::Title:	European rail travel and the Eurail pass
::Compiled by:	David Finkel <dfinkel@cs.wpi.edu>
::Filename:	europe/eurail
::Date:		1993 January
::Type:		Compilation
::
This and other travel information is available by anonymous ftp from
ccu.umanitoba.ca (130.179.16.8) in the directory /pub/rec-travel.

For more information about the rec.travel archives, contact Brian
Lucas <lucas@ccu.umanitoba.ca>.

For comments, questions, or additions to this document, please contact
the author, whose address is given above.

========================================================================

The following is a compendium of postings to rec.travel on the subject of 
Eurail passes, especially on the topic of whether or not the Eurail Pass is 
worthwhile. There are also miscellaneous tips on getting the most out of 
European train travel, which might be interesting whether you're using 
the Eurail Pass or not. The first few articles are from 1989.  The remainder
have dates on them.  The first part is my own opinion.  I have 
identified the authors of the remaining pieces.

I hope you find this helpful.  If you do, please send me a postcard from 
your destination.

David Finkel
Department of Computer Science	       Internet:   dfinkel@cs.wpi.edu
Worcester Polytechnic Institute	       Telephone:  (508) 831-5416
Worcester, MA 01609 USA		       FAX:        (508) 831-5776

---------------------------
From: dfinkel@oak.wpi.edu (David Finkel)

In my opinion, a Eurail Pass is not worthwhile unless you're going
to do a LOT of rail travel.  A friend of mine used a 14 day Eurail Pass
to visit Holland, Germany, Italy, Spain, and France -- I'm sure he got
his money's worth.  But for most of us, who want to visit a smaller 
number of places and stay at least a few days at each one, Eurail Pass 
probably won't make sense.

There's a book titled "Eurail Guide", available at bookstores with decent 
travel sections, that can help you decide whether Eurail Pass makes sense
for you.  They have a section which lists the fare and approximate time for
many routes.  Even if they don't have exactly the trips you want to take, 
they will have similar routes, so you can estimate the cost of the trips 
you're planing on and compare it to the cost of a Eurail Pass.  An
important note: the fares listed in this table are First Class fares, which
is what you get with the standard Eurail Pass.  But I think that First Class
is not worth the extra money -- on most trains there's almost no difference 
between First and Second Class.  So I think the correct comparison is
to compare Second Class fares, which is what you'd probably use if you didn't
have Eurail Pass, and the cost of Eurail Pass.  The book says to figure that
Second Class fare is 2/3 of the First Class fares listed in the table.

A point in the favor of a Eurail Pass is that the Pass saves you from 
waiting in line for a ticket at the station.  However, you should
know that you may still have to wait in (a different) line for a seat
reservation.  A few trains require a seat reservation, but on most it's
optional.  I recommend seat reservations, at least for long trips and
especially if you're traveling at a busy time of year.  I took a trip from 
Florence to Venice which was so crowded that people had trouble finding places 
to stand.  We had seat reservations, but some people had to stand for 4 or 5 
hours.  And some of those people were going on to Vienna!  

It seems to be safe to wait until a day or two before your departure 
to get the seat reservation, which costs about $2.  In principle, you
can get seat reservations for any train in Europe from any major rail
station, but when I tried to make reservations from France a few years ago,
the computer links always seemed to be down.  Maybe the network is
more reliable now.

A tip for meals on the train.  In the station, there is usually a shop
or a cart selling box lunches and drinks.  These are very convenient
for eating at your seat (everybody does it) and much cheaper than eating
in the dining car (if there is one).

------------------------------------------------
From: Todd Fox <fox@mem.unibe.ch>
Subject: Eurail et. al.

There seems to be a fair deal of interest in rail passes in Europe.
There also seems to be a fair bit of old and simply false information
going around. I hope this will be a reasonably definitive posting.
The information is as accurate as I could possibly make it and still
quite crisp.

Eurail
------

For non-Europeans only. It CAN be bought in Europe but only with a
non-European passport. However, they'll probably look through your 
passport to see if there's any proof of residence in Europe (ie work
permits or the like) - which means you won't be able to buy a Eurail
(but then you can buy an Interrail). When bought here [[i.e., in 
Europe -- df]] it costs a little more
and you have to know the exact day you want to start when you buy it. Once
they stamp the date on it you can't change. When you buy it outside of Europe
you just get it stamped before you get on the first train you want to take.
Eurail is good for all trains in Western Europe except the privately owned
mountain lines in Switzerland (with prices that will bring tears to your
eyes) and Great Britain. Hungary has been added this year.
There are no supplements on any express trains (according to the German
State Railways, DB, official train info book as of Jan 1989). However,
I would check with the train information on suspect trains. I have never
seen a supplement but I have seen required seat reservations that the
train people seem to avoid telling you about unless you specifically ask.
They often sell you a ticket and fail to tell you that you have to pay a
supplement or buy a reservation. This seems particularly popular in Denmark
where the conductor is more than happy to sell you these on the train at
an inflated price. Then you notice the great handfull of receipts he has.
The reservations are generally required on international trains (and a
good idea anyway).
A lot of ships are included with Eurail as well. This includes the Silja
line to Finland, the ferry from Helsingoer (Denmark) to Sweden, all the ferries
in Denmark, a lot of the lake cruises in Switzerland, the cruise down the Rhein
, and the trip from Brindisi to Patras (Greece) (minus port tax and summer
supplement in July/August). Significant ferries not included are the ferries
from the continent to Great Britain, Algeciras to Morocco and the ferries
flitting about the greek islands. You get a map with your Eurail that shows
these.
As far as the discussion goes about 1st and 2nd class, you might as well go
for 2nd class. The difference is marginal. Besides, all the backpackers
are in 2nd class.
An interesting addition is that Eurail is valid on all the buses in
Luxembourg.
EURAIL IS NOT VALID ON THE U-BAHNS IN GERMANY. Never has been and I doubt it
ever will be. These are not federally owned. They are valid on the S-Bahns.
U-Bahn (Untergrundbahn) is the subway, S-Bahn (Schnellbahn) are partially
above ground and partially below commuter trains owned by DB and are
therefore covered by Eurail (and Interrail, I assume follwing the same logic).
Similarly, any local commuter trains owned by the federal railways are
good with Eurail. This includes the S-Tog in Copenhagen. Just check with
tourist information when you get in. Ride the S-Tog for free and enjoy cuz
it's expensive.

Interrail
---------

Yes, you don't have to be a European to buy these. However, you can't simply
buy them over here. You have to prove a minimum of 6 months residence in a
single country. Not even 6 months in Europe is sufficient so an old passport
stamp won't help. It is possible to get an Interrail without meeting this
criterion but conductors that don't believe you're rightful ownership of
an Interrail may ask for proof more stringintly than the guy that sold it
to you. If you can't prove it you'll lose the thing. You may have to pay a
fine as well. I've never met anyone that tried this. You have to buy the
Interrail in the country you stayed in so you don't get to buy one in a
country where it would be cheaper. Besides, the price difference from country
to country for Interrail is marginal.
As well as the countries covered by Eurail, Interrail also covers Great
Britain, Morocco, Yugoslavia, Rumania and the European part of Turkey
(up to Istanbul). As most people have pointed out, you have to pay half
price on the tickets in the country of purchase.
Interrail costs 400 Swiss Francs (in Switzerland of course).
Most ferries have 30-50% reductions with Interrail. This includes the ferries
to Great Britain and Morrocco. For an extra 70 Swiss Francs you can buy
"Interrail + Ship" which pays for a great deal of the ships. It becomes very
much like Eurail then (except you still have to pay for express supplements).
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO VALIDATE YOUR INTERRAIL FOR EVERY TRIP BEFORE YOU GET ON
THE TRAIN. I don't know if you had to do this 10 years ago but certainly not
now. This would certainly be a pain in the ass. You do have to write in
the start and end points of each trip. This usually involves a scurrying for
pens when the conductor comes around. This can be a pain but you get the
advantage of the conductor telling you where to change trains or that you're
on the wrong train. With Eurrail, you can blindly get on the wrong train
without knowing any better. It's been done.
BTW, you get a little money back at the end of the month if you give the
Interrail booklet back to the train people. 20 Swiss Francs or so. But almost
everyone I've met that's used Interrail keeps the booklet as a souvenir.
This information is from last night at about 11:30.

After much consideration I've decided that Eurail is easily a better buy.
Absolutely a better buy for 2 months.

You have to be under 26 to buy both the Eurail Youth ticket and Interrail.
However, plans are under way to make Interrail available at any age soon.

Individual tickets
------------------

If you're under 26 you can buy BIJ/BIGE/TWEN/Transalpino/CIV tickets (same
thing, the name changes from country to country). These offer around 30% 
reduction on INTERNATIONAL trips. If you're going to be direct this may be 
the cheapest way to go. You should be able to get a rough idea of prices from
any travel agent. The train prices are high enough here that Europeans simply
buy Interrail instead of a direct train ticket to Greece or Portugal and back.
This doesn't even include the random little daytrips that most North Americans
will want to take.
There are things to look for if you're buying individual tickets. Switzerland,
for example, offers a 20% discount on round trips inside of the country. They
also offer a "Halb Preis Abonnement". For 100 Francs all train tickets for a
year are half price. This is mostly so the train tickets are more reasonable
for the Swiss while the tourists get soaked for the full price. (There is a
one month version of the half price ticket for 65 Francs - still a bit above
the break-even point). Austria has an equivalent Umweltpass in the neighour-
hood of 100 Shillings - surprisingly reasonable. Germany currently has
the Super Sparpreis ticket. You get a round trip from point A to point B
in Germany for 120 Marks - no matter where. This is cheaper than a lot of
one-way trips through the country. The 120 mark version is good for 10 days.
For a little more you can get longer ones. I can't get a straight answer
out of the DB guys but apparantley as long as you specify an exact trip
before hand you can get some pretty wiggly trips but I make no guarantees
on this. It seems that they'll honour a reasonable request. Of course
you can use the Super Sparpreis as a one-way ticket too. There are a few days
in the year that the Super Sparpreis ticket isn't valid so ask about these.
Most, if not all, of the train tickets in germany have a Mitfahrer counterpart.
Anybody going on the same trip gets the ticket for half price. Useful if you
meet people going your way. The Mitfahrer works with Super Sparpreis too. 
Across Germany and back for 60 marks!

Send comments and flames to:

Todd Fox
fox@mem.unibe.ch
uunet!mcvax!mem.unibe.ch!fox

M.E.M. Institut fuer Biomechanik
Bern, Switzerland


------------------------------------
From: erik@wsl.dec.com (Erik Fortune)


I traveled for a month on a Eurail pass just before Christmas and loved it.
I think it depends a lot on how you like to travel, though.  We were very
relaxed, and frequently changed our itinerary around (Blech.  The weather is
lousy here, the hostel is closed -- Let's go to Paris).  You can also get on
the next train headed roughly in the direction you want to go, and wing it
from there.

The Eurail pass also let us do things like set up a base in Zurich (great
hostel) and day-trip to Luzern, Bern, Schaffhausen, the south of Germany,
etc.

All in all, the Eurail pass was a very good match for the way I like to 
travel.  If you are wedded to your itinerary, it seems like a pretty 
straightforward calculation to determine which makes more sense.

-- Erik Fortune
erik@wsl.dec.com
   or
erik@decwrl.dec.com
------------------------------------

From: BVAUGHAN@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan)


London can be reached by overnight train from Paris; Spain, possibly
as well, especially if you're not going very far into Spain. Both of
these trips may allow you very little sleep. Going to London involves
train/ferry/train/customs negotiations, which may happen at 3 AM, so
you may not arrive rested and raring to go. Customs at Dover can take
forever if you don't have a Common Market country passport. The trip
to Spain may also entail an inconvenient delay. The Spanish railroads
have a different track gauge from the rest of Europe, and they have to
change the wheels at the border; I don't know if you can stay on the
train and sleep while they do this. There are two German cities near
to France that I really enjoyed: Cologne and Trier. If you go to Trier,
spend one day travelling along the Moselle (you can go by train; take
a local train so you can get off at one of the smaller villages.)
Another place within an easy daytrip from Paris is Bruges (Belgium).
A really beautiful city. Also, many parts of the Netherlands can be
reached in less than a day.
As far as Eurail, I think you're better off without it. You will prob-
ably be travelling at most two days out of five; I think that's below
the breakeven point. Also, when you're living in Europe, you see lots
of special three-day or weekend packages offered by bus companies, the
railroads, etc., that the average tourist can't take advantage of be-
cause they have a limited time to stay in Europe. Also, Eurail is no
good in Great Britain. I think Italy and Greece need a longer chunk
of time to visit.
By the way, I worked in Holland for 6 months, and did exactly what
you're hoping to do. Twice I took a week-long trip, to Spain and
Sweden/Denmark. The rest of my travel was two- and three-day weekend
trips. On such short excursions I visited Paris, London (twice),
Bruges, and Cologne/Trier/the Moselle. Of course, you can't see
everything on such short trips, but you know which places you want
to see again.

-------------------------------------
From: bourman@hpccc.HP.COM (BobbHewlett-PackardCorpNetEngPaloAltoCa.)

 I would suggest the Eurail Pass (first class only).  I traveled 15,000
 miles through 15 countries in Europe on my Eurail pass and loved every minute
 of it.  You must pay the extra for first class.  It's worth it...
 You can sleep on the train ie. Paris to Madrid (8 hours).  Madrid to Lisboa 
Portugal (Lisbon) = 8 hours.   when you travel at night (nothing to see anyway)
you can pull the seats (6) together and make a King size bed... Sweet dreams.
I had several night trains with a "Private" compartment.  It saved me from     
paying for a Pension......
If U have any ???, E-mail me and I will expand on my comments.

----------------------------------------------
From: etan@sim.berkeley.edu (Emy Tan)

A netter writes:

> You must pay the extra for first class.  It's worth it...
> You can sleep on the train ie. Paris to Madrid (8 hours).  Madrid to Lisboa 
> Portugal (Lisbon) = 8 hours.   when you travel at night 
> you can pull the seats (6) together and make a King size bed... Sweet dreams.
> I had several night trains with a "Private" compartment.  

The same applies to second class Eurail compartments!  You can pull down
the 6 eats to make a king-size bed, and I have travelled night trains 
(2nd class) with a 'private' compartment also!

The only difference (it looked like to me) between 1st and 2nd class
are that the head-rests are a little puffier and with white linen
covering, while the 2nd class ones are not.  The size of the chairs 
looked the same...possible the 1st class seats are softer, but the
2nd class seats are fine...

Emy


---------------------------------------------
From: BVAUGHAN@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Barbara Vaughan)

>A netter writes:
>> You must pay the extra for first class.  It's worth it...
>> you can pull the seats (6) together and make a King size bed...
>> I had several night trains with a "Private" compartment.
>
>The same applies to second class Eurail compartments!  ...
I have occasionally been able to stretch out in a 2nd class compart-
ment. (Even if there are 3 people, each can at least pull out the
facing seat and put their feet up, although once I was stuck with a
conductor who kept going around telling people to take their feet off
the seats.) However, I have also sometimes found myself on an overnight
in a compartment that had six people. No sleep possible at all. If you
really want to be assured of sleep, get a 2nd class couchette compart-
ment. The 6 seats convert to 6 bunks. The cost is not much over and
above 2nd class fare, and it's a lot cheaper than a hotel room. If you
have Interrail, you can buy the couchette ticket separately, paying
just the differential. The only reason to go 1st class is that you
have a better chance of getting an uncrowded compartment, although there
is no guarantee. Most Europeans travel 2nd class. As far as being able
to ride 1st class with a 2nd class ticket, I have been chased out of
empty 1st class seats that I occupied accidentally, even on short trips
on nearly empty trains.
The real decision for buying Eurail/Interrail is this: If you will be
more than a few days in one place OR if you will be mostly in one
or two countries OR if you want to go to off-the-beaten-track places
these passes may not be worth the expenditure. In the first instance,
you can't use it enough to make it pay. In the second, most countries
have their own passes at a fraction of the cost that will cover your
travel within that country; and in the third case, busses cover the
out-of-the way places better and cheaper than trains. By the way,
there are very cheap bus/ferry tickets from the continent to London.
Also, European travel agents are very happy to get you cheap bus or
train deals from one place to another. There are often very cheap
special promotional tickets (train or bus) from one place to another.
For a long time the German railroad was offering very cheap travel
from the Netherlands to try to encourage Dutch tourists to go to
Germany instead of the Costa Brava. There also is something called
the Rail Europ family card, which I bought in the Netherlands in
1986 for a very low price, which entitled the 2nd member of a family
to a half-price ticket and the third member to a quarter-price ticket
for travel BETWEEN any of around 12 countries, but not within the
country where it was purchased. It was good for a year.
As far as the one-country passes, they are more useful than it appears
at first sight. For instance there is a Benelux pass that is good in
the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. You can not only use it for
all your travel within those three countries, but if you then want to
go on to Paris or Germany, on the last day of your pass you use it
to go to the last station before the border and then buy a ticket to
take you the rest of the way; so it's paid for half of your fare
(maybe more) to the non-Benelux destination.
Barbara Vaughan

---------------------------------------
From: iadt3mk@prism.gatech.EDU (KUSTERMANN MICHAEL)

Here are two pieces of information that I found in a magazine
that might be of general interest to this newsgroup:

1. Eurailpass has added a new country (the 17.) to its member-
   ship -- Hungary. It is the first East Bloc nation to ally
   itself with this system.
   Passes can be bought for 10% less in the U.S. than in Europe.

2. One of the most spectacular train trips is the Vancouver-Kam-
   loops-Banff/Lake Louise ride in a modern train equipped with
   dome cars. Until recently, however, there was a problem:
   If you booked such a trip, you missed many miles of spectacular
   scenery while the train traveled at night. Now, at last, VIA Rail
   Canada has inqugurated all-daylight service from early May to
   October on several train tour packages in the area. You sightsee
   mountian, glaciers, lakes, and wildlife all day; when night
   falls, the train stops (at Kamloops, Banff, or Jasper) and off
   you go to a hotel. Next day the journey resumes with not a
   waterfall or a black bear missed. 
   For a new catalogue with all the details call: 1-800-665-0200
   Or write: VIA Rail Canada, POBox 8116, Station A,          
             Montreal, Quebec H3C 3N3, Canada.


-- 
michael kustermann -- ga tech/atlanta ga 30332 -- iadt3mk@prism.gatech.edu
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!iadt3mk

----------------------------------
From: toms@omews44.intel.com (Tom Shott)

A previous poster noted that Spain and Portugal have a different track
gauge then the rest of Europe. On one trip going from Paris to Madrid the
2ed class train stoped at the border where the tracks ended. We walked
across the border, had breakfast in a small cafe and then boarded a Spanish
train for the trip to Madrid. On returning from Madrid to Paris we paid the
extra money to convert a 2ed class Eurail pass to a coachet. The train
stopped in the middle of the night at the border, the wheels were changed
while we slept and the train continued north. A freind woke up and
indicated they lifted the train car up and replaced the trucks (those
things the wheels are in). I never even woke up. I don't remember when
they checked the passports. It might have been an express and they checked
them in the evening before we went to bed.

As for the 2ed vs. 1st class argument, let me add another inexpert opinion.
Second class is cheaper, you meet more "interesting" people (more students and
less business men), it's not crowded in the off or shoulder seasons and
it's not too uncomfortable. In 1st class there are less people and during
the summer vacation season it's easyer to find space. If you really want to
sleep on the train to save time on your trip (you get some quanity of sleep
but I sure didn't think the quality was all that good) get a 1st class
ticket because there is a bit more room (six vs eight people in a
compartment ?) and less people which means a better chance to sleep
lying down.

I traveled for one month on a second class Eurail pass. I don't think I got
my moneys worth out of it but I would do it again. I paid the entire cost
up front and didn't have to worry about budgeting transportation cost. I
never had to stand in line to buy a ticket (although in Spain you need to
stand in line to get a reservation) or feel guilty about getting off at
some small town I saw outside the window. I guess it all comes down to
maybe paying a premium for the freedom a Eurail pass gives you.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Shott		Safer  ->			toms@mipon2.intel.com
Intel			Dumber ->	   toms%mipon2.intel.com@relay.cs.net
M/S JF1-58		Slower -> {uunet,verdix,tektronix,ogccse}!mipon2!toms
2111 NE 25th Ave.
Hillsboro, OR 97123
(503) 696-4520	     "Software itself would not be possible without Hardware"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From: reiter@babbage.harvard.edu (Ehud Reiter)
Subject: British Rail fares and railpasses

On the perennial subject of railpasses, I recently came back from Britain,
where I travelled by train for two weeks *without* a railpass.  I went
London - Windermere (Lake District) - Edinburgh - Manchester - Bangor (Wales) -
London, and the train tickets cost all of $100.  I'm sure this is far cheaper
than even a one-week Britrail pass.

British Rail is being run like an airline these days - normal one-way tickets
cost $$$$, but there are lots of special deals available (they even have APEX
fares!).  If you have a bit of flexibility and take the time to investigate
the different possibilities, you can get around pretty cheaply.  If you're
not frantically zipping all over the place, buying tickets on the spot will
probably be cheaper than getting a railpass.

The same is true in Ireland, where I also spent some time in - normal train
fares are outrageous, but lots of special deals exist.

Travellers can also consider taking buses or planes - buses tend to be much
cheaper than trains, and flying can sometimes be cheaper than you might
expect (while US airlines have been swallowing each other and raising prices
right and left, European airlines have been under EEC pressure to allow more
competition, and thus seem to be lowering their fares).

One cautionary note: according to Let's Go Britain, students and young people
are entitled to get British Rail railcards which give 33% off train fares.
In fact, while young people of all nationalities are indeed entitled to
railcards, students 24 or older are only entitled to them if they are students
at a *British* university.

					Ehud Reiter
					reiter@harvard	(ARPA,BITNET,UUCP)
					reiter@harvard.harvard.EDU  (new ARPA)
---------------------------------------------

From: bridget@unisoft.UUCP (Bridget Dobbins)
Subject: Re: Eurail/Britrail Help


	If the *only* place in England you plan to see is London, don't
bother getting a BritRail pass.  They're much too expensive.  Instead,
once you get to London, go to London Student Travel (I *think* that's
what they're called;  they are across the street from Victoria Station),
and inquire about cheap singles (that's "British" for one-way tickets) to 
Paris.  You should be able to find an overnight bus or, if you are quite 
lucky, a charter flight for 23 to 25 pounds.  Also, try the Miracle Bus 
company down on The Strand, near the Australian Embassy, one of the youth 
hostels, where people might be staying who are planning to drive to the 
continent, or check out one of the free magazines geared towards the large 
Aussie/Kiwi resident population.  Many cheap travel ads in the back.  Can't 
recall the names of the mags (I think there are two), but you should be able 
to pick them up at London Student Travel.  You shouldn't have any problem 
getting cheaply from London to Paris, and it's not necessary to plan in 
advance, especially as you'll be there in spring, not at the height of tourist 
season.

(The other thing --- *do* go straight from London to Paris, and don't
validate your Eurail Pass until you leave Paris (validate before you get
on the train, however!).  You should be able to squeeze a week or more out
of your pass that way, and don't need to be in a hurry to leave Paris, 
which is a wonderful city.)

Good luck,

Bridget Dobbins                         UniSoft Corp.
{uunet,ucbvax,sun}!unisoft!bridget      Emeryville, CA

---------------------------------------
From: waters@sps.mot.com (Strawberry Jammer)
Subject: Re: Eurail posting

To add a couple of thoughts:

1st Class vs 2nd Class

If you CAN buy the youth passes (2nd class) do so. About the only difference
in the North is the number of people. 2nd class gets crowded sometimes, but
1st class can be lonely - great for sleeping, but ...

I am told that Southern Europe - Italy, Spain, Greece etc. has very different
first class and second class carriages though.

The only other benefit is that the 1st Class pass includes ALL "supplements"
such as EuroCity/InterCity/Express. Neither include the cost of couchettes or
compartments for overnight travel though.

National Passes

The Eurail book now says its only worthwhile if you are traveling over 1500
miles and in several countries. That is probably not too far wrong, 2nd class
fare from Bonn to Geneva for example is $212, the 15 day 1st Class pass is $320.

If you plan to be mostly in one country though the national passes are
worthwhile. It doesn't work to buy two seven day passes in say Germany and
France though the 15 day Eurail is cheaper.

Some national passes (e.g. Switzerland) give additional benefits or are good
for discounts on the private railroads.

Non-Eurail Segments

Look for the "Europa Bus" service, the eurail is good on them and a number of
other local busses in Germany. Not the Swiss Post Busses though.

Berlin/E-German Corridor

If you go to Berlin (worth a visit), you must buy a ticket for the E. German
passage section. Best done at special "DDR" counters in most W. German rail
offices, Amsterdam had a lot of problems getting through on their computers.
Show them your pass and they will sell you the appropriate ticket - 112DM
return 2nd cl. (Around $60). I recomend the Thomas Cook "Travel in Berlin"
publication ($3) since the situation there is bizzare to say the least!

BTW the political situation in the GDR/DDR has NOT affected tourists AT ALL!
The border gaurds are not exactly polite, but they do their job and don't
hassle you unduly. Same goes for visits to E. Berlin.

It seems that E. Germany (DDR) gets a large portion of its foreign exchange
from tourists/visitors and they are VERY careful not to jepordize this. I
recommend a visit, if only to see for yourself the results of beuracracy gone
mad. I wouldn't have believed it myself if I hadn't seen it!

Switzerland - Glacier Express, Schiltorn

Several private railroads in Switzerland don't honour Eurail/Interail etc., two
worth noting (and worth riding) are the Schiltorn/Jungfreu (sp?) system and
the Glacier Express.

The Jungfreu (sp?) is South of Interlaken and includes the Schiltorn mountain
transportation (narrow gauge train, funicular, gondola cars, bus) and resorts
such as Muren and Gimmelwald. Worth seeing, but about $30 round trip in and
out. I recommend a breakfast on the Schiltorn peak.

The Glacier Express is a narrow gauge route from Zermatt via Brig, Disentis,
and Chur to St. Moritz. It is reputed to be the best rail trip in Europe and
I won't disagree. You need a reservation AND to pay separately for the
Zermatt to Brig to Disentis portion. I rode from Brig to Chur and loved every
foot along the way.

The only thing to watch is that you board the trains in the street outside
the federal railway station and there are usually 3 or 4 trains loading at
once. ASK. Everyone there knows "Glacier Express".

Miscelaneous tips

When the conductor checks your pass, say (or write) the name of your
destination city. He may not speak much (or any!) English, but DOES know the
trains and are universally helpfull.

Don't assume that the whole train is going to your destination, they often
split trains into as many as 5 parts going all over. Check the sign on the
side of the carriage you are on.

Driving vs Flying vs Rail

Having toured Europe by all three means, I highly recommend Rail for about
80% of your European travel. You travel city center to city center and ALWAYS
have good connections to the local transit system. Trains are frequent, fast
and go almost everywhere. Most of the time they are on time or quite close
(1/2 hour late from Vienna to Amsterdam a 16 hour trip is typical). They are
sometimes 2-3 hours late though so don't count on the schedule to make your
flight home for example.

The roads are good, but fuel is at least 2X the US cost and parking in large
cities is appalling to non-existant. Useful if you want to go to rural 
areas where rail service is poor though. Stay away from driving in large
cities - London, Paris, Rome etc.. 

Air travel within Europe is really only useful either for business or to make
continuing connections with your transatlantic flights. Air Traffic delays
within Europe are enourmous (2 hours on a 1 hour flight for 70% of flights is
not uncommon). It is extremly expensive, the space is much smaller than in
the US, and the airports tend to be isolated with VERY tight security (read
long lines and MUCH hassle). Only useful in VERY special circumstances like
travel to/from Berlin if you can't travel through E. Germany due to a
security clearance or having left E. Germany without permission.

-----------------------------------

From: euatdt@euas17c10.ericsson.se (Torsten Dahlkvist)
Subject: Spanish trains
Date: 22 Jan 90 10:08:41 GMT

This actually started as a piece of E-mail to Colleen Wirth in response
to her article <668@telesoft.com>, but as I wrote it it turned into a
flame of the Spanish railways thet I feel others might benefit from
reading... 

colleen@telesoft.com (Colleen Wirth @second) writes:
>
>Some backgroud:
>I was told by an exchange student who spent a year in Spain, that the
>width of the train tracks in Spain are different from those in other
>European countries.  She claims that the French helped the Spaniards
>build the railroad, and that their justification for differing from
>the "standard" width of tracks was to stop Hitler's advance south.
>This sounds reasonable enough, but I don't know if it is accurate.

It's slightly "mutated", since the railways were built long before Hitler's
days and the chief enemy was France. The principle still holds, though.
That's the political reason. There's a technical one too, but we all know
how much more clout politics hold over engineering :-) Seriously, Spain
is the second highest-altitude country in Europe and they felt they needed
stronger engines for their trains. In the days of steam engines, a wider
body of the engine ment more room for larger, stronger cylinders.

>Because of this, people travelling south to Spain by rail must change
>from French trains to Spanish trains at the border.  However, some
>newer trains are able to switch between the two, but these are usually
>fast trains (schnell zug) that stop only at major cities (Barcelona,
>Marseilles, etc.).  Smaller trains that make frequent stops are still
>specific to one set of tracks.  

Sadly true. There are special express trains that have adjustable wheel-
sets, but they run un-frequently (once/day) and they charge a HEAVY
supplement for riding on them.

My SO and I went to Spain for an autumn holiday and for various reasons
chose to go by trains. Since the through services ran at times that didn't
fit our schedules, we had to change at Port Bou/Cerbere both ways. We never
left the station area, though, and it was dark both times so I can't tell
you anything about the landscape.

Spanish trains come in a multitude of categories depending on speed and
comfort. Generally speaking you have "slow" trains which stop frequently
and rarely go any long distances. Then there are "expresses" which go
a bit faster and "Talgo" which look like weird subway trains linked to
form a long worm-like train but go at a decent speed. The slow trains
rarely have connections which means you may need to wait for half the day
(or night!) at the terminal station before you can continue, so this
means the visitor almost always has to use the faster trains. Unfortunately,
anything that runs faster than a lame donkey and skips some small village
halt costs extra for "express service"! We both had Interrail passes which
give unlimited train passage throughout Europe (same coverage as Eurail pass).
Malaga - Madrid (overnight with couchette) was approx $20 US extra each.
Madrid - Barcelona on a day-time Talgo was $40 each and to further add
insult to injury the Barcelona - Port Bou Talgo we'd paid another $6 to
go on turned out to be the same train we'd come from Madrid on. It just
stood at the platform for an hour and they changed the number on it so it
appeared as a new train in the time-table!

I'd been warned about this Spanish phenomenon so we'd booked our tickets
in advance and budgeted for it, but we kept running into travellers with
passes (Interrail and Eurail) who were completely unprepared for this.
Living in Spain can be quite cheap but if you want to see something other
than railway stations you will need to pack extra money for trains!

The rail stock in Spain is another sad matter. Railways are in very poor
condition which is why "regular" trains run so slowly and feel very shaky.
In order to up the speeds without re-laying the railbeds they've equipped
their trains with special suspensions which is why the Talgo trains look
so strange. Plans are underway to change their railways to standard gague
(as a matter of fact, their recent entry in the European Economic Community
*forces* them to) and if things run as scheduled (as opposed to the trains
themselves!) the Port Bou - Barcelona line will be converted by -92 in
time for the Olympics. Imagine all the crowds arriving by trains needing
to change at Port Bou... :-(

 Torsten Dahlkvist
 ELLEMTEL Telecommunication Laboratories
 P.O. Box 1505, S-125 25  ALVSJO, SWEDEN
 Tel: +46 8 727 3788

---------------------------------

From: tejtemw@isis.educ.lon.ac.uk (EARL WILLIAMS)
Subject: Re: Interrail
Date: 20 Mar 90 11:09:21 GMT

>  Could someone please post some details on what the Interrail pass
>entails?  My girlfriend is a German citizen but has been living in the
>US for the past 10 years, and she's been having a tough time finding
>any information in New York on this pass (remember, all the travel
>guides are oriented towards Americans here); all she knows is that US
>Citizens try to get this instead of the Eurailpass, even though it's
>for citizens of European countries.
>
>  Would Canadians be eligible to get an Interrail pass?

Interrail passes are available to Europeans and people who have been
residing in Europe for at least six months.  I don't know about EC
nationals living in the US, but Canadians would not be eligible.

People in the US need to get the Eurrail pass, which is somewhat more
expensive.

The Interrail pass gives unlimited travel in Europe for 1 month (Eurrail
passes can be bought for other time periods), except that they give only
a 50% discount in the country in which they are bought (and in the UK).

-- 
Earl M. Williams            ?8^)    "No matter where you go, there you are."
Inst. of Education, U. of London                            -Buckaroo Banzai
INTERNET/JANET: tejtemw@isis.educ.lon.ac.uk     "When in doubt, lay it out." 
BITNET:         tejtemw%<same>@ukacrl.bitnet     -Captain Ultimate [Frisbee]

---------------------------------------

From: percus@husc8.HARVARD.EDU (Allon Percus)
Subject: Re: Supplemental fares on TGV, IC, and EC w/eurailpass
Date: 12 Jun 90 15:23:24 GMT

It is indeed the case that with the Eurail pass, you are exempt from
just about all of the fast train surcharges (this is something new
this year).  In all likelihood, the most you might have to pay is a
reservation fee (and maybe not even that) of a dollar or two.

If you have questions and you cannot get through to French or German
Rail, another good place to try calling is the Forsythe Travel Library
(they're the ones who distribute the Thomas Cook Railway Timetables on
this continent) at 1-800-FOR-SYTH.

Allon Percus

---------------------------------------

From: joej@oakhill.UUCP (Joe Jelemensky)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Re: Supplemental fares on TGV, IC, and EC w/eurailpass
Date: 12 Jun 90 18:20:23 GMT

In article <36973@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> markl@janus.Berkeley.EDU 
(Mark Lochridge) writes:
>
>I've been trying to find out how much the supplemental fares are
>for travelling on the TGV, IC, and EC trains in Europe. We'll
>be travelling with a 1st Class ERpass.  My travel agent hasn't

>nor FrenchRail - all I want is a rough idea of what to expect:
>something insignificant, like a dollar or two, or a budget buster
>like $20?  Any netters out there have an idea?

I did this several years ago.  I do recall having to pay a small
supplemental fee to ride the TGV, but I don't remember exactly
how much it was.  It seemed more of a nuisance that an expense.
That was the only fare supplement I recall paying, but it seems
that there was a small fee for making reservations on the special
express trains as well as the TGV.  This fee seemed like it was on
the order of a dollar or so.  Reservations were not required for
the special express trains but recommended.  Reservations were
mandatory for the TGV.

If you haven't already done so, get a copy of the Thomas Cook
timetable.  It has everything you need to know about schedules
and type of trains.  I consider it a necessity for travelling
on the European rail system unless you're only going to go from
point A to point B a few times.  If you really want to get the
most out of your passes, the TC timetable is essential.  Don't
overlook the fact that the local trains with many stops are
great for getting accross even moderate size cities like Cannes.
It's nice to have because you can make impromptu trips simply
by checking the schedule, jumping on the train you want, and
simply flashing your pass when the conductor comes along.
We even made spur of the moment alterations during trips on occasion.
The timetable is available via mailorder from somewhere here in
the states - your travel agent should be able to tell you.  I
believe it is published monthly.

BTW, since you seem to indicate you are on a budget, bringing
along your own food and beverages is accepted and practiced
by the locals too.  We always stopped at a small grocery and
grabbed a loaf of bread, some sliced meat, crackers, cheese,
fruit and bottled water just before our major trips.  (The
bottled water is necessary).

---------------------------------

From: Phil@cup.portal.com (Philip D Smith)
Subject: TGV Sup
Date: 13 Jun 90 05:01:29 GMT

I just got back from there and am also a travel agent. There is no supplement
paid if you have a first class eurailpass, however as one writer already 
stated, there is a compulsory reservation. Three weeks ago it was about $12 US.
(well worth it for the fast sleek ride TGV offers)
Phil Smith

------------------------------------

From: lws@comm.wang.com (Lyle Seaman)
Subject: Re: Supplemental fares on TGV, IC, and EC w/eurailpass
Date: 13 Jun 90 17:50:02 GMT


France:  Seat reservations are MANDATORY on the TGV.  If you 
         want to sit in a non-smoking car, reserve early.
         Reservations on the older line, from Paris<->Lyons etc,
	 are 12 francs.  Reservations on the newer, faster,
	 Paris-Nantes line are 62 francs.  Reservations on
	 other trains are not necessary, but if you've got 
         the bucks to buy the first class railpass, you might
         as well.  Standing in first class isn't much better
         than standing in second class.  Reservations on the
         slow trains are (I think) 12 francs.  I've never 
         made such reservations, and haven't had much trouble
         getting a seat.  There are usually more empty seats
         in first class than in second class.  If you don't
         make a seat reservation, get on the train as soon as
         you can. 

------------------------------------

From: carols@drilex.UUCP (Carol Springs)
Subject: Re: Rail passes in Germany/France/Austria/Hungary/Benelux/Italy
Date: 24 Jun 90 01:26:46 GMT

In article <1124@wrs.wrs.com> james@yuba.wrs.com (James Moore) writes:

>                     Any comments about buying local passes rather
>than Eurail?

Since you mention Benelux, I'll pass on some info on rail passes
available for the Netherlands.  While still in the U.S. or Canada, you
can order discount rail passes from the Netherlands Service Center for
Tourism in Chicago or Toronto, respectively.  Descriptions and prices 
are as follows:  [[1990 prices]]

       The 7-Day Rail Ranger
       Unlimited rail travel in Holland for seven consecutive
         days.
       1st Class:      US $81 / CAN $94
       2nd Class:      US $55 / CAN $64    

       Public Transport Link Ranger
       Issued only in conjunction with the 7-Day Rail Ranger,
         and covering the same seven-day period, for unlimited
         travel on Dutch public buses, trams and metros.
       US $10.30 / CAN $11.90

       The Holland Rail Pass  [this is the kind we got]
       Unlimited train travel in Holland for any three days
         during a set period of 15 days.  [doesn't have to be
         consecutive days] 
       1st Class:      US $47.50 / CAN $54.50
       2nd Class:      US $37.50 / CAN $43.50
       Children up to age three, accompanied by an adult,
         travel free, and from age four to 11 for US $1.50 /
         CAN $1.75 in First or Second Class.

       Benelux Tourrail Pass
       Unlimited travel in Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg
         for any five days during a set period of 17 days.
         Also good for travel on railway buses in
         Luxembourg.
       1st Class:      US $107 / CAN $123.50
       2nd Class:      US $72 / CAN $82.40

                 Junior Tourrail Pass (Under Age 26)
                 1st Class:      US $76 / CAN $87
                 2nd Class:      US $51 / CAN $58.20 

The Holland Leisure Card, available from the Service Centers for 
US $12 / CAN $15, offers a variety of discounts including 40 per cent
discounts on rail day passes bought *in the Netherlands* (normally
1st class Dfl. 78.00, 2nd class Dfl 53.00) when you show the card, and
a one-time voucher for 40 per cent off any 1st or 2nd class regular 
rail ticket. 

The addresses and phone numbers of the Netherlands Service Centers are
below.  If you're not phoning in your order you should first order their
"Holland" brochure which has all the ordering info you'll need.  Postage
charges and, in some cases, local sales tax apply to the Holland Leisure
Card and other nonpass merchandise.  They take Visa, MasterCard, and 
AmEx.  You have to supply names and passport numbers to get the rail
passes.

       USA:
         Netherlands Board of Tourism
         225 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 326
         Chicago, IL  60601

       CANADA:
         Netherlands Board of Tourism
         25 Adelaide Street East, Suite 710
         Toronto, Ontario  M5C 1Y2 

The NBT also has offices in New York City and California, which explains
some of the phone numbers below:

       New York         212-370-7367
       San Francisco    415-543-6772
       Los Angeles      213-678-8802
       Chicago          312-819-0300
       Toronto          416-363-1577  

Hope this helps.

--

From: Ajay.Modi@CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Re: RAIL PASSES FOR SCANDINAVIA
Date: 5 Jul 90 20:20:27 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I had spent the summer of 1988 working in Norway and while there obtained
a 21-day Nordturist Pass to travel around Scandinavia. I thought it was
excellent value for money. If I remember correctly, it cost me 1050 Norwegian
Kroner, which was about $175 according to the exchange rate prevailing then.
It is valid from the day you first use it and is good for Norway, Sweden,
Finland and Denmark.

I wouldn't bother about a First Class Pass. I never had any trouble getting
a seat on a train. The only trouble about rail travel in Scandinavia is
that the tracks don't run in the northern most parts of this region. If you
want to get to the North Cape (the nothernmost point in continental Europe),
you will have to use alternative modes of travel, such as the plane, bus or the
coastal steamer that ploughs up and down the coast of Norway.

The Scanrail Pass is new to me so I can't offer any advice about it.


------------------
From: stevem@fai.UUCP (Steven A. Minneman )
Subject: Re: Eurail passes
Date: 24 Jan 91 23:27:39 GMT
Organization: Fujitsu Network Switching of America, Inc.

In article <2809@ac.dal.ca> guruman@ac.dal.ca writes:
>Has anyone ever used a Eurail Flexipass (i.e. 15 days of travel in 3 mos.)?

I used the version of the Eurail Flexipass which provides 5 days of travel
in a 15 day period, last summer.   It was great.  I used it from Nice to
Munich via Venice, to Stuttgart, and to Paris.  You can actually start
traveling after 8 PM on the evening prior and it only counts as one day.
We did most of our traveling on night trains which saved getting a hotel
that night.  We used both the first class sleeper and the "coachette" (a
room with four bunks).  The sleeper required an additional charge of $52 
per person and provided total privacy.  The coachette was only about $10
more per person, but provided little privacy.  However, we happened to
share the coachette (I don't think I'm spelling that right) with a couple
from Sacramento, Ca (about 90 miles from our home) which was interesting.
Bottom line: if you want total privacy get the sleeper, otherwise the
coachette is a better deal.
>How do they compare to the regular youthpass?
Don't know.

>Is first class necessary in Europe if I am travelling in May?
probably not, unless you want to get sleepers -- however, I'm not sure
whether the flexipass comes in second class.
-- 
Steven A. Minneman
Fujitsu Network Switching of America Inc.
3055 Orchard Drive
San Jose, California 95134-2022

(stevem@fai.fai.com)

----------------------------
From: jneff@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov (JIM NEFF)
Subject: Re: Using Eurail in Germany
Date: 14 Mar 91 14:10:33 GMT

In article <3971@ac.dal.ca>, guruman@ac.dal.ca writes...
> 
>	I may be too early to ask this question, but does anyone know the 
>status of using a Eurail pass in what was formerly East Germany?  I know
>that you had to pay before for transit to Berlin, but has that changed
>now?


I'm looking at the Eurail 1991 brochure, price list, and order form.
ALL of Germany is now available on the Eurailpass.  Hungary is on there (like
last year), but no other "eastern" European country.

Jim Neff
jneff@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov

----------------------------

From: leblanc@cs.ubc.ca (David LeBlanc)
Subject: Re: Eurorail
Date: 9 May 91 20:09:59 GMT

In article <1991May8.131026.8567@eua.ericsson.se> euamts@eua.ericsson.se (Mats Henricson) writes:
#ugurdag@sandy.CES.CWRU.Edu (Fatih Ugurdag) writes:
#
#
#>Do they still have the Eurorail deal in Europe?
#
#Yes! It costs something like US$300 if you're under 26 (27?). Otherwise
#you have to pay another US$160 extra. Many more countries now. Just a
#few refuses to let you in. Remember your visa ! :-(
#
#>Fatih Ugurdag from Istanbul, Turkiye.
#
#Mats Henricson, Sweden

I imagine most Europeans know this, but not all NAs seem to:
There are different European rail passes for Europeans and non-Europeans.

Europeans (or those residing in Europe for a minimum of 6 months) under the
age of 26 (or 26 and under?) can purchase an interrail ticket anywhere
in Europe. It allows you 1/2 price travel in the country of purchase and
'free' travel in all other European countries.

North Americans do not qualify for Interrail, but can get a more expensive,
less usefull version known as Eurrail. A Eurrail pass must be bought in
North America (although I've heard rumours that certain ticket offices in 
France carry them), usually before departing for your trip. Almost all student
travel agents will carry them and most other agents will know how to get the
info. The Eurrail pass comes in many different versions, depending upon age
and length of time they're valid. The traditional Eurrail pass tends to be a
bit of a rip-off as you have to travel ALOT within a short period of time
to make it pay off (remember if you qualify for a youth Eurrail pass, then
you'll qualify for youth discounts on individual tickets), although I hear
that they now have passes for X days travel within Y days - probably a
better deal.

So, if you're looking to get a Eurrail pass, I suggest you do your homework.
Get a good travel agent and compare the price of a Eurrail ticket to the
price of the individual fares (including discounts). If it works out to be
relatively the same, why get the Eurrail? You can always get a ticket for the
train (second class has no reservations, or 'load limits') and not being
tied to a ticket gives you the flexibility to stay in one place for a while
without feeling guilty.

David LeBlanc

----------------------------

From: prussak@cs.Buffalo.EDU (Michal Prussak)
Subject: Re: Eurorail
Date: 9 May 91 20:47:43 GMT

In addition to Eurail pass, there are a few other passes one
can get. Last year I travelled around France with Carte Jeune.
Carte Jeune costs 160 FF (about $30) and entitles the bearer to 50% discount on all tickets during the blue period. The blue period excludes
a couple of days each month when the train traffic is busiest.

In addition to 50% discount, one is entitled to a free couchette
(a sleeping place), if there is one available at the time of boarding
the train. Holders of Carte Jeune can also get similar passes in
other countries at reduced rates. I recall there was also a
free or reduced fare crossing to Corsica.

For international train travel, people under 26 can get 50%
discount for a Transalpino or BIJ ticket. This works only
between major cities. - This is without any passes.

I found out that for me Eurail pass was more expensive, as 
compared to Carte Jeune and BIJ tickets. I guess Eurail pass
is good if one travels about every other day around all of
Europe. For travel within one country it's probably better
to buy a pass just for that country.

Michal

----------------------------------

From: jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk (John Kingston)
Subject: Re: EuroTrain vs. EurRail..
Date: 13 May 91 10:03:06 GMT

In article <1991May9.222544.8522@colorado.edu> schmitz@spot.Colorado.EDU (SCHMITZ DAVID GLENN) writes:
>
> Has anyone ever heard of a EuroTrain pass (not Eurail !!).  I've seen
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>several advertisments in some student travel brochures and I was wondering
>if anyone could tell me what the difference is between a EuroTrain and
>a Eurail pass.  I know that Eurail passes must be purchased before arriving
>in Europe and that EuroTrain passes can only be purchased after arriving.
>It also, seems that there is quite a bit difference in cost.  Has anyone
>ever traveled on a EuroTrain pass ? Is it a deal or not ?
>
>  -Dave

If I remember rightly, Eurotrain is a lesser known competitor of
Transalpino. These companies do not sell rail passes, but multi-stop rail
tickets instead. A typical ticket might take you from London to Vienna with
stops in Brussels, Cologne (Koln), Munich and Salzburg, returning via
Innsbruck, Zurich and Paris. Regulations used to be similar to the rail passes
(under 26 or student, valid for several weeks), although they might have
changed recently. Prices are not far short of a full Inter-Rail pass
(currently about 175 pounds) for the longer trips which is probably why you
haven't heard of them - Inter Rail works out better value for most
Europeans. 

John Kingston, AI Applications Institute, University of Edinburgh,
	       80 South Bridge, Edinburgh EH1 1HN, Scotland
E-mail jkk@uk.ac.ed.aiai, phone 031-650 2736   FAX: 031 226 2730
Arpanet: J.Kingston%ed.ac.uk@nfsnet-relay.ac.uk    TELEX: 727442 UNIVED G

--------------------------

From: leblanc@cs.ubc.ca (David LeBlanc)
Subject: Re: INTER-RAIL for over 26s
Date: 11 Jun 91 19:31:04 GMT

In article <1991Jun11.093040.4149@udcf.glasgow.ac.uk> woody@udcf.glasgow.ac.uk (Ian Woodrow) writes:
#People may be interested to know that the famous Inter-rail 1 month unlimited
#train travel in Europe for under 26 year olds is now available for over 26s.
#The under 26 one costs 175 pounds for 1 month.
#
#The over 26 costs 175 for 15 days;  235 for 1 month.
#
#Valid countries are:  ALL of Europe (including Czech, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria
#                       all of Germany AND Turkey).  Morocco.
#        NOT valid in Albania.  The british one is not valid in UK.  There is
#        probably a similar arrangement in the other countries, ie. If you are
#        French then you get a French inter-rail valid everywhere except France.
#
#The 15 day ticket is not valid in Spain, Portugal or Morocco but is OK in the
#other 21 countries.

And North Americans may be interested to know that, unless things have changed
recently, the Interrail pass is only available to European citizens or persons
residing in Europe for the previous (min.) 6 months.

David LeBlanc

----------------------------

From: klp@meridian.Eng.Sun.COM (Kelly Palmer)
Subject: Re: How necessary are reservations with a Eurail pass?
Date: 28 Jun 91 16:54:29 GMT

I bought a 30 day Eurail pass to travel in France and Italy Dec 15 -
Jan 15 (about 6 months ago).  I first tried to make reservations only
when I was going on an overnight trip and wanted a couchette.  This
worked out fine and they didn't charge me an extra fee for the reservation,
only the couchette fee (about $20).  Then I had a terrible experience
traveling from Florence to Torino.  It was a day trip, but a long one,
and all the seats were reserved in advance, so I had to stand for a few
hours on that trip.  The train was so crowded that there was barely
room to stand and all of the entry ways were packed so it was difficult
even getting to the bathroom.  

On other trips, the trains were almost empty, but I made reservations
on some trips that I thought would possibly be full.  The time I
was travelling was off season, so in high season I'd recommend reservations
or you might be sitting in the corridor.

----------------------------

From: changj@cs.rpi.edu (John Chang)
Subject: Italy train price-list
Date: 8 Jul 91 22:02:51 GMT

...
Here is a
list of price of train travel Italy someone sent me and requested that I
post it here:


---------------- Italian Railways fares (Lit.) --------------------

Km      1st class      2nd class       Intercity (additional charge)
                                        1st class     2nd class

100        10,700        6,300           4,100         2,700
200        20,800        12,200          8,000         4,700
300        30,800        18,200          11,800        7,000
400        40,900        24,100          15,700        9,200
500        51,000        30,000          19,500        11,500
600        61,100        35,900          23,400        13,800
700        71,100        41,900          27,200        16,000
800        81,200        47,800          31,100        18,300
900        91,300        53,700          34,900        20,600
1000       101,400       59,600          38,800        22,800
1500       112,300       66,100          42,900        25,300
2000       123,200       72,500          47,100        27,700
3000       145,000       85,300          55,500        32,600

Reservation (optional)   3,700
Couchette  (additional)  16,800

Milano-Venezia       Km 267
Milano-Torino        Km 153
Milano-Bologna       Km 219
Milano-Firenze       Km 316
Milano-Roma          Km 632
Roma-Napoli          Km 214
Roma-Reggio Calabria Km 663
Messina-Palermo      Km 232

--------------------------------

From: steveb@cernvax.cern.ch (Steve Bougerolle)
Subject: Re: Buying Eurail passes in Australia and SE Asia (questions).
Date: 22 Jul 91 08:02:40 GMT

In <1991Jul21.230132.18312@esd.dl.nec.com> n2400ims@esd.dl.nec.com (K.J.R.) writes:

>I'll be buying a 3 month Eurail pass some time next spring, but because
>of the rules, I'll have to buy it from Australia or South East Asia,
>instead of here at home in the US.

>First, you have to buy the pass outside of Europe.  Second, you have to
>begin using the pass within 6 months of when you buy it.  I'm going on
>a one-year trip, and I won't get to Europe until after the 6 months are
>up.

It isn't advertised, but you CAN buy these passes here [[ie, in Europe --df]],
in a few spots,
anyway.  I've never bought one myself, but I stood in line behind somebody
who bought one in Madrid.  I've heard that it's possible to do much the same
in most of the really big cities here.  And I believe TravelCUTS in London
actually advertises them.  You just have to prove that you're not European.

Now, whether it's a good deal or not is still another matter... These passes
are a great deal in northern Europe, Switzerland and Austria but usually
not worth getting in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, or Greece. And the
last I heard they're still not valid in Britain.  (But then, the last I
heard there was no such thing as a 3-month pass, either).

Personally, between "under 26" tickets, blue days and local deals such as my
Swiss half-fare card, I've never yet found it worth my while to get either
a Eurail or an Inter-rail pass although I qualify for both now.

--------------

From: bobp@hpcvnb.CV.HP.COM (bob_pownall)
Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Re: Toll-free numbers for Eurrail and German Rail
Date: 30 Jul 91 19:08:04 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, Oregon

Wayne Citrin (citrin@boulder.colorado.edu) provided some information on
toll-free numbers for Eurrail and German Rail.  I called the Eurrail number
and got an answering machine with the following (summarized) information:

  If you are a travel agent, call 1-800-848-7245.

  If you want to order a Eurrail or Britrail pass, or a free catalog,
  call 1-800-722-7151.  Have your Visa or Mastercard ready when ordering
  rail passes.

  If you want other information, call 1-614-793-7650.

Bob Pownall  bobp@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com

--------------------

From: obejas@marsc2i.sedd.trw.com
Subject: Re: Toll-free numbers for Eurrail and German Rail
Date: 14 Aug 91 03:11:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

bobp@hpcvnb.CV.HP.COM (bob_pownall) writes...

>Wayne Citrin (citrin@boulder.colorado.edu) provided some information on
>toll-free numbers for Eurrail and German Rail.  I called the Eurrail number
>and got an answering machine with the following (summarized) information:
> 
>  If you are a travel agent, call 1-800-848-7245.
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
It does not matter if you are a travel agent. This number is for Rail Europe. 

> 
>  If you want to order a Eurrail or Britrail pass, or a free catalog,
>  call 1-800-722-7151.  Have your Visa or Mastercard ready when ordering
>  rail passes.
> 
>  If you want other information, call 1-614-793-7650.
> 
>Bob Pownall  bobp@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com

Try these also:
EURAIL 24 hours        1-800-438-7245    
                             ^^^---not a typo!
German Rail            1-800-272-2337  order desk
                         708-692-4209  7-10 (PST) M-F  point-to-point info
                         708-692-9296  10-1 (PST) M-F  point-to-point info
                         900-370-3030  7-3  (PST) M-F ditto

Mario 

--------------------------------------

From: ehr@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Ernest H. Robl)
Subject: Re: Eurail Passes cheaper in Europe?
Summary: Eurail on TGV -- yes
Date: 16 Oct 91 21:07:11 GMT
Organization: UNC Educational Computing Service

In article <1991Oct16.144348.17445@iplmail.orl.mmc.com>, keithw@iplmail.orl.mmc.com (Keith Wong) writes:

 ... [other material deleted] ...

> 
> Can I also use the Eurail pass on the TGV in France? I assume there may be an
> additional charge.


 ... [deleted] ... 

Yes, the Eurail pass is valid on TGV lines, and you do not need to 
pay the TGV supplement required of other ticketholders.  However,
TGV trains have mandatory seat reservation requirements, and you
must reserve a seat in order to ride.  This should cost you about
F16.00 (around $3) per trip.

Although there are vending machines for these reservations, I've
usually had problems with them, particularly that they end up 
trying to charge me more than I really needed to pay -- even after
I specified that I already had a valid ticket.  So, go to a ticket
window, show them the Eurail pass and indicate that you only want
the seat reservation.  You also get more choice that way.  You can
ask for a window seat, which, I don't think, the vending machines
will let you do.

In my opinion the seat reservation requirement is somewhat silly as
most of the TGVs I rode (within the last two weeks) had plenty of
empty seats.  In one case, had I not had to get the seat reservation,
I would have been able to get on an earlier train.

The Germans, on the other hand, deliberately decided not to require
seat reservations on their ICE trains -- though you can reserve, if
you want to.  I always found a seat on those, too, though they were
quite heavily occupied.

-- Ernest
-------------------------


Newsgroups: rec.travel
Subject: Eurail Passes: upcoming price increase
Date: 9 Dec 91 23:07:09 GMT
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton

mitch@stb.info.com (Mitch) wrote: 
->I, too, will be visiting Europe in the Spring, and hope to tour
->for several months as cheaply as possible.  I am interested in Eurail
->and hostel information and advice, and especially hints on travelling
->in the East, Bohemia and Hungary.  Are they now on some kind of Greater
->Europe Rail Pass e.t.c.

a blurb in this sunday's travel section notes that the cost of a
Eurailpass will increase after the near year as much as US$52 ...
after 1 jan, a 15-day pass (which now costs $390) will cost $430 ...
the 21-day pass (now $498) will cost $550.

eurail passes must be activated any time during the six-month period
following purchase, so you can purchase a eurail pass on 31 december
and not actually start using it until june.

--
# henry mensch / advanced decision systems / <henry@ads.com>

----------------------------------

Subject: Re: Interrail Queries - Europe by train
Date: 12 Feb 92 08:51:28 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Service

bakker@cs.uq.oz.au (Paultje Bakker) writes:


>Would anyone be able to post a price list for Interrail
>for 1992? 


Inter-snail is 180.00 UKL this year for one month travel in all Europe except 
Albania (big deal - the only rail lines there don't koin it with the rest of
Europe anyway) and the old Soviet Union.  You never know - come next year some
of the ex USSR states might accept it to encourage tourism.  
You can use it in the whole of Turkey - right to the Syrian & Iraqi borders, 
so you can lob stuff at the border guards :-)

If you are over 26 you can get Intersnail 26+ .. one month for 260.00, or 15
days for 180.00   -   it covers all the countries that intersnail does except
Spain cause they are a bunch of miserable pig-dogs.  That means if you want to
get to Portugal or Morocco you need to give money to the Spanish snailways -
NO WAY JOSE - they don't deserve it.

----------------------------------

From: woody@udcf.glasgow.ac.uk (I.Woodrow)
Subject: Re: Interrail Queries - Europe by train
Date: 17 Feb 92 15:12:48 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Service

bakker@cs.uq.oz.au (Paultje Bakker) writes:

>So, could someone puh-leeze post a *full* price-list?

Interrail (for people uinder 26)   1 month     180.00 UKL

Interrail 26+                     15 days      180.00 UKL
                                   1 month     260.00 UKL (I think it's 260,
                                                           roundabout that
                                                           anyway; 260/240)
----------------------------------------

From: simon@cs.city.ac.uk (Simon Brock-Gunn)
Subject: British Rail
Date: 11 Mar 92 11:48:53 GMT
Organization: City University, London

Since I have seen quite a few queries from outside the UK about prices 
of tickets on British Rail (together with some slightly confused :-) 
answers), I thought it might be helpful to post the following information,
which details the various types of tickets you can buy for travel on 
InterCity trains in Britain, in ascending order of expense.

Prices given are for London to Edinburgh, as an example, but the
relative difference between them is about the same wherever you travel.

Apex - 44 pounds.  You must book at least a week in advance and specify 
which outward and return trains you want to travel on - seat reservations
are included in the cost.  You can travel on almost any train as long as
your journey is at least 150 miles each way, but only a limited number 
of seats are available on each train.  Once the booking is made you cannot 
change your plans without incurring a penalty (5 pounds if you change more 
than seven days before you are due to travel, 50% of the ticket price if 
after).

SuperSaver return - 57 pounds.  You can book any time up until before you
travel.  You can use any train there or back except leaving London before
about 0900 or between about 1600 and 1800 (these times vary according to 
where you are travelling to, and there are no such restrictions on journeys 
to Scotland), but you cannot travel out or back on a Friday, a summer 
Saturday, or certain days around bank holidays (these are known as white 
days). 

Saver return - 67 pounds.  As for the SuperSaver, but with no restrictions
on days of travel and sometimes less restriction on times of travel
(again, according to destination).

Open single - 57 pounds; Open return - 114 pounds.  Removes any restriction 
on day or time of travel.  On one or two of the busier trains to many 
destinations you also get to travel in 'Silver Standard' accommodation
which is the same as normal, but you get 'complimentary' tea or coffee and
seat reservation.  I wouldn't recommend it unless you really can't travel 
at other times or enjoy paying 50 pounds for a cup of coffee.

I would always advise that you book seats in advance, which can be done any 
time up to two hours before the train leaves its first station.  This costs 
a pound for up to four people per journey and you can specify 
smoking/non-smoking, window/aisle seat and facing/back to direction of 
travel.  On the busiest trains, reservation is compulsory and this charge 
is waived.  You may have to show your travel tickets when reserving seats, 
but the reservation is entirely separate from your travel ticket, and you 
are not obliged to take up the reservation if you change your plans.

Finally, if you want to travel in style, I would recommend that you travel 
on a Saturday, Sunday or bank holiday when you can sit in "Weekend First" 
(unless you are travelling on an Apex ticket) - a first class compartment 
marked with window stickers - for three pounds supplement each way (payable 
on the train, or bookable in advance in place of a normal seat reservation).
I do this quite often and find it a very relaxing and civilised way to 
travel!

If you are 24 or under, 60 or over, disabled or a full-time student you
can get a railcard for 16 pounds which gets you one-third off most British
Rail fares (but not the Apex) which lasts for a year and can pay for itself 
with just one journey.

All tickets can be bought from any British Rail station, but reservations
normally have to be made at a travel centre which can usually be found in
the larger stations.  Staff in these centres also have more time to help
you if you are unsure about which ticket you need, when to travel, etc.

I hope this information is helpful to anyone planning to visit Britain in
the near future - bon voyage!

------------------------------------
From: jeffh@brl.mil (Jeff Hanes (VLD/VMB) <jeffh>)
Subject: Re: Is a Eurail Pass really worth it????
Date: 17 Apr 92 21:41:22 GMT

In article <BETSYS.92Apr16165600@ra.cs.umb.edu>, betsys@cs.umb.edu (Elizabeth Schwartz) writes:
|>     I'd like to solicit opinions from people on whether or not you
|> felt you got your money's worth from your train pass. Was it first
|> or second class? Did you figure out how much your trip would have cost
|> without the pass? And, has anyone here tried a Flexi-Pass?

I was in Europe for almost three weeks and got the Eurail Flexi-pass.
(I forget the number of days of travel it provided.)  I kept track of
the second-class fare for all my travelling and it worked out to be
only slightly less expensive (about US$10-25) than the Eurail pass.
I travelled from Amsterdam->Brussels->Paris->Annecy->Nice, then back
up to Paris and finally returned to Amsterdam to catch my flight back
to the US.  I might have travelled less if I hadn't had the Eurail pass,
though.  It's kind of a tough call; if you want to stay put and really
explore one region, don't get the Eurail pass.  If you want to cover a
lot of territory, the Eurail pass is probably the best way to do it.

A standard trick is to catch a night train when you want to make
a longer journey (6-8 hours).  Then you sleep in the first class
compartment, saving yourself one night's hotel fee (I did this twice
on my trip ... not included in my price comparison).  They will
only charge you for one day of your Flexi-pass if you catch a train
leaving after 10pm (that was the policy in France, at least; anyone
know if that's true in general?)

On at least one occasion, I was really grateful for the first class
accomodations:  on one of my night trains, the second class cars had
standing room only!  Fortunately, there was only one other person in
my first class compartment, so I got a decent night's sleep.  The only
problem was that the overflow had partially filled the hall in the
first class car, so when I needed to go to the bathroom in the middle
of the night, I had to step over sleeping bodies and throw two people
out of the micro-bathroom (*not* what I was expecting in first class)!
The morning ride from Marseilles to Nice along the Cote d'Azur made
it worthwhile, though.  (Now I understand why rich people go there
so much.)

Hope that helps,
Jeff Hanes

----------------------

From: citrin@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Wayne Citrin)
Subject: Some railpass information
Date: 27 Apr 92 14:58:19 GMT

A number of people have been asking questions about Eurail passes recently.
My feeling is that the YouthPass is a good deal if you're going the Grand
Tour, but that the regular Eurail pass isn't worth it unless you're planning
to spend your whole trip on the train.  They seem to capitalize on Americans'
fear of buying tickets in a foreign railway station, or dealing in a foreign 
language.

I've come to the conclusion that there are some good railpass deals out there,
though.  One, the Italian railpass, is not available through Rail Europe
(the Eurail agent), but only throught he Italian Tourist Board.  If you're
going to spend a fair abount of your time in Italy, you might consider getting 
one.  Here is a comparison of prices between Eurail and the Italian pass:

Term		Eurail (1st cl)	Ital (1st cl)	Ital (2nd cl)
----------	---------------	-------------	-------------
RAILPASSES
  8 days	   -----	  $206		   $136
 15 days	   $430		  $258		   $172
 21 days	   $550		  $298		   $198
 30 days	   $680		  $360		   $240

FLEXIPASSES
  4/9 days	   -----	  $154		   $104
  5/15 days	   $280		  -----		   -----
  8,9/21	   $450 (9/21)	  $226 (8/21)	   $148 (8/21)
  12,14/30	   $610 (14/30)	  $264 (12/30)	   $190 (12/30)

To give you an idea of how much trains cost in Italy, a 2nd class one-way
ticket from Rome to Venice costs about 50,000 lire (about $40 - Italian
train prices in general are pretty cheap).  

You can get an Italian rail pass through your travel agent, or directly
from CIT Tours:

CIT Tours				CIT Tours
6033 W. Century Blvd, Suite 980		594 Broadway
Los Angeles, CA 90045			New York, NY 10012

(213) 338-8616				(212) 274-0593

Wayne
-----------
Wayne Citrin   citrin@soglio.colorado.edu   citrin@cs.colorado.edu

------------------------------------

From: barry@Software.Mitel.COM (Barry King)
Subject: Re: Eurail Pass and Supplements.
Date: 22 Sep 92 14:08:54 GMT


	I was just in Europe and did not find any couchette supplement
to be less than 16 US$. I have to admit that I did not get a couchette
on a German or Dutch train but the price was approximately $16 on both
French and Italian trains.

	I found that if the train is not crowded that getting a seat
compartment is just as good. Seats on all European trains (ie. the ones
I was on) will pull out flat. If the seat across from you is unoccupied
you may pull it out as well which basically makes a couchette for you
saving you the $16. Note however this was the budget approach meaning
you'll have to sleep in your clothes and without any sheets which are 
supplied with couchettes. Other drawbacks to this is that you tend to
get bothered by the ticket people more if you do not have a couchette
which makes for interrupted sleeping and some overnight trains only
have couchette cars which means you'll have to make sure you 
find the right train with regular seating.

	By the way in order to insure you get a couchette, reserve
ahead of time. It is possible to get a couchette when you get to
the train as long as its O.K. with the conductor. He is usually a little
busy when you need to talk to him about this and quite often doesn't
speak alot of english if you don't know any european languages. So in
general its kind of a hassle as well as you'll be taking a chance of the
train being full which happens fairly regularly.  

Just my experience,

Barry King
------------------------------------

From: efenster@igc.apc.org (Eric Fenster)
Subject: French train fares soar
Date: 8 Nov 92 15:29:00 GMT

 Part of the lore of Reaganomics has been hiding tax increases under such
euphemisms as "revenue enhancements."  The French National Railways, SNCF,
has also indulged in this form of financial trickery in the last decade.
 French train fares used to be strictly based on a per kilometer charge.
With the first high speed TGV trains came the first trick.  The fare from
Paris to Lyon was the same in classic and TGV trains, but the new rail
line was 90km, about 20%, shorter--and a paid seat reservation was
obligatory.
 After the inauguration of the TGV Atlantique, a four-level supplement &
reservation policy was extended across the country with higher charges on
trains with higher demand.  The "yield-management" types were let loose on
France! A reservation/supplement now ranges from $3.20 to $16.00 in 2nd
class, or even $22 if a trip requires travel on both TGV lines. This can
translate, for example, to a supplement between Paris and Bordeaux of up
to 30%.
 Fares are no longer calculated by kilometer and are digressive with
distance, but there's a new hitch.  Across Europe, one can make unlimited
stopovers during a train trip. That was true in France, too, until a few
months ago; now stopovers are forbidden, and that benefit of digressive
fares has been taken back.
 Recently, France introduced reduced advance purchase prices, called JOKER
Fares--a break at last in the rigid fare structure. There were big
discounts for tickets bought 45 days ahead, smaller reductions when bought
15 days ahead. The honeymoon was short. On 27 Sept 92, fares on some
routes went up as much as 20%.  Is this why they were called Joker fares?
 Finally, the Inter Rail card which allowed European youth to travel at a
fixed price (like the Eurail Pass) is being abandoned, largely on the
argument that it's "old" and it's time for a change.  In its place, the
SNCF is offering a youth card which allows 5 days of unlimited travel in
France for about $153. To make that pay, compared to ordinary fares, one
would have to spend much of the 5 days in a train.  These cards, with
their 5-day limits, would be absolutely worthless for people coming from
the north and, say, transiting France on the way to Italy and south (or
vice versa).
  What a way to encourage young people to learn about another country!
Worse, it would be necessary to buy such a card for each country visited.
 Meanwhile, the SNCF continues to pretend that its regular fare increases
are just a few points above the 3% inflation level.

----------------------------------------------------

From: dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)
Subject: Re: French train fares soar
Date: 10 Nov 92 00:34:47 GMT

In article <haertig.721315918@gmd.de> haertig@gmd.de (Hermann Haertig) writes:
 > In <1460300129@igc.apc.org> Eric Fenster <efenster@igc.apc.org> writes:
 > 
 > > Finally, the Inter Rail card which allowed European youth to travel at a
 > >fixed price (like the Eurail Pass) is being abandoned, largely on the
 > >argument that it's "old" and it's time for a change.
 > 
 > No! It is still available (currently for DM 510.-).
 > 
Is it valid currently in France?  Either now or on the start of the next
summer timetable the Inter Rail will no longer be valid in France, Italy,
Spain and Portugal.  The reason is simple.  Most people buying those passes
come from the North European countries and most travel was in the South
European countries.  So the benefit was for the Northern Europeans.
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl

------------------------------------------

From: endecotp@cs.man.ac.uk (PB Endecott (PhD SFurber))
Subject: Re: French train fares soar
Date: 11 Nov 92 12:28:12 GMT

haertig@gmd.de (Hermann Haertig) writes:

>In <1460300129@igc.apc.org> Eric Fenster <efenster@igc.apc.org> writes:

>> Finally, the Inter Rail card which allowed European youth to travel at a
>>fixed price (like the Eurail Pass) is being abandoned, largely on the
>>argument that it's "old" and it's time for a change.

>No! It is still available (currently for DM 510.-).

>--hermann haertig

Yes!  It is true, France is pulling out of InterRail, as are (I think)
Italy and Spain.  Most of the other countries remain for the time being,
but with only the British Isles, Germany, Benelux, Scandinavia, and Eastern
Europe, and none of the atractive "sunny" contries, there is a good chance
that the whole scheme will colapse.

--Phil.



 