From server@firefly.prairienet.org Thu May 11 02:15:39 1995
	id CAA27309; Thu, 11 May 1995 02:15:32 +0200
	id AA26508; Wed, 10 May 95 19:10:36 CDT
Subject: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 4 Num. 87
X-Comment:  Conspiracy Nation


              Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 4  Num. 87
             ======================================
                    ("Quid coniuratio est?")
 
 
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INTERVIEW WITH DEBRA VON TRAPP
By Sherman H. Skolnick
(Transcribed by Brian Francis Redman)
 
I neither necessarily agree nor disagree with either all or 
portions of the following. -- CN Editor.
 
 +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
 
[...continued...]
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, on the one hand the Japanese, Mitsubishi and 
others, apparently have been spying on the Clinton 
administration... What is the rationale for them spying on the 
Clinton White House?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, at the time that Clinton took office, there was a 
tremendous trade war going on. And you'll see that our media was 
just *full* of stories and hostility about the economic pressure 
that the Japanese were bringing to bear on the U.S. economy, and 
the great imbalance in trade. And we were actually holding talks 
with the "multiple Prime Minister" of the week, since four 
changed hands in one year over in the Japanese government.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, Clinton was like an isolationist President, 
wanted to emphasize domestic instead of foreign affairs or 
something?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
No. They didn't know *what* his card would be. But what they knew 
for certain is that the Japanese were taking too much pressure 
from even the previous administration. And this real gravy train, 
CIA-funded project, under Bush, that this team I was with 
conducted -- directly out of the Executive Office of the 
President; it was a multi-jurisdictional team that had no other 
reporting authority except Bush -- had just a *ton* of cash to 
spend. I mean, these were federal government employees, walking 
around in $1200 suits, eating $100 lunches, and never thinking 
twice about spending money. And suddenly, Bush lost the election; 
they lost their project. They talked about doing a surveillance 
project on behalf of the CIA on Clinton. And ultimately, that 
didn't pan out. So this team decided -- that we had already been 
in the Japanese embassy, doing other things; or they had had some 
contact -- and basically decided to go to work for the Japanese 
government.
 
MCA Universal, again, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of 
Matsushta(?), which also was the manufacturer of the Shugart 
[disk] drives for Xerox and...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Right. The ones that went to the Eastern Bloc, illegally.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
So the same entity, the Japanese government, came in. Goetzman 
and the team carried MCA Universal business cards, with their 
name on them!
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
MCA, according to some published accounts, has a long, criminal- 
enterprise past with what Americans would call "the Mafia". 
That's been published.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So, in other words, with Matshusta taking them over, it wasn't 
that unusual! And *now*, nine days before the Oklahoma bombing, 
another criminal enterprise (at least, *some* people believe that 
about the Bronfmans) took over MCA from Matshusta.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, it's a criminal enterprise.
 
Do you believe that the...
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Ironically, the storage facility, which is Japanese Intelligence- 
owned (it's called DataLok), in southern California, 65 miles 
*below* the Universal City, where MCA Universal is, just after 
the subway attack and just before the Oklahoma City bombing, MCA 
Universal moved all of its corporate records out of its building 
and into the DataLok facility in Tucston(?), California. Now the 
DataLok facility was the same place that Goetzman and I, and 
Stanley and Cofield and everyone else, we shipped all the 
equipment that ultimately ended up in the White House and the 
Democratic National Committee and the District of Columbia -- the 
"bugged" equipment -- it first was shipped from the manufacturers 
into DataLok in Tucston, California, and then *re-shipped* to all 
the other destinations.
 
And so then MCA, in between the gas attack and the bombing, moved 
all their corporate records into DataLok. And I hope you're 
sitting down and holding onto your desk: because DataLok 
currently stores *all* *the* *secure* *documents* *for* *Hughes* 
*Aircraft* and some of its divisions that...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Really! [laughs]
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
...a year-and-a-half ago for our national security. Our very 
contracts, our government's most sensitive contracts with Hughes 
Aircraft, are, in fact, sitting in the same storage facility with 
MCA Universal's records. And the Japanese government and Japanese 
intelligence... And they've got their run of anything they want 
to read at any time of day or night.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, in the Hitachi case, some years ago, what came out was, 
Hitachi executives felt justified in spying on IBM because it was 
not against Japanese law for a Japanese national to spy on 
another country for industrial purposes.
 
So I guess they... You feel that that's the rationale for what 
the Japanese have done? Or...
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, I think they benefited greatly by completely compromising 
White House communications. Not only did they know everything the 
country was doing with everybody else, every other government, 
every transaction, every plan they had regarding the trade talks 
or sanctions or anything else. They, simply, had great leverage 
over Clinton.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Do you think that we, in turn -- our American CIA or the National 
Security Agency -- do you think we, in turn, have been spying on 
them, both here and overseas?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I don't think we had that kind of access. I think they had our 
government exactly where they wanted them. For the last two 
years, the Japanese government has had the upper hand in this 
situation entirely.
 
In fact, MCA is so worried about me knowing all of that 
information regarding the Executive Office "bugging" project and 
the storage of DataLok records, and the fact that they have the 
Hughes Aircraft secure documents in their storage facility, that 
they actually bought the neighbor out, across the street from my 
home, and -- literally -- the Japanese government and MCA 
Universal, one of their directors, is sitting 55 feet from my 
front door. Sitting out there to intimidate me!
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
>From a historical standpoint, *that* is what espionage people 
have done. Although those not familiar with espionage would be 
skeptical about the story, I'm not skeptical because I know of 
other examples where that very thing is done.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I wish someone would just come over, and knock on the door in 
front of my house and ask them what they're doing there! The 
director walked out of the door one morning, handed me a business 
card, and said, "Quit talking to the Justice Department. Call 
Robert Goetzman." I mean, I've dealt with this *every* *day* 
since November of '94 when, after they had kicked that Secret 
Service agent back from the White House, back to Oklahoma City, 
and Paul Coffey had instructed his staff not to talk to me 
anymore, I have been sitting here, with the Japanese government 
and MCA sitting across the street from me, *every* *day*, telling 
me to be quiet!
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So that, the bombing of the Oklahoma building was sort of a 
"symbolism", which is understood by those that have been involved 
in espionage -- am I correct?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Exactly. What happened was, the Japanese government paid for 
that. They footed the bill, and MCA Universal actually dispersed 
the funds. Goetzman and his associates contracted that bombing. 
The bombing was actually conducted by a few, specific individuals 
on a Special Ops team out of a base in Alabama -- not acting on 
behalf of the United States government -- acting on behalf of 
Goetzman and his team.
 
And that's why you see that that jet got downed over Alabama as 
well.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
It appears, from the circumstances and the witnesses, that the 
plane may have been bombed. There were several explosions of the 
plane in the air, before it hit the ground.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
The plane *was* bombed.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well, that's what it appears, from the eyewitnesses. There were 
explosions in the plane, before it hit the ground. And that would 
be a bombed aircraft.
 
Tell me this: has there been other violence? Some of us suspect 
that, a few days later, there was a strange helicopter crash in 
Texas that seems also related to the Oklahoma City bombing.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, I've seen some initial data on that. But that's nothing I 
have first-hand knowledge on.
 
What I can tell you is, I have first-hand knowledge on the 
things...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Tell me this: who do you believe the job was contracted out to, 
as to the Oklahoma City bombing?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
A few individuals that are, presently, still-active military 
Special Operations, out of a base in Alabama.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What base?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I know, I know the base and I know an individual holding the 
name, rank, and serial numbers of the actual people that were 
contracted...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
What base is that, if we may know?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
...and I'm... That information is only being given back to 
Secretary [of Defense] Perry at this point.
 
                   [...to be continued...]
 
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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et 
  pauperem.                    -- Liber Proverbiorum  XXXI: 8-9 

 Brian Francis Redman    bigxc@prairienet.org    "The Big C"
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    Coming to you from Illinois -- "The Land of Skolnick"        
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