==================================================================== (C) 1992 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== Topic 20 Thu Aug 13, 1992 STRAMIEL [Atari CEO] at 15:41 EDT Sub: Atari Falcon 030 Computer Discussions on the Atari Falcon 030 Computer, being unveiled at the Duesseldorf Atari Messe August 21-23 in Germany. Be sure to check the CO transcript from the library, file #25262, FALCONCO.LZH 211 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 1 Wed Sep 09, 1992 D.GORDON2 [DENNIS] at 21:56 EDT I hesitate to jump into this cauldron of mouse-talk, VGA-speak, IBM wars and color coordination angst to pose this: As a non-techie computer user who uses his ST daily for DTP (Calamus etc.) and quite often for MIDI (SMPREtrak), what advantages does the 16mhz 68030 Falcon offer me over the 16Mhz 68000 Mega STE, which everyone seems to agree is a pretty neat machine, and will presumably be discounted a bit more when the Falcons begin to roll. I don't give a hoot about whether or not blah blah wordprocessor is supported or not. I like the productivity software I already have, and will continue to support Atari simply because I like the way the machine works. So what makes the Falcon better for my purposes? ....You may resume your arguing ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 2 Thu Sep 10, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:59 EDT Can anyone at Atari tell us whether the Falcon030 will come with a programming language, like even a new Falcon BASIC or somesuch? In other words, will it come with the same lame ST BASIC, a new programming application, or nothing? So did anything interesting come out of the Bill Rehbock conference? Also, could someone at Atari like Bob or Bill confirm whether or not Sam's promise of limited availability of the Falcon030 in North America come mid-late October will be kept? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 3 Thu Sep 10, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 16:22 EDT I believe that the Language Disk will be filled with more useful things that a programming language. Most users really don't have the desire to write code or programs. They want to use them. Read the transcript yourself, steve! ;-) As for our projected delivery to the North America in Late October, as far as I know this is still the case. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 4 Thu Sep 10, 1992 R.WILSON36 [Bob Wilson] at 18:14 EDT Thunderbird, depends what you call cheap. AN ATI VGA WONDER XL sells for 199 Canadian (165US) with 1 meg of video RAM. While I have continually been told that Windows graphics are slow I fail to find that to be the case in comparing my MEGA STE with my clone. To see just how slow my clone was I wrote a GFA basic program which drew lines on my mono STE screen (with Warp 9) and did the same in GFA for windows The clone was about 15 times as fast. Maybe for full screen bliting etc the dos box is slow but that is a relatively restricted subset. With local bus video (which I do not have) I would expect the video speeds of the clones to get somewhat closer to the ST line in any event. I think that the FALCON is a great box on spec but there really are far too many individuals here spouting off about DOS boxes when it appears that they haven't looked at one since the AT days. If one underestimates the competition one tends to lose the battle. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 5 Thu Sep 10, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:45 EDT Bob Wilson: I'm sorry but you'll have to quote me the specs on that ATI VGA WONDER XL for $199. I don't have a computer shopper handy to look it up. However, I'd bet a weeks pay that you can't plug a (standard) VCR into the thing and record animations, etc. and another weeks pay that you can't do overscan with it. I assume (since you mentioned this card) that it can do 640x480x65536? Anything with a max of less than 32000 colors onscreen doesn't count here. Also, your graphics comparison isn't really valid in this case. There are too many unknown factors which could cause your erroneous results. An examination of your code would be nice. Here's a list of simple explanations: 1) You only made VDI calls on the STe (or GFA did). VDI does a lot of things it really doesn't have to do in order to draw on the screen. This software adds a lot of overhead onto the time to draw _anything_. 2) GFA basic has a lot of versions which do different things. Perhaps you have a "compiled" windows version and an "interpreted" STe version. If you need a run-time module or something similar to run the STe version, then naturally it will be slow. 3) You didn't use the BLiTTER. 4) Your programs didn't draw lines at the same angles or lengths on each machine. 5) Your VGA card has a "windows accelerator" or something. (This is like a BLiTTER for windows). And so on. Suffice it to say that DOS boxes are very, very slow in the graphics dept. Why do you think that they are just now coming round to "Local Bus Video"?? When the users get ahold of the Falcon030's, you'll see some line drawing you'll never forget. Trust me. In any case, try and find a "Local Bus Video" PC that can do True Color. They either don't exist, or they are really expensive, or they simply make the CPU wait. The bandwidth to run CPU and video on the same RAM isn't cheap. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 6 Thu Sep 10, 1992 B.GRIER at 23:03 EDT Well it's soapbox time... First always compare Apples to Ataris, no wait oranges to oranges. Beacuse to things like memory access states compare an Atari ST only to an 8Mhz 80286, or 80386SX running at 8Mhz, bus width has little to do with it. The ST will typically out perform a comparable clone, massive understatement. The problem, if it really is a problem, Atari computers have with video memory is its organization. A different organization would produce different results, some better some worse. Use of video-rams, used to the faster VGA cards, would remove any memory contention except during horizontal re-trace. Personally I would like to see Atari sneak in some vrams into the system, And yes I know they cost 3-4 times the price of regular drams. Back a few messages someone asked what improvement the could expect from the FALCON over the ST with 16 megHertz processor. The answer is a lot. If you look at your QuickIndex results you are currently seeing a %20->%50 increase in throughput. Because the Falcon is a 16Mhz machine a minimum to %100 increase in throughput over the ST can be expected. You will actually get more because of the 32-bit wide data bus, and the fewer clock cycles required to access memory on a 68030. I would expect an increase of %125 over am 8Mhz ST. However if compatability is a concern I would recommend Jim Allens 20Mhz 68000 accellerator. I am assuming that the Instruction and data caches on the 68030 are turned off. What I want is a VME board that can do the Falcon resolutions for my TT, or someones MegaSTe. That would be the ideal video editing setup. The video adapter genlocked to your SMPTE deck would be amazing. Imagine the video equivalent to a patch editor for the Atari. Control the patch editor from you "console" monitor, and view the result on your VGA monitor, or TV. Brian ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 7 Thu Sep 10, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:29 EDT John, I did download the Calligapher DEMO but it failed to work properly!.. and WEW what a donload charge... could you add some online docs and make sure the download is GOOD.. other friend had similar problems.. YES if if Calligrapher GOLD had Word for Windows 2.0 import/export I WOULD LOVE IT... these modules are SO important if your going to use a new Word Processor! Sheldon... Stop being so logical... your killing our fun!... BUT I am afraid you are correct.. People DO judge a book by its cover... (Shame on them!) Just another model with the same inards in a petit little tower case with (2) slots...and an 386 chip included.. hmmm ATARI you sell a million... US ATARI folks are gonna buy one anyway.. you know the 500 of us left in America! but ATARI NEEDS to attract the common buyer off the street! ThunderBird... My heart of hearts is with you... It's my mind you can't convince! Mick, VGA=med rez true and hi rez 256 color TV/VIDEO?SC1224=Hi rez true color with flicker although you can't see the flicker on the TV/VIDEO IN mode If ya don't mind working with 320x480x65,536 the GET THE GOOD VGA! actually this might look BETTER than you can imagine! you can always just move the Falcon to the living room and connect it into the Video in of your TV/VIDEO device and you'll have EVERYTHING!! HISOFT... Is it REALLY as good as MicroSoft Word 2.0 only ten times faster?.. let us know!!! $400 is CHEAP if is really that powerfull and has a good Word import/export module!!! YEAH THERE IS A TEMPUS WORD Ohhhh, Wilson... LOW blow The way the Falcon is integrated athe Video the bandwidth become a problem... You see your $500 ATI Ultra can handle it just like an add-on processor port video card could on the Falcon.. Dave... Jim.. we are waiting.. Fifth Crudsade, Bingo ... you ARE right on the BUTTON.. of course thats until the new EISA Bus Mastering cards come out this year!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 8 Thu Sep 10, 1992 DOUG.W [ICD RT] at 23:52 EDT Thunderbird, I have a video card for the PC that does 640x480 in 24-bit true color. I paid $180 for it. It also does 800x600 with 32768 colors, as well as 1024x768 with 256 and 1280x960 and 1280x1024 with 16 colors. BTW, this is a graphics accelerator card and is 10-15 times faster than a standard SVGA card. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 9 Fri Sep 11, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 00:49 EDT Bob Wilson, YEAH... someone out there cares to tell the TRUTH!... You can't beat 'em till you know how really tough they are.. wishfull thinking brings only wishfull sales.. Thunderbird... hmmm if you don't like the test results... well then I agree it must be incorrect! The ATI is a compute engine all in its own... BUT just because it does almost EVERYTHING I use for product- tivity VERY fast then... your right it must be VERY slow... Yes onboard video.. at almost any PC dealer before we can EVER buy a Falcon in the US...TRUST ME i've used one!!! WITH 32,768 colors... BUT, IT will NOT do animations at Falcon Speed!! It cannot be used on a system that is really a "Sound Studio in a BOX" It will not do AUTO shading like the DSP can....DOS sucks...640K sucks...managing the UMB sucks (an OK bootstrap for Windows 3.1) The Falcon... The REAL machine for the Rest of US!! YEAH>>>YEAH Bill Rehbock SAYS.... The Falcon is FFC class "B" ready! and that Boston Computer society on Sept 23rd will be the BIG KICK OFF!... and that FSMGDOS was delayed because of the switch to Bitstream Fonts... MUCH FASTER more compatible and you can buy'em at EGGHEAD!!!... Could there be a Falcon in YOUR Christmas future? From Enthused to MAD to enthused... Jerry ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 10 Fri Sep 11, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:03 EDT DOUG!!, $180... NA.. ATI Ultra is $550 and it will not do 24bit color!! .. What is the name of this card... and your friend you bought it from? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 11 Fri Sep 11, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:35 EDT TOWNS - Sorry, John, but it takes these people FOREVER to make the transcripts available in the library and it wasn't available when I posted my question. Don't worry, I'm not flaming (this time) about the absence of a programming language. I agree that including a programming language with a computer isn't much use to most users. Doesn't all this comparison stuff belong in the "Atari Systems vs Other Systems" topic in category 18? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 12 Fri Sep 11, 1992 T.GIRSCH [T.J.] at 03:38 EDT DOUG.W - Was that a "street" price or a developer/distributor/vendor price? Computer Shopper falls into the above categories. Before you say "people can get stuff readily from computer shopper" let me remind you that the Falcon will probably available for less than MSRP as well... -TJ ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 13 Fri Sep 11, 1992 DOUG.W [ICD RT] at 07:39 EDT J.Richter, The card is the Diamond SpeedStar 24x. The $180 price is from CDW (Computer Discount Warehouse) in Chicago. I've seen it for less from other mail-order places. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 14 Fri Sep 11, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 10:24 EDT The "S3" controller chip on that board is quite flexible. I have a 32bit localbus version of the same, and it is a SCREAMER!! With it Windows in 256 color 1024x768 on that 32bit card, in a 486-33, is about as fast as a 40Mhz Tiny030 with a CrazyDots card...window opening/closing, resizing, scrolling, etc. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 15 Fri Sep 11, 1992 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 21:40 EDT 400$? Cheap? One word-processing program? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 16 Fri Sep 11, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:10 EDT J.Richter: If I posted a message saying that I wrote a benchmark on my 800XL in Atari BASIC, and ported it over to Windoze on a '486-33 and it ran 10-15 times faster on my 800XL, I suspect that _you_ would want to see the code for yourself. Or would you mock _yourself_ for doubting this positive proof of the superiority of 1979 Technology? Doug. W: I did a little comparison shopping and questioned a few of my DOShead friends. They recommended the Diamond Speedstar 24x which they say is $179 in Computer Shopper. I couldn't find it myself. But, initially I was impressed by the number of companies making inexpensive VGA cards ($150-$200) that could do 32768 and in some cases 65566 colors. Upon further consultation with the DOSheads, it was learned that these cards are practically useless without a specific driver for a specific program which may or may not exist, since so many card companies went their own way in design. This is an unfortunate situation for the PC user, as all Falcon030's will have a _known_ graphics system built-in. Furthermore, it was determined that VGA cards with Windows 3.1 accelerators could be had for not much less than $250, and the majority of these were only 256 colors with an "option" for more. These cards neglect to mention that they will have the truly nifty side effect of slowing down your text-based applications (which currently is about 90% of all PC programs total). The S3 chip in these cards differs in many ways from the BLiTTER. A lot of it's functions BLiTTER cannot even do. However, the ST's speed makes this point moot. There are things the BLiTTER can do, that are beyond the S3's wildest fantasy. For instance: the S3 couldn't copy a single byte of system RAM from one point to another, let alone copy a whole block of RAM. Real-world benchmarks put the "local bus" video cards at 15 times as fast as ISA and 5 times as fast as EISA, which basically confirms what I've said about the slowness of the typical PC's bus bottleneck. Just for kicks I priced the Sound Blaster Pro (which can't even dream of considering to lick the Falcon030's sound system's boots) and it came in for the measely sum of $219. So, I'm still waiting for J.Richter to find me a VGA card that can do the following: 1) 640x400x65536 2) Overscan 3) Has Graphics Coprocessor 4) Is local bus 5) 18 (or more) bit palette 6) Has R/F out 7) Is Genlockable 8) Has 14 megs of RAM to access 9) Has Hardware fine scrolling A) Can generate Horizontal Blanking Interrupts B) Can generate Vertical Blanking Interrupts C) Has "overlay" mode D) Allows use of a "Lightpen" E) Is compatable with all programs (no special drivers needed) F) Costs under $799 (price of a Falcon030). ______________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 18 Fri Sep 11, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:21 EDT Thunderbird.. I am waiting for a Falcon that will do VGA 65,537!! Ya buys a cheap couch for $99 bucks or a good one for $400.. same old story... If ya don't have the need or talents to use the good one.. don't hold the rest of us back! It's obvious you've never sat in a good one.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 19 Sat Sep 12, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 00:40 EDT $400 is cheap in the DOS world. I don't think that Atari users would tolerate prices like that. Oh there are multi-hundred dollar programs in the Atari world, but compare what the equivalent would cost in the DOS world. Interesting comparison - check the price of GFA Basic for the Atari vs. the same program for windows! Folks in the DOS world are used to paying large prices - or stealing the software. I hope we in the Atari world never drop to those levels. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 20 Sat Sep 12, 1992 DOUG.W [ICD RT] at 07:35 EDT Thunderbird, You should be able to find a SoundBlaster Pro for $150 or so. You can get the MediaVision AudioSpectrum 16 (16-bit 44.1KHz stereo) for $200. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 21 Sat Sep 12, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 07:54 EDT Who said that Falcon030 _needed_ to do VGA 65536??????? I didn't. It does RGB/COMPOSITE/OVERSCAN 65536!!! Plus _much_ more... Ya buys an ultra-expensive couch for $400 with "rich corinthian leather upholstery" and then criticize my $99 cheap couch because it only has American leather. Then, you refuse to even discuss the fact that _my_ couch has: A hideaway bed. reclines comes with throw pillows has "magic fingers" massage is scotchguarded has contemporary design is electrically heated and has a built-in CD player. BUT... It's _still_ not as good as yours because it doesn't have very good upholstery. So, enjoy your fancy expensive leather... just don't complain when you get back problems from the non-ergonomic design. ___________________________ \hunderbird P.S. Like I always say: "You can lead a man to knowlege but you cannot make him think." (tm) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 22 Sat Sep 12, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 07:59 EDT Last time I checked, the $1200 clones _didn't_ come with a sound blaste pro. Could this be another _hidden cost_??? Come to think of it, the SBPro doesn't actually _do_ DMA sound (how could it?) and I think they left off the DSP socket too. ;-) ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 23 Sat Sep 12, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 09:23 EDT To make the average $1000 clone into a viable games machine (which is what most people seem to use em for ). You would need to add the following on to the base cost: 1. Sound Card: $100-$250 dollars depending on your tastes. 2. Mouse (surpising not standard in many low cost clones) $25-$100 (best to get the higher end mice for the widest compatibility) 3. Game Card, read joystick ports,: $50 So count on adding $175-$400 dollars on to the price on any rock bottom clone depending on what you're willing to settle for in terms of quality. Best Regards, -Chuck- p.s.-Oh yes, any $1000 clone is too slow to play a state-of-the-art game like Ultima 7 or Wing Commander II, so add at leat $400 for a motherboard upgrade . ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 24 Sat Sep 12, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:10 EDT Chuck, You're assuming that a $1,000 clone is a slow PC. These days, with the price war going on, a $1,000 clone is likely to have a 33- or even 40-mHz CPU. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 25 Sat Sep 12, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 12:38 EDT AL, Where? The $1000 clones (talking about the one's including monitor) I see are are SX 16/20/25 mhz. I don't feel like running to my Sunday paper to directly quote ad's but don't push me. Besides, you still have $175-$400 in costs to upgrade that clone into a games machine... Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 26 Sat Sep 12, 1992 G.NORTON [G.NORTON] at 13:34 EDT Doug, I sell PC's and ST's for that matter and I have yet to see a program support the AudioSpectrum 16 (well maybe one or two games I haven't seen). Most PC products support Soundblaster and Adlib, both of which are 8 bit sound cards. I have heard the sound from the AudioSpectrum (with software that comes with it) and it is quite impressive. However since it has not yet become a standard (ie supported widely) the card is next to useless for most applications, aside from being an expensive Soundblaster compatible card. Graham @ Quay Computers ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 27 Sat Sep 12, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 13:59 EDT Mike, Word for Windows is $700 list... Egghead..$595 ... Corporate MicroSoft Suites are $499 which includes Word for Windows 2.0, Excel 4.0 and PowerPoint 3.0!! This new licensing scheme allows the user to use this suite on ANY system I own! Home, Laptop etc,etc.. so thats $166 a piece for $699 software and use on multiple systems.. MicroSoft has smartened up when it comes to the Corporate customer! Well, I hope the powerfull Europeans software companies realize whats going on in corporate America! cause they should have to sell their MOST powerfull ATARI programs for under $200 (street price) to be competitive with this new corporate price structure!! and these are EXTREMELY powerfull packages.. Just so everyone knows what ATARI is up against and why they NEED MicroSoft apps.. We should have a shoot out against Word for Windows 2.0 and THE most powerful ATARI word processor.. feature for feature.. Then the same shoot out against Excel 4.0 and the most Powerful ATARI shoot out.. unless some one can prove differently I would be willing to bet there is a 3 to 1 power/feature list difference between MS stuff and what ever is available on the ATARI.. HEY I thing the Falcon OS blows MS stuff out-a-the-water (Windows NT not included) but APPS is where its at and ATARI knows it! TEMPUS WORD WHERE ARE YOU?? can you prove me wrong.. I want you to!! HEY, with all the havoc Apple tried to reign over MicroSoft lately, wouldn't it be NICE for ATARI to be the favored Motorola Platform? Even if ATARI came up with the kick-off bucks for WORD5.0 (or better) wouldn't it be NEAT.. They are surely doing NOTHING for Steve Jobs (obvious reasons) I believe if MicroSoft came up with a Falcon Suite for ATARI the stock price would shoot up faster than for any other reason!! After all, Lotus came up with a marvelous spreed sheet for the NeXt OS with FEW machines to use it on... (Ya ota c NeXt Step on the '486!!!). ThunderBird.. I want desparately to see your $99 leather couch... hmmm sounds like plastic to me.. Who wants 65,536 colors at 640x480 on a VGA monitor? just about everyone I know that wants and needs only O N E monitor.. As for me I want the Falcon for what it does do... I don't need to make up fantasies about what it can't do... If you can't see your weaknesses what improvements are possible?.. The Falcon NEEDS higher resolutions.. they did a Wonderfull job on colors and sound.. Higher resolutions, separate keyboard, and a couple more dynamite software packages and there would be NO STOPPING THEM... ThunderBird .... I agree in ONE important area! All these fancy video cards on the PC are not suppoprted by most of the software packages! Sooo the tables are turned for ONCE.. If there is a Falcon TRUE COLOR Wing Commander II it will BLOW the socks off the PC version and it will be the same on every Falcon!! The clones are locked in at 640x480x256 and even this is RARE because of the speed of the average PC video board.. BUT you could watch 640x400x65,536 on any Falcon with CD sound on ANY quality Big Screen/Stereo System!! PICTURE the impact of what I am saying... hurry ATARI release the matching CD player SOON! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 28 Sat Sep 12, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 15:07 EDT J Richter.. Please see my previous message about FCC Certification. I will not say anything else on the subject. Sorry. Terry... I have no idea. I don't know anything abuot the Omnimon Rainbow. Dot.. I mean't that in the nicest possible way. Of course, we will treat him like a VIP. Wayne.. I am not sure. Besides you really shouldn't rely on the XBIOS Getrez() function for anything besides opening a workstation with GDOS. If I remember right, the function is maintained for compatibility. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 29 Sat Sep 12, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 15:32 EDT Mr. Towns, Bill Rehbock says and he sounds confident that the Falcon WAS FCC tested before MASS production started and ATARI is only waiting for the sticker! ... why is Bill so candid, relaxed, and confident and others sooooo secretive sounding.. I vote for Bill Rehbock.. sounds like the Falcon is a well thought out system!! and I can hardly wait for ATARI to release their HIGHER end system to us POWER freaks! The Standard Falcon is probably MORE than MOST people know what to do with. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 30 Sat Sep 12, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:32 EDT J.Richter: I'm truly sorry that you don't want or need more than one monitor... NOT! The widespread infiltration of the VGA standard has blown the bottom out of the VGA monitor market, while driving UP the price of high quality Analog RGB monitors (because everyone wants VGA, so there's little competetion for RGBA monitors). This unfortunate situation has forced Atari to adapt their excellent video system to output to a klunky monitor which cannot do overscan. If they had not made this concession, then we'd all be hearing you tout your $250 VGA monitor in comparison to our $400 "Atari Specific" monitor. So, to keep the monitor's cost down low enough for the penny pinching PC purchaser, they opted for a video output capable of driving more than one monitor type. Besides, you'd have to get a different video card _AND_ monitor if you wanted to do what the Falcon030 does, on a PC anyways... so what's the difference? You're saving the cost of the extra video card. Me? I've got a brand spanking new 27" Toshiba console TV just begging to be connected to 640x400x65536 Overscan... I bet I can design some pretty cool Icons for the desktop on this. Question for Atari: Does Falcon TOS allow the loading of different Desktop backgrounds? Like pictures and such? __________________________ /hunderbird P.S. Oh, yeah... Like I really believe that someone is going to believe that new liscensing scheme... it's not like anyone was actually going to _buy_ a copy of the program for each of their machines or anything... not at $700, $595, $499, $166, or _any_ price. Well, maybe a _few_ people are honest and would. Sadly, the majority of people don't even know they are committing a crime. They see it like they see recording a movie off of HBO and loaning the tape to their friend. Or renting a movie and copying it for their 'archive'. etc. etc. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 32 Sun Sep 13, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 00:48 EDT WHY is it that some people think that a new low end (entry level) machine from Atari is no good because it does not have the the very best graphics that are available to the IBM PC world? The Falcon030's price/performance ration is VERY respectable. If you wanna compare prices try this one: 16 bit/50 Khz stereo direct to disk digital recording: Falcon030 price: approx $2000 w/14mb Ram/200 meg HD/VGA PC price: approx $5000-$10000 Keep in mind that CD quality is 14 bit/44.1 Khz, And that Hard drive prices are now EXACTALLY the same for both machines. There are a LOT of uses that a base model Falcon030 will excell at and I'm sure that we will be seeing a whole new level of software development in the near future. ---------------------> Sam ALSO: Here are some remarks about Bill Rehbock's CI$ conference on tuesday, September 8, 1992... The Falcon has passed FCC Class B specifications and we are waiting only for paperwork certification..... ** [for those who missed it!!!] ** I asked Bill about access to the innnards of Falcon and he enlightened me with the following info... The shielding has been completely redesigned so that all that is needed is a Phillips screwdriver. The shielding is easily removed to allow addition of larger HDs, memory boards, or expansion boards. I also asked about changing resolutions on the fly... Software can make a new SET RESOLUTION call that will put the machine in the requested video mode. The AES will be unavailable in this mode, but the application will have full VDI support. Bill also stated that MultiTOS will ship with the first Falcon's. ---------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 33 Sun Sep 13, 1992 D.TANG2 [DES] at 01:35 EDT Um, what will be the warranty for the Falcon? Curious Des ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 34 Sun Sep 13, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:38 EDT There still seems to be an awful lot of discussion here which should probably be in the "Atari systems vs Other systems" topic in category 18. Ooooo! If I were ONLY a topic cop! I can still be a topic informant, though, can't I? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 35 Sun Sep 13, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:16 EDT 1) Microsoft will never port Word or Works to the Falcon for two reasons: Atari won't pay them to write it and Atari users won't pay them to use it. You have to pull most Atarians' teeth before they'd shell out $150 for a word processor, and at that it better be packed with more features than they'll ever use (why do you think that damned Word Writer is still around?). Word 5.0 would be nice, but it's unrealistic. What we _do_ need, and what _is_ realistic, are import/export modules for our high-end progs (Calligrapher and That's Write) that can import and export files in Word Perfect (all popular versions), Word (ditto), and all popular Atari formats. 2) Yes, it would be nice if the Falcon did 640x480x32,768. And 800x600x256. And 1024x768x256. And 1280x960x16. But it can't, at least not out of the box. But you will be able to buy a graphics card for it in the near future that will allow you to do all these modes and maybe more. And this card will hook right up to the Falcon's memory board port, just like Jim Allen said. And there will still be people complaining that it isn't enough. 3) There will never be a million people in the US who own Falcons. They will not be used by large corporations to keep track of payroll. GM will not use them to design automobiles. There is, however, a good chance that there will be many, many thousands of people who will use Falcons for things like balancing their checkbook and writing letters to distant relatives, as well as desktop publishing and direct to disk sampling. And some people will just play some pretty cool games on them. Let's go for some realism here, folks. Anyone who's got their hearts set on world domination can hop the next cruiseship to Atlantis. Keep your eyes straight ahead, and your expectations realistic, and we can all come out happy. Now somebody get me a Falcon... Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 36 Sun Sep 13, 1992 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 06:22 EDT John, The Omnimon Rainbow is a multisync monitor, that now gives me all three ST resolutions. It's the same as an Acer, I believe, if you're familiar with them. Thanks. - Terry - ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 37 Sun Sep 13, 1992 R.WILSON36 [Bob Wilson] at 08:44 EDT Soul Manager If there are never going to be 1 million americans with a Falcon then we had better hope that there are 4 or 5 million Germans with them. If they do not sell a million that basically means that the machine will die except in the specialised niche areas. The result of that is software that only supports the niche area which is bad for those who want to do more than the niche function. I would think that ATARI needs to sell 250,000 to 500,000 machines to the US market each year for the US market to get out of its current mess. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 38 Sun Sep 13, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:39 EDT SLP: I probably _am_ the local expert on the Falcon's TOS (except for Atari employees and developers with machines). Considering the fact that I know very little _concrete_ information about Falcon TOS, that would put everyone else pretty much in the dark too. Since you were unable to answer the question yourself, perhaps someone who does know will be able to answer it. For some reason people still try to compare the Falcon030 to "lowball" PC clones. Just because a clone has a fast CPU in it, by no means indicates any type of performance increase to the end user. I have seen far too many people buy these "bargains", only to find that they got less than they "bargained" for. How about: That "Super" VGA card in the system... oops, it needs more RAM to do more than plain-old VGA??? The 100 Meg Hard drive? How come Windoze 3.1 takes up so much room? That 386-33: What's all this stuff about SX and DX, and why did my friend say I've only got a 16 bit bus? That 486-25: what's all this stuff about 'wait-states' and my RAM being too slow that everyone keeps telling me? How come I don't hear the same music when I play Wing Commander that I heard in the store? All I get is "blip-blip-boink-boink"!!! Speaking of Wing Commander: How come my screen jerks and wavers during the animations which looked so good in the store? One and on ad infinitum... There are plenty of other ways that these lowball clone houses can rip-off the unsuspecting purchaser with a fancy (read misleading) spec or two. In summary: you're going to have to pay a competative price for a clone to get one of comparable performance to a Falcon030.... (Ignoring, of course, the capabilities of the Falcon030 which the PC clone cannot do without spending thousands of dollars). Realistically, the market for ultra-expensive ($150+) 'productivity' programs like word-processors and spreadsheets, etc. is very narrow. I would be willing to bet that a program like "Wing Commander" has more than twice as many man-hours of labor in development and testing, yet sells for 1/10th the cost of Word for Windoze. Why is this??? Simple: 20 times fewer people want productivity programs as those that want entertainment programs so the price is artificially inflated to maintain a high level of profit. To sum up the whole comparison issue: The Falcon030 is to the Clone what Wing Commander is to Word for Windoze. They appeal to different people. Period. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 39 Sun Sep 13, 1992 M.HILL13 [Mike] at 12:11 EDT John Townsend or Bill Rehbok, I don't know if this question has already been asked, but anyway... Does the Falcon and its new TOS actually monitor the HD and wait for it to power up, or do we still have the built in time out like TOS 2.06 & 3.06? And hey while im at it. Does the new TOS do anything new or different at powerup? (Full color animated FUJI? , Dancing Girls? , ETC). Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 40 Sun Sep 13, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 12:22 EDT Soul Manager, All your points are good ones! ... but when ATARI finally DOES release their HIGHER end Falcons they are going to have to have as much high-end Word Processors and Spreadsheets as they can get!! Please don't force your perceived needs on ALL of us! You can do some marevelous things with come of these HIGH-END products.. With jobs on the decline their are QUITE A FEW people using $400 productivity programs on $900 PC's.... Unfortunatly, most of the ATARIANS have been outa this loop for so long... But hey, A computer system means different thing to a lot of different people.. let us not bury our heads in the sand.. not now that ATARI has produced a piece of hardware that can RUN CIRCLES around the AVERAGE clone!! LET THERE BE THE BEST HIGH_END AND THE BEST LOW END SOFTWARE FOR THE FALCON..... I am PROUD of what ATARI has done here.. they could have gone for a lesser design.. skipped the DSP.. Skipped the 16bit A/D.. skipped the "TRUE COLOR" mode to video, and skipped the expansion sockets! and we all would of still thought it to nice little 030 home system!.. I agree.. If Calligrapher could add Word for Windows and Word Perfect export/import modules it would make Falcon F A R more acceptable to the average Joe off the street.. PS.. There is a $950 DSP card available to the PC market!! Advice to ATARI: Can the (1)meg model and release the (4)meg with NO hard drive for $899 list.. (16)meg with NO hard drive for $1399!! IT'S A WINNER... IT'S A TOUGH MARKET! Reason: We can get out OWN HD latter cheaper or use some of those HUGH 650meg HD's for Digital Recording and Video productions. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 41 Sun Sep 13, 1992 J.P.C. at 12:54 EDT To all of you who think that high-end applications are not the leading software products, all you have to do is check with the Software Pub- lishers Association. Doing that will show you that the vast majority of consumers are buying mid-to-high level applications, many more times over than games. So, albeit the F030 has many more advanced technical features than the run-of- the-mill clone, it does meet the requirements of the marketplace. Not at $799 WITHOUT A HARD-DRIVE! Moreover, Apple is introducing the Proforma line, tomorrow. Just what do you all think the average consumer will be buying for XMAS? F030's or Apple's? Sorry folks, ATARI has created another great NICHE machine, for an ever decreasing NICHE market. Its own user-base. Back in 1986-1988, ATARI had their chance, with the MEGA ST, to really advance themselves in the general marketplace. They blew it. And, I'm TIRED, TIRED, TIRED of hearing that ATARI is a small company. Lest us not forget that Apple started out in a garage, AFTER ATARI was already a large company. Apple had a vision. ATARI, under the Tramiels has not. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 42 Sun Sep 13, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 13:22 EDT Yeah, I'd like to scond the suggestion of canning the 1M version, go with the 4M as a minimum and allow the dealer/end-user choose/instal what HD they want in there. Stay out of the HD business! Just make sure the internal connections/options are there. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 43 Sun Sep 13, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 13:39 EDT The Desktop in TOS 4.0 doesn't support loading background pictures or fill patterns. There just wasn't enough time. However, we are aware that people want this and I think it will probably work its way into the MultiTOS desktop. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 44 Sun Sep 13, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 14:10 EDT I have seen this question but I have never seen an answer. Is there a monitor that will display ALL of the Falcon resolutions? Just one monitor PLEASE. It gets old having 2 monitors all the time. Every machine Atari has built has required 2 monitors until the Multisyncs came out. Is there a multisync that will handle the Falcon? Will the Falcon recognize it and allow all resolution selection? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 45 Sun Sep 13, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 16:01 EDT TODD: (It's RoD) I can't look up the references in MacWorld. I had the subscription at my previous job and therefore left the mag's there. All I remember is seeing several references to the low-quality ADB connectors, both in letters from readers and in a couple articles scattered throughout three years of MacWorld. Here's how Atari can rip into the IBM stranglehold here in the US. Put the Falcon in a tower case. Add a cheap 386 emulation board. Write the bootup software so that it boots up as a clone. Now, sell the Falcon AS a clone at a great price...people will eat it up and buy them by the truckloads, never suspecting they really own a GEM machine. Here's the clever part. Write into the bootup code a switchover subroutine to execute on a certain date. When the Falcon is booted up on that date, the 386 is replaced by the Atari Falcon! If you make that date a Friday night, users will have an entire weekend waiting for a repairman to discover the wonderful world of GEM! They'd never turn back! ;-) Live And Direct [12:17 AM-11/Sep/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 46 Sun Sep 13, 1992 J.JENKINS19 [Jarius] at 16:04 EDT Wayne, I went to a local comp. dealer and on his desk was a monitor that had VGA, composite, and another connector in the back. It also had a switch that allowed the switching between analog and the other video modes. It could be used for all the modes since it had comp. and VGA, but it was from 1987. I asked the guy about it and he said that he would look for that kind of monitor for me (preferably one more recent.) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 47 Sun Sep 13, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 17:48 EDT Thunderbird, As long as the Falcon stays with the 525 line, 30 frame standard (standard US TV) you might consider the Maganavox 1CM135 monitor which can also display composite video and the old CGA standard. I have heard that it can also display Chroma + Luminence (old 800 and also SVHS) and has stereo speakers. I have seen these for about $240 in Computer Shopper and Commodore mags. I believe Toad sells them with a cable for STs. The dot pitch might be a little gross - I don't remember. Won't handle normal ST mono, of course. I am using an earlier Magnavox on my MSTe and am very happy with it. I have also used it with my 800, a Sinclair QL, a Commodore 64, a Sinclair 2068 and with the direct video/audio outputs from a VCR with good results. Actually, the IBM craze set bundled software (as well as computer technology) back 10 years. When the IBM hit the market, most CP/M machines were already coming bundled with MicroSoft Basic, WordStar, DBase and SuperCalc or their equivalents. Bundling (sp?) went away for many years in the DOS market. I wonder why? Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 48 Sun Sep 13, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 19:02 EDT The warranty on Falcon030 machines is one year. The hard drive delay is still there.. However, we did make the time delay for the spin-up a Non-Volatile RAM configuration. And TOS doesn't do anything different at startup. sorry ;-) -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 49 Sun Sep 13, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 20:32 EDT Towns: Thanks for the answer about the background pictures. I know what you mean "There just wasn't enough time." I look forward to seeing this feature in MultiTOS. With 16 bit color, I look forward to some really cool Desktop configurations. Here's a simple question: There was some specs given online here that said that the internal speaker could only play "one" channel of sound at a time. Is the audio output for the monitor the same way? There is no restriction on the number of channels that can be played on the "Stereo" jack, right? More on sound: Is the old Yamaha sound chip retained for compatability? How does it fit into the sound scheme of the Falcon? Thanks 1.0*10E6 Mike Allen: I'm looking forward to hooking the Falcon030 up to my 27" Toshiba TV. This thing has a dot pitch better than the SC1224! It has built in Stereo speakers with Carver(R) Sonic Holography (tm) and a massive Subwoofer. I play my "Terminator 2" Laserdisk on it all the time, and it looks and sounds awesome. Just wait until I hook up some Falcon030 demos to it and invite the DOSheads over for a sixpack. Suggestion to Atari: Make sure that the European "demo" factories (like TEX and The Lost Boys) get Falcon030's ASAP. In exchange, they could write some super-awesome demo's that can be used as Sales tools, and ship with every Falcon030. ____________________ \hunderbird P.S. Someone find out who wins the Falcon030 at Glendale... maybe we can get this individual a "screenshot" utility. ;-) P.P.S. Did Jerry Pournelle get his Falcon030 this weekend? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 50 Sun Sep 13, 1992 C.TOWNSLEY [CHARLIE] at 20:54 EDT Wayne, I've read your questions about a monitor that can display all the Falcon Resolutions but I've hesitated to answer them because I don't really understand what you're asking. John Townsend posted a message a while back detailing the resolutions available on the Falcon. As it states they are: On a TV or RGB monitor; 4, 16, 256, and True colour in 320 x 200 screen size, 40 columns a n d in 320 x 400 interlaced, 40 columns 2,4,16,256, and True Colour in 640 x 200 screen size, 80 columns 4, 16, 256, and True Colour in 640 x 400 interlaced, 80 columns On a VGA monitor you would get: 4, 16, 256, and True Colour in 320 x 240 Line-Doubling, 40 columns a n d in 320 x 480 screen size, 40 columns 4, 16, or 256 Colour in 640 x 240 line-doubling, 80 columns 2, 4, 16, 256 Colour in 640 x 480 normal, 80 columns So it appears that the RGB monitor will display more colours. The only difference is between, for example, the RGB's 320 x 200 and the VGAs 320 x 240 interlaced modes. No difference in colours, just a very minor increase in the size of the screen. It would seem to me to be in the realm of a personal choice; which monitor would suit YOU best. That can only be answered if YOU go and inspect each option and decide for yourself. The good thing is that the Falcon will work with your current RGB monitor. Later, if you buy a Falcon as I will, you can take it into any computer dealer and ask to hook it up to a VGA monitor in the store. If the dealer smells a sale potential he/she will most likely agree to let you test it out. Heck, he/she might even be as interested as you are. Then you will be able to decide which suits you best. I'm sure that many Atari dealers will be stocking VGA monitors in the future so you can check it out before you buy a Falcon if you want to wait. Really, untill the machine ships we're all going to have to wait to see what app's look best on which monitor. The standard here is changing, and it's uncertain where it will settle because it does depend so much on personal taste. Whatever sells best will win, as usuall. Charlie/Sysop Jr. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 51 Sun Sep 13, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 21:34 EDT Soul Manager, Word for Windows probably will never be ported to ANYTHING but Windows. Word accounts for a lot of Windows sales for Microsoft. JPC, I don't think serious people buy computers (especially not brand-new models) for Christmas. I may be wrong, but buying something that individual and that expensive for someone else doesn't make much sense. People don't buy each other cars for Christmas, do they? Certainly not the "average consumer". >Apple had a vision... Apple had a growth market. Apple had a usable computer at the very time the idea of a home computer was becoming a reality. Apple was a pioneer, and they were in the right place at the right time. Atari has none of these thing going for it. Computers are now a highly competitive, well developed market. Things have changed, and Atari is just a small company. Thunderbird, Rumor has it, the demo people already have them (Falcons). Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 52 Sun Sep 13, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 21:49 EDT JOHN: Please enlighten me...am I to understand that TOS 4.0 is the TOS being released with the Falcons before MultiTOS is ready? I was thinking that 4.0 WAS MultiTOS. Live And Direct [5:33 PM-13/Sep/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 54 Sun Sep 13, 1992 B.AEIN [B Man] at 22:20 EDT So will the F030 do 640x400 65,000 out of the box? Thats = to 1 color for every 4 pixel Will there be a way to have SVHS out, out of the box? Does TOS 4 allow biger filenames??? Whats with the GEnie service agreement? Bman ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 55 Sun Sep 13, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 22:35 EDT Wayne, I see no reason a monitor like the NEC 3D could not be used to display all the ST+Falcon video modes. Sounds like a special adaptor/cable with a switch would be needed, but it should be possible. Thunderbird, The Yamaha sound chip is in the Falcon to matain downward compatibility with the ST. -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 56 Sun Sep 13, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 23:13 EDT Atari, I'm confused. Is the final released version of the Falcon going to have a 1040 case or something else? The reason I ask is because of a post from Jerry Pournelle... Jerry Pournelle RT Category 4, Topic 15 Message 441 Sun Sep 13, 1992 JERRYP [Chaos Master] at 16:49 EDT The Falcon is an impressive machine. I will get one in November, when they make them in a new form factor; the ones they are shipping now look like the old Ataris. Atari and I have agreed that I will wait for the Falcon and some software updates to do a survey like the one I did for Amiga. So far I liked what I saw. ....[the rest of the post didn't pertain to the Falcon].... ...by his reference to "new form factor; the ones they are shipping now look like the old Ataris", it seems to me that he's waiting for a Falcon with a detachable keyboard - or at least a whole different "form factor" than the current one. Is the 'Novemeber' Falcon the same as we're waiting for, or is it the rumored 'Mega Falcon' with detachable keyboard? Or what? Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 57 Sun Sep 13, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 23:54 EDT Jerry Pournelle likes the Falcon!!!!!! See J.Pournelle's RT, p.245, cat. 4, topic 15, message #441. Best Regards, -Chuck- p.s. Anyone know what the hard-drive speed is in the 4mb/65mb HD combination of the 030?? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 58 Mon Sep 14, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 00:49 EDT I saw the Falcon demo at the Glendale show on Saturday. Wow!!!!! I could hardly sleep last night just imagining all the incredible things I'll be able to do with the sound capabilities of the DSP. Silly things like assigning my choice of samples to any key of the keyboard and to desktop events like windows opening and closing and alert boxes, ala Mac Soundmaster only faster and better! (I could give the Falcon a real sexy personality by choosing Mae West or Marilyn Monroe samples!) And then of course the musical possiblities are mind boggling. I just hope the price of the software that combines midi with DSP sampling is affordable. I'm already apprehensive about the cost of a sufficiently large hard drive to handle those Direct-to-Disk recordings. 11 megs of hard drive space per minute of recording!(according to Rehbock) Looks like Sysquest removables may be the only way to go. Or maybe there will be some way to interface with a Hi-Fi VCR for us amateurs who need a low-cost storage alternative? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 59 Mon Sep 14, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:56 EDT Wayne.. All resolutions.. YES.. just not the HIGHEST rez with 65K colors!! its 320x640x65K for TRUE color! ... BUT really true color is better suited for a TV/RGB/VIDEO IN anyway!! I mean 640x480x256 is just GREAT for productivity and games... FAR better than OLD ATARI and even the standard TT030.... Towns: Can you run and RGB/VIDEO output Simultaneously with a VGA monitor? This would be of great advantage.. if you wanted a quick HIGH from a "True Color" game... Then flip back to PageStream... I sure hope PageStream comes out with a REAL color version for the Falcon!!! David, MicroVision is having a big sale on th MV650 meg SCSI HD's complete with a "very good looking" ATARI matching case with external SCSI address switching.. Send me EMAIL for more information.. Jerry Richter ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 60 Mon Sep 14, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 02:08 EDT Well, I hope that Jerry knows something that we don't, because you can bet that I (and I assume others) would pay at least $100 more for a detached keyboard case. I've had this MSTE for under a year, and I know that I would have trouble going back to the one piece design. Heck, I've got the keyboard in my lap right now! I have this little fear that I'll grab up one of the first Falcons, and six months to a year later, a new one with the detached keyboard will come out. Me thinks that this is all just a rumor or misunderstanding, but I hope I'm wrong! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 61 Mon Sep 14, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 02:26 EDT J. Richter, The Calligrapher demo file in the library _is_ "good". It does work and we've had no reports of problems from people who have followed the directions in the README.1ST file. If you followed these instructions and still had problems, I suggest that you try it on a clean system (although there are no known conflicting resident programs other than those mentioned in the docs). If you're really interested in getting the demo running, talk to us about it in our own topic. Thank you. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 62 Mon Sep 14, 1992 A.PAGE3 [Alan Page] at 02:44 EDT I had problems displaying interlaced RGB video on an NEC 3D. This was both from an RGB video camera and a Targa+ 24-bit capture card. NEC technical support said the microprocessor inside choked at interlaced video at that low a rate. One 3D worked, but was really flaky. I would not take it for granted that if it works at 640 x 480 non- interlaced that it is going to work interlaced. Try before you buy. Of course, if you never intend to use the interlaced modes, no problem. - Alan ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 63 Mon Sep 14, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:41 EDT D.ENGEL - Jerry Pournelle said he'd be getting a Falcon030 in November, when the new case design machines are released. Any comment from Bob, Bill or John on the "new case design"??? R.MARTIN22 - Yes, TOS 4.0 is 'Falcon TOS.' However, it's not there until MultiTOS is ready because MultiTOS runs in conjunction with TOS 4.0. B.AEIN - Yes, the F030 will to 640x400x65,536 out-of-the-box. However, keep in mind that's interlaced. The F030 doesn't come with an SVHS output, but I'm sure someone could come up with an adaptor for it. No, TOS 4.0 still has the ancient 8.3 CP/M filename format. Nobody knows a damn thing about the GE (not GEnie, unless there's something else I don't know) service agreement. FAIRWEATHER - Actually, 50kHz sampling takes up 5.72MB/min./track, so if you want the ability to handle 5 minutes of sampling with 8 tracks, then you'd need a 230MB hard drive (57.2MB for 5 minutes w/ 2 tracks). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 64 Mon Sep 14, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:00 EDT Okay, after consulting with a clone friend about monitors, here are the answers I got (since no one seems to be giving definite responses to questions posed here): A multisync monitor should be able to display all of the Falcon's video modes (VGA and RGB), as long as the monitor is capable of hitting the frequencies. His multisync sells in the $300 range (sorry, don't remember the brand) and that should do the trick. The monitor had better have adjustable horizontal and vertical sizing, though, or else you'd get some pretty odd screen shapes. I could be wrong about this, though, so don't get too excited. But he's usually right about these things (despite the fact that he's a clone). But my question to Towns or Bob is this: how do you select video modes on the Falcon? It was alluded to in one of Towns' messages that the resolutions were not given names, so there must be some novel approach. For the multisync to work, the method of choosing resolutions must be able to access both the VGA and RGB modes. Hopefully the Falcon doesn't make a determination about what type of monitor you have and then limit your options. I didn't ask whether the overscan would be programmable on the multisync, but I would hope so. I am looking forward to having a larger screen for desktop publishing and word processing... Towns... Think you could include an accessory for setting overscan? Please? Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 65 Mon Sep 14, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:30 EDT Chuck, I hope the topic police will keep us from turning this topic, which should be devoted to the Falcon030, into a where-are-the-cheap-PCs topic, but perhaps the real point is that Atari's pricing on the Falcon is going to have to be extremely competitive with what the rest of the market is charging. As many others have been pointing out, the personal computer market is now in a state of severe price erosion, one that won't end soon, and by coincidence Atari is introducing the Falcon at a tough time. With that said, here are some numbers, all based on ads in the current PC Sources magazine: 386SX-25, 2MB RAM, 42MB hard drive, SVGA monitor: $899. 386DX-33, 4MB RAM, 105MB HD, no monitor: $1,299. 386SX-16, 1MB RAM, 42MB HD, mono monitor: $575. 386SX-25, same as above: $585 386DX-40, 1MB RAM, 85MB HD, SVGA monitor, $987. 386-50 DX2 (speed-doubled chip), 4MB RAM, 105MB HD, SVGA monitor: $1,620. A very attractive buy: 386DX-40, 64kbit RAM cache, 4MB RAM, 170MB HD, 2 floppies, 1024X768 SVGA monitor, 1MB SVGA card w/32,768 colors, game port, DOS 5.0, Windows 3.1, mouse, 6 free expansion slots: $1,499. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 66 Mon Sep 14, 1992 HISOFT at 13:51 EDT J.RICHTER, Tempus Word is quick and it does a lot but its not got all the features of something like Word for Windows 2. For example it doesn't use outline fonts and as a result you have to do large heading in another progam and import them. Dave Nutkins, HiSoft. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 67 Mon Sep 14, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 18:05 EDT Jerry.. No, I don't think you can do that. Soul Manager.. You select video resolutions by selecting from several popup menus in the Set Video Mode.. Dialog Box. The Popups consist of the number of colors (2,4,16,256,True Color), the number of columns (40 or 80), and the third popup depends on the monitor being used. On a VGA Monitor, is says Line Doubling (On/Off) and on a TV or RGB monitor is says Interlace (On/Off). See, there was a method to my madness when I wrote the resolution chart. The way I describe a resolution (i.e. 256 color, 80 column, Interlace off, RGB Monitor) is the way it is selected from the desktop. Make sense? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 68 Mon Sep 14, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 18:48 EDT Al, I stand corrected, most of the PC prices I see in my area are in the $1000 range for an SX machine. That 386/40mhz system you posted was an eye opener for me. nuff said, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 69 Mon Sep 14, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 22:05 EDT Ben White - I think people DO buy big dollar items for Xmas. People often say things like: "I would really like a Falcon030 14/65 for Christmas, [Honey, Dad, Boss]." Rod Martin - TOS is TOS. TOS 4.0 just happens to have the AES "hooks" to allow you to load and use the special Atari version of MiNT, as an AUTO program. What the beta testers are currently using is the special MiNT package, plus a disk-loaded AES, replacing the AES on their TOS chips - whatever version of TOS they have. There has been some talk of providing the same disk-loaded version with early Falcons. I suppose it depends upon whether the new AES is debugged in time to get burned into the TOS 4.0 roms. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 70 Mon Sep 14, 1992 R.SCHILLING [Rob] at 22:12 EDT Hi All, Just got back from the Glendale show and the sighting of a real live FALCON 030! Looked just like a 1040 STE except that the Atari logo was rainbow colored and the nametag read "ATARI Falcon 030." Bill Rehbock was demoing some amazing desktop video applications "Atari's answer to Quicktime". He had a 75 meg video file that was simply awesome. Also the Falcon was playing some great sound samples. Bill showed off a graphic equalizer CPX to adjust the sound. Also he had a microphone hooked up to the computer to show the DSP capabilities (echo, distortion, flanging etc...) All of this was running on an old SC1224 monitor. The desktop I saw was 640x400 (?) running in 256 color interlace mode. The flicker was not too bad and did not affect the whole screen, just the windows, not their contents. The desktop displayed looked just like a regular STE, nothing fancy, but this might have been a pre-production version. Bill Rehbock said that this was the final version of the machine. He also claimed that there would be two Falcons at every dealer by the end of October or thereabouts. This show was fantastic and the Falcon sighting was worth the price of admission alone. Thanks John King Tarpinian and Atari Corp. Rob P.S. All above information is based on my memory of events witnessed at the show on Saturday, accuracy is not guaranteed. (Disclaimer :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 71 Mon Sep 14, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:55 EDT I was one up'd by Bill Reboch, who pointed out you CAN have two floppy drives with the Falcon, simply by using two of the TEAC 3/4" high units. Gee, why didn't I think of that. So much for that issue! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 72 Tue Sep 15, 1992 T.GIRSCH [T.J.] at 00:10 EDT Hmmm... I have an Acer MultiSync VGA Monitor, and it does overscan... Why couldn't it do that with a Falcon? -TJ Bman - I hope it doesn't allow for bigger filenames. PC disk format compatability can be a big selling point. And it allows me to take my PostScript files to work and print them directly. -TJ ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 73 Tue Sep 15, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 00:12 EDT Jim, how difficult will it be to install these 'mini-drives' into the Falcon? As a side-thought, this implies that the logic & lines are avaiable within the Falcon so you can have a dual floppy system (almost a must for our non-HD compatible games) if you decide to install the Falcon motherboard into an IBM case. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 74 Tue Sep 15, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:01 EDT Al, I have tried some of these CHEAP clones... and well.. you do get what you pay for!! Keyboard munchy... cheap..cheap Mice... SVGA card so slooowww it looked like an SX system! Remember these systems are the slow 8mhz ISA bus systems.. EISA will be another $1000 on the average! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 75 Tue Sep 15, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:27 EDT T.GIRSCH - I think the 'problem' is that the Falcon030 uses adaptors that tell the machine whether a VGA monitor or a ST RGB/mono (or TV) is hooked up to it, so it's a matter of being able to hook up a multisync/multiscan monitor (that's technically able to handle all the Falcon030's video modes) to both the VGA and ST RGB/mono adaptors. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 76 Tue Sep 15, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:35 EDT Unless there's some misunderstanding, Jerry Pournelle will be getting a tower case Falcon in November for review. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 77 Tue Sep 15, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 02:02 EDT J.P.C.-------> Let us revel in our day. If you do not want to hear how small a company Atari is then I encourage you to frequent some other RT. -------------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 78 Tue Sep 15, 1992 S.NOAH [Stu] at 02:04 EDT Here is another unsolicited marketing suggestion... Package a version of the Falcon in an anodized black aluminum case, like a piece of stereo equipment, and sell it as an Audio/Video component. With the correct software it would be great for this type of use, and since people don't traditionally tie in the idea of Stereo/Video with computers you don't have to overcome the stigma of not being big blue. Some copy like "The Stereo.. Video ... Telephone... 'BOX' ... by atari" might work. Considering the Falcon's audio and video strengths some one might consider trying to woo some of the Amiga developers to the system. I just saw some of the video software available for that system for the first time this weekend and it was really eye opening. Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 79 Tue Sep 15, 1992 POTECHIN [ Nathan] at 11:25 EDT Steve: > Unless there's some misunderstanding, Jerry Pournelle will be getting a > tower case Falcon in November for review. Amazing hypothesis. On what do you base it? My curiosity is aroused. :-) Nathan @ DMC Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 80 Tue Sep 15, 1992 J.JENKINS19 [Jarius] at 17:02 EDT Nathan, J.P stated that Atari has two Falcons in different 'form factors' the first is the 'slanted function keys' case and the second is the tower case. (this was said in his rt. Jerry;set 4;rea 15) Since he said that he would be waiting for the falcon of the other form factor (tower) then that is what he is expecting... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 81 Tue Sep 15, 1992 POTECHIN [ Nathan] at 19:29 EDT Hmmm, all I can say is I hope that if such a beast is scheduled to exist, I anticipate receiving one prior to JP so that, at the least, Calamus SL is totally compatible with it!! After all, he needs something to do with it once he gets it. :-) Nathan @ DMC Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 82 Tue Sep 15, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 19:47 EDT Nathan: According to the post by Jerry P., the innards of the machines are identical...just different cases.... There we go...clear as mud... :) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 83 Tue Sep 15, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 19:49 EDT Jim Ness, >I think people DO buy big dollar items for Xmas. Wow, a Packard Bell 386sx/16! Just what I always wanted. I guess I can throw away that old deck of cards now. I got you a brand new 1992 Yugo. It's almost as good as that AMC Pacer I bought for you back in '80. [Joke] >People often say things like: "I would really like..." Yeah, I guess if you're going to ASK for something for Christmas, then something like a computer makes sense. I was assuming it was going to be a surprise, and as such, a computer is a poor choice for a present because everyone likes different types, brands, configurations, etc. Anyone (most likely someone at Atari), Anyone want to expand on "Atari's answer to Quicktime"? Is it a program, or a new operating system service, or a new set of guidelines for desktop video (i.e. standard formats with accompanying librarys), or what? I hope it really IS an answer to Quicktime. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 84 Tue Sep 15, 1992 G.MON2 at 20:27 EDT I just read an article on comp.sys.atari.st that stated that the Falcon's processor direct slot only supplies 24 address lines and 16 data lines. Is this true? That means we won't be able to add "TT-style" RAM through it. In addition, can someone clarify what Bill Rehbock meant when he said that the CPU sees the COMBEL chip as a 16-bit bus? I almost fainted when I saw that. I thought it meant the Falcon had a 16-bit bus like the Mac LC II. Luckily, Jim Allen specifically asked whether the CPU sees memory as 32-bits and Bill Rehbock confirmed that it does. But I'm still confused. Thanks! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 85 Tue Sep 15, 1992 C.TOWNSLEY [CHARLIE] at 20:48 EDT Jarius, In last nights con Bob Brodie mentioned Jerry's comment about disliking the ST case and it's slanted function Key's. Bob said that his responce was to point out that many people and even many dealers transfer the guts of their Atari's into Tower cases and that undoubtedly someonce would be doing that with the Falcon sooner or later. Perhaps this is the situation Jerry P is in. Of course I hope you're right... BTW, just as an interesting project worth noting, one of the employee's at my local dealer told me he, as soon as he can buy a Falcon for himself, plans to put it into the same Tower Case his STE is already in so he can switch between them. He already has a switch set so he can toggle between TOS 1.62 and 2.06 so this would give him two machines and three TOS versions in one box. As well as his CD-Rom, syquest 44, Quantum 105.... (This guy's a little on the obsesive side. :-) ) Charlie ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 86 Tue Sep 15, 1992 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 22:21 EDT Stu, Quite a few Amiga developers took the time to come to Glendale to take a look at the Falcon and to talk to Bill Rehbock. This was an unexpected suprise for us at Glendale. The developer that comes to mind was the man who was brought to me looking for Bill. I took him to Bill, about 45 minutes later this developer came back to thank me for taking the time introduce him to Bill. He was excited to start development on the Falcon. This gentleman, I have forgotten his name, developed the speech systhisis for the Amiga. (I think that is the correct phrase.) Sounds positive, doesn't it. John King Tarpinian Faire Chairperson The Glendale Show ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 87 Tue Sep 15, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:32 EDT Working in an electronics manufacturing industry, I would hazard a guess that a case could easily be designed, which had all of the Falcon030's ports in their standard locations on the back, and use the same mounting hardware locations as the Falcon030. Since the Falcon030's metal shielded motherboard has passed FCC, I suppose you could put it in a cardboard box and have no problems. So, it would be practically no trouble for Atari to make some sort of separate keyboard/cpu that accepted the stock motherboard and maybe used a MegaSTe keyboard. Except for the cost of the tooling, that is. These things can take 3 days, 3 weeks, or 3 months to fabricate... depending on how much $$$ you have at your disposal. I hope these rumors are true. I really wasn't looking forward to having to 'explain' to everyone I 'evangelize' the reason the computer looks like a C=64. Come to think of it what _was_ that reason Atari said would be clear and pleasing to everyone why it was in the 1040 case??? _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 88 Tue Sep 15, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 22:53 EDT If Atari _DOES_ release a 'Tower' version of the Falcon it will be a major advantage for them. Most current PC buyers just don't like 'all in one' designs, ignoring the power of the system in question and just going on "does it look like a real computer?". Sad to say I too have this same reaction now and then. If there is a Tower in the works then I hope and pray that Atari includes the ability to install, hook up, and use, standard drives and such. It would be more than large enough to hold a standard CDROM, Tape Backup (PC type), hard drive, and what-have-you. The only question is will the connections be included (or made available for dealer upgrades). Finally... I understand that the 1040-style Falcon does NOT offer a 'built in' VME bus. Instead it has the SX emulator sockets and, from what I read here, expansion capability through the RAM upgrade socket/slot. PLEASE.... make it possible to add VME slots to the Tower model. A mini- Tower Falcon WITH expansion capability should prove very popular with all us self-styled 'power users' already committed to Atari AND should steal a number of DOS/MAC/Amiga types. I'm starting to stack my pennies again, a Tower Falcon would be beyond my ability to resist . Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 89 Tue Sep 15, 1992 J.P.C. at 23:48 EDT Ben White: IF the Xmas buying season IS NOT important to sales of big ticket items, then perhaps you could offer me a REASONABLE reason why virtually ALL manufacturers of consumer products (small ticket & big ticket) target the Xmas buying season so heavily. Except our favorite computer company, of course. I might add here that in today's Washington Post, there was an article in the Business Section announcing the introduction of Apple's 'Proforma'. On the back page of the front section of the paper was a full-page ad by Staples. $1,799 for a 4Mbyte RAM/80Mbyte HD/1.44Mbyte floppy/256 colors/ keyboard & mouse/14" color monitor AND, 10 pre-formatted discs, AND a mmousepad, AND a surge-protector, AND a diskette storage-box, AND Symantic 'Greatworks', AND MYOB (Business management package), AND System 7, AND a clip- art library, PLUS a one-year warranty with FREE IN-HOME SERVICE! Nuff said? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 90 Tue Sep 15, 1992 R.WOODBRIDG1 [Rob] at 23:51 EDT I would have to agree that software such as Microsoft Word 2.0 for Windows has gained serious improvements (from their Word for the Mac experience at least in part) over most other word processors. I can't claim to be a Calligrapher expert as I've only worked with the demo here on GEnie, but Word has the edge in my book in several ways, Tables being the first example to mind. I will say Calligrapher is quite a milestone for the ST. Yes Word takes forever to load, as does Windows, but once it's loaded, it's truly LOADED with capability. Not perfect mind you, but quite good. Having such powerful software for the Falcon would be important and wonderful. Just my two cents' worth. Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 91 Wed Sep 16, 1992 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 01:13 EDT Rob, Not to put down Microsoft Word (which is in many ways an excellent program), but Calligrapher's table capabilities are far superior to Word's, and *much* easier to use. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech Tuesday, September 15, 1992 10:00 pm ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 92 Wed Sep 16, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:39 EDT POTECHIN - I based it on what Jerry Pournelle said himself in the TT030 topic in the Jerry Pournelle RT. That's why I said "Unless there's some misunderstanding" because I figured Jerry may have misheard something. Jerry said (I'm paraphrasing here) that he would be getting a Falcon030 from Atari in November when the "new form factor" (he said that the first Falcon030's were in older Atari cases) machines come off the production line. The next day, he said that there would be two "form factors" of the Falcon030, which would be the 1040ST-style case and a "tower" case design. In support for this, the September issue of ATARI ST USER also mentions German sources close to Atari that the original black case color would probably be changed back to the light-grey case color (which we now know is true, of course) and that there would be a new Falcon030 case design (they said around April '93, though) AND that there would be at least one 68040 model Falcon above the Falcon030 and at least one Falcon model BELOW the Falcon030. A.DIPIETRO - Well, I figured Atari could design their own tower (or even desktop-style) case and use the same F030 motherboard. The only problems being the joystick, enhanced controller, and MIDI ports, and the cartridge connector, but those could pretty easily be 'brought out' to either the front or back of a tower case (and even less of a problem on a properly-designed desktop-style case), and a seperate keyboard shouldn't be too hard to add. If this is true, though, it would be interesting to know if anything else is added except the obvious drive mountings/'bays' such as a few VMEbus slots/etc. or if perhaps those could be done by third party developers? C.TOWNSLEY - Oh, shoot! I thought we were onto something there. Maybe Jerry found out that a custom tower case would be available in November. More likely, though, Jerry just misinterpretted what was said at the show. D.ENGEL - I think the 'cheap' price is what they meant would be "clear and pleasing..." ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 93 Wed Sep 16, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 18:46 EDT To: S.Johnson10 Atari can keep there basic, they should BUY out GFA if they want to have a Good Basic (Then Fix it up a bit). To: J.Richter I thought "Word" came with windows 3.1. I played with it since we have it at work and it is a very nice WP but if it is $400 it is not worth it, But it is a nice WP. Atari could use a WP like "WORD" To: Who Ever 1 Meg Ram? what a wast a 2 meg configuration Min! A 65 Meg hard drive is to small to do anything with, maybe for the beginner its ok. I think a 4 meg Ram and a 210 meg hard drive would be a good size. To: J.EIDSVOOG1 And J. Richter I had a slight problem with the Calligrapher Demo and so did someone else but if you take out all the ACC's and AutoRun files you should not have a problem (that was mine). Calligrapher is one of the better WP's for the Atari but i think it needs more work. Codehead said the new version with all of the fixes should be out soon and that should take care of most of the problems people have been having with Calligrapher. it also looks like it should run on a 16mhz Atari or faster. I am sure that the Falcon would take care of that. T.GIRSCH I remember on my Atari 8-bit i got DOS (what ever) with my percom drive and it had longer file names somthing like 16 chrs or something and it sucked. I Agree with you 12chrs is good for me ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 94 Wed Sep 16, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 20:50 EDT JPC, I don't know. I'd guess that some do better than others though. Does "virtually ALL" include car manufacturers? Does it include IBM, Compac, or Dell? I don't know that either. I was just saying that I thought the 'get it out by Christmas or never' talk seems to be a terribly extreme overstatement of the value of Christmas sales for computers. In many industries, Christmas accounts for about half the yearly sales. I'll wager that's much lower in the computer industry. Mark Farmer, I think 65 Megs, though a little small, is big enough for casual use. On a clone I'd consider anything less than 200Megs inadequate, but then again games don't take up 21Megs each on the Atari either (nor does you average appliction take up 30 Megs). Ben White ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 95 Thu Sep 17, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 01:13 EDT John, Then why continue calling it the Language disk? Mark Farmer, I'm quite productive doing development work with only a 45meg hard drive. Remember, we're not loading the OS and a gazillion overlays from disk. Sure a 660meg HD woould be nice (for digital recording :) but not necessary in a low end machine. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 96 Thu Sep 17, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:24 EDT M.FARMER2 - The only problem with GFA BASIC is that it ain't BASIC. Don't get me wrong, though! It's pretty damn neat on its own. Also, YOU try to find a 210MB 2.5" IDE drive! The largest 2.5" IDE drives I've seen are around 120MB. FIFTHCRUSADE - Nor does JUST THE OS need several dozens of megabytes! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 97 Thu Sep 17, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:16 EDT Nathan, Maybe the Tower Falcon Jerry is rumored to be getting is just a regular Falcon030 turned on its side. You'd type on it sort of like you would play an accordion, maybe. J.P.C., Apple's new cheap Macs are Performas, not Proformas. :) Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 98 Thu Sep 17, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:36 EDT Uh, I may be standing in the woods all alone here, but I kinda like the all-in- one case. Just improve the keyboard, and I'll be happy. Two Falcons to every dealer by the end of October? Good thing half of Fifth Crusade works for the local one here. That fact better get me one of the two, right, Ben? I've played with Word 5 for Windows, and the thing I found most impressive was the _way_ the thing worked, not so much its functions. I like that when you're in a centered block of text, there's a little icon showing this fact. Ditto for many of the features. The interface is such that a beginner can feel comfortable, yet the program packs a lot of power. It's the little touches like this that are somewhat lacking in much Atari software. Towns - Thanks for the info on selecting video resolutions. Lots of us have the idea of hooking up a multisync monitor so that we can get all resolutions, but someone brought up the interesting point that a special adaptor would be needed so that the monitor could access both the RGB and VGA lines. If you get a chance, could you get one of the hardware guys at Atari to address this issue? The reason everyone is so hot on this issue is that it would be nice to display 640x480x256 and 640x400xTC and have overscan all on the same monitor. Gee, now I sound like one of those people who wants it all... Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 99 Thu Sep 17, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 05:56 EDT Mark Farmer, >Calligrapher is one of the better WP's for the Atari but i think it >needs more work. Codehead said the new version with all of the fixes >should be out soon and that should take care of most of the problems >people have been having with Calligrapher. I'm not sure where you get your information. The problems people have been having with Calligrapher have all been solved in our support topic, through a clearer understanding of the documentation and operation of the program. As for a "new version with all of the fixes", where did you get this idea? If you feel Calligrapher needs more work, you're entitled to your opinion, but none of the actual owners of the program have voiced that opinion. If you have further comments about Calligrapher, please voice them in Category 32, Topic 32. Thank you. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 100 Thu Sep 17, 1992 ESMITH at 11:27 EDT Folks, What sort of graphics can I expect if I hook my Atari monochrome monitor up to the Falcon... Will I get greyscale or plain old ST high res??? Also is the Falcon 32 bit internally or is it 16 bit (like the TT)... Does Spectre GCR work on it yet? -------------ESMith ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 101 Thu Sep 17, 1992 G.ZEPKA1 [Greg] at 17:52 EDT Jim, Then the computer has the drive select port to support the second drive. When making many multiple copies of disks a second drive is nice. Greg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 102 Thu Sep 17, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 21:53 EDT Kevin >John, Then why continue calling it the Language disk? Different kind of language Kevin -- the versions of the programs on the disk depend on the LANGUAGE of the country the computer is intended to be sold :-) -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 103 Thu Sep 17, 1992 J.P.C. at 21:59 EDT I stand (sit) corrected on the speling of PERFORMA. Here in Washington, DC, most of the major IBM retailers are 'dumping' their current PS/1 stock... to get ready for the new PS/1 coming before Xmas. Most new cars are introduced in the 4th quarter. Maybe they don't COUNT on Xmas sales but, they do it! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 104 Thu Sep 17, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 22:32 EDT Charles, Your getting me excited now... IMPORT/EXPORT for Word and WordPerfect would EXCITE more than a few folks to stay with ATARI... I guess I will HAVE re- download the DEMO... SEND ME IT ON FLOPPY IF it fails this time.. Jerry Richter Mark, It is HIGHLY "worth it" if your a professional and MUST have the POWER!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 105 Thu Sep 17, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:52 EDT DANUSER, Yeiks!! ... You know me to be kinda a Word Processing SNOB... (not really..) but PLEASE... PLEASE (and I know you've heard this before) but download PAPYRUS ... just new on Genie... W O W Please ... even though you can't read german this is SOOOO Powerfull and User friendly!! its got some of the NICE features of Word for Windows and AmiPro but FAR easier to understand and use!!!! Try to picture Word for Windows.. Publisher ST (only more refined) and a little PageStream ALL IN ONE! If you don't think you need AWSOME Word Processing look at this one... T H E B E S T D O W N L O A D of the YEAR!! IF this one had Word for Windows 2.0 Import/Export with AMERICAN version I will buy $2000 more of ATARI stock.... Jerry Richter ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 106 Fri Sep 18, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 00:34 EDT Welp.. I always thought of it as being a language specific disk and not really a programming language disk. You see? ;-) -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 107 Fri Sep 18, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 05:17 EDT S.DANUSER - I'd imagine those "two Falcon's to every dealer by the end of October" to be INTENDED for demo models (or at least ONE of the two). ESMITH - You get plain old ST high res using a SM124/125/147. From what I've heard, the Falcon is more like 24-bit, although a lot of the more technical info is Greek to me. J.P.C. - A lot of retailers 'dump' as much stock as they can around September to avoid paying inventory taxes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 108 Fri Sep 18, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 18:27 EDT Soul Manager.. I am not sure how (or if it is possible) to hook up one MultiSync monitor to handle all (or most) of the resolutions with the Falcon030. I know that our people here have looked into it and think that it might be possible. Perhaps a developer could work up a third party monitor that would accomplish this task. Sounds like an opportunity to me.. ESMITH.. You will get normal ST High Resolution. I don't know what you mean by internally. As for the GCR.. well, I am not sure. I haven't actually tried it. I do know that Dave Small has been working with a Falcon030. I suspect that if they Falcon030 doesn't work, then Dave will be able to fix things pretty quickly. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 109 Fri Sep 18, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 19:56 EDT Trying to find a HD bigger than 65meg in a 2.5" form factor is not so easy either..... -------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 110 Fri Sep 18, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 20:01 EDT To: K.Houser Well im just used to more storage I guess I had a 60 meg hard drive hooked to my Atari 8-Bit back in 1986. To: S.Johnson10 Yea I have been looking for a larger IDE 2.5 drive and the bigest I have found was a 130meg drive from Toshiba, 17ms $499 from Hard Drive International 1-800- 998-8028. Since I will prob never see a Falcon till I return from Korea in 13 months maybe then they will have a bigger IDE 2.5 inch drive, but I was really refering to Atari to leave the config of the Falcon open so I can get just a 14 meg Falcon without hard drive and let my buy my own so I can stick something bigger in there. To: J.Eidsvoog1 Roger that, a reply will be sent to you in Cat 32, top 32 about Clearing up what I was refering to in my message about your Cal WP program. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 111 Fri Sep 18, 1992 ESMITH at 20:37 EDT Folks, What I mean by what resolutions can you get with an SM 124... is whether one can finally get the monitor to display ST low or ST med under greyscale and how much higher can the monitor be pushed... The reason I ask this is that with a monochrome VGA monitor... one can change resolutions and get greyscale. I know that one can get a color monitor emulator for a mono monitor, but that slows the machine down... -------------Esmith ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 112 Fri Sep 18, 1992 MYECK.WATERS [myeck] at 21:57 EDT Dear Someone-at-Atari; 1) I seem to remember reading that the SM147 is basically a grayscale VGA monitor - or do I have that wrong? Anyway, if that is the case, could a cable adapter be made available to allow it to be used as a grayscale on the Falcon? 2) I've noticed that even Radio Shack now has a reasonably-priced full-page mono VGA monitor in their catalog - is the video output on the Falcon capable of being software-jiggered to drive one of those? 3) Given CD-quality (16 bit, at least 44KHz) sampling, how many channels are the CoDec(s) capable of driving at once? I'm assuming that the number for analog-to-digital may be different that for D-to-A. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 113 Fri Sep 18, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:55 EDT J.P.C. I don't know what cars you've been pricing recently, but I can say with confidence that the 'new' models of cars can come out virtually any time of the year. The car companies seem to stagger their new models throughout the year. ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 114 Fri Sep 18, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 23:00 EDT Esmith, I think I understand what you are getting at. Since the SM 124 essentialy is a monochrome VGA monitor, I would not be suprised if grey scale were possible connected to a Falcon running in one of the *VGA* modes. Interesting idea! -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 115 Sat Sep 19, 1992 L.MCCLURE at 00:43 EDT I recall reading in one, in a text from Atari itself (either a conference transcript or the video specs) that the SM124 would only be useable on the Falcon in one mode...the 640x400 ST hi-res equivalent. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 116 Sat Sep 19, 1992 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 02:05 EDT Hey T-bird. Even if you don't need a 'business' computer, most people would still LIKE the idea of someday being able to run a Word Processor. Mention the phrase 'word processor', and who do they think of? WP. PERIOD. To give you a car analogy: If you didn't know much about cars and I asked you which sports car you would rather have: a Chevrolet Cavalier Z24 or a Volkwagen Corrado SLC? You would probably go for the Z24 because everyone and their uncle has one and it's not a bad car. Or you would say "A Volkswagen? Those little things w/ 24 HP? NEVER." Of course, most people don't realize the SLC has a 2.8 V6 w/ 176 HP. They look at the 'typical' VW. Same for computers. Here, run Calligrapher on an Atari - it's better than WP or Word for Windows. "What, on a game machine? HA HA HA" Now if you could say "Here, THIS Atari runs WP AND great games." "Really? Maybe I'll take a look". Of course, you probably know the price differential for a Z24:SLC (I'm guessing at US prices from Canadian prices) is about 10-11K for a Z24 & 19-20K for an SLC. If you read rec.autos.vw, you will see the word "Fahrvergnuegen" many times. This is the idea of driving enjoyment, which many feel is best experienced in a VW. Of course, it costs more than a Z24, and may even cost more for repairs. But it'll leave that Z24 in the dust, w/ ABS, Traction Control (a la 1993 Vette), AC, Tilt, Cruise, Power, BBS rims, Recaro Seats ALL STANDARD. Only 2 options - Sunroof & Leather interior. Sounds a lot like the PC & Atari - PCs are cheap, and you have to add everything (sound cards, better video, etc), Atari comes w/ everything, but is much more initially ($1400 for a 4/60 machine has been reported w/o monitor - that's almost closer to a Mac price). Maybe that's why I own an Atari & Drive a VW :) I plan to buy a Falcon or TT in the near future - whichever runs GCR the best - but I think having a 'name-brand' product like WP would help SUBSTANTIALLY. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 117 Sat Sep 19, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:55 EDT SAM-RAPP - Seagate has an 80MB 2.5" IDE (1" high) drive that I've seen for under $300. MYECK.WATERS - The CoDec can only handle 2 channels (i.e. 1 stereo pair) in and out. There's an internal multiplexer which will 'mix' 8 channels down to 2. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 118 Sat Sep 19, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 04:19 EDT myeck, 1. Nope. The monochrome monitor is a specialized Atari monitor. It definitely isn't VGA. And no, you can't do gray scale with that monitor on a Falcon030. Sorry. 2. I was using a monochrome VGA monitor on the Falcon030 when I was finishing up the Set Video Modes code for TOS. Worked fine for me. It should work like a normal VGA monitor. But you will just get grey scales instead of color. (PS. You can get VGA monitors for pretty cheap these days. One of the guys here at work picked up a Super VGA monitor for around 300 dollars this week.) 3. I am going to leave this for Bill Rehbock. I really don't know much about the Sound capabilities for Falcon030. I have heard it do some amazing things, but I don't know the specifics on it. Sorry. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. PS. Please take the debates on Software to the Debates and Flames Category.. Category 18. We need to keep this area clear for people interested in Falcon030 specifics. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 119 Sat Sep 19, 1992 A.VALENT [Mike] at 08:09 EDT Wuztek's old mono monitor/switchbox would accept an ST color signal and display it as greyscale. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 120 Sat Sep 19, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 08:20 EDT John (TOWNS) is it possible to buy a monitor from an IBM dealer (or clone) and connect it to a Falcon? Billy B. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 121 Sat Sep 19, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 09:31 EDT Towns.... Congratulations and Happy Birthday! 23 is a good number. Ralph..... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 122 Sat Sep 19, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:37 EDT Mattias: Mention the phrase 'Word Processor' to most any average man-on-the-street, and he will stare at you like you just offered him a dead squirrel. WP is only popular in DOS-box circles... nowhere else. In fact, it is the salesmen who tell their potential customers how incredibly superiffic WP is, in order to push some clone on them. Most consumers will trust the salesman when he says it's the best in the world. When you try to explain about alternatives to this person, they will get very defensive and even offensive, since they need to cover up the fact that they were gullible enough to trust the salesman and buy something obviously inferior. They will defend the inferior product religiously. The Falcon030 would do very nicely if shown in a side-by side comparison with a PC, by an honest salesman (there are some here in this topic even as we speak, so they do exist). Remember, Atari had one of your amazingly popular Word processors written and sold by one of these amazingly huge Word Processor conglomerates. What happened? 1) It didn't sell many more ST's. 2) It didn't sell many of itself. 3) It was dropped from production. __________________________ \hunderbird P.S. What software will be shown on the Falcon030 at the BCS rollout? It's a 3.5-4 hour drive for me, and I'm seriously thinking of going. Someone convince me I need to go. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 123 Sat Sep 19, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 10:36 EDT Thunderbird: Rumor has it that they will be showing a fantastic new game called "Pong" on the Falcon...the bounce of the ball will be in stereo! Actually, if you check out the Glendale RTC transcript, the demo they allude to in there sounds fantastic...! Anthony ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 124 Sat Sep 19, 1992 J.JENKINS19 [Jarius] at 12:03 EDT Thunderbird, I'm going to the BCS from NYC (leaving from Leigh's computers). Would be nice to see someone else with a 3.5 hr drive there as well! BTW, what are the best directions there (I hear I95 is not the fastest way) /s ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 125 Sat Sep 19, 1992 MYECK.WATERS [myeck] at 12:46 EDT >TOWNS [John@Atari] at 04:19 EDT >1. Nope. The monochrome monitor is a specialized Atari monitor. It > definitely isn't VGA. And no, you can't do gray scale with that > monitor on a Falcon030. Sorry. Wait a minute - I'm sure the owner's manual that came with my SM147 called it a VGA - where'd I put that thing...? >2. I was using a monochrome VGA monitor on the Falcon030 when I was > finishing up the Set Video Modes code for TOS. Worked fine for me. What I'm referring to is a FULL PAGE VGA monitor, i.e., a "portrait" orientation instead or "landscape". ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 126 Sat Sep 19, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 16:56 EDT Bill.. do you mean a VGA monitor? If so, yes. In fact, I don't think Atari is going to make monitors this time around. We would rather concentrate on doing these wonderful computers ;-) Ralph.. Thanks, but it's 24! Thunderbird.. I think that the majority of the demonstration will center around showing off the amazing sound and graphics hardware. We will have some really awesome sound demos set up as well as some VERY cool video demonstrations. As for what else besides that, I really don't know what the team has up their sleeves. I do know that there are about 10 Falcon030 machines going to the show and I think that people will actually get to play with one ;-) myeck.. A SM147 is a ST monochrome monitor.. At least as far as I know. As for a full-page monitor.. Someone would have to write some driver software for it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 127 Sat Sep 19, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 17:04 EDT Myeck - You are right. The old SM124 is what John was referring to. It was NOT a VGA monitor. But, the newer SM147, which is what you have, is definitely a VGA mono, and will work with the Falcon, if you have the right cable for it. The cable you now have is special, and I really doubt there will be a Falcon adaptor that will allow you to use THAT cable, with VGA selected. The cable you now have will look like an SM124, to the Falcon, causing it to default to ST mono only. No greyscale. Pick up a standard VGA cable, and it'll work fine. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 128 Sat Sep 19, 1992 B.BILLJONES2 [BILL JONES] at 20:41 EDT Jim Ness Concerning the SM147 the manual does statesthat it's a VGA monochrome. But, I had a video tech I know call Atari and get the real scoop. He was told that it is a Phillips model that has been modified with only the minimum amount of circuitry needed to produce a two color (black & white) display. Sound dumb? That's what I thought... especially since you can pick up a full featured mono VGA just about anywhere for MUCH less than Atari is charging for the SM147. Theoretically you CAN do this. With normal ST/STEs the SM147 (or mono VGA) won't give as good as x & y linearity as the older SM124 which is dedicated at 640x400. My room mate sent back his first SM147 because of this "problem", and his replacement is only scantily better. We've probably have all heard reports of this from other purchasers of the SM147. I would doubt that the Falcon would have any linearity problems with a unbastardized mono VGA. Perhaps someone online here could verify what the Atari tech told my tech. Bill Jones ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 129 Sat Sep 19, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:53 EDT Jarius: You'll have to ask someone else directions. I usually take the 'popular' routes because it's harder to get lost that way. I just get on I-90 in Albany, and drive all the way down the Mass Pike. The tolls are a ripoff, but at least the construction is mostly completed. If you want the fastest route, do what I do... drive 85. I was racing my buddies from UMass (near Northampton) to Albany coming back from winning the Eastern Region Water Ski Show Competition and we were psyched so much we drove _hard_. We did something on the order of 150 miles in 1:45. It would have been a better time except the toll booths were really backed up on a Sunday evening. I got 29.9 MPG on that trip too. Who said that big American V-8's were guzzlers? And who else said that 55 saved gas? Poppycock! ________________________ \hunderbird I can't wait to see a Falcon!!!! I wonder if Atari will accept American Express at BCS... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 130 Sun Sep 20, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:56 EDT Jim, Side by Side comparison with SM124 and SM147... the SM124 BLOWS away the SM147!! Clarity, Focus and SOUND the SM147 has NO sound! Gee I am disapointed... I Can't use my SM124?? with a special adapter?? boooooo..... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 131 Sun Sep 20, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 02:07 EDT Yes, I agree the SM147 is an aknowledged p____ of ____ and Atari should stop selling the thing!! How can they sell the SM124, so GREAT, then switch to something soooo ugly and BAD.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 132 Sun Sep 20, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:15 EDT There's still a few unresolved questions concerning the Falcon030: 1) Will the adaptors for different monitors be INCLUDED with the Falcon030 or will they have to be purchased separately? 2) What's the highest BPS rate for the Falcon030's serial port (and that TOS 4.0 'recognizes')? 3) What problem(s) is/are there in having RAM configurations other than 1, 4, and 14(16)MB? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 133 Sun Sep 20, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:37 EDT J.RICHTER - Yes, you CAN use an SM124 on the Falcon030. Also, someone quoted, I think, Sam Tramiel several months ago as saying the SM147 was some kind of 'temporary' product. When I had an SM124, I found the clarity and focus pretty bad...and you're saying the SM147 is worse??? Sheesh! I can't imagine! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 134 Sun Sep 20, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 03:28 EDT Hmm, I guess I was wrong. Bill.. As I said earlier, Atari appears to be getting out of the monitor business. The pricing on monitors is too low to even justify the time and expense for Atari monitors. Super VGA monitors are as low as $300! Amazing.. Steve.. here are some answers: 1. I don't know. I will attempt to find out when everyone returns from the BCS show. I won't even try to guess because I will probably be wrong ;-) 2. I think it is 115K bps on the serial port. The Serial Port now uses the SCC chip and can handle much faster speeds. 3. The memory system isn't set up to handle them. Besides with the low price of memory, I imagine that most people will probably just opt for the higher memory models anyway. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 135 Sun Sep 20, 1992 S.GOLDFEIN [Haplo] at 05:46 EDT No Doubt. Plus, on an ST that has 4 megs, YOU WILL very RARELY get an OUT OF MEMORY message when loading a terminal program, just becuase you have a TSR Loaded and YOU DONT have to tell the ST that you have 4 megs (I wonder why?)! Dorothy - And the Atari Mouse doesnt look as appetizing as some of the other mouses either! Outrider- I just bought my ST used (In March) and it was the FIRST ST in Maryland, and was used to run the FIRST ST BBS in maryland, Tangent Line. Actually, I didnt buy it, my Work did. But its been through alot of use, and has seen many hours (probably as many as my old 130xe) and the mouse works fine. Haplo with Hard Drive Blues ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 136 Sun Sep 20, 1992 S.WINICK at 08:26 EDT J.RICHTER, Many people prefer the SM147 to the older SM124. I know I've taken a awful lot of SM124's in trade since the SM147 made it's debut (Of course, the trade- ins also sell about as fast as I can get them ;-). The 147 is especially popular with musicians who generally don't work directly in front of the monitor but need to see it from a little distance. The larger picture size is a welcome addition. Obviously, given the same overall resolution (640 x 400) spread over an area almost twice as large as the old 12" monitor's tiny picture area, the dpi resolution will necessarily be lower. For close up work, the SM124 definitely offers a sharper picture, but the 147 is a pleasure to use for anyone who doesn't like the monitor right in front of his nose all the time. The SC1435 has the same problem -- spreading the pixels out over a larger area than earlier model SC1224's. Of course the colors are brighter on the 1435 compared to recent model 1224's, but for detailed line work or text, the 1224 is definitely sharper. There again, some folks still prefer the larger picture area --- to each his own. It's nice to be able to offer our customers the choice so they can choose whichever they most prefer. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 137 Sun Sep 20, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 09:38 EDT To: D.ENGEL Driving 55 will save gas/fuel but im not into saving gas im more into speed like the speed it will give me to upgrade from this Atari STE to A Falcon 30/40 To: S.Johnson10 I thought all of the questions you were asking were already covered in Text files, all but the ram config other than the standard. To: Towns Since even you from atari said that they (users) would just go for the larger ram configed Falcons why is there a 1-meg version? why even bother with 1 meg? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 138 Sun Sep 20, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:53 EDT Steve: The SM124 is an excellent monitor, the problem it had was that they would be factory adjusted to about a 9" diagonal screen area, because they were tricky to adjust to the full screen and get good x & y linearity and good focus over the entire monitor. Many do-it-yourselfers messed around with the adjustments to enlarge the screens and wound up with some pretty distorted screens. Some people even broke the ferrite coils by adjusting them with the wrong tool, and made their misadjustments permanent. Sheldon: I've got one of the 'circa 1985' SC1224's (Made by Panasonic, I believe) and it has the brightest colors of _any_ consumer monitor I have seen. It has really dark blacks too. It's much better than the 1435, except for screen size. If you find one, give it a try... they are the ones that look sort of like a 1/2 fuij on it's side, have the speaker on the top, have a darker grey bezel around the picture tube, push-button on/off switch plus volume and contrast knobs _ON THE FRONT_!!! I had it hooked up to a friend's Amiga and the flicker wasn't bad, so I look forward to Falconizing it. Besides, now your musician customers have the option of hooking their Falcon030 up to as big a television set they can buy, and using their favorite 640x400 software on it. They could put it across the room and still read it. Or, use it for a graphics demo during their music... a real crowd-pleaser!! Towns: Just curious... do the darker grey keys on the Falcon030 match the darker grey bezel around my SC1224 screen? It would be really a nice co-incidence. Also, didn't _really_ early production 520ST's come with darker grey function keys? I think I saw one once. Mark Farmer: I can't drive 55. My car won't go that slow. I'll have to have it 'checked out' one of these days, but I never seem to have the time. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 139 Sun Sep 20, 1992 J.P.C. at 11:59 EDT Actually, driving faster saves gas. The less time you spend on the road, the less gas you have time to burn! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 140 Sun Sep 20, 1992 G.MON2 at 12:49 EDT Anyone: Can someone please verify whether the Falcon030's processor direct slot contains all the address and data lines of the 68030? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 141 Sun Sep 20, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 12:52 EDT Thunderbird. At Glendale we were using the SC1224 monitor to display our true color Slide show. Images look wonderful. Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 142 Sun Sep 20, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:35 EDT Tbird, I got 63 mpg on that trip the last time I drove it in my diesel. :) Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 143 Sun Sep 20, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:48 EDT Al Fasoldt: I bet you got 63 mpg, but I was at a disadvantage because I had the A/C on and the T-Tops off. I'm sure I could have done better if I actually was concerned about fuel economy. ;-) ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 144 Mon Sep 21, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:55 EDT Steve, You definitly must have owned a BAD one cause I have had (2) (sold 1 with a 1040) and after proper adjustment it is one of the clearest monitors I have ever seen! I have seen (3)SM147's and well, BAD... I am glad ATARI is out of the monitor business anyway. What makes you say that you CAN use the SM124 on the Falcon?.. I was just told it was a "Special" and not VGA compatible.. ATARI.. Mr. Towns? Sheldon, I know your a Dealer but REALLY! 90% of us sit at close range and type (18" to 30") so what is your point? It's ok to sell a big FUZZY monitor? Yes, I know folks who have purchased and traded in their old SM124.. they were impressed at first by the NEW nifty size.. but after awhile they missed there OLD smaller but FAR sharper image! and some didn't realize there was NO sound till they got the thing home.. but most just GRINGE at the YELLOW knob and shake their head.. then maybe opt for a PC.. ATARI has always meant QUALITY to me.. This Mega4 is the ROCK of Gibralter! and THIS SM124 is something you can look at for hours and hours and hours with NO eye strain! I hate to see it go.. Mark, Yes.. who will ever want a 1 meg maching? I mean the smallest MAC is 2megs! We all know you can't run a modern bit-mapped machine on less than 4megs .... sooooo ... Just start with 4megs at $899 and we are all HAPPY! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 145 Mon Sep 21, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 02:45 EDT Because at one megabyte... we reach certain pricepoints which are important for first time buyers. Thunderbird.. I really don't know. I hadn't thought about it. My first guess is to say that the keys are slighly darker. But, I will see if I can find out. G.MON2: I think that it does. I have been told that processor upgrades would be easy from this slot and considering that info.. I am led to believe that the processor direct slot contains all of the processor lines. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 146 Mon Sep 21, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:32 EDT TOWNS - Even with the "low price of memory," there's a BIG difference between about $125 for 4MB of RAM and about $500 for 16MB of RAM. I just think it's too bad that nobody can opt for $250 for 8MB of RAM and they are forced to fork over around $400 if they want to upgrade above 4MB RAM. What exactly does "the memory system isn't set up to handle them" mean? Is it a hardware restriction (like 512k, 1MB, 2MB, and 4MB being the only configurations recognized by the STE's MCU) or what? I thought it was said that other memory configurations WOULD be possible but that it might be slower??? Oh! And happy 24th! G.MON2 - Yes, I was also wondering about that on the 'PDS'connectors, because I'd heard that it DIDN'T contain all the 68030 address and data lines. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 147 Mon Sep 21, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:54 EDT J.RICHTER - The SM124 I used to own had a slightly 'skewed' display and wasn't all that clear. After 'tweaking' it a bit it looked a little better, but the focus control insider couldn't be turned any further in the direction it needed to be turned to focus the picture any better. What makes me say that you CAN use an SM124 on the Falcon030 is because that's already been said so a number of times. There are two monitor adaptors for the Falcon030's video port, one for hooking up a VGA monitor and one for hooking up EITHER an ST RGB or ST mono monitor. TOWNS - But if 4MB were the bottom, then Falcon developers could ASSUME that all Falcon owners have at least 4MB of RAM and develop accordingly (to all our benefit). Besides, if MultiTOS is going to be shipped with all Falcon030's, then you really NEED more than 1MB to use it, right? If so, I hope there's a note in the manual about that, for Atari's sake, so that they don't get a lot of complaints from new Falcon owners. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 148 Mon Sep 21, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:20 EDT Towns - While I know that the decision to market a 1 meg version is beyond your control, I must agree that I'd rather see the 4 meg as the low end. Programmers have only recently broken free from the constraints of 512k on the ST, so most Falconware (TM Soul Manager Inc.) will be tied to the 1 meg models. Of course, most upgrades beyond 4 megs will be for MultiTOS users who need to run several apps in memory at once. But, if it will sell a few more machines, I say what the heck. I do kinda wish they had left the keyboard lighter than the case, though. I keep trying to picture my ST with darker keys, and I get a rather goofy image. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 149 Mon Sep 21, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:26 EDT Tbird, I have an SC1224 just like yours. It's a JVC, and everything you describe is true -- black blacks, bright reds, brilliant contrasts. I picked it up used after a long lifetime with a Goldstar-made SC1224. The Falcon ought to make these JVC monitors worth twice what they cost new. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 150 Mon Sep 21, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 08:08 EDT A friend who went to the Glendale show told me he saw a grey computer that looked like a 1040 ST and asked if that was the Falcon. He says the lady in the booth told him it was not. I somehow missed seeing it, but I am curious what that lady was doing? Was she covering up so the Falcon could be a big surprise? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 151 Mon Sep 21, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 08:46 EDT Bill, it's likely that the lady was merely telling the truth. The only Falcons I know about at the show were (a) on the stage, (b) in Lexicor's booth, or (c) used for a door prize. Did your friend see those? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 152 Mon Sep 21, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 17:56 EDT J.Richter well maybe not 4 megs for a base mach like you want, 2 megs would be best for a base than 1 meg, I too would rather go for the MAX 14 megs since I currently use 4 megs on a both of my 1040STE Puters. Its like back on the old days where you upgrade from a tape player to a S\S S\D Disk Drive to two disk drives, you never want to go back to one floppy drive (unless you have a hard drive) but back then we hardly had anything that hooked to a Atari let alone a Hard Drive (Until ICD made there 1 Meg MIO board) and loved hooking the 60 meg hard drive up to my 130XE computer (door stop now). To: S.Johnson10 im sure someone will make a program to get around the 4 to 16 meg jump just like there was a fix for the STE to allow 2.5 megs ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 153 Mon Sep 21, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 18:15 EDT The Memory Management in the system and the layout of the memory prevents the system from having anything other than 1, 4, or 14 Megabytes of memory. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 154 Mon Sep 21, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 19:49 EDT Towns, Here's a Falcon software question for you. Under MultiTOS, is process control of the DSP chip context switched, or does one process own the semaphore for it? How about the sound system and the FPU? Also (I already asked this but...) what is this "Atari's answer to Quicktime" stuff? Is it a bunch of new OS services, or is it a set of standard graphics and sound libraries, or is it just a single piece of software? What is it? Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 155 Mon Sep 21, 1992 J.PATTERSON3 [Ted] at 20:31 EDT J.RICHTER - I traded in my SM124 for an SM147 and have been very pleased with it. IMHO, the SM147 is a big improvement. I guess it boils down to personal preference. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 156 Mon Sep 21, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 21:11 EDT We had the dark grey Falcon in our booth. It had no name plate but the color made it look different than the 1040 ST. Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 157 Mon Sep 21, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 21:22 EDT If the Falcon data bus is 32 bits wide, and 4 bit wide chips are used, memory size will be in multiples of *EIGHT* chips. To obtain the 32 bit wide memory: Total Memory Chip Size/Type # of Chips Req'd ===================================================================== 16 meg 1 megabit by 4 bit (4 meg RAM) 32 chips. 4 meg 1 megabit by 4 bit (4 meg RAM) 8 chips. 1 meg 256K bit by 4 bit (1 meg RAM) 8 chips. It's sort of like going from 1 meg to 4 meg simms in the PC's. I hope this is close to reality -- best guestimate ;-) -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 158 Mon Sep 21, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:24 EDT Towns: Not to add cunfusion to the issues, I feel compelled to add my own 2 cents worth about 'other' RAM configurations... In my humble opinion, I don't see why _any_ configuration is forbidden. Assume you had a 14 meg unit and for some reason the pin connected to the highest address line going to the RAM board mysteriously were to make no contact (defective connector or something). Suddenly, your machine has 8 megs of memory, instead of 14 (16 actually). I've seen this sort of thing happen _all the time_ and I really don't understand why it couldn't be 'put to use' as a technique for populating various RAM configurations. Granted, I've never designed anything with 32 bit busses, but I have designed RAM expansions for various 16 bit processors. I do admit that in some cases, the addresses 'wrapped around' to 0x0000000 when you tried to write beyond the last RAM populated, but careful software coding takes care of that. I suppose TOS _could_ detect 'invalid' RAM configurations at bootup, and halt the bootup, therefore prohibiting the configuration. In other words, what's so special about the Falcon030 that it defies the likes of Jim Allen and Dave Small to expand it flexibly? ______________________ \hunderbird 'cause I want a 32 Meg Falcon030 ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 159 Mon Sep 21, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:09 EDT Let me answer that. I was mis-informed about the Falcon's expansion capability, and ran off at the mouth about how easy it'll be to enhance...NOT. Towns is apparently ALSO mis-informed, I'd suggest he go read the Falcon docs and then answer GMON2's question correctly. TBird, if you don't include a sufficient expansion bus _and_ use a high density surfacemount CPU chip, you affectively make the Falcon "special". I am not at liberty to expound on why it's so special. On the SM124 question. It is a .26 dot pitch monitor, with the "dots" packed in real tight. It is also a fairly "bright" phosphor, so it provides for a bright, very fine display, that's easy on the eyes and looks real nice. I use a .26 dot pitch color monitor on my PC, it makes it painless to spend hours in front of the monitor doing delicate work at 1024x768 and beyond. I rue the day when my last SM124 eventually croaks, it'll be tough to replace. Jim Allen, Fast Technology ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 160 Tue Sep 22, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 00:45 EDT Jim, so how long before you can give us some specific details on how easy (or difficult) the Falcon will be to upgrade? And what kind of goodies you plan (or hope) to offer for it? John... still no info on the specific video modes anywhere to be found, PLEASE nail down one of your hardware folks and get some answers for us. Thanks. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 161 Tue Sep 22, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 01:42 EDT When a process uses the DSP, they lockup the resources using a system call. Then no other processes can use the DSP while that system process has the DSP locked. When the lock is removed from the DSP, then the resource is available. As for Atari's answer to QuickTime, I don't know what you are talking about. There are currently no QuickTime-style standards set for the Falcon030. We have investigated such things, but we have nothing the OS at this point. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 162 Tue Sep 22, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 01:50 EDT Gee Jim, ya kinda left us hanging. Are you saying that all of the processor lines (data/address) are not available from the PDS and since the CPU is surface mounted you can't get at them so all those exciting upgrades -040, video etc are now a dead issue? Inquiring minds must know. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 163 Tue Sep 22, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 02:11 EDT Towns, I admit that the Falcon has MORE power than the LOW END performa MACS but their low low end system comes with 4meg RAM! thats 16mhz 030 with monitor for under $1300 ... LIST! so .. since we all know that (1) meg is a fraud to what the Falcon can do .. why risk the BAD image?! ATARI be honest with the public, 4meg is the minimum for new graphic based systems! I'd rather see $900-$950 (who cares about $800) and see ALL happy ATARI owners! Somehow I think ATARI will do this and forgo the 1meg maching of today ... as they did the 256k system of 1985.. .. Anyway 256K chips? hmmm did'nt even know they were for sale anymore... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 164 Tue Sep 22, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:18 EDT Tbird, I had the AC on, too. If I had been concerned about fuel economy, I could have slowed down to 55.... Now back to your regularly scheduled topic! Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 165 Tue Sep 22, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 07:32 EDT Towns, OK, thanks. That "Atari's answer to Quicktime" stuff was refering to someone's post about some Falcon showing (might have been Glendale). The poster claimed "Atari's answer to Quicktime" was a Bill Rehbock quote. I was just wondering what it meant. I guess if you don't know about it, it can't really be "Atari's answer to Quicktime". At least not the right answer. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 166 Tue Sep 22, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 10:33 EDT >"When a process uses the DSP . . . then no other processes can use > the DSP while that system process has the DSP locked." Does that mean the DSP won't multitask? For instance, does that mean that if the DSP is being used to play sampled instrument sounds in a midi sequence, it will NOT be available for simultaneous direct-to-disk recording and/or simultaneous pitch-to-midi conversion? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 167 Tue Sep 22, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:07 EDT AD-VANTAGE: I don't see how I'd be forced to design a memory upgrade which conforms to the 4 bit wide chip model you suggest... Why couldn't I use multiples for four chips which were 8 bits wide? This would allow for just about any configuration anyone would want. Jim Allen: I don't understand your message (rather the tone of it). I get the feeling that you are pissed because the Falcon is not very expandable. I hope this isn't true. Maybe it will be Mega Falcon Waiting Time... _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 168 Tue Sep 22, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:38 EDT FAIRWEATHER: I hope this doesn't come off as sarcastic, but you really didn't think the DSP could multitask all of those functions at the same time? I would be happy to have any one one of those features alone in a machine, much less all of them... but to expect them to happen simultaneously is a little much. By the way, the impression I get is that the DSP has little or nothing to do with Direct to disk recording and playback of sounds... The SDMA chip and CoDec do that, while the DSP can be used to 'Process' the digital signals _from_ the CoDec and SDMA, I don't believe it _has_ to be active in record/playback. The DSP is a resource that can only be used by one task at a time. Much like your mouse only controls one tasks pointer at a time, your keyboard only inputs to one task at a time, and your disk only reads or writes to one task at a time. Careful programming might be able to 'share' the DSP among several tasks, but I really don't think it would produce acceptable results in real- time on say a 50KHz sample, while doing JPEG compression for another task. _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 169 Wed Sep 23, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:13 EDT M.FARMER2 - But it will only be useful if such a RAM 'hack' works all the time, unlike SIMMFIX (both versions) for the STE. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 170 Wed Sep 23, 1992 B.AEIN [B Man] at 01:42 EDT Hows about some Quick Index numbers for the Falcon and some of the differnt video modes eh? I sure hope that the 040 version has 24 bit video and maybe have a processor slot for some of those new RISC chips so we could have the best of both worlds! Bman ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 171 Wed Sep 23, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 10:07 EDT Thunderbird, - No I didn't really "expect" the Falcon to be able to do all those tasks simultaneously, but it sure would have been nice! I would still like to see all three features (Direct-to-Disk, Midi-driven samples, and Pitch-to-Midi) included in one sequencer package even if they can't be done simultaneously. But if what you say about the DSP not being needed for Direct-To-Disk recording is true, then perhaps Direct-to-Disk COULD be multitasked with Midi- driven samples? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 172 Wed Sep 23, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 18:49 EDT Its very simple.. We are trying to produce a powerful product at a low price. When you shoot for such a product, you have to cost-reduce some things out of the machine. Falcon030 can't be all things to all people. It will do a pretty good job of making most people happy. However, there are going to be some power users and users with higher needs who are going to need more than Falcon030 can provide. This is why Falcon030 is the _low end_ of the product line. Other computers will be forth coming.. Jim.. I never claimed to be a hardware person. I answer things as best I can. I am a software guy. Therefore, any knowledge you can provide about expansion is okay with me. Gregg.. Please go bug the Developer Support people. I don't have such information and they should get it for you. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 173 Wed Sep 23, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 21:44 EDT John, I did... several times . Still no response though. I'll try and stop bugging you about it here though. I'm looking forward to actually getting to see a Falcon when I get back to the States at the end of the year. See you then. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 174 Wed Sep 23, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 23:36 EDT Bill, an explaination please......... On your september 9th confrence, I asked about documentation for the falcon030. I asked what a non-developer could get. You said: "The Falcon kit, including DSP debugger will be available for $80.00 ... The kit is at the printers now. I will have the first copies for commercial developers at Glendale, and the kit will be available to the public at the end of the month. Please send check or money order to Atari ... Attn:Falcon Docs." So I did. And low and behold, when I get home from work tonight, I find a message on my machine from a Gail Baconte(?) at Atari telling me that "Atari is NOT selling Falcon documentation ... will be released to commercial developers in the next couple of weeks ... " So what up? I shall try to call Gail back tomorrow... which of us is misinformed? Any help would be appreciated......... -----------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 175 Thu Sep 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:30 EDT FAIRWEATHER - Why not just use the SDMA processor to playback sampled sounds? The BCS press releases in the latest issue of AEO state the Falcon030's DSP as "96 MOPS performance at 32 MHz." Is that supposed to be "MIPS"? Also, Atari may want to rethink the "PIM" acronym since that's already used quite a bit in the consumer electronics industry to mean Personal Information Manager (like the Casio B.O.S.S., etc.). If Atari couldn't use the term "Personal Media," then why not something like "Personal Multimedia" or "Personlichemedien" -- Atari's version of Fahrvergnuegen. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 176 Thu Sep 24, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 02:01 EDT First, Direct-to-Disk recording uses the DMA sound system. It doesn't use the DSP. So, you could be doing direct to disk recording while you are using the DSP and then doing MIDI at the same time. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 177 Thu Sep 24, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 02:15 EDT JOHN: What's been said here wasn't clear to me. Will it be possible, like what they can do with the DMA chip in the STE's, to play DSP songs/samples in the background while other operations are running? It would be really cool to play music while using Aladdin on-line on GEnie, or writing a letter, or any other countless things.] Live And Direct [1:06 AM-24/Sep/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 178 Thu Sep 24, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:50 EDT What is the difference between the DMA in the Falcon and the DMA in the STE? What accounts for the new "CD quality" sound? Why can't the STE do direct-to- disk recording? (Besides lack of inputs?) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 179 Thu Sep 24, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 14:42 EDT Rod, Yes, that is possible. (Playing music/whatever while another program is running) As long as the other program doesn't also have to access the DSP (I believe. John, please correct me if I'm wrong) Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 180 Thu Sep 24, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 20:04 EDT Hi... I saw the Falcon at the BCS show (see Cat 11)...anyway, while I am not sure if this is what Bill Rehbock meant about "Atari's answer to Quick Time", there was a Tina Turner demo that had superb music and video running realtime from a FALCON with 14megs of memory...very close to TV... if anyone has seen the TT Star Wars demo, this one is similar only in COLOR and more moving-type action... Since no other mention was made, I would say that there are no extensions to the OS, just like John T.@Atari has said... As far as the use of PIM, the Falcon will be bundled with a Calendar/Appt. type application...therefore even though they are using PIM to mean something else, it could pass as a Personal Information Manager....and why the big fuss over the PIM acronym anyway??? Gee, didn't IT&T name themselves that to confuse AT&T customers?? Anthony ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 181 Thu Sep 24, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 23:33 EDT How about Personal Media System (PMS)? Nah...... might get some flack from some grouchy women every 28 days or so. ;^) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 182 Fri Sep 25, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:14 EDT According to a Newsbytes article, the VGA monitor adaptor will be sold separately for around $10. Is this so, or will it be included in the package (like it SHOULD be! )? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 183 Fri Sep 25, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:08 EDT Dorothy, I am not real sure which booth he was at. He did say he saw a grey computer with yellow keys. Somehow, I missed seeing the real thing, as I was more interested in meeting, in person, friends from the BBS. I'll see one when I get it out of the box. ;-) Bill ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 184 Fri Sep 25, 1992 J.JENKINS19 [Jarius] at 09:08 EDT Steve, Bill mentioned about 3-4 different monitor options that could be used on the Falcon. Since there are soo many different options, they decided to leave the adaptor out and let the user get the one that suits his needs. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 185 Sat Sep 26, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 00:55 EDT DAN: Great! That will be so cool. Perhaps Atari should look into getting music labels to start offering songs in DMA format! Yeah, I know they're much too big for that, but it's a nice wish. Live And Direct [2:06 AM-25/Sep/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 186 Sat Sep 26, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:27 EDT FAIRWEATHER - What accounts for the new CD-quality sound is that the Falcon has a 16-bit ADC and DAC whereas the STE only has an 8-bit DAC. The STE *CAN* do direct-to-disk recording if you have the additional hardware required. There's even a freeware/shareware program that will let you do direct-to-disk recording on ANY ST with an ST Replay sampling cartridge. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 187 Sat Sep 26, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:42 EDT R.Martin22: Many high-end CD and DAT players come with direct Digital outputs. These are direct binary outputs from the digital info on the CD disk. this could be piped directly into the Falcon0x0 (maybe an adapter is required, but it will be very inexpensive), and transferred directly to the HD in the Falcon0x0. I'm not sure what this means for the copyright folks, I think you can do it as long as it's for your own use and you don't _use_ the data in any programs or tunes you may compose on the Falcon0x0. You can also use the Falcon0x0 to directly massage the data with the DSP and output it directly to your amp (instead of going to disk) this will allow you to do digital graphic equalization and surround sound effects with the Falcon0x0. If you _don't_ have a digital output on your CD player, you can still plug it's Analog output into the Falcon0x0, and do the same things (with probably NO difference in quality). Also, I am not sure of this fact, but a CD-ROM player might possibly be able to read the info from a Music CD and you could do a direct copy of it to your hadr drive. Are _you_ getting excited too???? ________________________ \hunderbird 'cause Atari is great! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 188 Sat Sep 26, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 18:56 EDT I just caught Bill Rehbock and the Falcon in a segment of "PC TV Live"! The piece was very positive with Bill describing market targets, showing the new desktop and demoing some of the audio software included with the Falcon -- very impresive. He even plugged Playboy Germany stating they use an Atari DTP package to publish the magazine :-) The moderator gave me the impression he would have liked to have shown more (so do I) but they ran out of time. Bill and the Falcon did a fine job! -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 189 Sat Sep 26, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 19:35 EDT So where can one get "PC TV"? I've never seen any shows like that. Is it on PBS? --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 190 Sat Sep 26, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 20:45 EDT Did anyone explain to Bill that the 486SX chip is NOT a 16bit 486, or did he mention it on the show for th PC emulation slot? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 191 Sat Sep 26, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 21:44 EDT argghh.. I missed the Tv show. I looked through all of our listings and only found one show on PBS about computers. Unfortunately it was some show out of Texas all about PCs.. Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 192 Sat Sep 26, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 22:46 EDT "PC TV" is shown on the MEU (Mind Extension University) cable channel in my area, though I understand some PBS stations pick the show up. I believe one of the PC magazines produces the show. Bill mentioned PC emulation capability was a $150 add on and emphasized it was hardware (not software) emulation -- no 486SX comments as far as I recall. Hmmm, I thought the cheaper 486SX clones like you can buy in the grocery store use a 16 bit bus to the peripherals? -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 193 Sun Sep 27, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 02:11 EDT No Ron, the 486's are all 32bit devices, the SX has the floating point coprocessor disabled, and is sold rated at a lower operating speed. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 194 Sun Sep 27, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 02:49 EDT THUNDERBIRD: I was pretty depressed when you started talking about direct digital outputs since I just bought my first CD player about six months ago and it doesn't have digital outputs, but I've got those analog!!! Yeah, I'm really pumped on the Falcon, especially for taking my CD audio and adding surround, digital eq, and digital processing to it (can you say Stadium effect?). Also, think of the CD quality sound effects you can get from SFX CD's to put in games and apps! Live And Direct [12:22 PM-26/Sep/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 195 Sun Sep 27, 1992 R.LUCKEY [FALCON-MAD!] at 04:58 EDT I was present at both days the Falcon was shown at the BCS (the big official "unveiling" and the ST SIG meeting the next night), and am EXTREMELY enthusiastic about the machine and the possibilities it offers to developers with fertile imaginations. The new hardware *REALLY* expands the capabilities of our favorite computer. The real-time Tina Turner video played off the hard disk was stunning: full motion video in the center of the screen, while selected still images were repeatedly blitted around the border at breakneck speed, while CD quality audio was playing! What a toy! Wowie Zowie! Bill Rehbock mentioned that the audio capabilities of the DSP can be exploited to produce a synthesizer which out-performs the DX-7, and apparently Atari is considering bundling that software (when it is finished) with the Falcon!! And get this: the machine should also be able to be used as a low-cost video phone (!!!), an application that I think Bill said may be ready to show at the next Comdex! For us boring business users, Atari is developing a MS Works type integrated application. It reads Excel files, and lets you do ridicul- ous things like add voice annotations to cells! Nice going, guys! It's obvious to me that with the regular ST software continuing to mature as it is (at THIS point mainly from European developers), and with all the possibilities that the new machine brings I'll have very little to complain about, unless it's that my IBM or Mac buddies who haven't seen what the Falcon can do may THINK my cute little machine is just a toy. Remember, the present Falcon is the *BOTTOM END* of a projected line of new machines. And with the emulation capabilities, if we really need to use DOS or Mac software, we can. No, the whole world isn't going to dump all their clones and Macs and come running to Atari, but I'm sure this new hardware is going to get enough developers excited about working on it that we'll see lots of really great applications coming out in the next year. It has incredible potential. How fully that potential blossoms is going to depend largely on how the marketing is done, on dealer development and maybe on production capabilities, (in my opinion). But regardless of how many OTHER people end up purchasing one, I'm sure the people that DO buy one will have a ball, and I intend to be one of them! Wouldn't it be nice to see these babies really take off? Yeah..... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 196 Sun Sep 27, 1992 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 08:49 EDT Ron, I think the 486sx is the same as the full fledged 486dx without the floating point processor (but still a full 32 bit chip). My guess is that they are mostly chips that failed the fp test and had the appropriate traces curt. Bruce M Kantor ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 197 Sun Sep 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 11:14 EDT Rod: I'm super psyched up about those sound qualities which the Falcon0x0 posesses. I _really_ hope Atari bundles that synth program with the machine because it would really be a boon to sales. I imagine a low-cost velocity sensitive keyboard addon could even be manufactured for say the cartridge port. Then the Falcon0x0 could be a really cool Midi Controller AND snythesizer in one! I want concert and stadium effects for my CD player, and surround sound would be excellent for my TV. A device dedicated to doing this sort of thing would cost an audiophile almost as much as the base Falcon030 itself, so Atari should sell billions and billions (exaggeration) of them if they market the thing correctly (not an exaggeration). ______________________ \hunderbird 'cause I hope my enthusiasm isn't showing _too_ much!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 198 Sun Sep 27, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 11:40 EDT One point I have seen mentioned only briefly, is that memory and hard drive capacity are taxed to the limits doing video and sound recording. What is the story on this? Do we need laser disk storage to do anything with sound and video? The laser eraseable-recordable CD equipment I have seen in Computer Shopper runs about $3000-$5000, and disks about $85. Before I get too excited about the capabilities, I must look at the prices of the gadgets needed to accomplish these things. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 199 Sun Sep 27, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 12:43 EDT That "synth" program used was Cubase 3.1, a bit expensive to bundle ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 200 Sun Sep 27, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 13:12 EDT I was talking COMPUTER, not CPU ;-) I know the 486SX is a 486 sans FPU, but thought the cheap 486SX clones only used 16 bit I/O (video, disk, etc.). Or at least I assumed there was more than just the FPU and extra 8 mHz clock speed to justify the $600 difference in cost. If the FPU is really the only difference, I'm happier than ever to stay away from the clones. During the PCTV showing, after the Falcon demo of the 3D drag and drop GEM desktop, there was a clip describing why Windows really a shell and not a GUI. They went on to state Microsoft expects to fix the problem by 1995 :-) -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 201 Sun Sep 27, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:28 EDT 486SX is 32-bit. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 202 Sun Sep 27, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 13:43 EDT Ok. Here is a question. (or two): I have found the following monitor on clearence at a local Service Merchandise store: Goldstar 1460 plus (GST) 1024 x 768 non-interlace .28 dot pitch 31.5 - 35.5 horiz. 50 - 87 vert. Price: $287.91 So, my questions are: 1: Will this work with Falcon030? 2: In future incarnations? 3: With my current ST (1040)? 4: Is Goldstar a "Good Brand"? 5: Is that a "Good Price"? Immediate help would be appreciated, as clearence merchandise does not usually last long, and they just have one left. Thanks, ----------------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 203 Sun Sep 27, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 15:47 EDT Billy B.------> Lets break it down and look at the Falcon Sound and video.... Sound: ====================================================== Ok. Lets use the best possible built in capabilities. We'll sample a stereo input at 16bit resolution at a 50 Khz speed. 16bits x 2 channels = 32 bits 32bits x 50k samples/sec = 1.6 million bits/sec = 200K bytes/sec = 12 Meg/min Therefore saving a five minute song to your hard disk would require 60 megabytes. This assumes no compression. Doing the actual sampling does not require the DSP. The DSP could be used for real time compression to save space on the disk. Also note that "CD Quality" (14bit/44.1Khz) would only require 46 megabytes (uncompressed). VIDEO ================================================================== OK. One thing to point out. Falcon does NOT have the built in ability to capture any video stuff. It CAN overlay computer graphics over a video source. That type of application is not very memory intensive for your hard disk or for RAM. Lets say you want to dump a True Color animation to video tape. It's a mammoth 3 minute production at 24 frames/sec..... We pick a good resolution to work with (there are a LOT to choose from!): 640 x 200 true color non-interlaced. 65,536 colors will cost you 16 bit for each pixel on the screen. That gets us 640 x 200 x 2(bytes) = 256 Kbytes per screen. 256K x 24 frames/sec x 180 seconds = 1.1 GIGABYTES !!!! Once again, the DSP can do some compression for you, and real animation software won't store whole frames, but just the changes to the frames (I think) which saves a LOT of space. Maybe one of the LEXICORE guys can jump in here someplace with some facts and figures. It looks to be that if you are gonna do any serious sound and graphics, that you best plan on getting a 14meg RAM falcon which would boost the cost around $400, and also get a SyQuest 88 MEG removeable hard drive. Also!!!!!!!!!! I Can't Wait to make my desktop look like a NeXT!!! 640 x 480 x 256 ought to do the trick! 64 TRUE GRAY LEVELS !!!! YEA!!!! I want a FALCON _NOW_ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------>Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 204 Sun Sep 27, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 21:57 EDT Sam, That monitor should work on a Falcon but would only work on the ST in monochrome, horizontal frequency does not go low enough to do ST color. Goldstar made a lot of the Atari monitors. -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 205 Mon Sep 28, 1992 J.COX39 [Jim Cox] at 02:01 EDT Having read only the last 25 messages, I'm not certain if this question has been asked on not so, here I go. According to my local Atari dealer, the chips used for memory are not the standard SIMMs used in P.C.s but,\ a custom package specific to the Falcon. Is this true? If so does anyone know if there will be options to use SIMMs on any future expansion boards? Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 206 Mon Sep 28, 1992 J.GNIEWKOWSK [GE-Lamp ST] at 02:30 EDT Ron, I just missed the Falcon piece (I even taped the Windows-Shell segment for somebody - so I must have _just_ missed it)! Do you know if it is going to be re-run? John E. Gniewkowski GEnieLamp ST Co-Editor Sunday, September 27, 1992 -- 8:07:50 pm ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 207 Mon Sep 28, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 03:09 EDT Towns or Bill - Can you comment on Falcon availability in Canada? Sam T, hinted that machines might show up there first. I left a query in the dealer topic as to Canadian dealers not too far from Minnesota, but perhaps one of you could steer me in that direction from here. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 208 Mon Sep 28, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:15 EDT Did anyone happen to record the PC TV show? And while we're on the topic of Falcon stuff on video, did anyone here shoot any camcorder footage of the Falcon030 at the Glendale show? If anyone has either of these, would you be interested in dubbing a copy? AD-VANTAGE - $150!!! Wow! Even better than I thought! (I was expecting a price of AT LEAST $200 and up to $300.) Is $150 an approximate selling price or list price? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 209 Mon Sep 28, 1992 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 07:49 EDT Ron, I think I/O and other periferals are controlled by the bus. I believe that clones use basically 2 standards: the 16 bit AT bus or a 32 bit EISA bus. IBM machines use a 32 bit MCA bus. Also, the EISA bus is compatible with the old 16 bit AT standard. EISA and MCA drive the cost of the computer up significantly. That's why most cheap 486 machines use the sx chip and the AT bus. Bruce M Kantor ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 210 Mon Sep 28, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 12:43 EDT Don't confuse the PC's bus size, and the standard expansion card bus. All those 386DX and 486SX/DX systems are 32bit, have 32bit paths to memory, and the newer ones have direct 32bit disk and video paths too (called localbus). The standard PC addon card bus...ISA...is 8 or 16bit and is around only because so many boards already exist for it. Even the localbus machines use the standard 16bit slot as a starting point, and tack on extra signals to allow full blast operation. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 211 Mon Sep 28, 1992 ESMITH at 12:46 EDT Who will be making the PC emulator.... Will this emulator be a 486sx or 486dx or 386 machine???? Has anyone seen it at work??? -----------Esmith ------------