From server@firefly.prairienet.org Tue May  9 02:11:17 1995
	id CAA28795; Tue, 9 May 1995 02:11:13 +0200
	id AA22813; Mon, 8 May 95 19:07:53 CDT
Subject: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 4 Num. 85
X-Comment:  Conspiracy Nation


              Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 4  Num. 85
             ======================================
                    ("Quid coniuratio est?")
 
 
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INTERVIEW WITH DEBRA VON TRAPP
By Sherman H. Skolnick
(Transcribed by Brian Francis Redman)
 
I neither necessarily agree nor disagree with either all or 
portions of the following. -- CN Editor.
 
 +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
 
[...continued...]
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well first of all, you believe that that plane was, crashed and 
killed everybody, because of sabotage.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. And it was specifically set to be downed over Alabama so as 
to be recovered within that state.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I noticed that one of those on board had previously been on the 
National Security Agency advisory board, also on the Army 
Security advisory board. So that was a top-level espionage person 
that died in that crash.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. And also, the person in charge of technical acquisition 
for the Air Force, out of Alabama, out of the same base that 
Goetzman and I reported into on the national...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Do you think that the mainstream media should have been aware 
that this plane was sabotaged and has covered it up in some way?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I think that mainstream media, in many cases, is so attached to 
government intelligence that they have no choice but to do that. 
I know that I was interviewed both by Jim Norman of *Forbes* 
magazine during my first revelations over Xerox and Aldrich Ames 
and Shugart, in the, I guess around '90 and '91. And his story 
was killed at *that* time. He was told to remove his records from 
his office and forget that he talked to me. And ironically, he 
interviewed me last week about this and the same thing happened 
to him two days ago.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, Mr. Norman had interviewed you several years ago?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. I have my original documents of our communication.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And then the story about a division of Xerox in the spy business 
was, his magazine killed that story a couple of years ago?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And you believe that his current story that he's working on, 
about a company called Systematics, is likewise gonna be killed?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yes. And I was specifically informed two days ago that his 
interview of me, regarding the Oklahoma City bombing, which I had 
announced from my firm to a news service in Washington, the day 
before it happened...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah. I understand. You called a very skilled, one of the most 
skilled White House journalists -- she's been covering the White 
House since [Harry S.] Truman's time -- Sarah McLendon. You left 
word on her answering machine the night before the bombing that 
something... What did you leave word on?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well, specifically, what had occurred was, I was watching the 
President's press conference. Sarah stood up and said, "Mr. 
President. What's going on at the CIA? They're shipping records 
out of the building, back to ex-employees."
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Right.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
And I realized that Sarah had some contact, some awareness, of 
the fact that they *were* trying to dump CIA documents out of the 
building. Because I was talking, and putting out press releases, 
and had specifically had communication both with Clinton's office 
and with [Leon] Panetta's office and with Janet Reno and with 
Paul Coffey. [Unclear] the chief of the organized crime and 
racketeering section, and had told him that I was going to go 
public with this information. And suddenly, the CIA is emptying 
the building. And Sarah [McLendon] noticed this. So, as the press 
conference was going on, I got on her telephone, and on her voice 
mail, and explained to her that I *knew* what was wrong with the 
CIA, proceeded to tell her the background on both the Xerox and 
the Japanese, that situation: what had happened as far as the 
Japanese and Robert Goetzman and a team of people related to 
Systematics, actually, this banking software expert, Jim Cofield, 
and a CIA communications expert named Jerry Thomlinson(?).
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Yeah... Thomlinson's background. He's really into very high tech 
in respect to devices that could be used for audio and visual 
surveillance.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right. In fact Thomlinson and I were together with Goetzman on 
the "bugging" of the Perot petitions committee. Thomlinson 
actually was setting up the town hall meetings, and Perot didn't 
know that he was actually "bugging" them, on behalf of the CIA. 
And Goetzman had me volunteer for a few weeks [unclear] with 
Thomlinson while he was doing this.
 
And, but to get back to Sarah [McLendon], what I left on her 
voice mail, the background on the story: And I said, "Sarah, our 
government was responsible for the gas attack in the Japanese 
subway. And there is an impending attack; there will be a bombing 
of a U.S. federal building, in retaliation for that."
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
How do you suppose that they... In other words, from your 
sources, you suspected that there was something like that gonna 
happen?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well now I didn't suspect anything; others, in the middle of the 
operation, knew exactly who paid for this, who contracted it, and 
who did it -- I... -- firsthand knowledge of this operation. And 
what I've been trying to *explain* to people is that I am not... 
Although I am an analyst for a *living* in my own industry, I, in 
fact, was in the middle of this operation. And the reason why I'm 
still sitting here, alive, today is because last year, they tried 
to kill me. I survived the attack. They actually took me out of 
my house. And two sheriff's deputies found me, 100 miles from my 
home, barely alive.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, you're very brave to come public with this, and 
to discuss this.
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Well what I did was, subsequent to my surviving that attack, they 
had a lot of contact with me after that, while I thought I was 
trying to turn them in to Janet Reno. And we were fighting, or 
in-fighting if you will. And I recorded all their telephone 
conversations.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, you were very brave in speaking out about these 
things. And you feel that that sort of work that you got involved 
in, that some in your team had something to do with arranging the 
tragedy regarding the Oklahoma building.
 
Who do you suspect was involved with that?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
I know exactly who did it. What had happened was, I, along with 
Robert Goetzman, an FBI employee, Peter Stanley, a CIA employee 
named Wes Thomas, out of New York, a DIA employee named Jim 
Cofield, who is a banking communications software transfer 
specialist out of Washington, D.C.... This team of people, when 
Bush lost the election, we transitioned from the project we were 
on, to being paid (although *I* was never paid -- they were paid) 
by the Japanese government through the Embassy of Japan in 
Washington to set up a surveillance operation on the Clinton 
administration. And essentially what we did was, we arranged to 
have a CIA employee that was left at the White House, in an 
office administration, named Dale Helm, issue all of the Clinton 
administration's purchase orders out of the Executive Office to 
all of their front companies. Robert Goetzman had Joint System 
Support, Ltd. Peter Stanley had ValCom(?). Jim Cofield had 
UniTech(sp?) and Kayjax(?) Engineering in Washington, D.C. And 
Wes Thomas used his [unclear] PR firm [unclear] Karen Thomas, who 
operates in the computer industry, Thomas & Associates. And all 
of those entities, together, processed, procured, and delivered 
the software and the hardware under the first purchase orders 
issued out of the administration.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
In other words, they re-equipped the White House when Clinton 
came in as the new President...
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Right.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
...and you were in with the team that was involved with that?
 
 
DEBRA VON TRAPP:
Yeah. In fact, I helped procure a lot of the software and some of 
the hardware on that. And basically, what we did was we put 
[unclear] motherboards into the new Executive Office computers, 
put all-new software in there. Peter Stanley sold Hillary her 
MacIntosh. We sold *all* of the software that was delivered to 
the Democratic National Committee -- about a half-million dollars 
worth, although they only paid about $52,000 for it.
 
                   [...to be continued...]
 
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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et 
  pauperem.                    -- Liber Proverbiorum  XXXI: 8-9 

 Brian Francis Redman    bigxc@prairienet.org    "The Big C"
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    Coming to you from Illinois -- "The Land of Skolnick"        
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