==================================================================== (C) 1992 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== ************ Topic 20 Thu Aug 01, 1991 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] (Forwarded) Sub: Atari "Falcon" Project The August 1991 ST Format quoted Sam Tramiel mentioning "the Falcon project" and other new ST-based machines other than the ST Book and STylus. They're not rumors if big Sam mentioned them personally! 212 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 1 Sat Jul 11, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 08:44 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: S.WINICK I have not given up on Atari computers, I have been aloted $500.00 per month to spend on my computer (phone bills, Genie, Software and hardware). Most of that I save for my next computer. i talked to my Dad (Im 35 Years old) he was a Airforce computer programer for IBM back in the 60's and he likes his 486 33mhz he just got (he was in binary programing back then) i told him one year they actualy had languages out for the computers it was like opening up a new world to him. so anyway when I was talking to him last night (trying to make up my mind) decided to wait till 1-Oct-92 when I go home before I go to Korea and check out the system for a month (30 Day Vacation) before I go to Korea. Maybe by then I may get more Falcon educated. since I know nothing about it. the only thing I know (I think) is it has better graphics than SVGA. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 2 Sat Jul 11, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:33 EDT I'm starting to save for a Honda Accord. I'll hate it, but at least I'll be able to find parts and service for it. Not to mention I'll have access to service stations when I'm on the road. I can probably get one with an air-bag now, too. I love my Testarossa, but I'm tired of being the odd man out, and Accords are available >>NOW<<. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 3 Sat Jul 11, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 11:42 EDT Working with people that own Accords and Testarossas, the people with the Accords can find parts, the service isn't $1,000 a day, and they don't draw every cop's attention. The people with Accords seem to drive their car more. And the world is that super expensive cars are out. Jeeps, Volvos, and Acuras are in. So it depends on what you want a computer for. Do you want to use it, or do you want to look at it and say, "this baby is fast!" Btw, I'm still keeping my MSTE. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 4 Sat Jul 11, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 12:48 EDT Mark and all, An upcoming Atari Advantage issue (I think it gets mailed out this week) will feature a review of the Falcon that should spark a new round of discussion. This week's STR features some sneak peeks from unnamed sources that are of interest to anyone following the Falcon story closely. And I have something in the works for a special Realtime Conference sometime in August, where we will have someone from Atari in a position to know all the details about the Falcon....and (don't faint) he'll be TALKING about it and answering questions about it! The details are still being worked out for the conference, so keep an eye on the RT bulletins and Category 1, Topic 11 for further details. It looks like we may very well be chin-deep in Falcon details over the course of the next several weeks. Won't that be a change! - Jeff Williams Asst. Sysop ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 5 Sat Jul 11, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 12:58 EDT Mark, The "Falcon" is supposed to be released Sept/92 at the Boston Computer Show. If it's on time (Bob Brodie says it is), there should be plenty of information about it by 01-Oct-92. Don't buy a klone. Once you start down the path to the Dark Side of the Force, you cannot turn away. -Chris- Also, Thunderbird strikes again... :) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 6 Sat Jul 11, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 16:11 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: Jeff.W [ST Sysop] Ok well if info will start to flow from Atari maybe it would be worth waiting a fue weeks for. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 8 Sat Jul 11, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 19:25 EDT What Jeff said! Hang loose folks, there will be plenty of news before the kids go back to school. // Ron @ Atari Advantage Magazine // ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 9 Sat Jul 11, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:38 EDT Just for the record I'll have to predice that the Falcon would most likely be the computer world's equivalent to a $20,000 Testarossa. Sure, the service might cost a little more, but they won't break down as often as klones (or act broken because your didn't have the necessary degrees in computer science required to set up all those nifty "config.whatthisthing" and "autoexec.confusion" files and correctly setting your DIP switches and jumper shunts.) Sure they cost slightly more than a klone with similar hardware specs, but by virtue of being a krippled klone with Windoze and MeSsyDOG, the klone is roughly 1/2 as fast. Sure they don't have 50,000 word processors and 97,239 spreadsheet programs available, but you only _need_ ONE _good_ program of each type to get your work done. Besides, the majority of klone software is cheap text-based applications with Apple ][ user interfaces, or mega pricey windoze compatable versions. Also, keep in mind that the public domain and shareware Atari offerings are usually _far_ superior to even the classiest klone copyrighted and marketed software. Sure not many people will have them, so you _won't_ be able to trade pirate warez with him/her, or "borrow" expensive programs from work for your own use. But nobody would _ever_ base their purchases on the availability of "free" software, would they? But it sure will be a unique thing of beauty which will surely make it's owners proud, and will make klone owners green with envy. The 520ST did it in '85, and Atari can do it again. It will take the klones another 7 years to catch up!!!! _________________________ /hunderbird 'cause where's the fun in life if you're the same as everyone else?!?!?!!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 10 Sat Jul 11, 1992 J.DERNAR at 22:46 EDT Sheldon..You are exactly right about the true speed of the PC machines. We just got a 486-33 machine to use in our office. AutoCad, WP, Quattro, Dos5.0, and a whole bunch of other junk. I HATE the thing. Everything is more complex than it thould. And overpriced? Let me tell you that big companies think nothing of dropping down big bucks for junk software that no one really has time to learn to use. My rule is that any program that has a manual more than 3/4 of an inch thick should not be purchased. If it is less than 1/4 inch and you can make it run without reading the book....buy it. Setting up DOS and all of it's quirks is misery. The 486-33 is in reality slower than my 520-8 ST. Honestly. People get hung up on speed numbers and boy are they mis-leading. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 11 Sat Jul 11, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:41 EDT We recently picked up a new 486-33 localbus machine. The disk is now as fast as the ST, and the video is as fast as a Crazydots board...32bit on both. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 12 Sun Jul 12, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:27 EDT C.HERBORTH - "Blechy" indeed!!! If people are going to leave Atari, they may as well get a *GOOD* computer to replace it. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 13 Sun Jul 12, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 04:25 EDT So Jim, how much did that 486-33 local bus system that is now as fast as an ST cost? As much as an ST with a good hard drive and a CrazyDots board? Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 14 Sun Jul 12, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 10:00 EDT Jeff, I hope it ain't gonna be like the last 'NO COMMENT' conference with an Atari official. Hopefully we will learn something this time. :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 15 Sun Jul 12, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 11:34 EDT Wayne, I hope so too. This conference will be taking place immediately before the big Atari Dusseldorf Show, so whatever Atari will be showing there will be fair game in the conference. It's kinda like getting to see the show before everybody else...but without the airfare. :-) - Jeff Williams ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 16 Sun Jul 12, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 18:19 EDT I have a question that hopefully somebody at Atari can answer now... Will the Falcon still support DMA sound in addition to this new rumoured DSP? Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 18 Mon Jul 13, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 00:24 EDT Hmmmm, I have a 486-33 EISA system with Windows 3.1 that FLIES!! and an awsome keyboard... MULTI-TASKING NO memory limits in Windows.. 20 times more software ... GREAT Word Processing packages (AMI PRO) (WinWord 2.0) Excel 4.0 (a spreasheet that BLOWS away anything on the ATARI AWAY.. GEE a user base of 30,000,000 ... Yes DOS sucks!! that will change SOON ... I love my Mega4 ... I love its simplicity... BUT there is just NNOOOOO support for the system... from ATARI, from any major software chain, from MOST local Atari Dealers!!! HEY it does not do anyone any good to sit around and tell ourselves how great we have it.. There IS a lot of work to get done from ATARI and QUICKLY!!! Barely Hopeing... Jerry Richter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 20 Mon Jul 13, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:14 EDT C.HERBORTH - Sheesh! If the Falcon's going to be "released" in September '92, I would certainly *hope* there's plenty of info about it by October 1st. Did you mean to say "released" or did you mean "introduced"? All that's been said by Atari people (Leonard Tramiel and Bob Brodie, at least) is that the Falcon 030 should be released by late Fall ("late Fall" should be around November sometime, maybe late October at the earliest). J.ALLEN27 - re: localbus --- It's certainly about time they learned how to do things right. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 21 Mon Jul 13, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 03:05 EDT I always add two financial quarters to release dates. If things happen sooner it's a bonus. My MSTE was a pleasant surprise. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 22 Mon Jul 13, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 07:18 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: FIFTHCRUSADE Your right dos does suck, but note my Handle King Sparta I was using Sparta DOS (MS DOS for the Atari(Sort of)) so long on the old 8-bit I kind of liked it. That was untill I got my mouse and ST. ;-) To: S.Johnson10 [Steve] It will prob go to germany and about 5 years from now be shiped to the USA for Speedy useage. What I do not understand is why it is 30mhz why not 50mhz. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 23 Mon Jul 13, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 09:27 EDT No, we cannot answer your question. We cannot respond to questions on products which have not been publicly announced. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 24 Mon Jul 13, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 11:17 EDT That killer 486-33, 130Meg IDE w/32bit controller, S3 based 32bit video, mini tower, both floppies, keyboard, IO, 4Megs ram, 256K cache, etc etc costs all of $1,595 without a monitor. The best thing Atari could do would be to take this same design, and add an 040 chip to the motherboard. It would then be a PC _and_ a next generation ST _and_ an inexpensive killer Unix box (with an ethernet addon and bigger HDrive). The addition of an LC040 would only ad $500 to the system price. So, for $2,100 would you buy a 33Mhz 486 and a 33Mhz 040, with 130Meg HDrive, 4Megs, 32bit IDE, 32bit S3 video (up to 1280x1024 16 color), mini tower case, lots of expansion room, with the ability to run PC and ST software, and the option to go to Unix too? It's such an obvious opportunity, take full advantage of the economies of scale of the PC world, add in some truly unique value and capabilities, wrap it in a nice big bow, and you'd have a real winner. Something that apeals to both the full PC market (include an 040 delete option) and reaches beyond. Then put the neat DSP system in another 32bit slot and bring all the super possibilities the Falcon holds to the killer platform. Sure, lots of ST software won't run right away, but all the still supported great software will be easily ported, and others who have left the market will jump back in fast with updates, and Darek has proven you can do a respectable job emulating the ST on a 486...it'd be even easier on a 68040 chip. It's alot like having Bush for another 4 years, or Perot. Keep going with a very similar strategy year after year, or, make a serious break with the status quo and take a plunge into really solving Atari's problems with a daring move. Real guts! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 28 Mon Jul 13, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 23:59 EDT Jeff, Thanks, sounds like it may be worth dropping in. Steve, I wonder if they meant 'Late Fall' THIS year or will it be NEXT year. Anyone wanna bet on which it will be. I'll take next year. Also, I wonder if it will be Class B or Class A. I'll take Class A. You know how the FCC is. :-) Yes, I intend to win this bet :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 29 Tue Jul 14, 1992 N.WEINRESS [Norm] at 00:41 EDT Jim, You need to shop better. I've got an ad in front of me that includes everything you mentioned, except 16-bit HD card, but including SVGA monitor; for $1499. With local bus, $1699. This just proves your point. Atari need only design a motherboard with a PC form factor...the rest is easy pickin's. Of course, there is not enough profit in that for them. They want the whole pie, just like Apple. That's how Apple lost their chance to be number one, but that is lost on them. Norm ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 30 Tue Jul 14, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:11 EDT RINGO @ LEXICOR2, No comments about Falcon 030....you are still under NDA Till I tell you different! Just a reminder. :-) BTW for thoses interested AMIGA just anounced their "A3000T" system...it is based on a 33-Mhz 68040 with 32MB RAM 64MB proRAM card ASDG serial Card Sunrise AD1012 Sound card w/ digitizer and full IVP24BIT AV card. This puppy sports a 14,400 baud modem, the audio sample rate is listed at 80,000sps w/ direct to HD sample recording. The system has built in 88MB Syquest removable-media and CD-ROM drive. As far as DTV goes the machine has a full realtime 30 frams per second frame buffer. Builting genlock...ie Video in and video out w/ room for TBC cards and other third party Audio and or Video hardware. This all comes in a tower configuration which is about the same size as most standard PC tower units. No mention of the much feared Toaster...apparently there are several new simular cards which are both faster and less expensive. I mention this new Amiga computer here because I believe that if people are speculating about what the falcon will do, they should have some idea of what ATARIs closest competer is producing and selling. LEXICOR ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 31 Tue Jul 14, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:20 EDT R.GLOVER3 - Yes, the Falcon has still has digital stereo sound, but it's somewhat unclear as to its capabilities. However, it is believed that it has up to 16-bit sound and maybe in multiple channels. The August ST FORMAT says that it has 16-voice, 8-bit digital stereo sound, but I don't think that's correct. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 32 Tue Jul 14, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 09:11 EDT Lee, what Falcon? I don't know anything about them. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 33 Tue Jul 14, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 23:30 EDT Lee @ Lexicor, what does that behemoth Amiga cost? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 34 Wed Jul 15, 1992 C.FLUEGEL at 00:51 EDT ok, ive heard 16 channel 8-bit sound + stereo 16 bit sound and 10 channel 16- bit sound and some other combos -- this makes quite a difference to the Audio engineeres out there, after all 8bit sound is only worth games, and 10 channels of 16bit sound woulds be beyond amazing and worth many thoasands of dollars .... whats up ? (i know, wait for the magazine thats a month late)........ Curt ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 35 Wed Jul 15, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 05:28 EDT Ringo....the Falcon is a bird of prey that feeds on other birds and sometimes Fish? They are illegal to own in the US for the most part. However they can bring very high prices in some forign countries. About the Amiga ...I commented about...it's suggested entry level price is $5.252.00...Like any upgradeable computer platform you can always spend a lot of clammers if you want. Then to you can get some very good deals if you shop...for instance I just purchased a 1.25 GIGabyte internal HD for our Iris which cost only $2K...it normally retails for about 3.5K. Of course the trick is getting a third party unit that is fully compatable. I have found several very powerfull Video tools that will work with the TT, but they are expensive compared to the base cost of the TT so it is hard to convience no Professionals that the TT is a solid choice as a basic animation tool. How ever more and more users interested in doing commerical level computer graphics are giving the TT a try. In one case a new cable TV sattleite company is using the TT. They have started advertising that they will be on the AIR this September. Lets hope Atari gets some credits as was promised. The company is called SFAN. ATARI was very generous through the good offices of Bill Reboch in providing SFAN with ATARI hardware which they could use in getting their Cable company off the ground. LEXICOR ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 36 Wed Jul 15, 1992 J.LEBLANC3 [Jeff] at 18:28 EDT Jim, Geeze, it took them *this* long with a 486/33 to finally approach ST hard disk speed? :> ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 38 Wed Jul 15, 1992 E.JOLLEY at 20:25 EDT Does anyone know when the Falcon issue of Atari Advantage is supposed to come out? Has anyone got their's yet? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 39 Wed Jul 15, 1992 W.MALONE4 at 21:08 EDT Lexicor: Commodore has not introduced a new Amiga. You must have caught a glimpse of the August issue of AmigaWorld. AmigaWorld took an A3000T and blew a wad of money on upgrading it. All in all they spent 20k. Personally I disagree with many of their product choices. I mean they spent about 7 grand stuffing the thing with 112Meg of memory alone - yet they stuck with the stock 14" monitor. I suspect they were restricted to whatever products they had on hand for review - and NEC doesn't ship 5FGs to AmigaWorld for review. Gee. You Atari guys are every bit as anxious about new machines as Amiga users. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 40 Thu Jul 16, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:15 EDT No Norm, I shop fine. It's not enough to have a local bus motherboard, you need localbus cards plugged in too ;-) The Royal deal is $1895 with the monitor, 32bit IDE, 32bit S3 based video (much faster than plain VGA even 32bit plain VGA), etc, etc. The Falcon has the potential with some SW and a simple genlock device of being a Toaster Jr for alot less than a comparable Amiga setup would cost. Also, a 33Mhz 040 of immense speed can be slapped inside real easy ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 41 Thu Jul 16, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 00:58 EDT Steve, Yes, I meant Introducted when I said Released, not Released-for-General- Consumer-Use... After installing myself a '486/33 Micro Channel at work (8M, 200M hard drive) in "only" 10.5 hours, I will never, EVER buy a klone. No way hose. 30,000,000 users in the userbase, they must all be STUPID to put up with that sort of crap. At least Widoze 3.1 now runs as fast as GEM on my "toy" 8Mhz ST... DOS is still running at 4Mhz speeds... -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 42 Thu Jul 16, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:24 EDT LEXICOR - There's nothing new about the A3000T. The basic A3000T has been out for about a year now. According to some Amiga folks, the system you described is just an upgraded system w/ some third party cards that allows the 'new' features. Here are some of the latest rumors I've heard about the Falcon 030: 1) There may be models w/ different speeds (i.e. the 16MHz 030 would be the bottom w/ 20-25MHz, 32-33MHz, 40MHz, and/or up to 50MHz models also available). 2) They are supposed to go into production by Summer's end, giving Atari about 2-3 months to stock up on them. Additionally, Atari's production schedule is geared towards making the Falcon 030's, Jaguars and Lynxes. 3) They will be shown (demoed, announced, and/or introduced) at the AtariMesse in Germany in August as well as at the Glendale show. The Jaguar may also be shown at one or both of these shows. 4) The first machines should be shipping in Europe by mid-late October w/ shipping in North America by early-mid November. 5) MultiTOS almost definitely won't be ready before the release of the Falcon 030. 6) The desktop 030- & 040-based Falcons probably won't be available until at least late (3rd or 4th quarter) 1993, so the TT030 will still be produced through most of '93. One issue I've heard raised about the Falcon 030 is that SCSI-2 be too expensive to implement for the rumored price range. Is there anything to this? A few other interesting bits of info are: 1) The Falcon shown at CeBIT in March was using a PLI optical drive (this may be fairly common knowledge, actually). 2) Amiga owners on some of the services, including Usenet/Internet are talking quite a lot about the Falcon and are *very* impressed/jealous about its rumored specs. 3) Apparently, Atari Corp. and NeXT, Inc. are *still* discussing porting the NeXTStep OS and possibly other projects/'alliances.' ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 43 Thu Jul 16, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 01:40 EDT JS, I have read the rumors too and because we are Developers we (I) just can't comment about the Falcon. I don't mean to sound ru but thats what we agreed to abide by, My observations about the AMIGA A300T were base on reading about it and now trying one. From the point of view of off the shelf, with software and costing about the same as "other" computer graphics work- stations, I feel it is a very impressive package. Take that ever it sounds. Untill the falcon is in release, third party hardware is available and there is software to run on it, there is no real way to make any imtellegent comparison. I have very serious doubts that anyone who could afford the AMIGA what ever the configuration, would have any second thoughts about picking a system which has yet to be officially anounced let alone matured into a base system. As I said we will all have to wait and see. bear in mind that it takes a lot to get some one who has invested many thousands in hardwaew and software to switch from one computer to another. Lee ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 44 Thu Jul 16, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 10:51 EDT Steve, As I read through your post, I can't help but be amazed at how rumors can grow, and be spread. I look forward to the point in time when we'll be able to tell EVERYTHING about this wonderful new product!! That will finally end all of the speculation, and we can talk about the machine endlessly then!! :) :) What I'm trying to get across is some of your rumors in your post are worse than baseless! No flames intended, honestly. I'm pleased to see such excitement about our new product. Please just be careful not to build it up so much that you'll be disappointed that it doesn't meet your rumors!!!! Jim, you really gonna put a fast 040 in a Falcon "real easy"??? That's great news!!! This is just the kind of positive development information that I love to hear!! Any idea on cost?? regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 45 Thu Jul 16, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 19:42 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: E.Jolley Atari does not know when the Atari Advantage will be out, Maybe 6 months after the computer is out, Maybe. :) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 46 Thu Jul 16, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 22:03 EDT Bob Brodie: How about you are going to be able to plug the Falcon directly into an Indigo? is that good developer news? Actually thats an unfair question given that we are doing this same thing with my trysty old mega-2 :-) I will be very interested in watching the users at this falls ATARI show when we can show this sort of compatability off. Lee ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 47 Thu Jul 16, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 22:58 EDT Bob, Please take this post the way it's intended and not as a 'slam' against Atari. I've put off buying any further upgrades to my system (TOS 2.06, T-25, etc.) until I see what the Falcon was like. Why invest more money in my old system when the Falcon might not cost me much more (based on rumors )? Here's the problem that _I_ see....dealers!!! Right now I would have to drive almost 500 miles just to see a Falcon in action. If I bought it and anything went wrong, it's 500 miles back to that dealer (or days/weeks via UPS). What brought this back to my attention was two calls I got this week. Tuesday a lady down the road called me to tell me her mouse was broke. When she went to her dealer (Henry), she found out he no longer sales/supports the ST. There is NO other ST dealer in town that has a mouse to sell her. I ended up giving her one of my extra 'mice' so she could get her newsletter out. Then just this evening, another ST owner called me to see what I knew about his ST only showing 125k of memory (it's 1-meg). There's NO place in the 9th largest city in the US where he can take it to get it fixed. Neither of these two will probably buy a Falcon - in fact the second one is going to junk out his system and buy a clone (this guy was the vice-president of our local ST club). IMO, the Falcon can only be successful in the US _IF_ Atari re-establishes a viable dealer base. What is being done to resurect the dealer base? (By viable dealers, I don't mean like Symphony - a local music store that has two dusty ST's in stock, 4 year old software and knows less about the ST than my son does.) I _want_ to buy a Falcon, but I don't want to be forced to have to order it via mail order or drive 500 miles to see one. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Just _my_ opinion/questions with no hidden agendas involved. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 48 Thu Jul 16, 1992 J.DERNAR at 23:31 EDT LLoyd: I just bought a mail order 386-33 1mb/50mb hd/ dual floppy machine basically mail order from a company in PA. Our company is in Ohio, and a big company we are. No one seemed to be concerned that the "assembler" was about 500 miles away. We got a 2 yr. TRW service contract, and hope we never have to find out just what it covers. We buy approx 50 systems a year. They don't care if the dealer is far away, "is it good stuff" is the usual question. PS.. I hate clones type systems. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 49 Fri Jul 17, 1992 WALLY.W [Wally @ Yak] at 00:24 EDT Howdy, Jerry, DOS still sucks... For me, I can't see forcing myself to get _used_ to something that sucks so badly just because _everyone_ is doing it. If you're happy, fine, but I use an IBM at work, help friends keep their IBM systems stable in my offtime, and answer questions about them in-between. A couple friends of mine just bought Atari's, and they are already outperforming people who've owned their IBM's for years. That, in itself, speaks for itself. BTW, if I'm not mistaken, they still aren't true multi-taskers. Wally ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 50 Fri Jul 17, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:07 EDT C.FLUEGEL - 10 channels of 16-bit sound isn't all that expensive at all, really. LEXICOR - According to people I've talked to who keep track of what's going on in the Amiga world, Commodore has at least 2 new machines it's working on that also have a DSP and expanded sound capabilities. However, it looks as though Atari will be beating Commodore to the punch if they *DO* get the Falcon 030 out by this autumn. C.HERBORTH - Yeah, a friend of mine here in Atlanta just got hired to head up a multimedia division for a computer company and they've given him a 50MHz 486 w/ every peripheral you can possibly imagine and he's still not sure he likes it more than his ST. I also forgot to mention that the "1040-style" case is actually slightly larger than a real 1040 case (I don't know in what way(s) it is larger, though). Here's another marketing idea for the Falcon 030... How about Atari set up a show w/ COMPUTER CHRONICLES to show off their new stuff in time to air the show the week or the week after the BCS meeting? They could show the Falcon 030 and MultiTOS and *CERTAINLY* be able to take up about 25 minutes doing so. Or maybe someone could suggest a COMPUTER CHRONICLES show that would be about new computers from both Atari and Commodore and Atari could show the Falcon 030/MultiTOS for about 10-15 minutes and Commodore could show the A600 and whatever else for another 10-15 minutes. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 51 Fri Jul 17, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 01:59 EDT SJ, I don't think that doing a "COMPUTER CHRONICALS" Falcon vs AMIGA show is a very good idea. Not yet anyway. There are some very good animation packages and 24Bit cards for the AMIGA. IN six months or a year...aftere the new ATARI systems can mature that idea might be first rate. Bear in mind many users make great assumptions about a systems value based on very breif observations and reviews. If the Falcon is not well along the way it coud do more harm than good. But the idea is sound and you might consider writing to ATARI proper with a brief one page letter outlining your Idea. If you keep it breif and to the point, I am sure it will be read and considered. Don't be offended if you don't get a reply. I can assure you from personal knowledge that if you address such a letter to Bill rehbock or Sam Trameal it will be read. Lexicor ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 52 Fri Jul 17, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 09:19 EDT J.Dernar, There's two main differences here. First, you had a 'choice' whether to buy mail order or locally. I have NO choice - I _have_ to buy mail order. Second, you could get your systems repaired locally if you had to. (Assuming you have some clone dealers in your town - and most towns of any size do.) I can't get my ST fixed locally no matter how much money I'm willing to spend. Most individuals don't have 10-50 systems in their home. If/when their ST goes down, they're SOL until they get it fixed. They can't replace it with one of the spares lying around. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 53 Fri Jul 17, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 18:16 EDT BOB-BRODIE - I'm just passing on some of the rumors I hear that don't sound like utter poppycock for the fun of it. I try not to make it sound too much like these rumors are at all accurate and make sure I label them as rumors. I'm having a hard enough time keeping my own hopes from getting too excessive. LEPULLEY - It's too bad that neither of the two people you mentioned will probably buy a Falcon since, if Atari does the same thing they've always done, they'll only be trying to sell the machine to people who already own Atari's. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 54 Fri Jul 17, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 19:48 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] Thats a good idea about COMPUTER CHRONICLES, But they will not do it, That would be advertising ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 55 Fri Jul 17, 1992 J.DERNAR at 22:26 EDT Lloyd.. The 10-50 machines that I mentioned came from probably 5-10 suppliers. But you are right, we could get them fixed by someone. A group that I worked in had a 24 pin print head replaced in our office on a NEC printer for something like $400. The thing should have been trashed instead. Oh well people like that are keeping the IBM ers in business. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 56 Fri Jul 17, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 23:20 EDT Jim Allen - When you say "a 33mhz 040 can be slapped inside real easy.." do you mean $395 worth of easy, or $1595 worth of easy? Heh heh. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 57 Fri Jul 17, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 23:54 EDT Lloyde, If what you have said in the past about ATARI is true, then you should be able to find a temp use ATARI holding doors open with little trouble? Just a little tweek for you bub :-) besides what is the point of repeating rumors? do you think this is a public service or is it for the fun of it? It appears to me "for what thats worth" that there is so much conclusion jumping around here, and so much hard feelings that general gossiping (?) does little good. as you know WE do have a certin amount of current information about the new Atari venue and I would like to share it with "My Customers" But the plain fact is that this information should come from ATARI. It is their company and their products and their well being that is at issue. I trust that Atari will do their best to meet all their own priorities (?) which can only mean we "users and developers" will benefit in our own time and place. LEXICOR ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 58 Sat Jul 18, 1992 C.FLUEGEL at 00:33 EDT Steve : 10 ch annels of 16bit sound cheap? If this is possible, then a stock Falcon would save a sound engineer about $12,000 too invest in Pro Tools on a Mac ......... Curt ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 59 Sat Jul 18, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 00:44 EDT Lee, >>If what you have said in the past about ATARI is true... >>Just a little tweek for you bub :-) How about some of the things you've said about Atari in the past being true? Just a tweek back atcha bub You're right, _I_ can find a 'temp use ATARI holding doors open with little trouble', but others can't (aren't on the boards, don't have the connection with the ex-Atari dealer, etc.). But that doesn't answer the question. If I buy a Falcon (I know Bob B. shudders at the thought ), I don't want to use some old 8mhz system for 1-8 weeks while I send my system who-knows- where and for how long to get fixed. >>besides what is the point of repeating rumors? What _rumors_ am I repeating? It is no _rumor_ that Phoenix doesn't have a full-line ST dealer (just a music store with a couple old systems). It's no _rumor_ that these two people called me (if you wish, I'll leave you their names and phone numbers in E-Mail so you can verify my story). Or are you saying the Falcon is just a rumor? I simply asked Mr. Brodie a serious question - one about dealers - and gave two examples why _I_ feel for the Falcon to be successful (at least in Phoenix), more full-service dealers are necessary. You see I'm going to surprise you, I believe the Falcon (if current rumors can be trusted) could re-vitalize the ST line in the US. I'm impressed enough with the _rumors_ of the Falcon to hold off buying a different system and maybe _buy_ one (it wasn't long ago when I swore I'd never buy another Atari system). BUT, I could care less how good the Falcon does in Europe, I'm concerned with how well it does in the USA. And for it to do well here, we need dealers!! (IMO) Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Speaking for himself ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 60 Sat Jul 18, 1992 G.NORTON [G.NORTON] at 02:24 EDT Jim, I still would like to see Atari bring out a 16-25Mhz 030 machine at a low price for people with 520's to upgrade to and for beginners that want to spend as little as possible. For myself I would like an 040 33Mhz (do they have 50's out yet?), Tower case (forget about the mini's), 24 bit colour on screen up to 1024*768, at least 8MB (expandible using SIMMS (no propietary RAM boards) to 128MB) at 240MB Quantum HD or comparible SCSI-2 HD, and...and... And yes I would be willing to put out some $$$ to get one. By the way does anyone want to buy my Mega STe 4/105 for say (CAN) $3000 ...PLEEEASSSE! :) Graham @ Quay Computers ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 61 Sat Jul 18, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 03:10 EDT Actually, Atari could have just coughed up an 030 based replacement motherboard for the 520/1040STF computers, and one for the MegaST also. I think it would have sold well, and based on the single chip STE it could have been profitable. But going with the little falcon is the next best thing. Jim, EC040...$395, LC040...$595, and 040...$1295, that's about how easy, presuming the first two would only use some cache memory, while the later would use say 4Megs of nastily swift 32bit ram. Let's all hope. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 62 Sat Jul 18, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:31 EDT J.ALLEN27: Atari-ST RoundTable Category 18, Topic 20 Message 61 Sat Jul 18, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 03:10 EDT > Jim, EC040...$395, LC040...$595, and 040...$1295, that's about how easy, > presuming the first two would only use some cache memory, while the later > would use say 4Megs of nastily swift 32bit ram. Can we all conclude from your message that the 'stock' Falcon _doesn't_ already come with 'nastily swift 32bit ram'???? ;-) Actually, on the subject of RAM... one thing that bothers me about the TT is all of the confusion surrounding 'ST RAM' and 'TT RAM'. If I were to be writing a program on the TT that had 4 megs of ST RAM, and 8 Megs of TT RAM, would I have to do anything special in order for my program to recognise that there were 12 megs of _contiguous_ memory, or would I be restricted to running certain things in certain RAM??? I hope this is not true, because speaking as an assembly language programmer, one of the _worst_ 'features' of the Klones is their truly amazing and redoubtable 'Expanded / Extended / Enhanced / Estranged / Expurgated Memory System' (or whatever they decide to name it this week)... it would be a shame if the Falcon imposed ridiculous restrictions on the programmer as far as RAM were concerned. __________________________ \hunderbird "Just say NO to Klones!" ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 63 Sat Jul 18, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 13:04 EDT LLOYD -- I know exactly what you are saying. John and I have played the role of "spare parts" house on several occasions. We've had friends in the 60 mile radius call and ask for help (why do these things always happen on a weekend???). We've loaned out monitors, mice, printers and cabels many times. Folks can't just get off work at the drop of a hat to make the 250 mile round trip to our "local" dealer and they have computer projects they just _have_ to do. Expanding and _educating_ the dealer base is a _must_ if Atari is going to survive. Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 64 Sat Jul 18, 1992 J.LEBLANC3 [Jeff] at 16:30 EDT Lloyd, Supposedly, The GE service network is supposed to be handling repairs on the Atari line of computers. I haven't heard much about this lately, is this still true? Also, I don't know if this is just true for the higher end machines (such at the TT, and MSTE), but seems like you could buy an Atari mailorder, and if you need service, take it to a GE Service center for repair (*IF* you don't have to drive 500 miles to get to one of those :-) ) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 65 Sat Jul 18, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 19:09 EDT Thunderbird, There _aren't_ 12 megs of contiguous RAM. The ST RAM and the TT RAM are in different places. There's no need to do anything special for your program to use TT RAM though. Just set the "Use TT RAM" flag. I don't see the non-contiguous nature of the 2 RAM types as a problem. Programmers won't usually allocate > 2 Megs of RAM at once. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 66 Sat Jul 18, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 19:30 EDT D.D., That's why I asked Bob Brodie about new dealers (hmmm...he still hasn't answered me - and I know he's been on here 2-3 times since I left my post). Even though I'm an individual, my computer is as important to me as one owned by a billion dollar corporation. Just like most companies, I can't wait 1-9 weeks to get my system fixed when it goes down. Jeff, What did Lee just get upset about? Rumors!! At the current time, the GE service network is still a _rumor_. Also, who knows what the GE Service deal will include _if the rumor_ comes true. Maybe just warranty work, maybe taking the system to the local service center and they then send it to one or two service centers in the US that work on Ataris (which will still take time). Are the service centers going to handle parts like a 1-3 year old mouse? Until the GE service network becomes a 'done deal', we can't count on it. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 67 Sat Jul 18, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 20:24 EDT Tbird, there is no computer that currently uses the kind of "nastily fast" 32bit ram setup I was alluding to. I've developed something special and unique in my lab, and if I go to make an 040 product it'll use this ram design...after all the point behind an 040 design is maximum speed, cost is a secondary matter. The 040 is a hot rod 030, it's point for existing is to up the anty in the speed game. My design will feed 16 bytes into an 040-33Mhz in 150ns...30 times faster than an 8Mhz STs rate. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 68 Sat Jul 18, 1992 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 21:37 EDT Swampy, I couldn't agree more. Columbus used to have 3 or 4 dealers and now we are down to one, well, actually one half, if that. The dealer base must be a top priority. BTW, I've been wondering for some time about the system you are using. You seem to be everywhere, full of knowledge about a plethora of topics. What all are you using down there? Regards, peter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 69 Sat Jul 18, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 22:27 EDT Wally, In Windows 3.1 I never have to quit out a program to run another, I generally have 4 to 5 programs running at any one time.. its awsome to work this way... can't wait to see how nice MultiTos will make my ST life... True Multitasking?... Don't like DOS and memory management! but who cares once you've converted to all Windows programs!! File Manager is still not as nice as NeoDesk... If the Falcon has speed, a good multitasking OS, and true color and a killer Word Processor.. well folks just might go for it! but still try a well set up 486 Windows based PC... you will appreciate the experience... My opion on dealers... they are a dying breed for the future.. with platform cost DROPPING like a rock clone dealers and Atari dealers will find it RUFF to stay around.. Better to have dealers that represent segments of the business.. like DTP.. Music.. CAD or any combination of the above... these dealer MUST carry the state-of-art software to go with these platforms.. Most of the Atari dealer didn't carry the proper software to show off their systems.. SOFTWARE SELLS COMPUTERS and that will always be true!. I think.. with the FALCON, because of its price, should be sold in COSTCO...along with the cheaper 386 and 486 clones.. have a running demo that BLOWS the hell out of your basic 640X480X256COLOR clone ... WOW stereo hi-fi sound, true color... with a sign that says IBM COMPATABLE hanging right below.. hmmmmm they might sell a million that way... hmmm lots of folks would want to write software then!!!... naaaa makes to much sense. Jerry\\ ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 70 Sat Jul 18, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 23:35 EDT Steve, The only problem I see with Computer Chronicles is that they seems to have this thing about Atari. They don't tell you anything about Atari. They would probably only give them 2 - 3 minutes. The last one I watched was about the NAMM show (I think). According to all I heard, the Atari was the only one there in force but, what did they do, they spent a few minutes on the show and then went inside to their studio to show off Mac and Amigas. Computer Chronicles SUCKS!!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 71 Sun Jul 19, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:05 EDT M.FARMER2 - Sorry, I just have some lingering fond memories from years ago when CC did a whole show on the Atari ST. I especially liked Jim Kent showing the Cyber stuff. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 72 Sun Jul 19, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 01:54 EDT Jim, >I've developed something special and unique in my lab,... Sounds like a line from Dr. Frankenstein... ;^) =-=-=-=-=-=-= >LLOYD -- > >I know exactly what you are saying. John and I have played the role >of "spare parts" house on several occasions. We've had friends in the >60 mile radius call and ask for help (why do these things always >happen on a weekend???). We've loaned out monitors, mice, printers >and cabels many times. Folks can't just get off work at the drop of a >hat to make the 250 mile round trip to our "local" dealer and they >have computer projects they just _have_ to do. Lloyd had a similar comment, and both DD's and Lloyd's examples bother me. It's a very considerate and thoughtful gesture which Lloyd and DD have done, lending out equipment to other ST users in need, but if the "ST needy" :^) don't have the time to get replacement items because they don't have a local dealer, they they shouldn't have bought a computer without local dealer support. Maybe it's the mood I'm in today. :^) No flame intended in the discussion below; I'm just thinking out loud. I think what bothers me is the thought of the type of consumer that would buy any computer (we won't single out Atari :^) without a local dealer and expect to get the same kind of service that they would get if they =did= have a local dealer. I mean, if you have only one mouse, and it goes bad, you order another one from the manufacturer, distributor, or dealer. You must expect to wait days or weeks for the item to arrive in the mail because you can't get it locally. You must live with that. It's like buying anything else. For example, the speaker stops working on your television set. Your television set just happens to be an out-dated model that's no longer manufactured. The local repair shops don't have the required replacement item in stock because they don't regularly stock parts such as that; they always special order stuff from the manufacturer, and even it may not have the replacement item. If you buy a product mail order, you must expect to get "mail order" service. If you buy a product mail order, you're on your own for a few days until you can order a replacement item and get it mailed to you. So, you don't have any Atari dealers local to you. So what? You buy the machine via mail order and take your chances, or you buy a cheap clone or a Mac where there's local support. No one's forcing you to buy an Atari. If you buy the clone or Mac, you win because you get local support that you need. Atari loses a sale; that's their fault. If you buy the ST mail order (because you don't have the local dealer) and your mouse goes bad, you wait the couple of days until you get a new one. If your business suffers or whatever because you can't use your computer, I believe that it's an error on your part (as a business owner) because you should have bought locally, where the needed support is, instead of mail order where you might have to wait a couple of days. >Expanding and _educating_ the dealer base is a _must_ if Atari is >going to survive. Yes, this is evident. But I think I would be more worried about those people who are dependant on their computers, but can't get them fixed. Let Atari deal with its problem because it's the only one who can. The tone of Lloyd's and DD's anecdotes seem to imply (even if they didn't intend to) that we as Atari owners must have this strong dedication to Atari computers. It kinda reminds me of stereotypical high school and rooting for the team. Or being a presidential campaign supporter. But these things we have are only computers. Sure, there's a lot of investment involved, not only financial, but also time- wise with owning a computer. If you really need the local support, you should choose from the current computer platforms that are available locally. If there's no local ST dealer (or good one), don't buy an ST. If you like the ST much better than the other computer offerings, and you don't have a good local ST dealer, then buy from mail order and take your chances. There are risks you must take, and buying a computer is one of them. Buying the wrong computer because you can't get local support for it and then blaming the manufacturer because there aren't enough dealers is wrong. (I think I may have flipped my lid. Again. :^) This message may not be reprinted without my permission.) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 73 Sun Jul 19, 1992 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 08:57 EDT Peter Bullock, Who is the one dealer left in Columbus (I presume you mean Columbus, Ohio) and where is he located? I'm from Dayton (Ohio) and sometimes I go shopping in Columbus. We're down to one dealer, too, (Rising Star) and he's primarily a mail order business. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 74 Sun Jul 19, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:48 EDT FIFTHCRUSADE: I don't think I made myself clear about the contiguous RAM idea... allow me to digress a bit. Off and on for the past few years I have been dabbling in writing a way cool adventure/action game for the ST line of computers. All it needs is a 'save game' feature and some beta testing to be finished, but I kind of lost steam for the summer because I couldn't get anyone interested in marketing a game (nobody even wanted a look at it). However, in writing this game, I included a large amount of bitmapped graphics which take up better than 1/2 meg of RAM when uncompressed. Needless to say, it requires a 1 meg ST to run. As I was writing the game, so peecee users I know said "wow, I wish you would convert this to the PC!!!" to which I explained that it would be too much work because of the memory model included in all Intel CPU's (See the excellent article in the latest ST-REPORT about this very thing.). All the 68000 has to do in the ST is to know the address where a graphic bitmap lies, and where the screen RAM lies, and presto it can move the image to the screen. Put simply the 68000 code would look like this: LOOP MOVE_A_WORD FROM_ADDRESS TO_ADDRESS DECREMENT_COUNTER BRANCH_IF_NOT_DONE_TO LOOP This (simplified) scheme relies on all RAM residing within the address space allocated to the 68000, with no technical jiggery-pokery involved to get it to read correctly. Now, how would this code look on a theoretical machine without contiguous RAM??? LOOP SET_TO_RAM_BANK_#1 MOVE_A_WORD FROM_ADDRESS TO_HOLDER SET_TO_RAM_BANK_#2 MOVE_A_WORD FROM_HOLDER TO_ADDRESS DECREMENT_COUNTER BRANCH_IF_NOT_DONE_TO LOOP As you can see, the size of the code has doubled, and the complexity (chance of making a mistake) has also doubled. But more importantly, the SPEED of the code has been havled... This is the reason why klones really stink at playing games. So, If I were to write a game on a TT with 2 megs of TT RAM and 2 Megs of ST RAM, would I have to rewrite all of my lightning fast screen blitting routines to take the different RAM banks into account, or would I be forced to make it all fit into the ST RAM? Or, does ST RAM and TT RAM reside in a contiguous block of RAM, and the difference is that the video hardware and dma hardware just can't access the higher (TT) ram addresses????? That is my question. J.ALLEN27: 16 bytes in 150ns?!?!?!??!?! Egad! __________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 75 Sun Jul 19, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 09:55 EDT Ed, >>If the "ST needy" don't have the time to get replacement items because >>they don'thave a local dealer, they shouldn't have bought a computer >>without local dealer support. Ah...but Ed, they didn't! At one time Phoenix had SIX full-service ST dealers. Then it went down to two full-service and two 'so-so' ST dealers. Then it went down to ONE full-service dealer. And for the last year it's been down to one music store with a couple of dusty ST's - who's owner knows NOTHING about the ST. These people bought their system when they did have local dealer support. That's why so many ST's are for sale here (CHEAP!). Because these people want to own a system that's supported locally. They don't want to have to stock extra mice, monitors, systems, etc. just 'in case' their system goes down. They bought from a dealer who carried these things thinking they'd be able to get any future support from that dealer. To get most of these people to even think about buying a Falcon (back on topic ), Atari is going to _have_ to re-establish a viable dealer network. Yes, there are a few 'hobbyists' who will order a Falcon via mail order, but the majority of the people will want local service/sales. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 76 Sun Jul 19, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 11:36 EDT Lloyd. I don't think Lee was upset or at least I did not see any indication that he was upset. I think that what he was pointing out is that here in the Falcon area. What we currently have is Rumours about the Falcon and that it is best to wait and See before jumping into conclusions. What I am doing is waiting for the machines to come out. If they look good and perform great I will get one if they do not I will not get one, it is that simple. Jim. It would be nice to see that type of design. Maybe you should start building your own computers. Something that can "STEP" all over the "NEXT" systems! Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 77 Sun Jul 19, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 11:59 EDT Lloyd. I agree. I done my ATARI sales before and selling ATARIs is not that easy. First you get a person that wants a computer, his or her friends all say bet an IBM compatible, I say get an ATARI I take them to my place and show them the TT and the programs I have, later I tell them come over to the ATARI delear they will show you even more products. So after driving for miles and miles and miles we get to the store but on the way to the store the question comes up from the person that wants to see the system, "Why are we driving all this distance? Can't we go to a store much closer to us?" and that hurts the sale. What makes it worst is that on the way to the ATARI dealer you drive by many other computer stores that sell IBM and MAC and Amigas. Maybe next time I will have them put on a blindfold. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 78 Sun Jul 19, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN at 12:26 EDT Hi Folks, anyone hear what type of "backward" compatibility is in the works with the Falcon?? -Chuck- p.s. if it is in the ballpark with vga/svga displays won't that open up a whole new realm of possibilities for the pc-emulators? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 79 Sun Jul 19, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 12:35 EDT Ed- For the most part I agree but I think they will point out that when the computers were purchased they _were_ purchased from local dealers. The local dealers have since gone the route of most Atari 'local' dealers belly up- or dropped the line. -Tom McComb {12:20 pm} Sunday, July 19, 1992 =>Do not reprint in ST Report<= ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 80 Sun Jul 19, 1992 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 15:04 EDT Dave Engel, The two types of RAM in a TT are not contiguous; in my TT030/8, the ST RAM ends at $400000, and the TT RAM starts at $1000000. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech Sunday, July 19, 1992 9:16 am ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 81 Sun Jul 19, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 15:10 EDT Lloyd - Exactly the point I was planning on making. When I bought my first 520, I bought it locally from a very large local electronics store that offered full service and great support for the ST. These people were really gung-ho about the ST. They were the first thing you saw when you walked into the computer department, and the employees were always playing with them, and showing them off to potential customers. This was around 1986 I guess. Today, there are a couple of old dirty ST's shoved in a corner, and any software they have on the shelf for the ST is marked 80% off (and it's all old, useless stuff). They stopped getting anything new from Atari when, according to an employee I talked to, Atari wanted them to order $25,000 worth of equipment at a time. I now have a MegaSTe, bought used here on GEnie. I expect no local support for it, because there is none. I had never even seen a STe first hand before I opened the MegaSTe box. Now with the Falcon coming out, I will have to rely on magazines and users here to help me make my decision. And it will be a _big_ decision. If I could walk into a computer store and actually _see_ a Falcon, hands-on, I have very little doubt that I would grab one up. I'm rambling a bit, so I'll end it here in summary. If you're blessed with a local dealer, I would urge you to support that dealer by purchasing from him. If you, like I, must do your Atari shopping via mail-order, accept the risks of long-distance support and thank the mail-order company for supporting Atari at all. Ringo - I know what you mean about the Falcon rumors. If they all turned out to be true, we'd all probably be so happy we would pee on ourselves. This is _very_ doubtful (and would be messy). Sometimes though, I wish that if Atari can't tell us what rumors are true, they could at least tell us which are false. I find myself having to make sure I don't get over-hyped about this machine as to the point that I'm disappointed when it does come out. (This message may be reprinted, transmitted, folded, spindled or mutilated, without permission from anyone) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 82 Sun Jul 19, 1992 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 16:38 EDT Mike squire, The only dealer left is Computer Success. Don't waste the drive. I noticed they even took down the Atari sign in the window. Last time in the store, they had devoted more space to C-64 used parts than the Atari line and had no equipment on display. They started out with Atari and did well for awhile, but..... They do have a nice line of PC's and amigas. I thought they had better taste than that. I bought all my equipment and software there, so it's mail order now! I guess the point is, for the topic cops, that no non-atari user in Columbus is going to buy a Falcon because they either won't know about it, or won't be able to see one locally. That can be a very limiting factor. regards, Peter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 83 Sun Jul 19, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 19:13 EDT PETER -- > BTW, I've been wondering for some time about the system you are using... Peter, John and I both have Mega-4 STE's. He does typeset (Using PageStream and HPIIIP printer) for local print shops. I have an advertising specialty distributorship and use mine with Spectre/GCR to do artwork for tee shirts, caps, coffee cups and other advertising produts. The computer is also a must in getting the purchase orders and invoices out the door. We also have my old 1040 ST (no upgrades) hooked up to a Navarone scanner that we both use as needed. I also have my old 130XE hooked up to a Roland synthesizer over in the corner for messin' around on :-) I've given away about 4 8 bit machines that were still running fine. Needless to say, I've been 'round Atari since the 800 days and GEnie since 1985. I'm "around" a number of RTs and BB's trying to stay current with Atari happenings. Call it a form of entertainment. Not much to do in the swamps after they roll the sidewalks up at 6:00 at night. Plethora? Now there's a word I haven't used in ages! ED K -- Buy your computers locally? Well, I'd _love_ to have a MAC II ci, or si, but my closest MAC dealer is 100+ miles away. Even to buy a clone from SAMS or COSTCO it's 100+ miles one way. To get around our problem of being in the boonies and owning an Atari (or any other computer for that matter) we have a back-up system. Right now we have 2 spare mono moniters and 1 color monitor that we've used _many_ times as back-ups. (John Morrison, our dealer in Orlando, can tell you that John and I have had a monitor in for repairs about every six weeks and right now he has a spare Megafile 30 with bad bushings.) Did you know that John _used_ to be an Atari dealer? Suffice it to say, when he had his dealership, Atari wasn't shipping _anything_. Hard to sell what you don't have. Anyway, we feel the need to support those folks who bought systems from him. Not that we have to, but because we want to. In these "dog- days" of Atari the user base is where many folks have to turn for help. I'm willing because I still think the Atari computer is the best on the market for folks who want to _use_ a computer and not _learn_ computing. Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 84 Sun Jul 19, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 19:32 EDT Thunderbird, As Charles said, there are two types of RAM in the TT at two different locations. The non-contiguous nature of this system causes difficulty only in the fact that a block of memory used by a program cannot start in ST RAM and end in TT RAM. Each allocated block of memory must be small enough to fit completely in the available amount of the particular type of RAM (ST or TT) in the computer. This isn't much of a difficulty because when you allocate RAM, GEMDOS takes this into account and either gives you a valid block of RAM, or returns a failure indication. Furthermore, GEMDOS now includes a call to allocate RAM from the particular RAM type you desire. The limitations of TT RAM are (amoung others) that you can't display video or play DMA sound directly from it. All screen buffers and sound buffers that are to be accessed by the video and audio hardware must be in ST RAM only. For your situation, I believe these are the ONLY limitations you need to worry about. Now to your specific questions/problems. You should know that there IS NO BANK-SWITCHING involved in accessing any part of the TT's RAM. Your (top) loop to copy data from one buffer to another will work unmodified no matter where the buffers are located. >So, If I were to write a game on a TT with 2 megs of TT RAM and 2 >Megs of ST RAM, would I have to rewrite all of my lightning fast >screen blitting routines to take the different RAM banks into >account, or would I be forced to make it all fit into the ST RAM? No, you shouldn't have to even think about it. Unless you're actually displaying the screen from a location, you don't care which bank of RAM it is in. (Except you'd rather have it in TT RAM because the TT RAM is so much faster.) >Or, does the ST RAM and TT RAM reside in a contiguous block of RAM... No, see above. Both types of RAM _DO_ reside in the 68030's 4 gigabyte range of linearly addressable RAM however. They're just non-contiguous in the fact that the byte below the base address of the TT RAM doesn't reside in ST RAM. (It's a bus error, it doesn't exist.) >and the difference is that the video hardware and the dma hardware >just can't access the higher (TT) ram addresses????? Correct. And the TT RAM is accessed faster. I hope I answered your question adequately. I think you were thinking that if the memory weren't contiguous, that would be a problem. The answer is that it isn't contiguous, and it's not a problem. I have 2 suggestions for you about your game: If your loops actually look like that top one, I'd suggest unrolling them for greater speed. (If you need more information on this, E-Mail me.) If you want to market your game, you'll probably have to make some overseas calls. I bet someone in the ST RT, or on the Internet would be able to tell you who to call (I have no idea). That's all. (Sorry about the long post) Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 85 Sun Jul 19, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 21:59 EDT ThunderBird.swampy etc.. If you are interested in US marketing...UK and France give us a call...we can discuss it.....while Games is not what we do in the main we do have a well orginized distribution system and given the market we might give it a try? Swampy....I have had some wounderfull mental images of you out in the muck and the mire of the swamps. I love the Idea of the mix of High tech and raw wild frontiers....sits well on the edge of the mind. I read some comments her responding to Lioyeds comments and mine about rumors and dealers et..al...For the record I was not and am not mad at Lloyd ..If I was I would say so up front.. thats the way I generally am....I am very tired of hearing endles dooms day stuff...and failed attacks on atari...Who cares what they do internally or what they don't do? It should be obvious by now that ATARI is not doing well and has not been doing well for some time. The reason may be interesting but in the so what department. The fact is that so far as I can tell Those at Atari are not now nor have they inthe past shared such problems with us outsiders. They will sink or swim on their own, little that is said here is likely to make any impact on ATARI. As a practical matter each of us has to make or owne decisions about such things as convience vs use for just about everything..including computers. If you have that special relationship with your computer then being a fan .. back in a few. LEXICOR ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 86 Sun Jul 19, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN at 22:13 EDT A thought on the dealer thing. I know it won't help Atari's imagine as a games machine, but it might be easier to get the Falcon into stores alone the lines of "Toys R Us", "Sears" and "Montgomery Wards" rather than try to resurrect a whole new dealer base. These stores at least familiar with Atari through Lynx and there should be some type of previous contact built up with their buyers. Mass exposure is what Atari needs know and department stores as I see it are the quickest way to get it! -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 87 Mon Jul 20, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:42 EDT R.WATSON15 - Yes, CC *IS* pretty lame and Stewart Chiefet is a bit flakey. However, a *LOT* of people into computers seem to watch it and if having Atari on it would increase visibility, then I'm all for it. Atari certainly isn't doing a darn thing to increase visibilty. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 88 Mon Jul 20, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 22:04 EDT Lee, >>...For the record I was not and am not mad at Lloyd >>...I am very tired of hearing endless dooms day stuff...and failed >>attacks on atari...Who cares what they do internally or what they >>don't do? I'm glad that you're not mad at me...we can disagree without getting mad at each other. But again, you confused me. I don't believe there were anything in my post(s) that was preaching "endless doomsday stuff". Nor was there anything in my posts concerning Atari's internal decisions. I simply asked Bob B. (and still haven't received an answer) what Atari was going to do about the dealer situation. No slams, no doomsday, no hidden agenda...just an Atari and Genie user asking a serious question of the Director of Communication. I think you can see by some of the other responses on here that some others agree with me, without a resurection of the dealer network - of some sort, even if it's putting the Falcon into mass markets - there's serious question as to how successful the Falcon will be in the US. I'm not questioning the _rumored_ Falcon, what it will or will not include, nor it's price range - I think that if the rumors are even 1/2-3/4ths true, the Falcon has a good chance at success...IF there's a dealer network. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Just speaking for myself ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 89 Mon Jul 20, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN at 23:06 EDT Greetings All, Since it's almost been a year to the day that I smugly left the Atari World for DOS it's fitting I write this letter. I return from the dark side battered, bruised, and broke. It's not that I couldn't handle the PC's operation. I learned to write my own config.sys and autoexect.bat files, I learned the difference between expanded and extended memory (when is a 1 meg of RAM not a meg of RAM ), and I even had DR. DOS' graphic interface Viewmax (which is stripped down GEM anyway) doing a reasonable imitation of my ST. The problem was I always needed one more thing, be it a soundcard or an extra meg of RAM. The last straw came when I found myself walking out of a tradeshow with a new motherboard to replace the one in my eight month old computer so I could run Wing Commander II "smoothly." I really don't care if another program ever comes out for the ST, I'm content with my system as it is. If Falcon comes out and looks like it will give me another 4 years of minimal needs to upgrade like my faithful ST, I wiil strongly consider buying one no matter if the rest of the world has gone DOS-Mad.... Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 90 Mon Jul 20, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 23:14 EDT Jerry, I have a '486/33 (Micro Channel) at work. When running Windoze (it's got 8M of RAM), it feels as fast as my 8Mhz 1040 (it's got 2.5M). That's pathetic. Turn off the virtual memory, it feels like a 16Mhz Atari. I've only got 3.5M of free RAM then though. Since the File Mangler is like using oven mits for brain surgery, I have to do all my file maintainance in DOS. Isn't the point of Windoze to rip off the Mac interface? When will Microsloth decide that THE WAY THE ST AND MAC HAVE ALWAYS HAD IT is the right way to do it? Never, they're Microsoft, and their way is Law. The "multitasking" under Windoze is a joke, too. Open a DOS window. You'll probably have to make DOS into a window by typing Alt-Enter (since it defaults to gross, vile, fullscreen). Make sure there's no floppy in A:. Type "dir a:". WHAM. DOS is fullscreen again. Can you say "bug"? Open a DOS window, and use zoo or lharc to make an archive with lots of files. While it's archiving the files, switch to something else. The DOS application STOPS COMPLETELY until you switch back to it. Bleh. And for this we paid at least $200? (since we had 3.0 before we had 3.1) Stick a 16Mhz '386 running Windoze beside a 16Mhz "Falcon". The "Falcon" will sell, unless the twit is there to get a Wing Commander II compatible machine. Even then the '386/16 is too slow. -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 91 Tue Jul 21, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 00:17 EDT Chuck. Sorry that the "Dark side" got to you. All the things that you pointed out: extra RAM, and Config, nightmares, etc. are the things that keep me away from DOS machines. That is why I love my ATARI systems but if I ever need to go to another plateform it will not be to the DOS side. So I will wait for the Falcon systems. Ringo. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 92 Tue Jul 21, 1992 N.WEINRESS [Norm] at 00:24 EDT I did my best to convince my doctor he should be using an ST. To the point, I _gave_ him a 520. He bought a 386 clone and multisync monitor, and I set it up as a dual system. Yesterday, I went there to install Window 3.1 and Word for Windows. Those two programs occupy _half_ of his 40 MB hard drive, and I advised him to get a second drive. What incredible inefficiency! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 93 Tue Jul 21, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:52 EDT E.KRIMEN - Keep in mind that *A LOT* of people *DID* have local dealer support for their Atari's when they bought them only to have those dealers drop Atari support or go out of business completely. I find the tone of your message that it's pretty much the user's fault for choosing Atari and deserve what they get (I know that's not quite what you said, but it seems close) somewhat annoying. D.ENGEL - Why not try the demo/Shareware idea where you give people a 'taste' of the game for free, but the real thing costs $10-$20? LEXICOR2 - Better yet, chloroform them or knock them out in some other way so they don't know you drive them hundreds of miles or took a few hours just get to an Atari dealer. C.KLIMUSHYN - Actually, some people have said that the Falcon running MultiTOS is more compatible with older software than the Mega STE and TT030 machine are. However, since MultiTOS has not been completed (and probably won't be until year's end, if even by then), it's hard to say, but it should be *AT LEAST* as (in)compatible as the MSTE and TT machines. Believe it or not, some of the normal Lynx retailers don't have that great of a relationship with Atari due to Atari's inability to supply products. That aside, Atari *HAS* expressed interest in selling their lower-end machines through 'specialty' outlets like Circuit City or other electronics stores. Atari has the Jaguar for Toys 'R' Us, SEARS, etc., but that won't be until next Spring. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 94 Tue Jul 21, 1992 J.LEBLANC3 [Jeff] at 05:34 EDT Lloyd, I just didn't know what was going on with the GE deal. It was a hot topic for awhile, and now, I haven't heard a word about it for a few weeks. Let me know if you hear anything about it. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 95 Wed Jul 22, 1992 M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 19:06 EDT Peter, I've been to Computer Success (on Bethel Road at Ohio 315). They've got a few things for Atari, but leave much to be desired. Doubtless, they won't carry the Falcon when it becomes available. ... Mike Squire ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 96 Thu Jul 23, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:54 EDT Folks, Think about it! Here we are, over a year after most of us were hopin' we'd have a TT030 class "B"... Here we are waiting for yet another system for .. months and months and months... not even knowing if they'll sc__w us again and sell all the systems they can make in Europe .. no class "B" for the US ... ahh shucks, gee, almost made immisions..darn... The last time I was in my local dealer (A BIG FAMOUS ONE IN PORTLAND) they had moved to a much smaller location.. and there they were, just like before, pimply faced kid playing the latest protected 5 disk set game.. no practical software running on the LONE class "A" TT030.. just bang.. bangbang... bang.. My friends, I want ATARI to succeed!! I just wish.. wish Mr. Tramiel and company wanted ATARI to succeed!! and succeed in the GOOD OLD USA!! I hate European Software, uky, .. gimi PageStream 3.0, and a revamped and modernized EasyDraw.. FOLKS, we won't see'em till they sell class "B" systems, HERE!! in the USA ... Here we are, its 1994, we're still waitin', just a few more weeks now, ATARI will blow are socks off, you wait and see!!...... I'll be there, payin' my forty bucks a month to Genie.. just waitin', wont it be great! Hope is ALIVE Jerry Richter Chris, Sign up for some Windows Training classes.. it might help! seriously.. running multiple true Windows packages is a DREAM.. dde, ever hear of it? Use Word for Windows 2.0? Excel 4.0? how many times have you had a streak of bombs when your auto folder burped?!! all OS's have problems. The File Manager in 3.1 is alot better than 3.0, but I agree, it's still not there yet! hear of Norton Desktop? made it just like NeoDesk.. just drag and copy!.... BUT hmmm what a shame they have to kick start the whole thing outa DOS .. poor old tired DOS with it's 640K memory managed mess! but, guess what? no matter what, a guy can go out and get help and get a new unprotected game any time of the day in any town in the good old USA... and once the man buys Norton Desktop and a few pure Windows packages.. he's is hog heaven.. and books and .. and.. well its rough to be a die hard ATARI nut like myself.... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 97 Thu Jul 23, 1992 R.COBBLE1 [ROD] at 23:17 EDT Lexicor - How much is this new Amiga? Is it downward compatible? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 98 Thu Jul 23, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:30 EDT If it makes you feel better, Atari is not the only company to be blind to great opportunities and market shifts, just look at Wang and DEC. Hell DEC was a $12 BILLION company, and they've blown it as bad or worse than Atari ever did. I know alot of people around here who doubt DEC will survive. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 99 Fri Jul 24, 1992 M.PERDUE [Mario] at 01:41 EDT Jim, I'll bet DEC wishes they had the Lynx to fall back on, huh? :^) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 100 Fri Jul 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:53 EDT I mentioned this in the "Soapbox...Editorial" topic here as well, but if Atari expects the Falcons to fly at all, they need both a *HUGE* ($25-$40 million) marketing campaign for it as well as *AT LEAST* one sizable retail chain (e.g. CompUSA, WaldenSoftware, Circuit City, etc.) to carry and support the machines. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 101 Fri Jul 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 18:41 EDT R.COBBLE1 - According to many others, this 'new Amiga' that was mentioned isn't a new Amiga at all, rather just a standard A3000T that has been out for about a year or so now with a bunch of third party hardware hooked up to it. It's the same as an A3000, but in a tower case. M.PERDUE - What good is a Lynx to a company if they can't/won't market it? According to Forbes, the Lynx only has about 3% of the handheld market. Sure, that's better than the ST/TT, but hardly anything to get all that excited about. By the way, some of the rumors say the Falcon supports 1, 4, and 14MB configurations. Are these the only configurations? Does anyone know what the SIMM setup is inside? If these are the only possible configurations, I'm trying to figure out why there's such a big jump between 4 and 14MB and what kind of SIMM setup that would yield the 14MB figure. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 102 Fri Jul 24, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 19:20 EDT To: S.Johnson10 [Steve] I wish I could put my Atari STE in a IBM Style case I was thinking about cutting it up into 2 parts but I would then have to solder all the edges together with wire. :) But really if the Atari boards were compatable with the IBM style cases they would not have to go thrue all of the case mods everyone could buy what they want if they dont like what atari supplys. Im a bit sick of Game mach like 1040 cases. if I could hook up a external keyboard I would maybe put the think in a Tower case and port the keyboard out (IBM Style keyBoard). I do work with 5-6 IBM compatable computers at work from a 286 - 486 portable/desktop (only one with windows thats the 486). The only thing about it is they all belong to the Army. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 103 Fri Jul 24, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:03 EDT Steve, no really, why the 1,4,14? Perhaps it has something to do with the sizes of ram chips available in the world these days...256K, 1Meg, 4Meg. Not that I know whether the rumor is true or not, but analyzing the rumor I would assume the what I assumed. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 104 Sat Jul 25, 1992 J.LYONS16 [JPL] at 02:00 EDT J.ALLEN27, Any guess on how hard/expensive it would be to move a Falcon from the 1040 style case to a mini tower? I think that would be a welcome upgrade. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 105 Sat Jul 25, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 02:29 EDT Yikes, been reading a number of UK mags and it looks like Atari is really starting to lose the European market too. This is a surprise, I thought they were rock solid across the ocean. Come On Atari get the lead (and Falcon) out! -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 106 Sat Jul 25, 1992 M.PERDUE [Mario] at 02:37 EDT Steve, Lately I've been seeing TV commercials and print ads for the Lynx. Also, at a local shopping mall this last week there were no fewer than fifty Lynx's set up is conjunction with a Batman Returns promotion. Several of the machines were given away as part of this promotion. I dunno, it looks mysteriously like marketing a product to me! :^) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 107 Sat Jul 25, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:43 EDT I am the one who mentioned the AMIGA. The reason I did this was I have just seen and then had a chance to work on one. It is the A3000T with "a bunch of third party" hardware. What makes it new is that it is being offered in a particular configuration to be "a complete desktop video" production solution. It does not have the toaster installed. I was told by some one who will remain un named that the Falcon was suposed to be a toaster buster, that it would crush the toaster and the amiga grip on video stuff! Well I just felt that given that notion that outlining just what the Falcon would be compeating with. I have to say in all honesty that this system is very impressive and can not be discounted out of hand. Most contemporary computer users and animators...real and would be....will be compairing anything claimed by ATARI to just these kinds of machines. I have to say that price not with standing you can now go to any store selling Amiga products and buy off the shelf every thin you need to do DTV. There are many software and Hardware selections to choose from. The question then becomes what do you as users have to choose from and how available is it? I make these observations only to add som perspective. LEXICOR ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 108 Sat Jul 25, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 06:50 EDT To: J.LYONS16 [JPL] well you really can put a current ST in a tower if you wanted with alot of work. if the Falcon had a port for a Detachable keyboard then it would be easy. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 109 Sat Jul 25, 1992 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 09:52 EDT Why not just build all the guts into the wall, or desk drawer? Only thing atop the desk would be monitor and keyboard, with a slot for floppies... I truly don't understand the apparent fascination with tower cases. I mean, be artistic - use an old breadbox, peach crate, or old wood-case radio, grandfather clock, anything. Heck, build it all into an old briefcase or portmanteau, voila - a portable! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 110 Sat Jul 25, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 12:27 EDT Becasue a Tower Case allows you to keep JUST the keyboard and Monitor on the desk top. The tower goes on the floor, or behind the desk. -Tom McComb {12:12 pm} Saturday, July 25, 1992 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 111 Sat Jul 25, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 13:45 EDT Someday, someone will take one of the popular tower designs, and make a replacement back to it that matches the machine (in this case the Falcon) The old back is cut off...with a highpressure water cutter...and the new back is spot welded in place. All the ports would match, and it'd be a nice smooth install. In fact THAT is precisely what Atari should have available as a seperate product...the tower case!! I personally want a motherboard layout that would fit in a case about the size of a Mac SCSI disk case, and have the 50pin connector on back. Then just build a stack of SCSI devices. That's what I want, instead of a tower, but to each his own. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 112 Sat Jul 25, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 13:48 EDT BTW, if you did put the Falcon in a tower case, it'd be easy to build a little backplane adapter that connects to the "rumored" expansion connector and would provide either some 6U VME slots, or a bunch of PC expansion slots, and would open up the world of expansion to the Atari. Just a thought. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 113 Sat Jul 25, 1992 SLP at 20:34 EDT I just want to see the Falcon fly. Pretty soon Apple will have its multi media machines announced, and you know the DOS crowd doesn't sit still for long. Scott ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 114 Sun Jul 26, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:26 EDT What I was confused about is the 14MB figure. If there are 4 internal SIMM slots, then 1MB and 4MB configs would make sense with 256K and 1MB SIMM's, but 4 4MB SIMM's would be 16MB. Or is Atari doing something stupid again and making people lose 2MB on that? If the Falcon has a 68030 in it, then it's not limited to 16MB of address space like the ST's 68000 is, minus TOS and cartridge port addressing (although Atari ripped us off there by limiting RAM to 4MB! ). Also, I would hope Atari wouldn't limit their machines yet again by not allowing mixing of SIMM's, so that configurations of 1, 2, 2.5, 4, 6*, 8, 10, 12*, and 14/16MB are possible rather than not allowing any kind of RAM configuration between 4MB and 14/16MB and rendering previously used SIMM's useless. (NOTE: 6MB and 12MB configurations would only be possible with the rare 2MB SIMM.) When the STE came out, I was annoyed enough that Atari didn't 'fix' the 4MB RAM limit and was annoyed even further when I bought 2 1MB SIMM's and couldn't use any of the original 256K SIMM's to yield a 2.5MB configuration, making the original 256K SIMM's completely worthless. I know all this bitching may seem pointless to you, but it's just that Atari has a habit of purposely crippling their own hardware. Atari probably also put the 14/16MB restriction on the Falcon 030 to make the TT030 still viable as the only machine to allow higher RAM configurations until the desktop/tower model Falcon's come out next year. Hopefully, someone will come up with peripherals for the Falcon 030 so that the TT030 won't have *ANYTHING* over the Falcon 030 (more RAM, VMEbus, etc.) and people won't have to buy one of those ugly things. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 115 Sun Jul 26, 1992 J.DOUGLAS5 [JimD] at 03:05 EDT Lloyd: I must agree with you about the dire need for Atari to establish a dealer network if the Falcon is to suceed. Sure they can sell them mailorder, but ONLY TO THOSE WHO NOW OWN ATARIs. Selling them to new Atari users will require local dealers, PERIOD. BoB: I can understand the reluctance of Atari to release details on new hardware too soon. But there is a SLIGHT difference between those companies (like Intel, or Microsoft) that have the entire computer world waiting with baited breath for their every pronouncement, and little Atari, with its head bearly above water and about to go down for the third time. WHile waiting for the next machine to arrive Atari continues to suffer attrition of its user base, who have gone off to greener pastures, most never to return. Saying something, ANYTHING, would help to keep the patient atari loyalists around. No need to worry about the harm that an incorrect early announcement might have on Atari's reputation (I already don't believe a word you say ). JimD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 116 Sun Jul 26, 1992 S.WINICK at 07:58 EDT Steve, As far as SIMM sockets go, all systems have requrements as far as what combinations of sockets and SIMM sizes that are allowable. Atari is by no means "crippling" their machines because of having to conform to those physical requirements. Actually, upgrading SIMM memory on the Atari platform is one heck of a lot easier than on the alternative platforms. With Atari's design, you merely plug in the desired (and allowable) combination of SIMMs and your machine is ready to 'rock and roll'. On an MS-DOS machine, you will not only have to figure out the correct and acceptable combinations, but will also need to figure out which dip switches or jumpers on the mother board must be changed, and then write a new set of computerese instructions in the CONFIG.SYS because the system is too dumb to realize the additional memory is even there or know what to do with it. Now if you want to talk about 'crippled' or downright idiotic --- look at that alternative! Atari's SIMM system and memory handling design is a pleasure. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 117 Sun Jul 26, 1992 S.WINICK at 07:59 EDT JimD, Atari is taking the correct approach in not publicly releasing specs for prototype machines. In the past, those types of releases only served to fuel rumors and controversy, hurt sales of existing models, and frustrate consumers when the new machines weren't delivered as quickly as they would have liked. The excitement of new models also tends to wear off when you know everything about them so far before they're acutally released. ;-] Patience ... everything in due time. Remember, even when the next generation of Atari computers is rolled out, you can be sure they'll already be working on the prototypes for the next one still.... and beyond! Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 118 Sun Jul 26, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 12:10 EDT Steve, nobody is doing something stupid. The Falcon is _ST_ compatible in most ways, so what exactly does that mean, re: 4Meg SIMMs? Turn on the old brain and think. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 119 Sun Jul 26, 1992 R.WILSON36 [Bob Wilson] at 14:07 EDT Sheldon Where are you finding PC clones that need to have DIP switches set when you change SIMMS. I have not seen a clone like that in over 3 years. I upgraded my machine to 20 meg simply by adding 4 SIMMS. The machine mentioned the fact on boot up that the config had changed and merrily altered its own memory to reflect the fact. No muss, no fuss. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 120 Sun Jul 26, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 14:29 EDT >The last time I was in my local dealer (A BIG FAMOUS ONE IN PORTLAND) >they had moved to a much smaller location.. and there they were, just >like before, pimply faced kid playing the latest protected 5 disk set >game.. no practical software running on the LONE class "A" TT030.. >just bang.. bangbang... bang.. My friends, I want ATARI to succeed!! This is not necessarily an Atari problem, although Atari could move to help solve it. This is the dealer's problem resulting from his inability to properly sell a computer. I have a local dealer who is like this. But I also have another local dealer who is not like this. The first dealer sells MS-DOS clones as well as STs. The second only sells STs. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 121 Sun Jul 26, 1992 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 16:40 EDT Tom, Yeah, I knew that. Guess I should've liberally dosed my missive with 's. I guess what I was hoping for was a somewhat less-literal and more free-form approach to the whole subject of 'what goes where.' I'm aware, too, of the attractiveness of existing tower cases given power supplies, mounting brackets, fans, cable runs and connectors, drive bays, etc. Had I the budget and know-how, I'd go for it, as that would combine several items on my desk into one enclosure. Given what info I've seen so far, I guess I'll take the Falcon first, then fret about where I'm gonna put it. Jim, yay! Nice dream. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 122 Sun Jul 26, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 19:03 EDT Steve, I don't think you will have any problems with the amount of memory that can be installed in the Falcon :-) The non-binary numbers you are hearing about may be a result of some memory being allocated to the system (OS, video, sound, ???) with the remainder as user memory. For example, a 16MB system may need to allocate 2MB to system resources leaving 14MB for user programs. // Ron @ Atari Advantage Magazine // ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 123 Sun Jul 26, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 21:47 EDT Jonesy- Buy me a Falcon too (you'll probably get a better deal buying two at once) and I'll figure out where we'll put them. You won't have to think about it even once. Really. I don't mind. -Tom McComb {5:23 pm} Sunday, July 26, 1992 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 124 Sun Jul 26, 1992 K.DRAKE [SirFransis] at 23:40 EDT Talking about brain damaged memory schemes, this one has to take the cake. Who else is aware that one of Apple's new Macs, the IILC takes three 4MB simms but for no other reason than design error, can only use 10MB. It doesn't do anything special with the other two megs (system memory or whatever) it just doesn't see it!! And you gotta use the 4MB simm! I'm late to the party. What's the latest on colors and resolution. I'd heard 24-bit on the motherboard at at least VGA. I think it'd be a great idea if it shipped with some kind of programming language, even f it was only a BASIC port. I'd hate to think that I've got great sounds and graphics and can't use them until someone else decides to write a program! Bounding over the Sailing main, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 125 Mon Jul 27, 1992 DAVESMALL at 00:08 EDT I would advise anyone reading this topic to take it with an entire shaker of salt. There's endless speculation about stuff that will be instantly apparent does not apply once the curtain's raised. I would also not like everyone to have a certain image of a "dream machine", which simply cannot be built economically, and have it dashed when the curtain is lifted. There's nothing unhappier than someone you've almost satisfied. I've read quite a bit of coverage of Falcon-030 in European mags, complete with photos and so forth. It'll be interesting to see what Atari Advantage has to say about it. If you'd like to know *now* then pick up the beforementioned mags. Until then, let the thunderers thunders and the pontificators, uh, pick their noses about the specifics of the machine. I've seen more wrong stuff here ... but people had a good reason to wonder about it. I guess taking some time away from the nets has given me a little perspective on things. It's good for you. As a purely hypothetical question, wouldn't you want Spectre running such a machine if you were trying to sell it? Spectre helps sell (and keeps in service) an interesting number of ST/TT machines and has spawned its own subcult. That should tell you more than enough than you need to know. Incidentally, the Dusseldorf show in August is traditionally an Atari bash, and if memory serves me, new machines are often debuted there. Since it's a large show, that implies a large number of machines, if Atari wants one in every booth, like Apple and those idiot System 7 signs. Dealer network, yada, yada. -- thanks, Dave / Gadgets ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 126 Mon Jul 27, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:50 EDT M.PURDUE - Looks can be deceiving. LEXICOR - Okay, it's just that you gave the impression it was a brand new Amiga. Also, as far as the Falcon being a 'Toaster buster,' don't forget that the STE was supposed to be the 'Amiga killer,' but apparently Atari was shooting blanks at the competition. Also, the *REAL* new Amiga's also are rumored to have DSP's. However, after reading the new AEO last night which pretty much substantiated all the rumored specs, the Falcon seems like a real 'Amiga killer,' but 'Toaster buster' remains to be seen. So is anyone working on the 'Falcon Boink' demo? I seriously hope there are some kick-ass demos for the Falcon when it comes out that show what the machine is capable of (and I don't mean just a bunch of static, pretty pictures). Actually, as a marketing idea, I wish Atari would produce a 15-20+ minute video for the Falcon which explained the specifics of the machine, showed different applications for it (i.e. showed it running several DTP, MIDI, etc. applications), and then ended with some full-screen, full stereo sound, absolutely amazing graphics and sound demos that show off the capabilities of the machine. They could, God forbid, put Falcon ads in some major publications and offer the demo video in them for $5 or something like that. Lots of other companies have had success with demo videos (even offering them for *FREE*), so perhaps Atari could too. By the way, with the release of the TT030 and the upcoming release of the 'Falcon' machines, perhaps it's about time to rename this RoundTable from the Atari *ST* RoundTable to something more appropriate. However, they still have distinguish it from the Atari 8-bit RoundTable. How about just calling this the "Atari RoundTable," or would that be too confusing to people looking for the 8-bit RT? Maybe we can have a contest to rename the RT? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 128 Mon Jul 27, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 20:16 EDT Dave Small: Are you implying that the FALCON will NOT do my laundry??? If that is true, then damn Atari, I'm buying a PC!!! Anthony ps... ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 129 Mon Jul 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:28 EDT FIFTHCRUSADE: Thanks for making that clear to me. It is about what I expected Atari to have done, based on what I had heard about the addressing of the TT RAM. There is very little tech-info available for the Atari machines these days, so I never heard anything really definite. I never heard the term 'unrolling loops'... it sounds interesting. If it means what I think it does, then mine are what you'd call 'partially unrolled'. ;-) Charles Johnson: The name's "Doug" and not "Dave", but I don't mind. (The guy I work with is named "Dave", and people exchange our names by mistake all the time. But you can't use that excuse. ) _____________________ /hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 130 Mon Jul 27, 1992 DENNYA [Denny Atkin] at 21:53 EDT If any of you guys are in Southern California and you want to see the Falcon's "competition" (methinks it's silly to worry about the Amiga--it's the bloody PC that's killing all the innovative machines), you might want to check out the World of Commodore/Amiga show, which will be held in Pasadena Sept. 11-13. Rumor has it that the second generation Amigas will be shown there. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 131 Mon Jul 27, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 22:31 EDT I have to sheepishly admit to being somewhat ignorant of what the rumored DSP will do for us. Okay, I realize that it will do wonders for digitizing and analog-izing audio. But, anything else? I don't play tons of games, so what will it do for ME? -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 132 Mon Jul 27, 1992 RJROBINSON [ Ron ] at 22:33 EDT Hmmmm, did I see a hint from Dave we might see an add-on goodie for the Falcon that could provide built-in Mac emulation ;-) -- Ron ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 133 Tue Jul 28, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 00:48 EDT Winick, I don't know what kind of DOS systems you sell but none of mine require ANY switch settings for memory nor do you need to change the config.sys.. ( I do this for a living)... some will require hitting to change one line in setup.. but thats it .... could not be easier... (DOS still su_c_s)though... Sales of existing models? Not in the State of Oregon.... Folks are dropping Atari like a bad dream!! anything ATARI could do to keep the few that are left to HANG around for another six months would help the cause... Yes in a normal flurishing Atari Market you might be right but this is NOT a normal flurishing market.. AD-ADVANTAGE, Sounds good to me! and don't forget if the OS permits there are now 8meg and 16meg simms (i.e. 2Xpiggybacks and 4Xpiggy backs)as long as they are using the newer 32 bit simms sockets (O' heavens could they really be so wonderful and intellegent?)... come on just one littl' leak can't hurt! DAVE!!, your still kicking! Yes, now would'nt it be nice to have 256K roms with system 7 on a falcon!! what a choice of software.. lets see hmmm 386 socket running Windows 3.1... Mac window running Excel 4.0 and Word 5.... Falcon Window with true color running Calamus... NAAAA on a home computer! with a misly 16meg of memory... WAIT take 15 minutes and think about it!! ... wow even a super compatible 1.44 floppy... WAIT...WAIT... I feel the big one coming.. Jerry Richter.. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 134 Tue Jul 28, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:11 EDT S.WINICK - Actually, I was talking about 'crippled' compared to the Mac's which allow the 2.5MB configuration (although other SIMM mixing requires Mac's which have 8 SIMM slots). I just don't like the idea that there's possibly nothing between 4 and 14/16MB to step up to, so if you want to go *ANYWHERE* beyond 4MB, you'd have to spend around $500 (minus maybe $100 if you sold your 4 1MB SIMM's) to go all the way to 14/16MB. It would be *MUCH* nicer if I could upgrade to 6 or 10MB for around $150 or $250, respectively, instead of having to fork out $500 to expand from 4MB. I guess we'll need another n/i/g/h/t/m/a/r/e/ hack like SIMMFIX! J.ALLEN27 - I know, I sometimes like going off half-cocked for the fun on it. However, keep in mind Atari's done stupid things before, so you never know. DAVESMALL - Wow! You've reared your ugly head around here. (It's just a figure of speach and no offense was intended.) AEO #9209 already spills some of the beans from the Atari Advantage article and it pretty much verifies *MOST* of the rumored specs, which is a big plus. It also says that the 'Falcon 030' *WILL* be shown publicly at the AtariMesse and that Sam Tramiel will have online conferences on GEnie and Delphi in early August to discuss the new machines, as well as to 'spill the beans' on all the specs perhaps. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 135 Tue Jul 28, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 01:20 EDT J.Richter, I should sign up for Windows training classes?!? Excuuuuuuse me, but I can _program_ GEM, and I've used every GUI in common distribution (with the exception of whatever the Amigoids use)... Corporate brain-deadness prevents us from using Word for Windows, whatever for Windows. Also, there are no Windows word processors that support character styles, which are very common in our corporate stylesheet. Ventura for Windows has practically turned me off of DTP... -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 136 Tue Jul 28, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 02:07 EDT Denny, Sept 12 & 13 is the Glendale show rumor the Falcon will be showing. Also pay $25.00(?) for 3 day for the Commodore/Amiga Show. I seen the ads in Amiga world. Also the Amiga 3000T with all goodies like 68040 board with extra ram is $5,000. not including the Amiga. The total price for that great system with 110 Megram, hardrive, 24bit card, Stereo sound, CD-drive, Syquest88 Drive, Supra 9600 Fax/Modem is total price $20,000.00! So for that much get an SGI Indigo system. But at least the Amiga users have a choice of boards and CD-drives. Also the Amiga world magazine editor worries that most people think that the amiga is a GAME machine and that commodore is not doing much to advertise the system and that untill now they are going to start selling systems Bundles with the low end Amiga system. So I will go to the Glendale show and let the Amiga show pass. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 137 Tue Jul 28, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 05:16 EDT RJROBINSON - With the current 'normal' cost of 128K Mac ROM's, Mac emulation doesn't seem as sweet as it used to be (i.e. you can buy a used Mac for about the same price as a Spectre GCR w/ ROM's). Until Nutek has their Mac- compatible ROM's ready and they can be used (not to mention bought relatively cheaply) with Spectre, or the cost of 128K Mac ROM's comes down significantly, it just doesn't seem worth it anymore. J.RICHTER - If you think things are bad in Oregon, you should check out Georgia. I went to a family reunion in North Dakota last Summer and there was noticeably more Atari support there than there is here in Georgia. Then again, I'd have to say that North Dakotans are far more intelligent than Georgians, so maybe that's why. Okay, is it time to discuss more rumors? Here's one! I heard a rumor that the 386SX board that Atari supposedly has a third party (Vortex, perhaps) designing for the Falcon's 'direct processor slot' will be able to multitask with TOS-based applications. Also, has any date been set yet for Sam T. to do an RTC in August to discuss Atari's new products as the Atari Advantage feature on the Falcon says? Here's an idea! If such an RTC *IS* supposed to happen, maybe a free RTC can be arranged as a GEnie's Hot Summer Nights special. By the way, why aren't there any HSN specials already set up for this RT? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 138 Tue Jul 28, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 07:58 EDT A gentle nudge from the management... Please direct any messages featuring feature comparisons between any Atari computer and any non-Atari computer over to the topic "Atari Systems vs Other Systems", Topic 22 in this category. Thank you. - Jeff Williams Asst. Sysop ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 139 Tue Jul 28, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 11:37 EDT Wake up time, anyone can slap a 286 or 386sx emulator in the ST or Falcon and have it running concurrently, or "multitask", all they have to do is do it. There is nothing new about the Falcon that would make it easier or harder. The "expansion" slot in the Falcon, according to rumor, is quite generic and can be used for any purpose under the sun...video, PC, Mac, speed, etc. I'd assume a memory board that takes SIMMs could take 4 1Megs, or 2 4Megs or, 4 4Megs. How much more flexible do you need? The 4Meg SIMMs are now $100, so the full capacity of ram is acheivable for $400, so what's the big hassle about. Someone on the Amiga has produced a MacII emulator, only problem is, you have to get the roms ;-) It does system 7, as does AmaxII. Sounds like Gadgets has fallen way be hind in this field. Both have serial and SCSI ports, read/write Mac disks, etc, etc. Maybe those folks could be lured over to the Atari platform with the new Falcon? Go for it Bob, communicate with those developers!! Considering a whole Mac Classic costs $800-1000, paying $500 for a GCR setup is less than desirable. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 140 Tue Jul 28, 1992 DENNYA [Denny Atkin] at 16:08 EDT Ringo, Is Glendale in Southern California? If so, I might pop over one day just for kicks. Unfortunately, I don't think people consider the Amiga a game machine anymore; it's now thought of as a video machine. Which is a shame, IMHO, as the games market is much bigger than the video market.. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 142 Tue Jul 28, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 19:27 EDT RINGO -- The FALCON at the Glendale show??? But wait, I thought Bob Brodie said that Atari would never show _new_ (and yet unavailable) hardware at _any_ user show? (This statement was made after last year's ST-Book showing at Glendale, but not at WAACE debacle). Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 143 Tue Jul 28, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 20:00 EDT Swampy.... The Falcon may be shown at the boston cmputer Society meeting in Sept. and that could be considered a user group show (albeit a LARGE one! :) Anthony ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 144 Tue Jul 28, 1992 RJROBINSON [ Ron ] at 21:47 EDT Jerry, Bad news is it looks like Falcon won't use SIMMs. Good news is affordable SIMMS are too big to get to the amount of memory Atari could squeeze into the Falcon case ;-) -- Ron ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 145 Tue Jul 28, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 21:49 EDT Jim, >>Considering a whole Mac Classic costs $800-$1000, paying $500 for a GCR >>setup is less than desirable. IMO...yes and no. You get a larger monitor, you get to use/share the hard drive that you already own, and in many cases, you get a system that is faster than a Mac Classic. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 146 Tue Jul 28, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 22:11 EDT And if one computer dies, both are dead... Okay, a hacker I know broke into the Atari mainframe last night and stole the Falcon CAD files. Before I turned the lowlife in along with the files I had a look at them... o 68050 60 MHZ o TOS BUS Expansion slots o SVGA output o Detachable 110 key enhanced keyboard (w/trackball) o optional 486 card o optional Mac IIci card (minus ROMS) o 20 meg optical floppy o 300 meg HD (Vassagut) o all standard ports o Price of $1795 List!!! Is somebody pulling somebody's leg here, or what? This machine will save Atari. And it will save the free world from global warming because.... It runs on two nine volt batteries!!!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 147 Tue Jul 28, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 23:26 EDT swampy, King T. is dropping hints that a new machine might be at the Glendale show! Remember next month is the big Co here on Genie with ATARI so by september we could be seeing the new machines. I remember 2 years ago the big surprice at the Glendale show was the TT. Denny. Yes, the Glendale show is in Southern California. The show is going to be September 12 & 13 saturday and sunday, please ask John King T. for more information. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 148 Tue Jul 28, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:37 EDT When you get it down to one 9V battery, call me ;-) Lloyd, on the other hand you get an entire second computer, with 40Meg Hdisk and HD floppy for only $300-500 more than a GCR. Two computers is V better than one, right? ;-) Who says the Falcon won't use SIMMs? I can't imagine anything stopping them from stuffing 4 SIMM sockets in there, I think they have finally come to the re~ralization that they don't want to be in the memory business, they want to stick to making computers. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 149 Wed Jul 29, 1992 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 00:15 EDT Tom, You got a deal. If, that is, Ed McMahon calls. On my budget, it's gonna be a while before there's a Falcon on my desk, at least. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 150 Wed Jul 29, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 01:36 EDT Radio Shack RED, GREEN or the expensive Alkalines? ANd how long on a fresh set of each? -Tom McComb {1:14 pm} Tuesday, July 28, 1992 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 151 Wed Jul 29, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 02:17 EDT Jim, >>...on the other hand you get an entire second computer, with 40meg >>hdisk and HD floppy for only $300-$500 more than a GCR. Two computers >>is better than one, right? ;-) Well...yes and no. First, it's $300-$500 more - money I don't have to spend with a GCR. Second, I just barely have room for one system. I don't know where I'd put a second one. Third, would you put me up at your house? Cause I'd be looking for another place to live (in another state) if my wife caught me bringing another system into this house . Lloyd > Pulley ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 152 Wed Jul 29, 1992 CHERRY.FONTS [Todd] at 02:43 EDT SVGA?? How disappointing! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 153 Wed Jul 29, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 03:49 EDT Yea, too bad they could set another standard. XXSVGA or something. No, you would have to be over 18 to use it! 1280 X 1280 X 256 colors. Wow! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 155 Wed Jul 29, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 10:58 EDT Everyone is aware that my "list" was a joke? Right? It uses a rechargable battery pack. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 156 Wed Jul 29, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 18:55 EDT J.ALLEN27 - I mentioned that the rumored 386SX emulator for the Falcon 'multitasks' because none of the previous internal IBM hardware emulators for the Atari platform did. If the Falcon allows an 8MB RAM configuration with either 4 2MB SIMM's or 2 4MB SIMM's, then that's fine. It's just that all the rumors have said that it allows 1, 4, and 14MB configurations. Since 2MB wasn't mentioned, I thought maybe it required all 4 SIMM slots to be occupied. I also wondered how the Amax guys got the jump on Dave on getting System 7 support and all. I was actually shocked to hear that. Does that mean the Amiga is now the premiere Mac emulator? D.D.MARTIN - Bob Brodie mentioned on Delphi that the Falcon may show up at the Glendale show since it will have already been shown publicly at the AtariMesse in Germany. A.DIPIETRO - Correction: The Falcon *WILL* be shown at the BCS meeting in September. LEXICOR2 - What was surprising about the TT at the Glendale show 2 years ago? It should've been there 4-5 years ago! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 159 Wed Jul 29, 1992 C.CARTER23 [7TH_SENSE] at 20:47 EDT Check out the new OS/2... I agree the MegaSTE is better and I have both but the new OS/2 looks like it may do a better job than windows by giving PC owners what we have enjoyed for so long. IBM stated that they had sold over 400,000 copies of OS/2 so far. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 160 Wed Jul 29, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 23:31 EDT I heard alot of good things about OS2 and love to Microsoft get some real competition :). On the down side in takes up 32 megs on your hard drive!!! Windows NT is suppose to be as good if not better and is scheduled for release by the end of the year. Just a gut feeling, but if Atari doesn't get Falcon out by the end of the year Europe will be lost and after that there's no other market to lose.... -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 161 Thu Jul 30, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:04 EDT I can't tell you what the memory setup in the Falcon is, I can only tell you Atari has done a good job in the basic design, and none of the concerns you've expressed...other than will they actually make them...is worth worrying over, it's a far more thorough design than previous units. The Amax has moved ahead because the developers have been working on it full steam ahead with more resources for a long time. Sometimes money can help expedite results ;-) Also, the folks at Cybercube do the hardware designs for Amax...pretty impressive!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 166 Thu Jul 30, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 20:27 EDT Steve Johnson: Correction...the FALCON was *supposed* to be shown at the BCS show in APRIL!!!! Soooo...even though things haven't fallen apart (yet)...I still say they *MAY* show it in September.... Anthony ps...geez, and I'M an optimist!!! pps...Lloyd, Gov. Weld is a REPUBLICAN... ppps...Steve...I think I'm the only Anthony on the ST RT, so feel free to use my name ... ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 171 Thu Jul 30, 1992 RJROBINSON [ Ron ] at 23:23 EDT Jim, I may get shot for pointing this out, but I hate to see anyone with false expectations. The Falcon does not have SIMMs. There appear to be very good reasons for this. Of course Atari could make a liar out of me with a last minute board tweak :-) The info I have shows memory in the Falcon consisting of surface mount DRAM on both sides (16 per side) of a 2" X 4" daughter board connected to the main board by a pair of connectors. This board is smaller than a pair of SIMMs, but when maxed out looks to be capable of holding up to 16 MB (?possibly more?). The setup reminds me of memory expansion used in some of the laptops. Looks like a great opportunity for after market vendors to me :-) Considering the keyboard style case, built-in supply, hard drive, and with all the other goodies in the birdie, there just isn't much vertical room for big, clunky SIMMs ;-) I hope people will think about this before flamming Atari for not using SIMMs if it turns out to be true. I agree with your comments on the the basic design and have the opinion that Atari has effectively quadrupled the overall computing horsepower/buck with the Falcon. It will take some time for the software developers to hit the wall running this critter. -- Ron ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 172 Fri Jul 31, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 01:23 EDT No SIMMS. No detatchable keyboard. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck.... The Falcon is a game machine disguised as a computer. Which isn't a bad thing. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 173 Fri Jul 31, 1992 M.PERDUE [Mario] at 01:41 EDT Kene, If the selection of software I see on the PC store shelves is any indication, then what the average computer user wants is a game machine disguised as a computer. The Falcon should fill the bill nicely. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 174 Fri Jul 31, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 02:32 EDT Like I said. BEing a machine isn't a bad thing. Nintendo isn't complaining. *cha,/d./d,/ If the Falcon builds up a good user base as a game machine it's that many more people in the ST base. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 180 Sat Aug 01, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 00:32 EDT Chris.. No big deal.. hmmm I have 30 different character stiles for both AMI Pro and Word for Windows 2.0... Jerry.. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 181 Sat Aug 01, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:35 EDT RJROBINSON - If Atari moves to a proprietary RAM expansion for the Falcon 030 (i.e. if RAM can't be easily upgraded in a 'standard' manner), that would be no better than stupid. I just can't see them not using SIMM's or SIPP's if they have any inkling of intelligence. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 182 Sat Aug 01, 1992 N.WEINRESS [Norm] at 01:36 EDT I wonder if the memory in the new machine is connected via a PCMCIA compatible connector, if it doesn't use SIMMs. If so, the possibilties are endless! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 183 Sat Aug 01, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 02:37 EDT I have a feeling Atari may be intending to rely heavily on 3rd party addons, like ram boards, which could be an excellent move in the end. I'm sure JRI could whip up a SIMM board no sweat. Perhpas Atari's boards will be done in what ever would be the most efficient way, since they need to make a PCboard anyway, why not just put the rams on it, rather than needing 4 more little PCboards (the SIMMs). If the rumor is right, the fact that the ram is on a seperate board is very good news, flexibility-wise. I agree, if the ram was to be on the motherboard, then SIMMs is the way to go, and given the design of the STE and MegaSTE, I think Atari already agrees. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 184 Sat Aug 01, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 02:52 EDT The sentiment is moot is the system is a game machine. Nintendos don't have SIMMS. The more rumors I read the more it sounds like one really kick- *ss game machine that doesn't need a soundblaster or a special video board. Do I remember reading about paddle ports? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 186 Sat Aug 01, 1992 MUSE [Tomas] at 05:13 EDT Steve, If the RAM in the Falcon is installed in a daughterboard, that might allow other RAM expansion devices to be easily substituted. ===Tomas=== July 31, 1992 @ 23:13:13 pm PDT ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 187 Sat Aug 01, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 08:08 EDT To: S.Johnson10 [Steve] thats what I was thinking, you can get Simm's on every IBM corner. If it is hard to upgrade the computer (do to Tech or do to the fact I think there is one(1) Atari dealer in the whole U.S.A.) then I do not think there will be alot of Upgrading going on. To: J.Allen27 [Fast Tech] Sure JRI could do that, but they at one time if I remember correctly were also charging 5x the price for Simm upgrades. That would be good for them but not for the Atari Users. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 188 Sat Aug 01, 1992 S.WINICK at 10:37 EDT Mark, Let's not make it sound worse than it really is. There is DEFINITELY more than "one (1) Atari dealer in the whole U.S.A." As for SIMM upgrades, they're easy on ANY machine designed for them, and more difficult (and obviously more costly) on machines not designed for them. That goes for ANY platform, not just Atari. S*9,Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 189 Sat Aug 01, 1992 RJROBINSON [ Ron ] at 13:52 EDT Steve, It looks to me the designer(s) had the choice of giving us a couple of SIMM slots (2 to 8 meg memory) or going with an "easily changable" RAM board allowing 16 meg of memory. I think there is plenty of intelligence in that decision. Keeping in mind the Falcon isn't much larger than most laptops, laptop vendors faced with trying to squeeze the maximum memory into limited space have reached the same conclusion. Jim already pointed out the additional flexibility we will gain with this arrangement. Norm, A PCMCIA slot would have been nice. There are standard SCSI "Card Drives" that could plug into the Falcon SCSI port. Even nicer would be an after market product that allowed PCMCIA cards to be plugged into _any_ Atari computer cartridge slot ;-) -- Ron ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 191 Sat Aug 01, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 17:15 EDT Just go the Advantage.. Gee, this could be the ultimate HOME system that also runs some real serious software... A little dissapointed.. thought we'd get true color at 640x480.. nop' looks like 320x200x32000 ... 640x480x256... well this is really as good as you need with the standard Multi Monitors... and considering the LOW price most folks will be Happy! for us power mongers (i.e. 1280x960x16) we'll have to wait for the more expensive separates next year.. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 192 Sat Aug 01, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 18:49 EDT To: S.Winick well you were the one I was refering to as the N.C. dealer. I know of no others. ~ ~ o \_/ ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 193 Sat Aug 01, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 22:43 EDT I wouldn't have any problems with Atari marketing the Falcon as a game machine, if they didn't market it ONLY as a game machine. They must show off its other strengths, such as music, DTP, and graphics. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 194 Sat Aug 01, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 23:31 EDT J.RICHTER - I've spent a long time looking at this 640x200x4 monitor. I'd be thrilled to switch to 640x480x256. I'm a bit disappointed in the seperate memory board, since I suspect that memory expansion is going to cost me more than the $40 per meg I had hoped for. If I'm not mistaken, MultiTOS will probably "need" at least 6-8 megs of elbow room, and I suppose the base Falcon will be 1 meg. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 195 Sun Aug 02, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:43 EDT I just thought of something interesting... The Falcon (w/ MultiTOS) will have one *BIG* thing over the Mac --- pre-emptive multitasking! In fact, Apple doesn't even know if they'll ever put that feature in any future versions of its System software for the Mac's. Maybe Atari can capitalise on that in its Falcon ads, if any. I would also assume that MultiTOS pretty easily outdoes the Amiga's n/i/g/h/t/m/a/r/e/ so-called "multitasking OS." Uh-oh! I'm not getting optimistic now, am I??? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 196 Sun Aug 02, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 03:26 EDT A game machine has a much higher potential for profit. Kids will go out and buy a Nintendo Cart a month (if they have the money) A hot game probably does much better than the hottest application. And, I assume, all they have to do is work out the game licensing for the latest platform. They get most of the money then. This is ALL supposition. I don't know. And I'm half joking when I say it's a game machine. But it sure as heck sounds and walks like a duck... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 197 Sun Aug 02, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 09:32 EDT Jim Ness, Since 1 Mb SIMMS are now $25, you might get the $40/Meg price that you want after all. Ben White ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 198 Sun Aug 02, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 10:50 EDT ED -- > They must show off its other strengths, such as music, DTP and graphics. I couldn't agree more, but _who_ is going to do the showing? With the dwindling dealer base, how are folks gonna see this stuff? With talk of getting the Falcon into mass market stores like Sears or Circut City Atari will have to rely on the sales people on the floor to show it off. Scarry thought! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 199 Sun Aug 02, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 14:25 EDT Has anyone seen the "ATARI-ADVANTAGE" topic 5, Category 15. Someone posted the Falcon-specs. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 200 Sun Aug 02, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 15:21 EDT Ringo, the specs are available for download too :) -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 201 Sun Aug 02, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 16:12 EDT Ben White - I doubt that, even with lower SIMM prices, I'll be seeing $40/meg. There has to be a reason for the lack of SIMM slots. If there is just no room for that particular memory config, then we'll see Atari and 3rd party sources making boards, probably surface mounted boards. And, the low volume custom stuff is ALWAYS expensive. If I see $350 for a 4 meg board, I won't be surprised. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 202 Sun Aug 02, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 21:09 EDT Jim, just call HITECH...$22 per SIMM, 80ns. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 203 Sun Aug 02, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 23:54 EDT >> They must show off its other strengths, such as music, DTP and graphics. > >I couldn't agree more, but _who_ is going to do the showing? With the >dwindling dealer base, how are folks gonna see this stuff? With talk >of getting the Falcon into mass market stores like Sears or Circut >City Atari will have to rely on the sales people on the floor to show >it off. Scarry thought! D.D., I meant advertisements and marketing information must show off its other strengths. And I wholeheartedly agree it's going to be extremely difficult for people to actually witness the Falcon in action because there are very few dealers to show it. Actually, I doubt the majority of the ST dealers in existance would even be able to capably demonstrate the Falcon. I look at how one of my local dealers "demonstrates" his STs and I shudder. Isn't this what the Aegis symposium is supposed to do, educate dealers? But only a select few of the developers attend this meeting. The Falcon can definitely be sold without people seeing it in person. The computer can be marketed through well-crafted magazine advertisements. I mean, the stuff like the Lynx ads, not the music ads in Electronic Musician (although I bet those ads are specifically tailored for that market). Television isn't even needed, although I know many people would love to see their dream machine on television. :^) >S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:43 EDT > >I just thought of something interesting... The Falcon (w/ MultiTOS) >will have one *BIG* thing over the Mac --- pre-emptive multitasking! >In fact, Apple doesn't even know if they'll ever put that feature in >any future versions of its System software for the Mac's. Maybe Atari >can capitalise on that in its Falcon ads, if any. I would also assume >that MultiTOS pretty easily outdoes the Amiga's n/i/g/h/t/m/a/r/e/ >so-called "multitasking OS." Uh-oh! I'm not getting optimistic now, >am I??? RE: pre-emptive multitasking. Deja vu in the latest MacUser. They have a story on the PowerPC (Apple's, IBM's, and Motorola's bastard) and how it's going to revolutionize the world, cure world hunger, eliminate the debt, etc. The subtitle is "Where No Mac Has Gone Before." In the last paragraph on the second page, it reads, "The new system will still be System 7, but it will be architected ['architected?' How about 'designed?' Noun -> verb, "bad move, Jordan."] differently from today's system. Among the benefits: Programs will run in the background more smoothly, and when an application crashes, the whole system won't crash with it." All I got to say is that if Atari doesn't capitalize, we're all doomed. Not just Atari and us ST users, but the future computer world as well. "DOS or Mac. Just say no." In terms of marketing the Falcon, I'd like to see a two-level campaign. One level can target the game, non-technical market with flashy graphics, like the Lynx is marketed. The other level I'd like to see hard-hitting, comparison ads, putting the Falcon up against Mac's and PC's, exactly like they did with the 1040ST in the early years -- mention and show images of high-quality applications, like Calamus SL and Chronos. Use lots of numbers and statistics. Mention the pre-emptive multitasking, hardware scrolling, 16-bit DAC sound (or whatever it is), all that jazz. Use lots of juicy jargon. Then of course, make some machines so people can buy them. Or have "we" done that already? :^) Oh, and Steve, I hate it when you /e/m/p/h/a/s/i/z/e/ like that. :^) It forces me to read between the lines, and I don't like doing that figuratively or literally. :^) /Emphasizing/ or =emphasizing= or _emphasizing_ or *emphasizing* or EMPHASIZING is sufficient. :^) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 204 Mon Aug 03, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:51 EDT SFRT-ASST - But who's going to pay $700-$1200 for a game machine (other than the people who wasted $550-$600 on a Neo-Geo, that is )? The Falcon supposedly has the 15-pin STe controller ports as well as the 'standard' 9-pin Atari ports. MUSE - "might allow other [expensive and hard-to-find] RAM expansion devices," you mean. That's my main argument against it, and unless Atari puts an authorised dealer back on everyone's block, that's the way it's going to be (although it may still be expensive no matter what). M.FARMER2 - Exactly! Don't listen to third-party developers saying that this is a good thing as they will always defend something that benefits them. S.WINICK - Considering the state of things, there may as well be only "one (1) Atari dealer in the whole U.S.A." RJROBINSON - The problem is that it probably adds up to more $$$ and, quite possibly, added difficulty in getting RAM upgraded for the user. I hardly call that an intelligent decision. I don't have a problem with SIMM's on a daughterboard rather than on the motherboard, but I think it's a *HUGE* mistake not to have SIMM-based RAM expansion. J.RIGHTER - Yeah, I just read the 'AA Contents' text file and was also disappointed that it only offers the 32,768 color mode at 320x200 and only 640x480x256 (i.e. it looks like Atari's again releasing a product that looked great in the planning stage but that's several months behind 'the competition' by the time it's released). By that, I mean that most clone systems are now coming with 800x600 and 1024x768 resolution graphics with 256 colors and up to 32,768 colors at 640x480 resolution. Hopefully, the *real* Falcon's coming next year will offer comparable specs. However, since *MOST* IBM clone software doesn't handle anything about 640x480x256 (most IBM games only run in 320x200x256) right now, it's not all that big of a loss. E.KRIMEN - If they *DO* market it partially as a game machine, I hope they don't overemphasize it because nobody's gonna want to pay $700+ (or round- abouts) for a game machine. I hope they'll just mention and show the gaming side 'in passing' after they mention the serious stuff. J.NESS - Well, I spent two years looking at a 640x200x4 13" TV screen. Luckily, I picked up a SC1224 for $25 and saw a much clearer 640x200x4 screen. I'd also be thrilled to switch to 640x480x256. Obviously, you're not going to do that much multitasking w/ 1MB RAM. I don't think MultiTOS needs all that much "elbow room" and should work well with as little as 4MB. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 205 Mon Aug 03, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:29 EDT The Aegis symposium was the best thing ATARI ever did. I for one hope they will see how important a tool this is and hold anotherone as soon as the falcon is ready. But this time I would suggest that ATARI bring all the developers and dealers who might not come for expense reasons at Atari's expense. Put every one in the same hotel and hold all the meetings at the same hotel. To me this is the kernal or heart of re-starting the declining market. We have gone to great lengths to "educate" our dealers in the basic use of our products. It is a wounder we sall any- thing at all. I have visited stores that we sent color brochours and expensive syquest demo disk to. They had the color advertisin in the back room and did not have a system up and running to show our software. at least with our products, live running animations are a bear minimum to interest and sell the users. Un less the dealers see and learn the products they will never sell anything. The dealers can also teach the developers what they need to help sell the products. I can state with out hesitation that the contacts we made at the last symposium are the best thing that ever happened. We met and spoke to people we had only herd about. now when we make a call we are talking to some one we have met, not just a name in a directory or voice on the phone. Lee ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 206 Mon Aug 03, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 02:45 EDT If Atari starts a comparison they're dead. If I were IBM or Apple I'd buy the next two pages (or four) have a image of a balance scale with Atari software titles on one side and Mac or DOS titles on the other. Caption: You decide. Subcaption. This ad created on a ___ with _________software. "Who would spend $1000+ on a game machine?" Good question. I hope there's an answer. If they make a kick-butt computer with a couple of must-have kick-butt games they'll probably sell more systems than a "serious" computer targeted at MIDI musicians of home DTP users. My guess. Once again, I'll beleive the computer when I see it a my local computer store The Computer Network. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 207 Mon Aug 03, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 11:58 EDT If you used to Calamus SL to create the Ad, you'd be surprised at the response you'd get. :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 208 Mon Aug 03, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 18:23 EDT Just wondering, all things being equal, the appropriate MMU's, blitter chip, fast RAM etc., how much of an approximate speed increase is a 68030/16mhz chip compared to a 68000/8mhz chip? Thanks, -Chuck- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 209 Mon Aug 03, 1992 J.DOUGLAS5 [JimD] at 22:47 EDT The problem with the 'falcon' as a game machine is that the vast majority of games being produced today are for MS-DOS. Not much point in makeing or buying a game machine for which there are no games is there. JimD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 210 Mon Aug 03, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 22:59 EDT Ben, I still get tha SCARY feeling that ATARI wants to be in the memory business.. That cheap $795 price tag could sore to over $1100 for a fully memorized Falcon... but... the Falcon does SO many nice things.. it would take around $2000 to equip a similar based with all tese new Video and Sound features.. sooo wadaya gona do... It seems to me me if they'd just progress behind the confines of that 1040e case it would make it nicer for everyone... WOW.... WOW.... After re-reading the Atari Advantage Falcon article I AM IMPRESSED!! and Iv'e been the biggest skeptic around here for awhile... what really impressed me was the UPGRADABILITY of the system!! (2) processor slots... External DSP connections!!! parallel processing between the 030 and the 20mips DSP... while the DSP is manipulating and preparing 3D images the 030 is simultaneously preparing the ground work to display them... and might as well throw in some true CD sound while your at it!!! WHOOPS... add some special efects by display all this to the background of a LASERDISK StarWars flick..while your at it! All this and it still runs PAGESTREAM.... wait I feel the BIG ONE really comin' this time.. H O W C A N T H E Y D O I T . . . F O R T H E P R I C E ? ? I really wonder if even BYTE mag has the smarts to do justice to this one... Here's hopin' it all true.... Jerry ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 211 Mon Aug 03, 1992 J.COLE18 [John Cole] at 23:04 EDT Lee, Doesnt the end of September seem like a good time to hold a Falcon030 Ageis Symposium? :-) I still want them to hold it in New Orleans! EVERYONE would come to that one! John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 212 Mon Aug 03, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 23:16 EDT Ok, don't everyone jump on me, but why would I want to buy a Falcon instead of an LC? From what I could tell from the AA article the 700-999 dollar price tag did NOT include a hard-drive or monitor. Add in a decent quality multi- sync. and high speed HD and you're close to the cost of an LC which has tons of close-to-ST-ease-of-use software. I think the LC has been upgraded to use the 030 at 16mhz also. Someone convince me so I can go out and convince my Mac-friends! :) Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------