.id AA01315; Sun, 9 Jul 95 07:56:42 CDT
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 07:56:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 5 Num. 52



              Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 5  Num. 52
             ======================================
                    ("Quid coniuratio est?")


-----------------------------------------------------------------

INTERVIEW WITH DEBRA VON TRAPP -- JUNE 25, 1995

Thanks to a Conspiracy Nation reader for forwarding his 
transcript of his interview with Debra von Trapp.

By way of introduction, Debra von Trapp was featured on a recent 
segment of the NBC *Dateline* "News" program. Said segment dealt 
with alternative, non-official views as to who was behind the 
tragic Oklahoma City bombing. Ms. von Trapp claims to have inside 
knowledge as to who was actually behind the bombing and why it 
was done.

Note that, as always, I neither necessarily agree nor disagree 
with either all or parts of the following.

 +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +

Hi Brian, 

Here's an interview I did again with Debra Von Trapp on 6/25/95. 
My intent was to answer a lot of questions I've been asked by 
people who read the original interview by Sherman Skolnick and 
ones that I had myself.

-------------------- tape starts here -------------------------- 

Chuck: Let's see. You say your information was classified as 
"A2".


Debra: The statement is from the new interim commander of the 
militia, that   . . .


Chuck: Militia of Michigan, right?


Debra: . . . Militia of Michigan  . . . that one of the members 
stepped forward during the meeting in which he was appointed 
interim commander and he furnished him with information regarding 
a translator that dealt with a document for the Japanese 
government that confirmed *my* information and this person 
described this document which classified it as "A2". . .


Chuck: Okay


Debra: . . . which in his common language, he described it being 
verified information and verified participants. Uh, so that's why 
the interim commander gave me a call just a few days after he was 
appointed and discussed that with me and then additionally, that 
an ex-White House official who is still with the government has 
been transferred to another post, stepped forward and signed a 
document for Sherman Skolnick a few days ago which confirms my 
information and that was the reason why Sherman Skolnick called 
me and stated to me that he had confirmed my information, and ... 


Chuck: Now when you say confirmed your information, you're 
talking about that the Japanese hired, or contracted the job to 
bomb the building in Oklahoma City, right?


Debra: The way  . . . the way  . . Sherman was not specific in 
*that* detail, Sherman said "your information" and left it at 
that. And so . . . I haven't  . . . Sherman was on two other 
phone calls as I understood  . . .


Chuck: That sounds like him.


Debra:  . . . when I called him back from *my* call. And I asked 
him to follow up with me on it and he told me that he was 
preparing one of his reports that he usually puts out  . . .


Chuck: Yeah, he faxes them to me.


Debra: . . . and that his report would contain as much 
information as he could provide without revealing the identity of 
the person signing the statement for him because at this point he 
is concerned that *that* person is jeopardized. And I can 
certainly understand *that* because, considering that I worked 
with the people that killed Vince Foster , and the individual 
that confirmed my information to him, *additionally* confirmed 
that Vince Foster died as a result of being part of that larger 
operation which included the Japanese surveillance on White House 
communications and Skolnick *did* confirm *that* much to me, that 
it was absolutely confirmed, that the Japanese government had in 
fact conducted that surveillance operation on the Executive 
Office of the President.


Chuck: So, um  . . .


Debra: Of course I went out and helped purchase the equipment for 
it and operated with the Japanese officials on it, so, you know, 
it didn't need to be confirmed to *me*, but . . . .


Chuck: So, were you aware that this type of capability was in 
place when you were purchasing the equipment? I mean were you...


Debra: Did I know we were bugging the White House?


Chuck: Yeah.


Debra: Absolutely.


Chuck: Oh  . .  okay.


Debra: I didn't know *at* *that* *time* that we were operating on 
Japanese government funds. I found that out later. I knew that we 
were actively surveilling the Clinton administration.


Chuck: And who did you think was . . was  . . uh . .


Debra: I thought that I was conducting consulting to certain 
government offices. The persons that were conducting that 
operation had been identified to me as CIA, FBI and Defense 
Intelligence Agency.  And so, I was, um, operating, if you will 
or accompanying government employees conducting that operation.


Chuck: Okay.


Debra: So, to the best of *my* knowledge at *that* moment, I 
believed that we were still operating on behalf of CIA, black 
budget funds.


Chuck: How did they commission you to do this. Did you have to 
pass some kind of security, like an EBI (extended background 
investigation) or something like that, or, I mean how did you 
kind of get into the business of doing things like these.


Debra: That's an interesting question Chuck. That's the kind of 
information that I will bring forward at an unedited *live* civic 
hearing.


Chuck: Oh, I see.


Debra: And if it can't be conducted *there* then it will be 
conducted sooner at a *live* unedited press conference with the 
surviving members of that event and their families, including 
Edye Smith and her father.


Chuck: And do you anticipate that being  . . .  soon  . . or  . .


Debra: I believe that that's going to take place, um, . . . I 
would say  within the next 30 days. I know that the state panel 
that's been, uh . . proposed and should be embodied within the 
next week will have subpoena power. And as long as they have 
subpoena power that I intend to become part of *their* 
investigation. Additionally there are federal procedures that 
allow third parties to intercede in criminal hearings and I 
intend to have counsel intercede on my behalf in the prosecution 
proceeding against Tim McVeigh. So I will enter that proceeding 
as a third party on behalf of myself and on behalf of the victims 
and survivors.


Chuck: I see.


Debra: To provide the testimony that I have regarding that event. 


Chuck: Okay.


Debra: It would be reasonable to believe that McVeigh's attorney 
will subpoena me anyway as a witness.


Chuck: Oh yes, definitely.


Debra: The prosecution obviously, would rather that I didn't 
discuss any us this because it doesn't help their  . . the  . . 
fabricated story that they have created.


Chuck: Well, who is Tim McVeigh, I mean as far as your 
perspective goes. I mean . . how  . . was he involved, was he 
not. I mean it's just kinda like somebody that they happened to 
find out on the road at that time of the morning. I mean where 
did they find this guy.


Debra: Well, it sounds like you haven't followed Brian Redman's 
transcript of Skolnick's interview with, to ask that kind of 
question.


Chuck: Well, actually, I did, I read it, but it's been awhile. In 
fact I have a copy of it in my briefcase. I don't recall you 
addressing, other than uh,  . . I don't know . . I read so many 
things. I don't know if he was a patsy or not.


Debra: The statement that I have made about Tim McVeigh is the 
following:


Chuck: Okay.


Debra: Tim McVeigh, had nothing to do with the Oklahoma City 
bombing . He was not present at the bombing. He did not have a 
Ryder truck there. There was no Ryder truck in front of the 
building. There was no fertilizer bomb. And there was no 
fertilizer bomb inside a Ryder truck in front of the Murrah 
building in Oklahoma City, on April 19th, 1995.


Chuck: Okay.


Debra: And to date, that statement that I have made consistently, 
*daily* since April 19th, 1995, is consistent with all known 
evidence brought forward at this time.


Chuck: Okay, but what about that  . . remember the . . they show 
the axle, I've seen this on TV, I don't know  . . .


Debra: Yeah, the infamous axle.


Chuck: Yeah!


Debra: Yeah, did you hear the first reports they ever brought out 
where none other than Governor Keating(sp?) himself personally 
found it?


Chuck: (laughs) No, I didn't hear *that*!


Debra: Well, if you were in the midwest at all, all major news 
broadcasts reported for a couple of days that he *personally* 
found it, retrieved, and turned it over for evidence. Then 
*miraculously* . . . sort of like the Ryder truck, um, the 
vehicle that came from Arizona and pulled over with McVeigh but 
then was found in a driveway in Arizona with rusted axles in 
place.


Chuck: (laughs) I see.


Debra: *Miraculously* that story changed and suddenly Governor 
Keating was never there and never found it. It became "a 
policeman found it".


Chuck: Oh, I see.


Debra: But if you compare the original newscast to the later 
newscast, it's another FBI fairytale. And . . and . . I don't 
have time to go into the details now, but if you choose to pursue 
Governor Keating's personal friendships and relationships 
*politically* you will find an interesting tie between the 
Governor, the persons prosecuting Tim McVeigh, the ATF, and the 
FBI.


Chuck: And you know they did mention that uh, the VIN number was 
on the axle? The Vehicle Identification Number? Now, I've worked 
in the automotive business, and I know where the VIN numbers are 
and they *are* *not* *on* *the* *axle*. They just aren't. They're 
in the door jam, they're on the . . . you know . . . they're all 
over the place, but they aren't on the axle! I can tell you that 
right now.


Debra: Yeah, but they had to be on this story. It's like Tim 
McVeigh had to . . . you know, a week later they decided he must 
have had a folded up Ryder truck in the front pocket of his 
shirt. (laughs) And the story that came out right after he was 
arrested and they couldn't explain why they left his car on the 
side of the road for a couple of days, you know the most 
important piece of evidence in America at the time.


Chuck: You would think so.


Debra: And then they came out with this story that they expected 
to find the missing license plate off the back of his car in the 
rubble of the Murrah building.


Chuck: Yeah, because it "fell off", or . . I don't know  . . .


Debra: Yeah, now that was what was really going to be the magic . 
. . better than the magic bullet with Kennedy, we're going to 
have the magic license plate, because according to their theory, 
the axle blew off a Ryder truck and went blocks down the street 
the other direction, but he had run to a car, a getaway car, 
positioned somewhere far away from the front of the building and 
only the license plate would have miraculously jumped off the 
back of the car into the rubble, it must have passed the axle, 
mid-air, going off in the other direction . . .


Chuck: (sarcastically) Well, I guess it *could* happen . . .


Debra: Yeah, you know, it probably saw the Roadrunner go by and 
honk (laughs). The stories just stretch credulity and all 
reasonable thinking to the point at this moment most of America 
must be sitting in stunned disbelief that the FBI, the ATF, Janet 
Reno, anybody else, would have them believe any part of this 
story regarding Tim McVeigh. It's just, uh . . .


Chuck: It's way out there.


Debra: It's . .  it's so far out, it's past science fiction at 
this point.


Chuck: (laughs) It's not even good fiction, at that.


Debra: It's not! You know and then I get attacked (laughs) by 
Dateline who decides not to air my interview, carefully words an 
attack on me where if you play . . . replay their tape you see 
that they've put together two phone mail messages that were 
unrelated to each other and even the intonations are different 
and in fact where they say I am making a statement about them, a 
lot of reasonable people have pointed out to me that independent 
of my statement regarding that, they noticed that it is actually 
in question form, uh, where they're accusing me of a statement 
that I had suggested that they were the front for somebody. You 
know, I think everybody has pretty much figured out on the 
Dateline piece as well that they didn't present any of the 
information that's allegedly known to 3 to 5 million people. 
There's not one detail that they advanced.


Chuck: Yeah, I know.


Debra: So that's why I suggested that it might be prudent to go 
ahead and put out the Dateline tape and what I've offered to do 
at the end of the live interview between me and Chris Hanson, I'm 
including one of the recorded telephone conversations between 
myself and one of the federal employees . . .


Chuck: Um  . .


Debra: . . . making a threat directly against me, telling me that 
I will be killed if I talk about the Embassy of Japan or the 
Executive Office operation.


Chuck: Now was that before they actually attempt that  . . I 
remember  . .  now this is a part I remember . . in the interview 
with you and Sherman, you said that they left you for dead 100 
miles from your house.


Debra: (solemn) That's correct.


Chuck: Um . . .


Debra: And that's not even a subject that I'm going to discuss. 
And I haven't discussed it with anybody other than to make that 
statement.


Chuck: Okay.


Debra: I actually have the tape recordings of them discussing 
that with me as well.


Chuck: But that is verifiable, right?


Debra: (very quiet) Yes, it is.


Chuck: Because that is probably the most commonly asked question 
I get when people read the interview that you did with Sherman, 
is that, why is this woman still alive.


Debra: I have $25,000 worth of medical bills, that's why I'm 
still alive.


Chuck: And I say, "read the interview and she talks about it."


Debra: They aren't sure why I survived what I was put through 
either. I think it was the sheer determination, not to um, . . .


Chuck: Not to give  . . not to  . .


Debra:  . . to come back to my son. 


Chuck: Hmm.


Debra: I think the government has wholly under-estimated a 
mother's will. Both with Edye Smith and myself. They consistently 
told Edye to quit asking questions and to shut up.


Chuck: Now, who's Edye Smith?


Debra: She's the mom of the . . Coulton and Chase, the two little 
boys killed in the daycare center.


Chuck: The two and the three year old?


Debra: Right. And I've talked with Edye a couple of times and 
I've talked with her dad, more than that, and I've committed to 
them, no matter what sort of personal attack that I face over 
this, that I will not be dissuaded from bringing this information 
forward, providing the evidence, standing shoulder to shoulder 
with them, asking the same questions and demanding that the 
American public be given the actual information regarding this 
whole circumstance.


Chuck: The moral of this story being, don't mess with mom, right?


Debra: I think it's don't mess with the American public.


Chuck: Well, that's the bigger story.


Debra: Yeah, and this isn't a nation of two separate sets of 
people which is what it's beginning to look like. We have a 
number of people within the government and within the 
intelligence community that have determined that for their own 
personal gain and power that they are going to have this country, 
and that the rest of us are here at their convenience or their 
will, and that includes their view that there should be no 
repercussion, no explanation and no prosecution for murdering 
innocent citizens in their behind- the- scenes turf wars and 
that's what that effectively was about.


Chuck: Now who are, when you say, "these people", are you 
referring to the CIA or is it the New World Order crowd.


Debra: You know, I had never even heard the term New World Order. 
I mean I'm very conservative, mainstream, Republican, 
professional, you know, I didn't, I . . .


Chuck: Well, you live in Orange County, you *have* to be.


Debra: You're right, you know. I'm the same gal that stood at the 
door at the Nixon library with the Presidents during the funeral. 
I'm obviously, according to this government, this Secret Service 
and to this military, one of the most trust-worthy people in this 
country. Yet I start talking about the middle of the operation I 
was in, and people are attacking me and suggesting otherwise. And 
I had never heard the term, "New World Order". As far as I know 
these are the terms I am intimately familiar with: the Justice 
Department, The Organized Crime and Racketeering section, the 
Central Intelligence Agency,  the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation, the Nuclear Regulatory Agency or however it was 
classified that we were dealing with, the Defense Intelligence 
Agency,  the National Security Agency, the National Security 
Council. These are the places that I experienced, worked around 
with, through, on a daily basis for a number of years and those 
are terms and places that the American public don't ever deal 
with, rarely encounter, even discuss, and certainly usually are 
unaffected by, and those are the places that I have been and  
exposed to for all of this time. And I'm politically know as not 
being a person that discusses myself politically and if anything 
would be described as a conservative. My actual view is the best 
person that we could have as the next President, is Pat Buchanan. 
That we could certainly, you know  . . it couldn't hurt this 
country to get into a very mainstream, conservative mode and go 
clean up a lot of the mess we're in and that doesn't sit well 
with the people that are trying to paint me as being . . somehow 
. . having some kind of relationship with the militia or you know 
any of these other things I've heard including this Dateline 
statement that I've said I had government enemies. I have *never* 
made that statement, have never suggested it. I know that the 
people that I'm discussing *currently*, that are part of the 
government operation that I was involved in, can't be happy about 
what I'm discussing, but I have never termed them as enemies. I 
spent virtually every day of my life for years with these men, 
you know, either in person or on the phone. I mean I've been 
closer and more intimately familiar with these people than I have 
been with my *family* members, for the most part, except with my 
son, for all of this time.


Chuck: Over what period of time was that?


Debra: Oh, uh, I first crossed the Aldrich Ames and CIA operation 
back in 1982.


Chuck: Okay.


Debra: So I have a *long* history with government intelligence. 
Um, and it's been, exposed to, familiar with, introduced to, 
other agencies, other areas, for you know, all of these years up 
until now. So, it's not, you know  . . I don't today characterize 
anybody that I'm even discussing in terms of the crimes they've 
committed as my enemy. I think they are extremely unhappy 
probably with what I'm discussing but, I have never even 
characterized them that way.


Chuck: Okay . . I think  . . .


Debra: It's hard to tell, especially when they're not responding. 
(laughs)  I mean Leon Paneta's assistant in his office has flatly 
stated to me that I am welcome to call or fax any time. I was 
given a 24 hour phone number to Mr. Perry's office. He's the 
Secretary of Defense. I have an administrative assistant's phone 
number into Mr. Clinton's office, and I happened to know that, 
the documents that I provide into that office, are hand delivered 
to him, and not, uh . . .


Chuck: Into Clinton's office?


Debra: . . . into Clinton's office . . because of the 
circumstances surrounding all of this. You know, that has been 
*stated* to me. Um, I feel that if someone was very disturbed 
about what I'm discussing, they would step forward and say so. 
And so far Mr. Clinton hasn't called me and suggested that. Other 
than a few of the people I've actually named like Robert 
Goetzman, and Jim Coefield(sp?) and Wes Thomas, these are some of 
the people that have quite pointedly told me to quit talking or I 
will be killed.


Chuck: Goetzman and the other two?


Debra: Yeah.


Chuck: Oh, okay.


Debra: But they're also widely known to be government 
intelligence and they've made the mistake of trying to deny that 
now to certain people, but yet on the other hand, they've been so 
unabashedly careless about disclosing that to people even in 
meetings that I've conducted with them, with third parties, that 
they have no way of taking that back.


Chuck: Yeah.


Debra: Their cover is blown.


Chuck: Yeah that's what really surprised me, especially about 
Goetzman the way he was handing out the MCA cards and kinda  . .


Debra: Goetzman openly, in the computer industry, introduced 
himself as being from the Executive Office of the President. So, 
it's a little hard for him to try to retract that now and put on 
this front of  "Gee, I'm just a businessman in Florida."


Chuck: Do you think that that was just because of . . maybe . . 
he was kind of full of the fact that he was from the Executive 
Office. He was kinda like "Gosh I'm a big wheel now" type of 
thing.


Debra: Well, I think that  . .


Chuck: I mean why would he compromise himself like that? It, . . 
. you know . . it *seems* like he's compromising himself, anyway.


Debra: They all are, but this is my take on this. These are old 
guard, high level, intelligence members of the government, that 
have , um,  . . that operate in more than one capacity, in more 
than one agency, that have a tremendous amount of authority and 
autonomy and huge budgets to deal with, and not unlike many of 
the high ranking government officials that I've been around lead 
a lifestyle that conflicts financially with government employment 
where they enjoy the finer things of life. They enjoy making a 
point of that, they enjoy the social side of that, they 
*especially* enjoy engaging in cocktail type functions which 
includes a lot of drinking. I have been around all of these men 
when they engaged in that on a consistent basis. I have freely 
described in my personal opinion, not a medical opinion, because 
I'm not medically qualified, but in my personal observations of a 
great deal amount of time, over a number of years, in many 
different locations around this country, I have spent a great 
deal of time, personally viewing Robert Goetzman ingesting a 
great amount of alcohol and believe that his propensity to do so, 
in combination with, his  . . what I believe is a great ego, 
leads him to make statements which he carelessly makes and which 
ultimately blow his cover, as a government's intelligence  . . 
er, a member of the government intelligence community.


Chuck: And does that seem to be especially him, or are they *all* 
that way?


Debra: They're pretty much are all that way. It's a good old boy 
network, they're all pretty much in that same mode.


Chuck: I see, the tough guy, party hardy type, huh?


Debra: These are all guys that are in their 50's that are senior 
and very comfortable. I think that they don't worry about that at 
all. In fact there was only one occasion that I ever saw Robert 
Goetzman *not* drinking around me and we were out to dinner in 
Atlanta and he was with another person who was introduced to me 
as FBI, that I will *not* name, and it was Goetzman, this other 
man, myself and a person that I brought along with me at the last 
minute that I had previously discussed with Goetzman but he did 
not know was going to be part of the dinner party and this person 
is a *well* regarded journalist, who was previously with a major 
network and the correspondent to the State Department. And when 
we showed up *together*, Goetzman became enraged, sort of, off-to- 
the-side making a point to me that he was extremely upset that I 
had brought this person along because these guys were out to have 
a good time on the town in Atlanta that night. He even said, "I 
know what you're doing. You're not going to get away with it," 
which was, he believed that I brought this person along to 
somehow expose him or set him up. In fact nothing could be 
further from the truth. The other person and I were simply 
friends. I have a high regard for him. He had no other plans that 
evening. We had already been to a social function attached to 
COMDEX together at two locations and I simply invited him to 
complete the evening with us. And we ended up on some COMDEX 
transportation, you know how they do these shuttle bus things?


Chuck: Uh, huh.


Debra: . . . and he was gonna get off at the next stop and my 
next stop was to meet Goetzman and this other guy, and I simply 
said, "Just tag along, all we're gonna do is eat dinner." And 
instead, Goetzman just went into orbit over it.


Chuck: Really


Debra: And that's the *only* time he refused to drink. He was so 
uptight.  That . . . I mean, he was just beside himself the whole 
evening.


Chuck: Probably the one time he needed it, right?


Debra: Yeah! (laughs)


Chuck: Also, in the interview with Sherman, you had mentioned  . 
. . kinda going off in another track here . . . INSLAW software.


Debra: Uh huh.


Chuck: Now that's *banking* software, right?


Debra: Yep. Well, there are different versions of the PROMIS 
software.  The CIA did a number of different things with that 
code. So it  . . it's . . that code is  . . um  . .extremely 
useful. It  .  in it's capabilities, can do high speed 
transmission of a number of things and the range goes all the way 
from monetary transactions to video transmission.


Chuck: But wouldn't that also depend on the hardware? I mean as 
far as being able to handle that type of throughput? Is that 
where the satellite technology comes in?


Debra: Well, now, you know what, the hardware *isn't* such an 
issue on that kind of technology.


Chuck: Okay. What kind of transfer . . when you say "high speed 
transfer rates" is that like what? Or am I getting into an area I 
shouldn't be getting into?


Debra: Well, it's not an area that I can discuss. But I can tell 
you that when you think in terms . . . this is what I  . .  at 
the most . . . I guess  . . "common man", level of description, 
that . . when you think in terms of how you can use your VISA 
card at a store and in just moments it goes into a system 
nationwide and comes back to you, and ID's you and can check your 
signature (nothing checks your signature except for the clerk) or 
your banking pattern of purchases and all of that  . . .


Chuck: Or the credit balance.


Debra: Right. And how momentary that is. Consider doing public 
surveillance and taking photographs of just someone standing on a 
street corner, and instantaneously being able to do video 
transfer, comparison, and to databanks of known suspects, 
terrorists, political enemies, people you would like to set up, 
if you were in the government. Anything like that, you know, 
being able to instantaneously compare it and place it even back, 
that information back to some person, close to the locality you 
just viewed.


Chuck: That's pretty scary stuff.

-------------------------- end of tape ------------------------------

We then ended our interview because she had to go. Apparently a 
national surveillance system is very feasible and might well be 
in place as you read this (to a limited degree). There is a "test 
project" going on right now in San Jose, CA where video cameras 
are mounted at certain intersections to "help prevent accidents". 
I don't see how that will prevent accidents.

-------------------- end of message ------------------------------ 

- Chuck

-----------------------------------------------------------------
     I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
  For information on how to receive the new Conspiracy Nation 
  Newsletter, send an e-mail message to bigxc@prairienet.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail 
address, send a message in the form "subscribe conspire My Name" 
to listproc@prairienet.org -- To cancel, send a message in the 
form "unsubscribe conspire" to listproc@prairienet.org
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Want to know more about Whitewater, Oklahoma City bombing, etc? 
(1) telnet prairienet.org (2) logon as "visitor" (3) go citcom
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et 
  pauperem.                    -- Liber Proverbiorum  XXXI: 8-9 

 Brian Francis Redman    bigxc@prairienet.org    "The Big C"
--------------------------------------------------------------
    Coming to you from Illinois -- "The Land of Skolnick"        
--------------------------------------------------------------

