==================================================================== (C) 1992 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== ************ Topic 20 Thu Aug 13, 1992 STRAMIEL [Atari CEO] at 15:41 EDT Sub: Atari Falcon 030 Computer Discussions on the Atari Falcon 030 Computer, being unveiled at the Duesseldorf Atari Messe August 21-23 in Germany. Be sure to check the CO transcript from the library, file #25262, FALCONCO.LZH 223 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 1 Thu Aug 13, 1992 STRAMIEL [Atari CEO] at 16:00 EDT Thank you to all that attended the conference last night. It was great! We had a wonderful time doing the conference at Atari, and look forward to being online again in about 3 months with you! Thanks to Jeff Williams for doing a terrific job of moderating the very busy evening!! Great job, Jeff!! Once again, here are the specs on the Atari Falcon 030: CPU: Motorola 68030 running at 16Mhz. 32 bit bus Optional 68881 or 68882 FPU RAM: 1, 4, or 14 megs Standard Atari Cartridge Port Motorola 56001 DSP Chip Expansion Bus: Internal direct processor slot for 386SX PC emulation, or other co-processor. Graphics: Super VGA graphics: 640x480 with 256 colors True Color 16 bit mode allowing a display of up to 65,536 colors Accepts external video sync signal to allow high quality genlocking Overscan mode on TV's and ST Color monitors 262,144 colors hardware-assisted horizontal fine scrolling BLiTTER graphics co-processor Sound features: Eight 16 bit audio DMA record and playback channels Stereo 16 bit digital DMA input Stereo 16 bit digital DMA output SDMA sound/DMA coprocessor Standard ports SCSI II port with DMA High speed LocalTalk compatible LAN Connector for analog RGB color (ST or VGA) or composite video RS232C serial port Bidirectional parallel porot MIDI IN/MIDI OUT Stereo microphone input, miniature stereo plug Stereo audio out, miniature stereo plug Two joystick connectors Two enhanced digital/analog controller/light pen connectors Data Storage 1.44 Mbyte floppy disk drive Optional internal IDE hard disk System Software Pre emptive multitasking with adaptive prioritization (MultiTOS) Inter process communication New Desk desktop and eXtensible control panel Multiple window user interface; number of windows limited only by memory or software in use. We see this comuter as exceeding all of the multimedia expectations of the computer buying public. As well as being an exceptional value as a home computer system. Extensive testing with the Atari Falcon 030 has already been done on existing software. We are very pleased with the high degree of compatibility. For instance, PowerNet, a increasingly popular LocalTalk networking solution works fine with no modifications. Calamus SL, PageStream, WordFlair II, Cubase 3.0, STalker 3.0, STeno, Arabesque, and many other well written applications will work perfectly. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 2 Wed Aug 26, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:52 EDT B.GOCKLEY - Apparently, there isn't any news. What a shame! Also, the Bill Rehbock conference is TWO WEEKS from tomorrow. What a shame! Here's a little news since everyone who went to Duesseldorf apparently was mysteriously sucked into oblivion (although maybe that's not such a bad thing since the Tramiels are included! ): According to some people over who went to the AtariMesse, they were told by an Atari rep that MultiTOS would not be available until early 1993. Granted, that could be for the German version of MultiTOS and the English (American) version may be available somewhat earlier (hopefully by mid- October when Sam *SAID* that the machines would start showing up here). Also, they said that the Falcon030 case was the same light grey 1040ST color but with darker keys on the keyboard (they also said the keyboard was more like the TT-style one, which could be a plus even if it isn't seperate!). However, they also said that the lettering on the keys was yellow and I've heard that Atari changed it to white, so maybe these are a 'special' early (i.e. pre-general production) batch. Since PLI has their 'matching black' peripherals ads, it would be a shame for Atari to change the original black (or very dark grey) color of the Falcon030. On a more distressing note, they said that from the looks of things, Atari hasn't changed a bit as far as their attitudes are concerned toward marketing and such. But on a brighter side, they mentioned that a prototype 68040-based Falcon was displayed and that another company has an 040 board for Mega ST's for around 3000DM (around $2000). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 3 Wed Aug 26, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 02:20 EDT Wrong. There was an 040 shown on an STE but it is not for sale, just a demostration of how close TOS 2.06 is to being 040-able ;-) I doubt an 040 Falcon was shown. If so my distributor got no wind of it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 4 Wed Aug 26, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 05:38 EDT I know what the TT is and can do. I guess some of you took my comment that the TT should have been what the Falcon is literally. I haven't been in a closet all this time. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 5 Wed Aug 26, 1992 M.DRYSDALE [Drys] at 06:31 EDT Fercryinoutloud! The Falcon isn't even here yet and people don't want to buy it 'cause they're waiting for the MEGA Falcon. And it was bad enough that they don't want a TT now that the Falcon isn't available yet. Mike, TEAM COMPUTERS BLiTTER = Bit Block Image Transfers ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 6 Wed Aug 26, 1992 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 07:07 EDT Steve, Toys-R-Us did carry the ST line when it first came out. >> Joe Meehan << ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 7 Wed Aug 26, 1992 J.MEEHAN3 [>> Joe M << ] at 07:21 EDT Mike, I won't buy a 486, I want a 686, and I want it yesterday, and oh yea, I want full software support. It's the same all over. >> Joe Meehan << ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 8 Wed Aug 26, 1992 K.CAVAGHAN2 [OakSprings] at 07:38 EDT >B.GOCKLEY [Brian G.] ... >I guess tomorrow night's conference with Bill Rehbock might get a few ansers, >like what about that 386 emulation? See you there! Say what, Brian? I thought the Bill Rehbock conference wasn't until the nineth of September? Kent ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 9 Wed Aug 26, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 11:41 EDT Mike, >>Fercryingoutlout! I agree with your sentiments. There _might_ be a Mega Falcon coming in the future - but probably not if the Falcon isn't a success. Barring something unknown happening, _I_ plan on buying a Falcon. Yes, there might be some things that I wish were different about the Falcon - BUT to put that statement in proper perspective, if I bought a new Corvett, I'm sure there would be things that I wish were different about it too - but the Falcon's pluses waaaaay outweigh any of it's minues...IMO. What happens if Atari comes out with a Mega Falcon? I'll worry about that if/ when it happens. Until then, I'll have all of the Falcon's power and features at my finger-tips....and they'll still have whatever they're currently using. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 10 Wed Aug 26, 1992 B.GOCKLEY [Brian G.] at 18:11 EDT RE: the Rehbock conference; I guess I just WISHED that it was tonight! Re: the news from Dusseldorf; Was that your prototype 040 Jim? And is it true that you can get an 030 into a MegaSTe? Any word on MultiTOS for your Turbo030? Brian D Gockley ST Informer /exit ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 11 Wed Aug 26, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 18:21 EDT Ben.. not any time soon. We have a NUMBER of other higher priority items on our list before we get to TOS upgrades again. Wish I had a better answer, but I am afraid things are the way they are.. Jason.. When I say personal media type applications, I mean applications that involve sound and graphics, etc. As for timeframe for detachable keyboard versions of Falcon030.. I have no idea. For now, what you see is what will be available soon. Sheldon.. You can only have one daughterboard for RAM. And those boards are populated with RAM chips of different sizes for different RAM configurations. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 12 Wed Aug 26, 1992 J.KUDRON [Jim~ST Sysop] at 20:34 EDT Messages #2-187 have been archived and are in the library-File #25426 Jim Kudron 26Aug92 ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 13 Wed Aug 26, 1992 D.GLISH [DAVE GLISH] at 20:47 EDT Someone asked about taking the memory board and putting sockets on it to allow one to increase the RAM as finances permit. I'm no teckie, but I doubt that if they had to use a special board, there would be enough room to add sockets. I really wish they would have used standard SIMMs. Maybe on the MegaFalcon. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 14 Wed Aug 26, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 20:47 EDT This may be off topic, but the answer may be Falcon related..... Has there been an Atari Explorer Online in the last two or three weeks? Anybody know what happened to it? -------------------------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 15 Wed Aug 26, 1992 L.ROCHA1 [Lou (Sysop)] at 21:01 EDT Sam, AEO posted they would be absent for two issues and will return August 29. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 16 Wed Aug 26, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:09 EDT Mike, I guess it must be Bit bLock image Transfer... Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 17 Wed Aug 26, 1992 J.BUDIL [Jonathan] at 23:39 EDT TJ, Dorothy, thanks for the Gadgets update. Dave and Eric have my sympathies; I'm glad the worst is over. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 18 Thu Aug 27, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:48 EDT Dave, Just from looking at all the specs on the thing I can't see how they could possible fit SIMMs in there too.:-) I wouldn't worry about it until they release the prices on the RAM (along with a computer to use it with). It's probable not going to cost much more, especially if it is just a blank board. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 19 Thu Aug 27, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 03:22 EDT They were trying to do something _more_ than just provide ram. The creative possibilities using the scheme they came up with are great. If they used SIIMs there wouldn't be the ability to do a memory/video addon, etc, etc. This is a much more flexible solution. _And_ all the big dealers...Toad, L+Y, etc...will be able to do thier OWN memory upgrade boards cheaply, giving them good margins and you a lower price. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 20 Thu Aug 27, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:41 EDT > Toys-R-Us did carry the ST line when it first came out. > >>> Joe Meehan << J.MEEHAN3 - Yikes!!! However, it *IS* a national chain of stores, isn't it? Having Atari hardware being sold by *SOMEONE* is better than having it sold by *NO ONE*. I was thinking that maybe they got the drives for some reason from the Lechmere down the street when it went out of business. B.GOCKLEY - The 'news' from Duesseldorf was that there was a prototype 040- based Falcon there and that there was also a "60MHz" 040 board for the Mega ST shown (although the "60MHz" may be some kind of 'semi-60MHz' since the fastest 040's available now are, I believe, 40MHz-rated). Supposedly, MultiTOS will only be available on the Falcon at first and a TT030 version (which may also run on Turbo030 and SST boards) of MultiTOS would be available later. Also, MultiTOS for the TT030 will apparently be *ENTIRELY* disk-based rather than part ROM, part disk as on the Falcon (at least that's what one of the Atari reps at the show reportedly said) and MultiTOS may *NEVER* be available for 68000-based machines. Okay, more questions... 1. How good is the 'real' sound quality of the Falcon030? By this, I mean to ask if it picks up all the nasty interference and such like the '8-bit stereo DMA sound engine' in the STE and TT does. Also, there's lots of other technical audio stuff besides the "16-bit, up to 50kHz sample rate" specs that dictate whether it is truly "better-than-CD-quality." Cheap components can easily ruin an otherwise good sound system. And please nobody give any "well, it sounded at least as good as a CD player to me" answers to this unless you really know what you're talking about. This issue is of *GREAT* concern to musicians interested in direct-to-disk and digital audio applications of the Falcon030. If you still need to get an external device to do even semi-pro-quality digital audio on it, that's an entirely different thing than having those abilities built-in. 2. Is the DSP port 16-bit or 24-bit or what? Also, does the DSP port have a 1MHz throughput rate? In other words, does it handle up to 16,000,000 or up to 24,000,000 bits/sec.? Or does it only handle up to 8,000,000 bits/sec.? 3. Is the case black (dark grey) with white lettering on the keys or not? 4. Will Atari be releasing Falcon030 press releases around the time of the BCS show to any major news organisations/etc. or will they continue to keep word of their products as silent as possible? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 21 Thu Aug 27, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 11:04 EDT There was a wirewrap prototype of a 33Mhz 040 being displayed. It was a curiosity done to show it could be done. There is no intention to try and make them. There are aspects of the ST architecture that makes using the 040's fastest features not possible. The Falcon on the other hand is designed with an eye toward 040-ability. I'd expect an 040 for it once they start selling a bunch. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 22 Thu Aug 27, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 20:22 EDT How is the memory boards on the Falcon laid out and what kind of Dram is used? Is the board 'one size fits all' and you just put the desired amount of ram on it? What kind of drams are used? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 23 Thu Aug 27, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 22:21 EDT As I understand it, Falcon030 memory boards are just memory chips on a board with a connector. No other parts. I'm sure some creative third party type person will put out a board with 4 simm sockets: put in four 1 meg simms, get 4 meg-o-ram... get a pay raise.... pull out the four simms.... put in four 4 meg simms, get 16(14) meg-o-ram... at least it sounds easy. One question..... how much trouble will it be to get inside the thing and put in my hard drive and RAM board??? John? --------------->Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 24 Thu Aug 27, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:30 EDT Actually a board with 32 sockets that can accept either 8 256Kx4 DIP Drams 80ns _or_ 8 1Megx4 DIP Drams 80ns _or_ 32 1Megx4 DIP Drams 80ns...that gives you 1, 4, or 16 (14) Megs of ram, all on one board, just plug in the chips. Height is the prime physical constrain t here, the board must fit UNDER the sheilding, and SIMMs will probably be too high. it all depends on what the final production sheiling is like. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 25 Fri Aug 28, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 00:10 EDT Attention: Sam-Rapp The _reason_ Atari has to use a separate RAM board with soldered on chips is _because_ there is _no_room_ for SIMMS. -Tom ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 26 Fri Aug 28, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 22:04 EDT So is the Atari standard RAM board socketed, or are the chips soldered on? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 27 Sat Aug 29, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:03 EDT According to some people on the Internet, the black (dark grey) color of the Falcon030 has been nixed and they will be the standard light-grey color as the 1040 except with darker keys on the keyboard (don't know about the yellow lettering, though). Supposedly, this was done, at least in part, to keep color coordination with normal ST peripherals. They also said the Falcon030 'badges' are very colorful (well, actually they said "colourful" ), though I don't what that means exactly (i.e. if it's good or bad). I hope the black color hasn't really been dropped because I, for one, love the color of the NeXT and the full-blown CDTV system. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 28 Sat Aug 29, 1992 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 11:04 EDT Steve, I too hope the black case ala the Portfolio and Lynx is still a go. However I even more fervently hope that the yellow letters are nixxed and they made a wise investment in getting the idiot who thought of that scheme a needed eye exam, or at the very least they don't let him or her dress themselves. ;-) Wayne ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 29 Sat Aug 29, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 11:58 EDT Jim Allen - Yeah, but I wonder if even adding sockets to the design will make the board to large to fit. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 30 Sat Aug 29, 1992 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 18:22 EDT >>According to some people on the Internet, the black (dark grey) color of the Falcon030 has been nixed and they will be the standard light-grey color as the 1040 except with darker keys on the keyboard (don't know about the yellow lettering, though). Supposedly, this was done, at least in part, to keep color coordination with normal ST peripherals. Gosh, I'd like a multi-shade computer setup! One grey item, one black, one dark grey...just no "flesh-colored" items! mike.k ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 31 Sat Aug 29, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 19:14 EDT I think the smart thing would be to mimick an HP LJ ram board. It comes with 4Megs soldered on...SMD chips...at the front of the board, to clear the keyboard at its lowest, then three rows of eight sockets for another 12Megs of DIP drams for the user to plug in as needed. That way you can increase in steps of 4Meg as the budget alows. I'm sure of few things, but one thing I am sure of, when the Falcons start shipping, 3rd party's will have lots of innovative goodies for them. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 32 Sun Aug 30, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:14 EDT You know, it's getting pretty damn pitiful around here. Here Atari has its first public showing of their new computer and still a week later not a worthwhile morsel of information from Atari concerning the show and their own news service (AEO) conveniently went on vacation during perhaps the most interesting week for Atari in years. Did the show suck that badly or aren't Atari's employees back yet because the company couldn't afford to fly them back??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 33 Sun Aug 30, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:23 EDT Even the enthusiasm of us users is waning. Compare the number of posts here per day 1 week ago with today... it's about 1/4 - 1/3 what it was. Most of them are now not really falcon related. We would love to hear all of the events which transpired across the great ocean, but have been stood up at the alter. I want a Falcon too. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 34 Sun Aug 30, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 11:43 EDT Bob B. or J.Towns: Can you please give us an update on the FCC approval status of the Falcon? Thanks. Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 35 Sun Aug 30, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 12:00 EDT Steve and Thunderbird, If you want information about Duesseldorf, you really should check out Category 11, Topic 17. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 36 Sun Aug 30, 1992 L.ROCHA1 [Lou (Sysop)] at 12:12 EDT Steve and Thunderbird, Atari Mess reports are found in CAT 11, TOPic 17. There were 11 new messages there when I logged on this morning. If you are using Aladdin, use the Mark/Reply Old Topics and set 11/17 to NEW. If you are using other software, use the GEnie command SET 11 and then READ 17 NEW. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 37 Sun Aug 30, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 14:35 EDT Jim, With 32 bit ram don't you have to have 1,4,or 16meg... you know... 32 chips of each varity! 256k,1meg,and 4meg? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 38 Sun Aug 30, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 20:38 EDT If you are using 256Kx4 or 1Megx4...or soon 4Megx4...chips, all you need is 8. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 39 Sun Aug 30, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 22:02 EDT All this technical chatter is fun, but there's been one VERY important item about the Falcon that hasn't been addressed yet. WHAT ABOUT "BOB"? Is the sanctified smugness of "Bob" still in the character set? If he isn't, I won't be able to trust the Falcon at all. No sirree. No pipe, no purchase. --CAO, unofficial Big Juju of the Screaming Motorola Clench (and sole member) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 40 Sun Aug 30, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:30 EDT Is there any chance that the infamous gruesome Atari ST font has been replaced with something contemporary???? Since GEM has been given a makeover, a new wardrobe wouldn't be omitted, now would it? _____________________ \hunderbird P.S. 'cause I'm not the only one who hates this font! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 41 Mon Aug 31, 1992 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 00:57 EDT What will the resolution be on a Falcon, with a mono and a color monitor. Will we have to get a multisynch color monitor for it to work or will it work with a 1224 (the older model of the Atari color monitor) but with much better color resolution? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 42 Mon Aug 31, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 01:19 EDT As I understand it, the SC1224 will show all rez's except ST High and the 640x480 non-interlaced mode. ST High requires an SM124/5. A good multisync will let you see them all, except ST High. ST High feeds a seperate MONO signal on the video connector. The 640x480x2 color mode would be the equivalent on the multisync. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 43 Mon Aug 31, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 01:40 EDT ORANGE! The Falcon needs to be orange!...and all peripherals need to be purple - to match the keyboard letters. And the function keys have to be green. Live And Direct [9:41 PM-30/Aug/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 44 Mon Aug 31, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 02:22 EDT I think Towns indicated that ST High would be interlaced on the SC1224. It would work the same though. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 45 Mon Aug 31, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 03:10 EDT Thunderbird, If you use Warp 9, you can have any mono-spaced, system-sized font you want. I'll also anticipate your response and admit that, yes, Warp 9 is a commercial program and you shouldn't have to actually _pay_ for something you feel you deserve for free. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 46 Mon Aug 31, 1992 J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 03:26 EDT "Gruesome Atari ST font????" -- whaddya mean?? I LOVE this font. Nice, big, black (on mono) and bold. I'm not kidding, I think this font has it hands down over PCs and Macs and it's one of the reasons I stay in the Atari platform!! Besides, with CodeHead's Warp 9, you can customize your fonts all you want if you don't like Atari's own. - Jason Saffer Hercules, California Sunday, August 30, 1992 10:14 pm ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 47 Mon Aug 31, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 06:05 EDT J.EIDSVOOG1 - I should know since *I* started that topic. There wasn't anything there when I posted that last message, though. J.ALLEN27 - No, ST High (640x400) is supported on the SC1224/SC1435 in interlaced mode (and up to 65,536 colors). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 48 Mon Aug 31, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 06:09 EDT CodeHead: Warp 9 is cool. However, the more ACC's AUTO PGRS, etc, etc, etc you have, the more PC-like your ST becomes. That is all. _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 49 Mon Aug 31, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 08:13 EDT Thunderbird, interesting theory. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 50 Mon Aug 31, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 12:50 EDT Thunderbird, That's right, the more ACCs and AUTO programs you have, the more PC-like your ST becomes...and the more Mac-like, and the more Amiga-like, Unix- like, and just-about-any-other-computer-like because that's the way computers work. I'm certainly glad the Atari works in a similar fashion, allowing user expansion through modularity. The alternative would be to have a major portion of the machine's resources filled with someone else's idea of what you want installed. I prefer to decide those things for myself. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 51 Mon Aug 31, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 19:48 EDT Please see Bill Rehbock's message and Nathan's message's in the Show Category. They posted show reports in that category. Since this Topic is for the Falcon030 specific info, this topic should be kept to that topic. For show reports and discussion of the Atari Messe, you should check out Category 11. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 52 Mon Aug 31, 1992 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 20:57 EDT Thunderbird... HUH??? The more ACC's, AUTO PGMS, etc that you run the more the ST is like a PC???? I'd give my left arm, both legs, and a few unmentionables if my 486-based PC could even come close to running all of the really nifty DAs and TSRs that the ST/TT does. And I'll tell you something else too, not only are all of these programs extremely handy to have and use, but they're easy to load and run as well. Every time I add some new TSR to the PC I have to run rings around autoexec.bat and config.sys files, not to mention contention problems with other programs, reconfiguring EMM, etc. etc. etc. GEEZE!!!! John T. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 53 Mon Aug 31, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 21:59 EDT R.MARTIN22 - Thank you for showing the case-color debate for what it is: a huge farce. I'll be happy with the Falcon in whatever case color it arrives in. For the record, though, I'll cast my (moot) vote for off-black case, ST-colored keys and lettering. Should the machine come in light grey, however, there's always spraypaint. I'm also working on a way to squeeze everything into my 1450XLD's case, though the rear ports are proving to be a problem. S.JOHNSON10 - Note that the 640 x 400 Falcon modes are not the same from a hardware standpoint as ST High Res, which, as Jim points out, is fed by a different pin on the monitor jack. While newer, well-written applications (there's that phrase again) should be resolution independent, some older stuff might only run in ST High (if indeed it runs at all). Towns _did_ say that the Falcon will run ST High through interlacing, though, so perhaps the monochrome leads have been modified (though it still is supposed to work with the SM124). Which leads me to some questions for either Jim or Towns or Bill. Regarding the SC1224, what sort of adapter will be needed for the Falcon, and will it be available in October (when I buy mine)? Or will a homemade cable be a workable alternative? While a new monitor purchase seems inevitable, I'd rather use the funds for buying some Falcon-specific games and such... Also, will the amount of flicker on the SC1224 in 640 x 400 be comparable to the amount on an Amiga? I remember seeing one a while back, and it really wasn't all _that_ bad, though for DTP and writing I'll keep my SM124 around for the nonce. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 54 Mon Aug 31, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:11 EDT J.EIDSVOOG1: I hope your tone is jovial and you are just making your point. I didn't see any smileys in your message, so I am left wondering. I do not mean to offend, so please excuse me if I have. Now, to make my point: I happen to agree with you 100% that the ST should remain expandable and allow for customization of the user interface. However, I do not think that the customization should be the function of several many add on extra programs which I must care and feed and soothe when they have 'fights' with one another. The extensible control panel is a step in the right direction. My complaint about the ST fonts is not unwarranted. Look at it! Ackkk! Especially in monochrome. A whole lot more could be done with an 8x16 matrix (and has). The pixels seem to be 'doubled' up, to emulate the font and aspect ratio of the 640x200 mode. Why? Place it next to a Mac, or a PC with windoze. You get the point. It is just a very plain font. Functional. The font is in ROM, and is utterly unchangeable in an out-of-the-box ST system. This is a serious oversight, as even the earliest Macs had installable fonts and other features which are just now being added to GEM. There will always be programs to super-enhance your system. This is not a bad thing. It is good. However, the more customization a person does, the more chance he/she has of configuring something wrong. Plus, the more apt the person is to suffering confusion or error when using another's system. This is what I mean by PC-like. Certain preferences really should be 'built- in'. That is all. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 55 Mon Aug 31, 1992 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 23:12 EDT John Townsend (or anyone else from Atari), How about some nice GIFs showing the Falcon close up. I'd also love to see some screen shots of the new TOS 4.0. How about it? - Terry - ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 56 Mon Aug 31, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:55 EDT ATARI.. MR. TOWNS, Forgive thirsty and parched patrons for our crankyness! We have been dreaming of cooling waters with class "B" TT030's floating by our way in large ATARI shipping crates.. Our screens filled with scalable rotatable FSMGDOS fonts complete with jealous lears from PC owners peeking over our shoulders.. The shipping crates have all sunk, the FSMGDOS boxes never looked quite right to ATARI marketing.. they never got shipped! OH ATARI, fill our empty cups with the cool, cool waters of truth, give us all the strength to wait on your final promise. May the FALCON be with you, ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 57 Tue Sep 01, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:00 EDT How bout some specifics on the D2D program im hearing about, and the sound in general (what is the oversampling rate, who made the converters etc..) I work for Guitar Center and we are selling Atari computers like crazy! (for a music store).. I am VERY anxiously awaiting any propaganda you guys get out (that video would be great!!) and some glossys of the specs... thanks in advance.. Curt p.s. who would I talk to at Atari when I call? I never know who to ask for anymore!! (I know my manager had a message from/to Bob Brodie, but i didn't think he dealt with the dealers) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 58 Tue Sep 01, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:23 EDT There is some kind of adapter needed to connect to the Falcon video connector. I know there is one for VGA monitors, with a standard VGA board connector on it...any PC compatible cable for you monitor should then work. On the SC1224, I'm not sure if the adapter works for it _and_ the SM124 or if the SM124 needs a seperate one. They put a really neat feature in, some monitor decode inputs on the video connector, so the unit knows what kind of monitor is connected. Like color Macs have. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 59 Tue Sep 01, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 00:39 EDT Terry, how about. GIF files created with the Falcon? Lexicor has files that display in the Falcon. We will even have them in the new Lexicor magazine. PHOTOREAL! 24bit files. Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 60 Tue Sep 01, 1992 D.GROSS1 [Dave G.] at 00:49 EDT Codehead, What are the advantages to Warp 9 compared to TURBO ST? Do have a 'special' offer to intice a switch??? I feel the need for speed... Dave Gross DIGITRAX STUDIOS ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 61 Tue Sep 01, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 01:15 EDT How's Warp 9 work out on the new Falcon with it's multitude of displays? Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 62 Tue Sep 01, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 01:28 EDT I love the system font and every ACC and Auto Folder program I run. I run alot of them. I don't have any problems with them. And I don't want Atari to build them in. I like to pick and choose the ones I want loaded in any one session. I want to make my own choices/decisions, I don't want some Corporate programmer to make them for me. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 63 Tue Sep 01, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 06:08 EDT S.DANUSER - Atari better include the adaptor(s) WITH the machine. B.REHBOCK (or anyone at Atari) - Is it true that the Falcon030's 16-bit digital recording/playback is limited to the same 6.25kHz, 12.5kHz, 25kHz, or 50kHz sample rates that the STE's 8-bit digital audio has? Please tell me this isn't so because it severely limits its usefulness without more expensive add-on's to bypass this limitation. Also, I'm still a little puzzled about graphics resolutions. According to John's list, it says that "there are compatibility modes for ST Low, ST Medium, and ST High on both VGA monitors and SC1224 monitors." That means that VGA monitors can display 320x200, 640x200, and 640x400 resolutions in 16, 4, and 2(mono) colors out of 4096, respectively. However, the list only lists 320x240, 320x480, 640x240, and 640x480 as VGA resolutions. So, are the 320x200, 320x400, 640x200, and 640x400 resolutions in 4, 16, 256, and 64K colors also displayable on a VGA monitor and, if so, are the 320x400 and 640x400 resolutions still interlaced (except maybe the 16-bit 640x400 mode which may not be displayable)? In other words, would I be able to use the 320x200 and 640x200 true color modes on a VGA monitor or will they only work on a TV or ST RGB monitor? And if the 320x400 and 640x400 true color modes (maybe only up to 256 colors for 640x400) are displayable on a VGA monitor, are they still interlaced? Or are *NONE* of the 'TV/SC1224' 4/16/256/64K color modes available on a VGA monitor (other than those that would fall into the ST "compatibility modes")? Another graphics question... Do the 16-bit color modes have an extra bit for green in order to display 65,536 colors with that extra bit being taken away when the 15-bit, 32,768-color overlay mode is used? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 64 Tue Sep 01, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 06:13 EDT You people still misunderstand me. I don't want a set of fonts 'built-in' the computer. I want the ability to change fonts 'built-in' to the computer. It Really should be there in this day and age, yet I have to buy one program or another to do it! _______________________ /hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 65 Tue Sep 01, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 06:45 EDT Is "SUTRA" really to be the "MS-Works" of the new Atari Platform?? Ralph @ STReport International Online Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 66 Tue Sep 01, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:51 EDT Tbird, I'm not stuck with the ST font. I use Warp 9. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 67 Tue Sep 01, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 18:57 EDT I will see what I can do, Terry. Gregg.. From what I can tell, Warp9 doesn't work on the Falcon030. But..(please listen to this part ;-) that isn't CodeHead's fault. There are some SERIOUS differences to how the VDI and the new video hardware is setup for the Falcon030. Without a doubt, I am sure that Charles and John will have it up doing True Color at blindly fast speeds a day or two after they get ahold of their Falcon030 ;-) Steve.. Hmm, lots of stuff that's hard to read. Let me try to clear this up: 1. a VGA monitor can do ST Low (320x200, 16 colors), ST Medium (640x200, 4 colors), and ST High (640x400, 2 colors ). 2. I didn't include the compatibility modes on the list. They are done separately. 3. 320x480 and 320x240 are the two possible true color modes on the Falcon030. For those with Falcon030, this means 40 column, line doubling off, true color and 80 column, line doubling on, true color. 4. You can't interlace a VGA monitor. 5. I don't understand what you mean by *NONE* of the TV modes being available on the VGA monitor. 6. When you use the overlay bit, you get 32K of colors. When you don't use the overlay bit, you get 65K of colors. Clearer? Ralph.. I won't comment on ST Sutra. That is Bill's baby and I will allow him to comment or not comment on it. (BTW.. It doesn't have much to do with Falcon ;-) -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 68 Tue Sep 01, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 19:05 EDT That is good news, John T. :-) I couldn't do without my warp speed nor numerous other things. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 69 Tue Sep 01, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 20:05 EDT Arghhh!!!!!!! Let's cut the tippie tosey around the rezez game. Will this Falcon do 640x480 (in any form) in 65535 colors on a VGA monitor? Or just a TV/SC1224 type of monitor. Why does it seem too hard to say -- yes, or no? If anyone can officially answer this I could rest much easier. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 70 Tue Sep 01, 1992 J.YEGERLEHNE at 20:22 EDT S.Johnson10 - What's wrong with 50kHz sampling rate? That's fast enough not to alias anything above 25 kHz, which is above the range of human ears, anyway. Jim ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 71 Tue Sep 01, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:36 EDT I have the solution: Warp 9 should be bundled with every ST/TT/Falcon sold. Users get a 'standard' set of customizations. John gets nice fat royalty checks. What do you think? And while on the subject of Resolutions: Let's get this straight once and for all: Will 640x480x65535 or 640x480x32767 work on a VGA monitor? Will 640x400x65535 or 640x400x32767 work with overscan on a TV/SC1224? I understand that overscan is 'simulated' on a VGA monitor. How is this done? Perhaps if someone would care to explain what exactly makes a VGA monitor so much different than a TV/SC1224, I would be able to translate it into a guide for monitor selection on the Falcon. Don't be afraid of techno- jargon. I understand quite a bit of it. I could be wrong, but it would seem that the VGA monitor has some sort of interface circuitry built-in that conditions/processes signals from the computer and generates the necessary RGB signals for the electron gun(s) to display with. This seems like the way bass-ackwards IBM would reverse- engineer a monitor... put the smarts of the video hardware in the monitor, and feed it only these certain prescribed values. This way, when a new 'standard' comes out, you have to buy a nifty new monitor (that only works with this new 'standard') (Notice how VGA monitors are almost but not quite exactly incompatable with broadcast TV. Makes you wonder how much a VGA card with R/F out for multimedia would cost...) ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 72 Tue Sep 01, 1992 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 23:04 EDT Ringo, How does one get "the new Lexicor magazine?" Sounds interesting... -----8<----- Thunderbird, Obviously you want your OS on disk, and I for one am grateful we have TOS in ROM! I don't WANT programs to be able to actually physically change my operating system, nor do I want the delays that come with loading OS from disk. - Terry - ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 73 Wed Sep 02, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 00:04 EDT 50KHz won't be a problem because sample rate conversion can be done quickly (to & from 44.1KHz or 48KHz) when the data needs to be in a format right for digital i/o to/from DAT. Kind of how samples in the EPS16+ can be at any rate from 6.25Khz to 44.6KHz, yet the playback rate can be ~30KHz, 44.6KHz, or 78KHz. The conversion is done on the fly. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 74 Wed Sep 02, 1992 T.GIRSCH [T.J.] at 00:52 EDT Thunderbird - I admit I do not understand you. From what _I_ get from your messages, it seems you want to either substitute the built-in font with joe-font of your choice (there are any number of programs which do this, so I doubt that's it), or else you want to PERMANENTLY reprogram the 'built-in' fonts. The latter you can't do, because those fonts are in ROM (emphasise READ ONLY memory). Without fonts in ROM your computer can't convey a whole lot of messages. Reply in E-mail before we get spanked by the TOPcops. (Didn't that used to be a really bad tabloid show?!?) I'm curious as to what you "mean." -TJ P.S. Terry - MS-DOS machines have their OS on disk, but the fonts are still in ROM. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 75 Wed Sep 02, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 01:00 EDT With the MMU on in the 030 they can protect the ram part of the OS, so it's as good as in rom, from a multitasking point of veiw. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 76 Wed Sep 02, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:02 EDT B.REHBOCK - Any comment(s) on why the original black color was nixed? Was it to keep color coordination with existing peripherals as has been suggested? Personally, I *REALLY* wanted a black case because I've always loved the look of the NeXT and even the CDTV with matching black keyboard/etc. Also, is it the same ST keyboard with just different colors or has the keyboard been changed to feel more like the MSTE/TT keyboards as has also been suggested? I also found the following info for some of you techies out there: The Falcon030's custom chips are: VIDEL - video controller (controls overscan, overlay, true color, etc.) COMBEL - system controller (I guess like the ST's GLU?) which also includes the BLiTTER SDMA - sound DMA controller including matrix switching (see below) And then there's also the keyboard controller which has been improved to handle high resolution mice. Besides the custom processors, there are also, of course, the 68030, 56001 DSP, and CODEC (which includes the 16-bit ADC and DAC). Onto video!!! The 16-bit/15-bit overlay mode has a bit format of RRRRRGGGGGXBBBBB whereby the 'X' bit is an overlay bit in 15-bit (32,768 color) mode and an extra green bit in 16-bit (65,536 color) mode. Apparently, the 16-bit mode is called the "slideshow" mode and is not supported by the VDI. The pinout of the video connector (DB19 Male) is: Pin Signal Pin Signal 1 Red 11 GND 2 Green 12 Composite Sync/Video 3 Blue 13 Horizontal Sync 4 Mono/Overlay 14 Vertical Sync 5 GND 15 External Clock Input 6 Red GND 16 External Sync Enable 7 Green GND 17 +12V 8 Blue GND 18 M1 9 Audio Out 19 M0 10 GND Onto sound/DSP!!! Concerning audio and DSP, there is a matrix 'exchange' that's set up sorta like this: Source devices EXT INPUT ---*------*------*------* CHANNEL | | | | | | | | DSP ---*------*------*------* TRANSMIT | | | | | | | | ADC ---*------*------*------* | | | | | | | | DMA ---*------*------*------* PLAYBACK | | | | DMA DAC DSP EXT OUTPUT RECORD RECEIVE CHANNEL Receiving Devices Any source device can be routed to any or all of the receiving devices. Although I don't really understand it, the DSP can be 'tristated' from the matrix (what does that mean exactly?). The pinout of the DSP port (DB26 Female) is: Pin Signal Pin Signal 1 GP0 14 GND 2 GP1 15 SRD 3 GP2 16 GND 4 P_DATA 17 +12V 5 P_CLK 18 GND 6 P_SYNC 19 R_DATA 7 Not connected 20 R_CLK 8 GND 21 R_SYNC 9 +12V 22 EXT_INT 10 GND 23 STD 11 SC0 24 SCK 12 SC1 25 GND 13 SC2 26 EXCLK And some miscellaneous tidbits: - There's about 31 or so TOS calls for DSP functions. - TOS will allow the sound system to be 'locked' from use for other applications. - There are 8-bit stereo, 16-bit stereo, and 8-bit mono record/playback modes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 77 Wed Sep 02, 1992 B.KING8 [Brien King] at 01:21 EDT Thunderbird - I believe the reasoning behind it is that VGA monitors are TTL (I.e. Digital) while the TV and SC1224 are Analog devices. Brien King ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 78 Wed Sep 02, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 04:01 EDT TOWNS - I was afraid it wouldn't be clear enough. But now you're confusing the hell out of me? What I mean is - for example, can you display 640x400 with 256 colors on a VGA monitor? All that was said was that you can display the "ST compatible modes" (320x200x16, 640x200x4, and 640x400x2) on a VGA monitor. Since the VGA monitor can do that and go as high as 640x480x256 on its own, I want to know if you can also do 320x200, 640x200, and 640x400 in 256 colors on a VGA monitor and even, since the VGA monitor can handle the 320x480 16-bit mode, if a VGA monitor can display 320x200, 320x400 and/or 640x200 in 16-bit mode. Can it? K.HOUSER - 640x480x65,536 is supposedly too much bandwidth for the Falcon030 (and apparently even many VGA monitors) to handle. It's been said that a VGA monitor can do 320x480x65,536 and I'm trying to find out if the Falcon030 can also display 65,536 colors in 320x200 and up to 640x200 *on a VGA monitor*. I have some technical programming info on the Falcon030 and its new TOS and even that doesn't really say. Apparently, to tell TOS which resolution you want, you first specify which mode you want (ST mode, overscan, PAL, VGA, TV), then whether you want 80 or 40 columns (640 or 320 pixels wide), and then the number of bitplanes to use (16, 8, 4, 2, or 1). I'm still trying to figure out what EVERYTHING is that can be displayed on a VGA monitor. In other words, if I want to edit a 320x200 screen with 65,536 colors (actually 64,000 unless it's overscanned and 16- bit graphics are still available in overscan mode), can I use a VGA monitor? J.YEGERLEHNE - What's wrong with 50kHz is that it's more than you need and therefore wasted space and 25kHz is too low, so ideally you'd want something in between (somewhere between at LEAST 32kHz and up to CD-quality 44.1kHz). Since CD-quality is high enough, 50kHz would be a waste of about 12% of space in which to store the sample. That's what I'm bitching about. I also wish the Falcon030 had built-in anti-aliasing filters for lower sample rates, unless it does and I just don't know about it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 79 Wed Sep 02, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 04:47 EDT Dave Gross, There is an entire topic devoted to Warp 9 in Category 32, Topic 31. There you'll find information about the advantages of Warp 9 and our special trade-in offers. There are also press releases in the Library. Gregg Anderson, We are so far unable to test Warp 9 with any of the Falcon display modes. Thunderbird, Years ago, ST-Log magazine released a program called FontTricks, written by Charles F. Johnson. It has since been improved into FontTricks II which is included on our CodeHead Utilities disk. This same technology was added to Warp 9. Anyway, the original FontTricks may still be available in the library here or through other PD channels. I realize this is still not "built in" to the computer, but it does satisfy your other requirement...it's free. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 80 Wed Sep 02, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:47 EDT Brien, VGA monitors are analog. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 81 Wed Sep 02, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:55 EDT OUTRIDER & T.J. Maybe rather than try and explain what I was saying before, I think if I told you what I like and don't like in TOS, we will see that we really see eye-to-eye, in many ways. First, TOS in ROM is awesome. It cuts down on loading time because it's there instantly. You don't even need a drive connected to boot up. I am a programmer and I write programs which access the hardware directly, because I build hardware 'devices' and such things which connect to the ST in various ways. Rebooting is a way of life when you mess with the hardware, so FAST booting is essential. There are numerour other advantages to the ROM OS, but you get the main point. Because waiting the extra 7 or 8 seconds can seem like YEARS when rebooting to test a new idea after a crash or something, an absolute MINIMUM of extraneous programs, accessories, and files loaded during boot up is par for the course. So... I really don't have the patience to watch lots of utilities load 30 or 40 times a night. So, even though these programs are useful, and fulfill my need as far as changing the font is concerned (and other useful things). I really must make due without them. Perhaps I should resurrect my designs for a cartridge port RAMdisk, with battery backup. I wonder if I can boot the hard disk from a driver in a RAMdisk. I don't see why not. So, you see. I love my OS in ROM. I just wish that there were more 'hooks' in it to allow customization without resorting to alternative desktops and other utilities. Having all that stuff loaded defeats the purpose of having the OS in ROM to begin with. Wouldn't it be great to have a "Change Font" selection in the "Set Preferences" Menu???? How about being able to load different printer drivers from the "File" menu? Or even a mouse accelerator somewhere in there. I realize that not all things are the same to everyone, but these are my opinions on what would be nice to have. And John... I'd pay good money for a TOS ROM upgrade if it had these features. Very few things worth having come for free. I believe in hard work, and sometimes things (like software) have to take a back seat to other things (like insurance, rent, phone bills, food, heat, electricity, [Not necessarily in that order]). ;-) ____________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 82 Wed Sep 02, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 22:06 EDT Steve Johnson, ... And since VGA monitors are analog, 640x480xANYTHING would work just fine (i.e. bandwidth doesn't limit this) for any VGA monitor. (Though the Falcon's DIGITAL circuitry can't handle that high a bandwidth.) Analog monitors can display an arbitrarily high number of colors with NO EXTRA WORK for the monitor. And almost all color monitors made these days are analog. Thunderbird, >Will 640x480x65535 or 640x480x32767 work on a VGA monitor? Yes, but unfortunately the Falcon doesn't have that resolution. Outrider, If you're using more than 5 Auto Prgs or accessories, the extra OS load time would be insignificant. Disk OS would only be a real headache for floppy-based users. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 83 Wed Sep 02, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 22:14 EDT Thunderbird, The CodeHead RAMDisk allows you to boot *from the RAMDisk*. Sounds like EXACTLY what you need. Ben White ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 84 Wed Sep 02, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 23:05 EDT What Steve asked? Everyone's assumed that the keyboard will still be the same mush-board we've all either grumbled along with or found alternatives for. Will we get crisper keys? Live And Direct [7:51 PM-2/Sep/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 85 Thu Sep 03, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 01:13 EDT The Falcono030 will not do 640x480 true color on a VGA monitor. It will do 320x480 true color as well as 320x240 true color on a VGA monitor. Thunderbird.. 1. No. 640x480 true color is not available on the VGA monitor. 2. Yes. 3. We show a "window" onto a overscanned screen. In other words, you will still see the borders, but the overscanned image will show up on the screen.. you just won't see the edges. Steve.. 640x480, 256 colors is available on the Falcon030 on a VGA monitor. No, you can't do 640x200, 320x200, or 640x400 in 256 colors. You can only do 640x480, 320x480, 640x240, 320x240 in 256 colors. You have to remember that the ST compatible modes are special and shouldn't be grouped in with the other resolutions. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 86 Thu Sep 03, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 07:42 EDT FYI, Jerry Pournelle will be dropping by at the Glendale show, so knock his socks off, okay? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 87 Thu Sep 03, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 17:34 EDT Jerry Pournelle will going to Glendale *AND* the Amiga bash on the same day. Someone want to make sure he gets V.I.P treatment at Glendale? :) Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 88 Thu Sep 03, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:08 EDT FIFTHCRUSADE: I really need a RAMdisk which has it's own power supply and RAM in it to boot from. When you're hacking A/D converters and other such things into the memory map, you tend to corrupt the internal RAM. It's good to know that booting _can_ be dome from a RAMdisk. Thanks for the info! TOWNS: Thunderbird's list of the Second 10 most frequently asked Questions: 1) Is it possible to run more than one monitor on the FALCON at the same time? Since the ST modes are not part of the new modes, it seems to me that they could be providing a composite video picture while I work on a simultaneous screen in on a VGA monitor. This would really spell doom for toastettes on the Amiga. 2) Will I still have to reboot to change resolutions? It wouild be nice to just switch on the fly and go, or have a program set it's correct resolution and still run GEM. 3) Have the Fonts and Icons changed to take advantage of the new graphics modes? I have heard the Icons and things are 3-D and Color, so they must be different. (How this looks in 1 or 2 plane mode is questionable). A screen-shot of the new TOS would be a suitable explanation (hint hint). 4) Do I need anything expensive to buy to be able to connect my CD player's _DIGITAL_ output (it's a standard fiber connector) to the Falcon? This would be essential for the highest quality sampling of CD's. 5) Is the Parallel port ST Compatible, or IBM Compatible? There are several cool devices which connect to the IBM bidirectional printer port which are nearly impossible to adapt to the ST because it's bidirectional printer port doesn't have as many handshaking lines as the IBM. 6) How long has the 'Falcon' project been underway? (How long from start to finish has the Falcon taken to design?) Just curious. 7) Will appropriate monitor cables be bundled with the Falcon? Will they at least be available? If not, can you post the pinouts? 8) Does the 32 bit data path of the memory cause any incompatability problems, or is it just that the MOVEM.L type instructions don't take as long? How are the stack differences handled, and the supervisor mode differences? 9) Do the new video modes steal cycles from the CPU, or do they run in alternating clock cycles like the ST? (Does the CPU slow down or speed up depending on the video modes?) 10) Is there a price available for the 14 Meg Falcon with Hard Drive _and_ Floating Point chip? What would it cost me? Thanks for your info too! _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 89 Thu Sep 03, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:26 EDT 9) They run in alternating cycles like the ST...which to me is stealing ;-) but I believe the video bandwidth is constant, all modes take as big a bite out of bandwidth. 8) The 32bit path is invisible to SW and HW, it just lets things run faster by read/writing 32bit quantities instead of 16bit at a time. 7) They have an "adapter" that translates from the DB19 video connector to whatever you are going to use, ie: 1 version for multisync, and another version for SC1224/124 monitors. 5) They did something better with the parallel port, I hope it's close enough to PC compatible to allow use of those amazing widgets out there. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 90 Fri Sep 04, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 00:30 EDT According to TOWNS list, the Falcon CAN do 640x480 on a VGA monitor. However, it is limited to 256 colors in that res on VGA. It CAN do 640x400x65535/32767 on the Atari color monitors and a TV(VCR). Sounds FANTASTIC to me. I don't see ANY reason to complain!!!! ------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 91 Fri Sep 04, 1992 J.RICE5 [Joe Rice] at 01:14 EDT Would an ST compatible multisync such as the NEC 3D fall into the VGA category of not being able to display the ST compatibility modes, or would it be able to display all of the ST modes and all of the Falcon modes? (barring I assume 640 x 480 x 65,536) Joe ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 92 Fri Sep 04, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 01:23 EDT PC cards often claim 1024x768 in an interlace mode on a VGA type of monitor. Ok, so if I want 640x480x65535 on the same monitor as the VGA stuff, I need a multisync. Any reccomendations on a multisync which will do the lower rez stuff as well as the higher, has a longer persistance phosphor (less flicker in interlace modes), dot pitch of about .28, and cost less than a baboon's left #$% ???? --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 93 Fri Sep 04, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 01:25 EDT PC cards often claim 1024x768 in an interlace mode on a VGA type of monitor. Ok, so if I want 640x480x65535 on the same monitor as the VGA stuff, I need a multisync. Any reccomendations on a multisync which will do the lower rez stuff as well as the higher, has a longer persistance phosphor (less flicker in interlace modes), dot pitch of about .28, and cost less than a baboon's left #$% ???? --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 94 Fri Sep 04, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:54 EDT TOWNS - Thank you! However, I believe that's kinda stupid. That means if I want 640x480x256, I need a VGA monitor, but if I also want to do anything using a 320x200x256/640x200x65,536/etc., I have to have a different monitor??? What the heck is that? Is there anyway to 'trick' the Falcon into thinking a VGA monitor is an SC1224 so that those modes CAN be displayed on a VGA monitor? D.ENGEL - 4) Yes, you will need some external device to hook up your CD player's digital output to the Falcon's DSP port. Also, sampling CD's is illegal for anything but personal use (and even then it may still be illegal). J.RICE5 - Since there ISN'T even a 640x480x65,536 mode, NO monitor will display it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 95 Fri Sep 04, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:10 EDT K.HOUSER - You can't have 640x480x65,536 on the Falcon030 no matter what kind of monitor you hook up to it. The highest 15/16-bit resolution the Falcon030 has is 320x480 (or 640x400, but that's interlaced). Also, you don't want a longer persistance phoshor monitor unless you don't mind things possibly 'smearing' on the screen (e.g. watching your mouse pointer leave a trail) in non-interlaced modes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 96 Fri Sep 04, 1992 B.WILLIS3 [Bill] at 18:40 EDT Steve, There are numerous CD's available that contain instrument sounds and sound effects that are designed to be sampled. Studios use them. They are legal to sample from, for any purpose, but you pay dearly for them. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 97 Fri Sep 04, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 19:05 EDT HEY, HOLD EVERTHING!! Just what does the MOUSE look like?? I'm tried of having my PC friends laugh at my Star Trek Communicator 60's type mouse!! Best Regards, -Chuck-= ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 98 Fri Sep 04, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 21:23 EDT The mouse for the Falcon030 is the same (or similar in design) to the mouse that the ST has. Personally, I like the mouse. Remember, you can plug in any mouse you like! -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 99 Fri Sep 04, 1992 XXTIMD at 21:42 EDT I doubt it matters what type of monitor you have to display colors. A VGA monitor should beable to show 65k colors since it is analog. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 106 Sat Sep 05, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 01:18 EDT John T, I'm curious as to the 'ST compatible' video modes.. just how are implimented? I'm assuming that Low and Medium Res are no problem as far as the Falcon hardware and a VGA monitor go. However, what about the 600X400 'high res' mode? I'm hearing 'rumors' that mode is implimented by interlacing the display and am hoping that is NOT the case (this on a VGA monitor by the way). Sadly, I've some software that is 'High Res' only and don't want to loose access to it due to sloppy programming (most of it from Europe such as LaserBrain, Risky, etc). Can you clear this up for me? On a VGA monitor will the Falcon provide a good 'ST High' mode without interlace? Also... as I understand the verbage here, the Falcon (on a VGA monitor) will display the 320 X 200 'true color' (or 320 x 400 interlace)... true or false? I have NO intention of dumping my NEC-3D unless I have to. Besides, it's video bandwidth isn't up to 640 X 480 'true color' either . A good VGA monitor should be able to display ANvertical/horizontal frequencies and bandwidth limits.. therefore it will (hardware wise anyway) be able to handle ANY video mode the current Atari monitors (color or mono) can display. I know I've asked this before, but can you give us the specific horizontal sweep, vertical refresh, and bandwidth specifications for the Falcon's video modes? You're a TOS expert but surely there's a hardware guru out there you can put a hammerlock on for the answers . Thanks for being here for us; Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 108 Sat Sep 05, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 03:00 EDT Again.. VGA monitor _don't_ interlace. Period. The ST High Resolution mode is 640x400 just like a regular ST High on a TT using a VGA monitor. However, on a Monitor or TV.. 640x400 ST High is achieved by interlacing the screen. Sorry, that's the only way to do it. And again, the Falcon030 can't do 640x480 True Color mode. It's just too much bandwidth for the computer to handle. As for horizontal sweep, vertical refresh, and bandwidth.. Ask the Developer Support people in the Developer Support Roundtable, Gregg. Those are definitely developer type questions that I don't know off the top of my head ;-) -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 109 Sat Sep 05, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 03:33 EDT For the record... I hate Logitech mice I've dealt with on PC's. Gimme the clunky Atari mouse over those anyday. Towns, Hmm... looks like the Falcon is interleaved w/ the processor and is only getting 8Mbytes/sec bandwidth. That would jive w/ your answer about 640x480x65535. I guess the best way to get 640x480x65535 would be a separate video card which plugs into the Falcon (ala a mem expansion) with its own local video memory running with ~16Mbytes/sec bandwidth or better. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 110 Sat Sep 05, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:41 EDT B.WILLIS3 - Sorry, I forgot about those CD's. And I *AM* well-aware of how much you have to pay for them. G.ANDERSON - The ST High 'compatibility mode' for VGA monitors is not interlaced, so you don't have to worry about that. I believe it may also be the same 'duochrome' (i.e. any two colors) mode that the TT has. Maybe John or Bill can clarify this??? By the way, I just read elsewhere (USENET, I believe) that the Falcon030 may have just started shipping in Germany or at least that it will be within the week. Does anyone know if that's so? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 111 Sat Sep 05, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:19 EDT I'll go with the Beatle Mouse as well. I liked the Atari mouse but hated that pesky accellerator... I don't like that cordless mouse that Fifth Crusade has. I like their computer desk, though. A lovely shade of oak with golden coasters that sparkle in the lamplight. What? Oh, yes, the Falcon. Towns (or whoever), I think the basic reason for everyone's confusion about the video modes is that there are so darn many of them. So let me distill this down to a list of questions of my own: 1) What monitor would a fella (or gal) need to display _all_ of the Falcon's modes, as well as the ST compatibility modes? 2) Why do the VGA modes have the extra pixels (i.e. 320x240 instead of 320x200, 640x480 instead of 640x400)? Aside from the extra vertical resolution, the modes seem identical. 3) Will the video hardware be smart enough to say, "Hey, I have an SC1224 hooked up to me. The software wants to display 256 colors on a 640x480 VGA screen, so I better adapt the output to an interlaced 640x400x256 screen," or will the software have to figure that out? Take games for instance. It would be stupid for someone to write a game on a VGA monitor and not have it work on the SC1224 (of course no one would do that, but what I'm asking is if it's the programmer who has to take it into account or the computer). 4) Can a VGA monitor display the ST modes or not? 5) Is "a multisync" the answer to question 1? How are multisync and VGA different? Hopefully, with the answers to these questions posted, the resolutions will become clearer... Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 113 Sat Sep 05, 1992 N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 09:07 EDT What resolutions on the Falcon are avail. on the SC1435? What sort of adapter (cost,complexity) is needed? Thanks! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 119 Sat Sep 05, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 13:16 EDT ****** ****** ****** ****** ****** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ****** ** ****** ****** ** PLEASE TAKE NOTE!!! ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ****** FROM THE JERRY POURNELLE RT..... ATARI TT030 SECTION..... Jerry Pournelle RT Category 4, Topic 15 Message 345 Thu Sep 03, 1992 JERRYP [Chaos Master] at 02:38 EDT Looks like a busy Saturday, Glendale and Pasadena too. May have to be two days at it. Anyone official here? Tell the press people I'll be there. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!!! THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT !!!!!!!! Give this man a FALCON!!! Give him software!!! If any one man can make or break a new computer, it is him. Get him a hooker. Get him two hookers!!! Whatever it takes!!! This man LOVES new gadgets that are well made. PPPPLLLEEEAAASSSEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!!!!! Don't screw this up!!!!!! ----------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 120 Sat Sep 05, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 14:00 EDT The ST High mode is Duochrome.. just like on the TT. Soul Manager.. 1. There are VGA video modes and Monitor video modes. You can't display all of Falcon030's video modes on one monitor. 2. Because the VGA monitor can display more data. Instead of 400 vertical, it is capable of 480. And yes, these modes are the same except for their vertical resolution. 3. No, it won't. The Systems Software allows an applications programmer to set a mode. It's up to him to do what he wants above that. 4. Yes. There are ST compatibility modes available on both the Color Monitor and the VGA monitor. The only catch is that 640x400 on the Color Monitor is interlaced. Otherwise, the modes are the same as they are on an ST. 5. I don't know. Remember, I am a software guy. I don't know hardware. Neil.. The SC1435 is basically the same as the SC1224 as far as the Falcon030 is concerned. And yes, all current monitors will require an adapter. But, don't worry.. Atari will have adapters and they shouldn't be expensive or anything. Sam.. Bob Brodie and the Atari people that will be attending Glendale are aware of Jerry's planned visit. We will be sure to give him the special treatment he deserves! (And I am sure that we will get him a Falcon030 as soon as we can) -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 123 Sat Sep 05, 1992 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 14:42 EDT JT, So which modes will my Omnimon Rainbow NOT display? - Terry - ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 124 Sat Sep 05, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 15:22 EDT "the treatment he deserves"...Diplomacy in action! ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 133 Sat Sep 05, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 18:56 EDT John, What are the return codes for XBIOS(4) on the Falcon for what resolutions? Will a return of the following numbers still be the same? 0 = ST Low 1 = ST Med 2 = ST High ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 134 Sat Sep 05, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 19:03 EDT J.RICHTER and maybe the kids will start asking Mom and Dad for a Falcon so they can do their homework. Or they can have a Falcon that displays interactive TV video images...etc... Well got to go, I got to brain-storm something else. Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 137 Sat Sep 05, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 21:22 EDT Yeah Sam, give Jerry a hooker so he can catch AIDS, that'll make an impression on em . BTW, your post was funny, I'm just kibbutzing.... Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 138 Sat Sep 05, 1992 C.MACLEOD2 [Cam MacLeod] at 22:24 EDT >Yah, well don't look now, but apparently no one around here has tried >Microsoft ANYTHING. Like, Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Money, Microsoft >Works... don't _even_ get me started on Lotus or Borland! I'm gettin' >tired of hearing about bazillion gol-durn video resolutions and >colors!!! I WANT to hear about the software solutions coming to solve >my small business problems on the Atari!!! I'm TIRED of quirky, buggy >unsupported, long-abandoned "productivity" software!!! > >WAY before I fork over $1399 for a usable Falcon30 I will get a >Spectre GCR and a decent spreadsheet and database to run on it - and >pocket the difference in cost!!! > >Andy Cassino I guess no-one else is interested in what they can DO with a Falcon's power...just the video modes and type and colour of mouse it has. Without good software that can connect to the "outside" world (eg DOS, MAC) I am slowly being pushed into a different computer. With WordPerfect for Windows at work I cannot do work at home on WordWriter. No ST program can import a WP Windows document. With Lotus for Windows out now, LDW is looking very pale indeed. I have to lose all my formatting to have compatibility with LDW. Not so hot when HOW things look is all-important. No hope for any LDW upgrades... I am being pushed into the MAC world for compatibility with DOS/Windows programs (I do not like Intel). Type of mouse, different video modes are all well and nice but USEABILITY is the key. I don't hear any hoopla about what software is coming. I already know what "productivity" software has passed into dust on the Atari. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 139 Sat Sep 05, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 22:59 EDT Mr. Towns, We all THANKYOU for the information on the FCC.. It sounds ... well ..OK! Please continue the GOOD information flow.. As for the video modes... well I have to LOVE what ATARI has done here!.. 640x480x256 is just about what most people would want on a VGA monitor.. after all I work with this SAME rez at work with my 486 PC ... sure others are using 1024x768 but ...oh is the text tiny! on some of the better monitors this rez is ok (ie NEC 4FG and 5FG) but these monitors cost MORE than the Falcon.. (this may change in the future though). The beauty of the Falcon is the you don't have to waste your SC1224.. it's the perfect "true color" video production monitor!.. have it hooked up in parallel with your VGA (I think you can do this?) and when you want to make up some high-tech "true color" video with CD quality sound.. you'll have it.. I must admit if ATARI could add one more video mode (they can dump 320-200) We all would LOVE a 640x960 single page mode!!! The Mac can handle this with an inexpensive FULL page monitor.. even in monochrome this would be AWSOME!.. Another Idea I had was.. can you take out the standard 1.44 floppy drive and install a FLOPTICAL in its place? this sounds like a great all-a-round device for this kind of FUN MACHINE! Well John, If ATARI wants to woo others to their platform (and I know they do) they need a PROFESSIONAL pointing device!.. And since most of those folks who will try the Falcon are previous MAC or PC people (just because there is millions of 'em) they will NOT like the OLD ST mouse.. I can garauntee it! and if ATARI interviewed 100 of these folks at least 80 would agree.. gee it felt kinda clunky.. first impressions do count! Mike, You just can't be talking about the same ATARI mouse we are.. FAST double clicks have always been a problem with MY wife and I with the ATARI mouse! ... I like both the BEST and the Golden Image... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 140 Sat Sep 05, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 23:27 EDT Bill Rehbock is the guest of honor on Wednesday night's conference here on GEnie. He will be discussing the Falcon030 in detail as well and plans for Applications for the Falcon030. If you have questions or suggestions, please show up and talk to Bill. I am sure he would love to hear from you! I will pass along the concerns for a new pointing device, but I think we really should move the mouse discussions to another area, Okay? -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 143 Sun Sep 06, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 11:08 EDT Somehow, there always seems to be someone out there who wants to use their Atari to do their work at home. I suppose that this is an acceptable form of computer use. However, the Falcon030 does not seem to be designed as a computer targeted at this audience. Having a trillion resolutions and scads of colors is a pretty good indication of this, and 16-bit DMA driven sound channels is a dead giveaway. But, even though the Falcon030 is targeted at a different audience, it is perhaps the best computer for working at home on. Not only because of it's ease of setup, ease of use, 1990's architecture (and OS), affordability, or even it's expandability. The truth of the matter is that it is the greatest 'personal' computer BECAUSE of the Video, DSP, Sound, etc, etc, etc. Why is this? Simple. Because the Falcon030 was designed _after_ 8-bit processors became passe', it doesn't suffer from the bazillion design flubs which are inbred into every DOS clone. So, any stock Falcon030 out of the box will be (to the user) at least (if not more) powerful than any (affordable) clone. You can quote stats and benchmarks 'till your blue in the face, but to put the two machines side-by-side, and 10 people out of 10 will declare the Falcon030 to be 'faster'. Unfortunately, the 'productivity' market is saturated with loads of boring, lifeless programs which have become de facto standards in the circles which use them. Plus, the fact that these programs, used at work, are often mistaken as 'free' or 'mine', and are usually brought home with the work conducted there. Because these programs will not run on a stock Falcon030, there is little chance that the average user will buy one to work at home on (a person who worked for a company trying to revive the 8-track tape certainly wouldn't buy a DAT or CD to record them at home on, would he???). So, most 'productivity' software on the Falcon030 will come from overseas. When it does arrive, it will easily outperform equivalent programs on the clones. Patience, will be necessary int this case. The Falcon030 was not designed to compete in this field specifically, so most of the programs which do come out for it will surely be targeted at the fields the Falcon030 excels in. Because the Falcon030 excels so well in several key areas, we _need_ software in those areas, to sell _oodles_ of Falcon030's. Once the Falcon030 has established itself as a powerful machine, then businesses will not reject it sight unseen. Once this happens, then there will be an established userbase, and development of other niche programs will start. At this time, you will see some _fabulous_ applications coming out (Hint: all those features of the Falcon030 will be put to good use in this niche too.) It will be worth waiting for. _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 146 Sun Sep 06, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 14:36 EDT Thuderbird, "Easily outperform software on the clones" ... hmmmm have you ever used Word for Windows 2.0? Excel 4.0? .... no-one will EASILY outperform these guys! ... I have been waiting.. and waiting for (2) years for the magic European software to come that will EASILY outperform what I use on the 486' at work! ... personally I believe in American software! I don't like the STRANGE interfaces of the European stuff... Take a look at PageStream for an example.. I think its interface is far better than Calamus.. You are not going to beat MicroSoft and WordPerfect at WordProccessing that just about all they do!! WHY NOT MAKE UP with MicroSoft and WordPerfect!! (Are you listening ATARI?).. Word 5 for the Falcon!!! Excel4.0 for the Falcon!!! It will ALWAYS be software that sells the hardware.. So why not have the BEST software used on the BEST hardware... Falcon030 Even if ATARI had to pay up-front money to MicroSoft to get the ball rolling.. it would be worth every cent to Long Range profitability! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 147 Sun Sep 06, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 16:02 EDT J. Richter, I HAVE used Word for Windoze and WordPerfect 5.1 - I don't have much choice at work. (Yep - on 486 machines.) I'll take Calligrapher any time. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 149 Sun Sep 06, 1992 A.CASSINO [Andy] at 16:53 EDT Thunderbird, >Somehow, there always seems to be someone out there who wants to use their >Atari to do their work at home. I suppose that this is an acceptable form of >computer use. Not only are their people that "want" to do work at home, there are people that MUST do work at home. If you are not in that category, thank your ever- loving stars and pray that it doesn't change. This is 1992 and lots of are people doing what they have to do to survive economically. That doesn't mean they are willing to watse time doing work at home. If the dad-gum software is in the way and takes time to fool with, that means there is EVEN LESS time available for friends, family or whatever else is more important (which I say, is almost ANYTHING). Personally. I not only do my employer's work at home, but I also run my own small business. I SOLD all my games, joysticks and toy software a year ago. I put my SC1224 in the closet. There's no time or desire to PLAY with the computer, it is used for WORK (and for software support and information on GEnie). Meanwhile, I have had the chance to use some Windows applications and what I have seen are applications that can save me time, even when running on a $1000 Compaq Prolinea 386SX - and that includes Windows 3.1 and Microsoft Works already installed, a decent detached keyboard, and a decent mouse! Monitor extra, as with the Atari. So, for me, waiting to see what cool European solutions appear to run on the Falcon is just doesn't make sense. I simply am not going to pay more (on a Falcon) to take a BIG RISK that they MAY appear and they MAY be useful. I have a major project concluding October 31 and that could be the last good time for a long while to make a change. At that time I am moving my files to well-supported, easy-to-use applications on another platform. It may just be a Spectre GCR Mac - possibly the cheapest approach, and that has certain merits - but if finances permit, it will be on a PC, because I use SuperBase and SuperBase 4.0 for Windows is AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW on the PC and it makes the current version of Atari SuperBase LOOK SICK. And, by the way, I won't be pirating it - or anything else - from work. >Once the Falcon030 has established itself as a powerful machine, then >businesses will not reject it sight unseen. Once this happens, then there will >be an established userbase, and development of other niche programs will >start. Oh, wake up and smell the coffee! A dream like that might have been remotely possible in 1986 but IT IS WAY TOO LATE NOW. Employers' have a HUGE investment in training people to use a certain type of computer and certain applications. No employer is going to retrain their employees use Atari computers and applications. None, nada, zip, ZERO, not now, not ever. So here I'll say something good about Atari: they are probably REAL SMART to realize this and do something different where they have a chance to attract non-corporate customers. That said, if all the sudden Excel 4.0 and SuperBase 4.0 was available for the Falcon, AND I could get a 4 MB Falcon with a 80 MB hard-drive for $1000 FOR SURE IN NOVEMBER 1992, I *would* decide to stick with Atari. That's what it would take, and I ain't holding my breath! Andy Cassino ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 150 Sun Sep 06, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 17:32 EDT We have been talking to the large software companies about moving their products to the Falcon030. Naturally, they are taking a wait and see atttitude on the issue. They want to see us sell the machine in quantities and then they will look into the the issues of porting applications or updating older Atari versions. However, all of them thought that the Falcon030 was a power machine with the right price. Please be patient. Things take time.. We can't expect Falcon030 to suddenly turn things around overnight. It will take time. But, we are working on it. Talk to Bill Rehbock at his RTC here on GEnie. He knows more than anyone the status of applications development for the Falcon030. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 151 Sun Sep 06, 1992 C.MACLEOD2 [Cam MacLeod] at 18:50 EDT If Atari wants to sell Falcons to NEW users it has to provide top-notch software to run on it. Dozens of GIF converters and sound players aren't going to sell the Falcon to the modern market. Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect (MAC-type versions) running FASTER on a cheaper Atari platform will sell machines. More promises of European imports down the line will not sell machines to anyone other than the perennial optimists (and I was one of them). This machine HAS to be sold to non-Atari users. WordWriter and LDW will not do it. BTW *I* do not pirate software from work. I have a GCR and bought 1-2-3 and WordPerfect for the MAC. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 152 Sun Sep 06, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 19:36 EDT Wayne. Good idea, lets see I have the Mega, TT and next a Falcon. Oh, I also have the broken 520 ST. So, that is 3 ATARI mice but I mainly use the cordless mouse from Practical Solutions and sometimes the ATARI mouse but for all ARTwork I use the WIZ-graphic tablet. For drawing the tablet and pen are better than the mouse. Andy. Maybe the PC board for the Falcon will help you with your work. When it comes out. The type of work that I do is more graphics related, DTP, DTV, Multimedia work that is why I like the Falcon. Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 154 Sun Sep 06, 1992 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 21:09 EDT J. Richter: I was discussing my Atari mouse, orginal with my 1040ST, purchased December 1985. Never repaired, never replaced. Maybe for me the extra resistance is a plus. I tried a Mac mouse the other day; felt like the keyboard on the ST everybody complains about! But then, I use medium guage strings on my guitar, too. Thunderbird: >>...put the two machines side-by-side, and 10 people out of 10 will >>decale the Falcon030 to be 'faster'. Yeah! Just what I said earlier. Atari needs to _show_ the masses what a good deal the Falcon is compared to MSDOS. And when they see they don't have to buy a zillion "addons" to make the machine work... Andy and others: I've used Windows and Wordperfect 5.1, and I'll take my stupid (and old) Regent Word II! It at least loads up in less than five seconds. I go out for coffee while I wait for Windows to come up at work. And loading Corel Draw or Pagemaker! Gag! As for Superbase, the new owners are supposed to be upgrading the ST version. That said, I will say YOU ARE RIGHT that the Falcon (or any Atari product) would do better with a couple of the big name developers saying "yes, we will develop for the Falcon." Again, that's feeding on the ignorance of the masses, but hey, that's marketing: convincing the public of what you think they need. They just don't know about the Codeheads...yet. mike.k ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 155 Sun Sep 06, 1992 B.GOCKLEY [Brian G.] at 21:10 EDT I wonder whether really well upgraded versions of Word Up and LDW Power (2 of the reputed 'best' in their class programs) would help or hinder sales of other programs. I think that Atari could come out with Falcon versions, and show other vendors what can be done; at least get them into good hands. Brian D Gockley ST Informer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 156 Sun Sep 06, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 21:59 EDT >there are people that MUST do work at home. If you are not in that >catagory...pray it doesn't change. Someone who has to do work at home is probably either a small businessman, or salried employee. Since salried employees generally make more than employees paid by the hour (and entrepreneurs make their own descisions), this is not a bad position to be in. It's certainly not something to be avoided. Towns, You guys need to distribute a guide for converting Windows/Mac programs to the Falcon, and then you need to work with the Comeau guys to make sure their C++ makes it out for the Atari. It wouldn't hurt to figure out a way for Lattice C 5.5 to have a US distributor (maybe you guys could be the distributor?). There seems to be a lack of high-end development tools for the US Atari customer. If that changed, the quantity of US-developed ST software would surely improve. And yes, I know you don't personally make these decisions, but I figured you'd at least be able to appreciate the importance of a good set of software development tools. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 157 Sun Sep 06, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:36 EDT J.RICHTER: I'm sorry to have to point out to you that 99.99999% of all people who use computers would be better off with virtually _any_ Atari ST Public Domain word processor, over WordPerfect. WordPerfect is great if you use it all the time and have 8 hours a day to learn how to use it. Your average everyday user is simply not interested in WordPerfects complicated operations. They just want to write letters and write stories, etc. None of them would ever even consider laying out $799 for a computer and then 1/3 more just for some 'big name' word processor. You seem like a business oriented person. Perhaps no one has explained to you the exact reasons why virtually any ST program can outperform a PC/Windoze program. I won't bore you with technical details. Let's go with a 'business' type analogy... You are Mr. Big of MBI computers (Mr. Big Incorporated). You have a gazillion units of your latest model sitting in the warehouse. You need to ship them to your customers. However, due to an amazingly complex foul up in the legal department 10 years ago, they inadvertantly agreed with the unions that you can only employ 6 trucks at a time to deliver your goods. These trucks must not contain more than 8 computers each. Over at Atari, having seen your blunder in all it's glory, the Tramiels have a contract which says that they can employ a 16 trucks, each containing 32 computers. Of course Atari promptly trounces you and you file chapter 11. Now, simply imagine each 'computer' in the previous analogy as a pixel on your screen, and you truly understand how a $300 'toy' computer can outperform virtually _any_ PC. Of course this is oversimplified, but it is true for the vast majority of machines out there. A.CASSINO, Actually, I _do_ bring work home with me. Part of my work involves programming PC's, and I love to bring my work home with me, because it gives me a chance to get some work done in a decent amount of time. At work, I am forced to use Microsloth "C" 6.0, from that huge company that some people adore so very much. I simply port my work code to ST disks and write at home using "Laser C" from some small peanuts place called "Megamax". It's nice to be able to work in a nice GEM environment, and not fall asleep waiting for compiles. While I admit that the '386/20 I have at work is no longer the 'cutting edge' in the clone arena, but you would think that it really should be faster than a stock 8Mhz ST... it's not. I'm not sure I understood your message, but you seemed to imply that learning new Falcon 030 programs would take away from other valuable endeavours. If this is what you meant, I can only say this: this is Atari software, not clone software. By and large Atari software is not only easier to use, but also lacks the steep learning curve of the clone applications. I would say that the average ST application takes about 1/3 the time to learn completely as it takes the clone user to install properly on his machine. From the rest of your letter I gather that you use your computer for work exclusively. I'm sorry to hear that. It's sort of like owning a car purely as a form of transportation. But to each his own. Did you ever think that the Faclon isn't right for you? Maybe you should be looking at one of the bland pre fabricated processed stamped folded spindled and expurgated computers in the DOS world. The Falcon030 is _meant_ to be PLAYED WITH. There is _nothing_ wrong with playing. Did you know that the entertainment business is the must lucrative on the earth??? The Falcon030 is obviously not meant to take the business world by storm. Even though it's capabilities far exceed the typical clone machine, it is not targeted at that audience. By the way, I never stated that everyone would throw out their machines when Atari had a base of installed Falcon030's... merely that when Atari has sold quantities of them, Atari will not be scoffed at by businesses as they are now. Personally, I find databases and word processors quite dry and stifling. I probably have more fun doing disk backups than I could in _any_ database. So, I'm looking forward to the Falcon030, and all of the software I can get to _play_ with on it. ______________________ \hunderbird P.S. Do you have any sales figures for "Sound Blasters" or "Wing Commander"? I bet they're pretty close to SuperBase 4.0... P.P.S. Somebody get this guy a Lynx. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 158 Sun Sep 06, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 22:55 EDT WordPerfect is one of those programs you either love or hate. I'm in the latter category; I certainly cannot envision a time that I would _want_ to use it. On the other hand, I do want to see WP supported on Atari machines. Even non-computer users have heard of it and think it is respected, so there's some name recognition value to name-dropping Atari computer salesmen. After they buy the machine, _then_ steer them to a truly useful word processor. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 159 Sun Sep 06, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 23:29 EDT If someone needs a machine to do work at home, they should get the machine they have at work. Expecting the Falcon, or any other machine, to fit the bill is unrealistic. I'm interested in the ST/Falcon specifically because it has NOTHING to do with Big Blue. Yuck. Gagg. As for Atari producing new versions of LDW or WordUp.... check Atari's track record on in house applications. No thanks. License them out to and outfit like CodeHead or Gribnif etc yeah, in house? You'd just wind up with another Microsoft Write, DeskSet, FSMissing In Action GDOS, etc. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 160 Sun Sep 06, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 23:52 EDT Ok, here's my situation, and my question; My color monitor (SC1224) just died a sudden death. I will definitely want to replace it, as I do alot of graphics work on my STE. I definitely plan on purchasing a Falcon as soon as possible, so it looks like I have a decision to make here. My understanding is that neither the Atari monitors or (nor?) a VGA monitor will display all of the Falcon's resolutions. I'd really like to have access to _all_ of the resolutions since I hate having something I can't use. So I guess the question is, what would really be the best monitor solution? Would a multisync be able to handle all resolutions? I've read all of John T.'s explainations of all the rez's, but I'm still a bit confused. Any tips and suggestions would be appreciated. - Mick ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 161 Mon Sep 07, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:36 EDT Personally speaking, I like Calamus 1.09n. It's fairly cheap and aside from a Spellchecker it does just about any thing you could want. Not to mention it's still fully supported and cheaper then Word Perfect. I still like Word Writer also... even works in TT Medium some 6 years after I bought it. I'd like to see some of these older programs cleaned up and sold again. A lot of them are perfectly priced and designed for home use. Software is the key to the Falcons success. It needs to be able to do the things the others can't and only the developers can make it do those tricks. I don't think advertising nor anything else is going to be effective until some more basic level software packages exist at a decent price. We have some incredible software now but most of it seems to be in the higher end of the market. We need some new lower end products in the $60 price range. I think a majority of STe/Falcon buyers are going to be looking in this price range for Word Processors and such. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 162 Mon Sep 07, 1992 K.SCHAFER4 [Necromancer] at 01:31 EDT Coming from a person who has owned Atari computers since 1979, I must say that I have never been 100% happy with software availability and or choices. HOWEVER, I also am forced to use 386 and 486 boxes at work (Ieven have a little PS/2 on my 'sub-desk' next to my MSTe. The PS/2 rarely is powered up.) To date, I have found VERY FEW programs that perform as well as the ones on my ST. While I haven't purchased Caligrapher yet, you can bet I will... Word for Windows?? Please. Word Perfect 5.1?? COME-ON, it is a tragic example of the drudgery of PC programs. Those CTRL-ALT-SHIFT-F3 combinations get a *little* tiresome after a while. Sure we need to see some upgraded productivity software, but, even now, some of it can't be equaled by PC-trash. I am sure the Falcon will spur at a minumium, some renewed interest in the TOS platform, and it seems reasonable to expect some new applications when Atari delivers the new machine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 163 Mon Sep 07, 1992 T.GIRSCH [T.J.] at 02:09 EDT To all: The problem with applications development for the falcon is that it's a catch-22. Nobody will develop for the falcon unless people buy it, and nobody will buy it unless people develop for it. So if anything sells falcons, it will be it's "niche" in the graphics/sound arena. It's popularity will have to start there, and the rest will come later. (Although Jerry Pournelle could sell 'em too. Let's start a "buy Jerry a Falcon" fund...) Oh, well. We'll see what happens. Dot - WordPerfect is a program whose power is unmatched, and few can argue that. Unfortunately, it has a truly "PC" user interface that takes that power and puts it all out of the reach of the average user. I have been using WordPerfect for a year and a half at various jobs, and I still have plenty to learn. WordPerfect can do everything you'd ever want a word processor to do (and then some) but the User Interface makes all that null and void. An example: Italics on Word Writer is ALT-I. Italics on WordPerfect is CTRL-F8 followed by '2' followed by '4.' Real intuitive, huh? Nevertheless, I would like to see it in the ST/TT/Falcon arena because: a) I would like to be able to bring WP 5.1 documents home and edit them. b) Smart dealers could bundle WP together with CodeKeys, and give you a default macro set that makes ALT-I equal to CTRL-F8,2,4. -TJ ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 164 Mon Sep 07, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 02:15 EDT We are working with Comeau on C++ and it is progressing. As for Lattice C 5.5, I understand that HiSoft is working on US Distribution. I think they will resolve the situation very soon. And please... let's move the mouse discussion to another area? Please? -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. PS. The Basic differences between the VGA monitor and the Color Monitor are that the VGA monitor can't display 640x480 True Color and the VGA monitor displays slightly more vertical resolution. In other words, instead of a possible 400 pixels of vertical resolution, you get 480 on a VGA monitor. Make sense? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 165 Mon Sep 07, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 02:36 EDT Mike, If my dealer would just PLEASE show me Calligrapher GOLD maybe I'd buy the thing ... it its really that good! ... but we must convince software developers that import and export modules for word processors are ESSENTIAL for its success... If Calligrapher had an import/export module to Word for Windows think of how many more people would consider the ATARI platform to be a viable contender! and I hate WordPerfect 5.1.. I was talking Word Perfect for Windows.. at TOTALLY different animal! Also talk about HOT .. have you seen AMI PRO 3.0 ... its like PageStream with a SUPER powerfull word processor built in... LISTEN.. don't kid yourself, ATARI has a lot of catching up to do in the productivity end of things... I mean the only thing new seems to be Utility.. Utility... Utility... WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO TEMPUS WORD? that really sounded like the HIGH end Word Processor good enough to sell the machine.. Can you imagine a Word Processor with the power of Word for Windows 2.0 and the speed of TEMPUS!! Also what ever happened to that SECRET 3D spreedsheet ATARI was working on? Andy... Well its probably to late for you... I have a PC and an ATARI Mega4 side by side... I am lucky... The Falcon is a "Personal Media" system and will do things that are creative and FUN that the PC can't do! Maybe the BEST thing would be for ATARI to really PUSH the 386' option to the Falcon.. but it would never sell unless bundled-in at a competetive price!! WOW you could do all the FUN things and EXCEL 4.0 too!! Towns, I like your attitude! ... Get the BIG American companies into the ACT.. (it would'nt hurt to have a MegaFalcon with a touch more processor speed, higher resolutions and separate keyboard.. for that businessy look..you know) I hope ATARI has learned its lessons.. that computers.. the ST is where they made all their money.. (remember the glory sales year of 86'!) more than hand held game machines or whatever.. or pocket computers... Imagine where ATARI would have been if they had put all their money in these systems! BUT OH is it ROUGH out there ... $900 386SX systems.. $1500 486' systems with 100meg hard drives! ATARI will just have to DO IT BETTER than anybody else.. folks will always pay for qualilty!! Mike, Regent Word... no comment... your needs are obviously few when it comes to Word Processing.. Here are just a FEW of the hundreds of features in Word for Windows 2.0!.. Most of these are also available in MAC Word 5.0 NO I don't work for MicroSoft ... but they make a GREAT word processor which would be even BETTER on the Falcon... Thats why they must SELL in the good old USA! Outlining footnotes auto table of contents generation tables Word Basic Zoom in/out to allow ANY page size ON SCREEN Macros Embed any MS Doc or Graphic in document (ie Excel4.0 graphs) Multiple columns input/output to almost ANY word processor format made hundred of templates thousands of true-type fonts (remember FSMGDOS?) 100% adobe font compatability auto- number outlines click and insert bullets.. built-in-thesaurus Built-in- spell checking auto-save ThunderBird, Wrong.. wrong... I AM NOT talking Word Perfect 5.1!!!!!! Word for Windows 2.0 ... VERY simple to use for the beginner.. yet very powerfull for the professional writer .. Better try some moderns tools out before you judge! Millions of folks who didn't need it obviously thought differently... I am afraid this simplistic thinking towards what ATARI needs for productivity tools might be the undoing of ATARI ... (but I think they know what needs to be done).. and you can buy this $700 program discounted to $399 if you look.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 166 Mon Sep 07, 1992 S.D.ELLIOTT [Steve] at 03:15 EDT ATZ ----------------------------------------------------------------- * Long Message Alert! (3 pages) * -------------------------------------------- --------------------- A number of people here seem to be curious as to what the DSP chip in the Falcon030 will do for them. Below I have excerpted some possibilities from the DSP56000/DSP56001 Digital Signal Processor User's Manual available from Motorola (#DSP56000UM/AD). ---------------------------------- ------------------------------- * Begin excerpts * ------------------------- ---------------------------------------- The DSP56001 and DSP56000, user-programmable, CMOS digital signal processors (DSPs), are optimized to execute DSP algorithms in as few operations as possible while maintaining a high degree of accuracy. The architecture has been designed to maximize throughput in data-intensive applications. This design has resulted in a dual-natured, expandable architecture with sophisticated on-chip peripherals and general purpose I/O. Being random-access memory (RAM) based, the DSP56001 is an off- the-shelf processor designed to load its program from an external source. DSP is the arithmetic processing of real-time signals sampled at regular intervals and digitized. Examples of DSP processing are as follows: Filtering of Signals Convolution, which is the mixing of two signals Correlation, which is a comparison of two signals Rectification of a signal Amplification of a signal Transformation of a signal Useful functions.....include the following: DIGITAL FILTERING Finite Impulse Response (FIR) Infinite Impulse Response (IIR) Matched Filters (Correlators) Hilbert Tranforms Windowing Adaptive Filters/Equalizers SIGNAL PROCESSING Compression (e.g., Linear Predictive Coding of Speech Signals) Expansion Averaging Energy Calculations Homomorphic Processing Mu-law/A-law to/from Linear Data Conversion DATA PROCESSING Ecryption/Scrambling Encoding (e.g., Trellis Coding) Decoding (e.g., Viterbi Decoding) NUMERIC PROCESSING Scalar, Vector, and Matrix Arithmetic Transcendental Function Computation (e.g., Sin(X), Exp(X)) Other Nonlinear Functions Pseudo-Random-Number Generation MODULATION Amplitude Frequency Phase SPECTRAL ANALYSIS Fast Fourier Transform (FFT) Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT) Sine/Cosine Transforms Moving Average (MA) Modeling Autoregressive (AR) Modeling ARMA Modeling Useful applications are based on combining these and other functions. Some typical applications for DSPs are presented in the following list: TELECOMMUNICATION Tone Generation Dual-Tone Multifrequency (DTMF) Subscriber Line Interface Full-Duplex Speakerphone Teleconferencing Voice Mail Adaptive Differential Pulse Code Modulation (ADPCM) Transcoder Medium Rate Vocoders Noise Cancellation Repeaters Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN) Transceivers Secure Telephones DATA COMMUNICATION High-Speed Modems Multiple Bit-Rate Modems High-Speed Facsimile RADIO COMMUNICATION Secure Communications Point-to-Point Communications Broadcast Communications Cellular Mobile Telephone COMPUTER Array Processors Work Stations Personal Computers Graphic Accelerators IMAGE PROCESSING Pattern Recognition Optical Character Recognition Image Restoration Image Compression Image Enhancement Robot Vision GRAPHICS 3-D Rendering Computer-Aided Engineering (CAE) Desktop Publishing Animation INSTRUMENTATION Spectral Analysis Waveform Generation Transient Analysis Data Acquisition SPEECH PROCESSING Speech Synthesizer Speech Recognizer Voice Mail Vocoder Speaker Authentication Speaker Verification AUDIO SIGNAL PROCESSING Digital AM/FM Radio Digital Hi-Fi Preamplifier Noise Cancelation Music Synthesis Music Processing Acoustic Equalizer HIGH-SPEED CONTROL Laser-Printer Servo Hard Disk-Servo Robotics Motor Controller Position and Rate Controller VIBRATION ANALYSIS Electric Motors Jet Engines Turbines MEDICAL ELECTRONICS CAT Scanners Sonographs X-Ray Analysis Electrocardiogram Electroencephalogram Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Analysis DIGITAL VIDEO Digital Television High-Resolution Monitors RADAR AND SONAR PROCESSING Navigation Oceanography Automatic Vehicle Location Search and Tracking SEISMIC PROCESSING Oil Exploration Geological Exploration ----------------------------------------------- ------------------ * End of excerpts * ------------------------------------- ---------------------------- Some of the above applications will probably never be implemented using a Falcon, but I'm sure you can see that there are some definitely interesting possibilities for the DSP chip in the new Falcons. I hope this clears up some of the mystery. -Steve ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 167 Mon Sep 07, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 04:11 EDT Towns, Good. I'm impressed. Ben White ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 168 Mon Sep 07, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 04:25 EDT SAM-RAPP - Unfortunately, Jerry knocked parts of the 1040ST's case design (he especially hated the cheap, slanted function keys, but then who doesn't? ) when he reviewed the machine many years ago, so he may do the same with the Falcon030. Also, I asked Jerry before if Atari had contacted him about getting him a Falcon030 and he happened to mention that he won't review products that aren't readily available. TOWNS - C'mon! There has to be SOME way to display all the Falcon030's modes on one monitor??? If not, that's EXTREMELY troubling...at least to me! Then again, it should be possible to edit 320x200x64,000 images on the VGA's 320x240x65,536 mode, so it might not be THAT bothersome. M.POCHE - Keep in mind you can probably somehow display 320x200 and 320x400 w/ up to 65,536 colors on the VGA 320x240 and 320x480 16-bit modes. Likewise, you'll probably somehow be able to display 640x200 and 640x400 in up to 256 colors using the VGA 640x240 and 640x480 256-color modes. This should be possible through software, but SOMEONE may also come up with a way to use ALL resolutions on VGA/multiscan monitor. If these software answers are used, the only modes you're really missing on a VGA monitor are the 640x200 and interlaced 640x400 16-bit modes. Oh yeah! You'll be missing the overscan modes as well. Hmmm... Despite what John says, there must be SOME monitor that can display all the resolutions even if it's a matter of having to physically switch the monitor between TV/RGB mode and VGA mode or somesuch. By the way, if anyone wants to see the Falcon030's innards, there's a color picture of it inside the September issue of ATARI ST USER. It *REALLY IS* cramped for space in there. It's not a close enough shot to see things like the 'processor-direct slot' connectors and I couldn't see the FPU socket, but you can see the 68030, DSP (and DSP SRAM), RAM daughterboard, 2.5" HD, SDMA processor, internal fan, and a few other things in it fairly clearly. The article along with the pics says that (as has already been revealed here) the production units will probably have light-grey cases, but it also says that there will be a redesigned unit in April '93. At first, I read "redesigned unit" to mean a redesigned 1040-type case to replace the original design, but then thought that that phrase could also imply a 'Mega Falcon030' to be available as well as the Falcon030. The article also quotes German sources as saying that there are also plans for at least one new model machine below the Falcon030 and at least one new model above the Falcon030, but no timetable for such machines. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 169 Mon Sep 07, 1992 D.GROSS1 [Dave G.] at 04:32 EDT Joey, Gotta agree with you.. As a full time atari user at my home/studio, with SMPTE TRACK GOLD as my main program, we still use Word Writer ST and Datamanager Pro...They do the job without tons of bells and whistles...But I'm sure dying for something to do my invoiceing and accounting for the business side of it...I've tricked DataManager 1 into doing the invoiceing. Software for the Falcon is a must...the POTENTIAL is there...It will blow away the Mac in the MIDI department if they do it right...Pro Tools is the standards now, but it just costs to damn much...Falcon could be the next great interface to Direct-to-Disk stuff, especially with the DSP...All the best effects devices use DSP to full advantage...I see used Spectre GCR's all the time, and may go that route for everything except MIDI till the Falcon arrives... Dave Gross DIGITRAX STUDIOS ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 170 Mon Sep 07, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 05:05 EDT Towns - Thanks for the answers. But your responses (and others that followed) lead me to a couple more questions (so bear with me): 1) Are the (for example) the 640x400x256 interlaced on a color monitor and the 640x480x256 on VGA actually _the same mode_? What I mean is, is it just two versions of the same mode, depending on the monitor you use? 2) With the means of selecting resolution from the TOS 4 desktop, do you get a list of all the possible resolutions for your monitor only? There isn't a big greyed-out list that you can't select, right? 3) With overscan on the color monitor, you could set the screen for 640x480 anyway, if you so wanted. Or how programmable is the overscan (I realize you can't do this from the desktop, but give me a for instance)? The reason I am so concerned about this is that I am worried about programmers having to write two sets of graphic data, one for the Atari monitors and one for VGA. If this is the case, it would be discouraging for them, to say the least. Granted, this would probably only be a problem for games, but great games are a cheap way to sell Falcons! Can anyone out there (Jim Allen, this means you!) answer my questions about the multisync monitor (re: what is the difference between ms and VGA, and will the ms be able to display _all_ resolutions)? As I understand it, the multisync should be able to "sync up" to any of the resolutions, giving you the best of all possible worlds... Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 171 Mon Sep 07, 1992 CHERRY.FONTS [Todd] at 06:04 EDT Rod, I've been using Macs professionally for many years as have a lot of my colleages and I've never seen a broken ADB connector. Why on earth would anyone want to repatch their keyboard/mouse very often anyway. Their hardware is VERY skookum. I'm not here pushing Macs either so don't flame me for that. I'm typing this on an Atari and that speaks for itself. :-) I've had mine since the ST beginning in '85. ..Todd ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 172 Mon Sep 07, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:38 EDT J.RICHTER: Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong! > "Millions of people who didn't need it obviously thought > differently..." Thet's just the point. Millions of people _DIDN'T THINK_ at all. It's a sad commentary on the intelligence of the average American consumer, but... he/she has an average 8th grade education, and purchases almost totally based on attempts to 'conform', rather than comparison shopping. Look at the Game Boy, which outsells the Lynx by a huge margin. It costs nearly as much, yet is so inferior to the Lynx that any comparison would be ridiculous. Everyone buys the game Boy because they are brainwashed and cannot make rational purchasing decisions for themselves. This same philosophy holds true for the purchase of PC's, with the further incentive added of having friends willing to 'give' them tons of free software. Very few people 'think' when they buy a PC, they just buy one out of ignorance. They probably don't even know that there _are_ other machines to buy. > "Better try some modern tools before you judge!" Coming from a PC user, you expect me to take a suggestion like this seriously?!?!?!?!! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - One thing Atari _doesn't_ need is a bunch of $700 programs you can buy for $399 "if you look", to sell Falcon030's. The existing base of low-cost ST applications will sell more Falcon030's than actual _sales_ of these overpriced applications. I admit that the 'name recognition' of these programs will help Falcon030 sales somewhat, but actual _sales_ of these programs will be minimal... they are just too expensive for the average user. When the user has $400 buring a hole in his/her pocket, I would bet any amount that he/she would be more inclined to buy a neato VGA monitor (to display more cool GIFs), or a bigger Hard Drive, before shelling out their hard earned cash for a piece of software... especially one that they already _have_ on _their_ machine at work. _________________________ \hunderbird P.S. When you're outnumbered and fighting the 'Big' bullies, there's no sense in fighting fair. You've got to hit 'em in the genetalia, and hit 'em hard. The clone's tender spot is in Graphics and Sound. This is the area where Atari must strike. After the bullies are 'down', then you can kick 'em in the head and punch 'em in the stomach. So, expect 'productivity' software to take a slight 'back seat' and be patient. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 173 Mon Sep 07, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 13:33 EDT ThunderBird.. I am using my Mega4 right NOW to respond... I am an ATARI nut just like you.. BUT.. but, to bury your head in the sand and not recognize something done WELL on another system would be FATAL in the long run for ATARI and the Falcon030 The folks at ATARI are not stupid.. they know the power of MicroSoft Word for Windows 2.0 and they'd LOVE to have it running on the Falcon.. better believe it! Hey.. I use a PC 486' with Windows 3.1 at work and a MAC and ATARI Mega4 at home, so what! These are just pieces of hardware that help man get their tasks done.. not religous objects to be worshiped. > "Millions of people _DIDN'T THINK_ at all" I will tell you what, sit down and actually USE Word for Windows 2.0 for thirty days (if ya don't think you fingers will turn green) and report back here. PLEASE don't mix WordPerfect 5.1 up with Word for Windows, they are as different as DOS is to ATARI GEM with NeoDESK! I HATE WORDPERFECT 5.1!!! Hey I would MUCH rather use Calligrapher (If I had a dealer who would show it to me!) but really waiting for Tempus WORD! I love the clean and simple way the ST comes up every time.. and I have NOT found anything that quit replaces PageStream on the ST.. (Maybe AMI PRO 3.0) Remember though, the Word Processing world has matured to a HIGH degree.. while ATARI has been asleep in the US for the last (3)years. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 174 Mon Sep 07, 1992 SANDY.W [sysop] at 16:36 EDT The mouse messages have been moved to Category 4 Topic 37. Not all of them are currently visible in order to cut down on the number that will appear as duplicates. Those missing messages will return in a week or so. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 175 Mon Sep 07, 1992 B.BILLJONES2 [BILL JONES] at 16:37 EDT How will the DSP affect mouse operations, and will the mouse be able to take advantage of the 68030's built in multitasking capbilities? Har har har har...... Bill Jones ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 176 Mon Sep 07, 1992 L.ROCHA1 [Lou (Sysop)] at 17:47 EDT Atari.... please do not listen to these suggestions about releasing the Falcon in a black case! I just painted my new office Atari gray to match my existing systems! ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 177 Mon Sep 07, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 18:29 EDT J.RICHTER, Geeze - all those features you mention sound like a SUB-SET of what Calligrapher (except for inport-export which I am sure that the CodeHeads are working on) will do - for $250 list. m. TOWNS, I'm kinda curious - with all these various resolutions, what does a ASSIGN.SYS file look like on a Falcon? What is the situation with (FSM)GDOS on the Falcon? Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 178 Mon Sep 07, 1992 T.FERREIRA at 20:12 EDT Hi. Is anyone making a Video PCB for the MEGA 2/4 to take advantage of the falcon Resolution (Using a SC1224, 600 X 400). I would be happy having a Mega 2 for now having better rez on old SC1224. Any info.. Tom Ferreira ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 179 Mon Sep 07, 1992 C.MACLEOD2 [Cam MacLeod] at 21:52 EDT There are a lot of misunderstandings of WordPerfect... WP 5.1....no thanks. But few people with a GUI would use it. The new wave is Windows WordPerfect or WordPerfect for Macintosh. WordPerfect for Windows (or preferably Macintosh) is easy to use... and is powerful. BTW with Windows an Icon button will give you BOLD or ITALICS...no Shift-F8- types here. Wordperfect with a GUI on the Falcon would SELL machines. Even to gullible people who think they NEED WP. People have heard of WP and think they need it.Rightly or wrongly it IS a selling point. Tossing aside all those people who look to do something USEFUL at home with their computers leaves a VERY small market indeed. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 180 Mon Sep 07, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 22:22 EDT John T.. thanks for your replies. I confess to a little confusion though. I've been looking over the video list you uploaded a week or so ago and it does seem that there are video modes available for TVs that are not available on a good VGA monitor. I have to wonder why since most VGA monitors can handle quite a variety of displays (including the 340 X 200 Edsun/Sierra 32,000 color display). You mention that a VGA unit can't handle the Falcon's interlace mode (I may have misunderstood you here). Why? Interlace is still fairly common in the DOS world (for the higher res's anyway) and every VGA monitor I've seen to date handles it fine. The monitor doesn't care what the signal it's receiving is, as long as it's within the unit's hardware limits it will display it ). Also; can you explain the difference between the interlaced modes and the 'line doubling' modes? I think I know what they are but I'd like to be sure. I strongly suspect most of the confusion here is in terminology, most of us are used to using specific terms for specific items and we're having to relearn some of that with these new (and impressive) video modes. Finally.... I think I'm catching on but I've got a suggestion....... You tend to identify the Atari line of color/monochrome monitors as just 'monitors'. I suspect some of us are getting these confused with VGA monitors (which you identify as VGA in most of your posts). If you can, could you use the phrase 'SCmonitor' when talking about Atari's ST units? I think that might help clear up some of our (ok, mine) confusion . Next time I'm over on the DEV forum I'll ask again about the specific video mode frequencies & band widths... Thanks again for confirming that we will have full ST High Res compatibility (duochrome) with the Falcon. Hopefully that won't be a major factor for long as our software folks get on the stick and start writing 'res-independent' software. Hang in there 'old buddy; Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 181 Mon Sep 07, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:26 EDT J.RICHTER: I can't try Word for Windoze 2.0 for 30 days, because it takes 30 days to boot Windoze, and 36 days to load Word. I do not agree that Atari is chomping at the bit to get it on their platform either. I'm sure they wouldn't react negatively to having it, but I really doubt that they are as enthusiastic about the pursuit of this program as you would like to think they are. You are performing the computer equivalent of trying to convince Chevrolet to make a Wagon variant of the Corvette ZR-1, to boost it's sales. To support your position, you're citing the many millions of Honda Civic Wagons which are sold every year, and threatening to buy one yourself. Furthermore, you predict doom for the Corvette line altogether with the rest of General Motors if they do not begin tooling your ideas right away, because after all, many businesses and families need a 5 door sedan. Finally, you'd wish to heck that people would stop talking about all that dadburned horsepower and instead discuss methods to improve it's fuel economy. Did you ever think that the Corvette is the way it is intentionally? Maybe the same line of reasoning applies to the Falcon030. Not everyone wants or needs a 'business' computer. I would suspect that the market of musicians alone is at least as big, and is pretty much virgin territory... not a field saturated with ultra-high-priced programs of questionable value, but loads of media hype. ________________________ \hunderbird P.S. You all know what happened to Preston Tucker, don't you??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 182 Mon Sep 07, 1992 A.CASSINO [Andy] at 22:49 EDT Thunderbird, I agree - databases and spreadsheets are B-O-R-I-N-G! That's why I want to use the most efficient ones I can get my hands on, to minimize the amount of time I spend with them! One other thing - if you ever develop carpal tunnel syndrome and/or related repetitive stress injuries - you'll never understand just how *little* fun a computer can be. I personally have gained a new appreciation for "traditional" forms of entertainment, such as movies and books. They are much easier on the arms! Andy Cassino ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 183 Mon Sep 07, 1992 SLP at 23:17 EDT Steve, I actually prefer the slanted function keys on the ST to those on a PC keyboard. Remember, the resolution list that John uploaded said a standard VGA monitor. I believe that quite a few people are confusing this with the multi scanning monitors that are now so popular that they have become the de facto standard. If you have a monitor that can sync an ST and run in all resolutions, then my guess is you could run all Falcon modes on it, provided you can fool the auto detect feature of the computer. Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 184 Mon Sep 07, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:25 EDT Macleod, Right on.. keep ATARI focused right on path.. Thunderbird... I have a 386SX-20 right here.. hmmm stop watch says 15 seconds to load Windows 3.1 and 6 seconds to load Word for Windows 2.0.. Man... you've been outa the loop to long! and this a $900 with 640x480x256 system (less monitor). Now lets see, if this is a Corvette what does that make the Falcon... A motor scutter! Your analogies are a little adrift there fella! Just because you don't use modern Word Processing software Please, Please don't discourage ATARI from trying to get it and add to the AWSOME power of the Falcon. If developers can tap into the parallel nature of Falcons 030/DSP we could have the ultimate Word Processing/DTP system in the future. Someone said that the midi market is only 3% of the total computer market.. Now if ATARI could get 20% of 3% hmmm ... thats .15% hmmm me thinks they need more! Mike.. Sub-set of Calligrapher hmmm ... that was just a small sub-set of WfWII... But why don't you post some Calligrapher features for us since some of us just can't get our dealers to show it to us! .. but how many different import/export modules does it have.. that is important for folks.. if the want to use it at home. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 185 Tue Sep 08, 1992 T.GIRSCH [T.J.] at 00:15 EDT Thunderbird - Everyone buys the Gameboy because the Lynx is not nearly as available. Target and K-Mart have been beggin for Lynxes forever, but there aren't enough being made. Availability is key, especially with a new machine such as the falcon. Unfortunately, I think the falcon appeals to a much-too- limited market. -TJ ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 186 Tue Sep 08, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 01:27 EDT Don't forget that a killer 486 with 32bit video and 32bit disk, 4Megs, 130MegHD, minitower, both floppies, max res of 1280x1024x16 colors, without a monitor is only....$1,500. Cheap monitor is $300, good one is $1,200. So comparing a Falcon to PeeCees is a bad idea. It's a very different computer, much easier for entry level computer users to use, and chock full of wizzbang sound/video flexibility...what you can ultimately do with it is still floating around in the imaginations of future users. Atari desperately needs an "included with every unit" integrated software package...and Atari version of MicrosoftWorks type stuff. Something that makes every computer immediately useful to a new computer purchaser. It's such a slick machine, I'm sure sitting on the shelf next to a 486/Windows setup, people will be attracted to the Falcon...providing it packs the minimum level of real usefulness right in the box (on the HDisk). I'm not saying Atari should write it, lord knows they're too busy with what they should concentrate on...the OS. The developer community should put together an integrated package...combining cut down versions of many mainstream ST applications. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 187 Tue Sep 08, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 01:36 EDT J.RICHTER, I not the person to tell you all of what Calligrapher can do. I'm just a neophyte user. Drop by the CodeHead/Calligrapher area to get an idea. Better yet, download the demo. Although it is restricted in what it will do, in many ways it is better than having a dealer give you a demo. Import/export modules ('Paks' calligrapherese) are a problem at the moment. The CodeHeads have had overwhelming (I hope) requests for WP and Word modules - although I saw many more requests for WP than Word. Knowing the CodeHeads penchant for customer support, I would expect action. I am curious - how much disk space does Word for Windows use? Calligrapher on my system weighs in at under 2.3 megs including some documents, the full 'Tools' folder (some of which I will never use) and the fonts. I have heard nice things about AmiPro. A little pricey, I understand. I suspect that Word or WP would not sell at all in the Atari arena if they carried their DOS pricing structures over. We in the atari world have been used to paying reasonable sums for good software. To me, $250 is a major software investment. The final selling point for me with Calligrapher was that it would be supported by the CodeHeads. I understand that WordPerfect is also very good at customer support. My dealings in the past with MicroSoft have been less than pleasing. I am lucky in one respect - I can't take my work home, so I don't have to worry about compatability between the machines at work and what I use at home. At work I have to deal with a variety of clones, from XTs through 486s with Windows 3.1 and even a few with O/S 2. There are also a bunch of Macs and a few NeXTs. Most of us head for the Macs when real productivity is the issue. Since the queue for the Macs is normally large, I usually end up using the ancient EDT editor on a VAX 780 in preference to WP 5.1. Yeah, WP will do all sorts of fancy things, but most of the time I don't need those fancies and it is such a pain just to do the basics that I say 'phooey - where is there an empty VAX terminal.' Man, I didn't mean to run on so long - sorry! Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 188 Tue Sep 08, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:07 EDT C.MACLEOD2 - I've heard that WordPerfect for Windows and WordPerfect for Macintosh are being updated to be more like the NeXT version. Supposedly, a barely unfinished version of WordPerfect 5.1 for the ST based on the NeXT version also exists. SLP - That's what I was trying to say, but John seemed to be getting across the idea that having all resolutions on one monitor was virtually impossible. I figured as long as you can convince the Falcon030 that it has either a TV/ST RGB monitor or (S)VGA monitor hooked up to it when it actually has a multiscan/multisync monitor hooked up to it, you should be able to to display ALL resolutions on one monitor. T.GIRSCH - Yeah, I wish Atari would even consider teaming up with someone else (another company/etc.) in order to increase their supply of popular products such as the Lynx. The inability to supply is a huge shortcoming of Atari's. The fact that they STILL aren't able to supply as many Lynx's as are demanded is very disconcerting. Many people here in Athens, GA think the Lynx is practically dead since they haven't been able to buy one anywhere here. Luckily, the local WaldenSoftware just started carrying them, although they only carry a limited number of older Lynx games as a selection. Atari better rectify their ills with the Lynx THIS Christmas season with plenty of supply, plenty of new game releases, and plenty of new retailers carrying the Lynx. Anyway, Atari's 'deadbeat' attitude towards the Lynx adds to my wories about their (in)ability to market the Falcon030. I mean, if they can't even handle the Lynx, a product that is in pretty high demand, properly (by not being able to supply the demand), why should anyone think they'll be able to handle the Falcon030 properly? I seriously think Atari should consider getting some professional help. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 189 Tue Sep 08, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 06:13 EDT J. Richter, This is not the right place for a posting of Calligrapher's features. If you want to know more, why not check out Category 32, Topic 32 and/or read our press release. If you don't have a dealer who'll show you Calligrapher, why don't you try out the demo and see for yourself? It includes a tutorial file that takes you through many of its features. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 190 Tue Sep 08, 1992 S.WINICK at 08:32 EDT Jim (Allen): I fear that the average compute shopper _IS_ going to be comparing the Falcon to an equivalent priced PC-clone. And given the mental prowess of the typical computer salesman, do you really expect many shoppers to really give a 1040-style Falcon a second look when compared to a 486, especially considering all the peer pressure and promises of 'free' (read "Pirated") software from friends and associates? Heck, even a computer salesman knowledgeable with the Atari platform is at an immediate disadvantage when the consumer visually compares a PC clone in a mini or mid-size tower case to the home computer look and feel of a 1040 style machine. You can get around that somewhat with a 1040 selling for around $400 or so, but jack up the price to that of a 486 machine, regardless of what's inside the case, and the "image" is simply wrong. Atari owners and musicians may not have a problem with that 'image', but that is a definite problem when trying to bring in 'new' computer users. When all their friends and associates are telling them that Atari is either out of business or makes only game machines, how many of those shoppers do you think would go out of their way to get a demo of a new machine that even 'looks' like a home game machine? Given the fact also that the Falcon will undoubtedly be available through mail-order marketers at the same cost-plus-nothing pricing that has become commonplace in this market, what possible incentive could there be for a computer dealer/salesman to go out of his way to spend the extra time necessary to 'sell' a shopper on a Falcon instead of taking the 'easy sale' of a PC-clone? These are all marketing problems that need to be properly addressed by Atari and their dealer network if the Falcon is to be successful in the American marketplace. I guess we'll all have the answers in the coming months. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC0 ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 191 Tue Sep 08, 1992 D.FLORY [ALERTsys*Cop] at 09:04 EDT Andy, and books and movies don't make you swear as much as the computer does!! :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 192 Tue Sep 08, 1992 R.WILSON36 [Bob Wilson] at 19:21 EDT Thunderbird et al The vast bulk of humans in North America work for companies that use IBM clones. That being a given they are going to want a machine at home that can at least read and write the files of the common programs which they use. They might consider a FALCON IFF (if and only if for the non math types out there) There is something neat that they can do with a Falcon and can not do with a clone and if they can do work at home without having to jump through hoops to take it back to the office and continue. There are few people who have the bucks or the space to have 2 computers at home. The other alternative is to sell the falcon at game machine prices and that is not feasable. If every serious MIDI user in North America bought a FALCON it would unfortunately not be a lot of sales. Remember if ATARI ships the falcon at 500 dollars per unit it takes 200,000 per year to have 100 million of gross revenue. 1 million units to have 500 million of revenue which is where they were 5 years ago and 2 million units to match CBM. To get sales like this they have to attract the mainstream. MIDI isn't it and DTP is even a smaller market. If it takes bucks to get MS works on the Falcon then spend it. Without at least file compatability the FALCON is dead and so is ATARI. Sad but realistic. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 193 Tue Sep 08, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:42 EDT > "Man... you've been outa the loop to long! and this a $900 with > 640x480x256 system (less monitor). Now lets see, if this is a > Corvette what does that make the Falcon... A motor scutter! > Your analogies are a little adrift there fella!" If that's a Corvette, it's a 1953 with an inline 6, leaky top, side windows which don't roll down, 3 speed transmission, AM radio, bias ply tires, and vinly seats. Therefore making the Falcon a 1993 ZR-1 with ABS, Air, Power windows, brakes, seats (heated), locks, and mirrors, leather upholstery, Bose 8 speaker CD system, 32 Valve 5.7L engine with Tuned Port Injection and 6 speed borg/warner tansmission and traction control. Wait! Sorry... this is a bad analogy. A PC isn't equivalent to a 1953 'Vette, since a 1953 'Vette is worth money. Make it a '73 Plymouth Duster with the same options... > "Just because you don't use modern Word Processing software Please, > Please don't discourage ATARI from trying to get it and add to the > AWSOME power of the Falcon." I didn't know I had so much influence on Atari. I'd better watch what I say from now on. > "Someone said that the midi market is only 3% of the total computer > market.. Now if ATARI could get 20% of 3% hmmm ... thats .15% hmmm > me thinks they need more!" Someone once said that there would be "No new taxes.", but he lied for his own benefit. Perhaps your mysterious 'someone' was a Clone pusher? It would explain his unwillingness to divulge his identity, and his misconstrued 'estimate'. Besides, I said "musicians" and not "MIDI users". Don't confuse a subset of a market with one of it's niches. The PC is a dead-end platform. It needs to be retired. _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 194 Tue Sep 08, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 21:55 EDT TODD: I won't flame you for making personal observations, as I'm sure many people haven't had problems with the ADB connectors (thanks for the name). I was just restating what I've read many times in MacWorld. Live And Direct [12:33 AM-8/Sep/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 196 Tue Sep 08, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 23:51 EDT Sam, I'm not sure that CompuServe allows its conference excerpts to be posted on GEnie in this way. Cool, though, that you included a question from my nephew in Britain, STer Chris Dammers! Didn't realize his mama let him stay up that late! ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 197 Tue Sep 08, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 23:54 EDT Good stuff, thanks for posting it Sam! -Tom McComb ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 198 Wed Sep 09, 1992 DAVESMALL at 00:34 EDT There really is some kinda confusion about the Falcon's video modes. John Townsend has really tried to get across what the story is, but I think there's a gap in that the words he's using aren't familiar to people in the Atari community who are just getting to the wonderful (??) world of VGA and interlacing (e.g., flickering). What would be a constructive way to bring everyone up to speed on precisely what the Falcon will and will not do with what monitor, and if it will flicker while it does it? Offhand, it'd have to say the SC1224 is analog, VGA is digital, SC1224 has 400 pixel height, VGA has 480, analog means "any number of colors", digital means "fixed number of colors", interlace means "migraine" (ask an Amiga user), and so forth. I'm a bit loaded (understatement) or I would write this up for the online mag. People are really confused by all this. Of course, people got really confused when the PC's first went through this gap, too, and I feel for people running 1024 x 768 interlace. Overall, I think John has done a fine job of trying to answer questions. If Jerry Pournelle (and hopefully Roberta and Alex; Alex is the key) are at the show, they ought to just walk away with one of the Falcons, even a pre- release. It runs enough software to be usable. Finally, all of this has made me wonder. Isn't it amazing how many creative people have focused on the Atari and Amiga, and felt an intuitive urge to stay far from the IBM field? (Yes, there are good people in the IBM field -- Tom Hudson's Studio 3-D is excellent). I find it very interesting. Now, if I only had time to go read The Well and USENET. My local USENET feed was cut, no warning, at Boulder. Of course, anyone else in Colorado has to get a passport to go to Boulder, so it's probably no loss. UUNET? -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 199 Wed Sep 09, 1992 CHERRY.FONTS [Todd] at 03:15 EDT Ron, I have a subscription to Macworld and I can't recall having ever read that. Oh well. :-) ..Todd ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 200 Wed Sep 09, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:27 EDT Dave Small - Exactly. I guess that all of these video modes are a little overwhelming (sp?) for us old-time ST'ers who are used to only 3 resolutions. What I really want is to find a solution to the problem of not having access to all resolutions in one monitor, and this seems all too familiar. Of course, if I go the VGA route, it opens up alot more choices (i.e. dot pitch, price, etc.) I still am unsure whether or not a multisync will display all resolutions or not, although I seem to remember someone here mentioning that it might not. The real problem here for me is that as of right now, I have no color monitor since mine died. I'm now having to decide what to replace it with while keeping the Falcon in mind. I think I'll go read Towns' resolution list again...... - Mick ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 201 Wed Sep 09, 1992 STACE [Mark] at 06:51 EDT Yep... I doubt that CIS would appreciate a repost of their conference here on GEnie. Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 202 Wed Sep 09, 1992 S.NOAH [Stu] at 10:42 EDT Mick, I don't know if this will help you but the 'Loop'* multisynch monitor on my PC is switchable between Analog and digital inputs and will display up to 1024x768. I beleive that there are a number of Multisynch monitors that have these capabilities. If some one in the know could clarify the issue; theoretically would such a monitor be able to display most or all the Falcon's video modes ? Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 203 Wed Sep 09, 1992 HISOFT at 13:25 EDT The difficulty with an English version of Tempus Word is that the selling price would work out at $400-$450 and the translation costs would be considerable. How many people would be prepared to pay that sort of money? Dave Nutkins, HiSoft. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 204 Wed Sep 09, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:25 EDT Dave, The only reason you have to get a passport to go to Boulder now is to cut down on the Yuppie hunting. They want to keep them for the scientists to study as a sociological curiosity, but they do realize the consequences of letting them over populate, hence the passports allowing some outsiders in. Take the Uzi next time. ;-) Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 205 Wed Sep 09, 1992 R.WILSON36 [Bob Wilson] at 19:15 EDT Dave at Gadgets, VGA is digital? Limited colors. Someone better tell that to my cheap clone VGA monitor. My ATI card pushes 32000 on screen at 640 by 480. DOesn't sound like TTL to me. Indeed the setting on the ATI setup says ANALOG. Maybe IBMs original VGA was analog but it still had 256,000 color palette so I doubt it. EGA was digital not VGA. The reason you can't have 32000 colors on a VGA in 640 by 480 is that the FALCO hasn't got the bandwidth to update it 70 times a second. Strange that all the slooow clones with lousy video can do it and the FALCON can't. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 206 Wed Sep 09, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 20:04 EDT R.Wilson, Like my unacknowledged message said... the Falcon's video bandwidth appears to be limited to 8Mbytes/sec or less. That would explain why it can't do 640x480x65535 non-interlaced. PC's which have high rez video don't have a common bus between the video ram and the CPU memory. They are separate and communicate thru the slow card slots. :) VGA is digital? That was news to me too. I also knew EGA & CGA were digital, but VGA & SVGA are often analog. Matter of fact, I can't think of a single 'digital' VGA card running in VGA mode of course. I've seen VGA running on monitors in interlace mode before... Of course if the confusion is because Towns is a software guy, I'll give him a break. :) Dave Small, You were *literally* loaded? Like computing under the influence, or like too busy? --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 207 Wed Sep 09, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 20:30 EDT Bob Wilson, >Strange that all the sloow clones with lousy video can do it and >the Falcon can't. That's because video cards have dedicated RAM on board. This slows down processor access to the video RAM, and consequently makes graphics on the PC clones slow unless you have some kind of GUI accelerator card. Then these only work if you've got the correct drivers, and then usually only with a few programs (i.e. AutoCAD and Windows 3.1). It's a trade-off between fast graphics, and high resolution graphics. Atari chose fast graphics. Also remember, the Falcon is not supposed to be a high-end machine. If you want slow high resolution graphics, you can get a TT with a high-res VME graphics card. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 208 Wed Sep 09, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:14 EDT Sam: Excellent post! It brings up some really good points! Congrats Atari on the FCC rating! Mick: I've heard rumors that several companies making Television Sets have added VGA ports to their high-end sets. With such a set, you could theoretically access _all_ the Falcon resolutions, because it's essentially a VGA monitor and TV set (SC1224) sharing the same picture tube. Which brings up another question: what would be involved in making a cable which goes from Falcon030 output to the S-VHS inputs of my entertainment center??? Shouldn't the fact that S-VHS has the signals separated make it extremely easy to do genlock with an S-VHS source?? __________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 209 Wed Sep 09, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:52 EDT Bob Wilson, > Strange that all the sloow clones with lousy video can do it and > the Falcon can't. I have yet to see a low priced VGA card which can do 640x480 in _True Color_. Sure, you can get 640x480x256 (just like the Falcon) for a dime a dozen, but even at that resolution the card is beating it's brains out trying to keep up, while making the CPU wait around like a nerd in a dance club trying to ask a babe for a dance. It's like this in a clone... your friend the CPU is filling a tub with water. Your (VGA card) job is to empty the tub. You have a 5 gallon bucket to empty with, he has a coffee cup to fill with. In order for him to not look like a complete goldbrick, you feed him lots of steroids and shoot him up with speed (33Mhz '486). The problem is that for some reason he has to use a funnel to get his cup to drain in the tub. So, he winds up waiting for the funnel (AT BUS) to drain each time he pours a cup. In the Falcon030, it's like this: You (the VIDEL chip) are given a nice 3 gallon pail to take all the water you need from your friend 68030's reservior (RAM). Sure, your pail is a little smaller, but 68030 is left to do his chores and you don't bother him, except once in a while to open the sluice gate (BLiTTER) to let more water into the reservoir). Don't confuse 1280x1024x16 with _True Color_... move back 2 feet from the monitor screen and 320x200x32767 will have more visible resolution. Really tiny dots are great for some applications, but more colors creates a better picture overall. Just look at how nice your TV picture looks, compared to VGA. The TV has crap for resolution, but many many colors. Therefore, the Falcon030 has a really nice balance of "tiny dot" modes, and "many color" modes. Try and find a clone with this kind of selection. I dare you. ____________________________ \hunderbird P.S. I can't wait to see some standardized "graphics benchmarks" on the clones vs. the Falcon030. Talk about a slaughter. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 210 Wed Sep 09, 1992 D.GORDON2 [DENNIS] at 21:56 EDT I hesitate to jump into this cauldron of mouse-talk, VGA-speak, IBM wars and color coordination angst to pose this: As a non-techie computer user who uses his ST daily for DTP (Calamus etc.) and quite often for MIDI (SMPREtrak), what advantages does the 16mhz 68030 Falcon offer me over the 16Mhz 68000 Mega STE, which everyone seems to agree is a pretty neat machine, and will presumably be discounted a bit more when the Falcons begin to roll. I don't give a hoot about whether or not blah blah wordprocessor is supported or not. I like the productivity software I already have, and will continue to support Atari simply because I like the way the machine works. So what makes the Falcon better for my purposes? ....You may resume your arguing ------------