that it's all because of the Shuttle program, etc., ad nauseam, that things are going to hell at NASA. Geez. One of the main reasons that I withdrew from the Planetary Society, back in the early '80s, was the constant bashing of the Shuttle program. Then it was the space station. Finally, when SDI was announced, the PS leadership came unhinged with outrage. I finally had enough of their anti-manned spaceflight bias, and pulled out. Unfortunatly, there are some people out there who can't see the forest for the trees. The one thing that has been conspicuous by it's absence in most of the news reports I've seen are statements indicating that these things WILL happen in any complex endeavor where new and untried technologies are being used. Nor has it been pointed out that much of the blame (if any) for these kinds of things can be placed squarely in the collective lap of the Congress, because of their forcing NASA to operate on a shoestring for the last 20 years, and then complaining when they don't produce 100% perfect results, 100% of the time. I think it's high time that the space agency be made a Cabinet-level organization, and cut out this nonsense of it's having to compete directly with HUD, the VA, etc. for funds. --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Clay Hartsoe Msg #35, 01-Jul-90 06:42pm Subject: Re: Titan Explosion CH> Ken,----I thought that the Titan fuel was in a gel state, CH> rather than in liquid form. Is that incorrect? I was told that CH> was the reason that it was more difficult to work with than the CH> earlier Atlas's or the later solid fuel CH> Minuteman. If the Titan's hypergolic fuel is gelled, it's news to me (not to say it couldn't be; if anyone knows better, sing out). At least one reason hypergolics are hard to work with is that it is extremely caustic. A friend of mine worked on Project Apollo, and told me that when the reaction control system of the Apollo CSM was fueled (it used hypergolics), the crews working at the launch complex had to wear what amounted to full pressure suits. This was to protect the crews in case of a fuel spill. BTW, these suits had no venting, and used (as I recall) an oxygen rebreather good for about 6-8 hours. The standing joke at the Cape was that if you had beans for supper the night before, and then had to wear one of those suits, you would br in a world of hurt until you were pried out of that suit. In fact, I believe they still use these same kinds of suits when fueling the OMS, etc. on the Shuttle. On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Billy Rand Msg #36, 01-Jul-90 06:56pm Subject: Re: sociobiology BR> has anybody heard of the new branch of scientists called BR> sociobiologists? according to them, even if we have seven BR> million years until the end of the world, the human race will BR> never send a human being out of the solar system. what thoughts BR> do you have on this? Lazarus Long #54 Anytime someone with "socio" anything in their title says something "profound", I always look around to see when the other shoe is going to drop. As to "never send a human being out of the Solar System", I say bullsh*t! IF someone figures out a way to make an interstallar trip, you can bet they'll be heading out shortly thereafter. Now if a physicist or an aerospace engineer (i.e., someone entitled to a REAL opinion in this area) had said something like this, then I'd be worried. On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Charles Radley Msg #37, 01-Jul-90 07:13pm Subject: Re: NSS protests Chinese launch pricing CR> I for one do not want my access to the High Frontier CR> controlled by the murderers in Beijing !!! Take it easy. This is essentially what I meant when I said you get what you pay for. I don't think I would trust my payload to something that was built by "slave labor". --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Roy Tellason To: Dennis Mcclain-furmanski Msg #38, 02-Jul-90 07:56pm Subject: Multi-Generation Ships In a message of <29 Jun 90 07:15:14>, Dennis Mcclain-furmanski (1:275/2.1) writes: >"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us will go to the stars." >(OMNI) I have a button that says that. Let's kill this subject line, ok? --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: TechPoint (1:270/101.23) From: Roy Tellason To: Linda Sloan Msg #39, 02-Jul-90 08:03pm Subject: Re: Space enthusuaim; what to do In a message of < 1 Jul 90 14:09:24>, Linda Sloan (1:2222/301) writes: >Perhaps what we need to be thinking is what these computerists can do to >help get us out there with the skills that they have. Perhaps programs >that could simulate space missions or educational programs for all levels >of the educational market. One of the more interesting aspects of my one visit to Goddard was playing for a few minutes with the "computers" they had there. These were equipped with a few push buttons as input devices, and were fairly slow in terms of their performance, but were real interesting as they simulated the effects of making various decisions in different parts of a number of processes. One dealt with putting together different elements of a payload, and selecting a launch vehicle, for example. I'm sure that a souped-up version of this running on common hardware and maybe with some graphics added would make one hell of a commercial product. Just my 2 cents worth... >Mathmatical analysis is needed for CAD and >engineering work. Design and orbital mechanics are difficult subjects >even for working engineers. Satellite communications may be needed for >private spacecraft navigation and tracking. Is there >anything I've left out? Right you are, but this stuff is quite a bit more specialized. Maybe there's an opening in the educational side of software, I dunno... --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: TechPoint (1:270/101.23) From: Mike Pompura To: All Australians Msg #40, 02-Jul-90 11:33am Subject: Road Map - Nasa Decal offer I'm interested in obtaining *new* road maps or city/province maps from the following locations, and am prepared to offer 5 3" Nasa shuttle mission decals in exchange as trade for the first person responding: PERTH BRISBANE ADELAIDE MELBOURNE SYDNEY What I'm looking for is detail, something that I can't get from local map shoppes here in Orlando. Therefore, local residents from the above cities are encouraged to grab a local map of their town, in the event that they indicate an interest im my decal swap. To answer your impending question - yes, I am contemplating a trip over there sometime in the distant future...especially to see those 3 trailer truck-trains you have. My decal offer is only available to the first respondents from each town, as I have little use for multiple identical maps. My mailing address is as follows, and I suggest that you place a return mailing address in LEGIBLE print on the inside of your map parcel: Mike Pompura P.O. Box 160901 Altamonte Springs, Florida 32716-0901 USA I may consider another type of trade/barter for local area newspapers from each of the above cities. --- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION] * Origin: NASA Aerospace Information Reprography 407-774-7371 (1:363/49.0) From: Victor Stukalo To: Clay Hartsoe Msg #41, 01-Jul-90 12:31pm Subject: Re: Titan Explosion In a message of <30 Jun 90 01:44:02>, Clay Hartsoe (1:363/0) writes: CH>Ken,----I thought that the Titan fuel was in a gel state, rather than CH>in liquid form. Is that incorrect? I was told that was the reason that CH>it was more difficult to work with than the earlier Atlas's or CH>the later solid fuel Minuteman.------BTW-----NASA's getting the rasp- CH>berry again, 1.5 billion dollar telescope with defective optics and CH>a shuttle fleet that's grounded again.------Later----Clay CH>--- RemoteAccess 0.03 CH> * Origin: Giving you The Business! E.P...... Phone Home ! Hi Clay The fuel in the old Titans was liquid not a gel . Vic Stukalo 'The High Flying.point ' --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: High Flight (1:203/6.10) From: Kevin Kell To: Charles Radley Msg #42, 02-Jul-90 02:38pm Subject: Hubble Repair Idea " The baffle could be made very quickly. Later on a corrector " plate would take about a year or so to make, and could then be " launched, and inserted between the camera and where it attaches to " the telescope, acting as a mechanical adapter between the two. " There is no need to wait until 1993 when the new camera will be " ready. Regardless of the validity of your repair idea, I believe that the 1993 date that is being bandied about is due to shuttle availability and not when the new camera will be ready. Kev --- via Silver Xpress V2.24 [NR] * Origin: ~ MBBS ~ (KINGSTON) Maximus Alpha-Site (1:249/104) From: Linda Sloan To: Billy Rand Msg #43, 02-Jul-90 12:47pm Subject: Re: sociobiology I wouldn't bet on them being right. It was just such people who said we would never fly to the moon (or just above our heads once upon a time). 7 million years is a long time and few have accurately predicted the future for even 50 years, let alone 500 or a million. We're working to get there, let's keep going. --- Opus-CBCS 1.12 * Origin: EchoMania - A Nice Place To Be. (1:2222/301.0) From: Linda Sloan To: Laura Nicol Msg #44, 02-Jul-90 01:05pm Subject: Re: Experimental Spacecraft Society Laura, good to here there are some people interested in doing some real work around here. I'll be trying an upload of a piece to this echo today. Hopefully it will be readable. Dr. Canough's addr%ss is i.cluded (yes, sh%'s been involve$ with L). --- Opus-CBCS 1.12 * rigin: choMani! - A Ni#e Place To Be. (1:2222/301.0) From: Lin$a Sloan To: All Msg #45, 02-Jul-90 01:15pm Subject: Experimental Spacecraft Society The Experimental Spacecraft Society (ESS) (Edited from June 1990 Spacelines) By Dr. Gay Canough I would like to see as many people as possible get involved in designing and building spacecraft. If we are going to go there, we had better get going. Luckily, organizations such as AMSAT have shown us that it can be done! So let's do more. I am envisioning the day when "experimental spacecraft" means "recreational vehicle" (with family) in low orbit". What to do? The first meeting of ESS will be held at the Midwest Space Development Conference in October. Between now and then, anyone interested should: * Be thinking of what types of missions are interesting and could be carried out by small spacecraft. * Do research on where to get various parts for spacecraft. * Find out the cost of industrial grade parts vs. space- qualified parts. * Find out what tests are normally one on parts to make them space-qualified. * Find out how AMSAT has built their small satellites (many articles can be found in their magazine called QST). * Write a review article on your findings and I will publish it in the ESS newsletter. Send to: ETM Extraterrestrial Materials Inc. P.O. Box 67 Endicott, NY 13760-0067 *Send me your name & address and I will send you the ESS newsletter (no charge). --- Opus-CBCS 1.12 * Origin: EchoMania - A Nice Place To Be. (1:2222/301.0) From: David Green To: Arthur Marsh Msg #46, 02-Jul-90 10:13pm Subject: Re: Mars Needs Women Bozelle (I think that's the spelling) is quite good - he actually tries to convey technical issues to the audience at large so that they know what the heck is *really* going on. Unforunately, he's the exception rather than the rule. The ABC must operate like American media, figuring that people's ears would bleed if they actually had to think. Problem is, they're probably right. Let's face it: as an information medium, TV hit its pinnacle of glory with "Gilligan's Island", and it's been downhill ever since. --- TMail v1.14c * Origin: Scooter's Scientific Exchange - 215-657-5586 (1:273/712) From: David Green To: Jon Giorgini Msg #47, 02-Jul-90 10:16pm Subject: Probability Probability analysis is an integral part of reliability analysis. For example, suppose you have to design a spacecraft to perform a ten-year mission. Each subsystem will have to perform specific functions to perform that mission; each subsystem will be made of boxes, which contain circuits, which consist of components mounted on circuit boards. You start with a circuit to perform a dedicated function - say, gather a certain piece of spacecraft status for telemetry. Once the circuit is designed, it has to be analyzed for reliability. Right away, you put in two circuits (redundancy). Now the circuits have to be manufactured from components. The components have to withstand certain environmental factors - acoustical noise from liftoff, vibration, shock, radiation, and temperature are the most obvious, with semiconductor junction temperatures especially important. The overall design of the spacecraft has to keep all these factors under control. Now that that's all done (it's never all done), you can analyze the overall reliability of the spacecraft. The end result is a reliability diagram, where the subsystem and system reliabilities can be linked together. What you want to avoid are single point failures; however, some defects are inherently so. For example, if your structure breaks apart, it doesn't matter how well designed the rest of the spacecraft is. Eventually, this process (greatly simplified in my explanation) results in a P sub S, or Probability of Survival, or Success. That number will get progressively lower as you move beyond the designed life span, sometimes dramatically so - a 10 year Ps of 0.98 could become 0.88 at 12 years, 0.70 at 14 years, etc. (these numbers are completely arbitrary). Everybody wants a spacecraft with a Ps as close to 1.0 for as much of the mission as possible. Successful missions have been concluded with lower numbers, though. Voyager 2, for example, had a Ps of 0.60 or so once the Saturn encounter was complete. As you are probably aware, NASA did not initially include the funding for the Voyager Grand Tour, but the capability was built in anyway. Now, NASA would *never* fly a planetary mission to Uranus/Neptune with a Ps of 0.6. But since Voyager 2 was in position to take advantage of the planetary alignment after the intended mission was complete, there was nothing to lose (except the mission control costs). At the risk of repeating myself (and being redundant), the engineers and scientists at JPL have been very much unheralded in what they have accomplished with the Voyager spacecraft. I raise my pocket protector in salute. You know, with all the bleating about Hubble's mirrors and The Leaks, you would think that this example of what's *right* with America's space program would have been more widely reported. Geez, you asked me a simple question, and I go and haul out the soapbox. Anyway, probability analysis is an extremely important part of the design process. Ask the guys who rolled the Phobos design. BTW, if you can get a hold of the June 11 New Yorker, there's an *excellent* article called "Annals of Space - The Planetary Community" about Phobos, Russian spacecraft engineering, etc., by Henry S.F. Cooper, Jr. - an insightful and informative essay. --- TMail v1.14c * Origin: Scooter's Scientific Exchange - 215-657-5586 (1:273/712) From: Kenneth Myers To: Dennis Mcclain-Furmanski Msg #48, 02-Jul-90 05:49pm Subject: Re: shuttle to Mars DM> They're going to be isolated for a very long time, with very DM> few people aboard. I think the most critical aspect will be DM> psychology. It'll be along the lines of a long submarine voyage DM> with all factors made worse by an order of magnitude. Just to highlight the main points; the areas of concern in long duration spaceflight are as follows. Long duration weightlessness. Long duration confinement in a closed environment. Long duration exposure to solar and cosmic radiation. Amount of consumables required for long flight times (food, water, air). Each of these items are functions of TIME. The amount of time it will take to get to Mars (or anywhere else in the Solar System, for that matter), using current propulsion technology is simply too damn long. In my view, what is required here is for the relevant organizations to aggressively pursue research and development into new propulsion techniques. There are a number of at least theoretical possibilities (nuclear, ion, fusion pulse [think that's the right name]) that can be looked into. This work is needed in order to reduce travel times to the other planets. If this is done, the aforementioned problems will be much more manageable, if not eliminated entirely. On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Laura Nicol Msg #49, 02-Jul-90 06:00pm Subject: Re: NSS protests Chinese launch pricing LN> NO! The Chinese are just trying to get their foot in the door, LN> here, and they are willing to take a LOSS to do it. That is, LN> their stuff may be sufficient quality to win the market over, LN> because they are WAY under pricing it. I also read (though LN> skeptical still) that they have NO idea what it really is LN> costing them, because of the artificial economy they use. Thus LN> we can't win this as a price war; it's really a political LN> battle. 0 Conceded. However, if the customers beat a path to their door due to their cut rate prices, either of two things are going to happen. Either they will become aware in short order of how much money they are losing, and perforce raise their prices to a more realistic level. OR they will start trying to launch large numbers of payloads, toss several into the Pacific (not what the customer had in mind) because they aren't up to the task (I doubt seriously that they are), and lose customers to other, more reputable, launch operators. On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Laura Nicol Msg #50, 02-Jul-90 07:40pm Subject: Re: Experimental Spacecraft Society LN> I think somebody's calling my name, here. My husband has LN> decided that the solution to my fury at fate is to GO MAKE IT LN> HAPPEN. Space colonization, that is. If Dr. Canough is LN> looking forward to launching people to Luna or Mars, here I am, LN> send me. I have a BS in EE, and 4 years experience with LN> hardware- and software-analysis programs. Not to mention a LN> genius programmer in tow. u I don't have any of these things (programming, yuk!). But if yall need someone to make your modems or T1 muxes sit up and talk, see me. I'm available. "Have breakout box, will travel"... On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Davin Flateau Msg #51, 02-Jul-90 08:29pm Subject: Re: political games DF> OR, establish another organization altogether for DF> atmospheric/flight research), which eventually would be DF> necessary anyway, as space development grows. As the human DF> race moves out into space, we will need an organization that DF> deals with the specific issues of that development. It is a DF> natural separation, but we should ask ourselves if we have DF> reached that point yet. Perhaps we are dancing on that DF> borderline, just barely getting along with an organization DF> such as NASA as it is today. I just hope it doesn't take the DF> lives of another 7 people before we decide. Davin I doubt that we have reached the point of splitting up NASA just yet. It is still a major effort to cross that 100 miles or so of atmosphere just to take that first step into space. Splitting the organization up would be premature at this point. Further, the idea that the way NASA is set up was the cause of the Challenger accident is, in my view, fallacious. Errors were made; no one disputes that. However, it was (and is) inevitable that people were going to get killed while riding this, or any other, rocket. Humans are inherently prone to making mistakes, even in high-risk operations such as spaceflight. The US was damned lucky that so much time passed in the program before any in-flight fatalities occured. Ask the Russians. I don't care how efficient or streamlined any organization is. Mistakes WILL, on occasion, happen. And sometimes people will die as a result. The decision that has to be made (especially by the "leadership" in Washington) is whether the benefits justify the risk. Considering the incredible complexity of the hardware they use, and the multiplicity of ongoing projects there, on balance I think that NASA is doing a pretty damned good job. On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Jon Giorgini To: Public Msg #52, 02-Jul-90 09:17pm Subject: Rename Hubble? The name Hubble Space Telescope was chosen to honor Edwin P. Hubble, an astronomer who determined the universe is expanding. Since the instument won't quite live up to the measure of the man it's named for, maybe it should temporarily be renamed for someone else more appropriate until it is fixed. Let's see. Blurry, out-of-focus, subtly flawed .... hmm .... who could that be? Any suggestions? How about the Timothy Leary Telescope? The June 29 New York Times has the best coverage of the telescope problems I've seen yet. More detailed than has come over the echo so far (the article's too long to type in). It looks like quarter-sized corrective lenses can be fitted to all the instruments, not just WFPC. Those of you who saw the press conference....was it upbeat or strained? From what I can tell, it seems like they will eventually get spec performance out of it -- just a matter of 3 years or so. Hope there's no debris problem in the interim. --- QM v1.00 * Origin: BOARDWALK - Fingers WOC'n, HST Talk'n (1:382/37.0) From: Michael Jezierski To: Guy Hokanson Msg #53, 01-Jul-90 12:01pm Subject: Shuttle Grounded Really. How many delays is this now? And whatever happened to Grandpa Reagan's idea of a space station and the SDI thing? Wasn't that supposed to be up by 1999 or something like that? Opus: Are the Russians still beating the pants off of us in space? Oliver: AARRRRRGGGGHHHHH! Mike Jezierski New Palestine,IN --- via Quickpoint XRS 3.2 * Origin: Indianapolis Ice....1990 IHL Turner Cup Champs (Quick 1:231/30.30) From: Sean Eagan To: All Msg #54, 04-Jul-90 03:04am Subject: Virtual Environments The brunt of this question goes out to the scientists at the Jet Propulsion Lab out in Sunny, HOT California! Can you tell me of the Status of the Virtual environment project you are working on! I hear from a little bird that you are working on said project and that at this point you where having some kind of "bug" in it! What are they? What are you doing to correct this anomoly? Is it true that NASA wants to incorporate this in the Space Staton Freedom? Thank you for your time! Sean Eagan --- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval) * Origin: The New Frontier, we Know your stuff! :Akron OH (1:157/601) From: Martin St-Onge To: Peter E. Yee Msg #55, 03-Jul-90 09:35am Subject: From Quebec. Hi Peter! I writing from Prevost, near Montreal! I'm not very good in english but i try to do my best! So, i read your messages to ALL and i want to know something: where did you take these informations??? Do you work at the NASA??? So, write me soon please! Martin St-Onge --- Maximus-CBCS v1.00 * Origin: Micro-Plus (1:167/316) From: Mark Balaschak To: Kenneth Myers Msg #56, 04-Jul-90 01:48am Subject: Re: shuttle/hubble Well said, and I agree with much the thrust of your argument. But I guess, from my perspective, one reason those cautionary statements about the inevitability of accidents don't get made is because NASA didn't make them. I think that there are people in the organization very aware of that fact -- cf the book "Apollo." But the news mewdia din't make up the idea of the shutle as a"space truck" providing routine access to space out of thin air -- look at NASA's own publications from the late 70's, and the turn-around rates and utilization figures that NASA used to justify Shuttle costs. The kinds of reliability analysis that Feynman faulted in the Chanllenger report seemed more consistent with an organization that did not want to hear about the possibility of failure, even nowI don't hear NASA trumpeting the 1loss expected in 78 flights figure that I read after the Challenger accident. As for Congress and money, well, Congress didn't put a gun to anyone's head and tell them they had tobuild a shuttle for a pittance. Somebody kept saying"Can do" through the cost growth and weight growth, factors that professionals know are inevitable in any large aerospace program. If people wanted NASA to have more money, they'd have it. But I think most people see the space program as a luxury. As for cabinet level NASA, I think it's a great idea, but is it politically realistic given the widespread perception of failure. Look, my boss gives me a job to do, and I keep telling him, "Iit's coming, it's coming, delay's not my fault, it's those people in Personnel, it's the XErox machine, but gee, boss when you get it it's gonna be the greatest, in fact, it's sorta good it's been delayed, gave me a chance to fix some typos that slipped by -- wait a minnit, what'd you say -- The pages are blank? Ohmigosh. I bet I put the paper in the wrong way." Now do I expect a promotion for this??? I think that's peoples' perception of Hubble. Sure, NASA was on the spot, NASA had bad luck. But some might say that NASA led with its chin, and that there isn't luck, only better or worse engineering/management. Heck, I'd feel better if the public were upset. I'd feel better if there was a feeling that it's time to straighten out the problems and get on with what we want to do. But I think the public at large isn't upset. They're just apathetic. Congress critters express righteous indignation at The Way The Money's Been Spent. But to most people, the space program, whether success or failure, is a thirty-second segment in that boring show that comes on before Entertainment Tonight. --- TosScan 1.00 * Origin: (703)-HALLUCINATION * Fairfax, VA * Amiga & ST * (1:109/345) From: Kenneth Myers To: Ralph Buttigieg Msg #57, 03-Jul-90 04:14pm Subject: Re: NSS protests Chinese launch pricing RB> Its a very simple RB> design with a proven track record. I was not aware that they that much of a "track record". How many payloads have they put up? On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Ralph Buttigieg Msg #58, 03-Jul-90 04:51pm Subject: Re: Shuttle To Mars >>Mars, and can the shuttle carry sufficient consumables for the trip? RB> ... RB> It would take about 2 years. For a 5 person crew consuming say RB> 5lbs of consumables a day each (a number I got from Jerry RB> Pournelle's book "A step farther out") I get less then 7 RB> tonnes. The shuttle can hold 25 tonnes in its cargo bay. I would suggest rechecking Pournelle's book. As I recall, that 5 lbs. figure is for oxygen only. There is still food and water to be considered. Also, while the payload weight may be within specs, what about the space within the cargo bay? Is there sufficient room for your supplies? Also, two years cooped up in the shuttle would be a rough row to how. There is still housekeeping power to be considered. A RTG on a long boom? OR more likely, several RTGs. RB> The delta V to get into LEO is at least 7.6 kps. The delta V RB> to get to the Martian Moons and back is 7.3kps. Only RB> Aerobraking for Earth return is assumed. Retrofire into Martian orbit, eh? I think I would prefer to, if possible, upgrade the OMS system with extra thrust and fuel for the return trip, and use ALL that ET fuel to get there quicker (2 years; Geez...). >>airframe have the strength to handle an aerobraking maneuver at the RB> Good question. Is there some expert on aerobraking out there RB> who can tell us?, rather then just asking more questions? I don't know for sure, but would be willing to bet that the shuttle airframe was designed for reentry at orbital speeds, not interplanetary. You would probably rip the wings off in short order. If you tried to ease it back into the atmosphere (a skip glide maneuver) there is a good chance that you would skip right off and find yourself in perpetual solar orbit. >>One other thing, how do you LAND? I'll be damned if I'd travel 100 RB> Send the Mars lander to Mars first on a separate RB> rocket.Then rendezvous at Phobos. Or just go out and RB> streach your legs on Deimos. OK. RB> My greatest doubt at this stage is the reliability of the RB> Shuttle. Hydrogen leaks out at Mars could be rather dangerous. That's the least of your worries. This is a transitory problem. I would be much more concerned about bouncing off the cabin walls after about a year and a half spent in a Hohmann's S trajectory enroute to Mars . Keep it up. You just might come up with something... On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Kenneth Myers To: Chip Richards Msg #59, 03-Jul-90 04:57pm Subject: Re: orbital tanking CR> I *think* it would take just as much energy to split the water CR> molecules into H and O as you would regain by recombining them. CR> Minimum. And that's ignoring energy dissipated through CR> inefficiency in both processes, which is not a safe thing to CR> do. So, the result is, you would expend *much* more energy CR> splitting the moecular bonds than you would regain in CR> combustion. You may have something there. However, I have heard that work along these lines was proceeding, but for the space station. Presumably, small thrusters would use hydrogen and oxygen electrolyzed from water for making adjustments to the station's orbit. On to Mars! --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: Houston, Tx 713-589-0308 (1:106/500) From: Roy Tellason To: Kenneth Myers Msg #60, 03-Jul-91 12:44pm Subject: Re: Voyager Update - 06/13/90 In a message of < 1 Jul 90 08:20:56>, Kenneth Myers (1:106/500) writes: > RT> perfect sense. I wonder if a sattelite in orbit to act as a > RT> relay would be a better deal? With the right orbit, there > RT> wouldn't need to be _any_ loss of data, and orienting an > RT> antenna away from the earth would tend to help the > RT> signal-to-noise ratio some, and it being in an orbital > >Actually, JPL does use communication satellites while handling downloaded >data from Voyager, etc. There are only 3 or 4 DSN receiving stations >around the world. When the Australian station, for example is taking data, >it is immediately retransmitted to JPL via a standard comsat transponder. > >In this application, being on the ground or in orbit would not make much >difference as far as the signal-to-noise ratio is concerned. The problem >is that in order to receive the signals in question the s-n-r has to be >incredibly low (hence the cryogenic cooling). The purpose of this >cooling is to eliminate (or greatly reduce, anyway) the thermal noise >present in any receiver (this is noise generated by the vibration of >the atoms of which the receiver is composed; the higher the temperature, >the greater this vibration, which generates EM waves at all frequencies). >This kind of noise is also known as "white" noise. Interestingly enough, thermal noise is only one source of noise in electronics. With some technologies (CMOS? I don't remember clearly) the noise actually starts to get _worse_ at lower temperatures. My point was, though, that a suitable sattelite receiver could not just make the cryogenic aspects of such electronics easier, but with the proper consideration of orbits, etc. there wouldn't be data missed because _one_ tracking station on the ground was down for some reason or another. When I mentioned signal-to-noise ratio, I was also considering what earthbound sources of noise wouldn't have to be dealt with, since a presumably directional antenna would be pointed away from all that stuff. --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: TechPoint (1:270/101.23) From: Lynndel Humphreys To: All Msg #61, 02-Jul-90 02:34pm Subject: ? As the Voyagers leave the solar system what are the factors involved in their acceleration or deceleration. As the gravitational force of the solar system decreases I would assume they (Voyagers) would accelerate. ....What velocity is expected for these spacecraft? Will they enter ........W A R P %&%#%(&$#('&%$%0( speed? What are their current accelerations? What is their predicted final acceleration rate ie final momentum? --- TBBS v2.1/NM * Origin: Cornucopia TBBS - Winter Park, FL (407) 645-4929 (363/18) From: Mark Rodeghier To: Clay Hartsoe Msg #62, 03-Jul-90 09:43am Subject: Re: Will I get there? CH> MR> from the Apollo program. I can't remember his name but he CH> MR> was part of the Apollo-Soyuz crew, who had never been able CH> MR> to fly previously due to a minor heart problem. CH> MR> CH> MR> Mark CH> You must mean Deke Slayton. Bingo...Give that man a cigar!!! Mark --- RemoteAccess 0.03+ * Origin: Gourmet Delight! Orlando FL (407)649-4136 (1:363/29) From: Mark Rodeghier To: Bev Freed Msg #63, 03-Jul-90 09:51am Subject: Re: Will I get there? BF> who brought you the Conestoga). Although he was not BF> involved in the company's founding, Deke Slayton is the BF> astronaut. I remember seeing him on one of the "SPACE" documentaries that were narrated by Martin Sheen. He spoke about the company as though he was directly involved. BF> think he calls his vehicle BF> "Phoenix." Is the Phoenix the vehicle that is launched from a B-52 into a low Earth orbit? If so, they launched one a few weeks ago and the news said it was a success. BF> Oh BTW...my best friend just purchased some OSC shares. BF> They jumped from $14 to $17 in less than a week. What is OSC? Mark --- RemoteAccess 0.03+ * Origin: Gourmet Delight! Orlando FL (407)649-4136 (1:363/29) From: Mark Rodeghier To: Dennis Mcclain-furmanski Msg #64, 03-Jul-90 09:52am Subject: Will I get there? DM> It's Deke Slayton. He was scrubbed from Mercury because of DM> a heart murmur. DM> SO he ran 10 miles a day until they said he was fit to go DM> up. So I've been told...Thanks for the reply. Mark --- RemoteAccess 0.03+ * Origin: Gourmet Delight! Orlando FL (407)649-4136 (1:363/29) From: Cy Huie To: Ralph Buttigieg Msg #65, 02-Jul-90 08:25pm Subject: shuttle to mars On 01-Jul-90 10:57cst, Ralph Buttigieg wrote: >The longest time that anyone has been in space is about a >year,currently held by the Soviets. A return mission to Mars would >take at least 2 years. I have no doubt that they can do two years if they can do a year. >There are still lots of questions to be answered before a manned >Mars Mission can be atempted. I don't quite follow you. It seems to me that they could leave today if the only consideration was the trip. If they could send Voyger over ten years ago, why can't they send a crew today? Of course, you understand that I'm not taking what they are going to do when they get there into consideration. -Cy- --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: Verbose Ink * WOC'n through SPACE * Big D * (1:124/6125.0) From: Cy Huie To: Dennis Mcclain-Furmanski Msg #66, 02-Jul-90 08:26pm Subject: things On 29-Jun-90 07:02cst, Dennis Mcclain-furmanski wrote: >Even the longest Soviet mission will pale before the one way >trip time to Mars. I think the point in question is whether the time spent has been sufficient to provide the information needed before a substantially longer attempt is made. If the astros were going to be kept in a Mercury capsule, the obvious answer would be 'no.' In a shuttle where they will have room to get up, exercise, move around at will, I think the answer is 'yes.' >They're going to be isolated for a very long time, with very >few people aboard. I think the most critical aspect will be >psychology. As you say, there will be a group of people aboard. How many? A dozen? Interpersonal relationships will be strained there as they would be anywhere. No amount of pre-launch study will change that. >It'll be along the lines of a long submarine voyage with all >factors made worse by an order of magnitude. Actually, it would be more like a ship at sea, since it would not be enclosed. I am not saying this to be trivial. There will be a constant stream of new things to see, and I think that the problems you would suggest would become a factor when the trip was routine and boring. I envy the astronauts selected for this mission, and I would be equally envious if it were being launched today. Let me ask you a question. When you fly, do you still ask for a window seat? I do. Even if the sky is overcast and all I can see below is the layer of clouds, I find the view fascinating. Watching the troughs and thunderheads develop is more interesting than anything on the ground. Well, I think the Mars mission will be like this, but many times better, for the astronauts on the flight. I don't think two years will be too long. I think it will be too short. -Cy- --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: Verbose Ink * WOC'n through SPACE * Big D * (1:124/6125.0) From: Cy Huie To: Richard Jary Msg #67, 02-Jul-90 08:27pm Subject: orbital tanking On 01-Jul-90 17:29cst, Richard Jary wrote: >A nice idea. But to split the water at the rate required by >the engine would require a lot of energy, which would have to >come from somewhere. Oh. Well, then the heat exhausted from the production of thrust could be recaptured to provide the energy to split the water, thereby making for a more safe and efficient process in all respects. Fission produces 80,000,000 kJ/g. Spliting water into its H2 and O2 components requires less than 118 kJ/g. Fission would seem to be adequate. -Cy- --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: Verbose Ink * WOC'n through SPACE * Big D * (1:124/6125.0) From: Cy Huie To: All Msg #68, 02-Jul-90 09:57pm Subject: NASA Select TV A press conference which lasted a little more than an hour was held on NASA Select and carried on C-SPAN tonight. The conference included a discussion of the Hubble Space Telescope and the grounding of the shuttle fleet. Admiral Truly said that the conferences would be held as often and for as long as there was interest. --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: Verbose Ink * WOC'n through SPACE * Big D * (1:124/6125.0) From: Scot Art To: Guy Hokanson Msg #69, 01-Jul-90 09:16pm Subject: Shuttle Grounded > How about some > comments on the Hubble's inability to focus! Not a good decade for > Nasa! It's hardly NASA's fault. In a system as complex as the HST, you can't expect everything to be PERFECT! Unforetunately whereas some incorrect software code can be easily corrected from the ground, or a simple electronics part replaced easily and cheaply (once you organise a shuttle mission), something as basic, as fundamental, and as big as the mirrors in a telescope are not so hard, although I assume the estimated 2 year wait is the lead time for getting a shuttle & crew ready for the mission. I must say I am bitterly disappointed - but I betcha it's STILL better than anything we have down here. Scot --- FD 1.99c * Origin: Am I having Fun yet? (3:712/634) From: Ralph Buttigieg To: Cy Huie Msg #70, 01-Jul-90 09:35am Subject: Re: Shuttle to Mars In a message to Joe Fischer on Jun 26 1990, you wrote: . > On 23-Jun-90 09:35cst, Joe Fischer wrote: > > >The main engines will only run as configured on hydrogen > >and oxygen. .. > Now you're getting down to it. The ET is discarded after launch. > As a vehicle already in orbit does not need an ET, why would we > be limited to the constraints of an ET with H2 and O2. What we > are concerned with is something like hydrazine and yes, an oxidizer. > LOX may be used, of course, but so may dinitrogen tetroxide or > hydrogen peroxide. Water could almost certainly be recovered > by condensation. .. Gentlemen, you are missing the point, if different fuels were used you could not use the current Shuttle. A whole new rocket would be required thereby increasing cost. One of the main attractions of my original suggestion was that because you still use only modified current hardware, the total mission cost may be kept low. Also, the Shuttle burns LO2 &LH2 for a good reason- its about the best fuel currently available. To use other fuels would mean worse performence which could only be compensated by using more fuel, thereby increasing cost (more launches would be required to refuel.) Modify the ET, not the shuttle. .ORIGIN: 302/003 --- PreMail GT Gate v0.91 * Origin: From GTnet via the Black Hole Star Gate! (3:711/1000) From: Ralph Buttigieg To: Scot Art Msg #71, 01-Jul-90 09:35am Subject: Re: Population Outward Bound! In a message to me on Jun 27 1990, you wrote: > "growth rate falling" does not equal "absolute numbers decline" ... ... True, but the population growth rate has been quite modest for most of human history, about 0.1%. Even if it settled down to say, 0.3%, it would take 240 years to double again. I think its safe to assume that food production methods would have improved in that time. ... We do no good for the Space movement if we have to resort to unfounded horror stories to justify Space. .ORIGIN: 302/003 --- PreMail GT Gate v0.91 * Origin: From GTnet via the Black Hole Star Gate! (3:711/1000) From: Richard Jary To: Guy Hokanson Msg #72, 02-Jul-90 10:19am Subject: Re: Shuttle Grounded GH> Any comments on the grounding of the shuttle fleet. How about GH> some comments on the Hubble's inability to focus! Not a good GH> decade for Nasa! There's an article in our local (Sydney) paper about it. One of the main comments was that it adds great weight to those Congressman opposing the amount of money spent on space. Another comment was about the proposed space station. Dr Alex Roland, a former historian for NASA said "They want Congress to give them extra money to put up a space station that is predicated on the assumption that they can make big, expensive technology work the first time, to which Hubble puts the lie. The station also assumes that the shuttle will perform without flaw for the next 10 years. It's hard to pick which proposition is the sillier". (From Sydney Morning Herald, 2-JUL-90) Regards, ... Richard (Networking from Narara) --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: ~\SHORTWAVE POSSUMS BBS/~ OZ's SWL Centre ! (3:713/605) From: Richard Jary To: Bev Freed Msg #73, 02-Jul-90 10:22am Subject: Re: Satellite TV BF> Because satellite TV is related to space commercialization, I BF> carry the TVRO echo. It's on the backbone Probably not here though :-(. Oh well. Regards, ... Richard (Networking from Narara) --- Via Silver Xpress V2.26 * Origin: ~\SHORTWAVE POSSUMS BBS/~ OZ's SWL Centre! (3:713/605) From: Ron Baalke To: All Msg #74, 03-Jul-90 03:12am Subject: Hubble Space Telescope Update - 06/29/90 Date: 2 Jul 90 15:18:00 GMT Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA. Message-ID: <4228@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro Hubble Space Telescope Update June 29, 1990 Since June 26 there has only a little activity in orbit but, as I am sure most of you aware of by now, a lot of action on the ground. The Faint Object Spectrograph (FOS) successfully turned on their Red Side High Voltage (HV) over the past three days. All went very well with no anomalies. The High Speed Photometer (HSP) turned on their Photomultiplier Tube (PMT) detector to check out the "rising counts" problem. A quick look at the data indicated that the problem had disappeared. Unfortunately, analysis of the data showed that this perception was due to differences in the way the two tests were run and that the problem was still there, unchanged from before. A move to the star eps Sco was accomplished and a new series of Bootstrap proposals were started. Things have not gone as well as people were hoping -- guide star acquisitions were failing (cause is under investigation). Some coarse alignment data has been obtained today but it was too early to tell if enough data will be gathered to accomplish the alignment. This Bootstrap runs until 12:30 AM EDT on July 1. The news regarding the Pointing Control Subsystem (PCS) day/night terminator instabilities looks very promising. All indications are that the efforts of engineers may be able to remove most of the disturbances; reducing the ~200 milli-arc-second peak-to-peak oscillation by between a factor of 10 to 100. If this proves true then it would bring the HST stability very close to or within pre-orbital specifications. The delivery schedule of the PCS fix is late July or early August. As for the rest of the PCS system, things are generally going well with the exception of the most recent failed acquisitions. Two of the failures have been traced to "bit flips" in the Fine Guidance Sensors (FGS) caused by the South Atlantic Anomaly (SAA), the remaining failures are under study. All indications are that the FGS S-Curve calibration went well for FGS 2 and 3 (no data on FGS 1) and that significant updates of the S-curve calibration will be implemented for these two FGS's. Analysis of the run of focus images and Wavefront Sensor (WFS) measurements made over the past week appear to show about 0.5 waves RMS field independent spherical aberration at the Optical Telescope Assembly (OTA) focal plane. The cause is, at present, unknown. From all indications the spherical aberration is the only mirror problem -- in all other respects the mirrors are perfect. The current best guess explanation for the aberration is that one of the mirrors has the wrong figure, a wrong conic constant. At the present time it is unknown if the problem lies in the primary or the secondary mirror. Other items of interest: the paraxial to marginal focus is 4 cm, the circle of least confusion is ~1.5 arc second, if you were to assume that the error is in the primary mirror and that the center of the mirror is correct, then there will be ~2 micron error at the edge. In terms of real image quality we are talking about ~70% of the encircled energy in ~0.8 arc second radius and ~12% in 0.1 arcsec (spec was 70% in 0.1 arcsec radius). Also, the current focus produces significant differences in image quality in the 3 FGS's (FGS 1 and 3 have ~0.7 arc-second images, whereas FGS 2 has ~1.4 arc-second images). The primary mirror has 24 force actuators on it but they were designed to remove aberrations other than spherical and are not likely to significantly improve the image. Lots of testing to fully characterize the image on and off axis are being planned for the next weeks. With these data we should have a much better description of the focus of the OTA. Unfortunately, the bottom line appears to be that based on current knowledge it is unlikely that there will be a significant improvement in image quality in the OTA, even after the aberration is better characterized. However, the aberration is fully and easily corrected in the next generation of Scientific Instruments (SI). So, with the installation of Wide Field Planetary Camera II (WFPC II) in 1993 (obviously an accelerated schedule is under study) HST should regain its full imaging characteristics. HST is currently observing eps Sco for Bootstrap activities. To do this the telescope must be off nominal roll. This is producing a cooling of the SPA (Solar Power Array) Blanket. As of this morning it was at -102 C (~-80 C is normal and -100 C is the "red" limit). The European Space Agency (ESA) is studying the impact of the low temperature, if they find that it is potentially harmful, then the spacecraft will be sent back to nominal roll and the focus testing will come to a temporary halt. The Faint Object Camera (FOC) is in hold. FOC diagnostic images in support of focus efforts will start early on July 2. FOS is back in hold. Blue side HV on went very well. Dark count was as expected (~1 x 10^-2), one possible new noisy diode was found but otherwise all was as expected. WFPC is in full operate mode. Next images are scheduled to start at 2 AM EDT on July 1. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |___ Jet Propulsion Lab | baalke@jems.jpl.nasa.gov /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| M/S 301-355 | |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ Pasadena, CA 91109 | --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202) From: Peter E. Yee To: All Msg #75, 03-Jul-90 03:13am Subject: Payload Status for 07/02/90 (Forwarded) From: yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) Date: 2 Jul 90 16:09:15 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA Message-ID: <52960mes.arc.nasa.gov> Newsgroups: sci.space Daily Status/KSC Payload Management and Operations 07-02-90. - STS-35 ASTRO-1/BBXRT (at OPF) - Experiment monitoring continues. BBXRT liquid argon servicing will also be performed today. - STS-37 GRO (at PHSF) - Test batteries will be discharged today. - STS-40 SLS-1 (at O&C) - Module and experiment mechanical operations will be active today along with STT MLI installation. - STS-41 Ulysses (at Hanger AO) - At the VPF, preps for CITE testing will continue today. - STS-42 IML-1 (at O&C) - Rack, floor, and module staging is continuing. - Atlas-1 (at O&C) - Pallet brackets, temperature sensors, and cables will be installed today. - STS-46 TSS-1 (at O&C) - EMP paper closure continues. - STS-47 Spacelab-J (at O&C) - Rack 5, 7 and 11 staging continues. - HST M&R - GSE cables will be installed today. --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202) From: Kevin Romillo To: Ralph Buttigieg Msg #76, 03-Jul-90 05:26pm Subject: Re: Space Enthusiasm; Pump It RB> Good stuff! I fondly remember Danny Dunn's adventures RB> myself. I could'nt RB> agree more with you. Hope you succeed in desire to write RB> some new adventures RB> for the current generation of kids. RB> Being part of the "Current Generation" I really do beleive that there is a lack of interest in space related subjects or science in general! I was V.P. of a local club here that promoted education in science and Aerospace feilds. We were part of a local chapter of the Young Astronauts program. But about 2 years llatr after trying to start something up again in the club, I realized that there was a lack of interest and support in the community. Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is...I hope you succeed too! --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: >Squad Room BBS Va Beach, Va. (804)499-2077< (1:275/430) From: Robert Hansen To: Billy Rand Msg #77, 03-Jul-90 04:18pm Subject: Re: sociobiology To: Billy Rand Regarding the 7,000,000 years and how we won't get a man out of the solar system... Do you mean staying in or out of the ecliptic? If you're going to stay within the same plane as the planets, then I can kind of sympathize with you. It's a _loooooong_ way out there. But, if you go perpendicular to the plane of the planets, it's a whole different ballgame. --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: Open Cluster BBS Paranet Alpha-Beta(sm) (1:283/630.0) From: Bev Freed To: Martin St-Onge Msg #78, 04-Jul-90 12:39pm Subject: Re: From Quebec. All messages from Ron Balke and Peter Yee are imported to this echo via a gateway between Usenet and Fidonet. It gets complicated. The two gentlemen do work for NASA, but they never actually enter their messages into the Space Echo. Keith Dickinson in Texas has the cumbersome duty of forwarding Usenet messages into the Space Echo. Bev Freed -- Space Echo Moderator and general pest --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: NSS BBS - Ad Astra! (412)366-5208 *HST* (1:129/104.0) From: Clay Hartsoe To: Dennis Mcclain-furmanski Msg #79, 04-Jul-90 03:44am Subject: Titans Still haven't received anything via Apple.net, but the board I normally get that echo through has been having problems right and left lately.-----Can't afford any more raps on the knuckles, Bev got me again last week for repeating to much of prior messages. Don't want to end up in the Fido Dog House.-----Later----Clay --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Giving you The Business! E.P...... Phone Home ! (1:363/ From: Clay Hartsoe To: Laura Nicol Msg #80, 04-Jul-90 03:49am Subject: Re: The Omnibus Space Commercialization Act Don't have a problem with more space involvement by other interest, do have a problem with potential tax abuse. Check out the prior abuses of tax breaks that were designed to promote a good project. Hope some way can be worked out so the breaks will be used in the proper manner.-----Later ----Clay --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Giving you The Business! E.P...... Phone Home ! (1:363/ From: Clay Hartsoe To: Kenneth Myers Msg #81, 04-Jul-90 03:55am Subject: Re: Titan Explosion KM> 6-8 hours. The standing joke at the Cape was that if you KM> had beans for KM> supper the night before, and then had to wear one of those KM> suits, you would KM> br in a world of hurt until you were pried out of that suit. Maybe they should have vented the suits into the fuel tank and put that potential bean gas to good use. They would have had to use a one way valve of course.-----Later-----Clay --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Giving you The Business! E.P...... Phone Home ! (1:363/ From: Clay Hartsoe To: Mark Rodeghier Msg #82, 04-Jul-90 03:58am Subject: Re: Will I get there? Poor old Deke got the shaft from the start. He was one of the original astronauts but wasn't allowed to go on the earlier flights. Turns out the condition wasn't really that bad.----Later----Clay --- RemoteAccess 0.03 * Origin: Giving you The Business! E.P...... Phone Home ! (1:363/ From: Bev Freed To: Mark Rodeghier Msg #83, 04-Jul-90 08:24pm Subject: OSC and Pegasus Deke Slayton is very much involved with SSIA. > Is the Phoenix the vehicle that is launched from a B-52 No. You're thinking of the Pegasus from OSC -- Orbital Sciences Corporation -- and the Hercules Corporation. Does that also answer your question regarding the OSC stock? --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: NSS BBS - Ad Astra! (412)366-5208 *HST* (1:129/104.0) From: Dave Funk To: Kenneth Myers Msg #84, 04-Jul-90 01:07pm Subject: Re: Multi-Generation Ships > On to Mars! why stop at Mars? ;-) Dave Funk, 1:106/1555.0 DADS are parents too!!! --- D'Bridge 1.30/002335 * Origin: Texas Fathers for EQUAL Rights From: Matt Drury To: Lynndel Humphreys Msg #85, 04-Jul-90 09:32am Subject: ? > ....What velocity is expected for these spacecraft? Will they enter > ........W A R P %&%#%(&$#('&%$%0( speed? If you reach the speed of light, you turn into a pumpkin. That's been known since the days of Pohl. --- ZMailQ 1.12 (QuickBBS) * Origin: The System(tm) | 407.859.2243 | Many Nets, but for you, (1:363/69.0) From: Joe Conner To: All Msg #86, 04-Jul-90 02:16pm Subject: Apollo 18 Does anyone have the Docs to Apollo 18 mission to the moon if so please send me a message ] Thanks... --- XBBS 1.13 & XST20b * Origin: Tower of London BBS (1:170/603) From: Allan Lewis To: Laura Nicol Msg #87, 02-Jul-90 08:04pm Subject: Re: Will I get there? * Replying to a message originally to Bev Freed LN > > Well, there is a company which (a while back) proposed to cremate LN > your LN > > remains, reducing them to VERY small volume, which they would pour LN > into a LN > > small capsule. When enough capsules were collected, they would LN > launch the LN > > "mausoleum" into orbit. LN > > LN > > Anyone else remember this one? LN > > LN > You bet! I think they got severely suppressed; more LN > clutter in orbit we LN > DON'T need! They might have got one launch off, but I LN > don't think so. LN > c LN > LN > LN > --- QM v1.00 LN > * Origin: Dallas-Ft Worth Nat'l Space Society: LN > 817-261-6641 (1:130/34.0) If they want mausoleums in space, they could use some trojan points associated with the outer planets. Bit expensive at this point, though. But there'd be no clutter problem. Al --- TS+RA.03(+)+FD=PERFECT [RT] * Origin: Galen BBS..*Australian Computer Help* [680-4897] (3:713/609) From: Rick Jones To: Richard Jary Msg #88, 02-Jul-90 07:43pm Subject: Re: Satellite TV BF>> Because satellite TV is related to space commercialization, I BF>> carry the TVRO echo. It's on the backbone RJ> Probably not here though :-(. Oh well. TVRO used to be on the backbone and then dissappeared. I did start to bring it in myself through Monitor World, but it vanished when the BBS went bang!! MW will be back on the air again soon and may pick it up again. It all depends on my sponsor!! Bye4Now Rick. --- via Silver Xpress V2.26 [NR] * Origin: ~\SHORTWAVE POSSUMS BBS/~ OZ's SWL Centre! (3:713/605) From: Michael Groeneweg To: Rick Jones Msg #89, 01-Jul-90 12:17pm Subject: Re: Radio > RJ> ... I'm Derryn Hunch - That's Bullshit > > Richard, I get the feeling that you have probably just > confused tens of > thousands of overseas people!! :-)) > > Rick. > Personally, I think he's Kylie Minogue. I wish I was?!?! I should be so lucky! --- QM v1.00 * Origin: The Perth Omen. Western Australia's First BBS (3:690/636.0) From: Peter E. Yee To: All Msg #90, 04-Jul-90 03:23pm Subject: NASA Headline News for 07/02/90 (Forwarded) From: yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) Date: 2 Jul 90 18:10:35 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA Message-ID: <52966mes.arc.nasa.gov> Newsgroups: sci.space ----------------------------------------------------------------- Monday, July 2, 1990 Audio Service: 202/755-1788 ----------------------------------------------------------------- This is NASA Headline News for Monday, July 2......... Preparations at the Kennedy Space Center pad 39-A for the upcoming STS-38 launch scheduled for mid-July included a special tanking test held on the orbiter Atlantis last Friday. The test verified a leak in the orbiter-to-external tank 17-inch umbilical area. Leak detectors exterior to the umbilical revealed hydrogen shortly after the fueling process went from a slow fill to a fast fill mode. Engineers report it appears the leak is in a cavity between the orbiter and external tank umbilical plates. Although the leak's precise location has not yet been identified, tests indicate the 17-inch line between the orbiter and the external tank used to feed the hydrogen to the orbiter's three main engines is contributing to the leak. Data from the tests will continue to be reviewed. At this time, the external tank has been drained of the liquid hydrogen used in the test. Thorough inspections are being performed in the orbiter's aft compartment. Until the cause of the leak has been determined, further processing of the STS-38 vehicle has been suspended. Although similar to the leak that caused the postponement of the STS-35/Astro-1 mission, the leak appears to be smaller than the one detected during the tanking exercise on the STS-35 vehicle prior to its rollback to the Vehicle Assembly Building and demating. Meanwhile, at the KSC Orbiter Processing Facility, the 17-inch disconnect has been removed from the Space Shuttle Columbia. It is being prepared for shipment to the vendor for further testing and analysis. The disconnect from the Shuttle Endeavour arrived at KSC last Thursday night and is scheduled to be installed in the orbiter Columbia this week. Also at KSC, preparations are underway to install the three main engines on the orbiter Discovery this week. Orbiter structural inspections and routine testing of all the orbiter's systems will continue as planned. The Discovery is being prepared for the STS-41/Ulysses flight scheduled for launch in October. A progress update on the Space Shuttle activity will be discussed on NASA Select TV. A news briefing will be held with Associate Administrator for Space Flight Dr. William Lenoir and Space Shuttle Director Robert Crippen on Tuesday, July 3 at 4:00 P.M. EDT. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Here's the broadcast schedule for Public Affairs events on NASA Select TV. All times are Eastern. Monday, July 2......... 10:30 A.M. Media briefing with NASA Administrator Richard H. Truly, Associate Administrator for Space Science And Applications Dr. Lennard Fisk and Associate Administrator for Space Flight Dr. William Lenoir at NASA Headquarters. Tuesday, July 3........ 4:00 P.M. Media briefing with Associate Administrator for Space Flight Dr. William Lenoir. Thursday, July 5....... 11:30 A.M. NASA Update will be transmitted --------------------------------------------------------------- All events and times are subject to change without notice. These reports be filed daily, Monday through Friday at 12:00 P.M., EDT. This is a service of the Internal Communications Branch, NASA HQ. Contact: JSTANHOPE on NASAmail or at 202/453-8425. --------------------------------------------------------------- NASA Select TV: Satcom R2R, Transponder 13, C-Band, 72 Degrees West Longitude, Audio 6.8, Frequency 3960 MHz. --------------------------------------------------------------- --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202) From: Ron Baalke To: All Msg #91, 04-Jul-90 03:26pm Subject: Hubble Investigation Board Named (Forwarded) Date: 2 Jul 90 20:42:13 GMT Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA. Message-ID: <4231@jato.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro HUBBLE BOARD OF INVESTIGATION NAMED Dr. Lennard A. Fisk, NASA Associate Administrator for Space Science and Applications today appointed a Hubble Space Telescope Optical Systems Board of Investigation to review, analyze and evaluate the facts and circumstances regarding the manufacture, development and testing of the Hubble Space Telescope Optical Telescope Assembly. The board will be chaired by Dr. Lew Allen, Director, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. The other members of the board are: Charles P. Spoelhof (Retired) Vice President, Eastman Kodak Co. Pittsford, N.Y. George A. Rodney Associate Administrator for Safety and Mission Quality NASA Headquarters, Washington, D.C. John D. Mangus Head, Optics Branch, Space Technology Division NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. Dr. R. (Bob) Shannon Professor of Astronomy, Optical Sciences Center University of Arizona, Tucson Dr. Roger Angel Professor of Astronomy, Steward Observatory University of Arizona, Tucson Sarah Keegan, NASA Public Affairs Officer, and Gary Tesch, NASA Deputy General Counsel, will support the board as public affairs advisor and counsel, respectively. ___ _____ ___ /_ /| /____/ \ /_ /| ___| | | | |__) |/ | | |___ Jet Propulsion Lab | baalke@jems.jpl.nasa.gov /___| | | | ___/ | |/__ /| M/S 301-355 | |_____|/ |_|/ |_____|/ Pasadena, CA 91109 | --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202) From: Peter E. Yee To: All Msg #92, 04-Jul-90 03:23pm Subject: Shuttle Status for 07/02/90 (Forwarded) From: yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) Date: 2 Jul 90 18:07:48 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA Message-ID: <52962mes.arc.nasa.gov> Newsgroups: sci.space.shuttle KSC SHUTTLE STATUS - MONDAY JULY 2, 1990 10 a.m. STS-38 - ATLANTIS (OV 104) - LAUNCH PAD 39-A Today, a pressurization test of the external tank is planned to gather additional data about leakage at the 17-inch disconnect area. The tank will be pressurized to flight level, or 30 pounds per square inch, with helium while leakage at the 17-inch discon- nect is monitored. In addition, the tank pressure will be decreased by increments of 5 psi to collect baseline leakage con- ditions at ambient temperatures. A special tanking test last Friday verified a leak in the orbiter-to-external tank 17-inch umbilical area. Leak detectors exterior to the umbilical indicated high concentrations of hydrogen during the loading activity. Data from the tests are being reviewed. This weekend, workers moved the Rotating Service Structure in place around the vehicle and established access to various parts of the orbiter. Thorough inspections of the aft compart- ment have been performed and the special instrumentation devices were calibrated. Nothing unusual was noted from those inspec- tions. No leakage was detected in the aft compartment during last Friday's test. The configuration of the vehicle will be main- tained until further direction from the team investigating the leak. STS-35 - COLUMBIA (OV 102) - OPF BAY 2 The 17-inch disconnect was removed from Columbia Friday and shipped to the Rockwell plant in Downey, Calif. on Saturday for testing and analysis. Preparations are underway to install the disconnect from the Shuttle Endeavour on Columbia this week. Astro's Broad Band X-ray Telescope will be serviced with ar- gon today. STS-41 - DISCOVERY (OV 103) - OPF BAY 1 Main engine 1 is being installed today. The other two en- gines are scheduled to be installed today and tomorrow. Repairs to Discovery's right payload bay door are continuing. Orbiter structural inspections and routine testing of all the orbiter's systems were among the activities worked this week. Thermal protection system operations are underway on all areas of the vehicle. Tests are continuing on the two orbital m!neuveri.g system pod3 at the Hypergo,ic Main4enance Facility. Disco6ery is being prepar%d for 4he STS-41/Ulyss%s fligh4, scheduled for launch in October. STS-41 SOL D ROCKE BOOSTES - VAB The right forward center segment is scheduled to be trans- ferred to the Vehicle Assembly Building tomorrow for mate to the stack in the next few days. --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202) From: Peter E. Yee To: All Msg #93, 04-Jul-90 03:23pm Subject: Status briefing on shuttle leak investigation (Forwarded) From: yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) Date: 2 Jul 90 18:13:44 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA Message-ID: <52967mes.arc.nasa.gov> Newsgroups: sci.space.shuttle Mark Hess/Ed Campion Headquarters, Washington, D.C. July 2, 1990 (Phone: 202/453-8536) N90-48 EDITORS NOTE: STATUS BRIEFING ON SHUTTLE LEAK INVESTIGATION Associate Administrator for Space Flight Dr. William B. Lenoir and Space Shuttle Director Robert L. Crippen will hold a media briefing in the NASA Headquarters 6th floor auditorium on Tuesday, July 3 to discuss the results to date of the investigation into the hydrogen leaks on Space Shuttles Columbia and Atlantis. The briefing will begin at 4 p.m. EDT and will be carried live on NASA Select television via Satcom F2R, Transponder 13, at 72 degrees West longitude, frequency 3960.0 MHz. Status briefings on the efforts to find the leaks on the Space Shuttle system will be held periodically until the problem is resolved. --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202) From: Peter E. Yee To: All Msg #94, 04-Jul-90 03:23pm Subject: LH2 leak investigation (Forwarded) From: yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) Date: 2 Jul 90 18:14:51 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA Message-ID: <52968mes.arc.nasa.gov> Newsgroups: sci.space.shuttle Mark Hess Headquarters, Washington, D.C. July 2, 1990 (Phone: 202/453-4164) LH2 LEAK INVESTIGATION History During the launch attempt for the STS-35 mission on May 29, 1990, a hydrogen leak, in excess of limits established to maintain safe operating conditions, was detected by onboard hazardous gas detection systems. Leakage was detected both in the aft compartment and external to the liquid hydrogen external tank/orbiter umbilical assembly. A subsequent tanking test, that incorporated special ground instrumentation, further isolated the leak to the free space between the two halves of the umbilical assembly. The umbilical provides capability to load propellant into the external tank and transfer propellant from the external tank to the Space Shuttle main engines during launch. The umbilical disconnect assembly is the separation point between the orbiter and the external tank after main engine cutoff. The design of the umbilical disconnect has remained the same throughout the Shuttle flight program except that a safety modification to incorporate a valve latch, which precludes inadvertent closure, was authorized after the Challenger accident. Data from the tanking test determined that the design changes incorporated by this modification did not contribute to the leakage. Following rollback and orbiter demate, the LH2 External Tank (ET) side of the umbilical was removed and tested at Rockwell International, Downey, Calif. The testing was performed under precisely controlled liquid hydrogen test conditions. No leaks were detected. On June 29, 1990, NASA conducted a modified propellant loading test of the STS-38 Space Shuttle vehicle to ensure the safety and integrity of the orbiter/ET umbilical. The test revealed a hydrogen leak. The results indicate the leak is in the vicinity of the umbilical mating plates. It appears to be primarily from the 17-inch line but possibly with a contribution from the 4-inch line. The leak is flow rate and temperature dependent. It is not as high as STS-35 but it exhibits many of the same characteristics. Current Status An extensive investigation is being performed to isolate the source of the leakage observed on both the STS-35 and STS-38 vehicles. Columbia is in the Orbiter Processing Facility (OPF). The orbiter side of the LH2 umbilical from Columbia was shipped to Rockwell-Downey on Saturday and is being installed in a test stand which can test the orbiter and ET umbilicals in a mated configuration. Engineers expect to begin cryogenic hydrogen testing of the umbilical on Thursday to further isolate the source of the leak. In the interest of safety, all potential leak sources, including the very low probability of a parent metal flaw, are being investigated. A detailed investigation of all aspects of the STS-35 and STS-38 component history, including acceptance test procedure requirements and data, and design changes being performed. Processing of the STS-38 vehicle has been suspended. Engineers are continuing troubleshooting efforts on the Shuttle vehicle at Launch Pad 39-A. Today, the external tank will be pressurized and leak checks conducted in the area of the orbiter- to-external tank umbilical. Another special tanking test is being considered using special leak detection sensors to help pinpoint the leak's location. Program Team Leonard Nicholson, Deputy Director, Space Shuttle Program, will lead the NASA/industry team charged with analyzing the cause of the leak and determining corrective actions. Under Nicholson, four work teams have been formed: - Design and Analysis Team - to assess the flight hardware and ground support equipment hardware designs, fabrication and test programs, and assess ground processing procedures to ensure compliance with design intent. - Hardware Processing Team - to review all Kennedy Space Center procedures associated with the ET and orbiter processing, including "as run" data, problem reports, processes, procedures and personnel certification. - Data Analysis Team - to analyze data from the tanking tests and applicable launches to identify trends, define additional tests and instrumentation needed to understand and isolate the source of the leak and review all tests currently planned for completeness and appropriateness. - Fault Tree/Test Requirements Team - to develop and provide to the other teams a fault tree identifying failure scenarios, and identify additional tests and data requirements. An independent team, headed by Wayne Littles, Deputy Director of Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, Ala., also has been formed with senior NASA and contractor representatives who are experts in liquid hydrogen technology. While they will work independently of the investigation teams, they will report to Nicholson, and support the team, as appropriate. Acceptance Test Procedure (ATP) The ET/Orbiter umbilical is fully developed and qualified flight hardware that has met all of the functional requirements stipulated by specification. An acceptance test procedure, which is a screen to verify the manufacturing process for each component delivered, has been developed from performance requirements. The ATP stipulates the use of liquid nitrogen as an acceptable substitute for liquid hydrogen, which is extremely dangerous and volatile to handle. The disconnect component specification allows a maximum hydrogen leakage of 200 standard cubic inches per minute (scim) for the mated disconnect assembly at cryogenic temperature (150 scim for the ET and 50 scim for the orbiter). The ATP has a more stringent limit on the ET disconnect, which is 50 scims. This allowable leakage rate was established to compensate for the temperature and media differences between liquid nitrogen and liquid hydrogen. The orbiter disconnect underwent ATP testing with liquid hydrogen because there are a limited number of production units. Future Steps Until the leak investigation is completed, Shuttle flights have been suspended. Returning the Shuttle fleet to flight status is the highest priority in the Space Flight Office, and every available resource within the Shuttle program is being brought to bear on solving this problem. NASA is confident that the source of the leak can be isolated quickly and the problem fixed with minimum disruption to the Shuttle flight program. Independent of these events, a component redesign to replace the current umbilical disconnect with a new design has been underway and is well into the preliminary design phase. The new disconnect incorporates significant safety improvements, including redundant seals at all locations. --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202) From: Bob Calhoon To: Linda Sloan Msg #95, 04-Jul-90 09:38pm Subject: Re: Experimental Spacecraft Society Linda, Hi, here is my address for the newsletter. Robert J. Calhoon P.O. Box 397 Chestertown, Md. 21620 Now if we could get the building facaulties of say boeing or North american Rockwell at cost we probably can come up with designs from interested parties who are expert in these fields of engineering design and fab. tnx Bob --- * Origin: Pegasus BBS -- Chestertown, MD (Opus 1:150/301) From: Bob Hawkins To: Jon Giorgini Msg #96, 04-Jul-90 12:12pm Subject: Re: Hubble Correction; Ground-based? > Anyone know what would be involved in a ground-based computer > correction for the mirror geometry? > The technique is called "deconvolution." The actual, measured image is the result of "convolving" the true, infinite- resolution image with the "instrument function," which tells how the instrument degrades the image. Determining the instrument function is easy -- since a star is a point source, the image of a bright star is just the instrument function. (If you must know, you Fourier-transform the blurred image and the instrument function, divide the former by the latter, then inverse- Fourier-transform the result to get the corrected image.) The tradeoff is that the signal-to-noise ratio goes down as the resolution goes up. Therefore, deconvolution is only useable when you have signal-to-noise to burn, i.e. on bright sources. Unfortunately, the nature of the astronomy business is that the faint sources are usually the most interesting. I'm not a fan of deconvolution. The basic problem is that the image contains only a certain amount of information. Deconvolution can redistribute that information, but it can't create any that wasn't measured. The problem with the Hubble mirrors means that it doesn't collect as much information as it should, and nothing short of fixing the telescope will change that. (BTW, Charles Radley suggested adding a "circular baffle" or aperture stop to the scope, to improve resolution at the cost of dimmer images. "Stopping down" the scope like this is performing a deconvolution optically rather than in a computer. The dimmer image reduces the signal-to-noise just like a deconvolution would.) --- QuickBBS 2.64/O (Reg) * Origin: M E T R O P O L I S (617) 721-7360 [MABOS] (1:101/149) From: Michael Jezierski To: Bev Freed Msg #97, 04-Jul-90 07:59am Subject: Space Echo Rules Just to let you know, I usually am on the Amateur Radio Echo and there "Handles" are NOT permitted, and the FidoNet people sent us NetMails stating that no handles are permitted ANYWHERE in FidoNet echoes. Maybe your rule might have to be amended eventually by the powers that be. Mike Jezierski New Palestine,IN Bitnet: IWNQ500@INDYVAX Internet: IWNQ500@INDYVAX.iupui.edu --- via Quickpoint XRS 3.2 * Origin: Indianapolis Ice....1990 IHL Turner Cup Champs (Quick 1:231/30.30) From: Kurt Eichenberger To: Dave Sidor Msg #98, 03-Jul-90 08:36am Subject: Re: Shuttle Grounded Re your recent question concerning the effects of gravity on Hubble mirror alignment: The real problem with testing the hubble optical system in the gravity field of the earth is that the field *bends* of flexes the glass enough to make meaningful readings extremly difficult to get. The mirrors were deliberatly made much thinner than a comparable mirror to be used on earth in order for it to be light enough to lift and place in orbit (the usual ratio of width to depth is about 6 to 1 ) The hubble mirrors were ground so as to have a cumulative wavefront error of approximatly 1/60 of a wavelenghth of light in the middle of the visible spectra. The heat from your hand, resting briefly on such a mirror would induce stresses from the slight expansion of the glass that would disrupt the shape of the mirror for hours. NASA estimated that construction of devices to hold the mirror to the right shape for optical testing on earth would cost many Hundreds of millions of dollars. Not just millions of dollars. I imagine they would have done this however if they had had the money. So they bet they could test the mirrors seperatly rather than together. They lost the bet. I think this is the right explanation. Comments? --- TBBS v2.0 * Origin: AJIS - Downtown Raleigh, NC 919-832-0035 (151/105) From: Cy Huie To: Chip Richards Msg #99, 05-Jul-90 07:40am Subject: orbital tanking On 01-Jul-90 13:04cst, Chip Richards wrote: >Now, I'm no physicist, and there *are* some on the echo, but >I'll risk it. I know the feeling. However, physicists need mental exercise, too. >I *think* it would take just as much energy to split the water >molecules into H and O as you would regain by recombining them. I know that this would not be true in the case of fusing deuterium. The yield would be 560,000,000 kJ/g fused as opposed to the less than 118 kJ/g required to split water. Theoretically, then, this would almost certainly be no contest. To be realistic, we would need to calculate the yield from burning hydrogen as opposed to the energy required to produce the hydrogen and oxygen at the required rate. My assumption would be that every Joule yielded is required for thrust, so that virtually any added demand would make the system unworkable. >Maybe launch a ship with solid boosters, let it loll around in orbit >soaking up the rays, slowly ripping its tankful of water into hydrogen >and oxygen. Once it was done, blast off for parts beyond. I don't really think the ship would have use for that kind of power once in orbit. In consideration of the fact that electricity could easily be produced in an amount which would be needed to produce fuel and oxidizer at a rate neccesary for thrust in microgravity, this could well be practical at this moment. Also, consider that the products of combustion would be fuel which could be recaptured (to a considerable degree), and that therefore the ship just might be able to make an extended trip on recycled fuel. >Or maybe some of the abovementioned waste heat from combustion >could indeed be used to lyse water in real-time. The inefficiencies involved would probably be greater, it could certainly contribute to the process. We need numbers to have a better idea of where we stand. >I dunno what numbers would be involved--anybody? Me neither. Anybody? -Cy- --- Opus-CBCS 1.13 * Origin: Verbose Ink * WOC'n through SPACE * Big D * (1:124/6125.0) From: Arthur Marsh To: all Msg #100, 03-Jul-90 10:55pm Subject: future of Woomera from the Adelaide Advertiser, Tuesday July 3, 1990. The future of the Woomera rocket range is in doubt following the shelving of a $250 million plan to open up the facility for commercial use. ... The Federal Government decided to open the famous rocket range for commercial use in 1988 and had hoped it would be used to test weapons, radar and guidance systems. ... --- msged 1.999.7 * Origin: All Hours, Hawthorndene, South Australia (3:680/803.11) From: Alan Haynes To: Laura Nicol Msg #101, 01-Jul-90 07:15pm Subject: Re: Multi-Generation Ships OOH those puns!! I guess a bloke who buys his house next to mum is a bit of a worry.Particulary when he's running for/or in office. Anyway,just the same we (all of us)need to look after the place anyway.The place(big blue ball)still needs people who,at the very least,rock the boat,just to make life interesting and to keep those'nextdoor to mum' fellas under scrutiny.. I dont know if I'd go off into the wide black yonder....unless they find gold in them thar worlds!!! Now where have I heard that before??? The same idea,just the scale is larger in scale but not relatively though,if you consider the jump the folks made back about 200-300 years ago!! Can you you tell me what echo's are on your bbs,while Im typing away here.?? I dont think prejudices (especially yours) are showing and that it would be catastrophic. A.H. Ps..what would you do on a multi generation ship anyway??(knowing you'd die on it?? --- TMail v1.12b * Origin: Commodore Pursuit TBBS - Sydney, Aust (02) 522-9144 (3:712/512) From: Alan Haynes To: Ralph Buttigieg Msg #102, 01-Jul-90 07:35pm Subject: Re: Population Outwa Sorry Im not going to quote,but I think you'll know what Im on about. When you say 'rich' you mean economicly or morally? I think the less people on earth to do what we seem so damn good at the better.I get a big pang of guilt as a human being,when I see people with the idea that the earth is there for the plundering.Im not saying thats what you're saying necessarily. Are you sure the poplulation is falling?? I just heard a fortnight ago that the Australian population has passed the 17million mark and that's a big worry.We dont have all that big an area to use thats not arid.There are some folks here that say that the continent can handle another 10million!! Gotta go,no time.. look forward for youre reply.. --- TMail v1.12b * Origin: Commodore Pursuit TBBS - Sydney, Aust (02) 522-9144 (3:712/512) From: Ross Chilvers To: Davin Flateau Msg #103, 02-Jul-90 08:25pm Subject: Space and the White House if thats the case the space program must be doomed and to answer your question .....nothing i'd guess --- via RA/XRS 3.2 * Origin: My eXpress Response System Point-Less Point (RAX 3:712/707.102) From: Ralph Buttigieg To: Laura Nicol Msg #104, 04-Jul-90 05:42pm Subject: Re: Nss Protests Chinese Launc In a message to Kenneth Myers on Jul 1 1990, you wrote: > NO! The Chinese are just trying to get their foot in the door, here, and > they are willing to take a LOSS to do it. That is, their stuff may be > sufficient quality to win the market over, because they are WAY under > pricing it. I also read (though skeptical still) that they have NO idea .. I find this rather odd. Aussat launched their first satellite on the Space Shuttle at a special discount price, thereby being heavily subsidised by the US taxpayers (thank you ver much) and now that we are launching our next satellite on a Chinese rocket we have American rocket companies complaining about "unfair competion". How do you think it sounds like down here? .ORIGIN: 302/003 --- PreMail GT Gate v0.91 * Origin: From GTnet via the Black Hole Star Gate! (3:711/1000) From: Ralph Buttigieg To: Charles Radley Msg #105, 04-Jul-90 05:42pm Subject: Re: Nss Protests Chinese Launc In a message to Kenneth Myers on Jun 29 1990, you wrote: > No , with the Chinese you do NOT get what you pay for. The are a state > run operation and do not conform to the western standards of reasonably > fair market pricing. The Chinese use SLAVE LABOR to build their > vehilces (and everything else), the whole country is on big prison. > This means they can underpay all thweir workers, and undercut any price > anybody in the west can offer. This is extremely dangerous, because it ... I'm not sure about the slave labour, but it is certainly cheap. I have spoken to a person from Aussat who has actually seen the Chinese launch site and rockets. There rockets are designed for simplicity and reliability and the launch site is simple but adequate. Of course their labour is cheap as they still are a developing country. ... Would you be happy if say the Indians or Taiwainese offered cut-price launches? Or a democratic USSR? ... I find this atitude distrubing from the land of free enterprise- "competion is good as long as we are winning" seems to be the atitude. .ORIGIN: 302/003 --- PreMail GT Gate v0.91 * Origin: From GTnet via the Black Hole Star Gate! (3:711/1000) From: Tim Kuchta To: Peter E. Yee Msg #106, 05-Jul-90 10:13am Subject: Re: LH2 leak investigation (Forwarded) -> -> from the 4-inch line. The leak is flow rate and temperature -> dependent. It is not as high as STS-35 but it exhibits many of -> the same characteristics. -> Could this be a phenonenon related to the age of the shuttle, or environment? If so, is it possible that this will affect all shuttles at points in the future? --- Opus-CBCS 1.12 * Origin: Dallas-Ft Worth Nat'l Space Society: 817-261-6641 (1:130/34.0) From: Peter E. Yee To: All Msg #107, 05-Jul-90 10:22am Subject: NASA Headline News for 07/03/90 (Forwarded) From: yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) Date: 3 Jul 90 20:49:55 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA Message-ID: <53042mes.arc.nasa.gov> Newsgroups: sci.space ----------------------------------------------------------------- Tuesday, July 3, 1990 Audio Service: 202/755-1788 ----------------------------------------------------------------- This is NASA Headline News for Tuesday, July 3......... Yesterday, NASA Administrator Richard H. Truly, Associate Administrator for Space Flight Dr. William Lenoir and Associate Administrator for Space Science and Applications Dr. Lennard A. Fisk held a news conference to provide a forum of direct communications. A progress update on Space Shuttle activity, the Hubble Space Telescope Review Board and recent Congressional actions that include NASA objectives over the remainder of the year were discussed. Following the tanking tests that revealed hydrogen leak sources, the procedures that will be taken in order to resume safe flight activities as soon as possible will include a cryogenic test. This test is scheduled to begin this Thursday. Four work teams were announced to determine the cause of the leaks. The teams will be under the direction of Deputy Director of the Space Shuttle Program Leonard Nicholson. The program procedure will include a Design and Analysis Team, a Hardware Processing Team, a Data Analysis Team and a Fault Tree/Test Requirements Team. The next in a series of progress updates on the Space Shuttle activity will be discussed on NASA Select TV. It will be held with Associate Administrator for Space Flight Dr. William Lenoir and Space Shuttle Director Robert Crippen this afternoon at 4:00 P.M. EDT. Dr. Lennard A. Fisk, NASA Associate Administrator for Space Science and Applications, appointed a six-member Hubble Space Telescope Investigation Board. It will be chaired by Dr. Lew Allen, Director of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. The other members are Charles P. Spoelhof, George Rodney, John Mangus, Dr. Robert Shannon as well as Dr. Roger Angel. ******** SPACE FAX DAILY reports six states will consider forming an organization to represent state commercial space interests at the national level. Following an informal meeting at the Florida Space Conference, representatives of Alabama, Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Texas and Virginia said they would also ask California and Utah to join in the idea of the confederation. ******** ----------------------------------------------------------------- Here's the broadcast schedule for Public Affairs events on NASA Select TV. All times are Eastern. Tuesday, July 3........ 11:00 A.M. Hubble Space Telescope Teleconference News Briefing (Audio Only). 12-2:00 P.M. NASA Video Productions. 4:00 P.M. Media briefing with Associate Administrator for Space Flight Dr. William Lenoir. 6-8:00 P.M. NASA Video Productions. Thursday, July 5....... 11:30 A.M. NASA Update will be transmitted. 12-2:00P.M. NASA Video Productions. 6-8:00 P.M. NASA Video Productions. --------------------------------------------------------------- All events and times are subject to change without notice. These reports be filed daily, Monday through Friday at 12:00 P.M., EDT. This is a service of the Internal Communications Branch, NASA HQ. Contact: JSTANHOPE or CREDMOND on NASAmail or at 202/453-8425. -------------------------------------------------------------- NASA Select TV: Satcom F2R, Transponder 13, C-Band, 72 Degrees West Longitude, Audio 6.8, Frequency 3960 MHz. --------------------------------------------------------------- --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202) From: Peter E. Yee To: All Msg #108, 05-Jul-90 10:22am Subject: Payload Status for 07/03/90 (Forwarded) From: yee@trident.arc.nasa.gov (Peter E. Yee) Date: 3 Jul 90 20:51:39 GMT Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA Message-ID: <53043mes.arc.nasa.gov> Newsgroups: sci.space Daily Status/KSC Payload Management and Operations 07-03-90. - STS-35 ASTRO-1/BBXRT (at OPF) - Experiment monitoring continues. A video search will be conducted at the OPF in the orbiter bay for a small piece of safety wire that was misplaced. - STS-37 GRO (at PHSF) - Test batteries will not be discharged today; awaiting possible manifest/schedule impacts. - STS-40 SLS-1 (at O&C) - GTA pressure monitoring, MLI installation and installation of flight caps on experiment subsystem computers ongoing today. - STS-41 Ulysses (at Hanger AO) - At the VPF, preps for CITE testing will continue today. - STS-42 IML-1 (at O&C) - Rack, floor, and module staging is continuing. - Atlas-1 (at O&C) - Temperature sensors and cables will be installed today. - STS-46 TSS-1 (at O&C) - VFI hardware removal and EMP paper closure continues. - STS-47 Spacelab-J (at O&C) - Rack 5, and 7 staging continues. - HST M&R - Work on three PR'S scheduled for today. --- ConfMail V4.00 * Origin: TLSd: The DFW\Usenet Gateway (1:124/2202)