==================================================================== (C) 1992 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== ************ Topic 20 Thu Aug 01, 1991 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] (Forwarded) Sub: Atari "Falcon" Project The August 1991 ST Format quoted Sam Tramiel mentioning "the Falcon project" and other new ST-based machines other than the ST Book and STylus. They're not rumors if big Sam mentioned them personally! 264 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 1 Sat Aug 15, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 23:43 EDT Wayne, GFA works great on the TT! I've written a couple programs that run in the TT res's no problem at all. The stuff you've tried must be old.:-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 2 Sat Aug 15, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 23:49 EDT The TT/MSTE is in a metal case also. If you scratch that brown paint, you will notice a layer of copper covering the inside of the case. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 3 Sun Aug 16, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 00:57 EDT No Joey, it is not old. I know GFA works on the TT, at least the newer stuff does. I am talking about stuff that needs/needed the 24bit program. GFA Also works on the SST because I tested our BBS program on it. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 4 Sun Aug 16, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 02:12 EDT Rumour du Jour: Someone on Usenet posted Falcon details from the September issue of the UK's Atari ST User and one of the things rumored to happen was a new case design next April. Salt, anyone? :^) Tip du Jour: Read the transcript of the Delphi conference with Sam. There's some more juicy Falcon info in there. I don't know how much of it was said in the one here on Wednesday, but I enjoyed reading it. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 5 Sun Aug 16, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:07 EDT DOUG.W - You mean the "16-bit color mode" not the "262,144 color mode" right? Also, there's the question as to whether it's only the 16-bit color 320x200 resolution that has no palette or if *ALL* 16-bit color modes have no palette. R.WATSON15 - Supposedly, the new serial port will allow higher speeds than 19200, but I don't know how high. Accelerator upgrades will probably be easier in the Falcon 030. Yes, you will be able to hook up virtually any SCSI drive/device. The IDE connector will be inside the machine, so you *SHOULD* be able to just pop one in yourself as with the Amiga 300...er...600. I never put 'crippling' past Atari, though. And like I've said, I'm also worried about the Falcon 030 RAM. If they don't offer the RAM boards for less than $35/MB (maybe $40/MB at the absolute highest), then they're a ripoff as far as I'm concerned. SFRT-ASST - Don't hold your breath on that! It'll probably be at least 8-12 years before HDTV is affordable enough for most people and there won't be many HDTV broadcasts until there are a lot of HDTV viewers out there. Also, the FCC already decided several months ago that the U.S. HDTV standard does *NOT* need to be compatible with existing systems because they felt that that requirement was impeding the development of HDTV and that it was even somewhat unrealistic. SAM-RAPP - You can get an adaptor to use older ACSI/DMA devices with the Falcon's new SCSI II port. Since the SC1224/SC1435 are analog monitors, there's no real limit on the number of colors it can display, but I'm not sure about the resolutions (it may handle higher resolutions in interlaced mode). According to the August issue of ST FORMAT, the Falcon 030 "is reputedly heading for a [British Pounds]550.00 price tag." In actual exchange rates, that's about $1050.00, but it doesn't quite work that way since there are other international economic factors at work. In reality, that would probably work out to around $750, give or take $50. ST FORMAT also says that the Falcon's DSP yields about 13.5MIPS. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 6 Sun Aug 16, 1992 J.LEBLANC3 [Jeff] at 07:26 EDT Relax Mark, Multitos is standard on the Falcon :> ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 7 Sun Aug 16, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 07:27 EDT To: R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] Not just any IDE hard drive a 2 1/2 IDE drive. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 8 Sun Aug 16, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:26 EDT Is there any truth to the rumor that the MultiTOS/Newdesk combo in the Falcon 030 has had improved graphics added to GEM? Even though windoze is Sloooooow, most people seem to think it is much more powerful because of the nifty 3-D buttons, multi-color icons, etc. I'd love to see the Falon with enhanced GEM interface. It would help sell the machine. GEM is too simplistic for the 90's (Despite the fact that it works so well). ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 9 Sun Aug 16, 1992 M.PERDUE [Mario] at 11:00 EDT Wayne, The programs that need the 24bit program to run are using the upper address bits for internal purposes. This causes a problem with the TT because it COULD have memory there. I suspect that this is one of the reasons Atari chose to limit memory to 16/14meg. If you limit your address space to 16Meg, you never need those upper bits. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 10 Sun Aug 16, 1992 J.P.C. at 11:24 EDT ALL: Just to keep things in perspective.... In several advertising supplements of today's Washington(DC)Post, I see ads for 386sx's w/monitor, 80-100Meg HD, 4Meg RAM, DOS/Windows 3.1, Lotus Works, dot-matrix printer for less than $1,000! People buy what they see. The 'Falcon 030' looks GREAT on my SM124 but, unless it gets into the stores BEFORE XMAS, its ALL OVER. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 11 Sun Aug 16, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 12:04 EDT J.P.C. You are right if the Falcon does not make it to Xmas the few dealers that we have left will be very upset. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 12 Sun Aug 16, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 13:22 EDT The Falcon will be "acceleratable" easily, 40 or 50 Mhz would be the target for an 030, if you're going to the trouble of speeding up, why stop at 33 ;-) Atari has been very sensible from the start on upgradablity with the Faclcon. If they can't meet the $35/Meg ram price, I'm sure a 3rd party will. Since the 4 Megabyte size board would require 8 1Megx4 chips, a small PC board, and an inexpensive connector, it should be salable for around $159 retail, or $40/Meg and still make a profit for the developer and dealer. The internal IDE needs to be a 2.5" drive to fit, and I'm sure they'll leave the space there, ready to have a drive slapped in, no tricks, no hurdles, no crippling. There's been a real, fundamental, change in Atari's veiw toward 3rd party enhancements and user upgradeability, and the Falcon will show it. The IDE and SCSI II ports are DMA'd ports. The Blitter chip is used as a generic DMA controller, not only drawing lines on the screen like lightning, but also reading/writing to disk. Something the Mac's lack and could REALLY use ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 13 Sun Aug 16, 1992 DOUG.W [ICD RT] at 14:27 EDT Steve, Yes, I goofed. I meant the 15- or 16-bit color mode. --Doug ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 14 Sun Aug 16, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 14:54 EDT Ed ... From your post #247, I can only assume you did NOT read the transcript of Sam's GEnie RTC last week. I suggest that you do so as it was an excellent conference. It is file #25262. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 15 Sun Aug 16, 1992 L.MCCLURE at 19:51 EDT One of the questions I wanted to ask, but had to leave before I was able to, was whether in the "14 meg" configuration, with 16megs actually installed, if any of the chips other than the CPU could 'see' the missing two megs. If for instance, the blitter could reach into that 2 megs, it could at least be put to use as a RAMdisk. Also, I wonder how difficult it would be for a third party to come up with a way to add RAM above the 16-meg limit. I have seen some folks question why the Falcon does not offer higher resolutions, or more colors at 640x480 (pointing out that you can now get under-$200 VGA cards that have 16-bit, and now, even 24-bit color). Of course, Falcon has one thing those VGA cards don't...it can output those in NTSC format, directly recordable on a VCR with no extra gadgets. The least expensive VGA card I have seen (mailorder) with NTSC output was $349...half the rumored price of the Falcon. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 16 Sun Aug 16, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 21:36 EDT Nathan, I was at the GEnie conference, and I do have the transcript. What I meant was there was some stuff in the transcript that looked new to me - - stuff that I didn't see in the GEnie conference. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 18 Sun Aug 16, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 23:58 EDT KENE: Of course you can't see 525 parallel lines on a television screen. If you have a screen with 525 lines of resolution and you put 525 lines on a screen, you will get a solid color or image. If you can see the individual lines then you're too close to your TV. Don't get me started on HDTV. I can't tell you how angered I was when they decided to make it compatible!!!! It's the same substandard system fiasco (B&W to color)that left us stuck with NTSC all over again! RINGO: I'll meet you over there! FAST TECH: That's exactly what I said about 525 lines of resolution, giving some of those lines away for overscan. MIKE: I was including the vertical sync lines in the overscan. MARK: Funny. I just looked up NTSC in two seperate sources and one of them said National Television Systems Committee. I do believe that the true title is National Televsion Standards Committee (Video Editing and Post-Production: A Professional Guide, 2nd Edition. Gary H. Anderson. Knowledge Industry Publications, 1988) STEVE: Kene was on the money. He was talking about the FCC setting the HDTV standard in the US - not about HDTV getting to the public en masse. It's also looking like the FCC will FORCE HDTV into the consumers' laps as the FCC is STRONGLY urging broadcasters to be HDTV-ready in five years. THUNDERBIRD: I, too, would love to see GEM get a facelift. Gimme 3D buttons, windows, and sliders! Gimme user-selectible colors and multi-color icons! While it couldn't be done effectively with the ST's color and resolution limits, there's nothing stopping GEM with the Falcon!!! Live And Direct [10:26 PM-16/Aug/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 19 Mon Aug 17, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 00:01 EDT Arghh!!! No SIMMs???? The NeXT uses simms, the mac does, PC's do, why don oops! don't they use simms for the falcon? Much less hassle IMO. --Kevin ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 20 Mon Aug 17, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:06 EDT The Falcon only knows about 14 Megs of ram, CPU, blitter, DMA, etc. It is out of the box a 24bit machine...ie, only the first 24 bits of the 68030 address bus are connected to anything. This is REQUIRED in order to be thoroughly compatible with the ST software that is not "32 bit clean". Yes, a 3rd party can add "TT ram" since the OS continues to have all the appropriate support built in. I'd assume that will happen, as I said, this is a VERY EXPANDABLE machine, there are very few limitations. However, adding "TT ram" type boards will change the system into a 32bit device and it will have then have some of the incompatibilities that the TT has. I'd suggest someone doing such a board include a "defeat" to allow return to 24bit-ness. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 21 Mon Aug 17, 1992 C.HOWER [Phoenix] at 00:54 EDT Hey I work at Radio Shack, I hate selling their computers, when I am a dedicated dedicated Atari developer. I wasn ton the RT on here, but I was on the conference with Sam on Delphi, and he was 25 mins late there too. But the conference before he arrived was GREAT. If for some odd reason any one wants that part, I have it. Also, if they don't market, how many of you think the Falcon will pull Atari up that much? I hope it will at least put their sales in the positive direction, unlike lately. I LOVE my Atari, but they are even making me mad. All in all, I an still sending in for my developer upgrades, and will continue to use Atari in the majority. But Atari better do something. I also assume they will eventually make it with a detachable keyboard. A MEGA FALCON? R.WATSON15 RS 233 is the same as RS 232C, yes it is the same as we have now. According to the standard 19,200 is the maximum. But often as in IBM, the hardware will allow a faster nonstandard mode ie 115,000. Also for some unknown reason I like the mushroom keyboards, I think it was because my Spectravideo and Commodores had them. GFA 3.7 is especially designed for the TT. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 22 Mon Aug 17, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:47 EDT According to an article in BYTE (12/89) magazine, the resolution of an NTSC signal is "defined as 512 by 480 pixels interlaced." ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 23 Mon Aug 17, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 03:06 EDT Thunderbird, IMO, those 3D effects should be added into the AES if possible. If you've ever looked at Windows, you'll notice they aren't that complex, so the processor time needed to handle them shouldn't be all that big a deal. This would be an Enhancement. Multi-Colored icons would be an Addition, and it's about time. The catch (there's always a catch), is the pallette. If the pallette is off, the 3D effects and the multi-colored icons look stupid, and the pallette NEEDS to change in some programs. True-Color is the cure, but I'm afraid we'll have to wait a while for 24-bit high-enough resolution graphics. Windows manages the pallette itself, and so it doesn't have this problem. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 24 Mon Aug 17, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 11:07 EDT Ed, The transcript I uploaded to the library was just a 'cleaned up' version of my capture buffer. The only things removed were various /STA command displays, private /SENds, the 'go ahead' notices, etc. I also reformatted some of the text from my capture buffer to improve readability. Then I slapped the copyright and signup information at the top of the transcript and I was done. Aside from the copyright, signup info, and title information (the stuff with the date and Topic Subject and Guest) at the start of the transcript, everything from the formal portion of the RTC is in the transcript and nothing else was added to the transcript contents. Summary, if it was in the formal portion of the RTC, it's in the transcript. If it wasn't in the formal portion of the RTC, it didn't get into the transcript. One thing that I noticed while I was preparing the transcript is that there were a number of things that didn't register with me while the RTC was actually in progress. I read them in my capture buffer as fresh, new material. In my case, I'm very busy during the RTC itself (especially one with over 150 people!) and with everything going on (keeping track of scores of people with questions (there were times when I had over 50 people in queue), letting folks know when their turn is coming up, etc.) so I sometimes 'miss' something that is actually said during the RTC. As with you, some of it seemed new to me too! - Jeff Williams Asst. Sysop ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 25 Tue Aug 18, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:32 EDT D.ENGEL - Yes, according to Atari Journal in Germany, they've seen some screenshots of the Falcon's desktop and that it has 3D buttons and "True-Color- Icons." We should be getting some digitised pics of all this and more late next weekend (or within a few days later). I just hope someone can do some Spectrum digitised pics rather than B&W VIDI pics. K.HOUSER - The NeXT, Mac's, and clones have bigger cases than the Falcon with more room inside for them. I still can't imagine the inside of the Falcon being so jam-packed with stuff there just isn't enough room for SIMM's, though. I've been pricing 2.5" IDE drives and came up with the following Connor drives: CP2024 - 21MB/23ms - $259 CP2044 - 42MB/19ms - $349 CP2064 - 64MB/23ms - $449 CP2084 - 80MB/19ms - $549 Is 80MB about the highest capacity that 2.5" IDE drives go to or are there even higher ones. Also, the *LEAST* Atari could've done was to redesign the 1040-style keyboard. Besides the 'mushy' keyboard, those stupid-looking function keys really do make the computer look extra gamey. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 26 Tue Aug 18, 1992 XXTIMD at 01:20 EDT I do know that IDE drives come smaller and bigger than 2.5" and 80mb. You could probably get a 200mb drive that big or smaller. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 27 Tue Aug 18, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 02:35 EDT The point of the IDE internal is to be truly all-in-one, and it's packed enough in there to require the 2.5" drive and no SIMMs ;-) Today, at retail, the 2.5" drives are at a premium, but that'll change quickly, as PC Notebook computers are selling in greater and greater quantities. If you're on a budget, a cheap Mac SCSI drive is the solution, although the result is a less compact system, but hey, you've got to have somthing to put the monitor on, right? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 28 Tue Aug 18, 1992 J.LEBLANC3 [Jeff] at 20:38 EDT Jim Allen, I was sitting here wondering why they decided to use the old STe style case for the Entry level Falcon. Does it have anything to do with the case/shielding being a proven design (thereby hopefully allowing them to quickly pass FCC class B cert). If this is the case, then Atari should really not have any problems getting the machines out in a significant quantity since they will not have to make significant design changes to get them out the door. Is this a correct assumption? Atari's past record with the FCC leaves me feeling alittle apprehensive, but hopefully, going with the proven design will allow them to get the machine out much more quickly. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 29 Tue Aug 18, 1992 SLP at 21:27 EDT I don't understand the FCC problems at all. You know ahead of time whether or not the item passes. You do your own testing (or hire some lab to do it for you) and then just send the report to the FCC. Every once and a while the FCC requests a sample to test on their own, but usually just takes the report data and gives a certification ID #. At least that's how I understand the process to be. Scott ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 30 Tue Aug 18, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:25 EDT Since Atari is a big computer maker...in # of units...they are like the poor sap that gets audited by the IRS every year. They are the kind of company the FCC takes a close look at, because the number of units could be very high. It probably was a factor in picking the 1040 case. I think compactness and cost were the overriding reasons though. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 31 Wed Aug 19, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:36 EDT Well, after reading about some of the features of the new Amiga's, I think there's sort of a trade off when comparing them to the Falcon 030. The new Amiga's and the new Amiga chipset has some better graphics capabilities than the Falcon 030, but the Falcon 030's audio capabilities are better. The new Amiga's also reportedly have an AT&T DSP chip. The new Amiga chipset reportedly supports a 24-bit palette (16.7 million colors) and supports resolutions up to 1280x960, although some of the higher resolutions are interlaced modes and I believe the standard most number of colors that the lower resolutions support is 256 (although there's a 256,000 color HAM mode). Also, the new Amiga machines only have 8-bit stereo recording at 22kHz abilities built into the machines. Keep in mind this is only what I've *READ* about in some Amiga-related publications. The only big plus I see for the new Amiga's is that they will have several 030 *AND* 040 machines out by the beginning of 1993, whereas Atari won't have faster 030 and 040 machines until later next year. It *DOES*, however, appear that the Falcon 030 may very well beat the first new Amiga's to market, although the new Amiga chipset may be released sooner. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 32 Wed Aug 19, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:45 EDT I would think that if the case design choice relied on whether or not it had already gotten an FCC Class B, they could have also gone with the MSTE case. These days, case design is no big deal to me. Sure, I prefer the MSTE external keyboard and all, but it won't deter me from the Falcon just because it's in the 1040 style case. It's power far outweighs the importance of what it looks like physically. They should've at least improved the feel of the keyboard. There are still the Mega Touch spring kits though. The fact that Atari has managed to leave room in the case for an internal drive sure shows that they've done some serious compacting of the internals of the machine. I think the ideal situation would be to have a smallish (20-40 meg) internal drive for "on-the-road" situations, like when I bring mine to user group meetings, and then have a nice, big external SCSI drive for "at home" use. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 33 Wed Aug 19, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:48 EDT Steve... Hmmmm... Have you used AmigaDOS? The Amiga with 24bit color.. the last time I heard was fairly expensive.. and don't forget 1280x960 color monitors are EXPENSIVE, for that kind of dough are you going to deal with FLICKER?... but talking chips and published marketing hipe on either side does not usually decide the SPEED winner.. its complete system design... and the Falcons Parallel DSP/030 concept appears to be the winner to me....ESPECIALLY with the Jim Allen 040 add-on? .... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 34 Wed Aug 19, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 05:09 EDT They could have used the old Mega style case also. The old Megas had a shield and a seperate keyboard. They wouldn't have had to design another case either. It would have also allowed greater expandability. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 35 Wed Aug 19, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 10:19 EDT The Amiga's top mode is 1280 x 200 interlaced. Amiga video is great for genlocking and titling, but it does and has always stunk for DTP. And the OS and applications can't just up and run on _any_ resolution oyu slap in. The Mac is the most flexible video-wise, the Falcon is next, then the PC. And the Falcon-PC gap is a wide one ;-) Remember, most programs on the PC can't deal with anything past 640x480 without a specific driver in that program for your particular video card. It's a pain. The Falcon is neat. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 36 Wed Aug 19, 1992 XXTIMD at 21:07 EDT The Amiga OS does have some good things to it though. For one, its multi tasking is great. Ever since the first Amiga 1000, commodore has incorporated multitasking in the OS. Even though you need a driver for Windows and such for the PC, its really not that hard to do it anyways. While it sometimes can be a pain, its not big deal, really. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 37 Wed Aug 19, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 21:31 EDT So, did they ever change those ugly yellow keys to something more tolerable? :- ) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 38 Thu Aug 20, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 01:05 EDT We're back to comparing computers. When I got my ST a week after my chief engineer got his Amiga (in 1985) we decided it was a silly comparison. They're two entirely different machines made for different purposes. When the Falcon has the software the Amiga and the Toaster have, I'd like to read a comparison. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 39 Thu Aug 20, 1992 CBARRON at 01:39 EDT XXTIMG - Multitos is standard with the falcon. It does multitask..... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 40 Thu Aug 20, 1992 XXTIMD at 02:38 EDT CBARRON: True, but 1) you have no idea how MultiTOS performs, since it is not out yet(although indications are good). 2) you can multitask at a fairly good pace with an Amiga 500 and don't need the best Amiga around to do that(Although the Falcon is priced comparibly to an Amiga 2000, which by the specs, outperforms it). Remember, "The best specs in the world don't mean diddly if it doesn't have any software." (don't know what it has to do with this message, but its a good thing to remember nonethless). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 41 Thu Aug 20, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 06:45 EDT J.RICHTER - I just said it had a 24-bit palette, but only supports 256 colors in its 'normal' modes. Also, Commodore will have more attractive desktop models (and 68040 models) of their new machines long before Atari will. Don't take this as meaning that I'd rather have an Amiga because I wouldn't. If I leave Atari, it'll be for a Mac or PowerPC (if I stay with Atari through '94), or preferably a NeXT if I can ever afford one. To me, AmigaDOS is the next less-desirable OS to those available on the IBM clone platform. J.ALLEN27 - I know the *CURRENT* top mode (isn't it called "productivity mode" or some stupid thing like that? ) on the Amiga is 1280x200, but the *NEW* chipset and/or next generation Amiga's reportedly allow up to 1280x960 interlaced. However, I believe it also has to interlace its 320x480 and 640x480 (and 800x600) modes, which puts the Falcon above it as far as non- interlaced resolutions are concerned. As I've said before, I personally don't really need anything more than 640x480 for anything and am fully aware that not even the IBM clones have very many pieces of software that support any resolutions higher than 640x480x256 (if even *THAT* many colors), but a lot of people only look at general specifications and may be far more impressed with machines that offer 1024x768 and 1280x960 resolutions than one that only offers a 'measley' 640x480. I'm not concerned that the Falcon won't offer me personally what I need or want capabilities-wise, but rather that it (i.e. the Falcon *AND* Atari) won't do anything to improve the userbase and, therefore, support for the platform. One thing I'd like to know is if Atari will *FINALLY* get FSM GDOS out by the time the Falcon 030's released? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 42 Thu Aug 20, 1992 M.KOHL1 [ZIPPY] at 09:43 EDT Multitos! The C-R-U-N-C-H-I-E-S-T new snack chip! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 43 Thu Aug 20, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 12:24 EDT Steve.. The Amiga is just getting around to getting 8bit color. They won't actually have anything higher in production until the middle of next year (or so I have read..) Falcon030 will have been around for some time at that point. Wayne.. I am pretty sure that production machines will not have yellow keys! -- John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 44 Thu Aug 20, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 23:17 EDT STEVE: I sure hope that's true about 3D "truecolor" icons. GEM shure started looking rather wimpy compared to Windows and System 7 elements. And I love a good- looking desktop! Live And Direct [12:11 AM-19/Aug/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 45 Fri Aug 21, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 01:02 EDT John, Re: Yellow Keys.... Thank God!!!! --Kevin PS. I was a little disappointed that Falcon won't have 24bit color, especially at 800x600 or better. I was looking forward to editing scanned 24bit color photos & outputting them to a film recorder. Hmm... what to do... --Kevin ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 46 Fri Aug 21, 1992 CBARRON at 01:19 EDT xxtmg - the beta's I saw performing ALL DAY in toronto were just fine. that was April. Is this falcon an ameoba killer? No different markets. Will it replace intel or mac? No chance. Is it a very good choice for an entry computer. Yes. There is and will be software if anything the falcon is MORE ST COMPATIBLE than the TT. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 47 Fri Aug 21, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 04:11 EDT TOWNS [John@Atari] (or Bill, Bob, Sam, etc...) IMHO, it would be a wonderful thing to see, here in these very accessable GEnie librarys, a nice Falcon 030 write up/press release complete with some nice GIF pictures etc... on the DAY OF THE DUSSELDORF show. Produced by Atari and uploaded by Atari. I think it would be a very nice gesture towards all of us who have supported Atari over the years and as an indication of Atari's commitment to support the USA marketplace. I truly belive that the company has take a new and better direction, and I wholeheartedly plan to support Atari in the future. I would love to see official releases of information, when the time is right, uploaded by a reliable and trustworthy source, because for the time being, a lot of people in this country can't drive to a local dealer to see a new product, or even a brochure. I fully expect that to change in the future as the Falcon puts Atari back in the mainstream of the computer buying public. Thanks for listening......... -----> Sam ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 48 Fri Aug 21, 1992 AFINKEL [andy] at 17:18 EDT Actually, Steve, the current ECS Amiga can do 640x480 non-interlaced, and 1280x400 interlaced. Until the WOC show in September, things will be unclear as to that the new stuff can do; personally, I always study rumored specs of new machines very closely, to understand the implications, as well as the claims. andy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 49 Fri Aug 21, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 19:48 EDT SAM-RAPP [<>] Im sure if there was some good GIF pictures of the inner workings of the Falcon (Mother-Board, IDE drive, ports, Key-Board etc..) genie would make alot of money in downloads. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 50 Sat Aug 22, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:32 EDT Falcon "L:IST PRICE $799 ...STRIPPED .... $1399 FOR 65MEG AND 4MEG MEM HMMMMM WISH'IN IT $1399 FOR 16MEG MEM.. BUT IF YOU CAN BE UP A DEAL ON THE STRIPPED ONE ($600)SPEND ALL YOUR DOUGH ON THE 16MEG UPGRADE..(MAYBE $500) AND YA ALREADY HAVE A BIG SCSI DRIVE.. YOUR IN GRAPHIC AND SOUND CITY!!! JERRY RICHTER ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 51 Sat Aug 22, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 01:41 EDT Don't forget the VGA monitor and speakers, and the upgrade to MultiTos and FSMGDOS (yeah right!). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 52 Sat Aug 22, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:04 EDT SAM-RAPP - I agree that Atari should put something here on GEnie to coincide with the Duesseldorf AtariMesse. I *WOULD* be a nice gesture on Atari's behalf. Sam said he wanted to save some info for the AtariMesse, but now that it's started, the least Atari could do is post the 'official' information here. I'd hoped there would be something here tonight for us, but *NOTHING*. Thank you oh so very much, Atari! You know, other (i.e. 'real') companies who care about P&R have official press releases and such that they *LOVE* to give out, but I guess the mere pennies that it may cost Atari here are just too much for the Tramiels to justify the expense. Sounds like the Forbes article was pretty damn accurate. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 53 Sat Aug 22, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 03:06 EDT Sam.. unfortunately, the people who would do such a release are in Germany at the show. And the show is going on right now. However, I will be happy to answer any questions that I can. Please keep in mind that I don't know anything about the marketing except that we have a group of people working hard on it. But, fire away. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 54 Sat Aug 22, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 07:48 EDT Well, Atari employees... I'm showing my support. I bought a nice amount of Atari stock for starters. Heck, it can't get much cheaper. I figure if you guys market the Falcon & Lynx, I'll see some *NICE* returns on my investment, yet I can't really lose unless Atari goes under (which false prophets have been predicting for at least 7 years [8^). Don't let us down on the marketing end of things. With the outcome of the Nintendo case, maybe someone will finally listen in the marketing dept. Hey, any chance the Lynx could get a TV retrofit like the NEC protable game system? The Nec unit is WAY cool in that the same game cards as the console also work on the hand-held & it can be used as a TV too. --Kevin ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 55 Sat Aug 22, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:41 EDT Towns: Here is a lits of the most frequently asked questions, minus the questions about advanced models and marketing strategies... Fire 1: Does the Falcon 030 come with MultiTOS. I mean, is it done and ready and shipping in Falcons, or will it be an 'upgrade'? Fire 2: Has GEM been tweaked up with nice multi-colored (aka more than 2) Icons and Gadgets? Maybe even 3-D like buttons, etc? Fire 3: In a 14 meg unit, where the 68030 doesn't "see" the last 2 megs, did you guys at least give the hardware access to it? Like, could it be used by the sound stuff, or the blitter? Is there possibly a way of "bank switching" ala 130XE, which lets me use the RAM for anything? (I mean my whole computer only has 2 megs now, so it seems like a waste to not have access to it) I don't suppose that the Falcon RAM card only has 14 megs populated? Opinion around here says that it has the full 16 on it. Fire 4: What is the difference about VGA monitors which won't let the Falcon do 16 bit color in 640x480 mode, yet it will work with a TV? I was always under the impression that TV was poor quality and that monitors were much better. Is it because of the interlacing? Fire 5: Will I be able to take advantage of the new resolutions on my SC1224? If so, will they suffer because the monitor is outdated? Fire 6: Does the BLiTTER and other hardware video features work in ALL resolutions? The BLiTTER seems to be set up for the 4 plane, 2 plane, and 1 plane modes of the ST. Have to new modes been designed to fit the Blitter, or the other way around? How about horizontal and vertical scrolling? Overscan? Fire 7: How much does it cost to become a Falcon Developer? What would one get from Atari if one were to register? Fire 8: Will MultiTOS really be able to run concurrently such existing programs like Pagestream, DynaCADD, Aladdin, etc? Or, will only special versions run with it? Also, is there a "I'm a bad program and I only run when I have the whole system" mode, which will allow poorly written programs to run? Fire 9: What portions of MultiTOS are on disk? Does this mean that perhaps periodic upgrades to the disk portions of MultiTOS will be available on the Official Online Service of Atari Corp? Why put it on disk in the first place? It's not a RAM hog like windoze, is it? Fire 10: Can you tell us about any potential uses for the DSP, other than the sound processing capabilities? Thanks for taking the time to read and consider these questions, which have been nagging at us all for so long. It seems like every answer spawns 10 more questions, but any information is truly appreciated. thanks. ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 56 Sat Aug 22, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 11:12 EDT TBird, the 16Meg board will only allow 14Megs to be accessed. The ROMS have 1Meg of the memory map, and IO devices have another 1Meg. The Blitter needs to acces the ROMS and the IO devices. SO nothing that could use the access will be able to, that's life. Why is it so hard to understand? If you take a Mac Plus or Classic, stuff a 68030 board in, and stuff 16Megs on ram on it, you will still only get access to 14Megs of it...for exactly the same reason. A 16Meg upgrade should be around $399 from 3rd parties, based on the price of 4Meg Drams these days. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 57 Sat Aug 22, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 12:11 EDT THERE ARE SOME GOOD QUESTIONS THERE D.EGEL, but shouldn't one o the SYSOPS move this ver to the REAL Falcon030 topic?! ;-) In Cat 14. ANd John Townsend- I'd really like it if you would list out in table form (like in Atari Advantage- but that is unofficial suspect info) ALL of the video modes. Lot's of conflicting/confusing info floating around. ?K is amount of RAM a screen of this mode uses. Mode Name | Resolution | Bit Planes | Colors | Palatte | ?K | Monitor ======================================================================== This would be GREAT! Thanks! -Tom McComb {12:02 pm} Saturday, August 22, 1992 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 58 Sat Aug 22, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 13:12 EDT John@Atari----What I would most like to see are some pictures in GIF format. The reason is that there are no Atari dealers within 300 miles of me... No local book stores carry ANY Atari magazines and I've never been one to subscribe to a magazine I've never seen. Such as things are, I rely on GEnie as my ONLY source of information for Atari news. Maybe some of the folks at Lexicor could send up some good GIF pics. As for the Falcon specs... I think you guys are doing a GREAT job this time around at keeping us informed... and I look forward to the drive to Ashville to get a Falcon from Sheldon as soon as they are available...... ----------> Sam ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 59 Sat Aug 22, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 16:22 EDT SAM and BOB, After reading ST Report..(That may always be a mistake) I was slightly depressed again... NO FALCONS IN THE US TILL MAYBE APRIL '93 Townsand... Be aware, as you probably already know.. any more.... tricks/half-truths from ATARI.. even the MOST faithfull are.. OUTAHERE!! Quote: "Falcons will arrive in the US by mid/late October" and others will follow perhaps later in November... IN TIME FOR CHRISTMAS.. If Falcons are not at OUR US dealers by Christmas week.. while abundantly available in Europe... you guys best not show your faces around here.. This is FACT not emotion.. WE HAVE SUFFERED ENOUGH!!!! I will cancel my Genie account and be an Anti-Atari spooksman like some of my other friends with less staying power than I.. If you come through... just this once.. you can help mend the wounds... and have many of us preaching the ATARI line once again......... ATARI, The Choice is Yours.. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 60 Sat Aug 22, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 16:52 EDT Thundrebird, I can answer some of these. #5 You'll be able to use your old monitor with an adapter, and it will work with any resolution with 200 horizontal lines. The number of colors doesn't matter. You'll want a new monitor for the higher resolutions. #9 >Why put it on disk anyway? That's where a large complex operating system belongs. The main reason to have TOS in ROM is so you can use the system without a hard drive. You can't realistically run more than one application at a time unless you have a hard drive anyway, so Multi-TOS should be on the hard drive for upgrade purposes, and to save ROM space. #10 Lots of DSP uses. I hear rumblings of "realtime-raytracing". Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 62 Sat Aug 22, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 17:25 EDT 1. To my knowledge, MultiTOS is NOT currently shipping with the Falcon030 machines in Germany. I don't know when that will happen, but we still have some work to do on MultiTOS. 2. The Falcon030 version of TOS (known as TOS 4.0) has numerous new features. They include support for DMA sound playback and record, DSP support, 3D objects (the windows from the desktop are 3D), sub-menus and popups built into the OS, and up to 256 color icons. 3. Currently, the extra 2 megabytes is not available for use in Falcon030. They do have the full 16 megabytes on the board. 4. True Color, 640x480 on a VGA monitor is too much bandwidth for the video hardware to handle. TV modes look okay, but I think the best route is an Atari color monitor (the same as the current Atari Color monitor). 5. Yes. And no.. the new modes look fine on a SC1224. 6. There is a re-designed BLiTTER in the video chip that runs at 16Mhz instead of 8Mhz and is used in all modes. Overscan is built-in and Hardware scrolling works the same as the STE. 7. The developer information has not changed. You should talk with Gail Bacani at Atari. 8. If you have a bad program, you should pressure the author of the program to fix it. However, if you run that program as the only program in the system, it will probably work. Besides, since current versions of MultiTOS are soft-loaded, you can disable MultiTOS when you boot up your system for those annoying programs. And yes, MultiTOS does run existing applications concurrently. There are some programs that don't work, but the major applications are running now or may require a small update. 9. MiNT and the new AES are on disk. The VDI and the lower level OS functions are used out of ROM. MultiTOS does use some RAM, how much I am not sure about. As for availability of MultiTOS.. I have no idea when that will happen and how it will happen. 10. Well, it can be used for decompress of JPEG pictures. We are already doing that here at Atari. How about a modem? There are DSP modems out there that are just an adapter that plugs into the DSP port and processes the analog signals from the modem. If there is anything else.. or you would like me to expand on something, please feel free to jump in and ask. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 63 Sat Aug 22, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 21:27 EDT To: SAM-RAPP [<>] Even if you did Subscribe to an Atari ST mag they would prob go bankrupt (Like all the others have). Where do you live at? (City/State) To: J.Richter Lighten up dude. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 64 Sat Aug 22, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 22:03 EDT Resolutions available on the Atari Falcon030 (c) 1992 Atari Corp. Written by John Townsend ========================================================================= This document may be re-printed again and again as long as the Atari copyright remains intact. ========================================================================= A couple of notes: Unlike previous machines, there are just too many resolutions to give each resolution a name. Therefore, I will do my best to describe what the resolution is and which monitor it is on. - NOTE: TV and a Color Monitor are the same.. by Color Monitor, I am talking about the standard SC1224. By VGA, I mean a standard VGA Monitor. 40 column modes ( "column" means the number of x pixels divided by 8) --------- ------ 4 color, normal, TV: 320x200, 4 colors, 2 planes 16 color, normal, TV: 320x200, 16 colors, 4 planes 256 color, normal, TV: 320x200, 256 colors, 8 planes True color, normal, TV: 320x200, true color 4 color, interlace, TV: 320x400, 4 colors, 2 planes 16 color, interlace, TV: 320x400, 16 colors, 4 planes 256 color, interlace, TV: 320x400, 256 colors, 8 planes True color, interlace, TV: 320x400, true color 4 color, normal, VGA: 320x480, 4 colors, 2 planes 16 color, normal, VGA: 320x480, 16 colors, 4 planes 256 color, normal, VGA: 320x480, 256 colors, 8 planes True color, normal, VGA: 320x480, true color 4 color, line-doubling, VGA: 320x240, 4 colors, 2 planes 16 color, line-doubling, VGA: 320x240, 16 colors, 4 planes 256 color, line-doubling, VGA: 320x240, 256 colors, 8 planes True color, line-doubling, VGA: 320x240, true color 80 column modes --------------- 2 color, normal, TV: 640x200, 2 colors, 1 plane 4 color, normal, TV: 640x200, 4 colors, 2 planes 16 color, normal, TV: 640x200, 16 colors, 4 planes 256 color, normal, TV: 640x200, 256 colors, 8 planes True color, normal, TV: 640x200, true color 4 color, interlace, TV: 640x400, 4 colors, 2 planes 16 color, interlace, TV: 640x400, 16 colors, 4 planes 256 color, interlace, TV: 640x400, 256 colors, 8 planes True color, interlace, TV: 640x400, true color 2 color, normal, VGA: 640x480, 2 colors, 1 plane 4 color, normal, VGA: 640x480, 4 colors, 2 planes 16 color, normal, VGA: 640x480, 16 colors, 4 planes 256 color, normal, VGA: 640x480, 256 colors, 8 planes 4 color, line-doubling, VGA: 640x240, 4 colors, 2 planes 16 color, line-doubling, VGA: 640x240, 16 colors, 4 planes 256 color, line-doubling, VGA: 640x240, 256 colors, 8 planes and lastly.. there are compability modes for ST Low, ST Medium, and ST High on both VGA monitors and SC1224 monitors. (On a color monitor, ST High is achieved by using the interlace mode). Also, the ST Monochrome monitor (the SM124) will work with Falcon030 as well. However, it only supports one resolution: ST High Resolution. All modes on a TV can be overscanned. This means multiplying the X and Y resolution by 1.2. For example, modes with 320 pixels of horizontal resolution (X res) will become 384 pixels across, and modes with 640 pixels will become 768 across. Overscanning is done in the X and Y resolution. You can't do them independently. Special Note: On a VGA monitor, overscan is "faked".. since the video hardware doesn't have the capability to do overscan on a VGA monitor, we made it so that if a overscan mode is set on a VGA monitor, you still see the normal size screen, but the screen is a window onto the bigger overscanned image. Make sense? We did this for compatibility. This way if a game that has an overscanned starup picture can use the same pic on both the VGA monitor and the TV monitor. Pretty cool, eh? BTW.. Overscan can NOT be set from the desktop. The AES and Desktop will work just fine with it, but because you can't see the parts of the screen, we thought that that option shouldn't be available from the desktop. We don't want to confuse people. However, Overscan can be set using a new XBIOS call (Vsetmode()).. so it is still available. I hope I haven't made any mistakes. I triple-checked this document in search of errors and I couldn't find any. If you do find some, send me Email on GEnie (to TOWNS) or CIS (70007,1135) and let me know. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. PS. Anyone would would like to reprint this message, please do so! The smaller the number of times I have to type that message, the more my fingers with thank you! ;-) After looking at this one more time.. one point to clear up: By saying SC1224 Color Monitor, I mean any Color Monitor that Atari have manufactured for the ST/Mega/STE/MegaSTE computers. Clear as mud? ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- I will see about getting some GIF pictures up here. I don't have any and I don't know how I would go about creating them. I don't have the tools myself. I will check into this. As for the delivery date of Falcon030. I will stick by what Sam says. He has the information that would allow for the most accurate date. I would take everything I read from other sources with a grain of salt. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 65 Sat Aug 22, 1992 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 22:38 EDT Towns, I, for one, appreciate the straight forward answers. A sincere thanks for the time you spend online here. Regards, Peter Now, back to our regularly scheduled bashing.(GRIN...It's a joke!) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 66 Sat Aug 22, 1992 D.FLORY [ALERTsys*Cop] at 23:03 EDT J.Richter - if Atari is the only reason you have a GEnie account you're missing an awful lot. I started here because of Atari being here, but now I have my own RT and log into 6 others every day and another 6 on weekends. If you get fussed at Atari, that's no reason to go off in a huff. I've gotten pretty frosted at both Atari Corp's from time to time, GEnie is not the same thing. (When I say both Atari's I mean Jack's and the one that preceded him, while he was Commodore.) Dave Flory, ALERTsys*Cop 19:14 PDT - 08/22/92 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 67 Sat Aug 22, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 23:16 EDT Thank you John! I don't know why people say those awfull things about you! Half of them aren't even true. Seriously, thanks for clearing up those video modes! -Tom ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 68 Sat Aug 22, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 23:35 EDT So we shouldnt believe rollout will begin in the USA Immediately or not? When does everyone get back from Germany so my phone bill will finally go down and we can get the whole scoop??? p.s. I liked it when I called Atari for a technical question, and actually got, " I really dont know" as the answer ... Curt ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 69 Sat Aug 22, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:39 EDT Thanks John, for the great answers. It's really cool to be able to ask them, and have you allowed to answer them (finally). Here's one someone asked me: who makes a joystick that is Falcon compatable. I know a lot of games which would be awesome if used with the analog ports. Next question: (Now we're down to nitty gritty) Does the printer port still come from the AY-3-8910 sound chip? That chip has failed in many ST's I've seen. Perhaps it is buffered. Speaking of the Yamaha chip... is it connected through the same audio outs as the rest of the sound hardware? Is it stereo separated? (Not that anyone would use it anymore, with the DMA sound. Grin) Serial Port? Maximum speed? I understand it's not a 68901 port anymore, so it cannot suffer from the hardware glitch in the interrupt priorities which ST's have. LAN port: Any chance of configuring it as an RS-232 port too? Oh, yeah. About the video... in the interlaced modes, does that cause the Vertical Blanking Interrupt to happen at 30Hz instead of 60Hz? Also, when a SM124 is connected, does it refresh at 70Hz? What if the color monitor is used, what's the refresh? How about interrupt structure? Is there a flexible and cool interrupt structure present like in the ST? Can I intercept horizontal and vertical blanking interrupts, serial port interrupts, and are there oodles of timers which I can use for programs? How's this for an esoteric question? Would you say that TOS4.0 and the new GEM blows windoze out of the water? Are window updates quick and screen draws fast? I'd really love to put it next to the super '486 at work, and thumb my nose at them for buying it. You can't quote specs and expect them to understand, so you have to show it graphically outperform the PC (the ST does it now, but I figured there's a lot of overhead in those high color modes). Is that JPEG compression in Real-Time? What software will be packaged with the Falcon? Will Atari be spreading demos and such in PD to show off the Falcon's immense capabilities? That's enough for now. thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 70 Sat Aug 22, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 23:43 EDT Towns. Oh, thanks for the great info. about the Falcon. It is very nice to see ATARI personal post all of this great stuff. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 71 Sun Aug 23, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 00:15 EDT John, Thank-you for the article (it goes above and beyond a post )!! Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 72 Sun Aug 23, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:23 EDT J.RICHTER - Who said that? (ST Report isn't worth the download at *ANY* cost to me.) If that's true (i.e. if, God forbid, ST Report is accurate in its 'reporting,' to use the term in its loosest possible sense ), then that is a *HUGE* letdown, especially since just a week and a half ago Sam said they'd show up here in mid-October. I mean, I *KNEW* not to take that as the truth then, but a 6 month delay is &@^$%(! ridiculous. However, I trust neither Atari nor ST Report about equally, so who knows *WHEN* the Falcon 030 will actually arrive here. I'm still quite willing to believe that the Falcon 030 will be available here by year's end. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 73 Sun Aug 23, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:00 EDT Genie, Sorry for the EMOTION of the minute.. BUT I hope you realize by now that if there is any way to SLANT the news AGAINST ATARI, ST Report will do it every time! They do it in sneaky ways... while acting loyalist in the beginning of the news letter... there is always some clever ATARI bashing mingled in ... just to burst your bubble.. they sometimes have long articles about other HIGH end systems.. system we don't care about!! I mean it would be nice to have a couple PGS hints instead.. Anyway.. I hope their little dealer meeting quotes where not correct!! Dealers are just barely hangin in there and (1)more Christmas without a new ATARI product will just KILL IT!! Lighten UP! ... if ATARI blows this Christmas my 2000 shares of stock are history!! Jerry Richter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 74 Sun Aug 23, 1992 B.KING8 [Brien King] at 01:25 EDT Hey John, Thanks for the Video info. Now I have a couple of questions. 1) I understand that the Falcon uses a 15/16 Bit Video mode. How does the 16th bit come into play? RGB would be 15bits, does the 16th get used as a "Half-Bright" bit or something along that line? And if in "overlay" mode do the colors drop from 65,536 to 32,768? 2) Please explain overlay mode is as much detail as humanly possible. 3) Even though the Falcon does not have a second floppy port, is everything still there if I wanted to add a second port? 4) Is the Daughter board connector a straight connector to the RAM Chips? In otherwords, is there any extra logic circuts on the Daughter board or is it controled by the motherboard? 5) Does the 4meg Falcon come with a Daughter board or is the 4megs on the Mother board? 6) Does Rsconf() support speeds higher then 19,200. If so, what numbers are the highest rates since 0 was the highest? Well that should do it for now :-) Thanks. Brien King ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 75 Sun Aug 23, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 01:38 EDT Open your mind and you will hear.... all the things that are clear... look at things now that you are here. Lets see what is near.... The future! So lets start working on the Ideas. Make them work do something usefull. Think about MultiMedia from the Falcon...Colors and sounds and more. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 76 Sun Aug 23, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 02:39 EDT The Falcon has no main ram on the motherboard, it's on the daughter board, and it is a simple ram chip board, no extra "stuff" required. Any 3rd party will be able to make their own, even the big dealers can make house brand boards. Which is really quite a nice turn of events!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 77 Sun Aug 23, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:48 EDT Here's in idea for you Towns... Is there any way you can do a screen capture of the desktop, you know, with a few windows open and some icons showing, and send it up here as a GIF file to tease us with? As silly is it may seem, an improved look to GEM and the desktop could be a factor in whether or not the Falcon catches people's attention. I believe that is one reasons people like Windows. People like it at first glance because it's "pretty". Funny thing is, that's about the only reason I like it at all! Heck, just the addition of colors to the windows in the STE's makes them nicer to look at. I too appreciate your comprehensive and quick response to the question of the resolution specs. Now, how does one go about choosing between all of these resolutions? From a _long_ dropdown menu? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 78 Sun Aug 23, 1992 B.KING8 [Brien King] at 04:15 EDT Jim - So what you are saying is that ALL RAM for the Falcon whether its 1Meg or 16Meg is on a Daughter board and there are ZERO ram chips on the motherboard? (Please say "YES!"). If that is the case, it could be a simple matter of desoldering the current chips, putting in sockets and then putting in the DRAMS you wanted when you could afford it. (Hmmmm... maybe some SIMM Sockets? ) Brien King ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 79 Sun Aug 23, 1992 R.WILSON36 [Bob Wilson] at 08:03 EDT JOHN When will docs on the new system calls be available to those who have chosen level 2 developer status (ie not real developers but bought the existing docs)? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 80 Sun Aug 23, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 08:52 EDT John, the 640x480 and 640x240 VGA true-color modes are conspicuous by their absence in your post. Did you forget, or aren't they there? I'm posting the specs in the lunchroom at ICOM Simulations (where I get paid to draw monsters for CD games), and have thoroughly entranced the hardware hackers with them... I *know* I want one for my office *and* another for the apartment... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 81 Sun Aug 23, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 09:54 EDT To: Towns I would figure Atari Would have the proper tools to make pictures. :) To: J.Richter Your prob the only one that has stock in Atari its along way from the 1983 stock price. Get a Investment Broker to better utilize your money. :) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 82 Sun Aug 23, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 11:24 EDT PETER - I nominate TOWNS to be Director of Communications for Atari US! We learn more from him than the other guy! STEVE - JERRY My dealer attended the CT show and has confirmed that he was told by Atari US that the Falcon would _not_ be available to dealers before Christmas. He also confirmed the announcement of second quarter '93 availability. He also confirmed the "shouting match" and disgruntlement of many in attendance. Judging from his comments, the report in STR was accurate. Is it "Atari bashing" to report this news? We all want to hear "good news" about Atari, but when the source of the news is Atari itself and it isn't good news, why blame STR? Kill the messenger syndrome? Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 83 Sun Aug 23, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 11:53 EDT TOWNS - You said "MultiTOS is NOT currently shipping with the Falcon030 machines in Germany." So the Falcon030 is shipping in Germany NOW? Also, in the conference, Sam mentioned that there was also an interlaced-only 16-bit 640x480 mode. Is that wrong or did you miss that in your list? And thanks for the great postings, by the way! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 84 Sun Aug 23, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 12:37 EDT My local dealer was also at the infamous CT trade show. I should be able to confirm the reports about "shouting matches" and release dates this week also. Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 85 Sun Aug 23, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 13:03 EDT I believe there is a 640x400 _interlaced_ true color mode. Remember, the limit in this is hte maximum data rate of data coming out of memory and feeding into the video hardware. 640x400 TC takes TWICE the memory bandwidth as 640x400 _interlaced_ TC. So 640x200 TC and 640x400 _interlaced_ TC require the SAME data rate from memory. There is a maximum limit, and Atari has done an excellent job making the best option available within that limit. Way to go! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 86 Sun Aug 23, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 13:21 EDT Peter.. no problem. Glad you are enjoying them! Tom.. Pass that information around to anyone who asks. I don't really want to type that over again! Thunderbird, Round 2! 1. I know that we have been working on a joystick that plugs into the STE-style joystick ports. Please remember though.. Falcon030 still has the normal joystick ports. 2. Yes, the printer port is still done on the Sound Chip. We have to keep this for compatibility reasons. If you don't plug things in and out with the power on, usually you will have no problems with the sound chip. 3. The SCC is used for the serial port (this is the chip that controls the extra serial ports on the MegaSTE and TT) and I understand that the maximum baud rate is 115K. 4. I think you can already do that. (use the LocalTalk port as just another port.. i.e. write and read chars from it like a serial port) 5. According to what I know.. Yes, when an SM124 is hooked up.. if does refresh at 70Mhz. As for VBI.. I am not sure. I don't the specifics on the video refresh rates. 6. The interrupt and timer structures are the same as the STE. 7. Hmm. I dunno. I really hate compare Your system to someone else's system type question. Obviously, there is no way I can be objective. ;-) 8. Currently, I have seen software that will take a JPEG picture and decompress it to a XGA pic for viewing. I know that at some point, we will decompress to memory (i.e. the screen). 9. I don't know what software will be bundled with the Falcon030. That's a marketing issue. I do know that there should be a number of packages on display in Germany at the show that are either new supporting the new features of the Falcon030 or have existing apps that have been upgraded to support Falcon030's new hardware. As for answering your questions.. no problem. I am glad to finally be able to! Steve.. Atari will get machines to the USA market as soon as it can. We really want to be able to sell as many as we can to the USA market. However, we have to take care of markets in Europe where our sales currently are. I think you would agree that if we diverted machines from the European market to the USA market would be a gesture of good will, but not exactly in the best interests of the Atari's success with the Falcon030 product. We must keep our position in successful markets and even try to gain ground before going after markets that have yet to be tapped (in my opinion, Atari hasn't tapped into the USA market and I think many with agree with me) Before anyone gets started.. please save the snide and flaming comments about Atari USA marketing.. I have heard it all before and there is little I can do about it. I have great hope that things will be changing VERY soon. Brien... Here goes for your questions: 1. The 16th bit is the overlay bit. It is used for GENlocking stuff. As for what happens when that bit is used, I don't really know. I will try to find out. 2. I wish I could tell you more about overlay mode, but I just don't know that much about it. I will see if I can get one of the hardware guys here at Atari to explain it to me and I will post it here! Sorry, wish I could be of more help. 3. As for the second floppy port and whether the logic is there, I don't know. I imagine so, but I can't say for certain. 4. Yes. The Daughter Boards contain RAM and some caps. That's about it. It was designed this way primarily as a space saving method. The RAM boards I have seen have no extra logic. 5. There is no RAM on the motherboard. All RAM is connected through the RAM connector. 6. I don't really know, to be honest.. I know that 115K baud can be set, but I don't know if Rsconf() supports it. I will try to find out. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 87 Sun Aug 23, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 14:20 EDT Mick.. I will try to do that on Monday. The Falcon030 that I have is at the office.. As for how Resolutions are selected, they are done from the new Set Video Mode.. menu item that brings up a Dialog that uses the new PopUp menus available in the AES. No big long list of menus ;-) Bob Wilson.. I am not sure that is Bill Rehbock's call. Send him some Email. Chazz.. unfortunately, the bandwidth required for to produce 640x480 and 640x240 true color modes is too much for the video hardware to handle. Therefore, those modes aren't available. BTW.. That's great that your fellow employees are interested. Should your company want to work with Falcon030, be sure to let Bill Rehbock know! Mark..I have ways to capture pictures of the desktop, but I don't have a color scanner to take pictures of the machine and scan them. Oh well.. if I had those toys, I would never get any work done ;-) DD.. Thanks for the nice words ;-) But, I like my current job already! Steve... As far as I know, the machines that we took to the show will be sold to people there. I don't know all the details but that was the plan as I knew it. But, please.. don't hold me to it. I don't know much about what is happening in Germany right now. Hmm.. as for the true color mode questions.. There is only 640x400 interlaced true color mode on the TV/Monitor. You can't do 640 true color modes on a VGA monitor. Please see my previous answer regarding this. Thanks for your nice words regarding my responses. They are appreciated ;-) Jim.. Thanks for your comments. You are really helping to fill in some of the blanks I am leaving behind. I really hope that I am helping some of you. I know that since the show is in Germany, you can't get the information as fast as you would like. Therefore, I am doing my best to provide you with answers to your questions. I hope you are as impressed as I am with Falcon030. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 88 Sun Aug 23, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 14:46 EDT John T., Thanks a bunch for the info. It's certainly helping me convince my wife that we *need* a new computer. Actually, she loves our ST and was heartbroken with Sierra dropped Atari from their line. :( Keep the info coming, I certainly don't expect you to take the heat for decisions made by the upper level Suits! :) Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 89 Sun Aug 23, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 16:27 EDT Since the Falcon 030 was officially announced (at the Falcon RTC a few weeks back), a topic for Falcon 030 information was started in Category 14. Start using Category 14, Topic 20 for Falcon questions and answers because this one will be closing soon. Before it goes away, I'll get some of the more illuminating messages (like those posted by TOWNS) moved over there. Thanks. - Jeff Williams Asst. Sysop ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 90 Sun Aug 23, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 17:33 EDT John Townsend- What kind of Falcon projects are you working on? Exciting stuff or mundane behind the scenes stuff? :-) Can you tell us anything you know about new apps being shown in Deutchland? -Tom McComb ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 91 Sun Aug 23, 1992 S.WINICK at 18:38 EDT TOWNS, We all appreciate your participation in this discussion, and your ability to provide the Atari community with an accurate source of information. It's quite refreshing to be able to see real answers to legitimate questions instead of the more familar ramblings and unfounded rumors. I hope your dedication and efforts aren't going unnoticed by your superiors back in Sunnyvale. Communication is the key to improved relationships with the Atari community. Keep up the good work! Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 92 Sun Aug 23, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 19:38 EDT D.D.MARTIN - But WHO at Atari told your dealer this? Also, the conference with Sam was AFTER the CT show, at which time I'd expect Atari to have a better idea as to how things will be. Not that I give what Sam says much weight after past lies, though. However, the "second quarter '93 availability" may have been when Atari plans for the Falcon030 to go into wide distribution here as opposed to the first several months of limited availability. And if you've been reading a lot of MY messages here, you should know that I'm not into only hearing the good news about Atari. My dislike for ST Report stems from how much wasted space there is in it (sometimes, as much as half an issue has absolutely nothing to do with Atari), how much it seems to focus on negative editorialising rather than real substantiated news (not that it doesn't have *ANY* real news, though), and a justified personal grudge against Ralph. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 93 Sun Aug 23, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 20:40 EDT Mark, I bought the Stock when it first dropped from 4 1/2 to 2 1/2 right before the TT030 intro.. given that must of us figured it would make FCC class "B" and... well... screwed again.. At the time it seemed a good investment ... what the has 1983 got to do with anything?.. shesss Mr. Glib... TOWNS... You may not want to talk about it ... but YOUR BOSS just told his last lie... He needs to get his little b_t here and explain why he bothered to MIS-INFORM all of us ... some of us spend over $10 just to listen in live and here... "Shipping to the US" in mid late October".. well I can accept LATE NOVEMBER.. maybe... me thinks you guys have shoot your LAST bullet in the good old USA!! if these stories hold true.. From Enthused to Mad ..Jerry ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 94 Sun Aug 23, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 20:40 EDT John Townsend: Thanks again for the informative messages. I'm really getting into this. By the way, your posts are doing a _lot_ to help sell Falcons in Upstate N.Y.! I hope your superiors are listening. They can quote specs 'till they're blue in the face, but the average man on the street outside the computer store couldn't tell a MIP from a MFLOP or even a DSP. Your 'translations' of this for the rest of humanity are really and honestly the reason some people are getting excited around these parts. I'm also excited to hear that the graphics are impressive on the SC1224. I wonder if "SC1224" includes the original SC1224 (I believe made by Panasonic) which I have. It is by far the coolest looking Atari monitor to date ;-) By the way, it's been used daily since January 1986!!! No problems EVER except for grunge clogging the power switch. If the modes work on a TV, they should easily work on most any Analog RGB monitor, right? I was not clear in my question about the LAN port. I really meant to ask you if it could be configured as a second RS-232 port. Can the bauds be set and handshaking, etc.? Even if it's not an RS-232 level signal or a different connector style, if it's protocol can be configured like a '232 port, then an adapter could be assembled which would give me 2 RS-232 ports. 2 RS-232 ports would benefit me more than a LAN port, since I can only afford 1 falcon, only have room for 1 falcon on my desk, and can only use 1 computer at a time. I'm hoping I can have 2 ports like them MSTE. It's no big deal if it can't be done, but it would be nice. (There's plenty of other ports to fool around with) 3 more questions: 1) What type of battery is in the internal clock? 2) Can you tell us of any developers or dealers who 'dumped' Atari, which have been seduced back to the fold by the Falcon? It would be great to hear a turn of events like that. 3) What will the resoltion and sound capabilities of the Jaguar be, and will they be similar to those of the Falcon? ____________________ \hunderbird P.S. I don't suppose I snuck that one by you, did I??? ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 95 Sun Aug 23, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 21:47 EDT This place is getting too hot. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 96 Sun Aug 23, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 21:58 EDT John, Thanks for all the info and for coming online and chatting with us about the Falcon. Your efforts ARE APPRECIATED. I vote for Towns as the new Director of Communications! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 97 Sun Aug 23, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 22:23 EDT It's very understandable that Atari would push the Falcon first and hardest in Europe where they still have a foot-hold. Especially given the percentage of software development that comes from Europe. Everyone knows there needs to be a decent software base built up for the Falcon before any "non-believers" will buy a Falcon cold or invest in a dealership. What is harder to swallow is being mislead at Sam's RTC about an October release date. Depending on what "limited distribution" actually means, Sam's statements may border on being an outright lie feed to the Atari users while they were paying for their connect time to Genie. That is inexcusable and I agree with J.Richter, it maybe the deciding factor for me on whether to jump ship to another platform. I'm willing to wait (and hope) to see what the truth is. I don't expect to see Falcons selling along side MACs at Sears this Christmas. But I do expect my local dealers to have a few in their stores for the Faithful. Finally, none of this hostility should be direct at J.Towns who's trying to build bridges with the user base. Instead, LET'S KILL THE SUITS!!! Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 98 Sun Aug 23, 1992 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 22:26 EDT TOWNS, Merci, beaucoup! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 99 Sun Aug 23, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 22:31 EDT John T., Thanks for the post about the Falcon resolutions. Much appreciated! A question for you or anyone else: What's the reasoning, justification, rationale, what-have-you, :^) for all of the lower resolutions, for example 320x200 with 4 colors? Wouldn't one want to use the highest resolution as possible (on his monitor), except for (new) games and for compatibility with older games and application software? There sure do seem like a lot of resolutions in the machine; some that may not even get used. >C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 23:35 EDT > > p.s. I liked it when I called Atari for a technical question, and >actually got, " I really dont know" as the answer ... Curt Atari take note: what would have been better is, "I really don't know the answer. I'll try to find out and get back to you." However, I don't think they have much time in Sunnyvale for doing personal requests like a disk jockey. In a perfect world.... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 100 Sun Aug 23, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 22:52 EDT ... to expand on my previous statement, it went more like this, I called and said I have a tech. question, and whoever answered waited awhile, trying to think of who could answer one (I was already worried).. the first person had no idea, the second got as far as, Im pretty sure its no... they did indeed in the end get me, I think, a final answer, I just had to talk to more peple than I thought, but everyone was REAL friendly, to me this is important, as I talk to different companies we deal with every day, and get a lot that arent happy to answer questions... what it comes down to is, I work for a music store, but we are an Atari dealer, and from what I get from our Corp. out in California is we are thrilled to be and will continue to be!! so please Atari, send some Falcons by way of Guitar Center, as I am into music, but have used Atari all my life, I will sell all you could send me.......... Curt ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 101 Sun Aug 23, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 22:58 EDT To: J.Richter 1983, thats when Atari had its stock price set at (Aprox) 16.00 per share. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 102 Mon Aug 24, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 00:00 EDT Chuck.. I know that we have talked with Sierra about supporting our products and I am certain that once our sales pick up to a decent level, they will be back (along with lots of other companies!) Jeff.. thanks for the Message move. ;-) Tom.. I spent the last two months working on TOS for the Falcon030. I helped write alot of the code that interfaces to the new video hardware. I also worked with Ken Badertscher on putting together the startup code for Falcon030 TOS. Can you say very long days and 80-100 hour work weeks? I wish I could tell you about apps being shown at the show in Dusseldorf, but I honestly haven't been in that loop. I think you will have to wait for Bill Rehbock's conference when he returns. Sheldon.. Thank you for the kind words! I just want everyone to get as the info they need before purchasing this fine machine (once available). I really think people will be suprised by this machine once they get a chance to see what it is capable of. Alright, keep 'em coming! -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 103 Mon Aug 24, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:31 EDT Mark, buying stock at 1 is a good idea. If it increases just 1 point you've increased your money 50% with almost no money up front. That and you don't have far to fall from 1.:-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 104 Mon Aug 24, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 01:37 EDT If I'm not mistaken, Sam repeatedly said (and no I'm not going to re-read the transcript to be certain) North America. Not the United States of America. That means The Great White North aka Canada. It'll get here. Eventually. Probably not by Christmas... but then ith the current dealer base it doesn't make that much more difference. Total US sales are 'nuttin'. Now after the marketing push... I would exp[ect them to innundate the United States of America when there are enough dealers set up to handle them. Hey... the plan may not be perfect but atleast they HAVE a plan. Frst time in 7 years! -Tom McComb Ed- Resolutions. Memory usage. We've been used to 32k Screen memory. Not no more! -Tom ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 105 Mon Aug 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:46 EDT JEFF.W - Shouldn't this topic stay for discussing rumors about newer Falcon machines and such or are we welcome to discuss those over in Category 14? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 106 Mon Aug 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 04:02 EDT E.KRIMEN - The justification for all the lower resolutions (e.g. 320x200x4) is that they'll use up a lot less RAM. A 640x480x256 screen uses 300kB, a 320x200x4 screen uses 16kB, and a 320x200x256 screen uses 62.5kB. Granted, I don't really understand why *ANYONE* would want a 320x200x4 resolution for anything, but that's me. M.FARMER2 - Correction: That's when Atari, Inc. had its stock at about 16 per share, not Atari Corp. TOWNS - The only thing is that it's *UP TO ATARI* to give people "a chance to see what it is capable of." That's not an attack, but just a fact - and one that Atari hopefully knows. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 107 Mon Aug 24, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 05:16 EDT Hi John, good to read your voice again . Call me a touch confused, but are you saying that the 670X480X256(color) mode is NOT available with the Falcon? One of the reasons I bought my NEC 3-D was to take advantage of more colors & higher resolutions when they came out on my favorite machine. Please clear this up for me, will we be able to display these resolutions and colors 'out of the box' or not? By the way, MANY THANKS for being here and answering our often less than polite questions. Though I'm strapped for cash I'm still very interested in the new Falcon, and am keeping my fingers crossed for the next generation Falcon II when it comes out . Gregg Anderson Mark, buying stock at 1 is a good idea. If it increases REALM> just 1 point you've increased your money 50% with almost no REALM> money up front. That and you don't have far to fall from REALM> 1. :-) Actually, Joey, if a stock goes from 1 to 2, it has increased 100% in value. It's original value was 50% of its higher value, but you will have doubled your investment (less broker commissions, of course). Perhaps you've been spending too much time with all those great DynaCADD hatches and Outline Art creations and have forgotten some of those basic math relationships. Of course, this is all a moot point unless the stock actually DOES double in value. ;-] Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 109 Mon Aug 24, 1992 S.WINICK at 07:37 EDT TM> It'll get here. Eventually. Probably not by Christmas... but TM> then ith the current dealer base it doesn't make that much more TM> difference. Total US sales are 'nuttin'. Now after the TM> marketing push... I would exp[ect them to innundate the United TM> States of America when there are enough dealers set up to TM> handle them. Tom, There's really something wrong with this picture. There really is a reason why every other company in the world coordinates a 'marketing push' with actual product. I really can't imagine any company being able to build up a dealer network WITHOUT being able to supply actual product. What do you propose those dealerships do to remain in business while they're waiting for Atari to decide when there are 'enough dealers' onboard to actually start delivering product? Of course, since apparantly "... the current dealer base doesn't make that much difference", losing whatever is left of Atari's current dealer base when they may find it difficult to sell existing product because of all the hype Atari is creating with the Falcon also won't make much of a difference. Yes, indeed. That's the ticket. Press releases, public discussion and advertising for not-yet-available products. The heck with currently available models and currently available dealerships. Yeah!! That's the ticket. The rest of the world is wrong. Yeah, that's it.... Live, from New York, it's Saturday Night!! Special guest this week is Atari Computer Corporation! ;-] Yeah.... just imagine all the developers that will rush to spend the time and money to develop for a new computer when they're guaranteed that they won't have to worry about being able to actually sell their creations until ".... there are enough dealers set up to handle them." Yeah, that's the ticket!! TM> Hey.... the plan may not be perfect but atleast they HAVE a TM> plan. Frst time in 7 years! Yeah, Tom.... great plan!! Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 110 Mon Aug 24, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 08:27 EDT Gregg, If you mean 640x480x256 (not 670x480x256) colors, it is resolution #29 on the official resolution document. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 111 Mon Aug 24, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 11:50 EDT And the NEC 5D will handle the 640x480x256 color mode just fine. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 112 Mon Aug 24, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 15:16 EDT Mr. Richter.. I don't appreciate the manner in which you are speaking at me. The fact is that Sam stated that machines would be available in the USA around the middle of October. I believe we are still standing behind that fact. Despite what ST Report likes to report (which BTW.. I notice has no source attributed to it!), I still will stand behind what Sam Tramiel has said. D.ENGEL.. Thanks for the kind words! Keep passing this information along if you will. It is most appreciated. As for your questions: 1. I honestly don't know about the LAN port as a second serial port. I think I need to write that one down and find out. 2. Yes, when I say SC1224.. basically, that means any RGB Analog monitor. Specifically the ones that Atari has sold and continues to sell. 3. The Internal Clock is a Dallas Semiconductor part. I believe that others have wired this part into their STs to have an internal clock. As for the type of battery, I believe it is lithium, although I am not absolutely sure on that. 4. hehehe.. Jaguar? Isn't that a british car? Sorry, folks.. Let's stick to Falcon030 here. I can't talk about things I don't know about! ;-) Wayne.. thanks for the kind words. If you have any questions, just ask! Chuck.. I am not sure what will happen. I know that everyone at Atari would like to attack the USA market as soon as we possibly can. However, as you said.. other markets have to tended to first. So, let's try to think positive and see what happens! Ed.. well, how shall I say this.. Basically, Leonard and I went nuts on the software interface to the video hardware. If the video hardware was capable of doing a mode and the mode worked, we allowed for it. The reason I would like to think that those resolutions might be useful is because they are blindingly fast. With a small screen and a small number of planes combined with a 16Mhz BLiTTER is equal to screaming eagles! Anyway, that's why we did it. And yes, I agree.. alot of them will probably not even get used by most people. But, there are available and users can pick and choose.. Enjoy! And I agree on the support comment you made.. In a perfect world -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. PS. Thunderbird: Not a chance! ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 113 Mon Aug 24, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 18:00 EDT John T., Positive thinking I will be doing. I don't know who I'm kidding, I'm probably going to buy a Falcon the first week they're available in the U.S., anyway! :) Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 114 Mon Aug 24, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 18:51 EDT Sheldon, I was trying to use the metric system again.:-) Yes, it would be 100% in America.:-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 115 Mon Aug 24, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 19:05 EDT Re: serial speeds I've been doing some programming work on that, but still don't understand much of it myself. Thank god for Eric Rosenquist (I hope I spelled that right). If you have STalker 3.0 and a TT or MegaSTe, you can see that using serial 2, you can set the speed of the port up to 230,400. Rsconf() will not let you set it up to this speed. That call only goes up to 19,200. To get to any of the higher speeds requires direct twiddling of the SCC. Dan ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 116 Mon Aug 24, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 19:13 EDT To: Realm yea But if Atari does not make more than 500 Falcon's im sure that "1" will shrink to $ 00.50 or less. Someone said that Atari only ordered 500 Falcons, I would think that that is a small number. If this is true is the 500 falcon's going to the USER? or are they going to the programers like (CodeHead, Hudson, DC ect...) Are the Falcons that are to be in the USA by Oct are they going to be FCC "A" class? will the "B" class follow with the next Order? And how big will the next order be 500, 1000, 2000 falcons? I just want to know :) Yea, I stand Corrected Atari Inc, I remember now, I think things were better for Atari then Correct? Selling the 2600, 5200, 800, 1200XL, 800XL they had a movie company with them that advertized ("WB" or something like that). By they way I just picked up a 5200 at a yard sale for $8.00 it came with 5 games. I sold my 5200 I had back in 1984-1985. Remember when we were talking about the S-NES, (More Info) CPU 65816, 3.58 Mhz, Res 512x448, Colors 32,768, Colors On Screen 256, Max Sprites 128 Sprite Size 64x64 I think the Falcon is a bit better. What I do not understand why Atari is not making a CD-ROM, are they not making a Game Mach? will that game Mach have a CD-Rom? if so why not use the same CD- Rom? If it will not Have a CD-Rom i think Atari needs to do some rethinking. If they will have a CD-ROM will it have a 68030 chip inside? for faster proc of the data? (like the sega CD-ROM) To: S.Winick >"a Moot Point unless the stock actually DOES double in value." Don't you think Atari's stock will double? :) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 117 Mon Aug 24, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 20:01 EDT Jerry Richter - If you reread the transcripts of the two conferences, you will see no reference to HOW MANY Falcons would be in our country in October. From past experience, we know that Atari gets production up to speed very slowly. There are a couple of very good reasons to do this. One is that, if there is a big design flaw (like the DMA chip problem on early STe machines), it can get fixed before a million bad machines are built. Anyway, you may see a hundred machines, or a few hundred arrive here late this fall, if the FCC B approval comes through. But, most of those machines will already be spoken for. The chances of you walking into a dealer and finding a couple on the floor waiting for buyers is VERY slim. I would very much LOVE to get lucky that way. In any case, while the October comment may be misleading, it isn't really a lie. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 118 Mon Aug 24, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 20:25 EDT OK, Well this may be a dumb question, but I'll throw it out here anyway... Can someone please explain what interlaced graphics are? I know Amiga folks have had it from the start, but it's a new animal for us ol' Atari users. (Isn't it the creature that caused the famous "screen flicker" on the Amiga?) Will WE have screen flicker now? John--> With all these new video modes, is it still necessary to reboot the system to do a resolution change or is there an elegant way to accomplish this? It would be nice to have a standard "BOOT RESOLUTION" and let the software decide it's own resolution.... ALL-----> It seems to me that if "there are Falcons all over the floor of the show, in almost every booth", that the FALCON can not be a vaporware promise, but must be in production somehow and somewhere. John, can you confirm Falcon production? Amounts? Sam said in the CO that he saw the first Falcon production coming off the lines. He also said that Falcon had not yet been sent to FCC for testing.... has this been taken care of yet? -------------------> Sam ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 119 Mon Aug 24, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:23 EDT Towns: Darn! It was worth a shot. You never know what the enthusiastic Atari worker might let slip ;-) maybe next time (heh heh heh). Actually, I have a question. Forgive me if this was answered already. I've been following closely and don't see how I could have missed this one, but seeing how nobody has mentioned anything like it in a while, maybe you said you can't do it. Anyhow... you said that you had utilities for taking screenshots there, yet nobody has asked you to upload some. Can you do it? I plan to pull them into Pagestream and print them out at work at 11x17 or larger, then paste them up around the office ;-) Thanks again! ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 120 Mon Aug 24, 1992 D.GROSS1 [Dave G.] at 22:54 EDT I don't see anything wrong with the ST style case! As a composer who needs to haul his computer around to recording sessions, it's a pretty painless thing to do...especially if the can really squeeze an 80 meg drive into the thing! I've already put aside MR. Mastercard... Dave Gross ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 121 Tue Aug 25, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 00:35 EDT Mark Farmer, Because game machine CD-ROMs are REALLY cheap. For any non-game use you'd want a better CD ROM than any on the game machines. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 122 Tue Aug 25, 1992 XXTIMD at 01:37 EDT Basically, when the electron gun paints the picture on the screen, it paints it one line at a time. Really fast of course. Well, with interlacing it cheats. It paints every OTHER line in one pass, and then comes back and paints the lines it didn't paint in another pass, an so on and so on. It kinda cheats. because of this, the screen appears to "flicker", expecially light colors. For some people this drives them nuts, while for others, they don't notice it all(most people notice it). Anyways, the only reason I can think of Atari having the picture being interlaced is so you can display it on a TV. A TV is interlaced, it just doesn't appear to flicker because there is the unlimited pallette of colors. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 123 Tue Aug 25, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 02:14 EDT All these different resolutions........ hmmmm seems kinda familiar....... I seem to be hearing voices in my head saying things like "ANTIC" and "GTIA".... It seems like there was ANOTHER revolutionary machine far back in the distant past.... probably one of the most versatile graphics machines ever built by humans..... What was it called....... I can't quite remember........... ***** * * ******* ***** * ** ***** ** ** ** ** ********* ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 124 Tue Aug 25, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 04:53 EDT S.WINICK - But "currently available models" are several years out of date. There's no reason to *START* marketing those now. TOWNS - While I'm on your side, past experience should keep anyone from standing behind what Sam Tramiel has said. REALM - Actually, it would be 35% using the metric system ("double it and add thirty" to convert it from metric). M.FARMER2 - If you read the Forbes article, it says Atari, Inc. was doing $2 billion in sales a decade ago and now Atari Corp. is under $300 million in sales. Since Time-Warner still owns 24.7% of Atari Corp. stock (which the Tramiels control by proxy, by the way), maybe they'd be willing to help out a little in the marketing and publicity departments. Maybe get WB to use Atari computers for TV and film productions and Time could offer Atari some prime ad/publicity space??? Also, Sam said that they wouldn't be submitting the Falcon030 for a Class A certification, only Class B. SAM-RAPP - Yep! That's correct! You'll see flicker on an RGB monitor, but the interlaced graphics are mainly there for TV stuff which is interlaced anyway. D.GROSS1 - Yes, that's what I'm thinking now. I may want a system that's easily portable, so I may actually take a Falcon030 afterall if I stay with Atari (as I've said before, I'm going to hold off on a purchase until I'm confident that Atari is doing something useful marketing-wise *AND* that the Falcon030's are selling fairly well). XXTIMD - No, it doesn't appear to flicker on TV because TV tubes have higher persistance phosphors. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 125 Tue Aug 25, 1992 S.WINICK at 05:09 EDT Mark, MF> Don't you think Atari's stock will double? Well... MY stock in Atari just quadrupled!!! (I just received another major order yesterday ;-). Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 126 Tue Aug 25, 1992 S.WINICK at 05:10 EDT Dave (Gross), The 1040 style case has always been popular with musicians who have to travel with their computers because of its compact design. The Falcon is a logical evolution of that design with a plethora of new features that musicians will absolutely love. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 127 Tue Aug 25, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 05:14 EDT John (Towns)... can you give us some info on the video hardware used in the Falcon? Just how it's setup and how it interfaces into the data bus? Also... I'd really like to learn the exact horizontal and vertical frequencies and video bandwidths used by the various display modes. That way we can build up a listing of monitors that 'should' work with the Falcont( in case the Atari units become hard to locate (due to excessive demand, who said I wasn't an optimist ). Keep on plugging John, and get that MultiTOS out for us. Thanks again for keeping us up to speed here on GEnie, you and Dan are the only one's I've seen come by lately (other than Dave Flory that is). Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 128 Tue Aug 25, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:50 EDT John Townsend: I appreciate your input in this topic, as others have. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 129 Tue Aug 25, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 20:58 EDT To: FIFTHCRUSADE Does that mean that Atari will be readying a CD-ROM for the New Game mach? To: S.JOHNSON10 I knew that WB still owned Atari stock but was not sure how much if they have 24.7% stock it would seem they would want to do more for Atari to get the stock back up. To: S.Winick Yea, but your talking about your products you sell not Atari's correct? So do you have your Falcon yet? What are your plans for the Falcon? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 130 Tue Aug 25, 1992 S.WINICK at 23:33 EDT Mark, Well.... of course I'm talking about 'my' stock in Atari (the products I sell!) --- it goes up and down on a regular basis! ;-] I'm sure I'll be getting as many Falcons as possible as soon as Atari chooses to start shipping them in this country. My plans for the Falcon --- pretty much the same as my plans for all Atari computer equipment --- sell as many as possible to as many people as possible, based on that equipment's ability to meet their individual needs and desires. But the Falcon currently is simply NOT a viable choice for any system solution as it simply is NOT available in this country. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 131 Tue Aug 25, 1992 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 23:52 EDT <>, :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 132 Tue Aug 25, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 23:55 EDT Mark Farmer, I have no idea. I was just making a general statement that, if a CD ROM player is cheap enough to be sold for a game console, it's probably much too cheap to be good enough for the more high-end computer CD-ROM uses. Ben White ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 133 Wed Aug 26, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 02:48 EDT Jerry Richter, If you check the conference transcript you will find that I asked about FCC Class B and how they expected to have *SIGNIFICANT* quantities of Falcons in the US by mid-October. Sam answered that they didn't expect to have significant quantities by mid-October. I was disappointed in the answers (both the the class B and the quantities) but I don't think Atari lied or even mis-led us. Mike Allen ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 134 Wed Aug 26, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 03:31 EDT A lot of people are upset that the Falcon won't be available in large quantities in the US until 1993. While I agree that it's an unfortunate fact, I don't think some of the users online are facing the situation realistically. Atari needs to sell machines fast in markets where it is most competitive. Atari is not competitive in America (in terms of numbers, not features or capabilities). Atari _is_ competitive in many European markets, and needs to devote its limited resources to regaining the postition it's been losing to Commodore, IBM, and Apple. If this means that mass availability for America has to wait, well, then I guess we should bite the bullet. After all, Falcons sold _anywhere_ will benefit us all in the long run. America is a niche market, its strongholds being DTP and MIDI. DTP has its needs met by the TT, but the MIDI people need something more. All Atari needs to do is get a few machines here in October to whet the musicians' whistles (cheap direct to disk recording? Yum!) and to satiate the loyalists, and we should be set for six months of patient waiting. Though I'm on my local dealer's waiting list for Falcon's, if they can't get them in October (or November) then I'll mail order one. Toad will find some way to get their hands on them... And as for griping about the 1040-style case, again this shows a misunderstanding of basic marketing principles. Atari can't afford to release a lot of models right now; they need to get a unit out that they can mass- produce cheaply at a fast pace. The Falcon 030 is a home unit designed to raise some quick cash (and attention) for Atari. It should succeed in these respects, at which time a higher-end machine will no doubt be released. As great a machine as the Falcon is, it cannot be all things to all people. Cost and producability are major factors. We'd all like this to be the "perfect" machine, but it just won't happen. What we have to realize is that this is perhaps the best machine available for the price (that is, when it is available), and we should do what we can to maximise its abilities and minimize its limitations. Let me conclude a long post by congratulating Atari for a wise decision in supporting existing monitors rather than going to some new proprietary "standard." By using existing SC1224's and off the shelf VGA monitors, Atari is freeing themselves from the burden of being a monitor manufacturer/distributor and can concentrate on moving CPU's. It seems as though Atari _is_ making some smart decisions after all. Soul Manager ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 135 Wed Aug 26, 1992 T.STARACE1 at 21:25 EDT Speaking of Atari Stock, How would one go about purchasing some?. Is it a difficult process? It seems like a good time to buy some stock in Atari with it being so low right now and with the Falcon just around the corner. If it's easy enough I may buy some. Do you need a broker or can you do it by yourself? Also I heard a while back that the Falcon was to have battery backed up RAM. Is this true? It would be nice to turn the computer on and have everything already loaded into memory. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 136 Wed Aug 26, 1992 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 21:38 EDT Soul Manager, Right on. Now, about that handle. Pastor? Metaphysician? Motown rep? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 137 Wed Aug 26, 1992 SLP at 22:12 EDT Soul Manager, the main problem is that by the time Atari finally gets around to taking care of the US market, it will be too late. All of the other companies around aren't going to stand still on their old computers. I don't understand why Atari takes such a low key approach to their new products. No press release, not even information in an easily accessable form for people here on GEnie who are begging for stats, etc. I remember a couple of years ago when Tandy made a huge announcement about some optical disk drive or something like that. It was all over the wires. I don't even know if the drives are available now. Here sits Atari, with a great new machine due out in the next few months, and nobody even knows about it. To top that off, when Sam is asked if outlets like Comp USA, etc will carry the machine he wants the user to do the sales job instead of Atari. The most important people in an organization like Atari is the sales staff (do they even have one?). Oh well. Since the company's marketing plan seems to be co-op ads with dealers, I guess that I'll never even get to see a machine until I go up to the mountains and see one in person. At least if they were sold on the home shopping channel I could see a bit of what the machine was like. Scott ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 138 Wed Aug 26, 1992 D.GROSS1 [Dave G.] at 23:17 EDT Sheldon, Please send me E-mail and tell me more about your company. Or if you want to fax me some goodies, its 407-895-1901. Dave Gross DIGITRAX STUDIOS Orlando, Fl TO ALL: ATARI stock is listed on the American Stock Exchange. Today's price is at $1.675.. Any broker should be able to make a deal for you. I've got mine... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 139 Thu Aug 27, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 00:56 EDT "...it will be too late." People have been crying out about the imminent death of Atari for the last 6 years. Atari's still kicking. Are things going to change over night? No. Is the market going to turn around by Xmas? No. Is the design/development/FCC cycle of the Falcon going to be any different from any other Atari product. Probably not. Is it going to be '93 before you can easily acquire one? I think so, 'less you want to travel to the great white north. Has Atari finally got a product that stands a chance of reversing the last 6 years. I think so. Do they finally have a marketing plan? Yeah. Will it work? WHo knows, but at least they are going to TRY and market in the USA this time. Am I surprised Europe is still comming first? Not in the least. Should Atari 'sit' on a product for six months while it waits for FCC approval so it can release it in all markets worldwide simultaneously? No way. If it's ready for Europe, go for it. -Tom ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 140 Thu Aug 27, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 01:58 EDT Great post, Soul Manager. You said it! Scott, >Soul Manager, the main problem is that by the time Atari finally >gets around to taking care of the US market, it will be too late. Too late for what? I'm not planning on going anywhere. I =hope= I don't go anywhere. :^) > All of the other companies around aren't going to stand still on >their old computers. Oh, you mean like MS-DOS? :^) > I don't understand why Atari takes such a low key approach to their >new products. Sam Tramiel came on GEnie and personally announced the new machines. They just announced (released?) them at the Dusseldorf fair. They're going to show them at the Boston Computer Society show. What do you want? They're not going to blow their money on a "1984"-type advertising. They have no machines to sell here yet. > No press release, not even information in an easily accessable form >for people here on GEnie who are begging for stats, etc. You haven't seen topic 20 in Category 14, have you? Check it out. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 141 Thu Aug 27, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:42 EDT SLP - Yes, Sam's comment about the "will CompUSA carry it?" question bothered me too. His answer seemed to imply that Atari wasn't even actively *INQUIRING* whether any store chains were interested in carrying it. I would also rather see the machines on home shopping channels than *NOWHERE*. Also, what was proposed as far as marketing in the U.S. is concerned was that Atari would spend several months using (showing off) the Falcon030 to rebuild their dealerbase and using regional co-op ads for existing dealers. Then, when (if) they get the national dealerbase rebuilt, they would start a nationwide campaign. The only other answer I see to what Atari plans to do is to somehow greatly increase production of the Falcon030 so that they are capable of supplying both Europe *AND* the U.S. with machines, but I don't think that's realistic. I also remember Tandy announcing a recordable magnetic/optical CD (records CD's magnetically and plays them back just like a standard CD) a few years back and look what happened... VAPORWARE!!! D.GROSS1 - No, today's (Wednesday's) closing price was $1.50/share. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 142 Thu Aug 27, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 11:17 EDT The Tandy drive is called Tahiti, it's made by someone else under license with Tandy's technology. It's a 600Meg magneto-optical read/write drive...I guess that's alot like a CDrom + write. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 143 Thu Aug 27, 1992 J.P.C. at 18:37 EDT T.MCCOMB You're right! ATARI has survived. But, so did SONY's BETAMAX... until support dried up. But, so did the CORVAIR... until it was tagged as a 'killer'. The real question is... What business is ATARI in? Are they in the business of supplying products to the general consumer marketplace? Or, are they in the business of supplying products to a dedicated user-base? If the former is true... ATARI hasn't succeeded to any great degree. If the latter is true... ATARI has done a fine job. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 144 Thu Aug 27, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 20:30 EDT DAVE GROSS!! Hugs, hon.. how ya doooin? I didn't know you had an Atari??? You know you have a full service Atari dealer right there in Orlando? Morrison Computer...3761 Silver Star Rd ..295-6340. John Morrison specializes in music! Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 145 Thu Aug 27, 1992 SLP at 21:34 EDT Surviving is one thing. Kicking some butt is another. I don't doubt that Atari could survive until the end of time, but they might have to downsize to the point of 2 or 3 hundred machines a year. I don't think that's what we want. To succeed you have to take some risks and not be afraid to fail. If you're going to go down, you might as well go fighting. Scott ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 146 Fri Aug 28, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:09 EDT J.P.C. - Betamax survived because of professional use (e.g. EFP/ENG, etc.). If it were *ONLY* home market, it would've died off long ago even though it was technically superior to VHS (which is why it was widely used for professional video). One reason it *DID* die in the home market was because Sony didn't license out Betamax as JVC did VHS. Luckily, Sony *DID* decide to license 8MM video to other manufacturers, so it'll survive (and it's better than VHS as well, though slightly lesser than SVHS, but SVHS is a lot more expensive as well). Since Atari considers itself a "consumer electronics company" and not a computer company, I'd say they've failed miserably in the U.S. SLP - As long as Atari can survive until the Tramiels are gone, then they Atari has a chance of surviving for a long time to come. Unfortunately, the Tramiels seem to want to grind the company into the ground themselves. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 147 Fri Aug 28, 1992 D.GROSS1 [Dave G.] at 02:13 EDT ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 148 Fri Aug 28, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:47 EDT Jonesy> Now, about that handle. Pastor? Metaphysician? Motown rep? Actually, I was James Brown's manager through most of the 70's. T.MCCOMB - Your message is right on track, except for the fact that it's been about eight or nine years that people have predicted Atari's demise. For those of you new to the Atari arena (or too young to remember), I humbly offer a history lesson: In 1984 Atari was the "Official Computer of the Olympic Games." All throughout the festivities Atari commercials were conspicuously played on network television, and Alan Alda was our spokesperson. Atari Inc. was still a part of Warner Comm., and the advertising budget was there just a-pluggin' those 800XL's. And Atari was doing worse than they are now. All the slick ads did absolutely nothing for them. A year later Jack Tramiel & family bought the home computer division, and through a low-cost print campaign sold more 800XL's than ever before, managing to raise the money to produce the 520 ST. Granted, Atari has been in a downward slide for the last five years or so, but the "golden years" of '85-'87 show that it _can_ be done, and without a huge advertising budget to boot. Call me an idealist, but I think now that it's do or die, Jack will come through once again. It may not happen en masse until early-mid 1993, but I think it _will_ happen. Now if all this cheerleading doesn't get me on Townsey's good side, I don't know what will... On a side note, I have been in contact with the local Amiga dealer (he lives, unfortunately, much closer to me than the Atari dealer) concerning Falcon specs and he is _very_ impressed and sincerely hopes for the machine's success. He wants to see one as soon as possible and tells me he might even pick one up. In fact, he mentioned that he would consider becoming an Atari dealer if he likes what he sees. In the meantime, Fifth Crusade and I might head over there to show him what a TT can do. He also tells me (as most of you know) that Commodore will probably announce the Amiga 4000 on Sept. 11. He's also a developer, so he knows most of the features, and it is _very_ Falcon-like as far as DSP etc., but with higher resolution graphics (like 1280 x 200 interlaced, right Jim?). So the future looks interesting, to say the least. Ra ra Falcon, go go go... Soul Manager ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 149 Fri Aug 28, 1992 J.P.C. at 09:50 EDT S.JOHNSON10 You're right on target about the BETAMAX! My point exactly. ATARI could do everyone a great service by stating its purpose. Either they are going to (and provide substantiative evidence to support same) attack the general consumer marketplace, or continue to provide new and improved products to the existing ATARI user-base. Note that I'm not 'bashing' ATARI. I'm only asking that they state their intentions so that ALL of us know what really going on. ATARI has done something better than ANY other PC manufacturer.... that is keeping their products very backward compatible. Try running 'Pagemaker 4.0' on a '286! Or 'Quark Express' on a Macintosh Plus! In this regard, ATARI stands at the forefront! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 150 Fri Aug 28, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 18:42 EDT To: S.Johnson10 Im trying to find a Betamax to convert a Porno tape I have i have never seen. I don't think there are any if there is no one wants to own up to it. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 151 Fri Aug 28, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 22:15 EDT You may have to pay to use a Betamax. Check your local yellow pages for an video equipment rental business. You may call a large hotel that does conventions too. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 152 Fri Aug 28, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 23:51 EDT I was surprised to learn that Adray's still sells Sony Super Beta's and Super Beta Hi-Fi's. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 153 Sat Aug 29, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:44 EDT Speaking of the failure of Betamax (except in the pro video market), maybe Atari should consider licensing other companies to make clones of Atari's computers? It's doubtful if any other companies would even be interested in doing so, but it's an idea to possibly help increase the market share. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 154 Sat Aug 29, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 03:02 EDT I give, what use is 1280 x 200? Very long games with short sprites?:-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 155 Sat Aug 29, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 03:46 EDT TOM.. WHAT DO YOU MEAN?... THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME MUMBO JUMBO WE HEARD WITH THE TT030!! ... REMEMBER... JUST LESS THAN A YEAR 1/2 AGO.. HEY.. JOHN.. I SAID NOTHING PERSONAL ABOUT YOU... AND IF YOU DON'T THINK YOUR OTHER STOCK HOLDERS WOULD HAVE EVEN WORSE THINGS TO SAY THAN B_TT YOU MUST BE LIVING IN A DREAM WORLD... IF WHAT WAS SAID BY THOSE DEALERS IS TRUE YOU DON'T THINK WE HAVE A RIGHT TO BE DAMN MADE.... AGAIN? ..... BELIEVE ME... I AM HOPING WHAT WAS SAID WAS WRONG... I BEEN PREACHING ATARI TO MY FRIENDS EVER SINCE I READ ABOUT THE FALCON... HEY WITH ATARI'S TRACK RECORD... THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON ATARI'S HEAD.... WINICK... AND US POOR SMUCKS THE TRUSTED ATARI TO GO UP FROM 2 1/2!! WAIT.. A MINUTE... SAM KNEW WHAT THE STATEMENT MADE WHOULD MEAN TO EVERYONE AT THAT CONFERENCE!! YOU DON'T TELL THE STARVING MASSSES THERES BREAD COMING IN OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER... AND DELIVER ONLY CRUMBS.. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU KNOW ITS ONLY CRUMBS YOU HAVE!! Soul, Double talk and rationalization for lack of planning... By April of 93' ... the ATARI window for Falcon advantages may be GONE... this is the same boo-boo I heard with the TT... fact is ... when the door shuts this time... It might be for good!!! ... AND I am not talking about LARGE quantities!! there are not enough avenues of distribution for LARGE quantities anyway.... but 500 systems in the right locations good bring some faith back in ATARI and keep a few more BADLY struggling dealer afloat..... unless you feel that is of no importancce!!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 156 Sat Aug 29, 1992 ENIGMA at 11:57 EDT Re: The Amiga's 1280 x 200 mode... I feel compelled to point out that this is not one of the new video modes that is coming to the Amigas. The Amiga already has this video mode in the current product line. Granted, it's the most useless video mode I have ever seen, but it is there. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 157 Sat Aug 29, 1992 J.HUGHES23 [Jack ] at 21:07 EDT I read the Business Section of the Sunday Seattle Times regularly. Most of what I see are half pages ads for PC type machines. It would be wonderful to even a one inch ad by a local Atari Dealer, and there are two ( 2 ??!!, my goodness ) of them. Hid your lite in a basket and nobody will see it!!! [( ) Jack ( )] ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 158 Sun Aug 30, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 03:58 EDT S.JOHNSON10 - re: Atari clones Uh, yeah, right. And maybe Atari could bundle a blender with each Falcon, and then everyone would be sure to buy one. Sheesh. J.RICHTER - re: message 155 If I were Towns, it would be very hard for me to restrain myself with you (typing in all caps looks rather rude...). Granted, Atari has quite a track record of vaporware, but things really _are_ happening with the Falcon. If they aren't available from every computer dealer by October 15th is it gonna kill you? Anyway, the good Mr. Towns isn't Atari Corp. personified, only a helpful employee. If you're seething with bitterness over a bad stock investment, write to Jack or Sam or Leonard and stop wasting our time. As for your response to me, if you reread my message you will see that I suggested that a few Falcons in the right places will keep Atari afloat until mid '93, when more machines will be available. Anyway, what do you consider "large quantities" in Atari terms? I mean, compared to the number of clones or Macs, a "large quantity" is only a fraction. And who do you think is waiting at "the door" for the Falcon to arrive? The entire PC market? There will only be a limited demand for Falcons to begin with, so hopefully the numbers we'll see in October will tide everyone over. Unless the "D2D" software Bill R. talked about is as good as it sounds, in which case the musician's demand for Falcons may dry up the availability rather quickly. BTW, J.R., thanks for not using all caps when addressing me. But really, the typos... cripes. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 159 Sun Aug 30, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:23 EDT Here is MY philosophy about "Large Quantities"... What benefit would these large quantities bring me? None, really. AS LONG AS I GET _MY_ FALCON. I WILL ENJOY IT, EVEN IF IT THE ONLY ONE THAT MAKES IT TO AMERICA!!! The Falcon will run most, if not all of my current ST software, plus any other ST software that comes out. I have useful software that fulfills my needs _right now_, so I it would be the same act as getting a 16 Meg Tiny030'ed STe, with Crazy Dots graphics board and a hard drive, plus a previously unheard of DSP board and a super sound digitizer. I don't hear everyone whining because nobody buys and installs all of these upgrades in their STe, and that not everyone owns one with all these upgrades. So, why is it necessary for _everyone_ to buy a Falcon for people to be happy??? Granted that more software will be developed. But we have the best software NOW on the ST. I'm sure it will bring TONS of overpriced and useless garbage like that on the PC. Granted you won't have to admit you have an Atari computer with an embarassed reluctance anymore, because people will respect Atari as a computer company. But I never suffered any long term physical or mental damage by getting hazed by clone owners. I doubt anyone else has. Granted more neat peripherals will be made. But nothing you _really_ can't get for an ST already, for the most part. Granted you will be able to walk into a store and buy one (perhaps), take it home and use it. But until SOFTWARE is written to take advantage of the DSP and other new features, you will only be able to run the ST applications you run today. Maybe a little faster, but you could get an accelerator or a TT _right now_ yet your need for speed doesn't seem great enough to buy either of those alternatives. So, all you get is a computer that runs your existing software, which you already have. So, ATARI: get ONE (1) Falcon over here, and if the quantity is too small to satisfy your customers, and they decline purchase (yeah, right), I'll be happy to take it off your hands for a $500. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _______________________ \hunderbird P.S. I wish that there would be at least a little info coming from Atari right now. We haven't heard much in too long a time, and interest is fading. We haven't seen TOWNS here in a while, either. I'm still waiting for some pix of the new desktop too. ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 160 Sun Aug 30, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 11:20 EDT Well spoke Thunderbird. I'm afraid if the Falcon's don't make it over here till spring we'll really see what declining interest means. :( Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 161 Sun Aug 30, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 14:35 EDT Soul, I am glad that "your" messages never wast my time! ... Large Quantities... I never wanted large quantities ... just enough to protect what dealers we have left!! By the way.. My favorite dealer in North Seattle (CaveCreek Copmputer) is calling it quits.. They were the opitomy of Gun HO Atari! they had a publishing area with Mega4, 19'Moniterm, and Atari Laser. If you can't supply anything new (or anything at all)for YEARS then what are you going to do.. If they new they could get 50 or so Falcons in before Christmas.. well they may have stuck it out.. After all, I was upset at the possibility of NO FALCONS at all coming in till April 93' and if you don't think that rumor (I hope its FALSE)is something to get upset about.. well your just NOT in touch with the general Atari community! One of my Atari friends (fanatic) who was definitly going to buy a Falcon to replace his STE in November/December time frame.. after reading the "SOMBERING" news in ST Report has purchased a CHEAP '486 based system.. he told me he was tired of having his plans for purchasing new computer hardware "shafted" by ATARI (he said something about TT030 class "B")... I told him it was just a rumor... but he said it was "de-shavou" or something.... On my part... I will wait... for my dealer in Portland (also barely hanging in there) to get a Falcon in (by December, if he lasts)... just to see how worthy it really is.. it sounds GREAT.. but almost GREAT in the hand is better than two GREATS in Europe only!! Jerry Richter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 162 Sun Aug 30, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 15:28 EDT Jerry Richter- > If you can't supply >anything new (or anything at all)for YEARS then what are you going to do. Duh? There are plenty of dealers with stock. There has been a continuing supply of new machines in the ST line. Atari isn't IBM or Apple and they're never going to be. They are a very small company. >One of my Atari friends (fanatic) who was definitly going to buy a Falcon to >replace his STE in November/December time frame.. after reading the >"SOMBERING" news in ST Report has purchased a CHEAP '486 based system. Way to go Ralph and friends. sigh. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 163 Sun Aug 30, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 17:54 EDT Tom, >>Way to go Ralph and friends. That's it, blame the messager and not the message. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 164 Sun Aug 30, 1992 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 18:25 EDT Soul Manager, Thanks for the elucidation. Sounds like an interesting way to have gotten through the Seventies. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 165 Sun Aug 30, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 19:42 EDT _I_ own a Betamax, and I am always willing to proclaim it from the mountaintops! I've always known that Beta was better than VHS, but when my current machine was showing its age, the HiFi Beta's were just too expensive, so I reluctantly bought an S-VHS. My Beta's still around, tho' -- need to see Buckaroo Banzai every once in a while. Live And Direct [2:50 AM-29/Aug/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 166 Sun Aug 30, 1992 M.PERDUE [Mario] at 20:08 EDT Lloyd, I think it's fair to 'blame the messager' (sic) when the 'messager' goes out of his way to dig up and report negative "news" weekly. That's why many of us have stopped reading ST Report. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 167 Sun Aug 30, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 20:15 EDT TOM -- >Way to go Ralph and friends. sigh. What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? If you're saying that STR made the difference in this guy's buying decision then you are saying that STR is a very powerful and respected publication. Gee.. I have to agree.. Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 168 Sun Aug 30, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 22:13 EDT Lloyd- The 'official' "message" from the CEO of Atari Corp is that there will be Falcons in North America in October with more to follow. As for the alleged 'shouting match' in CT, let's have real quotes attached to real names. None of this second hand, third hand hear-say that gets spread across the country and taken as 'truth' to the uninitiated. Hence the lost sale, the lost user. Yeah, I will blame the messenger when he comes peddling somthing worse than worthless. I hope streport has a chalk board near by so they can keep a talley of how many users they've turned away prior to the Falcons introduction. If nothing arrives in October you can take your pot shots, doing it now just continues the same negative line of $#!t streport has been shoveling for an awful long time. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 169 Sun Aug 30, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 22:40 EDT Ummm, no, D.D., that's not what I'm saying. I think a more accurate assesment would be that I think it's a rag and has a totally negative impact on the Atari world. It just induced a user to dump his Atari and buy a 486. Way to go streport. You're batting a thousand. Hugs. Tom ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 170 Sun Aug 30, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:30 EDT Tom: I suppose Forbes is a rag too? How many thousands of Atari stocks have been dumped? How many potential customers have been alienated? I mean, if the National Enquirer says that subliminal messages are being beamed into our heads through television sets, your friend sells his TV set and buys a radio, would you blame the Enquirer? A certain amount of blame must fall on the person ignorant enough to be influenced by the opinions of others. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and expressing it is a constitutional right, so every man must be prepared with his own mindset. If you were a longtime Woody Allen fan, and your image of him was forever ruined because you heard of his 'affair' on the NBC news? Would you send hate mail to NBC for not keeping such dreadful news silent??? Do what I do... Read _ALL_ the available online media, and form your own opinions. Anyone who doesn't has his head up his... er... head in the sand. ________________________ \hunderbird 'cause anyone dumb enough to trade an ST for a '486 has shown a propensity poor judgement. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 171 Mon Aug 31, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 00:57 EDT Tom, I believe the 'official' message from the CEO of Atari Corp said that there would be a 'few' Falcons in October with the majority to hit in the first quarter of '93 (paraphrased). As far as the 'shouting match in CT', most of the dealers attending wish to keep receiving systems, so don't wish to be quoted. The lost sale and lost user were lost long before STR reported about the CT meeting. It takes more than brief paragraph to make a satisfied user leave the market - it takes Atari's past history. STR has been, and will be, supporative of the Falcon. We're sold on it and believe that it can resurrect the Atari market. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 172 Mon Aug 31, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:04 EDT Thunderbird, Yes, but slanted news is slanted news... and in the ATARI world there are very few weekly sources of news! ... Let the truth shine through.. in my deepest of thoughts I'm routing for ATARI to make a FOOL of STR... printing casual heresay is nothing less than "yellow" journalism!! ... but come Xmas time if any of us cannot fine even ONE class "B" Falcon to buy... Who will be the laughing stock? Jerry Richter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 173 Mon Aug 31, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 02:17 EDT Sorry, Lloyd, no matter how you twist and turn it, it ain't support. It's just one cheap shot after another. If the dealers didn't find it important enough to 'go on record' then I guess it wasn't very important to them. The Atari market place could do with alot less 'support' from streport. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 174 Mon Aug 31, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 02:22 EDT Lloyd, >That's it, blame it on the messager [sic] and not the message. When it's an unsubstantiated rumor, YES, definitely blame it on the "messager". And since when have "Ralph and friends" been messengers? Rumormongers, commentators, bashers, and peddlers in inuendo would be more accurate. "Ralph and friends" are responsible for what they publish in ST Report. What if Falcons DO come out this year? Then do we blame Ralph for telling us they wouldn't? Thunderbird, >would you blame the Enquirer? They are responsible for what they publish too. So, in part, YES. Mario, >goes out of his way to dig up and report negative "news" Yeah, that's why I've stopped watching the Evening News. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 175 Mon Aug 31, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 04:30 EDT Didn't Rosanne(sp?) sue the Enquirer and win? I think that says something about being responsible for what you print. I'm not exactly fond of ST Report but I would have to lay 99% of the blame on Atari for any users dropping out. If Atari had a decent reputation then ST Report wouldn't be able to start anything. For example... They could easily print all kinds of bad stuff about the Codeheads and no one would believe it, even if it was true.:-) The amount of respect the user base has for their products and support is too incredibly huge to be shaken by one source. I'm positive they'll do a great job supporting the Falcon!(topic tie in) On the other hand if one person says something bad about Atari, everone believes it right off. It's that way for a reason... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 176 Mon Aug 31, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 06:06 EDT S.DANUSER - I don't remember exactly what I typed, but I wasn't really serious about the idea of Atari clones. However, I don't see how the blender analogy fits at all. Also, if the "D2D" software isn't all that much, the demand for the Falcon *WILL NOT* "dry up...rather quickly" as other software in development will do the same things. J.RICHTER - I've heard of a few other remaining Atari dealers that may be calling it quits if they can't get the Falcon030 in by Christmas. I'm sad to hear Cave Creek Computers is another one since Seattle is where I'll be living about a year from now. >Lloyd, > >I think it's fair to 'blame the messager' (sic) when the 'messager' goes out >of his way to dig up and report negative "news" weekly. That's why many of us >have stopped reading ST Report. M.PURDUE - Especially when their `news' has no apparent source. D.ENGEL - Yes, ST Report *IS* comparable to the National Enquirer. Thank you for pointing that out! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 177 Mon Aug 31, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 07:46 EDT You GOT the dealer's name who was most upset Tom, MANNY"S! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 178 Mon Aug 31, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 21:25 EDT TOM - The dealers would jump for joy if the Falcons were going to be shipped before Christmas. They are pissed because they were told by a rep from Atari (some guy that was with Bob Brodie that I never heard of before) that they would _not_ be in the dealer's hands for Christmas sales and that it would probably be Jan-Feb '93 before dealers would have them in stock. Instead of bad mouthing STR for _reporting_ it, why not bad mouth Atari for announcing it? My dealer attended the CT show and confirmed to me personally that everying reported in STR was accurate. He was _very_ impressed with the Falcon. Wants to order a _bunch_, but relayed to me that his personal feeling is that he won't have them in stock until 2nd quarter '93. >...goes out of his way to dig up and report negative "news" STR doesn't have to "dig" up news. Heaven knows Atari USA drops enough nuggets that no one has to dig. Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 179 Mon Aug 31, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 21:57 EDT JERRY - I agree with you that the dealers need a shot in the arm, but for any to call it quits at this point is premature, at least if their decision to bail out is because of rumors supplied by STReport. Ditto for your 486ing friend. Geez, is it too much to ask to wait until October, or at least September 9, when we will have official word as to availability? Any talk of availability at this point is purely conjecture, and unhealthy to boot. I am glad to hear that you are sticking with Atari, though, and hope that your (and mine, and everyone else's) faithfulness is rewarded. JONESY - I'm a sex machine... S.JOHNSON10 - I didn't mean that demand for the Falcon will dry up if D2D is a hit, but that supplies might. A $1000 direct to disk sampler and MIDI sequencer could be a HOT item with musicians. In fact, a smart dealer could make a mint by bundling a Falcon with D2D, a good sequencer, and a SyQuest 88 hard drive, and advertising in Keyboard magazine. Granted, total system price would be over a grand, but it would certainly turn some heads. Hmm, is there any way I can copyright that idea? Soul Manager ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 180 Mon Aug 31, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:13 EDT Tom: Say you had a pal. He's a good friend. You've been friends a long time. Your wife/girlfriend cheats on you with him. Some guy named 'Rex Reade' has been after your wife for years, and sees your pal and her together. He takes some photos. He shows you the photos. In a fit of jealous rage do you: a) Divorce your wife and dump your 'friend'. b) Hire a private investigator to confirm what Rex says is true. c) Sleep with your "friend's" wife. d) Hack Rex to death with a kitchen knife. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 181 Tue Sep 01, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:04 EDT Soul Manager: At 1 meg per second (8 channels @ 50 Khz) an 88megger wont do you much good!! But a bundle of some sort would be great (not the hard drive, Atari isnt good at pricing them)... Curt ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 182 Tue Sep 01, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:46 EDT Where's my knife!!! ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 183 Tue Sep 01, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 00:49 EDT Thunderbird, E) Hit reset and wonder who wrote this stupid game F) Call up Genie to look for clues G) Jump around smashing cockroaches with a monkeywrench while playing Wagnerian arias on a kazoo. If Rex asks why, tell him it's performance art or hit him with the wrench. H) Reconsider making friends with Gov. Clinton I) Pay Rex to keep the whole thing quiet, lest he bring scandal upon my TV ministry. I just can't decide. Ben White ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 184 Tue Sep 01, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 01:29 EDT Spare me the drivel, please. Submit it to streport for publication. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 185 Tue Sep 01, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 03:11 EDT Speaking of drivel, rumors and STreport: here are a few breif excerpts from an article in my local newspaper titled "THE AMIGA IS DEAD" The article is comparing the AMIGA to Mac's and PC's..... Aftere many comparisons it goes on...What does it add up to? Clearly the Amiga is not gone. There are many people happily using Amigas for everything computers do. Nor is it simply a bad buy, the way an Atari ST would be. The Amiga is the premier desktop video machine, particularly because of the NewTek's Video Toaster. It is also a superbe multimedia machine, for interactive sound, animations and interactive presentations.... It is clear to me that this author is in line with the belief that the third party hardware is of prime importance to the computer in question........one might almost infer that with out the third party hardware the computer would be of no use at all?......(my comment).....the article continues with... ....Keep three things in mind when considering the Amiga. One, Greatvalley products (for lots of peripherals and accelerators 24bit video and genlocks) are the consensus picks for best ways to improve the Amiga........the article goes on to explain how these additions have effected the over all sales.........."Commodore has over a Billion Dollars in sales this year. The Amiga holds a majority of the desktop video market sience it has had the addition of the video solutions...." in closing the article finally comments..... ...." As Commodor points out, the Amiga is No.2 most popular computer in Europe, and growing stronger all the time." Well I offer this here just to maintain some perspective and show how important third party hardware and software support are for computers in general and Our Atari products in particular. I think it would be foolish not to understand just how much ground needs to be covered in order that the falcon or any other graphics desktop computer has to cover in order to compeat in the market of today! Make no mistake about it ! we..that is Lexicor and other software developers have a long and hard row to hoe if we hope to compete with the existing video systems now available. I am sure that if we all work togeather that this is not an impossible dream. Lee Seiler President Lexicor Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 186 Tue Sep 01, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 06:08 EDT D.ENGEL - So, what??? ST Report has an audio recording of what exactly was said? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 187 Tue Sep 01, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 06:13 EDT Spare me the hypocrisy. People like you take Ralph to task for reporting 'rumors' and 'innuendo' about Atari, then months later turn around and ask Sam T. pointed questions like "I hope we don't have another "crippled" STe deisgn.", or "We don't need another FSMGDOS vaporware.", or "I hope this thing is class "B" and we won't have another TT fiasco.", and the list goes on. It would seem to me that if he were so bad that he has a negative influence on Atari, that Atari and co. would care about him more than they currently do. I don't see any legal actions being served Ralph, so he must not be doing anything Atari considers as bad as you do. So go on blaming Atari for the things reported online, and blame raplh for saying them. Leave me out of it. Nothing is worse than a hypocrite. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 188 Tue Sep 01, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 07:59 EDT Thunderbird: Perhaps Lee means Atari end users and not Atari themselves. Lee can certainly clarify that message himself. To all: Please keep your name calling out of messages, folks. If you do not, I will have NO CHOICE but to delete on sight. Talk issues and NOT people, PLEASE! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 189 Tue Sep 01, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 10:30 EDT To: D.Engel Rex Reade is gay so I don't see that happening ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 190 Tue Sep 01, 1992 J.JENKINS19 [Jarius] at 15:48 EDT Rep to msg 177 I just came back from Manny's and they are NOT upset at all. The atari rep stated that the news on the release of the Falcons was what he expected! Are they going to continue to support Atari and carry Falcons... YES! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 191 Tue Sep 01, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 20:05 EDT I believe Soul Manager was thinking of the current norm in D2D. Two track stereo mixes from some other multitrack source. Ala Sound Tools by Digidesign. That is very feasible with the Falcon and an 88Meg Syquest. You can grow from there. The two tracks & 88meg would be great for editing DAT's, removing SCMS (scums) code, etc. --Kevin ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 192 Tue Sep 01, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 23:15 EDT Gee, thanks for telling me what "people like me are like". Now I know who that guy is that I see in the mirror every moring. And please learn the difference between " and '. I don't want anyone to think those assinine quotes are attributable to me. Thank you. -Tom McComb ================= RE: MANNY'S Thats great news Jarius. Now I just hope the damage done by the coast to coast posting of: MANNY'S TO DROP ST LINE? doesn't do his business additional harm. Sigh. -Tom I think someone owes MANNY'S a real big apology. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 194 Wed Sep 02, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 04:02 EDT D.ENGEL - "People like me..." huh? I'm certainly not being a hypocrite here. I certainly wish you'd try to get your point(s) across by not using terrible analogies, though. If you don't see any difference between what users discuss online and what STR should be reporting, then that's too bad. Nothing is worse than a poor analogy. J.JENKINS19 - That's great to hear, from both pro-Atari-support and anti-STR points of view. Where's STR's "well, that's what we HEARD!" response? So has anyone heard anymore rumors on when Atari's bigger birds will be flying in? From everything I've heard, rumors seem to put their arrival at early to mid Summer 1993 but as late as early Fall 1993. Also, are they any ideas as to what these machines may have that the Falcon030 doesn't? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 195 Wed Sep 02, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:34 EDT PMC.INC: I just deleted your message as there was no text. Anyone care to enlighten me on the Manny situation? They are and will be still in business. They will be selling Atari products but who said they were not? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 196 Wed Sep 02, 1992 J.JENKINS19 [Jarius] at 18:09 EDT Darlah, I went to Manny's and the Atari rep said that there were no hard feelings on their o part over the release dates/times from atari. In fact the rep said that the schedule whas what he had come to expect from atari and so was not surprised. He is however enthusiastic about the new machines and is eager to sell them. Actually I'm the first on the list for one ( if they get so much as 2 Falcons in october I'll have one!). Anything else? I'd be happy to update. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 197 Wed Sep 02, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 18:29 EDT Jarius: I too can't wait till I have a Falcon. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 198 Wed Sep 02, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 19:46 EDT Darlah: The bogus negative account was in STreport: ~~~~~ - New York City, NY MANNY'S TO DROP ATARI LINE? ----------------- According to our source, Manny's Music, a long time Atari dealer in the Big Apple is quite upset with Atari as a result of the information they received about the Falcon's disappointing holiday timetable. STR's correspondent was told; "When they were told it would be another dry Christmas all hell broke loose!" Hopefully, renewed negotiations will perhaps bring about a change of heart. ~~~~~~~~~ I'm sure MANNY'S must be delighted that the above was spread coast to coast. The tag line is sure to stick in their customers minds: "MANNY'S TO DROP ATARI LINE?" Just another sterling example of the kind of 'support' STreport provides to the Atari community. -Tom McComb ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 199 Wed Sep 02, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 20:26 EDT Perhaps someone told St Report this information. I am sure it will be corrected this week. We need all the Atari dealers we can get. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 200 Wed Sep 02, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 21:06 EDT To: Darlah Empty Messages From PMC.INC A Bug in Aladdin maybe? Why does the IBM have a New Aladdin program and not the Atari ST? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 201 Wed Sep 02, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:57 EDT Tom: I know the difference between " (inches) and ' (feet), but I don't see what it has to do with the price of Falcon030's in China. ;-> Everyone: I see no difference between what has been referred to as the things users talk about online, and the things I read in online magazines. What gives us the right to spread rumors willy-nilly in the message bases and in online conferences, while it's so ghastly for someone to report them in an online magazine??? Consider this: 1) The magazine in question always indicates whether it is reporting fact, rumor, hearsay, or whatever. If you read the text and the headlines around it, instead of just the bare facts reported, you will know what to believe and what to take with a grain of salt. 2) A large portion of complaints addressed to Atari here on GEnie, are based on things which were reported first you-know-where. The 'crippled STe' the 'STe DMA port' the '520STF's to Federated' the 'No Media Change Floppys', etc. etc. All of which _I_ first read in there. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have known to test my friend's DMA port on his STe, and he would never have known it was a bad one until 6 months later when he got a Megafile 30. Still a lot of people here try to keep this info out of the magazine. Why? The very same people talk about it enough here and gripe to Sam T. about it to his face. 3) Talking about such things in public message bases is FAR worse than having them in the magazine. I have seen a person read a message on GEnie, reword it on a BBS, and someone else reads it and tells me about it the next day. By this time the whole thing is so blown out of proportion and misinterpreted that it's completely wrong. At least in the magazines everyone gets the rumors first hand without 4th or 5th generation mutations. I can't say that I admire muckraking or yellow journalism, but so far I don't see anyone reporting anything any worse than what is said online here. In my opinion slamming a magazine for this is hypocrisy. Perhaps some of you have had bad feelings or ill will with ST-Report or it's reporters. Maybe you have even been legitimately wronged by them/it. I have had no contact with them other than reading the magazine, so I can only base my opinions on what I read. If they are a bunch of idiots in person or something, then does that make it right or mature to haze them in public? Is that not being just like you say they are? Like I said. I read it, form opinions, make decisions. I don't live my life around what I read online, there are more important things. Why can't we all just read whatever we want and not argue about it, or slam people around because they say something we don't like. _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 202 Wed Sep 02, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 22:06 EDT Tom, BOGUS negative account? Please furnish proof that the account was bogus. At the same time, please furnish proof that our correspondent wasn't told what was in the column. So far, all we know online (and it's third-hand) is that a Manny's sales- person (maybe more than one) thinks that they'll get some in and is happy with the Falcon. You don't know what negotiations happened since the article appeared. For all you know, the article might have lead to Manny's getting some Falcons (note: I'm NOT claiming this is what happened). You do not know what the management of Manny's thinks - only what one of Manny's reps thinks. BTW Tom, you keep talking about responsible reporting, etc. How do you feel about copyright infringement? See the following for the correct way to re- print an article from STReport. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" STR Online! "YOUR INDEPENDENT NEWS SOURCE" August 28, 1992 Since 1987 copyright (c) 1987-92 All Rights Reserved No.8.35 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Views, Opinions and Articles Presented herein are not necessarily those of the editors/staff, PCReport, STReport, AMReport, MCReport. Permission to reprint articles is hereby granted, unless otherwise noted. Each reprint must include the name of the publication, date, issue number and the author's name. The entire publication and/or portions therein may not be edited in any way without prior written permission. The entire contents, at the time of publication, are believed to be reasonably accurate. The STR editors, contributors and or staff are not responsible for the use or misuse of information contained herein or the results obtained therefrom. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Staff Editor for ST Report ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 204 Wed Sep 02, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 23:06 EDT Right, Lloyd. What PROOF do YOU have? I'm not the one that took this potentially damaging material and spread it around! Perhaps direct quotes from MANNY'S ownership would have been more appropriate instead of 'our [unnamed] sources'. But, hey, it was good negative stuff so let's run with it. Copyrights. Right. You capture other peoples writtings and slap a copyright on it. Yeah. That's ethical. You don't ask permission you just copy it and slap a copyright on it. Ask Al Fasholt (a PROFESSIONAL Journalist, not a junior journalist) what he thinks about that. I've had long missives of mine ripped off (atrocious spelling errors intact) and had them appear in Streport with one of your illustrious staff writers names slapped on it. And then a copyright on top. And now you have the gaul to scream copyright infringement?! Junior Journalism. Please. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 205 Wed Sep 02, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 23:15 EDT Don't bother trying to justify it anymore. I'm outta here. IGN PERM ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 206 Wed Sep 02, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 23:27 EDT TOM MCCOMB I've now had 2 dealers that were at the CT show confirm to me that the guy from MANNY's was _very_ upset when told he would not have the Falcon by Christmas. He _did_ state that he was going to drop the Atari line if he couldn't get Falcons. What went on _after_ the dealer meeting, I am not aware of. Maybe the Atari folks appeased him in some way. But, the report in STR was _not_ bogus if based on what went on _in_ the meeting. The two dealers I've spoken with do not wish to be named. I'm sorry they feel that way, but I will respect that. There was a third dealer that attended that I have not been able to contact, but I am satisfied that between the 2 STR reporters that were there and the 2 dealers I talked to _they_ have the full story. Were you at the meeting? Have you talked to anyone that _was_? I was told by one of the dealers that, "The guy from Manny's was really hot! He dominated the discussion and put the rep from Atari on the spot. He said he was going to drop Atari if he didn't have Falcons for Christmas." Can't get much clearer than that Tom. Do your homework. THUNDERBIRD -- Some people don't want to be told the emperor has no clothes. Even when you do tell them, they don't want to believe. Some might belive it but would _never_ admit it. Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 207 Wed Sep 02, 1992 J.JENKINS19 [Jarius] at 23:41 EDT Lloyd, The account is not third hand.... I went to Manny's. I spoke to the Atari rep. The Atari rep. told me that he wasn't even surprised when told about the releas dates. I wrote that here. Noone else came into the picture. Therefore it was second hand information. I am not saying that your source didn't hear what he heard, it's just that you are coming to us (the general Atari user) with something that IS third hand information (you printed what your correspondent heard from someone at Manny's) and get upset that people question that source over a second hand account. That t's not good (although you do have a point about your copywright...). But if you wanted to defend your position you should at least provide your source (since this is 3 people out)... MY source was Paul (I believe that was his name... he only initialed my receipt with a P.L.) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 208 Thu Sep 03, 1992 J.HUGHES23 [Jack ] at 00:36 EDT I am not sure if it was this topic or another, but there was a msg several weeks ago to the effect that "after many fabulous statistics" for maybe $300 (pipedream at at this time probably), quote "Is it PC compatible?" unquote. Which, IMHO, is a sad comentary on the general public, or at least the computer buying portion of same. One thing I am sure of, when I can no longer use this machine (1040STf expanded to 2.5M) or a compatible version (Falcon?) I'll give up and go back to keeping records and writing letters by hand. BTW, my baby brother is a long time employee of IBM. And I enjoy twisting his tail whenever possible. [( ) Jack ( )] ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 209 Thu Sep 03, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:48 EDT M.FARMER2 - The new PC Aladdin just fixes a few bugs and adds some new features that ST Aladdin and Amiga Aladdin users have had for some time. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 210 Thu Sep 03, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 06:30 EDT Tom, What PROOFS do WE have? We are not the ones that made the CLAIM that the article was BOGUS (i.e., 'fake'). Since YOU made that claim, YOU have to prove it. Copyrights? Whether you like it or not, we follow the Genie ST RT rules TO THE LETTER as for reprints from this RT. We print the posts VERBATIM, which means we reprint the posts 'word-for-word'...including spelling errors. We do not edit them in anyway - if we corrected your spelling, you'd probably complain...saying that the spelling error was on purpose and we took edited the 'flavor' out of your posts. We give full credit to the person who made the post (or article), our "illustrious staff writers" only take credit for compiling the article. As far as having "the gaul to scream copyright infringment", I did nothing of the sort. I simply 'reminded' you of the proper way to reprint one of STReport's articles...I didn't 'scream'. >>I'm outta here...IGN PERM. Sorry to see you go...bye. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Staff Editor for ST Report ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 211 Thu Sep 03, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 07:20 EDT Jarius, >>The account is not third hand... First hand - the owners of Manny's who made the original statements Second hand - one of Manny's employees who didn't hear the original statement made - Manny's _might_ be going to dump the ST line next week and he _might_ not know of it Third hand - what you tell us the employee said Just to clarify a couple of other things in your post #207... 1) I (or STReport) denies that our report was second-hand (told to us by a dealer who heard Manny's owners exact quotes). That's the reason the header into the article has a large question mark at the end. 2) I (nor STReport) get upset that people question our source or one of our articles. We do get upset when someone calls the article BOGUS (i.e., false) though. Just because we can't quote our source (who wants to keep doing business with Atari), doesn't mean the article is bogus. 3) The best way to lose a source is to provide his name...especially when he asks to remain unknown (I can't spell annonomous ). But back to the 'content' of your original post. I'm glad to see that Manny's is going to run with the Falcon line. We at ST Report feel that the Falcon is a top-notch machine (and you've never heard/seen us say anything else). Manny's carrying the Falcon line can only help make it a success. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Staff Editor for ST Report ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 212 Thu Sep 03, 1992 S.WINICK at 07:48 EDT D.D. and STReport staff.... What went on at last month's dealer meeting happened behind closed doors. The meeting was intended to be a working session with Atari, not a media event. Neither Atari nor the IADA issued a press release about the meeting, either before or after. Whatever was said by anyone present during that meeting was not meant for public consumption. If there's any question about Manny's continuing to sell and support the Atari line, I'd suggest you contact Manny's directly and put this new round of rumors to rest. Reporting second hand information, regardless of its accuracy or inaccuracy, is simply not in the best interest of the parties involved, and can do great harm. I'm sure Manny's is quite capable of issuing its own press releases to announce any new programs or plans that it wishes to be made public. Just to clarify what some readers appear to be misinterpreting --- STReport did NOT have reporters present at the Dealer Meeting. Their reporters were indeed in attendance at the CT AtariFest, even took an active and much needed participatory role. But..... the Dealer Meeting was a closed door session that did not include press coverage. Manny's participation at the CT meeting was very valuable, as was the participation by all attending IADA member dealers. Now.... let's get on with more important issues and allow Mannys to continue doing business and offering their customers the quality service and support that earned them a good reputation and loyal following. Instead of reporting additional rumors about what may or may not have been said, or what may or may not happen at some future date, why not instead send a reporter over to Manny's for a person-to-person interview, and review exactly what they're actually doing to support the Atari platform and their Atari customers? That type of interview and reporting would be a quite refreshing change of pace that just might even result in additional interest and new sales of Atari equipment. Sheldon Winick (IADA/Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 213 Thu Sep 03, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:59 EDT I am sure this was done with the intent of reporting what ST Report felt was important news. The only thing to be learned from all of this is checking directly with those that it effects only makes sense. Not only good sense but good reporting. We are all human though and do make mistakes the last time I checked. :-) I look forward to a retraction in the next issue to help aleviate any damage that this may have caused. DD: Your message above confuses me as it appears that you may have been the source for the information or that you are privy to it or were you just talking for the magazine in some capacity? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 214 Thu Sep 03, 1992 J.KUDRON [Jim~ST Sysop] at 10:45 EDT Sheldon, Thank you. Very well said. Jim Kudron 3Sep92 10:34:08 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 215 Thu Sep 03, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 14:11 EDT Darlah, >>I look forward to a retraction in the next issue to help aleviate >>any damage that this may have caused. Say what?? A retraction to what? There has been NO proof presented that what was in our article wasn't true. Even Sheldon didn't say that our facts were incorrect, only that we shouldn't have reported on what was a private meeting (which is the subject for another debate - only one at a time ). So what's to "retract"? Maybe you meant "clarification" or an "addendum"? How's this one... "According to a third-hand source, Manny's is hoping to get some Falcon's in before Christmas. The source hopes that they get at least two, so he can buy one - he's first on the will-call list. The source also reports that the Atari salesperson he talked to at Manny's was very impressed with the Falcon." ...there you go, a clarification. At this moment, that's all we do know. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Staff Editor for ST Report ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 216 Thu Sep 03, 1992 SANDY.W [sysop] at 16:20 EDT Actually I don't see why you should refer to this source as a "third-hand source." How are the numbers different for what has been posted here and your original source? I don't see the difference between someone who is relaying information he heard the store vs. someone relaying what he heard said in a private meeting. The distance from the original source is the same. How is the person passing along the information here to be considered any less reliable than your unnamed source, unless your unnamed source was Manny himself or the person who wrote the article? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 217 Thu Sep 03, 1992 J.COLE18 [John Cole] at 20:15 EDT Sheldon, Well, said! I too would like to see a real piece of reporting done about the Manny's incident ;-) Sensational snippets and rumers (as sensational as you can get in the Atari market ;-) without appearant follow-up doesnt seem professional, in my opinion. No matter how estranged STR is from Atari, a reporter should have attempted a follow thru with Art Pruzynski at Atari or with Many's Atari rep. Art is from the Unix division, atari's virgin princess, and I'm sure that he will do his best for the dealers and Atari. STR role of reporter requires it to lend some crediblity to the news it preaches. Even if all that apeaers is 'Atari was not availabe for comment' shows some effort at true reporting and not simply passing on a snippet from the grapevine. As Sheldon said, the meeting in question was a closed door meeting. This was done so Atari and it's dealers could get the truth from one another, without fear of public crusification. Both the Dealers and Atari are very concious of thier self image, and correctly attempt to enhance that self image at every turn. It is extremely important for such confidential meeting to remain confidential, in order for both the Dealers and Atari to trust one another with sensitive information. Developers and Dealers need to trust Atari, something not easily done over the past years, and Atari needs to trust it's dealers and developers. When trust is broken, it makes it harder to give out sensitive information to anyone. As an example, shortly after Falcon030's were shipped to developers in the US, one developer blatently broke NDA and loaned thier machine to an Atari publication! That makes it that much tougher to give extreamly confidental info to the remaining developers. The classic case of one bad apple is hurting us all. I cant blame Atari for being hesitant or gun shy with it's developers, but the other side of the coin makes it imparitive that I recieve extremely close cooperation from Atari. If I can't trust Atari and Atari can't trust the developers, cooperation will be very scarce. We all need to see a greater effort in reporting all things 'about' atari. No one needs to be a mouthpiece, real follow-up does not mean becoming a puppet. STR is a weekly magazine, and the short delays in publication are no excuse for not providing proper assurances that stories have been fully explored, even if that exploration is fruitless. It is entirely possible to have individualism and quality at the same time, all it takes is effort. John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 218 Thu Sep 03, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 21:15 EDT DARLAH - Don't be confused. I was not the source of the information. I did discuss the CT show with a dealer a few days after the show (I wanted to know his personal impressions of the Falcon :-). _He_ relayed to me the events that took place in the dealer meeting and the announcement that Falcons would not be available to dealers by Christmas and his disappointment in that. I did hear this before STR reported it, but my contact was "off the record" and respecting that, I kept our conversation to myself. There was other information he offered that I am not at liberty to divulge. Since the information was made public, I had occasion to call another dealer to make a purchase and he confirmed all that the first dealer relayed. The coments to me from _both_ dealers came unsolicited. They had no reason to lie to me and I believe their impressions of what occured at the CT meeting to be accurate. I jumped in here only because Tom McComb flatly said that the article was "bogus" and I wanted to challange his statement. Let's get one thing perfectly clear, Darlah. I do _not_ speak for STR or Ralph. The opinions that I post are _mine_ alone and, as you know, I _pay_ to post them. I have _no_ "capacity" with STR except that I have been working with Ralph on a promotional item for the WAACE show. 'Nuff said Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 219 Thu Sep 03, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 21:32 EDT Thunderbird - You make some good points about rumors and online magazines. There are personalities involved here, and that mucks up a serious discussion about STR. But, as a suggestion for that magazine, maybe readers could better put "rumors vs. facts" in perspective, if the rumors were always in a seperate article or column. Thinking back, I think the rumors (and reports by unnamed sources) are usually mixed right in, which can lead to confusion. Lloyd - I would think that a piece repeating what happened on the sales floor would be reasonable. No conclusions, no retractions, just an update on the "current status" at Manny's. Assuming the person who posted the message will allow you to quote his experience. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 220 Thu Sep 03, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 21:49 EDT Sheldon. I agree with you 100%. If the meeting was behind closed doors all info. should have stay inside doors. Is like having a meeting at someones home. Good and Bad things can be say but only the "BAD" things get mention by someone that was not invitated to the meeting. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 221 Thu Sep 03, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 22:00 EDT DD: Thank you for clarifying that. I just feel that it 'appears' that you are writing for St Report as you tend to respond to questions directed at them. Regarding the rest, mistakes can happen. I believe it is always good practice to go directly to the source. If you can't, you do the best that you can. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 222 Thu Sep 03, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:09 EDT >IGN PERM When you know you're wrong: LEAVE! _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 223 Thu Sep 03, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:51 EDT J.NESS - I believe that ST Report places news such as this under the title "ST- Report Confidential" which is subtitled something along the lines of "Rumors, tidbits, information". You can't lable a rumor any clearer than that. My point is this: we can all read about Manny's to drop Atari? from the same place, under the word 'Rumors'. Or, we can hear about it on Joe Bloe's Awesome ST BBS in a message saying "I heard this huge chain of dealers is dumping Atari because Atari won't ship any Falcon's to the U.S. until the 2nd quarter 1993!!!". I see this happening all the time, and yet everyone still wants to blame STR for it. By the way, there are certian things which go on 'behind closed doors' which the public has a right to know about: i.e. Watergate, Contragate, S&L Scandal, etc. But maybe this isn't the same. I don't know. All I _do_ know now is that there is a lot of counterproductive discussion going on. Why are we debating when we could be talking about the Falcon 030?!?!?! Does anyone know if they're really 'out' in Europe??? _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 224 Thu Sep 03, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:03 EDT FOLKS, Trust me... I have the NEW version of PC Aladdin and well... BOOOOOO you just can't believe how much better the ATARI versions have ALWAYS been compared to the DOS..text.. versions.. BE GRATFULL... Lloyd, SO?... so your protected.. no matter what you say or the way you say it... I am happy for you... "Man screems FIRE in a crowded theater" Winick, YEAH, I agree! ... Lets face it.. you can look at the class of water as either half empty or half full... MOST of the time STReport see's it as half empty... BUT we are all so starved to argue over something.. that we read it anyway.. obviously, if we all STOPPED reading it for a couple months and they couldn't sell their buddies HardDrives at the end of EVERY edition... well... maybe... they'd change? Jerry Richter.. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 225 Thu Sep 03, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:17 EDT Thuderbird, Out in Europe... hmmmmm I was just thinking.... If the Computer Company I work for started to HEAVILY mass produce a computer.. it had better be the way it's going to be for at least (6)months minimum, depending on the financial resources of said company... hmmmmm if ther're mass producing them now in Japan then they had BETTER BE FFC compatible NOW "No.. We have not yet submited to FCC".. hmmmm If the units they are making now are NOT FCC class "B", what makes us think they will be anytime soon?... Mr. Townsand.. will you PLEASE respond.. Are the Falcon030's now in production FCC class "B" certifiable? (please say yes) .. We deserve the truth.. Until we get an answer to this question the MANNY'S debate is mute. Jerry Richter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 226 Thu Sep 03, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 23:43 EDT Well, I work for Guitar Center, and me, and our buyer for that dept. are happy, and excited to be selling Falcons, as soon as, and whenever they are released. I have sold out of 1040STs right now, and thats because we sold them, not because we didnt have any. We have 15 stores in four states (Chicago, Minnesota, Texas and California) and I am very excited to start selling Falcons... Curt Fluegel ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 227 Thu Sep 03, 1992 J.HUGHES23 [Jack ] at 23:44 EDT I am not to sure who/what Mannys is/are and if, as I suspect, it it an east coast vendor whether or not they continue to support Atari will have little impact on me on the west coast. What *does* bother me is the __lack of support__ by Atari (ie the Tramiel's) in general. No machines, No advertising, No local advertising support. I just recently learned that my nearest Vendor was going to bag it. While this bothers me, who can blame them? With little or no support from the source, why should they continue??? This is a tremendous platform, but if the Company does not want to support it wholeheartedly, why should anyone else? I'm not giving up but sure wondering........... [( ) Jack ( )] ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 228 Fri Sep 04, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 00:20 EDT Why not just call your local dealer (or favorite mail order house if you don't have a local dealer) and ask _them_ if they will have Falcons for Christmas. That's all I had to do. And that's when I was told by my dealer (who attended the CT meeting) NO! Be your own investigative reporter. Feel free to report back here their reply. Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 229 Fri Sep 04, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 00:30 EDT Court, 4 stores? ever think of stocking software? like maby Lexicor's Phase 4 series. You know our prism paint runs on all ataris even the new falcon! We hope atari sells a zillion falcons and we hope that all the folks who carry atari hardware will offer "our" software as well. About that "Right to Know" comment? I have a bit of trouble understanding who decides "what" the public has a right to know and what the "public" doe not have a right to know? I am woundering how any one draws a parallel between obivius criminal intent such as the case in WaterGate and a private meeting between Atari and it's Dealers? Are you suggesting that ATARI is ploting some criminal adventure? and are you saying that your the keen eye of STreport keeps such intentions in check threw their investigative reporting? What ever happned to the right of a business to conduct it's private business in private? Given STreports apparent self appointmnet as keeper of the holy ATARI Grail, would it be in the publics best interest to be informed about ABICO's business practices? what about rumors about their honesty? How about that? does the public have a "RIGHT" to know such things? Darlah has made it crystal clear that personal name calling and attacks would not be allowed! How different is the simple act of name calling differ from "Rumor"..ing (syn?) if false the rumors that is then what is the public's protection against what amounts to public lieing, and if sources are "unknown" or third, forth or Fith hand and un provable or murkey...what use- full end is their in such practices? If you are talking about the principal of the thing... ethics then I should think that the only valid "news" would fall into the catagory of confirmed reports, with sources mentioned, you know...." Mr. Seiler commented at the end of the meeting that ..."Leonardo color cards would be sold at this years Glendale Show". Thats a lot different than some thing like ...Its Rumored that the now year late Leonardo Card claimed by Lee Seiler to be the soure of his un convincing advertisements, and over a year late would be shown and maby sold at this years Glendale Show......That is if Lexicor shows up! Making an editorial comment about a quote is quite acceptable, but speculation and rumors just seem to do a great deal of harm. I just don't see how ir is fair or reasonable for anyone to act so responcability, no matter how titilating it is or how little els of substance their may be to talk about. Just a few thoughts from me Lee ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 230 Fri Sep 04, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 02:31 EDT Lee, The right to know extends beyond politics. Anything that could effect the public in general is news, and the public has a right to know. Car magazines put out tons of pre-preview stuff on new models - some of the info they get from sneaking onto test tracks and some from inside sources. You talk about "private business" - Atari is a PUBLIC corporation. Let's say that General Motors is getting ready to lay off 100,000 of its employees - and it hasn't made the announcement public yet. Doesn't the public (and the employees) have the right to know this information - if the news media gets a hold of it before its released? If Atari (for example only) wants to switch to pink telephones, that's their business. It doesn't effect the public one way or the other. However if one of their few remaining dealers - one of the largest on the East Coast - is dissatisfied, that can/will effect the public and is NEWS. Rumors - have you ever read through the NewsBytes newswire here online? Many of their news blurbs are rumors, "It is rumored that...." or "It is reported that...." - the same holds true with the AP newswire. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Staff Editor for ST Report ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 231 Fri Sep 04, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 02:37 EDT This stuff should really be Topic 8 or the STR topic.What has it got to do with the Falcon other than when it may appear in dealers. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 232 Fri Sep 04, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 07:08 EDT Sorry Lloyde I don't buy it! There is no absolute right to know! the media often spouts this nonsense, in much the same way as reporters will stand on "their consitutional" rights to keep their sources confidential. The right does not exist! and never has. In addition just where does it say that a publicly held corporation has no right to private business activities? here again you are miss stating and mixing apparent rights with nonexistant rights. Under your theory the general public should then have free access to all "Falcon" spects, the wiring diagrams, OS codes and all trade secrets. The general public should have the right to publish willy nilly the daily books of ATARI and any thing else that might be of any interest. What about the personel records of the company and how about the private lives of the employees, Oh yes and all the stock holders. All of these things and people "could have" an impact on the company, which might have an impact on the community at large! Under your sweeping theory the journalish as an absolute right to say, do and publish for public consumtion and idle interest anything that "you" decide is in the public interest. seems to me that you are way off base....there some very real limitations on such activities and a great deal of harm can and often is done in the name of "journalisum" by people who through self appointment take it apon them selves to "expose" what they think is for others own good. I think we all see a lot of this every day, "a calous disregard" for ethical, and moral consideration of others, both in their personal lives and in the bussiness world as well. I think the measure of such things is in how it effects thoses who are written about and thoses who read the news. Please tell me how the current issue has been beneficial to anyone except STreport, and how it has benifeted the release of the Falcon, ATARI or the poor shop owner who was at issue? Lee ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 233 Fri Sep 04, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:32 EDT In checking with legal........oh they love me by now. :-) I found out that if a said business was hurt by so called rumors and the business chose to sue, then the sources could be demanded. If the news source chose to hide behind their protection of sources right, they would be found responsible for the damages if the jury chose to go that route. His personal feeling was that in this day and age he would opt for a jury if he was defending the business. He seems to think that there would be more sympathy for them. Protection of sources originally was necessary due to the fact that at times people's health was in question. The source told the news reporter something that may put him/her in a position that would make one wonder if he was to be alive the next day. These sources HAD to be protected. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 234 Fri Sep 04, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 14:48 EDT Lee, You're right, the right of privacy vs the public's right to know have - and will continue to - interact with each other throughout American history. I feel that as long as the press obtains their information legally (i.e, _they_ did nothing illegal to obtain the information) AND as long as the information is about something that can effect the public, it is fair game to be published. Let me give you a personal example. My company sells artificial turf. Much of my product carries a 5-year sun degragation warranty (warrantied not to degregate due to the ultra-violet rays of the sun more than 50% in 5 years). In Arizona this warranty is very important. Now let's say that I find out that the company supplying the yarn (who is the company that covers the warranty) is getting ready to go bankrupt. Should I tell my customers that 'inside/private' information? If they know, they will not pay the premium price for this quality of turf - which then can drive the yarn manufacturer into bankruptcy even faster. If I don't tell them, then they are paying for something they won't get, i.e., a 5 year warranty. Who's rights are more important? Or lets say that I (STReport) hears that JOE BLOW software company is getting ready to leave the ST market. JOE BLOW has had a good history of fine soft- ware, fast bug fixes and upgrades, and great customer support. When a cus- tomer buys from them, they're buying more than just software, they're buying reputation and future support. Does the public have the right to know that JOE BLOW is leaving the market - which will probably cost JOE BLOW some last minute sales? IMO, yes, the public does have the right to know that information. That way they can make an informed buying decision. Lloyd Pulley At this point, I am speaking only for myself ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 235 Fri Sep 04, 1992 SANDY.W [sysop] at 15:52 EDT And if Joe Blow was only thinking about leaving the market, but had not yet made the final decision, you probably just made it for him. A lot of people need to be able to bounce ideas off others, be it trusted friends or colleges. This holds true for any profession or industry. Private meetings are one way of providing for this need. Thanks to those who do not respect the idea of privacy, people are no longer able to jake a joke or blow of steam or brain storm ideas for fear that someone will leak a probably inadvisable comment to the press. Not only does this add to the stress of trying to conduct business, it can drive someone out of the business when they have had enough of the second guessing and critiques of possible actions vs the final decision. In this regard, the rumor mongering press does the public a great disservice. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 236 Fri Sep 04, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 18:19 EDT I do not see what the problem is If ST report is telling the Truth then they have every right in reporting it. If they are not reporting the truth then they need to find truthfull facts to report. Is that what we are pointing fingers at? To: D.Engel He just loves His Atari alot, he will be ok To: J.richter Well the man that screemed fire in a crowded theater went to jail (he was not protected). To: C.Fluegel So, none of your stores are in North Carolina. I think N.C. only had 1 or 2 stores that sell Atari. I would like to see a listing of every Store atari does send computers to with addresses and phone numbers, im sure it would fit on 2 pages. To: Who Ever Maybe Atari can place addess). A Message From The Desk Of Mark Farmer (A Ditto Head). To: Lepulley Free Press all the way, but responsable reporting is the key. The only time the Public should not know is if it has something to do with the national defence that could hurt a military operation in the future or ongoing. I do not think we have any Atari computers in any missles (Just a guess). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 237 Fri Sep 04, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 18:44 EDT To: Who Ever My last message should have included Maybe Atari can Addvertize on Talk Radio like Rush (EIB) or Allen's show since Rush has over 12.5 million listeners and Allen has over 5 million, and Radio advertizing is much cheeper than TV. Both Allen And Rush are members of Compuserve and use Macintosh computers (yuk) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 238 Fri Sep 04, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 20:11 EDT LEE - You say.... "I think the measure of such things is in how it effects thoses who are written about and thoses who read the news. Please tell me how the current issue has been beneficial to anyone except STreport, and how it has benifeted the release of the Falcon, ATARI or the poor shop owner who was at issue?" You make it sound like the press is only entitled to print good news or news that has positive effects on those who are written about or who read it. You expect STR and other online magazines to _only_ write articles that will _benefit_ Atari? What about _informing_ the reader, _even_ when the information is a detriment to Atari? You mention the current issue is only beneficial to STR? Can you explain _how_ STR benefits? You mention that there is _no_ benefit for Atari, the Falcon or shop owners. What about a benefit to the _users_? Why do some developers, dealers and Atari employees keep forgetting about the _users_? Their CUSTOMERS! It's not the job of the press to paint pretty pictures or act as pubic relations firms for private interprise. Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 239 Fri Sep 04, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 20:45 EDT Towns & Brodie, You do realize that those late night infomecials can be much cheaper than regular 1 minute spots in more prime times. Infomercials must work ok as ads. The same companies keep using them for years. Heck, an Atari infomercial would be kinda neat. --Kevin ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 240 Fri Sep 04, 1992 SANDY.W [sysop] at 21:35 EDT Sorry, D.D., but while I can see how some private information could benefit the users, I cannot see how this particular information helped them at all. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 241 Fri Sep 04, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 22:04 EDT Yeah, maybe "Amazing Discovories" could discover this wild and wooley computer ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 242 Fri Sep 04, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 22:51 EDT ATARI, Mr. Towns, PLEASE reply to message 225... is the Falcon FCC certifiable now?... if not ... like the TT030 ... well you know thew rest! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 243 Fri Sep 04, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 23:40 EDT Now Lloyed we come to the heart of the matter, I was hoping you would pick up on the matter of "TRUTH-PRIVATE and PUBLIC" rights. First I am woundering why you did not respond to my question about the Public's right to know about an Atari vender who may have questionable or even dishonest business practices? Do you consider that fair game? How about angery customers who get shafted by mail order ATARI venders? Would you consider such disclousers in say: a forum like this? Yes I know darlah would pull them, but just supose some on were able to discise it some how to appear as a news or journalistic release? If you were the target of such a writing would you demand sources? would you demand proof? Would such an effort be in the public interest? Lets say just for the sake of the argument that such a claim were made and you were guilty of some sort of consumer Fraud. You would feel real bad about being exposed I am sure? Of cours it would be worse yet if you were innocent! see the point of having a spotless reputation as a journalist? As a practical matter, all other issues aside, it is very hard to know if a rumor is based on truth or just personal interest? On the one hand a rumored news item may have little or no ill effect, on the other hand what protects people, business from the damaging effects of deliberate mis reporting and hatefull rumor spreading? A point to consider is that ATARI in having private meetings may be doing some very important and potentially critical business to survive and make the now must have FALCON available. The disclosure of the thrust of this meeting could potentially kill US marketing, I am not saying that it did or that this particulre meeting would only that it might have, do you see that? surely you must understand that one personss TRUTH may not be another persons TRUTH! The fact is that, and I am sure you have seen situations where, in the heat of self rightous search for "their version of precived TRUTH" people have done a lot of damage to others. That is why I pointed out that the so called constitonal right to hold sources secret does not exist, and why some very out spoken journalist have spent considerable time in the pokey! Beside think of how much better it is to deal with confirmed facts instead of rumors! Well there were some other interesting issues I was going to dive into, but this is getting over long, BTW I like you simple stright forward responces much better than the >...< cut and quote attacks. I do enjoy the give and take with you! Oh and you really don't have to say it's you personal opinion...!:-) it is always clear who you speak for by the way you respond. Lee ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 244 Sat Sep 05, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 01:01 EDT Jim, I think the Falcon would have to work while on fire before "Amazing Discoveries" would pick it up.:-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 245 Sat Sep 05, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 03:01 EDT J Richer.. I don't know. I am not in the "loop" for FCC certification of our products. I do know that we have a group in Dallas Texas (Atari MicroSystems) that handles all of that stuff for us. They do a pretty good job. I would think that Falcon030 will get FCC Class B cerification fairly easily. Again, I don't know the answer. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 246 Sat Sep 05, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:37 EDT LEPULLEY - Yes, but usually if the news source is at all respectable, those "There are rumors that..." pieces are usually concluded with "so-and-so denied/wouldn't confirm/couldn't be reached about this." Did anyone writing for ST Report even attempt to call Manny's to ask about this? J.ALLEN27 - Well, if someone suggests it to AMAZING DISCOVERIES and they decide to do it, that someone gets paid around $1000 or so for the idea. However, I don't know if Atari would 'authorise' them as official dealers. By the way, I agree that the whole STR issue should be taken elsewhere as it has little to do with the Falcon. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 247 Sat Sep 05, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:20 EDT Curt Fluegel - What state do you operate out of? I drop by the Guitar Center in Roseville (St. Paul) from time to time, but I've never seen any Atari hardware and only very old Atari software. I'd be very interested to know if they will sell Falcons when they're available, or what their future Atari plans are. As for the debate over the relative virtues of STReport, I wish someone would move it to another topic. I want to read about Falcons here, not be bogged down by uninformed arguments over first amendment rights. I will gladly offer my humble opinion on the matter, however, speaking as someone who has a BA in English and experience writing an opinion column for my campus newspaper (3 years) and as editor of our annual literary magazine (2 years). STReport seems to report some worthwhile information, but the manner it does so can hardly be viewed as professional. While journalists are trained to write at an eight-grade level (the reason I am not a journalist), I don't think a computer magazine should come across as in this manner. Personally, I don't take the "magazine" seriously, although there are many that do. I hope readers are intelligent enough to distinguish reporting from attention- grabbing, but I know there are some that aren't. And Lloyd, if I didn't know the difference between "effect" and "affect," I'd be out of a job. Jim Allen - Falcons work while on fire? Wow, I better call STReport and tell them... Soul Manager ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 248 Sat Sep 05, 1992 S.WINICK at 07:10 EDT John (TOWNS), On the Jewish holiday of Passover, the youngest child in the family asks what is known as the "Four Questions" which serves as the foundation of retelling the story of the exodus from Egypt. The questions are all an expansion of the basic "Why is this night different from all other nights?" Perhaps what your Atari owners are trying to ask is merely their version of that question, rephrased as "Why is this Atari different from all other Ataris?" Perhaps the 1992 version of "The Four Questions" in Atariland might go something like this: Why is this Atari (Falcon) different from all other Ataris? On all other Ataris, the FCC wreaked havoc, but this Atari we're told will have no problem! On all other Ataris, FCC rejections caused delays in approval and product supply to the United States market, but this Atari, we're told, will fly through with ease, despite the addition of so much extra electronics within the same case that has been so troublesome in the past. Has Atari devised a neat way that by adding a faster, more powerful processor, 10 extra megs of RAM, a hard drive, cooling fan motor and DSP circuitry, the RF will be reduced? Neat trick! On all other 1040-style Ataris, copious amounts of metal shielding and what appears to be after the fact supplemental shielding along with a gaggle of screws and twist tabs had to be added in order to finally get an FCC Class B rating, but on this Atari the folks back in Sunnyvale tell us they're not at all concerned. On all other 1040-style Ataris FCC approval dragged on for many months, but on this Atari there doesn't appear to be any sense of urgency to start the approval process rolling by actually submitting the thing to the FCC. After all, it is only September and Sam didn't promise to have them start arriving until next month anyway. Well.... there you have it. I hope those of us who are truly dedicated to the platform will enjoy this "religious experience" parody. The questions and concerns of your Atari owners are sincere, and this message is not intended as anything other than a lighthearted parody of their concerns. I hope it is taken in just that spirit. ;-] Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 249 Sat Sep 05, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 09:17 EDT Ah this is Category 18 and it is a jumbled mess and I have the flu. Nice to see some new folks posting in this area. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 250 Sat Sep 05, 1992 SANDY.W [sysop] at 10:12 EDT If you are interested in Falcon information only, there is a topic for it in the Atari Category, Category 14 Topic 20. Category 18 has always been a catch all for rumors, topic drift, and heated discussions. It was never intended to be a primary location for discussions that could fit into the other Bulletin Board categories, but sometimes there is good information to be found here too. Now that the Falcon has been announced and is no longer a rumor, it is time for the main discussion to move to Atari's category. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 251 Sat Sep 05, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 14:00 EDT The reason I am confident in Atari's ability to get FCC certification for the Falcon030 reasonably easy (in other words, without alot of modifications) is because since the MegaSTE and TT, Atari's R&D on the hardware side is completely different. We have some real quality people overseeing our production engineering and they have been involved in the hardware ever step of the way. I don't really want to say more, but I think things will go pretty smoothly. But, I don't know when it will happen or if it is happened already. -- John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 252 Sat Sep 05, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 14:28 EDT Soul Manager, Luckily for me, my job doesn't depend on knowing when to use 'effect' and 'affect'....and probably 94.9% of the population doesn't know - or care - either. I feel the important thing is that my meaning and intent comes come across to the reader. Minor grammarical and spelling errors are for English majors to quibble over. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 253 Sat Sep 05, 1992 D.OSBORNE4 [SYSOZ] at 14:28 EDT J.ALLEN27, Well, if you get the Tiny Tubo 30's out the door, I would be willing to spend some time in constructing a standard tower case to plop in any 520/1040/Mega/STE or Falcon. It is not hard to do. I did it with my Mega 4 and learned some vaulable tips in board placement and mounting. Sysoz ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 254 Sat Sep 05, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 14:28 EDT Towns, Thankyou, thankyou for responding! It would only be logical that the Falcon would have gone through this Atari MicroSystem group before mass production starts!! could you ask someone who in-the-loop about the FCC class "B" certifiability of the Falcon030 and get back to us .. this is extremely important to the US Atari customer base! Myself and other Atari enthusiast in the NW will not relent on getting this information... considering the past ... you know.. we are gun-shy! OOPS.. Sheldon, If I had read your message first.. I may have let mine go! ... thankyou... As a large ATARI dealer, you definitly need a STRAIGHT answer..(and there is NO reason that John Towns can't get that answer unless ATARI is keeping this information from him)..to you and me and all the other Atari users out there! My company submits to the FCC very early on in the cycle.. If ATARI is truly serious about Falcons in the US why would this submission be ommited? maybe it has been submitted? Mr. Town please find out and let us know. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 255 Sat Sep 05, 1992 CHERRY.FONTS [Todd] at 15:49 EDT Sheldon, speaking of Exodus.. What we need is a Moses who'll lead all the marketing dollars safely out of Germany and into the promised land. Lloyd, Minor grammarical (sic) errors are what will cause your "meaning and intent" to become blurred. If you want to play news editor you could at least take an interest in our language. Sadly, this is another case of "The power of the press belongs to those who own one." Say, I think that would make a catchy subtitle for ST Report. :-) ..Todd ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 256 Sat Sep 05, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 18:01 EDT Sheldon, Four questions eh? :-) It sounds as if Atari has used what has worked in the past on the Falcon. The metal shielding has been effective on the other keyboard case computers. The real problems were when they switched to metalized coatings on the TT and MSTe enclosures. I am not aware of any other computer in a plastic case with a clock over 16 MHz that has passed FCC class B. The coatings work OK, but is is tough to seal the seams. A properly designed metal enclosure will eliminate better than 90% of the Electro Magnetic Interference (EMI) problems (metal shielding can be 100% effective provided no wires exit the box :-). The screws and metal tabs on the sheet metal shielding Atari uses are very important components to keep the "bad" energy in. EMI will leak out of the smallest slot or gap. You start to run into trouble with slots greater than 5 or so inches in length. Such a slot will let energy out in the wavelengths the FCC is worried about. The tabs and screws ensure gaps between the shields are closed within these dimensions. The Falcon also apears to use surface mount and multilayer board technologies. Each of these are roughly worth 10% reductions in EMI. There are other things the designers could have done using current technology. Lets say they picked up another 10% suppression here. There is a limit to how "bad" EMI in a computer device can get before the computer itself no longer runs -- sort of like when you set a monitor on top of the MSTe and the floppy no longer works :-) The above percentages a based on a computer being right at the maximum. So if you add these "back of the envelope" guestimates together the design looks like it should pass: Metal shielding ................ 90% Surface mount components........ 10% Multilayer board ............... 10% Other techchnology ............. 10% ----- EMI reduction over max allowed 120% Of course the best design is moot if not submitted with enough lead time to make it through the regulatory approval cycle. You will know for sure if the Falcon meets emissions requirements when it starts shipping in Germany. The technical details of emissions restrictions are roughly the same in the US and Germany. The "bureaucratic" differences are another story. I can tell you more about that side if anyone is interested. -- Ron ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 257 Sat Sep 05, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 18:57 EDT Sandy, So, is safe to assume I can IGN PERM this topic and not miss any 'Falcon' info since there is already another topic by that name. It seems confusing to some having 2 topics with the same name even if they are in 2 different categories. Also, there is another topic that this stuff also fits in and again having another topic for this is confusing. Is Category 18 (no matter what the TOPIC is) open for this sort of stuff? I don't mind the debating but, I have certain topics marked for this sort of stuff and I don't want to miss important info on the Falcon by IGN PERMing this topic. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 258 Sat Sep 05, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 19:04 EDT Towns. New R&D people! Now we know why the Falcon has so much to offer. I think they are going a great job. Falcon, the computer that everyone needs in the home. It will make VCR-video watching more enjoyable. Don't like the new Madonna video now showing on MTV? Well edit your own version of the video to your likings all with the Falcon. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 259 Sat Sep 05, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 19:32 EDT Oh Lloyd, I have to take exception to your statement about "minor grammarical and spelling errors." These are not problems just for English majors, but an indication of declining literacy within the United States. I am not at English major but an engineer, a group that is notorious for ignoring spelling and grammar, and I find that spelling and grammar errors greatly detract from meaning and intent. I find it very difficult to take a publication with these errors seriously. To me it is indicitive of the care that has gone into the publication. I have to wonder that if the editors and publishers don't take the time and make the effort to make their publication appear professional, how much time and effort was put into the actual content? (verifying sources, etc.) In my world, I know that if I write a proposal or a paper I'd better make it as correct as possible or those who read it will never get to the content. Their reaction will be 'This clown can't even use the English language . . . how can he design anything?' The same is true of spoken English. If a presenter stutters and stumbles or uses improper English (or if every third word is YO! or some obscenity), the content of what he/she is trying to say will be lost. (Our politicians should learn this!) Communication is an exteremely important process. Grammar and spelling are part of that process. I feel that it is the RESPONSIBILITY of publications to enhance that process. I'm not just picking on STReport - check out USA Today for some really bad examples. Mike Allen ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 260 Sat Sep 05, 1992 SANDY.W [sysop] at 20:05 EDT Wayne - Yes, Category 18 is different from the rest of the categories in this Bulletin Board. Most of these topics started as topic drift in the main categories and were transfered here. If you read some of the other topics in this category you will find a great deal of topic drift in most of them. I can't say there is no possibility you will miss something of interest regarding the Falcon, but the important facts about the machine should be found in the Category 14 topic, while extended debate about various Atari decisions will most likely be found here. The sysops will be trying to keep things organized along those guidelines, but trying to keep this place organized is like trying to count feathers in a hurricane. :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 261 Sat Sep 05, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 21:42 EDT Todd, I do have an interest in "our language", I just believe some of the supposed grammarical and spelling rules stand in the way of communications rather than enhance it. How many people didn't understand what I was attempting to say due to my using 'effect' instead of 'affect'? Also, what does my "playing news editor" and STReport have to do with the post in question? It was plainly stated in that post that I was speaking for myself. When I post online as an individual, I pay little attention to proper grammar and spelling, I pay attention to making my point. Mike Allen, I guess it was the wrong post at the wrong time. I realize that my grammar, punctuation and spelling are bad - and have admitted to it many times - but I took exception to my use of a minor (in most peoples minds) misuse of the lan- guage, when daily there are much worse examples made by others - in this very discussion. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 262 Sat Sep 05, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 21:57 EDT Dan, it's a deal, and I'll buy the first one!!! I couldn't think of keeping a Falcon locked up in that little case, I want a Tower case to spread its wings in ;-) Don't tell the Humane Society, they'd call the case animal cruelty ;_0 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 263 Sat Sep 05, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 22:47 EDT I too have terrible grammar. I would hope that we can see past that and see the intent and if not ask. I am with Lloyd on this issue. I don't care how many spelling errors he makes. I just care about what he is saying as I do with everyone. In a magazine, I think you must use care to correct and edit. In this BB, I would hope you can let your hair down, so to speak, and not worry about corrections. I think too much worry in this area causes people to feel stifled. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 264 Sat Sep 05, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 22:59 EDT WAIT, I know.. sell the Falcon at Chelsea AUDIO and other SNOB appeal Audio/Video stores!! Maybe thats why its one piece design! snap.. carry.. and snap from PageStream to your Big Screen to edit some Hi-Fi super8 tapes for the folks back home!... WOW we could all team up and BLOW AWAY people on Funniest Videos... ------------