==================================================================== (C) 1992 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== ************ Topic 20 Thu Aug 01, 1991 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] (Forwarded) Sub: Atari "Falcon" Project The August 1991 ST Format quoted Sam Tramiel mentioning "the Falcon project" and other new ST-based machines other than the ST Book and STylus. They're not rumors if big Sam mentioned them personally! 226 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 2 Sat Jun 13, 1992 T.FERREIRA at 02:08 EDT FALCON NO 1040 CASE, USE MEGA STYLE!!!!!PLEASE... S ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 3 Sat Jun 13, 1992 T.FERREIRA at 02:11 EDT I would like the Falcon to have the old Mega style case. It looks great, professional, and great for the monitor to sit on. The 1040 case is to game like. Either way, please have a detachable keyboard. Surprise us dedicated Atari users. Make the Falcon look, feel, and perform like no other Atari. Tom Ferreira ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 4 Sat Jun 13, 1992 E.JOLLEY at 03:46 EDT I don't understand why the Falcon shouldn't replace the TT. I think it's a good idea anyway. The TT seems to be a flop as far as software. And as far as hardware, the Falcon beats it on most counts, especially graphics and sound. The only place the TT might be ahead is it's clock speed and it's card slot. Could somebody explain how or why the Falcon isn't going to replace the TT? I keep on hearing this but I don't get it. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 5 Sat Jun 13, 1992 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 04:04 EDT My understanding is that the first Falcon is a new _Low_End_ machine. Certainly, it could replace the TT in terms of hardware, but at the (never mind the rest of that sentence. It didn't make sense) Anyway, It is the new low end, hence the one-piece case and no bus slot, etc. The rumors suggest that an 040 based machine will come out later, and that will replace the TT as the high end machine. You could buy the first one to replace a TT (ah, here it comes) but it might be better to wait for the 040 machine, and leave the first one to people who don't want to spend more than $1200 on a machine by Atari. Let them buy it, thinking it a "Game Machine", but if they use it at all they will discover sooner or later that it is more than that. I now believe that a one piece design (a la Mac Classic or "Classic" ST) is good for a low- end, one that is more portable than lugging around cpu, keyboard, monitor, second Hard disk, etc. Personally, I'll wait for the 040 to complement my Mega STE, which I will keep even when the new ones come out. (Anyone who remembers my first post will note that I said I was not going to buy the Mega, and was going to wait for the Falcon... Well, I changed my mind...) Chris ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 6 Sat Jun 13, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 19:40 EDT E.JOLLEY...What gave you the idea that the TT was a big flop in terms of software? Nathan @ ISD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 7 Sat Jun 13, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 20:06 EDT Jerry Pournelle was just saying in his RT that the one-piece case and the rhomboidal function keys produces the strong impression in the reviewer and the consumer that it is just a toy. Even though it isn't really one. Bob Brodie has indicated on the AEO echo that either there is no 040 machine in preparation, or that it is going to be quite some time before they have one ready for release. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 8 Sat Jun 13, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:39 EDT Does the use of the 1040 case make necessary the use inclusion of only 1 serial port, 1 ACSI port, 1 parallel port, and none of the nifty stereo ports and SCSI port, r/f port, etc, etc. If it does have them, then this would require a new tooling for the case. A new case would have been a good chance to make a truly "NEW" case. Unless, Atari was trying to save costs be noting that only the lower half of the case needed to be redone to add ports. This would be the ultimate in cheapness. Don't get me wrong. I'd LOVE to have a ___ONE PIECE___ Falcon. Provided, of course, that it was no bigger in size than a standard PC keyboard. The size of the STBOOK proves it CAN be done. Think of it... Atari, the market leader in "Boxless" computers. All you need is a keyboard and a monitor!!! [ ] Check here if you think this is a cool idea! (Too bad I can't copyright an idea. Just remember to give me credit: That's Douglas Engel (remember 'e-l' not 'l-e'!! Thanks) See you folks later! _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 9 Sat Jun 13, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 23:53 EDT Thunderbird, Don't worry :-) If Falcon comes in a STe style case, changing things like "port holes" in an existing case mold would be a relatively simple tooling change in a mold insert. // Ron @ Atari Advantage Magazine // ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 10 Sun Jun 14, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 02:22 EDT I hate 1040 style cases. The King didn't have to talk long to convince me to upgrade to a MSTE. You can add very little to the cases, there's no room for a hard drive, the keyboard is wimpy (I love my MSTE keyboard), and, let's face it, it looks like a toy. The NEXT looks like a toy too, but it looks like a fun, very cool, very hip, black toy. "In a world of Corvettes and Porsches, Atari would build a car with fins...." ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 11 Sun Jun 14, 1992 DOUG.W [ICD RT] at 08:05 EDT Thunderbird, There is already a company making PCs housed in the keyboard. --Doug ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 12 Sun Jun 14, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 11:29 EDT I can live without a near-term 040. As Fast Tech and Gadgets by Small have shown, you can make an 030 run VERY fast. If the first machine is a slow 030, as we've speculated, and the second machine is a fast 030, it'll still be a good product. Heck, if Atari survives long enough to get a second machine out, we'll all be in clover. That would mean that the first machine was successful, and that their finances were reasonable healthy. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 13 Sun Jun 14, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 13:25 EDT Kene, The WILL be an option for an internal 2.5" IDE HD. I'd bet money that they change the keyboard, and I'd also bet the function keys are square. Remember, Atari isn't going into this thinking "lets see how stupidly we can design a computer". They've caught enough flak over the ST keyboard that they understand it needs a change. I'd also bet it costs less than $900, or $1200 with internal HD. Ben White ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 14 Sun Jun 14, 1992 E.JOLLEY at 14:15 EDT Nathan, Well, it is just my humble uneducated opinion that for as long as the TT has been out, it is badly lacking in software that works on it. Most big software companies do make there products TT compatible, that's true, but it seems that the ST downward compatibility thing is a joke. There's also a shortage of big software companies for the Atari period (yeah, I know what else is new). And when the TT came out, I don't think they gained any developers. But if the Falcon comes out, and it's a wow machine, we might get somebody to join the bandwagon from the outside. I don't know that much about the computer industry, especially the way Atari works, but I wouldn't ever buy a TT, but I might buy Falcon, because it might just have a future. But if they're doing this 1040 case deal, they better put one heck of a keyboard in it and get rid of those slanted function keys, cause I'm never going back to that old mushyboard again. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 15 Sun Jun 14, 1992 CONNOR at 18:11 EDT Okay folks, time for another bulletin from the nice people at Atari (Canada). I called them last week and got an update. What I was told, by a member of their technical staff, was that the first Falcon would be in the 1040 style case. It would be "Way under a $1000." (Canadian funds) and may have a hard drive, but he wasn't sure, oh yeah, no expansion slots. Sounds like an entry level computer to me. The second Falcon will be in a tower case, with monitor resolution "at least as good as SVGA, maybe better." It will have lots of expansion ports. Now this sounds like a high end machine, if Atari is on the ball with customer feedback, then all those little things consumers have pointed out to them over the years will be fixed. I would love to see the Falcon be a standard SCSII machine, like the TT (the ports that is). In the past Atari Canada has told me that they are going to international standard SCSII ports, etc. This coupled with the new machines may mean that Atari is set to come in to market with a machine that will compare very favourably with the IBM's and Mac's. ... Connor ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 16 Sun Jun 14, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 20:41 EDT I believe it when I can buy it at my favorite computer store. Or has the tower TT with Unix been released while I was asleep? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 17 Mon Jun 15, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 00:08 EDT From Usenet. Have someone pass you the salt if you so desire. :^) Enjoy. Article 27181 (3 more) in comp.sys.atari.st: From: elendir@quasar.enst.fr (Vincent Habchi) Subject: Falcon (Fresh news) Keywords: Hop. Message-ID: <2163@quasar.enst.fr> Date: 11 Jun 92 09:19:07 GMT Organization: Telecom-Paris, France Lines: 22 Hello. I am back to give you some new infos regarding the Falcon. However, I signed yesturday a non-disclosure agreement with Atari, so I am not gonna give you many things :-( What I am authorized to say is : - The sound system has been modified. It now features full 16-bits DAC *and ADC*, stereo. The "RASCAL" processor has been trashed. This has been replaced by a very clever system, I can't say more but it's very great. - The paddle ports of STE are back, and this time, Atari wants games to use them instead of "standard" joysticks. - The machine is full of custom chips, to reduce cost. WD 1772 controler is being eliminated, replaced by a custom. So is the Yamaha sound chip. - There are now Guidelines for developement. And... more to come... End of article 27181 (of 27184)--what next? [npq] ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 19 Mon Jun 15, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:39 EDT According to Bob Brodie, the Falcon/030 (or whatever it'll end up being called) specs will be released "quite soon." From some of the rumors I've heard, although the 'Falcon/030' is a one-piece unit like the 1040, there are some design changes in the case including a new improved keyboard (I hope, and if so, FINALLY!!! ) and rearrangement of some of the ports. About the keyboard... I even heard that the function keys are different (i.e. not the stupid slanted flat keys like on the 1040). Although I'm a bit excited about getting to see the Falcon (hopefully) sometime soon, I'm becoming more and more weary about it as time passes on. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 20 Mon Jun 15, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 00:54 EDT Kene, Tower TTs do in fact exist. 3K in Germany sells them. As for Atari Unix, that exists too. I've seen it. It's been on sale to developers since last November (and the standards to be a Unix developer are VERY lax, any advanced user could buy it). Ben White ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 21 Mon Jun 15, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 01:11 EDT The 1040 case should have the Mega STE/TT keyboard. The old 1040 keyboard stinks. It should also have all the ports except maybe the expansion ports. If they go IDE, I can see a need for an IDE to SCSI Host Adapter unless, they have an SCSI port. It would neat if they included an IDE pass-through and an SCSI port. The only thing I do not like about IDE is that it goes back to the seperate controller/drive method. It is not all-in-one like SCSI. This does result in cheaper drives and it is supposedly faster. This is all second hand info on IDE so if I have made a mistake, someone please correct me. I would prefer every Falcon have a seperate keyboard. Even if the entry level system did not include all that the high end machine does, at least have a seperate keyboard. I also like the way they did the Mega STE. They did not have a label on it saying Mega STE 1 or Mega STE 2, etc. They just called it the Mega STE. The deal with having a 520 STE and 1040 STE did not make sense. If they go the route of 520/1040 style case, just have ONE name and not include the amount of memory. They could have came out with an "Atari STE" and left it at that. The user could then decide what flavor it was. I actually like the Mega STE/TT style case. The only thing I would have liked to see on my Mega STE was a fan in the area of the hard drive bay. Although I have been told that most hard drives today can handle the heat, I don't like my hard drive getting as hot as it does now. The one fan in the power supply does not cut it. I feel the cooler the hard drive stays, the longer it will live. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 22 Mon Jun 15, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 01:17 EDT I believe they exist when _I_ >>could<< buy them at my favorite computer store. The MSTE was such a pleasant surprise. I didn't know about it and the King decided I needed one. I walked into the store ready to buy a syquest and upgrade my memory (thinking about an accelerator later) and The King points to a box on the floor and said "You don't want to upgrade. You want a Mega STE." I like my MSTE a lot. But it still hasn't lived up to all it was designed for. I can't complain. I have a functional computer. But excuse me if I don't jump up and down for product that hasn't even been officially announced by Atari. When (or if) they announce it I may raise an eyebrow. I may even buy one. Do any of you people thrilled by this so far officialy un-announced hardware know what operating system it will use? MultiTos? 3.06? Will it be open? How much memory? Will it, in fact, have fins? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 23 Mon Jun 15, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 04:00 EDT If I waited until I could walk into a computer store and buy a computer before I believed it existed, I wouldn't believe in this MegaSTE I'm typing on right now! I never actually saw one, let alone a STE until I opened the box this one came in! I'm the type of person who likes to have a "hands on" experience with something before buying it, but with the MSTE, people here on GEnie's opinions and magazine reviews were enough to convince me (along with a great price on a used machine). With the "Falcon", which my nameless source says will not be it's name, I'll have to do the same. You can give me all the specs you want, but they don't really mean squat until you actually see how they are implemented. Not having an Atari dealer in your town can be a real frustration. I'm still wondering what the reason for a one-piece unit that will be "obvious and satisfying to all" is! I can't think of _one_ myself. Kene - Hasn't it already been officially announced that the new machines will indeed use MultiTOS? Seeing as it was designed to run on 030 machines, they would seem a perfect match. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 24 Mon Jun 15, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 12:40 EDT That's the problem, Mick. As far as I know the machines (and maybe even Multitos) hasn't been _officailly_ announced. That not even touching the hardware and software that has been announced. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 25 Mon Jun 15, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 17:30 EDT I was surprised at post #15 from CONNOR. To the best of my knowledge, Atari was not making any kind of announcements about "a Falcon". As I do know the Atari Canada GM, Geoff Earle well enough to call, I did so and asked him what's up re: the comments I read from Connor. Geoff was surprised to say the least. He called in his staff and asked them if anyone had been speaking to anyone about the Falcon as Atari Canada is definitely NOT talking about the Falcon at this time. His staff, en masse, assured him that none of them had this conversation with Connor or anyone else. Geoff asked me to post a one-line message from him that Atari Canada made "no such statement". I am covered by a non-disclosure. I am not unfamiliar with the next generation of Atari computers and I am also not unaware of all of the speculation that has been going on. :-) I don't know if Connor was speculating, adding weight to it by using the Atari name or what. I do know that no way Atari Canada made any statement whatsoever on price or style or specs according to the Boss. :-) Nathan @ ISD (down the road and around the corner from Atari Canada.) :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 27 Mon Jun 15, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 21:55 EDT Nathan, One of my local ST dealers once asked me where all the TT software was. He thought it was a flop because there wasn't any software "for" it (whatever that means). I think I was the only one who ever turned the machine on, and I haven't been in his store for months. Of course, I brought in some GIFs and Noisetracker mods so there was at least something on the machine, but I bet that the computer just sits there. Actually, he did have Calamus 1.09n and Pagestream 2.0 on there, but no one ever touched them. There wasn't a printer connected to the machine. I think he's waiting for Atari to advertise and he's expecting the computer to sell it itself, on its own. :^) He thinks it's a DOS machine that's going to sell itself. =-=-=-=-= I agree with Ben, although I think his prices may be a bit high. :^) Ben, where do you think they're going to put the joystick ports this time? :^) =-=-=-=-= E.Jolley (what? no nickname?), What do you use your ST for? There's tons of software for the TT. I wish I had one. I'd put it to very good use. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 28 Mon Jun 15, 1992 CONNOR at 23:00 EDT Nathan -- I called and asked for the technical department, as I had a tech question about monitors. The person I talked to told me about some other monitor/graphics stuff for the MEGA STE. I said that maybe I'd just wait until the Falcon comes out in the fall, and the tech went on about the Falcon as I said in my last post. I have heard many rumours about the Falcon, and what I have posted I have heard from people at Atari Canada while enquiring about other things. I was not "speculating" in any sense. It seems that certain people I have talked to at Atari Canada have been talking when they should not be. I assumed when I called and asked about whether the Falcon was going to be out in the Fall as rumoured, that whatever they told me were things that could be released to the public. If my post has caused any problem or misunderstanding, I apologize, but what I have posted previously I have heard from people at Atai Canada. It appears to me that someone told Mr. Earle that they had not had a conversation with anyone about the Falcon to save their job, or other action by their boss. ... Connor ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 30 Tue Jun 16, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:02 EDT Another thing that worries me is that a lot of people DON'T want a 'one-piece' 1040-type unit and may wait until a full desktop-style Falcon is available, which could cause 'less than expected' initial sales of the Falcon. I hate to think what that could lead to. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 31 Tue Jun 16, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 08:41 EDT Ed...Dealers like you described above have been the very bane of my existence. :-) (sigh) Connor...I am not surprised to read your response. :-) I should probably have qualified what I typed yesterday by saying "No OFFICIAL word has ever been forthcoming..." etc.. :-) Nathan @ ISD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 32 Tue Jun 16, 1992 MIKE.SCHUETZ at 11:26 EDT And here's another rumour about the bird that officially doesn't exist.. Word has been sent out to the masters of the independent Fuji- Software- and Hardware guilds (or should I say to the few that still have not fallen victim to the big blue forces of the world-computer-emipre).... they are to be summoned for a secret gathering on the neutral ground called Britania to discuss the details of a 'no-details' bird. Will be interesting to see if the bird actually can turn into a phoenix that can rise out of the ashes... or if the dust of time will keep'm on the ground. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 33 Tue Jun 16, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 19:20 EDT Several friends also ask me where all the "TT" software is. I tell them to look at DynaCAD, Calamus, Pagestream, etc. Of course, he means game software. See, he's just a gamer, and he wants a clone because they seem to be the new game machines. (go figure) I still wish Atari would put this 030 Falcon machine in the two-piece Mega STE/TT case. Okay, fine, make it black with yellow markings if they want, but PLEASE use a standard case design with a separate keyboard. So help me though, if the Falcon comes out with a LAME keyboard, I'm going to bail before Atari sinks. ;) Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 34 Tue Jun 16, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 20:10 EDT Ed, I said "LESS THAN" $900, or $1200 with internal HD. I'll bet they leave the mouse port and joystick #1 where they are. With the Falcon's rumored new keyboard design they might change though. Rumor has it that it'll have the analog joystick ports, and developers will be encouraged to actually use them. I also hear there'll be a set of "Software Guidelines" for Falcon developers. Rob, I'd vote for Black with any-other-color-than-yellow markings. I hate yellow. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 35 Tue Jun 16, 1992 CONNOR at 21:03 EDT Nathan -- No problem, I wasn't too sure about what you were saying, so I just tried to cover all the bases . It is a bit bothersome when one hears all these rumours about a new machine, and there is now hard evidence to sink your teeth into. I just wish Atari would hurry up and let us know what the scoop is on wheter there is going to be a new machine or not, and when it is going to be available if there is a new machine. I _need_ to upgrade in September and want to know whether I should get a MEGA STE or a Falcon. I'm using my 520 STfm, and it simply cannot handle the work I do. Upgrading the STfm is not worth it, it's cheaper for me to buy a new machine. ...Connor ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 36 Wed Jun 17, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 00:45 EDT AMEEEENNNN.... THEY BURNT US ON THE CLASS "B" TT... AND... FIFTHCRUSADE, COUNT ME OUT FOR YELLOW ALSO... HAVE YOU SEEN THE UGLY CHARCOAL AND YELLOW MONO MONITOR? ... I SURE HOPE THAT FALCON IS NOT MADE OF THE SAME QUALITY AS THE THEIR NEW MONITOR.... I SURE HOPE ATARI REALIZES THERE IS A THING CALLED DEVELOPMENT LAG! BY THe TIME THE FALCON GETS HERE THERE WILL BE 50MHZ 486SX SYSTEMS FOR THE SAME PRICE! (486SX IS 70% FASTER THAN THE 386/32) NOW IF THE FALCON IS A 030 32MHZ WITH SUPER DUPER VGA (TRUE COLOR)THEY COULD STILL BLOW THE COMPETITION AWAY... BUT MUST HAVE SEPARATE KEYBOARD DESIGN AS THIS IS THE STANDARD FOLKS ARE BUYING.... JERRY RICHTER ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 37 Wed Jun 17, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 01:22 EDT If you know who these people are, then please let us know. We need to close up these leaks to prevent problems. Closing a leak doesn't mean firing people, it means getting things under control. If you have information, please let us know. We would like to make sure that users get the _correct_ info at the appropriate time. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 38 Wed Jun 17, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:43 EDT R.WATSON15 - Quantum just announced some new SCSI/SCSI-2 2.5" drives, so Atari's not really forced to use IDE drives as an internal drive for the Falcon/030 (if it even has an option for one). M.POCHE - Good point! If I waited until I could walk into a computer store to by a 1040STE, I wouldn't have the one I have right here either. It's too bad most people have to travel hundreds of miles in order to see an Atari dealer (especially ones that STOCK Atari machines!). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 39 Wed Jun 17, 1992 CONNOR at 02:22 EDT John -- I don't know who the actual people are, but when I called it was for technical information ie: hard drives, monitors, disk drives, etc. I assume it was the tech/hardware dept due to the nature of the questions. I hope this helps you in finding your leak, but whatever you do, I don't want to know about it. I don't want to find out that someone was fired or severely repremanded, I don't want to have to think about someone getting fired, etc because they said something to me. That being said, I do realize that the leaks are a problem. From a users point of view, there is _so_ much rumoured, and so little Atari is saying that it makes it difficult for me at least. I want to get a new computer, and I want to stay with Atari, but I concerned that this Falcon may be what I need and want, and if in September I buy a whole MEGA setup when I could have gotten the Falcon if I had waited, I'm going to be seriously annoyed. I personally would be very happy with a date that was within a couple of weeks, not sometime between now and Xmas. Being a student, I can't afford to buy a computer every year, and my 520 STfm is ancient and in need of replacement. Sorry for rambling on at such length, I'm sure you've heard it all before. ... Connor ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 40 Wed Jun 17, 1992 S.SAMUELS [ICE CREAM] at 03:58 EDT Boy...this is turning into a very amusing topic! %^) It even got Jerry R. to write something! Hi Jerry...how goes it? You know, I've always wondered where "they" (the big 'they' in the sky) come up with these great new names. Like for instance, who thought up "Ninja" and "Samurai" for those motorcycle names? I mean, Ninja and Samurai were basically professional killers, ...see what I mean? Along the same lines, I've been waiting for Honda to release its latest car. Designed especially for obnoxious drivers, called the 'Discord'. Let's see now..."the FALCON"...Hmmmm,...isn't that a bird of prey? Gee, if there will be several models, perhaps one could be named the "Owl" for people that only use it at night!? What will it be expected to do? Swoop down and eat up the competition????? This case, that case, this keyboard, that keyboard....shoot! These are questions????? Wake up and smell the Napalm! Where will the ports go? Gee fellas, on my TT the 'socket' to plug in the keyboard is so well though out that it requires the cord to run diagonally across the table top. I'll bet that took several degrees in design and engineering. You know, after several years of fighting my way into and out of various Atari computer cases, with all the cute little bent sheet metal tabs, and screws into plasic threads, etc., I could imagine that there must be a better way. One of my pals builds IBM clones. Nice metal cases with two push buttons that pop the top open. Lots of room inside to add, subtract and/or re-arrange things. Put in an internal modem, a couple more drives, some special video cards, etc.??? No problemo! But now why be difficult, when with just a little more effort you can become impossible?! Maybe the way to go it like the original Mac's but moreso. Put the keyboard, CPU, AND the Monitor in a solidly moulded one piece case of pink plastic with no way to get inside. Put a warning on the front that if anyone tries to, the whole works will self- destruct or at least bio-degrade! Yeah...that's the ticket! ....disposeable computers. Use 'em once and throw 'em away! I like it, I like it! John@Atari,...the trouble is that by the time you guys deem the time to be 'appropriate' too many people have gotten interested in something more appropriate. As far as the "_correct_" info goes....well I'll just have to let the developers and long gone dealers address that subject. ice cream......and you should too! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 41 Wed Jun 17, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 10:28 EDT Not to worry John (TOWNS). It was Atari Canada and it has been addressed by Geoff! :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 42 Wed Jun 17, 1992 G.T.GRAY [Gary Gray] at 21:21 EDT If the Falcon sells at all well, somebody will make a third party case and keyboard kit for it. See the Falcon mutate before the vapor condenses. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 43 Wed Jun 17, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 22:46 EDT The part that's scary is that it sounds so true and we casually accept that Atari will blow it and some third party will save the day. I'm having fun playing "Casandra." What about the Atari ST 'expansion box' mentioned _officially_ in the 1985 Byte magazine article? Okay, so it's supposed to come out 3rd party. RSN. Just after it passes FCC. (that was low. I feel so ashamed.) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 44 Wed Jun 17, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 22:49 EDT Stephen, Talk about cases.... I think the Mac IIcx/ci/Quadra 700 cases are the best that I've seen in terms of getting in and out. One screw, pop a few flexible tabs, and the hood's open. Access to everything is right there, and all the main components (power supply, hard drive, cards) just slide out. The cases take up very little desk space too. Just a cube. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 45 Wed Jun 17, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 23:53 EDT John: Since you obviously can't give us any specs on the machine, can you at least tell us when a new machine will be announced? (i.e. at what show this year/next/year after) or something like that? Like Connor said, he wants a new machine by September, and is about to get a Mega STE. If I were in his shoes, and ended up getting one, only to have a new, much nicer machine be announced the following week, I'd be pissed enough to drop the thing out the window and go get an Amiga or Mac or something. Meanwhile, I already have a Mega STE, and since this new machine will knock its resale value through the floor, I'm not worried. I'm waiting for an 040 machine, if one comes out before I end up leaving too. Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 52 Thu Jun 18, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 22:42 EDT Zip, Yeah, I know, I know. :^) Don't worry. I only like their cases and keyboards from time to time. Oh, and then there's Microsoft Word. Well, that's about it. Cases, keyboards (sort of), and Word. Pixel Paint Professional and Studio/32 are pretty cool, too, though. :^) But who can afford these things?! =-=-=-= Stephen, So true. One begins to ponder that maybe the person that designed the MegaSTE/TT case tried TOO hard. :^) Atari, just hire Frog Design and be done with it. They'll tell you to put the damned thing in a box with a few indented lines around it. It'll look great! (NOTE: no sarcastic smiley here.) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 53 Fri Jun 19, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:18 EDT CONNOR - Well, if Atari were going to release a new machine soon, it would kinda be in their best interest NOT to mention it so that people will still buy their current machines. SFRT-ASST - Don't feel ashamed about the truth. ============================================================================ The following is a repost of a previous message since Jeff here doesn't even like asterisked profanity (edit is enclosed in brackets): FIFTHCRUSADE - I'd hate yellow on black as well. How about white and/or light blue on black (w/ red pin-striping ). CONNER - I already decided a few months ago that I wasn't going to upgrade any further (no TOS 2.06, accelerator boards, etc.) until the new machines come out because if they look like they're going to be a 'failure,' I'm planning on bailing on Atari and I don't want to sink anymore money into my current system if I'm going to be dumping it in the near future. I've already sold off a lot of my software and haven't bought anything new for quite some time since I'm not sure I'll be using any of it in the near future, either. I feel kinda bad that I'm not doing anything to 'benefit' the Atari community by supporting developers/dealers/etc., but there just doesn't seem to be any future for the Atari platform at present. Hopefully (i.e. if Atari doesn't do a royal f[oul]- up like they did with the ST), the Falcon machines will produce a respectable userbase and thus draw more support from more developers (not to mention from Atari! ). J.RICHTER - A 25MHz 68040 is approximately 15% faster than a 50MHz 80486 (that's based on the performance of the Mac Quadra machines versus '486-based PC's, and the Falcon should be somewhat faster than the Quadra due to the overhead of the Mac's System software). However, that's for the Falcon/040 machines. One disadvantage is that '486 chips are less expensive due to the quantity produced. I agree that a 'fast' 030-based system could be comparable (speed-wise) to a '486SX, but ANY 680x0-based system would be preferable over ANY c/r/i/p/p/l/e/d/ MS-DOS-based 80x86 system. Hell, I prefer my 8MHz 68000-based STE over a '486 system. I don't really have a problem with the 'entry-level' machine being a one-piece unit, but I know I (and MANY others) want a seperate keyboard design and I think it's a mistake not to offer BOTH and AT THE SAME TIME. But then, Atari's NEVER known what the hell they're doing. TOWNS - "..._correct_ info at the appropriate time." That's a good one, John! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 58 Sat Jun 20, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:26 EDT One thing's for sure... If Atari doesn't make a deal with some major 'specialty' store chains (e.g. Circuit City, etc.), or some other means other than ONLY Atari dealers, to sell their new machines through, we can pretty much write the Falcon off right now. Seriously, if Atari has no outlet for selling these machines, how do they expect to sell any? Even ADVERTISING won't get many people to drive 100-200+ miles to their nearest Atari dealer. The G.E. service agreement, as nebulous as it is, seems to open up the channel for mass marketing for Atari, so let's just hope that's what Atari's set it up for. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 59 Sat Jun 20, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 01:32 EDT All of this WAITING is driving me mad... It's like the night before Christmas, but for SIX MONTHS. When the "Falcon" (ghod I hope they use a different name) is released, Atari had better make a BIG splash. I mean ADVERTISING. Blow some major dough on advertising, head-to-head things showing a "Falcon" running Calamus/PageStream vs. a Mac running Quark and a PC running Ventura (heh, TWDTP 1.02 beats Ventura as far as I'm concerned... boy I hate that). Things like that. If Atari doesn't attract some attention with its computers, we _are_ doomed as far as support and software go... -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 60 Sat Jun 20, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 12:23 EDT Or, in other words, if we acknowledge that the new computers are good enough to compete (which they are in my opinion) there still remains the fact that they must be "professionally" launched in North America. Atari understands this as well as we do. If they do not launch the product "professionally" it is because they have chosen not to, not because they do not have the talent or the resources to do so. And if they choose not to (time will tell) then why would they bother having a computer division at all!! And THAT is the question in my words. :-) Nathan @ ISD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 62 Sat Jun 20, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 17:24 EDT Nathan - You indicate that it is a given, that Atari has the resources to properly launch their new product line. I wonder if their creditors would agree? Done a D & B on Atari lately? I just want them to last long enough to sell me a bug free copy of the new machine we have seen so much about here. I don't care if it's the only edition in existance, as long as I get it (and it runs current software). Selfish, aren't I? -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 63 Sat Jun 20, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 22:15 EDT This IS Category 18, right? :-) Are you under the impression that D & B could procure anything close to an accurate evaluation of Atari's present cash flow, liquidity and assets? :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 64 Sat Jun 20, 1992 R.MONFORT1 at 22:23 EDT Nathan. Has ATARI U.S. ever launch a new product "ProfessionallY"? What is going to happen to the MSTe or the TT? Was the TT not Professional? Are we paying to much money for extra RAM, extra monitors, extra TT? for DTP? What happenned to the " Professional System Group"? We had a one or two shows for the DTP market but I haven't seen others, Goldleaf YES, but not ATARI. Also the ATARI "shows", was Chicago the only one? Glendale was to be the next show. Is ATARI really going under! So are the Falcons going to be a "HOT" hardware that needs third party deverpers to improve the hardware and software area, much like the TTs? So Nathan, currently software FIRST class, TTs are not! Will Falcons match the software? First time posting my point of view. Ringo F. Monfort. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 65 Sat Jun 20, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 23:40 EDT Chris: If Atari continues the way it is, the new machines will receive no advertising or anything, just like the TT. North American users won't know it exists, aside from a two-paragraph writeup by Jerry Pournelle in Byte perhaps. Atari doesn't appear to care about making a machine that the entire country wants, because, as we can already see, they can't even meet the demand of the userbase that they have from NOT advertising. (For some reason I'm in a pessamistic mood right now... I'm not really sure why) ;) Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 66 Sun Jun 21, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 10:56 EDT Nathan - No, D&B or any other credit reporting agency don't concern themselves with today's liquidity. To some extent, they do report assets, in total dollars. However, I am sure that you agree that past and current problems with creditors do have some relationship with liquidity. In any case, I threw out D&B because that info is nearly universally available. There are other tidbits of info which may not be so available, but are still out there. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 67 Sun Jun 21, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:05 EDT I bought my 520ST in December, 1985. I remember sneaking into a local dealer exhibit from Atari in August, 1985, where myself and a friend first saw one. It was on the local news broadcasts ("Atari launches a 'JackIntosh', etc., etc...") and everyone in the industry was amazed by the "Power Without The Price" machine. Local Atarians were launched into a fever pitch and I saved every penny (college student) for 5 months and bought one (then quit all my part time jobs). Then, the machine sat running 1st word and Neo for about 6 months, while I was productive on my 8-bit because there was no software out yet, but that's another story. The real story is that Atari rose up from the ashes of the Warner Fiasco, and missed a brush with chapter 11, to be saved by the savvy of Jack Tramiel. Using the "brush with death (obscurity)" which atari fell into was sheer GENIUS on jack's part. Everyone LOVES the underdog, and because Atari was the underdog, they got quite a heaping serving of free publicity. Atari played the media like a violin, and soon, there were BYTE cover stories, tons of developers, and 4 local dealers. What happened?!?!?!? Atari blew it? Dropped the ball??? Fumbled??? Missed the last second field goal??? Let the easy grounder roll through their legs?????? Ehhhhh. Could be? (In Bugs Bunny voice) I THINK _NOT_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Atari has been pooling it's massive resources waiting to fall into obscurity again. Carefully plotting the demise of Big Blue and Big Fruit. Conserving energy and preparing to strike. Once again to play on it's "failure" as a media hype super comeback!!!!! Essentially, "Playing dead" to "lull the competition into a false sense of security". You know. Just watch. You'll see. The "leak" of the "Falcon" has brought unwanted Attention to the Atari name, thusly ruining the surprise attack planned for the BCS. Now Atari has to play dead even harder and hold back a few months to fall into oblivion again. We users keep ruining it for them by drawing attention. We have got to learn to SHUT UP. And to squelch all those leaks. And then I woke up. _________________________ \hunderbird P.S. I want a "Falcon" with a separate keyboard and expandability. Put me on the waiting list. I've been saving my pennies again. P.P.S. Let me know if you're going to have another one of those gatherings of potential dealers (or was it your distributor that did that arrangement???) heh heh heh. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 68 Mon Jun 22, 1992 D.SMITHRN [Smitty] at 01:06 EDT Ya Know John et All.... I live in the land of the clone makers (San Diego) I just counted the number of "Clone Houses" in ye ol' YP's..... there were over 200 listed merchants..... Some thoughts for the R&D folks on the Falcon Project..... Make this thing expandable using some of the Off the shelf products of the "Clone" persuasion. Set the motherboard up that It CAN be placed in another box without mutation. So that when a person grows in their use/sophistication of their computer that the computer can grow with them. Listen to the average Atari user.... They are still using their first Atari, but modified it as their use for the machine changed. Even the IBM'ers know this.... Don't buy Everything over....just change a few parts. There is money to be made here.... in increments... What money you lose in"new" sales are made up readily with repeat sales..... ohhhh think of it.... Atari Clones.... PAX smitty Yes, I have 3 computers in my house... 1 Atari and 2 Clones..... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 69 Mon Jun 22, 1992 Z-NET [John Nagy] at 03:29 EDT I just had a terrible thought... I haven't heard "rumor" yet about on on-board clock on the new "falcon" or whatever. I hope it has one. In 1992, its a crime for a computer to have to ask its hard drive what time it is. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 70 Mon Jun 22, 1992 B.KING8 [Brien King] at 03:36 EDT Thunderbird - No no no.. you have it all wrong. This is Atari's plan -- As soon as Atari has rid itself of all its existing users it can release its new machine. With the new machine Atari can then start fresh with all new users. Smitty - You know whats ironic? Atari doesn't even have that many dealers NATIONWIDE. Makes you think. Jack could have been so filthy rich by now if he had played his cards right. I guess he doesn't like cards. Brien King BTW: Just because we all scream "We want a DEATCHABLE KEYBOARD" doesn't really mean that we do. Right Atari? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 71 Mon Jun 22, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 10:57 EDT The 040 and 486 chips run neck and neck at a given clock speed, don't be fooled by lousy clone designs. Also, compared to a couple of the Amiga 040 accelerators, the Mac Quadra's are real putt putts. A 50Mhz 486 done well will be twice as fast as a 25Mhz 040 done well. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 72 Mon Jun 22, 1992 R.MONFORT1 at 22:03 EDT Please, don't bring back good memories for all of us. I remember having dealers all over this area "South Bay Area" Southern California. Boy what that fun! We had "Software etc, Federated Groups, Guitar centers, west L.A. music, the software supermarket, a great dealer that had connections with Software etc. all things were great!" But the Megas were late for release, The new AMIGAS were out before the Megas and all things change, The special dealer said good bye to ATARI and Hello to AMIGA, Software etc. stoped selling ATARI software, Federated Group went under, and now we are only left with a small number of dealers. So in that small numbers of dealers the FALCONs will go out with very little Fan fare. I hope that I am 100% wrong in this one. Maybe we will have a large number of new dealers the ones that sell MACs/IBM/AMIGAS! Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 73 Mon Jun 22, 1992 B.DETTERICH at 23:45 EDT Hmmmm. You're comparing 486 execution of broad spectrum code to 040 execution of same functions? Fact is, 50MHz 486 will not keep up with 25MHz 040. If you were correct, re 2X 25MHz 040, we'd have seen a mad rush to 486 UNIX and workstations, but hasn't and won't happen. Maybe when Intel changes memory and goes to full Harvard! Maybe about the time Atari gets into the computer market, tsk, tsk!!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 74 Tue Jun 23, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:25 EDT D.ENGEL - I remember 'the industry' being somewhat gitty about the ST when it was first announced and everyone was somewhat amazed when it first came out. Atari screwed it up somewhere along the line, though, and it wasn't the DRAM shortage that, for some odd reason, lasted 2-3 times as long for Atari than it did for the rest of the industry. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 75 Tue Jun 23, 1992 N.WEINRESS [Norm] at 00:37 EDT Nagy, the Megas have a built-in battery backed clock. Smitty, You'd think the Sunnyvalians would realize that building to the same general specs as the clones would make it cheaper to manufacture. After all, compare the peripheral products of the original ST, at the time of its release, with those of the MAC, for example. Compatiblle floppies, hard drives, modems, printers, etc. were easy to find. Now the PC world has evolved in some respects, but there is still alot of compatible stuff around. However, you must consider that Atari is in the _hardware_ business, and would much prefer that you have to buy from _them_ all your add-ons. They probably look at IBM, trying to maintain a small piece of what was once all theirs, and cringe. They never figured out that having a small percentage of a HUGE pie is better than owning a all of a dwindling crumb. The Ol' Philosopher ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 76 Tue Jun 23, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 02:42 EDT But Norm.... They Don't Sell Any Add-Ons. They don't even offer modems, and I may be mistaken, but they don't even sell the Megafile 30 anymore. Okay, okay... I'll give you the TOS upgrades and the laser printer. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 77 Tue Jun 23, 1992 Z-NET [John Nagy] at 03:37 EDT Norm, I know that. I'm wondering about the "little Falcon". No Atari in the 1040 case has had a clock yet... and it's not in the ever growing list of goodies that are hoped for/expected/leaked/imagined to date. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 78 Tue Jun 23, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 23:38 EDT I can see them showing off the Falcon to a crowd of eager on-lookers. The person demoing the machine mentions that it has 640x480x256color resolution, DSP capabilities, built-in 40meg IDE drive, 1.44meg drive, MultiTOS, standard 4megs of RAM on motherboard with SIMM expansion to 14, and John Nagy hollers from the back of the crowd, "Yeah, but does it have a clock?!" :^) Actually, there's an inaccuracy in the above scenario because John would be at the FRONT of the group, not the back. :^) =I'd= probably be in the back, looking over everyone's shoulder. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 80 Wed Jun 24, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 01:18 EDT Jim, the 040 runs about 1.3 clock cycles per instruction average. I didn't think the 486 was even close to that. Maybe its just my anti (IBM/Intel/MicroSoft) bias showing up! Besides, who ever saw a 50MHz 486 done well. 8^} Mike Allen ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 81 Wed Jun 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:55 EDT Z-NET - Good point, John! I believe *all* the new machines have on-board clocks, though. It would seem *quite* silly if Atari were to overlook that, but then they've overlooked things before. Wow! Last night I saw a desktop (i.e. detachable keyboard) model Falcon. It was in a TT-style case but was black and more rounded around the edges (it looked somewhat better, but still roughly the same type of case). However, before I was able to see it running some kick-ass software, I woke up. *Seriously*, I had a very short dream about seeing a desktop model Falcon last night. Judging from what I saw, I hope I'm not psychic. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 82 Wed Jun 24, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 02:05 EDT I personally think it's a good idea for Atari _not_ to sell peripherals such as modems. It takes valuable time and resources away from projects like the "Falcon". I believe it would be foolish for Atari to try and market, for example, a 9600 baud modem these days. Everyone and his brother are selling them, and I don't think Atari could compete. Hard drives should just about all be internal with today's technology, but _easily_ changeable. I've always thought that Atari's "next generation" computers should use, if at all possible, standard PC-type card slots. At least use standard VGA type monitors. This is, of course, just my humble, insignificant opinion. ;^) John Nagy - If Atari leaves out an internal clock in the "Falcon", I may laugh all the way to my local PC dealer! Not that a clock is vital, but come on! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 83 Wed Jun 24, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:41 EDT S.JOHNSON10 - Actually, I think Atari has been so far behind in the game because they've been too busy building my "BLiTTER chip upgrade for the 520ST", which I was promised in 1986, perfecting the AMY sound chip, and enlarging their dealer base. In 1986 I _dreamed_ of someday becoming an Atari dealer. Then, I was lucky enough NOT to have had any money to do it with. Now that I have the money to do it, I'm lucky enough NOT to want to anymore. With Atari, history has a way of repeating itself. Still, I'd like to develop for the Falcon, if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to start. _______________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 84 Wed Jun 24, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 21:00 EDT Mick, "Standard PC-type card slots" just plain suck. Did you know they only go at 6Mhz? (well, they're commonly pushed to 8Mhz, but this breaks some cards). Even the PC-clone makers are moving away from the standard ISA slots. They're just too slow and antiquated for a forward-looking machine. I'll wager you didn't know this, so this is just FYI, but the case against standard-PC ISA slots cannot be stated too strongly. Other slots would be fine though. I'd suggest VME 6U slots, but not in the super-low-end $700-$900 model. In the two-piece and tower units there should be 2-5 slots. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 85 Wed Jun 24, 1992 G.T.GRAY [Gary Gray] at 21:12 EDT Remember the 486s are running a 16 bit environment. And Windows is a slow 16 bit ennvironment at that. These comparisons by Ingram labs are done running the same apps on the Macs and the 486s. It all depends on what your real world is. Microsoft apps on a Mac compared to Miscrosoft apps on clone under Windows. That will certainly make the Mac look good if that's your real world. Funny sounds like most peoples real world. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 86 Thu Jun 25, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 01:46 EDT Ben, You are correct that I don't know squat about ISA card slots. I've never owned a PC (big, fat hairy GRIN!). The main thought in my message is the incredible variety and availability of cards for them. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be able to run down the street to my local computer store, or for that matter any departmant store, and grab, for example, a 800X600X256 grpahics board and just pop it into the computer. Internal modems, EPROM burners, sound boards, hard drive cards, etc.,etc. are all easily available and priced _way_ below what anything comparable for any existing Atari computer may be. Don't get me wrong though. I believe what you tell me. Maybe Atari could set some kind of new standard. (cough...cough...) - Mick ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 87 Thu Jun 25, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 21:54 EDT Mick, I guessed that was your main thought. I bet the Falcon will include all the things you listed (except the modem and EPROM burner), and they'll be ON THE MOTHERBOARD (read about 4-8 times the speed) and thus they'll come with the base computer at no additional cost. The Falcon won't need a hard drive card (with IDE and SCSI capability built in), a sound card (CD quality sound built in), or a graphics card (XGA color built in). As for internal modems, external modems are just a little bit more, and they'll be useful long after no one can remember what an ISA card is for. Similarly, there are good serial EPROM burners (but I know almost nothing about that subject). There are a few GOOD standards out there already. ISA certainly isn't among them. Ben White 5th Crusade Software ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 88 Thu Jun 25, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:52 EDT Very TRUE ISA slots and DOS are just "79" Technology/// and S L O W ! ! BUT .... EISA.... BUS Mastering Graphics.. True 32 bit Windows NT!!! This should be what ATARI will have to GUN for.... it'l be '93 and they will be here in MASS and CHEAP... (inside information) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 89 Fri Jun 26, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 00:33 EDT And another hand desparately grasps at imaginary straws. Yeah, yeah, we don't want those nasty slots. They take up space and they're way too slow. And we'd drop dead from all the fun. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 90 Fri Jun 26, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:28 EDT D.ENGEL - In Atari's defense (don't break your necks reading that, everyone! ), Atari couldn't market the BLiTTER upgrade because it would've violated FCC regulations and the AMY sound chip was an Atari, Inc. product (being developed by a third party, I believe) which just didn't 'turn out right.' Now enlarging their dealer base I'll buy! M.POCHE - I've never owned an IBM either, much to my dad's shagrin since he's a manager w/ IBM and hasn't had any IBM or compatible computers in the family. Sure, there's been 5 Atari's (1 800, 2 130XE's, 1 520STm, and 1 1040STE) and one Apple (a Mac SE), but no IBM compatibles. And all I can do is laugh over that. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 91 Fri Jun 26, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 09:32 EDT My sister-in-laws brother is a muckity muck with IBM in Canada. That meant he brought his kids home one of those PS1's. His kids were familiar with the ST from our place. They were not impressed with their Dad's offering. Who can blame them. :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 92 Sat Jun 27, 1992 R.NOAK at 01:08 EDT Nathan, You know, it might be interesting to start an "MS-DOS Horror Story" Topic here. I'm sure we all have them and it would be great for Atari Dealers to have a thick stack of reasons for potential customers to steer clear of MS-DOS compatibilty. Besides, I work with MS-DOS machines every day, and I'm _so_ happy to get home to my Atari computers and software. To get back on topic... I have no personal knowledge, but if the rumors of Falcon's features are true, it appears to me that we are on the verge of another break through along the order of the ST's intro in 1985. It looks like the Falcon will _blow_ the Mac LC II out of the water on both features and price. Randy @ Southlake, Inc. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 93 Sat Jun 27, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:34 EDT J.RICHTER - Windows NT, huh? Too bad you can't see what I'm doing with my hand. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 94 Sat Jun 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:59 EDT FIFTHCRUSADE- did you happen to catch one of the recent issues of "Computer Shopper"? The big cover splash talks about this super-duper-mega fast-incredible-new-state- of-the-art-video technology for the MeSsYDOS world... it's called (get this): "Local Bus Video"! It seems that someone making clones figured out that if you hooked your video hardware directly up to the CPU BUS, that you could bypass the clunky ISA slots, and get really fast screen access. It's kind of funny to think that my Atari 2600 had this technology in 1977, and every Atari SINCE then has used this technique. Way to go, IBM! Too bad those "Local Bus Video" machines still have to put their RAM in the constraints of the fabulous "640K Barrier". I can't wait until someone I know starts bragging about their "new" machine. Maybe by 1999 they will remove the idiotic RAM scheme from the clones, and even let the video RAM reside in the same CONTIGUOUS address space (like my ST). Ha ha ha ha ha. ____________________ \hunderbird 'cause ISA slots are about as useful as the awesome 1-bit sound system included in every IBM machine. (1 = ON, 0 = OFF) ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 95 Sat Jun 27, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 12:56 EDT Nathan, Only true if we could buy the Falcon today... by the time we can buy the Falcon (93' maybe) Apple will have a far better offering than the LC.. that is if history repeats! Thunderbird.. Yes, DOS is O L D but just look how nice the multitasking Windows 3.1 works... this IS what people are using and BUYING!, DOS is just a poor jumping off point to get there! Now if Falcon can just GET HERE with its Multi-TOS OS before '93 in its 32MHZ true color form ...hmmmmm after 93' I am afraid too late... all ATARI specific dealers will have gone under by then... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 96 Sat Jun 27, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 12:59 EDT J.RICHTER, A MicroSloth rep came to the University of Waterloo last month to talk about Windows NT. Essentially, they haven't even decided on the features yet. And almost no-one is stupid enough to buy MicroSoft 1.0 products... -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 97 Sat Jun 27, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 16:03 EDT Ok ok, put me on record. I predict a Falcon will be shipping by October 1992 if not sooner and will certainly be in Dealers hands long before the holidays. I should know better but I'm still\ hoping. :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 98 Sat Jun 27, 1992 D.OSBORNE4 [SYSOZ] at 17:22 EDT Sure, and while Atari is at it, why not squeeze a Falcon into a ST Book case? Just think, a 030 ST Falcon-Book! And then -- get the producers of "Star Trek: The Next Generation" to display it in some of thier shows! WOW! The future using an Atari "Game Machine"!!!!!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 99 Sat Jun 27, 1992 S.WINICK at 19:59 EDT Nathan, ISD> Ok ok, put me on record. I predict a Falcon will be shipping ISD> by October 1992 if not sooner and will certainly be in ISD> Dealers hands long before the holidays. I should know better ISD> but I'm still\ hoping. :-) Gosh...... are you starting your own 'Crystal Ball' column -- perhaps for the previously 'rumored' STDorothy Online Magazine . Move over Ralph, looks like you may have some competition soon. ;-] Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 101 Sat Jun 27, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 20:27 EDT Hahahahaha I love it! Sheldon I hope the reports we got from our "super snoop" are not quite right. But considering the past record established by our snoop..... :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 102 Sat Jun 27, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 21:03 EDT Kene, Slots are expensive, and an excuse not to include parts that should be "standard equipment". A _few_ slots on a mid-to-high-end machine would be really nice if and only if they included all the important options as standard, and chose a decent bus standard. If you think slots are "fun", you've never tried to put together a PC system. Most of the combinations of cards/monitors/drives/motherboards/ keyboards/software/drivers/utilities just won't work together. Thunderbird, I didn't read the article, but I do know about the Local Bus slots. Finally the PC world joins the 80s. Ben White ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 103 Sat Jun 27, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 21:11 EDT Randy - I agree, based on the rumors, it seems feature-packed. I am concerned about the speed, though. How much faster will a 68030/16 be, than our venerable 68000/8? Enough to compete with a bottom-level DOS machine (60386SX/16)? -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 105 Sat Jun 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:09 EDT J.Richter - Yes, DOS is OLD, and PC's are even older. Imagine, if you will, if the Atari 800 was expanded as the clones have been... 50 MHZ 65402C Microprocessor 8 Megs of RAM (in 64K pages) 5.25" Floppies (1.2M) Atari Disk-Operating-System OSS Portholes(tm) Multitasking OS 3.1 Graphics 32VX+++ Etc. You get the picture... If you try and keep building on old technology, you get a kludge. Sorta like the early jet planes. They strapped jet engines onto old prop plane chassis. Worked okay, but were completely outclassed by the swept wing jets which were built from the ground up as jets. Besides, imagine what Windows 3.1 would be like if it were run on REAL hardware. Remember: it's cheaper to buy a Corvette ZR1 than it is to make a Dodge Shadow look and perform as well as one. ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 106 Sat Jun 27, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 23:05 EDT Oh yeah ... Now DOS machines are bad? Slots are expensive? We don't want no nasty slots! DOS is useless.... right. Everyone is going to come to their senses and buy a r-e-a-l computer. The world will convert to Atari. I lost a week somewhere. I thought the Twilight Zone Marathon was next week. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 107 Sun Jun 28, 1992 K.DRAKE [SirFransis] at 00:35 EDT Speaking of DOS, (if I may cut in) what do you think would be the benefits and or "bad-things" about non-disk based DOS? Let me not stand as a Tandy spokesperson but one must admit there is something almost sexy about turning on a computer and not having to fumble with startup disks. Just load the latest system software or your own settings onto your EPROM and go! Oh, by the way, I'm Ken. Pleased to meet you. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 109 Sun Jun 28, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 02:12 EDT Don't count on it coming out till next spring...that way you're less likely to be disappointed. A 68030-16 with basically the same system design will be about 4X. The DSP would allow some things to be much faster though...we'll see...maybe ;-) The ad Motorola has is not a real CPU-vs-CPU matchup, it's an architecture-vs- architecture matchup. If the Mac were replaced by the ST running CalamusSL, etc, the bar graph would be off the page, and into the next magazine rack. A 25Mhz 040 is a little faster than a 25Mhz 486 in pure performance, due to the internal harvard design, and more pipelining. However, the edge is not major, and a 50Mhz 486 fed by a memory tuned for it will run nearly twice as fast as a 25Mhz 040 fed by a memory tuned for it. That's just the way it is. Don't confuse lousy system design, and lousy SW design with a slow processor. The 486 and 040 have more in common than they do different. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 110 Sun Jun 28, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:13 EDT Oh, yeah... Now DOS machines are good? ISA slots are useful? I want MORE slow slots! I need a slot of my mouse, a slot for my printer, a slot for my floppies, a slot for my modem, a slot for my CD-ROM, a slot for my monitor, a slot for my scanner, a slot for my FAX, a slot for my joysticks, a slot for my scanner, a slot for my tape backup, and don't forget a slot for a sound card, and a slot to hold my spare change. I sure wish I had some way to include all these things in my computer WITHOUT tying up all my nifty slots. Then I would have MORE empty slots to halp make up for the _other_ deficiencies of my DOS BOX. Someone should make such a machine and it could be called "Falcon". MS-DOS is useful... right. MS-DOS is a wonderful program to teach people how to type.... LOTS. Why, if it wasn't for having to use MS-DOS at work, I'd NEVER be able to type at 60wpm like I do now! I can type "copy", "rename", "delete", "chdir", "dir", "move", and lots of other things _even faster_!!! Not to mention all of the file editing and tuning I have to do... the "autoexec.bat" and "config.sys" typing tutors have proved _invaluable_ resources in teaching me how to edit (and re-edit) files to get them to work "just right". _Everyone_ has a DOS-computer, so they _must_ be good!!! Look at how many have sold!!! Gosh, following the masses blindly has made me the fine human being that I have become today!!! I love to cuddle up with a delicious, healthy McBurger, while I type on my DOS-BOX and watch "Doogie Howser, M.D.", and "Beverly Hills 90210"!!! 'cause people hate me when I act like myself. - - - We interrupt "The Outer Limits" to bring you this special news bulletin. - - - Dateline, N.Y.: The MS-DOS scandal has now reached epic proportions. Reports are coming in from all over the country that the new IBM-Pepsi conglomerate has been secretly brainwashing innocent consumers with it's subliminal message campaign in software and in mass media advertising. The as-yet-to-be-revealed secret components, known only as "Uh-Huh!" have been included in every PC and Clone computer since early 1982, and have generated billions of dollars of illegal sales. "We were endeavoring to construct nmonic memory circuits using stone knives and bearskins! We knew nobody would buy them, so we put subliminal messages in the CPU." stated the unidentified ex-IBM engineer, who turned states evidence against the multi-billion-a-year IBM. He continued "We used to laugh about it, we were so high on our fabulous scheme. Did you know that our real company name was 'I Brainwash Minds'??? It was all a big joke!!! But then, I came across the new computer: The 'Falcon' it was called. And after using it for 2 minutes, I suddenly realized that our shenanigans were responsible for the destruction of America. That "Falcon" represented to me, what we really should be using. I looked around and saw all of the unemployed, and the homeless, and the drugs, and despair in the country, and I knew that we were responsible. That is when I decided to come forward with the TRUTH." - - - We now return control of your computer to you. More on this late- breaking story as it becomes available. - - - ___________________ Satire (c) 1992 \hunderbird 'cause I'd bet you'd buy "Leevis 3-Legged Jeans" if everyone else did too, wouldn't you?!?!?!?!? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 112 Sun Jun 28, 1992 R.NOAK at 14:23 EDT Jim, Since most users seem to feel that an 8 Mhz 68000 is about as fast as a 16 Mhz 386SX (perceived speed, not benchmarked), I would imagine that a 16 Mhz 68030 "Falcon" will be plenty fast. Another consideration is that, if that 16 Mhz 386SX is running Windows, I would imagine that our "Falcon" will appear to be running at light speed compared to that 16 Mhz 386SX. Add Warp 9, and I think we're talking. "WOW". ;-) OK, before anyone starts quoting benchmark speeds, I'm talking about "real world" speed. Opening documents, re-draws, searchs, and the like. IMHO, before anyone gets excited over a 16 Mhz 386SX machine, they should go to Sears and see how fast (or not) they really are. I would think that Nathan could give us some comparisons between Dyna CAD re- draws on various platforms. Kene, DOS isn't useless, it's just that it's difficult for many to comprehend. If that wasn't the case, there would be no market for Windows or Macs. IMHO, an Atari is the easiest computer for most (especially beginners) to use. Randy @ Southlake, Inc. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 113 Sun Jun 28, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 14:39 EDT I grabbed this off PC Pursuit a few days ago... Imagine that Cray computer decides to make a personal computer. It has a 150 MHz processor, 200 megabytes of RAM, 1500 megabytes of disk storage, a screen resolution of 1024 x 1024 pixels, relies entirely on voice recognition for input, fits in your shirt pocket and costs $300. What's the first question that the computer community asks? "Is it PC compatible?" Live And Direct [1:39 PM-28/Jun/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 115 Sun Jun 28, 1992 D.FLORY [ALERTsys*Cop] at 15:34 EDT Jim, my Mega 4 with the ICD accelerator already competed very favorably with the IBM PS/2 Model Z I used at work in perceived speed in all applications I used. That's using Windows 3.0, supposedly the new version of windows is faster. My newer SST model at 20Mhz is much faster at what I do than the same IBM, plus its easier to set up, use and trouble shoot when trouble does occur. Some of my DOS head buddies don't believe it. They're not about to give up on their investments, but they don't sneer at the Atari once they've seen it. >Don't confuse lousy system design, and lousy SW design with a slow >processor. Jim Allen - you couldn't be referring to DOS &/or Windows could you? Naw, couldn't be. :-) Dave Flory, ALERTsys*Cop 11:54 PDT - 06/28/92 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 117 Sun Jun 28, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 18:42 EDT I went to a PC Swapmeet/Show in Burbank today to look for a used laptop. I couldn't find one. Next Week! There were _DOZENS_ of modem cards, fax cards, display cards, motherboards, keyboards, chassis, power supplies and parts. Hundreds of square feet of shareware, freeware, commercial software from calendar programs, LabelPro, astronomy, astrology, finance, clip arp, GIF art, fonts, more fonts, printers, cd-rom, sound files, games, low medium high density disks, drives drivers, tape back-ups... I love my Atari but you guys must be correct. When Falcon comes out all those PC's will be doomed and obsolete. And they'll sell the software by the pound.... Okay, we're users and we're being selfish. Wouldn't it be nice if ATari developers could sell their stuff to more than the limited Atari Market? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 118 Sun Jun 28, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 21:16 EDT J.RICHTER, People are buying Windows, yes. Using it is another story. :^) Thunderbird -- I love it!! :^) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 119 Mon Jun 29, 1992 PDC.SW at 01:23 EDT Ed, people are buying Windows and using it; it ain't that bad, it's pretty slick actually, but like a lot of programs in the PC world it is big and has mucho stuff packed in -- kinda like the way WordPerfect or Pagemaker have mass features (so many that the manuals are like War and Peace rewritten)... I think in some circumstances Atari users are really biased, and when it comes to Windows. The Atari system is great in that it is very compact in use (you don't need 5 megs just to put the OS on), but it's showing its age (although with NeoDesk I think the interface is superior over Windows). oscar ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 120 Mon Jun 29, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:29 EDT SFRT-ASST - When's Summer CES??? It was back in Spring (someone explain *THAT* one! ). J.NESS - Actually, considering the overall speed of the OS's (with a GUI) and the microprocessors involved, I'd equate a 16MHz 68030 Falcon to be at least comparable to a 33MHz 80386 machine (or better). It seems like such a small thing, though, to ask for a 25-33MHz Falcon instead of a s/l/o/w/ 16MHz one. D.ENGEL - That's the problem with the Intel 80x86-line of microprocessors. Intel just kept building onto outdated hardware rather than creating something d/e/c/e/n/t/ new. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 121 Mon Jun 29, 1992 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 01:56 EDT Oscar: Tried TOS 2.0 or higher? In my opinion, it's better than Windows or Mac System 7, excluding multiasking... So, when MultiTOS comes out, which is better multitasking than those others, it'll be better across the board! Relating to Falcon: Since it will have MultiTOS and presumably at least something similar to 2.06 or maybe 3.0x (haven't used a TT myself, yet) Anyone sitting down to use one at a demo will be really wowed. Now all we have to do is get them to try it. Oh yeah, we need to get it out first. Sort of forgot that part... :) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 122 Mon Jun 29, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 03:23 EDT Steve, for very little $$ extra, you'll be able to have a 40 or 50Mhz Falcon...that drives a 19" mono monitor too ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 123 Mon Jun 29, 1992 S.WINICK at 06:36 EDT Jim, JA> Steve, for very little $$ extra, you'll be able to have a 40 JA> or 50Mhz Falcon...that drives a 19" mono monitor too ;-) Do you know something special that the rest of us haven't yet heard about? I didn't know that specs and prices of not yet available systems have been released. Perhaps you'd like to share some timetables with us also, like when, realistically, such a machine might be available. Or can you say, non- disclosure agreement? I would be extremely shocked to actually see the system you've hinted at really available for purchase anytime in the immediate future. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 124 Mon Jun 29, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 10:51 EDT I'd be shocked if it was _released_ with MultiTOS. TOS 3.07 maybe. MultiTOS would probably be value added. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 125 Mon Jun 29, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 15:46 EDT Sheldon: I think maybe Jim is hinting at a Mega ST4 with a Turbo030 at 50 MHz. ;) Anyone: So while we're at it, what kind of price do you think Atari will charge us for MultiTOS? I'm betting on $100-150, but if they release it at a show (say, WAACE), we may get lucky and be able to get it for $75. Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 126 Mon Jun 29, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:33 EDT Sheldon, the 40-50Mhz and 19" hires mono are peripherals _I_ will make for the Falcon...If'n it ever actually ships. I do have the required info to know what I wish to do is easily doable, and I already have the required technology in my toolbox, if the machine ships I'll make a PC that adds a 40-50Mhz 030 and 1152x870 video to the machine. I also know the price roughly, hence the "low $$" reference ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 127 Tue Jun 30, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:10 EDT J.ALLEN27 - Right! But try and find a '486 system with that setup! It was more of a 'real-world' system comparison. R.NOAK - I even know a lot of IBM'ers who refuse to use Windows (a few even *HAVE* Windows but have just never installed it) because they think it's lame and, of course, slow. By the way, did Tim Purves teach you how to spell the plural of "search"? R.MARTIN22 - Just shows how incredibly ignorant the 'computer community' is in general. I'm also getting sick of overhearing salespeople in computer stores telling customers shopping for a computer that they need at least a 33MHz '386SX w/ a 100MB hard drive and that they need MS-DOS 5.0, Windows 3.1, WordPerfect 5.1, Lotus 1-2-3, etc. *JUST TO GET THEM STARTED*. If they're going to force these IBM compatibles on these poor people, they should *at least* steer them towards better alternatives such as DR DOS 6.0 and OS/2 2.0 (okay, OS/2 being better than Windows 3.1 is debatable) and not flat-out lie to customers that they *need* expensive, overpowerful programs than they need (like WordPerfect). It's funny that the Mac, Atari and Amiga are snubbed by computer reviewers who always say that these machines biggest drawbacks is that they're not IBM-compatible. Funny...I thought that was one of their *best* features. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 128 Tue Jun 30, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 01:43 EDT Yeah, but it still doesn't multitask. At least not yet. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 129 Tue Jun 30, 1992 R.NOAK at 01:59 EDT Steve, I telecom on my old 1040, and the keyboard is not the best. I occasionally mis- type a word. If I've offended your sensibilities, please accept my apologies. Randy @ Southlake, Inc. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 130 Tue Jun 30, 1992 J.SNYDER7 [Josh Snyder] at 04:34 EDT as for the diffrence in OS types in the world... We hear at Cali-Co. Have MANY types of computters, BUT we started and Still use as are MAIN Platform, the Venarable ST line! When we got are first AMIGA for instance, We all Hated it! shure it WAS a 68000 and it DID have graphics chips that pleasently remind me of the Atari 800 ;> (If ATARI dose a Damn fool thing and piss of thare current line of 'wiz-kids', like the designer of the ST Book, I think that all is LOST! If Atari Neads some cash thay Should sell the power management system developed for the Book! NOTHING that I have EVER heard about even comes CLOSE to REAL world Performence like the book!) and the Amiga COUD do some pritty amazing things, BUT the OS is a REAL dog! But for SOME people, The amiga works the SAME way that thay do. to them Using the AMIGA CLI is th ONLY way to go.... the LONG lists of Assigns are IT!, The ONE TRUE WAY! whel let me Tell you, THARE IS N N OO NN N O O N N N O O N NN O O N N OO ONE TRUE WAY ! not every one thinks like an AMIGA and Not every one thinks like an ST, And in a VERRY inportant way, Thay Should NOT have to! Josh P.S. One of the Best Experences that I have had with the amiga worls was when a Frend of mine who owns an AMIGA 3000 25Mhz 030 and runs Page Stream 2.2 on his Amiga, Brought a Document over to Our house to use are Laser Printer..... as he is looking over my sholder at the screen redrawing on a STOCK 1040ST and asking "How come the text is SO MUCH FASTER on youre ST than on My AMIGA?" ;> ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 131 Tue Jun 30, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 06:06 EDT Jim, assuming I still have a job when I get back I may well be tempted beyond my power to resist if you really have a plug-in to bring a basic Falcon up to 50 Mhz with monochrome display that good (why not go for the full 1200 x 960 or better?). I'd promised myself to wait until the 'tower 040' came out, but...... Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 132 Tue Jun 30, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 17:27 EDT Heh, heh. Imagine 1200x960, on a 14" monitor. Icons the size of pinheads... -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 133 Tue Jun 30, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 20:48 EDT Thunderbird, Problem with your anti-DOS rant (love it!)... There's no move command. Even 20 years or so after DOS's inception, you can't move files. You have to copy and then delete the original. Yahoo Microsoft... -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 134 Tue Jun 30, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 22:49 EDT Gregg, the Mac 19" and 21" monitors are 1152x870 units, they don't so 1280x960. They also only cost $400-700...AND...that resolution happens to fit in 128K of ram, a particularly convenient size ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 135 Tue Jun 30, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 23:05 EDT Earlier messages in this topic expressing concerns over a built-in clock for the Falcon need not worry ;-) There is a battery backed realtime clock in the computer. For those interested in further details and an upclose look at a Falcon prototype, stay tuned for issue 3 of Atari Advantage for extensive coverage. Checkout cat 15, topic 4 for further details. // Ron @ Atari Advantage Magazine // ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 136 Tue Jun 30, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 23:52 EDT JIM N. Are you sure about pinhead sized Icons? I am running a 1240X1024 mon which is 16 inch monitor in 24Bit color and the Icons and text are easy to read. Maby your Icons wern't sanforized or some thing? OH maby the .26 dot pitch has something to do with it? Well any way it seems to me...(who knows nothing about- DTP or Fonts ect) that the whole Idea of Big screens and High res was to get small icons and letters and fonts and pictures and all like that? :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 137 Thu Jul 02, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:35 EDT R.NOAK - Sorry if that misspelling 'crack' wasn't taken the way it was intended. "Searchs" is how it's spelled under the 'Library' menu in Aladdin and that's all the joke was. So does Tim Purves have one of these Falcon computers yet? If Atari gave him one several weeks ago, we'd probably have *plenty* of great programs available for it by the time it's released. In the late new issue of Atari Online Magazine, Bob Brodie calls it the "Falcon 030" so should we take it that that *IS* its name? He said the plans have been made to introduce the Falcon 030 at a Boston Computer Society meeting on September 23, 1992. Now that Atari has WaldenSoftware stores carrying the Lynx, maybe they can get them to carry the Falcon machines??? Okay, here's a marketing idea... In the September/October issue(s) of BYTE and/or COMPUTE! and/or {insert any large circulation general computing magazine here}, have a full-page 'teaser' ad for the Falcon/030 that says "The Falcon is coming!" or something of the sort and maybe some brief general info about the machine on a plain background. Then after the BCS meeting in September, put some full-page ads in the same magazines w/ full color pictures of the machine and more specific info, including the release date unless it'll be released within a few weeks after the BCS meeting. I don't know for sure, but hype *could* help. Also, a good promotional idea is to offer a temporary (maybe for up to 2-3 months after its release) upgrade offer to existing Atari owners that would offer a discount off a new system of more than the used prices of their systems. Maybe make the upgrade offer only valid at 'dedicated' Atari dealers (e.g. if Circuit City or some other chain ends up selling Atari computers, they *wouldn't* handle upgrades) and have the dealer make sure any equipment traded in are in perfect working order and make it so that 'ratty-looking' equipment (i.e. equipment with cosmetic/'structural' damage) won't be accepted. Okay, well maybe I *AM* being a little greedy here?! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 138 Thu Jul 02, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 06:33 EDT Hey, for 1280 X 960 (or better) in real colors I'd spring (somehow) for a 16- 17" Toshiba, Taxxan, or Nano.... All I ask, make that beg, is that Atari let the new Falcon series take w3advantage of EXISTING monitors for ALL the available resolutions. Please, no more having to buy a dedicated 'high-res only' monitor to gain access to whatever super high-res the Falcon series is (or becomes) capable of displaying. That way, if a user is willing to settle for an easy to read mid-res on a cheaper monitor, great. If he/she wants to have a usable super high-res display then he can spend a few extra dollars and buy a SINGLE monitor (at the same price his MessyDOS neighbor pays for his clone) that gives the super sharp 1280 x 980 (or whatever) display as well as the lower resolutions enlarged to take advantage of the larger screen. Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 139 Thu Jul 02, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:05 EDT -Chris- That's _another_ HUGE problem with DOS... no, not the lack of a "move" command. It's the fact that I've been using DOS every day for over 4 years now, and because many years ago, I installed a "move" command in my /utils directory and "put it on my path", I became so accustomed to using it, I thought it was part of DOS itself. I didn't remember that Microsloth(tm) LEFT IT OUT. Apparently, Microsloth(tm) doesn't listen to it's users and add the features the users want. I remember asking Atari for a "move" and getting one in the next TOS revision. You'd think a big company like Microsloth(tm) would be able to do the same. Now, when I go to use a friends computer, I'll have to re-learn everything because his system's commands which make up for the deficiencies in DOS may be installed under totally different names. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 140 Fri Jul 03, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:39 EDT Gregg...you did get your wish. On the hires, I was refering to hires Mono because the 21" Mac monitors are only $500-800....compared to the Moniterm which was $1495 and the TTM194 which is $1195. Power without the price, remember ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 142 Fri Jul 03, 1992 K.DRAKE [SirFransis] at 23:13 EDT Steve, How about a TV commercial for the Falcon. At the end, the camera zooms back and viewers discover the entire presentation was put together on an unaided _stock_ Falcon? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 143 Fri Jul 03, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:57 EDT Yeah, the ad was running on a Falcon's screen...using JRI's genlock for it...and the camera backs at the end so you see that it was a camera veiwing a computer screen, running an ad about the computer. But this is unlikely, perhaps they migh splurge on an ad in AtariAdvantage though? ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 144 Sat Jul 04, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:49 EDT Let's face reality... If Atari does not pursue a massive advertising campaign for the Falcon, they will find themselves in the same boat they are now. When the falcon first comes out, it will receive rave reviews and sales will skyrocket amongst the Atari community, and those others in the computer field who posess more than 2 brain cells. After a year or 2, everyone who would want a falcon will have bought one, and sales will only consist of the few people who falcon owners manage to wrench away from PC's, and sales of replacements for machines which are lost, destroyed, or broken. With sales dwindling, there will be no money for R&D, and in 5 years, there will be PC clones on the market which are just as good as or better than the falcon, which won't have been enhanced at all, except for the addition of some measley graphics improvements and a new case design. The key factors here are that the public in general should KNOW that Atari makes computers. (Anyone ever say "I thought they were out of business", or "Atari makes _computers_???" to you?), and that Atari should market the new machines for schools, businesses, etc. You see, the sad truth is this: people don't base their computer purchases on the merits of a platform. They stick with what they use at work and at school. They also buy what their friends buy (unfortunately, to "trade" software with them). We need increased public awareness of the new machines. It's fine to target a niche or two, but if you want to sell a million you've got to reach 100 million people. Atari makes the world's most interesting computers. People should know that!!! _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 145 Sat Jul 04, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 11:08 EDT Thunderbird, Micro$loth only adds features its competitors have already added to their products... And even then, only when they feel like it. Rumour has it that DR- DOS has a "move" command. ------ 8< ------ So, they're actually calling it the "Falcon" eh? IMHO, still sounds like a game. -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 146 Sat Jul 04, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 11:46 EDT SirFransis, That does sound like a good idea (re 142) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 147 Sat Jul 04, 1992 K.DRAKE [SirFransis] at 15:12 EDT Chris, It doesn't sound as bad if you pronounce it in the "Millenium" way. "Fall-con" sounds powerful and serious. "Fal-con" just sounds like a bird. Sir Fransis----/ / _____________/ ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 148 Sat Jul 04, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 19:48 EDT K.DRAKE Let's just hope we don't have to pronounce it "foul-con". :-) Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 149 Sat Jul 04, 1992 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 20:46 EDT Thunderbird, your assumption on for Atari advertising is correct. However, you are also assuming that they will have the supply to meet demand with or without advertising. If we look at past history, this could be a critical error. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 150 Sun Jul 05, 1992 J.SNYDER7 [Josh Snyder] at 01:17 EDT >Micro$loth only adds features its competitors have already added to >their products... And even then, only when they feel like it. Rumour >has it that DR-DOS has a "move" command. As I Look at My DR DOS On line help on my 386 DOS Box (Yech!) the anqwer to the roumer mill is YES DR DOS does indead have a move command. For Potential DOS'ers out thare, DR DOS 6.0 is MUCH better than Micro$loth Dos... Heck Digital Reasherch WROTE the origanal of MS DOS, That being CPM. witch through a BUNCH of leagal Who Had Micro$loth efectively STOLE from DR! (Thare were licenced to re-write CPM for a SMALL cerculation computer applatation, and ended up taking over the entire industry.!) The DR vs MS legal battles are STILL going on, if I'm not mistaken. Thare are something like BILIONS in disputed profets! (And MS dident even port CPM verry wel when thay took it to the PC!) Josh. @ Cali-Co. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 151 Sun Jul 05, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 05:26 EDT Josh, I'm not supprised that DR DOS is light years ahead of MeSsyDOS. Actually MSDOS is based (using the term loosly) on CP/M 1.4 which was obsolete at the time. CP/M 3.0 was really good but never had a chance since IBM/M$ had killed tha 8- bit market - a triumph of marketing over technology! CP/M 3.0 also had a help command which could be edited/expanded by the user. I do wish IBM/M$ hadn't decided to use the '\' as a path separator instead of the '/' which was already in use in Unix. Then we wouldn't have all this compatability issue in MultiTOS which, I hear, comes with the Falcon. (boy, what a sneaky way to keep the TopiCops happy!) Mike Allen ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 152 Sun Jul 05, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 12:15 EDT PETER- It seems like a rather large "Catch-22" that Atari is in... without advertising, there can be no sales... without hardware supplies, there is no reason to advertise much... with no sales, there is no money to stock up, OR to advertise with. Hence, everyone buys a clone and lives drearily ever after. I, for one, am waiting with baited breath for the new machines to come out. I have been saving for my next Atari computer for about 5 years now (I started saving when the Mega ST rumors were flying, but never bought one because it was nothing _more_ than my 520 w/ram + clock, which I already owned... I never bought a TT because it was never FCC Class B... and never bought an STe because by the time they came out, they were obsoleted by the TT, and my local dealer closed)! So, here I sit, on a pile of cash, waiting for the "Next Generation" of personal computing power to arrive. Hoping that Atari will finally open it's tight pursestrings and spend a little money _promoting_ it's computers. Even if they have to practically _give_ them to schools and businesses (or sell them at cost or something), it would put Atari back in the public eye and generate much more sales. Of course, maybe the Falcon is _too good_ for the clones own good (if you know what I mean). Remember what happened to the "Tucker"??? ____________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 153 Sun Jul 05, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 13:26 EDT The Lynx ads in tune with Batman...the game...seem quite good. Certainly they are likely to make alot of people aware of the Lynx. Perhaps if these really work, then they'll go for it on the Falcon when the time comes. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 154 Sun Jul 05, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 13:46 EDT Ok, it seems obvious now that the Falcon does/will have the much-rumored DSP chip. Now, can someone give us any ideas on what this chip will/should be used for? I know it's main purpose is processing digital audio and video, but what type of real-world applications is it being used for in other machines? I assume it's best assets will used for multimedia applications, right? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 155 Sun Jul 05, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 14:29 EDT Mick: I think NeXT uses it for the audio capability in its workstations (ie, being able to send voicemail to another user, etc.). Anthony ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 156 Sun Jul 05, 1992 G.NORTON [G.NORTON] at 15:56 EDT Slick?? Incredibly awkward comes to mind. Yes I have used Windows right up to 3.1. In fact I sell DOS boxes as well as ST/TT's and I most definatly do prefer the latter. Granted I only work on the basic Windows (ie no Norton Desktop) but the ST is ALOT more fun to use, and I don't mean playing games either. Graham @ Quay Computers ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 157 Mon Jul 06, 1992 C.FLUEGEL at 00:08 EDT DSP will allow voice mail (throw out your answering machine, buy a falconn , and if the A/d and D/A convertors are built in(as im sure they are) all you will need is software to make digital recording possible... for the Atari music market this could put them back in first place.. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 158 Mon Jul 06, 1992 S.SAMUELS [ICE CREAM] at 02:44 EDT Cool idea on the TV commercials...but probably toooo costly. How 'bout doing the same thing except on a radio commercial? You know, the camera zooms out, etc. %^)))))))))))) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 159 Mon Jul 06, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 06:41 EDT D.ENGEL - That's my biggest complaint about Atari marketing --- the fact that *MOST* people don't even know they exist (or at least don't know they make computers). They don't even need big, flashy TV ads, although they would be nice to see and have a much larger impact. They could, at the very least, put occasional ads in large circulation magazines like TIME, Newsweek, etc. and not just in a select few specialty magazines. Even if Atari takes a short term initial loss on it, going 'all-out' on marketing during the first several months could be highly beneficial. Unfortunately, it seems like Atari has only been able to focus on the short term. P.BULLOCK2 - From what little has been said by Atari about the Falcon 030, they *DO* seem to plan to have a large supply of the machines when they are released. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 160 Mon Jul 06, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 20:47 EDT To: S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] My future brother inlaw yesterday said the same thing when i showed him my system/genie and the new Ratsoft BBS Program (the best bbs program for the Atari ST). he thought Atari went under back in 1983 since thats the last time he has seen one. i think in N.C. we have one dealer! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 161 Mon Jul 06, 1992 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 23:53 EDT Thunderbird, If that pile of cash your sitting on is getting too uncomfortable, I will gladly offer my assistance in making it more comfortable, as in I'll take some off your hands.(g) I'm in the same boat, sans cashola. I'm not doing any upgrades while I wait on the Falcon. I can only hope for the best. I've been using the ST line for too long to change now. I guess I'm comfortable with it, the machine, not the company. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 162 Tue Jul 07, 1992 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 00:16 EDT S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 06:41 EDT > >P.BULLOCK2 - From what little has been said by Atari about the Falcon 030, >they *DO* seem to plan to have a large supply of the machines when they are >released. >---------- Steve, I sincerely hope you are correct because that would sure heat things up in the Atari market. However, I haven't seen any indications that the Falcon will be different, following on the heels of the TT and the ST book. I guess I'm just being negative, so for now, I'll just shut up and wait. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 163 Tue Jul 07, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:36 EDT Speaking of the Lynx, it would also be nice if Atari would include some kind of 'brochure' for their computers with the Lynx packages. That would be a very easy (and cheap) way to inform people about Atari computers, especially if the Lynx is selling as well as Atari says it is. M.POCHE - Yes. Multimedia, voice-mail, fast data compression, etc. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 164 Tue Jul 07, 1992 D.FISK2 [David] at 00:46 EDT We all seem to be dumping on Atari for it's implied "unwillingness" to properly market it's products. But I'm not a Marketing professional and I'm not sure how many others here are...to be truthful I'm not convinced Atari can afford major advertising in its present economic conditions So what actually does a similar sized company spend on marketing? Where is it spent...how...? What return is expected? How does Atari rate in comparison? How should the market launching of the new Falcon be handled? Anyone with actual credentials (list them pls :-)) care to comment? Cheers, David F. Fisk ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 165 Tue Jul 07, 1992 S.WINICK at 05:31 EDT Major marketing decisions by any company aren't made through public discussion. They're made by carefully analyzing all the facts, by the company officials whose job security will be directly tied to the decisions they make. Relative to any future product release, you can be sure that Atari is currently anlayzing their options and conferring with individuals who will be directly involved in the production, distribution, promotion and sale of those products. Past marketing decisions and criticisms aside, I think we can all agree that Atari makes an excellent hardware platform. I'm sure they are well aware of their past miscalculations, just as any company would be, and will be taking those facts into consideration as well. Sometimes it seems like it is awfully easy to get sidetracked and dump blame for everything on Atari. Granted, they're not perfect; but then again, I can't think of any company that is. But we really need to keep in mind their size and capabilities -- and the fact that somehow, from among all the computer companies that have come and gone since the late '70s, Atari has somehow managed to survive. Obviously, they're not doing everything wrong. The end user should not have to take every problem and question directly to Atari for answer or resolution. That should be the function of their Atari dealer and service center network. I realize that many of you may not have the benefit of a quality local dealership, but there are several dealers who are active here on GEnie who are providing a high calibre of support for their non-local customers via this medium. It's up to you to take advantage of the resources available to you. I can't help but wonder at the logic of some consumers when I continually see posts from Atarians who just purchased a new piece of equipment and are having problems getting it up to speed and turn to GEnie, and frequently the dealers active here online looking for help. Perhaps if they chose to support those very same quality dealers by purchasing from them in the first place they wouldn't be having so much trouble getting their systems properly configured. I find it amazing how even the simplest of questions sometimes get blown so totally out of proportion because they didn't receive the necessary support from their selling dealer. The consumer really is the ultimate controller of the market place. If you choose to take your business to the lowest price fly-by-night mail-order operation instead of a quality dealer, you have no one to blame but yourselves when you find yourself without any quality local or regional support. This is a tight economy, and I can't imagine any dealership not doing his/her best to remain competitive pricewise. But you must realize that operating a storefront dealership and providing quality selection, service and support costs more than merely running a phone bank and shipping out boxes. Fortunately, we have several quality Atari dealerships active in the mail- order market who can properly provide quality service and support to non-local customers. It's up to the consumer to choose where to shop, and who to support...... and who will survive. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 166 Tue Jul 07, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:37 EDT Sheldon: I agree with what you say but reality is not everyone has a local dealer and sometimes when they do, they don't lend the support that your customers get. You have done an excellent job in advertising the support you give through various ways. I wish all dealers were like you. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 167 Tue Jul 07, 1992 D.D.MARTIN [Swampy] at 19:35 EDT DAVID -- Where was the marketing and advertising 4-5 years ago when Atari was "making money"? There are so many "computer literate" people that still think of Atari as "pong" games. Advertising is a "budget item" and generally is figured on per centage of gross income. Much depends on how competitive a given market area is. Even if you are the only game in town, you still need to advertise. People needing your goods or services need to know you exist and how to contact you. SHELDON -- I agree 100% !! I'm not rich, but my daddy always told me, "Hon, ya get what ya pay for." I'll pay a few dollars more to get the kind of service that you and others like you offer. As a matter of principal, I carry my competitor's business card and when I get the "I can get it cheaper from..." line from one of my customers, I hand them one and invite them to call. I also remind them that I provide services that my competitor doesn't. I _always_ give my clinets a free _paper proof_ printed to size so they can see _exactly_ what my suppliers are going to print from. Many times, this is the _only_ camera ready copy of their logo they have ever had and it's theirs for free. I also guarentee customer satisfaction, and in the imprint business _that's_ unheard of. But they might have to pay a little more for the "hand holding" and attention to detail. Hugs...Swampy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 168 Tue Jul 07, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 21:11 EDT To: S.WINICK You must be one of the fue Atari dealers we have in this great state of ours (N.C.). there sure is not any Atari dealers in Fayetteville, NC I think this is the IBM Captial of the world. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 169 Tue Jul 07, 1992 C.CASSADAY [Chris C.] at 22:07 EDT S.Winick Good words. I agree, I don't think that Atari is completely stupid. Like you said, people's jobs are riding on their marketing decisions and that is a pretty good motivator. It seems as if a large sum of money has been put into developing these new platforms, and it seems as if other parts of Atari Corp. have had to suffer a little bit. A small company doesn't have ALL the resources for both R and D or marketing. I think that we (the Atari users) have suffered through some pretty tough times, but Atari is still around. That's good enough for me. I think that the future that lies ahead can only hold good things that all Atari users will be able to benefit from. Chris C. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 170 Wed Jul 08, 1992 D.FISK2 [David] at 00:30 EDT Swampy; Yes, I have to agree with you regarding US advertising some years ago but I think we have to remember that those "profits" were likely a result of the success of Atari in Europe and Canada. I can't believe they got the market % they did there by marketing ala USA style. It would seem natural to assume that Atari did have some sort of Marketing Plan at some point in it's history (of course it did and still does-it just may not be as we perhaps think it should be). Sheldon; I'm in agreement regarding supporting the local suppliers/retailers who are technically/mentally prepared to give support. It is difficult though when we as users are frequently as knowledgable or more so than they are regarding hardware or the latest software. Retailers also owe it to their customers to make the effort to ensure they are up to date. When the retailers have no answers then it should be no surprise that we turn to GEnie. One would assume that retailers are now, even as we speak, receiving their sample Falcon so that they can be technically proficient with it when it is released this fall/RSN. :-) Cheers, David F. Fisk (actually I know my local retailers ONLY schematic of the STe is from an old Start magazine- he gave me a copy) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 171 Wed Jul 08, 1992 S.WINICK at 05:34 EDT Mark, Living in a IBM capital -- arghhhhh! Unimaginable! Sounds like you're in a real need for an Atari dealership in your city. If you know of any possible prospects -- or perhaps even a music store that's getting into MIDI (and who isn't!), let me know in E-mail and I'll forward the information to Atari's regional rep to follow up on. Right now there's a big push to recruit additional music dealerships as Atari dealers in the region. It may not be quite as good as a full-fledged 'real' computer store, but its definitely a good start. Chris, Atari does offer an excellent co-op advertising program to their authorized dealers, so available advertising dollars can be concentrated in areas where their products are actually available. They have also done some national co-op advertising, such as their recent desktop publishing campaign featuring the MegaSTe system. The large 2-page color spread has been run several times in non-Atari specific publications (and is currently also running in the 'centerfold' of the May/June Atari Explorer magazine). It is dealer tagged with a list of dealers who are participating in the program. I'm hopeful that you'll soon be seeing additional national advertising for Atari products, and a better coordination of programs between Atari and their dealers. You can be assured that new marketing strategies are currently being formulated. David (Fisk), I would certainly hope that most users would be more knowledgeable in many specific applications than most dealers. After all, dealers have to maintain a general knowledge of an awful lot of hardware and software, whereas the consumer can concentrate on those specific applications he or she really wants or needs. Of course, even we dealers have our favorites which we really know inside and out! ;-] The Falcon and other possible future Atari systems, have NOT yet been released to dealers -- and no release date for the next generation of Atari computers has been publicly announced as far as I know. And when it is, you can be sure they'll already be working on the next generation of systems after that -- this industry doesn't stand still for very long. Atari, and other computer companies as well, typically do not distribute prototype products to resellers until designs have been finalized, and production/distribution/marketing decisions determined. By the way, if your local dealer still doesn't have the STe/MegaSTe/TT030 service manuals, tell him to contact Atari and order them -- they've been available for quite some time already. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 172 Wed Jul 08, 1992 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 18:55 EDT Sheldon, That was a great post. However, I feel the biggest drawback currently for the Atari market *is* it's lack of dealers. The sales happen At the dealership. Most of us are impulse buyers. We see something, we like it, and we snap it up. Catalogues, mail order, electronic mail, whatever, leave us too much time to think or not enough exposure to a product to complete the sale. In my opinion, Atari would be wise to focus their efforts on building back the base of dealers, and they most likely are making efforts towards this end. This is a long term approach, and perhaps more low key than most of us rabid atarians would like, but I feel it is necessary. I do a lot of traveling, and I always try to see the Atari dealerships in the different cities (no, I haven't been to Asheville, but I'll get there(G)). It really helps to have Yellow page advertising with the Atari logo. It works for me. The majority have been poor excuses for an atari business. AT best, there have been a couple of extremely old game titles, no hardware, more Amigas and even more pc's. Nothing I would want to buy, and I'm out the door. The store personnel are usually playing games on the IBM clones and know very little about the ST et al. But" Wing Commander is great on the IBM, dude." I know there are good dealers out there, but they are too few and far between to let people know we've got a real good machine. Software titles is another short coming, but more of a symptom than the problem. I've also been to a few great dealers (Team computers and Toad come to mind) that lift my spirits and make me feel good about the machine I own and what it can do. We just need more of them! I have done the word of mouth story until I'm blue. MY family has ST's, a few friends have ST's, but I'm starting to feel guilty. One guy who works for me mentioned he wanted to buy a computer and wanted to know what I'd recommend. He doesn't have a dealer nearby (are there any in Cincinnati?) so I didn't feel comfortable telling him to buy an ST. I did tell him I love it and it works great, and it does all I want it to do. His decision. He bought a PC. The best part is he didn't tell me he bought it for 2.5 months. When he finally called and told me, it was "would I teach him how to use it?" After all that time, he still couldn't figure out how to get it to work. What a lousy machine and a waste of $1500. The moral of the story? Sheldon, you have to expand northward. Pack that carpet bag and give us what we deserve(G). Wow, get off of the soapbox, huh? This turned out much longer than I meant. Peter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 174 Wed Jul 08, 1992 J.DILLENBURG [John] at 20:08 EDT The DSP chip could also be used for fast public key encryption/decryption. Perhaps Atari is planning on using the DSP chip as a bullet proof anti-piracy device? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 175 Wed Jul 08, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 20:24 EDT To: S.WINICK I asked them about carring Atari computers. there reaction was like "GET REAL, AND GET A REAL COMPUTER". I was in there looking at keyboards for my kid (to hook to my system :-) ), but I bought the Casio CT-670 keyboard at Circut City. Software City did carry the Atari in Fayetteville, NC but they liked the Amiga better and droped the Atari a fue years ago (like 4 or 5). they carry only software now for the Amiga, Mac and IBM. I wish there was one place that carried Atari computers. its to bad Atari cen not get any major chains to carry there computers like K-Mart, Circut City, Sears, Wal-Mart etc.. This is cheep, But Good advertizing since the units when properly displayed would atlest put the name "ATARI" in there head. Most people do not even know Atari is alive and breathing (on life support). A fue years back they did not want the Atari in Toys R Us because they wanted the Atari computer to not look like a Toy/Game Mach well I see nothing wrong with that if it sells units. By they way my wife is a manager at Toys R Us (low end with no pull). If they sell IBM compats in K-mart/wal-mart/Sams it should be also good for Atari. Not only that IBM and other computer Gaints are selling there machs mail order now (IBM uses a dif name) and Compact uses there own name. Alot can be done but is not being done to improve the Atari line of computers/or at least noticed. Maybe this is the year of Atari? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 176 Thu Jul 09, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 02:59 EDT Anyone notice how there has been no response from Atari Reps about the upcomming Falcon feature in Atari Advantage? Maybe since the computer isn't official, any refrence to it is automatically 'filtered' out by thier terminal programs!! ;) I wonder if they review an 'official' version or a beta test type thing. I wonder if they know? I put in my vote for "ABAQ" graphics !!! ....Sam Rapp ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 177 Thu Jul 09, 1992 S.WINICK at 08:04 EDT Peter, Whenever I travel, I also check out the yellow pages looking for an Atari store. I agree a yellow page display ad lends credence in the eyes of the consumer to the validity of the platform. We've run large yellow page display ads for several years ourselves for Computer STudio. Unfortunately, Atari does not allow co-op credit for yellow page advertising, so that cost is strictly out-of-pocket for any dealership choosing to do that type of advertising. And it does get expensive; even here in small-town Asheville, our yellow page advertising costs around $400 per month! You can imagine what it could cost in a large city. Mark, I hope you'll be driving over to Asheville for the Blue Ridge AtariFest on Saturday, July 18th. Mike Groh will be here from Atari -- one of his primary job functions is to sign up new dealerships. Another of our show participants will be Applied Audio Marketing, Atari's Southeast rep firm -- who is also responsible for increasing Atari's dealer base in the region. This will give you a first hand opportunity to share your views with those who are responsible for bringing new dealerships onboard. Our closing seminar session on Saturday afternoon will be a session with Mike Groh. It should be a good opportunity for an exchange of ideas and concerns. Come join us for a great day at the show. If you're not on our mailing list and would like a show flyer, drop me your address in E-mail and I'll send one out immediately. Perhaps a marketing discussion for Atari's next generation of computers just might come up! ;-] Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 178 Thu Jul 09, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 10:49 EDT Sam - One of the Atari Advantage folks mentioned that Bill Rehbock reviewed the article, and even wrote a sidebar for it. I guess that means it has the stamp of approval. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 179 Thu Jul 09, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 21:02 EDT Sir Fransis, The Millenium Falcon is the only way I've thought of that makes "Falcon" sound less like a game. If you take it as an F-18 (or whichever plane is called the "Falcon") you alienate people like me who hate the military... A falcon is a bird of prey. Who's it going to prey on? The falcon is also controlled by a handler... Is the *user* the handler, or are we looking at some weird ploy for Atari to become Big Brother? :-) -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 180 Thu Jul 09, 1992 AD-VANTAGE at 22:00 EDT Jim, A minor correction; Bob Brodie mentioned in Atari Explorer Online that Atari had seen the article and Bill Rehbock would be writing a sidebar. Just want to make sure the quote was correctly attributed :-) We don't want to spoil the surprises any further before people start receiving their issues. // Ron @ Atari Advantage Magazine // ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 182 Fri Jul 10, 1992 P.BULLOCK2 [PETER] at 06:29 EDT Sheldon, I find it hard to believe that atari does not have a co-op program for the yellow pages. IMO, it is one of the most direct ways to reach a customer base, and certainly one of the easiest to track for effectiveness. Of course, I didn't realize how expensive it is to do. Ouch! No wonder there has been a influx of alternative 'yellow pages'. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 183 Fri Jul 10, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 06:49 EDT So who's supposed to be the 'handler' of the Falcon? Why you the user, of course . I'm looking forward to seeing this new beast hit the streets, I only hope it does so soon enough and in large enough numbers to make an impact. Speaking of which... has anyone noticed that it's been a awfully long time since we've heard anything new about the Falcon? Has something happened to our German source? Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 184 Fri Jul 10, 1992 K.DRAKE [SirFransis] at 08:15 EDT Chris, The user is the handler and the Interface will be code-named Falconry! Sir Fransis ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 185 Fri Jul 10, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 13:30 EDT To: S.Johnson10 [Steve] hehehe I know what you mean about that (year of the Atari) I am buying a 486 50mhz 205megs at the end of the month (I have a Extra $3,000) this month since I was saving $500.00 per month to buy a good computer I will keep my 2 Atari 1040STE computers to run my bbs and may buy another Atari someday if they ever get there act together with Computers/Software/Support and most of all more that a fue dealers per state. The Army PX (Post Exchange) and Airforce BX (Base Exchange) does not even carry the Atari line but they carry IBM compatables, Amiga, And The Mac. Whats wrong with this picture? (Management?) And I am a devoted Atari user since 1983 don't ask me why (I may go out and by a lynx tomorrow). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 186 Fri Jul 10, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 17:26 EDT When I first joined the Air Force back in 1987, the BX carried the Atari ST line. By spring the following year, they had dropped the ST. About a year or so later, they dropped Apple. Now, to my knowledge, they carry IBM, Tandy, and Commodore (including the Amiga). Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 187 Fri Jul 10, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 23:18 EDT Mark, Nice to hear you're buying a '486. You'll hate it. 640k limit in DOS! 64k RAM segments! A pain in the *ss to program on! Ugly to look at! Gross keyboard, even compared to the sqishykeys on an ST Classic! Butt-ugly system font! Driver conflicts! TSR conflicts! Ugly gross TrueType printouts! S l o w windows! Blechy... I was all set to buy a Mac Quadra. Then I started to think about '486/50 systems to run OS/2. Then I said, forget it. My Atari has six years worth of software sitting here, the OS is screamingly fast even at 8Mhz (compare to Windows on a 16 Mhz '386), and it's only stupid limiatation is the 4M memory limit. Not that bad really, there's only a few things I could do with more than 4M. Then I started looking at the TT article I have from an ancient Atari Explorer magazine. I started to get excited about that. Now, I'm just going to wait for the modular and EXPANDBILE! "Falcon" model, or maybe a nice tower "Falcon". I'll probably scratch off the "Falcon" part right away though, I still don't like the name... ;-) -Chris- ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 188 Sat Jul 11, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 03:39 EDT I'm starting to save for a 386 notebook. I'll hate it, but at least I'll be able to find software and support for stuff. Not to mention I'll have access to a portable system when I'm on the road. I can probably get Norton Commander for cheap now, too. I love my MSTE but I'm tired of being the odd man out, and 386 notebooks are available >>NOW<<. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 189 Sat Jul 11, 1992 S.WINICK at 08:15 EDT Mark, Gosh, for that kind of money you could buy a 'real' computer, one that isn't limited to 640K main memory and 64K blocks at a time. Wait'll you see all the hassle setting up software and hardware will be to do even the simplest of tasks. And talk about conflicts; nearly everything conflicts with something. (We have a 386DX/33 at the store to help entice shoppers to visit an Atari dealership -- it works, most folks who come in looking for a clone leave with an Atari ;-). And for $3000 you can have a really nice TT030, or probably even a MacII or Next. Wait'll you see how slow that clone really is once you hang on all the hardware and software overlays necessary to make it work. A 32MHz TT030 actually RUNS at 32MHz. Most of the time, that 50MHz clone will be running at hard drive access speed. Of course, I will agree that is does make an excellent platform for games -- once you add a sound card, stereo speakers, etc. Of course you could add OS2 so you'd at least get away from MS-DOS's 8-bit operating system on your 32-bit computer. But then you'd probably have even more trouble finding OS2 software that you now apparantly do finding local Atari software. Of course, you could always run MS-DOS in an OS2 window --- how neat, being able to run an 8-bit operating system within a 32-bit operating system window. And you ask what's wrong with Atari's picture? Best of luck with your clone. I certainly hope you grow to like it more than I have the thingie in the good looking tower case at Computer STudio. But then again, I also have more current Atari products to compare it to than a couple of aging 1040ST's. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 190 Sat Jul 11, 1992 S.WINICK at 08:16 EDT Keene, If you need portable computing power, a 386 notebook may well be a very good choice. The price certainly is right and they're definitely available. We've sold a few of them ourselves to customers needing portable power. Hardware- wise, some of them are quite impressive -- and I'm not one who is easily impressed. Software-wise and operating system-wise, well..... that's another story. ;-] Norton Commander would be a good addition -- GEM it's not, but at least it'll make the beastie usable. You might also want to add one of those minaturized track balls specifically designed for the notebooks that hangs comfortably on the side of the keyboard. There again, not as nice as a built-in system, but definitely a worthwhile addition for improved user friendliness. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 191 Sat Jul 11, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 08:29 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: C.Herborth [-Chris-] Well I wish I knew more about the "FALCON" im sure my mind would change if I had some specs on it. I just get so pissed sometimes and say im going to buy a IBM. If you have some info on it please let me know because I Seen nothing from Atari\Bob on this (And prob never will). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 192 Sat Jul 11, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 08:44 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: S.WINICK I have not given up on Atari computers, I have been aloted $500.00 per month to spend on my computer (phone bills, Genie, Software and hardware). Most of that I save for my next computer. i talked to my Dad (Im 35 Years old) he was a Airforce computer programer for IBM back in the 60's and he likes his 486 33mhz he just got (he was in binary programing back then) i told him one year they actualy had languages out for the computers it was like opening up a new world to him. so anyway when I was talking to him last night (trying to make up my mind) decided to wait till 1-Oct-92 when I go home before I go to Korea and check out the system for a month (30 Day Vacation) before I go to Korea. Maybe by then I may get more Falcon educated. since I know nothing about it. the only thing I know (I think) is it has better graphics than SVGA. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 193 Sat Jul 11, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:33 EDT I'm starting to save for a Honda Accord. I'll hate it, but at least I'll be able to find parts and service for it. Not to mention I'll have access to service stations when I'm on the road. I can probably get one with an air-bag now, too. I love my Testarossa, but I'm tired of being the odd man out, and Accords are available >>NOW<<. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 194 Sat Jul 11, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 11:42 EDT Working with people that own Accords and Testarossas, the people with the Accords can find parts, the service isn't $1,000 a day, and they don't draw every cop's attention. The people with Accords seem to drive their car more. And the world is that super expensive cars are out. Jeeps, Volvos, and Acuras are in. So it depends on what you want a computer for. Do you want to use it, or do you want to look at it and say, "this baby is fast!" Btw, I'm still keeping my MSTE. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 195 Sat Jul 11, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 12:48 EDT Mark and all, An upcoming Atari Advantage issue (I think it gets mailed out this week) will feature a review of the Falcon that should spark a new round of discussion. This week's STR features some sneak peeks from unnamed sources that are of interest to anyone following the Falcon story closely. And I have something in the works for a special Realtime Conference sometime in August, where we will have someone from Atari in a position to know all the details about the Falcon....and (don't faint) he'll be TALKING about it and answering questions about it! The details are still being worked out for the conference, so keep an eye on the RT bulletins and Category 1, Topic 11 for further details. It looks like we may very well be chin-deep in Falcon details over the course of the next several weeks. Won't that be a change! - Jeff Williams Asst. Sysop ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 196 Sat Jul 11, 1992 C.HERBORTH [-Chris-] at 12:58 EDT Mark, The "Falcon" is supposed to be released Sept/92 at the Boston Computer Show. If it's on time (Bob Brodie says it is), there should be plenty of information about it by 01-Oct-92. Don't buy a klone. Once you start down the path to the Dark Side of the Force, you cannot turn away. -Chris- Also, Thunderbird strikes again... :) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 197 Sat Jul 11, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 16:11 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: Jeff.W [ST Sysop] Ok well if info will start to flow from Atari maybe it would be worth waiting a fue weeks for. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 200 Sat Jul 11, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:38 EDT Just for the record I'll have to predice that the Falcon would most likely be the computer world's equivalent to a $20,000 Testarossa. Sure, the service might cost a little more, but they won't break down as often as klones (or act broken because your didn't have the necessary degrees in computer science required to set up all those nifty "config.whatthisthing" and "autoexec.confusion" files and correctly setting your DIP switches and jumper shunts.) Sure they cost slightly more than a klone with similar hardware specs, but by virtue of being a krippled klone with Windoze and MeSsyDOG, the klone is roughly 1/2 as fast. Sure they don't have 50,000 word processors and 97,239 spreadsheet programs available, but you only _need_ ONE _good_ program of each type to get your work done. Besides, the majority of klone software is cheap text-based applications with Apple ][ user interfaces, or mega pricey windoze compatable versions. Also, keep in mind that the public domain and shareware Atari offerings are usually _far_ superior to even the classiest klone copyrighted and marketed software. Sure not many people will have them, so you _won't_ be able to trade pirate warez with him/her, or "borrow" expensive programs from work for your own use. But nobody would _ever_ base their purchases on the availability of "free" software, would they? But it sure will be a unique thing of beauty which will surely make it's owners proud, and will make klone owners green with envy. The 520ST did it in '85, and Atari can do it again. It will take the klones another 7 years to catch up!!!! _________________________ /hunderbird 'cause where's the fun in life if you're the same as everyone else?!?!?!!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 201 Sat Jul 11, 1992 J.DERNAR at 22:46 EDT Sheldon..You are exactly right about the true speed of the PC machines. We just got a 486-33 machine to use in our office. AutoCad, WP, Quattro, Dos5.0, and a whole bunch of other junk. I HATE the thing. Everything is more complex than it thould. And overpriced? Let me tell you that big companies think nothing of dropping down big bucks for junk software that no one really has time to learn to use. My rule is that any program that has a manual more than 3/4 of an inch thick should not be purchased. If it is less than 1/4 inch and you can make it run without reading the book....buy it. Setting up DOS and all of it's quirks is misery. The 486-33 is in reality slower than my 520-8 ST. Honestly. People get hung up on speed numbers and boy are they mis-leading. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 202 Sat Jul 11, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:41 EDT We recently picked up a new 486-33 localbus machine. The disk is now as fast as the ST, and the video is as fast as a Crazydots board...32bit on both. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 204 Sun Jul 12, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 04:25 EDT So Jim, how much did that 486-33 local bus system that is now as fast as an ST cost? As much as an ST with a good hard drive and a CrazyDots board? Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 205 Sun Jul 12, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 10:00 EDT Jeff, I hope it ain't gonna be like the last 'NO COMMENT' conference with an Atari official. Hopefully we will learn something this time. :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 206 Sun Jul 12, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 11:34 EDT Wayne, I hope so too. This conference will be taking place immediately before the big Atari Dusseldorf Show, so whatever Atari will be showing there will be fair game in the conference. It's kinda like getting to see the show before everybody else...but without the airfare. :-) - Jeff Williams ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 207 Sun Jul 12, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 18:19 EDT I have a question that hopefully somebody at Atari can answer now... Will the Falcon still support DMA sound in addition to this new rumoured DSP? Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 209 Mon Jul 13, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 00:24 EDT Hmmmm, I have a 486-33 EISA system with Windows 3.1 that FLIES!! and an awsome keyboard... MULTI-TASKING NO memory limits in Windows.. 20 times more software ... GREAT Word Processing packages (AMI PRO) (WinWord 2.0) Excel 4.0 (a spreasheet that BLOWS away anything on the ATARI AWAY.. GEE a user base of 30,000,000 ... Yes DOS sucks!! that will change SOON ... I love my Mega4 ... I love its simplicity... BUT there is just NNOOOOO support for the system... from ATARI, from any major software chain, from MOST local Atari Dealers!!! HEY it does not do anyone any good to sit around and tell ourselves how great we have it.. There IS a lot of work to get done from ATARI and QUICKLY!!! Barely Hopeing... Jerry Richter ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 211 Mon Jul 13, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:14 EDT C.HERBORTH - Sheesh! If the Falcon's going to be "released" in September '92, I would certainly *hope* there's plenty of info about it by October 1st. Did you mean to say "released" or did you mean "introduced"? All that's been said by Atari people (Leonard Tramiel and Bob Brodie, at least) is that the Falcon 030 should be released by late Fall ("late Fall" should be around November sometime, maybe late October at the earliest). J.ALLEN27 - re: localbus --- It's certainly about time they learned how to do things right. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 212 Mon Jul 13, 1992 SFRT-ASST [Kene @ SFRT] at 03:05 EDT I always add two financial quarters to release dates. If things happen sooner it's a bonus. My MSTE was a pleasant surprise. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 213 Mon Jul 13, 1992 M.FARMER2 [Mark Farmer] at 07:18 EDT AKA: King Sparta To: FIFTHCRUSADE Your right dos does suck, but note my Handle King Sparta I was using Sparta DOS (MS DOS for the Atari(Sort of)) so long on the old 8-bit I kind of liked it. That was untill I got my mouse and ST. ;-) To: S.Johnson10 [Steve] It will prob go to germany and about 5 years from now be shiped to the USA for Speedy useage. What I do not understand is why it is 30mhz why not 50mhz. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 214 Mon Jul 13, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 09:27 EDT No, we cannot answer your question. We cannot respond to questions on products which have not been publicly announced. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 215 Mon Jul 13, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 11:17 EDT That killer 486-33, 130Meg IDE w/32bit controller, S3 based 32bit video, mini tower, both floppies, keyboard, IO, 4Megs ram, 256K cache, etc etc costs all of $1,595 without a monitor. The best thing Atari could do would be to take this same design, and add an 040 chip to the motherboard. It would then be a PC _and_ a next generation ST _and_ an inexpensive killer Unix box (with an ethernet addon and bigger HDrive). The addition of an LC040 would only ad $500 to the system price. So, for $2,100 would you buy a 33Mhz 486 and a 33Mhz 040, with 130Meg HDrive, 4Megs, 32bit IDE, 32bit S3 video (up to 1280x1024 16 color), mini tower case, lots of expansion room, with the ability to run PC and ST software, and the option to go to Unix too? It's such an obvious opportunity, take full advantage of the economies of scale of the PC world, add in some truly unique value and capabilities, wrap it in a nice big bow, and you'd have a real winner. Something that apeals to both the full PC market (include an 040 delete option) and reaches beyond. Then put the neat DSP system in another 32bit slot and bring all the super possibilities the Falcon holds to the killer platform. Sure, lots of ST software won't run right away, but all the still supported great software will be easily ported, and others who have left the market will jump back in fast with updates, and Darek has proven you can do a respectable job emulating the ST on a 486...it'd be even easier on a 68040 chip. It's alot like having Bush for another 4 years, or Perot. Keep going with a very similar strategy year after year, or, make a serious break with the status quo and take a plunge into really solving Atari's problems with a daring move. Real guts! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 219 Mon Jul 13, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 23:59 EDT Jeff, Thanks, sounds like it may be worth dropping in. Steve, I wonder if they meant 'Late Fall' THIS year or will it be NEXT year. Anyone wanna bet on which it will be. I'll take next year. Also, I wonder if it will be Class B or Class A. I'll take Class A. You know how the FCC is. :-) Yes, I intend to win this bet :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 220 Tue Jul 14, 1992 N.WEINRESS [Norm] at 00:41 EDT Jim, You need to shop better. I've got an ad in front of me that includes everything you mentioned, except 16-bit HD card, but including SVGA monitor; for $1499. With local bus, $1699. This just proves your point. Atari need only design a motherboard with a PC form factor...the rest is easy pickin's. Of course, there is not enough profit in that for them. They want the whole pie, just like Apple. That's how Apple lost their chance to be number one, but that is lost on them. Norm ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 221 Tue Jul 14, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 02:11 EDT RINGO @ LEXICOR2, No comments about Falcon 030....you are still under NDA Till I tell you different! Just a reminder. :-) BTW for thoses interested AMIGA just anounced their "A3000T" system...it is based on a 33-Mhz 68040 with 32MB RAM 64MB proRAM card ASDG serial Card Sunrise AD1012 Sound card w/ digitizer and full IVP24BIT AV card. This puppy sports a 14,400 baud modem, the audio sample rate is listed at 80,000sps w/ direct to HD sample recording. The system has built in 88MB Syquest removable-media and CD-ROM drive. As far as DTV goes the machine has a full realtime 30 frams per second frame buffer. Builting genlock...ie Video in and video out w/ room for TBC cards and other third party Audio and or Video hardware. This all comes in a tower configuration which is about the same size as most standard PC tower units. No mention of the much feared Toaster...apparently there are several new simular cards which are both faster and less expensive. I mention this new Amiga computer here because I believe that if people are speculating about what the falcon will do, they should have some idea of what ATARIs closest competer is producing and selling. LEXICOR ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 222 Tue Jul 14, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:20 EDT R.GLOVER3 - Yes, the Falcon has still has digital stereo sound, but it's somewhat unclear as to its capabilities. However, it is believed that it has up to 16-bit sound and maybe in multiple channels. The August ST FORMAT says that it has 16-voice, 8-bit digital stereo sound, but I don't think that's correct. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 223 Tue Jul 14, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 09:11 EDT Lee, what Falcon? I don't know anything about them. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 224 Tue Jul 14, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 23:30 EDT Lee @ Lexicor, what does that behemoth Amiga cost? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 225 Wed Jul 15, 1992 C.FLUEGEL at 00:51 EDT ok, ive heard 16 channel 8-bit sound + stereo 16 bit sound and 10 channel 16- bit sound and some other combos -- this makes quite a difference to the Audio engineeres out there, after all 8bit sound is only worth games, and 10 channels of 16bit sound woulds be beyond amazing and worth many thoasands of dollars .... whats up ? (i know, wait for the magazine thats a month late)........ Curt ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 226 Wed Jul 15, 1992 LEXICOR [Lee] at 05:28 EDT Ringo....the Falcon is a bird of prey that feeds on other birds and sometimes Fish? They are illegal to own in the US for the most part. However they can bring very high prices in some forign countries. About the Amiga ...I commented about...it's suggested entry level price is $5.252.00...Like any upgradeable computer platform you can always spend a lot of clammers if you want. Then to you can get some very good deals if you shop...for instance I just purchased a 1.25 GIGabyte internal HD for our Iris which cost only $2K...it normally retails for about 3.5K. Of course the trick is getting a third party unit that is fully compatable. I have found several very powerfull Video tools that will work with the TT, but they are expensive compared to the base cost of the TT so it is hard to convience no Professionals that the TT is a solid choice as a basic animation tool. How ever more and more users interested in doing commerical level computer graphics are giving the TT a try. In one case a new cable TV sattleite company is using the TT. They have started advertising that they will be on the AIR this September. Lets hope Atari gets some credits as was promised. The company is called SFAN. ATARI was very generous through the good offices of Bill Reboch in providing SFAN with ATARI hardware which they could use in getting their Cable company off the ground. LEXICOR ------------