==================================================================== (C) 1992 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== ************ Topic 20 Thu Aug 01, 1991 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] (Forwarded) Sub: Atari "Falcon" Project The August 1991 ST Format quoted Sam Tramiel mentioning "the Falcon project" and other new ST-based machines other than the ST Book and STylus. They're not rumors if big Sam mentioned them personally! 219 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 1 Sun Feb 16, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 08:49 EST Did anyone catch the not-so-subtle hints from Lexicor's Lee Seiler reprinted from a GEnie message in Z*NET? To paraphrase, he says that Atari has loaned him sereral new machines for software development, which he can't talk about, but he says that we will be seeing some "very special and very amazing" software and hardware at the Hamburg show. If someone from such a brilliant software company says we will be amazed, I think we should brace ourselves to be amazed. I am really anxious now to learn more about the Falcon! DOS Boxes: prepare to be leapfrogged! _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 3 Sun Feb 16, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 11:03 EST Thunderbird - Many of us are as excited as you, by the rumors of the new product. But, you have to temper your excitement a tad, because there is a vast time difference between Atari's product announcements and the date of shipment in quantity. Their best effort in recent years was the MegaSTe, which (someone correct my timing here) I believe was only about 5 months in the waiting. In that case, they waited for FCC B. A relatively small company like Atari cannot afford to "fill the warehouses" prior to announcing the product. Part of the process is to first gauge customer reaction to the product, then tell your contractors how many to start making - or maybe go back to the drawing board and make revisions, ala the TT. This all takes time. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 4 Mon Feb 17, 1992 MAS2743 [Mike] at 01:08 EST Or....'fraid to say, perhaps Atari Falcon may not be what we're hoping for. It could be the BIGGEST flop ever made by Atari in years. Why? Well, for one thing, there are no softwares to begin with. Atari is fond of introducing "new" machines but no software support! Shame! If it is gonna be a RISC based, then I'd still doubt that it will BEAT SG Iris Indigo (which uses patented 3D GL programming language with over 400 library calls!) and SG is the major force in the visualization and computer graphics applications. If Atari want or hope to make a DTP specific in the Falcon, I would ignore it. I still believe the ONLY diference will be is the competetively LOW price compare to current state-of-the-art machines. E.KIRMEN, by the way, there is such a thing as VIDEOPHONE now in the Macworld! Stop dreaming and go try the QuickTime technology on the mac Mac IIsi or better (256 colors) and send it over to your friend's video email to see your face via network!! Brilliant, but not perfect! I again, 'fraid to say, doubt that there will be such products, ie. video email (like Apple's QucikTime) for the Falcon TT UNLESS, listend the rule here, UNLESS Atari join the SIGGRAPH and NCGA group to join the standard committee group! Period! I am hoping Falcon will be a UNIX-based so I can eventually hook up to my company's SG Crimson Supercomputer (yep!) or Indigo someday in my office nearby via Ethernet. or is it FDDI? I beg Atari to be MORE OPEn and CREATIVE. If they are not creative, then this tells me it is a possible sign of being too stingy due to lack of public attention. And don;t want to splurge too much money to introduce a product to blow aaway the rest of the computer/workstations on the market. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 5 Mon Feb 17, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:18 EST Why on earth would Atari want to compete with the SG Iris Indigo? I suppose it's possible they would attempt such a feat. However, it would be very unlikely, since I know nobody in the market for a machine in the $25,000 - $75,000 price range. Even if it were truly amazing, I can't imagine anyone (except Vidiot) who could afford to make such lavish expenditure, just to have 'the best' stuff to boast about. The largest market for a new machine would be for a powerful personal PC with graphics superior to VGA, and some type of graphics speed enhancement hardware, excellent sound, and a nice low price. ______________________ \hunderbird P.S. I don't remember _any_ software out for the ST when it first came out. I'll be willing to bet that they sold MORE units THEN, than they do NOW... you know... NOW, with all the software out there. If they make a GREAT machine with little software, I'm sure that nobody would mind. After all, even if it were ST compatible, folks STILL wouldn't be able to take home all those nifty programs they use at work... OR, any of their friends neato collection of software. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 6 Tue Feb 18, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:37 EST So will the BCS introduction of the Atari Falcon/WHATEVER be covered much by the press? I gather some columnists for some of the computer mags will be there, but will there be anything BIG, like CNN doing a piece for Science & Technology Week or anything like that? Maybe we could SUGGEST that to CNN??? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 8 Tue Feb 18, 1992 L.A.POPKIN [Laird Popkin] at 01:08 EST Mike, Atari will not be competing with SGI any time soon ,m , so please stop posting messages complaining about how the ST isn't as cool as a $20K workstation. When the SGI Iris is $2K, then Atari will need to compete with them... While I like the idea of Atari's next generation of machines being compatible with the ST/TT, I have to admit that compatibility with the ST/TT software base isn't going to buy them too much, so at best the new machine should have an ST/TT compatibility "mode" but run new software without the limitations imposed by TOS compatibility. Imagine, for example, Atari shipping a computer that runs Pink/Taligent, or NextStep with Mach -- now *that* would be a machine that could get people excited about Atari. The problem (IMHO) with Atari's planning is that they spend too much time thinking about making cool hardware, and not enough time thinking about how people can use it. Look at Apple -- relatively boring hardware, but a rich OS allows people to get a lot of work done. While cool hardware is nifty, software is what gives people the power to use the machine. Not that the next generation Atari computer shouldn't have cool hardware. But to compete with the other computers out, it needs to have cool software as well. And, needless to say, it needs to be able to interoperate with the other computers out there, and that means networking (Novell, AppleTalk, TCP/IP) and all the related protocols. Someone on the internet has been saying that Atari has announced support for CD-I. That could be an interesting option -- the CD-I chipset is fairly impressive, with multiple planes of graphics, great color resolution, and the option for adding JPEG/MPEG decompression for full motion video from CD-ROM. Add that to a full-function computer, and you could have a blast. And taking a shot at Commodore's CDTV would be an added bonus... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 9 Tue Feb 18, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 21:13 EST I suppose that everyone would like the Falcon to have THX Surround Sound too?!?!? Get real! A certified THX system costs about $12,000 and requires a contractor to install! You can't buy components for THX systems in any stores, either. Only very recently have any consumer liscenses been issued by LucasArts. P.S. I'd sacrifice ST sound compatability if they left out the Yamaha chip ;-) !!!!!!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 10 Tue Feb 18, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 23:13 EST >The problem (IMHO) with Atari's planning is that they spend too much >time thinking about making cool hardware, and not enough time thinking >about how people can use it. Look at Apple -- relatively boring >hardware, but a rich OS allows people to get a lot of work done. >While cool hardware is nifty, software is what gives people the power >to use the machine. EXACTLY! People use software, not hardware. The software is the link between the hardware and the user. Without great software, the hardware is just a doorstop. Look at the Mac on the one hand and the Amiga on the other. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 11 Wed Feb 19, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:11 EST D.ENGEL - I think Mike REALLY likes dreaming! And I think there was ONE piece of software for the ST when it came out. NEOchrome, I think! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 12 Thu Feb 20, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:20 EST J.ALLEN27 - Well, Atari would just have to SAY they nailed down cold-fusion and CNN would bother! L.A.POPKIN - Actually, I think it may have been Motorola that announced that Atari and other companies have "agreed" (I couldn't think of a more appropriate word) to support the new Motorola CD-I chipset. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 13 Fri Feb 21, 1992 MAS2743 [Mike] at 02:52 EST Why not use QuickTime in Falcon? Uh oh, I need someone to mail me a "BrainWave-O-Matic" to brainwash my mind on SGI items...cuz it is too many light years ahead. But still what are you going to use Falcon or 68040TT for? I bet it is called that same old thing: TTe = TT Expanded, like STe rather than STT. It would be a BIG surprise to me if this Falcon project is a RISC-computer like the ATW, in the form of desktop style. Nah....too new to learn parallel processing programming. Perhaps, 68040 with NEW operating system to start anew. Can you say Unix? How come Atari is planning on limiting their Falcon sale to few people? Perhaps, nobody is going to buy Atari, that's why!!! Ask anyone at SIGGRAPH, ACm, or NCGA if they would consider Atari, I bet most will say "Maybe, if they have a good quality service, etc. I might buy it....." Quality service at Atari?? Not today. Mike (mpeg2 is here now and that by the end of 1992, there will be surplus of JPEG/MPEG video board for the PC and Mac and no for Atari! Sorry!) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 14 Fri Feb 21, 1992 B.KING8 [Brien King] at 21:05 EST Mike - Why are you belittling something thats not even out yet? Its really stupid to put something down that you have never even seen! Brien King ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 15 Fri Feb 21, 1992 R.MONFORT1 [LEXICOR] at 21:36 EST Oh, lets see how many days do we have to wait, less than a month for the German show! Not bad I can wait, after all unlike MAS I do not have the cash to run up and buy a MAC Quadra system. So lets wait and see. ------- Good one David! Ringo. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 16 Sat Feb 22, 1992 N.WEINRESS [Norm] at 00:13 EST "Electronic Engineering Times" is qouting a Motorola exec that they have dropped plans for a 68050, but are planning on a major chnage in a new chip (significant architecture changes) and will call it the 68060. There is very little known about it, but one presumes Apple is involved. They did say it would be backwards compatible with the family. (Did you hear a great sigh of relief from Sunnyvale?) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 17 Sat Feb 22, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:46 EST I'm really surprised that you guys use the Brainwave-O-Matic. It's light years behind state-of-the-art memory cleansers. I wish that Irata (The Brainwave-O- Matic maker) would follow the current trend in the industry, and build something like the Elppa Quinta IGS Macro BraneBender Mark XXVII with alpha wave relaxators, REM sleep suppressor with grey matter expansion compensators. Anyone who buys anything less is a penny pinching moron who probably should be locked up or put out of his/her misery. I heard that Irata was working hard on a phased duplex waveguide for the Brainwave-O-Matic-II, but they are wasting their time working on such a fruitless machine. I say that Irata really should concentrate on making something more like the Instant-Brain-Mender 684, except that they should make it pocket size, or at least laptop size, because the not many people own a van to cart the 684 around in! What kind of market research do they think they're doing?!?!?!! Get real! Do _I_ have to tell them everything?!?! ______ ________________ \/\/underbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 18 Sat Feb 22, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 11:27 EST But! But! But!! The Instant-Brain-Mender 684 doesn't produce Renderman compatible files! ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 19 Sun Feb 23, 1992 MAS2743 [Mike] at 02:50 EST Wunderbird - Your brainwave-o-matic item DID NOT work! I want a refund! Your post reminds me of Dan Ankroyd (sp?) as a fast advertising talker. Here I go again: What is new inside Falcon, graphic wisely? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 21 Tue Feb 25, 1992 MAS2743 [Mike] at 02:35 EST Let's see if Falcon can do these UNIX commands: % ls -l | ls -n | ls -s > outfile & (list files using piping and write file and run it in the background) I learned that back in 1983 at R.I.T. Computer Sci lab in NY. Work? & means background jobs.... Mike ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 22 Tue Feb 25, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 03:14 EST ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 23 Sun Mar 01, 1992 S.WHITNEY [IAAD Member] at 03:09 EST Mike- Silicon Graphics is now _licensing_ GL to other companies. If Atari so desired, they could ship it with the Falcon. Your company's getting a Crimson? Which flavor? VGX? Thunderbird- SGI Indigos start at under $10,000. HOWEVER, I don't see why Atari would want to make GL standard. Most people don't need GL. --Steve ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 24 Sun Mar 01, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 08:44 EST Steve - > > Thunderbird- > > SGI Indigos start at under $10,000. > Note the word "start" in the previous sentence... _____________________ \hunderbird P.S. Most people can't afford $10,000 for a necessity like a car, so why expect them to spend it on something they _need_ less. P.P.S. I think that Silicon Graphics should be giving away Indigos... after all, it's the _only_ way to make everyone happy! Oh, Joy! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 25 Mon Mar 02, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:39 EST I just read the bit in Z*Net #9209 about Atari postponing the BCS "unveiling/announcement" of WHATEVER. It also says that this may mean that Atari's new machines may only be shown to developers at the CeBit show in March rather than to ALL. Hopefully, this won't extend the 9-18 month "gestation period" before the new machines are actually released, but then the reason given for Atari postponing the BCS meeting was to conform with Atari's more recent policies concerning not announcing products too far in advance of the actual release. In other words, Atari's afraid of people making further vaporware accusations against them. After considering that the new machines won't be relmid-'93 or so, I am hoping that the machines' features will reflect that. In other words, they better abandon the 8-bit digital sound for a more flexible 16-bit system, have EXTRAORDINARY graphics capabilities (and without crippling it with no support for overscan, etc.), and hopefully have a MUCH more impressive GUI/OS (GEM is fast and friendly, but rather bland and leaves little room for improvement without it being a major overhaul welcoming a lawsuit from Apple! ). Also, a few months ago, I heard a RUMOR that there WOULD be a 16-20MHz 68000 version of the new computers. Would that be worth doing, or will 68030's be inexpensive enough then to make a basic version (either a one-piece like the 1040 for around $500 or a Mega-type for around $700-$800)? Maybe 68EC030's??? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 26 Mon Mar 02, 1992 J.COLE18 [John Cole] at 02:10 EST Steve, I hope Atari doesn't loose 8bit PCM sound on the new machines!!! 1 minute at 8 bits takes 1 meg, at 16 it's 10 MEG!!! while 16 is nessisary for profesional use, VME cards could be easily made (if they do not already exist) to do 16 bit sound. If Atari does choose to go 16, then I hope they retain the 8 bit option. Fidelty-S/N at 8 bit is acceptable to most home users and 16 sound would make large memeory areas and large hard disks a MUST which doesnt leave much room for doing anything else on the machine. And while the basic shapes in GEM are pretty boring, anyone can program in complex user interfaces with tools aready provided. It would be nice to have a large library of User definded objects to link into the smaller developers code so that the small programs would have easy acces to objects other than those in the RCS :-) That and some fair standards for GEM programs would be a welcome step in the right direction. I only with the TOS group was as well off as the UNIX team is, now there is a buch with it's stuff together!! I had the pleasure to meet Ralph Rodrigez and WOW! UNIX is nice and the standards they have adopted would be welcome on this side of the fence! John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 27 Mon Mar 02, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 13:32 EST Rest assured, 8-bit DMA sound is not going away. -- John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 28 Tue Mar 03, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 01:41 EST I don't understand people's complaints about GEM (on the ST). (Great, an invitation for flames. :^) It's very easy to use and quite capable. I use Macs at work (IIcx's with tons o' RAM and full-page monitors) and I find GEM to be much friendlier and easy to use. Sure, it doesn't have QuickTime and all of that garbage/hype, but that doesn't mean it can't support something similar later. Just because Apple/Sun/IBM/SGI announces and markets something "revolutionary/ that's going to change the way we compute" until their blue in the face doesn't mean Atari has to jump on the bandwagon and do the same. Atari's doing fine just the way they are and the way they're headed. Sure, a little kick in the pants doesn't hurt now and then to let them know how we feel, but at least we have a computer company that listens. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 29 Wed Mar 04, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:23 EST J.COLE18 - Sorry, I didn't mean to say 16-bit ONLY. I meant to make it 16-bit but you could still run it as 8-bit. Apple's going to be putting 16-bit sound in their new Mac's and Commodore's coming out with a 16-bit Paula chip for the Amiga and I just don't want to see Atari lag behind. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 30 Wed Mar 04, 1992 J.COLE18 [John Cole] at 19:50 EST Steve, 16 bit may be neat for a few applications, however, I think 8 is more practical. If Atari is going to add capablities (and nothing wrong with having power at the fingertips :-) It would be nice to have a DMA sound chip that did 8/12/16 bit sampled sound (if you really want to get wild, go for quad outputs :-) Hey Atari! Any comments? John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 31 Thu Mar 05, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 16:27 EST Nope ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 32 Thu Mar 12, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 05:27 EST Well, it's the 11th now so CEBIT should have started up by now.... Any word from ANYONE on what Atari had on display in Germany? Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 34 Sun Mar 15, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:59 EST Uh-oh! We may have to kill this topic soon if it's no longer a rumor! Actually, until it's OFFICIALLY announced (or maybe even RELEASED), it should possibly still be considered a rumor. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 35 Wed Mar 18, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:26 EST Okay, so the "Sparrow" was shown in secrecy at CeBIT... Any more info on it? It seems more appropriate to discuss it here since it hasn't really been "officially" announced. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 36 Thu Mar 19, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 02:08 EST Steve, From our end, you're going to have to wait, sorry. No comment from Atari at this point. As John has already indicated, the post from Germany has errors in it. But I assure you, we're *excited*, and we're looking forward to filling you in on the *real* details. In the excitement, let's not get so wound up that ANY rumor is accepted as fact, ok? regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 37 Thu Mar 19, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 20:26 EST Bob, We can deal with what you said, BUT any FIRM idea of a timetable when you can tell us the REAL details? Thanks...Anthony ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 38 Sat Mar 21, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:46 EST BOB-BRODIE - Part of the problem is that I don't really have an idea of what "we're *excited*" means. I think some of us are about as *impatient* as you are *excited*. A.DIPIETRO - Hopefully before hell freezes over! (See Bob! What did I say!?) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 39 Sat Mar 21, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 18:22 EST Steve, Hey, that was a good one!! I share your hopes.... Anthony, sorry....not yet!! regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 40 Mon Mar 23, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:41 EST In case no one else knows about it and it hasn't been uploaded into the ST Library yet, check out file #675 in the Deutschland (Germany) RT (Page 725). It's a translation of an upcoming article in the German Atari magazine ATARI JOURNAL about the Sparrow/Falcon-030 demo at CeBIT. It says there were no details given about it, but that the "demo" included showing high resolution color images in OVER 256 colors (probably 32,768 at least) and hearing stereo CD-quality sound (implying a 16-bit DSP processor). It also says that the machine shown was originally developed under the code name "Sparrow" (the little bird) but that shortly before the show it was given the name "Falcon/030" and that the machine would be equipped with multimedia capabilities (such as the DSP) and would PROBABLY have a built-in 2.5" hard drive. And then it also mentions an "under DM2000 (around US$1200)" price tag and release sometime in Fall '92. I think I'm getting *excited* too, Bob! I hope this is what Atari's going to show at a LATER BCS meeting, but I hope Atari's delaying the BCS announcement doesn't mean a delay to market. I also hope Atari makes a BIG DEAL (i.e. VERY LOUD announcements!!! ) about their new machines. Now if we can just get companies like Wordperfect to get back into Atari development and port their unreleased ST WPv5.1 to the Falcon! Geez! All this optimism is giving me a headache! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 41 Mon Mar 23, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 20:19 EST It is my understanding that the Falcon 030 was NOT publicly shown at CeBit. In fact, my understanding is correct as my partner was at CeBIT. :-) However, I am not unaware of this unit, albeit accurately as opposed to speculatory :-) and it amazes me the sheer amount of comments, rumours, innuendos and general fishing that I have read over the past months. :-) Since anyone that has ever received the actual real specs of the Falcon 030 would be covered under a Non Disclosure Agreement, I might hazard a guess that there has been a lot of guessing, some not far off while others well out in the twilight zone. :-) That said, personally, I haven't been this excited over a piece of Atari hardware since the release of the 520 ST in the summer of 85!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The new VP Sales and Marketing definitely will have the opportunity to be the man of the year when he makes this product not only a household word, but a household item. :-) Us Atari types are with you all the way sir. :-) Nathan @ ISD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 42 Mon Mar 23, 1992 DITEK [David] at 20:53 EST Well my partner was also at CeBit, and I don't recall ever signing a non- disclosure agreement. Anyone want to make me an offer... ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 44 Tue Mar 24, 1992 G.T.GRAY [Gary Gray] at 19:45 EST Well I sure as heck hope that this household world is made more available than the TT has been! I love those calls from Atari "remember those TTs you ordered nearly 5 months ago" I answer with "vaguely"(actually I considered the "whats a TT response?"). Well we have some in, are you still interested?". Good thing I am a more patient guy, than my online persona suggests. Anyway 3 cheers for a 92 edition of the brilliant 85 product. I just hope we aren't all waiting till late 93 for it. I am hoping for better than TT performance at least on the production and availability benchmarks:-). I also want to see it sold through distribution. I don't want to knock Atari Explorer but the latest issues' editorial, statements about thousands of FCC class B TTs in dealers show rooms left me a little bewildered. These TTs Atari supposedly got in were Class A. Maybe they have a preferred dealer list that gets B version machines;) David can you shade faster by DSP,than by FPU? I mean like filled polygons you know. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 45 Tue Mar 24, 1992 DITEK [David] at 21:36 EST Gary -- I'll fill you in as soon as I find out... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 46 Tue Mar 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 23:52 EST ISD - The ATARI JOURNAL article I mentioned doesn't really even TRY to say what the Falcon/030 will be. It just mentions what was SEEN and HEARD (since NOBODY connected with Atari would give ANY details) at the demonstration, which were high-resolution ("near photo quality") color pics (that APPEARED to obviously be in more that 256 colors) and CD-quality stereo sound. It HAS been publicized that Atari 'signed on' to use Motorola's new multimedia chipset and implied that they would be incorporating themakes the DSP chip a safe guess. It also said that some of the Falcon/030 machines will be going to developers within the next six weeks or so, but I don't know how realistic that is unless the Fall '92 release date is true. Also, I seem to remember one developer mentioning a few weeks ago that Atari had loaned him one of the new machines. What were we talking about again? Oh yeah! Anyway, since Atari both fortunately AND unfortunately won't release any details to the public, then "rumors, innuendos and general fishing" is all we have to go on. AND that's why it's here in category 18! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 47 Wed Mar 25, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 21:56 EST What tends to happen in these fishing trips is that our expectations for the new machines will gradually rise. This person mentions DSP, that person mentions true color, the other person is talking 68040, and someone else says expandable on the mother board to 32 meg... Pretty soon, we are all convinced that this thing will be some super machine, selling for $899. And, then, when the real specs are released late this year, we'll be disappointed. We should all flush our minds by thinking 68000, 8mhz, low rez, 1 meg. Then we'll be real happy to see what Atari really is working on. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 48 Thu Mar 26, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 07:19 EST Jim :-) think 16Mhz..... 030 ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 49 Thu Mar 26, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 14:32 EST Jim, You disappoint me.... But go ahead, flush your mind! I'm enjoying all the dicussion myself!! It's gratifying to see the excitement about the new machine. We're looking forward to the time when we can tell all and share all!!!! Despite the silliness of some of the rumor-mongers , there's a lot of neat things in the machine. This fact is borne out by the attendant excitement from the attendees of the demonstration. regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 50 Sat Mar 28, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:19 EST BOB-BRODIE - It seems like the Fall (September?) '92 release date of the Falcon/030 WAS something actually announced, or at least inferred, at CeBIT. Can you at least comment on THAT? Also, can you comment as to whether or not Falcon/030 (or whatever) machines are a matter of WEEKS away from being shipped to developers, as the ATARI JOURNAL article mentions? Also, will we see CNN Headline News saying "Atari announces super-fantastic new computer(s)" closer to release, or will we only hear about them in the Atari publications (if any are still around then )? That last comment isn't intended as a cheap shot, but I'd like to see Atari SHOW their excitement about their products by making a little 'noise' about them. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 51 Sat Mar 28, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 09:56 EST Steve...Atari Corp, hired a new VP Sales and Marketing. I would guess that his first and foremost mandate will be to insure the successful launch of "whatever" new machines "might" be coming out of the pipeline. While I would be pleasantly surprised to see a banner headline on CNN, I fully expect to see lots of action in lots of non-Atari specific publications because this "whatever" DESERVES IT!! :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 52 Sat Mar 28, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 21:45 EST STOP! As I and Bob have stated _numerous_ times.. Atari didn't announce a release date, detail specifications, or anything like that for _any_ new product at CeBIT. Period. As for comments from Magazines about Developer Release of new hardware to Developers... well, I am not at liberty to discuss those kinds of things publicly. Let me state that Developer Affairs are just that: Developer Affairs. They are not to be discussed in public. If Atari were on the verge of shipping new hardware or software to Developers, it would not be discussed by Atari publicly (or by the people who were reported to be receiving Hardware..As you can bet good money that these people would be under Non-Disclosure).. Please.. don't keep asking this type of question over and over again. You will always get the same answer. It isn't going to change. -- John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 53 Sun Mar 29, 1992 ST-REPORT [Lloyd Pulley] at 00:13 EST John, While Atari might not have announced a release date, etc., and while Atari might not publicly discuss new hardware and/or software being sent to Developers, Leonard did touch on both in his conference. > <[Leonard] STRAMIEL> >As most of you know, at CeBIT in Hanover Atari previewed some exciting new >technology. This technology allowed us to generate extremely high quality >graphics and sound simultaneously. The members of the press to which this >was shown were very impressed. > >The first product to incorporate these new technologies will be available >at retail by late fall of 1992 and first developer units will be available >by the end of April. This product will have a 68030 as it's main >processor. As I'm sure you can appreciate, no further details will be >available until product release. It seems to me that Leonard released enough information to keep the rumors fueled. LLoyd Pulley ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 54 Sun Mar 29, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:48 EST Under the "Sad But True" Heading: A friend of mine with access to Internet (and an avid Atari fan) has told me that on that net there is a lot of excitement about the "Falcon" or whatever new machine which was shown in CeBIT. Reportedly, there are numerous complaints from the Amiga sector, because they wish that Amiga was coming out with such a low cost / powerful machine. This is should be really flattering for Atari, however, elsewhere on the net, several discussions are taking place referring to the amazing new "Amiga Falcon" shown at CeBIT. I'm afraid that all this "hinting" and "teasing" about some new and exciting hardware from Atari has left many people confused. If Atari doesn't want to talk about their new hardware until they are ready to announce it, that's their decision. I think it is a good way to go to avoid the "vaporware" flaming, etc. _But_ the teasers must stop also. Not only have they created confusion and started outrageous rumors, but they have created a "feeding frenzy" in the Atari community which is probably counter-productive to sales of existing hardware. Unless, of course, Atari is planning to announce the new stuff _Real Soon_. Thanks for allowing me to opine at you... ___________________ \hunderbird P.S. My car is paid off in June, so any time around then would be an excellent time to sell me a "Falcon". ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 65 Mon Mar 30, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:04 EST TOWNS - If you hadn't noticed, Leonard Tramiel mentioned in the RTC that developer units would be shipping in late April and retail availability should be in late Fall '92. That was probably the only remotely useful information he was able to give for the entire RTC! After reading the transcript of the RTC, I kept wondering if there was any point to it. Supposedly, it was also he who mentioned these bits of info at CeBIT. I wasn't aware that Leonard Tramiel wasn't any sort of credible source of information! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 68 Tue Mar 31, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:38 EST DARLAH - Leonard's RTC is being discussed here in the Falcon topic because he mentioned the Falcon/030 (or "Sparrow") in it as far as availability is concerned. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 69 Tue Mar 31, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 09:06 EST I realize that but please leave the Falcon portion in here and the rest in the other topic. It makes life easier, believe me. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 72 Thu Apr 02, 1992 AFINKEL [andy] at 18:20 EST Thunderbird: The majority of the complaints were that the person posting about the falcon to the amiga newsgroup on Usenet posted the exact same message over 100 times. andy ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 73 Sat Apr 04, 1992 L.SEILER [LEXICOR] at 01:59 EST Bob Brodie? I am glad you are having so much fun with the Rumors! regaurding suposed secret machines that may or may not exist? I don't think it is so exciting....to spend many sleepless noghts trying to get photreal art ready ..I cam't mention res or numbers of colors....the NDS you know......for Cebit. BTW you never called me...I wanted your opinion on my work and what some of the reactions were to my photoreal efforts? even if you saw them on a nonexisting machine...... I mean rumored machine.......or what ever it may have been... that might have been there.......I think I confused my self here....any way did you like the efforts? In any case did this message add some fule to the Ol'e rumor mill? :-) Check out the ISD Booth and the Leonardo card that J. Allen is showing for us! you will love the 24Bit color slide show and breif animations!!!! Lee Seiler At ACE tommorrow, ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 74 Sat Apr 04, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:24 EST andy: I still think it's funny that the Amiga people are suffering the "Behind the times" syndrome instead of us Atari folks. It seems to me that the Commodore CD-I machine is consuming much of Commodore's time/resources, and they have nothing similar to the Falcon planned anytime soon. Maybe Nolan Bushnell's really a double agent secretly helping Atari by leading Commodore astray??? Lee: Cut that out! You can't do photoreal artwork on a rumored machine! You are only capable of creating "rumored photoreal artwork" on this type of computer. Everyone knows that! ;-) P.S. For those of you whom believe TOS isn't as nice as windows: At my workplace, Windows 3.0 was recently installed in our art dept. After that, we received the latest update of Ventura Publisher for Windows. After using it for less than a month, the Windows version was sent back, because it was monumentally SLOWER than our previous version which happened to be based on PC GEM. I can hardly wait to get a Falcon, so I can bring in Pagescream and set it up on my desk to "Get my documentation done faster." ;-) (evil grin) _____________________ /hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 75 Sat Apr 04, 1992 R.MONFORT1 [LEXICOR] at 11:26 EST D.Engel. Rumored Photorealistic work! Well for the non-rumored photorealistic artwork check out the Leonardo and the animation previewer at ACE. Ringo. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 76 Sat Apr 04, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 14:50 EST I would appreciate it if you are going to illude to things that you have signed a non-disclosure for, Lee.. that you do it in Email to Bob. -- John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 77 Sat Apr 04, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 18:42 EST Don't worry John.... none of us saw it. :-) How goes it? Ralph @ STReport International Online Magazine ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 78 Sun Apr 05, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 03:45 EDT Things are warm, busy, and exciting. Actually, Lee didn't say anything wrong.. I just don't like people going "nah.. nah.. I got to see something you didn't! nah.. nah.." It just makes people mad! I hope all is well with you, Ralph. I bet the weather is great down there right now -- John Townsend ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 79 Sun Apr 05, 1992 N.STEEL at 06:01 EDT T @Atari, I read your message to mean that the NDS prevents Lee from even alluding to the 'rumored' machine. Is that right? Sounds to me like Lee is a bit pissed about a lack of appreciation for his work, and he is merely expressing that. I didn't see any great secrets leaked. Did anyone out there, manage to deduce anything more about these 'non- existant/rumored' machines from Lee's post? Apart from the fact that he used a highly subjective term like 'Photoreal' :-) N.Steel:-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 80 Mon Apr 06, 1992 N.WEINRESS [Norm] at 00:39 EDT Towns, If everything I've heard about the facility in Sunnyvale is true, you _work_ at Disneyworld!! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 81 Mon Apr 06, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:52 EDT You know, "photoreal" implies (at least to me! ) better than VGA/SVGA/XGA graphics. Like 1024x768 or better with lots and lots (32K, 64K, or better) of colors. Not TRUE COLOR, but in the vicinity! You better watch your language, Lee! In the Deutschland RT a few days ago, someone left a message saying they were skeptical of Atari unless there were "a few expensive funerals" in California. I wasn't sure if the person meant the Tramiels or the 'other' computer companies! Let's hope Atari gets it right this time around. Does anyone know if Commodore's up to anything other than trying to push CDTV and _trying_ to get people to buy the super-expensive A3000 (with the $500 rebates)? I know several Amigans and they all think Commodore doesn't know what they're doing with the CDTV thing. You know, if we could just get something like the Video Toaster on another platform (and WITHOUT the Amiga 'guts' in it!), it might be possible to knock the Amiga off the top of the DTV market. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 82 Mon Apr 06, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 22:29 EDT Lee...read the TAF Topic ACE 92 show CATegory 11, TOPic 6, in which many of us, myself included, praise the awesome display using a TT, RAMed up nicely :- ), THE Leonardo card and your amazing work on the slide show. Sadly, I couldn't get the animations working. I think we ran out of RAM (groan). THANK YOU for sharing them with us for the show. Jim has both the Syquests and card back with him in Andover today. I saw something running something else, sometime this past time period. It might have, hypothetically speaking, worked, and looked awesome. I'd get more specific as I certainly appreciate Lee's work, but I prefer reading Steve's posts unencumbered by any touch of fact. :-)] ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 83 Tue Apr 07, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:33 EDT After reading the latest Z*Net, I got the impression that the Falcon/030 MAY only be available in a 1040-style (or 1040-like) case (for "reasons which will become obvious and very satisfying to all"). I hope this isn't true because I've already decided that my next computer will be a 'desktop model' (i.e. seperate CPU unit, keyboard, and monitor) and don't want that to end up being a reason NOT to buy a new Atari system. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 84 Wed Apr 08, 1992 R.GRANT11 [Ron @ GXRSYS] at 12:27 EDT >S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:33 EDT > >After reading the latest Z*Net, I got the impression that the Falcon/030 MAY >only be available in a 1040-style (or 1040-like) case (for "reasons which will >become obvious and very satisfying to all"). I hope this isn't true because >I've already decided that my next computer will be a 'desktop model' (i.e. >seperate CPU unit, keyboard, and monitor) and don't want that to end up being >a reason NOT to buy a new Atari system. > Steve: They weren't kidding when they said "reasons which will become obvious and very satisfying to ALL"! Have Patience. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 85 Wed Apr 08, 1992 DENNYA [Denny Atkin] at 13:49 EDT In other words, if you don't like the Falcon 030's case, you can get the Buzzard 040 which will have a nice detachable keyboard. ;) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 86 Wed Apr 08, 1992 J.LYONS16 [JPL] at 22:45 EDT Why would it be "very satisfying" to anyone to have one of Atari's new (unannounced) 030 machines in a 1040 style case? I really wish Atari would get away from the game style case. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 87 Thu Apr 09, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 16:08 EDT You have to understand that the 1040 style cases for the lowest end of the line are just fine. For example, look at the Amiga 500. Same thing.. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 88 Thu Apr 09, 1992 ST-REPORT [Lloyd Pulley] at 19:10 EDT JPL, >>Why would it be "very satisfying" to anyone to have one of Atari's new >>...030 machines in a 1040 style case? One reason that I can think off.....upgrades!! Being able to plop a new '030 motherboard into your old 1040 case. I do NOT know if this is _the_ reason, it is only _a_ reason. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. My personal opinion only ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 89 Thu Apr 09, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 21:32 EDT I agree with John T. on this one. The low end of the line should be "cost concious," and that is what the 1040 case is. Give Atari time to build their new product line (assuming that the banking community gives them time..). I am sure that a Mega/TT case will follow. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 90 Fri Apr 10, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:15 EDT R.GRANT11 - The reason I'm worried about it ONLY coming in a 1040-like case is because that kind of casing is one of the reasons ST's seem like "game machines." When I was upgrading from my 520STm to my 1040STE, I was a bit hesitant at first because I didn't like the 1040 case...ESPECIALLY with the 'side-access' disk drive and MIDI ports, and horribly positioned mouse/joystick ports. I also hate the keyboard (although I heard the keyboard has been/will be significantly improved on the new machines) and it still bugs me how hot the power supply gets due to poor ventilation within the case (I just noticed I have a few brown spots in the 'ventilation ridges' on the top of the case directly over the power supply). However, I guess I will be "very satisf[ied]" (that's what the claim was!) with the new case, so what am I worried about? I still INSIST that Atari needs the 'comeback' of some major developers (like WordPerfect, etc.) for some applications for the new machines for it to 'work' this time. By the way, I'm going in for an operation Friday morning and if anything should go wrong, I leave my incessant, sarcastic pessimism to all of you! Of course if all goes well, I may be back while under the influence of pain killers, so be forwarned! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 91 Fri Apr 10, 1992 Z-NET [John Nagy] at 02:18 EDT Re: horrible joystick/mouse port location: I remember the last time I had to plug in my mouse... it was when I got a new computer. In other words, no big deal, really. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 92 Fri Apr 10, 1992 B.KING8 [Brien King] at 02:28 EDT I don't think the 1040 Style case is a good idea. How much more would it cost to make it look like the Mega ST or Mega STE? If it costs between $50- 100, I would pay that much more for it. Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper for Atari just to make one style of case (ala the MegaSTE and TT) and design the motherboards to fit the cases? One of the complaints about the Amiga 600 is that it looks like a TOY because of its size and the case its in. Brien Just say NO to 1040 Cases. :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 93 Fri Apr 10, 1992 R.GRANT11 [Ron @ GXRSYS] at 02:29 EDT Steve: I heartily wish that your incessant, sarcastic pessimism will be with us for a few years to come Seriously, good luck with the operation. I know we'll be seeing your doped up postings in a few days....:-) As for 'claims' or 'satisfaction', you will NOT get an answer from anyone in the know. The 'new Atari' aims to stop introducing new product sitting on the traditional pedestal, and instead introduce them sitting on pallets of shippable units. Really, there have been enough people who have signed non-disclosure agreements dropping not-so-subtle hints about WHY they feel you'll be 'satisfied'. Why are you so anxious to have these people break formal contracts, just so you can know more about a product that ISN'T AVAILABLE yet? Ron Grant ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 95 Fri Apr 10, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 13:43 EDT Steve.. Trust me, we are aware of the heat factor involved in a 1040 style case and we will solve that problem in future machines. I can't really say much more without getting myself in big time trouble! BTW.. Good Luck with your operation. I hope it isn't anything serious. Despite the fact that you occasionally get on my nerves, you help to make the ST RT a more interesting place! Get well soon and bring back that sarcastic pessimism ASAP! That's an order! ;-) Imagine.. Steve online with Pain Killers! Ouch.. I could need some just to keep up! -) Seriously, Good Luck to you! -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. PS. Ron does bring a valid point. I can't really go into much detail.. See, I have a VERY strong Non-Disclosure with Atari.. It's called a Paycheck! And believe me, I don't want to violate this NDA ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 96 Fri Apr 10, 1992 B.WILLIS3 [Bill] at 20:04 EDT John, Solved the heat problem, eh? Hmm... So it's true then, right? The new Atari machine will feature LIQUID NITROGEN COOLING, right? (gosh, I love rumors... ) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 97 Fri Apr 10, 1992 J.LYONS16 [JPL] at 20:09 EDT I'd be willing to pay another $50-$100 for a bigger case (mini-tower?) and a separate keyboard. What do clone keyboards cost, $69 retail? If you pay more than $50 for a case you're probably in a hurry and not shopping around. If I could drop a new 030 motherboard into a 1040 case, I'd much rather drop it into a mini-tower. Makes it much easier when you want to add things to your system. JPL ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 98 Fri Apr 10, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 20:14 EDT Brien - Actually, the major costs to the various cases is in purchasing the plastic molds. If they stick to using existing molds, there will be no major new expenses. That would be the case (no pun intended) with either the 1040 or TT cases. And, I believe it is always important to have a price leader machine, which tends to draw in the first time computer user. The best way to do that is with a 1040 case. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 100 Fri Apr 10, 1992 B.KING8 [Brien King] at 23:48 EDT Jim - Price does not always dictate sales. Look at how many clones there are. If Atari put thier new machines in boxes or towers then it would make A LOT more people happy (including me). I love the TT's case compared to the ST's (I have both to compare) and I hate using the ST (not just because of the speed, graphics, desktop, etc..) but because it has a detachable keyboard that I can put in my lap, etc... Its also a lot easier to put a monitor on top of my TT then it is to put one on top of my 520ST. Its called saving space, and ergonomics. This is just my opinion.... Brien ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 101 Sat Apr 11, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:43 EDT ST-REPORT - Lloyd, "plop a new '030 motherboard" into a $10 plastic case??? Whoops! I forgot the keyboard, so make it $20. J.NESS - I can see the 'cost' thing, but the fact that there would be more people than myself interested in spending more for a 'modular' system doesn't seem to be "satisfying to all." Besides, chances are that only current Atari owners are going to buy the machine anyway, so what market does it have? NOTE: This is a pre-medicated-Steve post! Hereafter are post-medicated-Steve posts! If anyone's interested in some info on the Motorola DSP56001 chip, it's an 88- pin high-speed CMOS "56-bit general-purpose digital signal processor" -- that's what Motorola calls it. A 20MHz version (I've heard newer versions run up to 50MHz) is capable of 10 MIPS with 24-bit data. Main sections of the chip are the program controller, data ALU, x and y memories, and interface connections. Two examples of the power of this chip are: "Real-time stereo, 10 bands per channel (20 bands total), graphic equalization processing 88,200 16-bit samples per second via port C." "In about 3.5ms, it can do a 1024-point complex fast Fourier transform (FFT)." The above information is from the Dec.'89 issue of BYTE magazine (I just picked up an old BYTE magazine my brother had lying around his room and happened across this series of "IN DEPTH" articles on image and sound processing. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 102 Sat Apr 11, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 01:49 EDT Hmm, if that is the DSP that is 'rumored' to be in the new system then it should be capable of some serious audio performance. I notice a reference to 'graphic equalization processing'.... is it safe to assume this little gem ALSO handles video? Hmm again .... As for the '1040 style' case debate.... Though I echo the preference to a 'mini tower' design I'm going to wait until I actually see what this new system can do AND what it will cost in the real world.... I've heard too many 'you'll see why' and 'trust me, you'll be happy' remarks from folks I know and who's honesty I respect to jump to too many bad conclusions. Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 103 Sat Apr 11, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 02:46 EDT If Atari would look at the long-run cost effectiveness of it all, it might be better to design a new case. Eventually (be it five years ago or ten years from now), I think ALL computers will have to be upgrade-friendly (access to internals for memory upgrades, ability to plug in boards, etc.). Take the time now to design one mother-of- a-case that can be used for years to come and you've got slick-looking machines in similar casings for everyone to 'oooh' and 'ahhh' at. Live And Direct [1:04 AM-11/Apr/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 104 Sat Apr 11, 1992 SLP at 10:43 EDT Personally, I prefer a small, slim case with detached keyboard, and an over all minimalist look. It evokes a sense of power, simplicity, and comfort. Now let's not forget that the 1040 case machine is considered to be the low end of the new line. Do you want a Falcon for free? Buy a couple thousand shares of Atari stock, now that it has slipped to 2.25 a share. When the new machine is announced, you will probably have enough profit to pay for it and still make better than T Bill rate on your money. By the way, I know this is a bit off topic, but I've accidently stumbled onto this internal Atari Memo. To: All employees Re: Travel policy update Date: March 31,1992 Due to budget constraints, the following policies are announced regarding employee travel on official business. These policies are effective immediately. TRANSPORTATION -------------- Hitch-hiking in lieu of commercial transportation is strongly encouraged. Luminescent safety vests will be issued to all employees prior to the departure on business trips. Bus transportation will be used only when work schedule requires rapid travel. Airline tickets will only be purchased in extreme circumstances, and the lowest fares will be used. For example, if a meeting is scheduled in Mobile, Alabama, but a lower fare can be obtained by traveling to Los Angeles, then travel to L.A. will be substituted for travel to Mobile. LODGING ------- All employees are encouraged to stay with relatives and friends while on Company business. If weather permits, public areas such as parks should be used for temporary lodging sites. Bus terminals, train stations, and office lobbies may provide shelter in periods of inclement weather. MEALS ----- Expenditures for meals will be limited to an absolute minimum. It should be noted that certain grocery chains such as Costco, Safeway, and Albertson's often provide free samples of promotional items. Entire meals can be obtained in this manner. Travellers should also become familiar with indigenous roots, berries and protein sources available at their destination. If restaurants must be utilized, travellers should find "all you can eat" type salad bars. This will be especially effective of employees travelling together, as one plate can be used to feed an entire group. Employees are also encouraged to bring their own food when on business trips. Cans of tuna fish, Spam and Beefaroni can be consumed at your leisure, without the unnecessary bother of heating or other costly preparations. ENTERTAINMENT ------------- Entertainment while travelling is strictly discouraged. If such extravagances are required on client contracts, the client should be encouraged to pick up the tab. Such action will save money, while the customers that we are concerned about spending money on providing good services, not on useless frivolities. The hospitality provided our clients who visit our facility shall also be tasteful, yet cost effective. In lieu of extravagant dinners, a picnic table will be placed in the parking lot near the dumpster; a garden hose will be made available for liquid refreshment. MISCELLANEOUS ------------- All employees are encouraged to come up with innovative techniques in an effort to save Company dollars. One enterprising individual has already suggested that money could be raised to defray travel expenses during airport lay overs. In support of this idea, red caps will be issued to all employees prior to their departure so that they can earn tips by helping other travellers with their luggage during lay over periods. Small plastic roses will also be available to employees so that sales may be made, as time permits. Your cooperation in following these travel policy guidelines will help us greatly in meeting our Company goals, and will result in a greater portion of a possible team bonus being paid to each employee next year. (just a joke, of course.) Scott ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 105 Sat Apr 11, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 14:34 EDT Brien - I also would not buy anything in a 1040 case. But, in 1986 I did. I upgraded from a TI99/4a computer. You really don't think there are any new young users left in the world, who would go for a cheap and dirty low end computer? You may be right, I have done no research, but I just can't believe that newbies go right into a $999 machine. Scott - I like the memo. Only thing is, I work for a major corporation, dripping in money, and our memos are disturbingly similar to that one. (probably why the corp is dripping in money, and I'm not..) -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 106 Sat Apr 11, 1992 WALLY at 20:24 EDT Howdy, Honestly, does it really matter what the computer looks like? I hate the big- box/tower/IBM look. I prefer the looks of my 1040STe, but if the computer does what I want, I'll buy it regardless of the looks. John N., how true! I think the last time I plugged a joystick and mouse into my computer was just over two years ago. Wally ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 107 Sun Apr 12, 1992 B.KING8 [Brien King] at 00:03 EDT Wally - I think it makes a world of difference. First impressions are the lasting impressions. For example, look at Windos 3.x, its selling like hotcakes. Why? I doubt its because its "FAST" or "INTUITIVE" or makes your life easy. I think its because it looks great. What does VGA with 256 Colors do for a user as far as productivity or ease of use? Nothing, but people demand it because "It looks good". If they do decided to go with the 1040 Style, I would hope the would offer another version that comes in a TT case or something similar. I would rather have one big box where I can put all my HD's, Floppies, CD ROM Drives, etc.. all in one place and not have to take up all my desk space. My TT takes up about 1/3 of my Desk, while my 520 Takes up the other 2/3. What are they going to do about the monitor? Where will it sit? I would assume that its going to be a VGA/SVGA monitor at a minimum (if the rummors are true, which I hope they are!). With a BOX I can set the monitor right on top. I too will buy it regardless of its looks, but thats only because I'm a fanatic about Atari Hardware. I just wish they would get away from the 1040 case. Well enough of my babling.... Back to the Falcon/Sparrow discussion... Brien King ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 108 Sun Apr 12, 1992 G.GRAHAM9 [Glenn] at 00:07 EDT As for the case, I would gladly pay more for a Mega style or tower even as an option over a 1040 style case. They can't possibly be considering using the same mushy keyboard could they? I want a new Atari but one 1040 case is enough. Anyway, the main thing is that Atari rolls out this mystery machine and the sooner the better! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 109 Sun Apr 12, 1992 N.WEINRESS [Norm] at 00:13 EDT Hey, I invented DEKA to be able to have a detachable keyboard of my choice (PC keyboards go for $25-30 retail and I have several). If i ever get a new machine, I've already got drives and power supply in a separate case. If the new machine is inexpensive, great. I can lose the 1040 style case in five minutes. And yeah, I'm a stockholder... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 110 Sun Apr 12, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 00:36 EDT I have to agree with nixing the 1040 style case. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 111 Sun Apr 12, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:42 EDT R.GRANT11 - Well, it was only the removal of all four of my wisdom teeth, so I wasn't really worried to much. These pain killers are fun, though! JEFF.W - Thanks! I think a lot of chocolate malts will help a lot while I'm all swollen up for the next day or two. TOWNS - Maybe Atari's found a way to reduce the whole motherboard into one chip? And thanks! I'll try to keep tossing as much sarcastic pessimism as I can. By the way, as a bit of an aside, I REALLY like the new Intel commercials because there's at least one that says something to the effect of "Do you want to run your Windows software fast? Then get a '486 machine!" Yep! That's what you have to do to get Windows applications to run with any decent speed...unlike TOS! Geez! So far I haven't said anything negative about Atari in this post. Maybe I should do everyone here a favor and always take pain killers. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 112 Sun Apr 12, 1992 WALLY at 03:22 EDT Howdy, Brien, understood. I (call me strange) like the looks of my 1040STe. I also like the feel of the keyboard (and I do manage 50wpm at 95+% accuracy with same). Guess I'm a dinosauer. Regards, Wally ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 113 Sun Apr 12, 1992 Z-NET [John Nagy] at 14:20 EDT I see nothing wrong with the bottom of the new line being in the one- piece case. Why ditch it when it is convenient? To imagine that there won't be a "complete lineup" is not to be using your imagination. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 114 Sun Apr 12, 1992 C.OATES2 at 20:41 EDT I too don't like the 1040 case (having owned two so far) and was ready to upgrade to a mega STE when I heard the first news about the "Farrow" or "Spalcon" or whatever. I seem to have fallen into what Atari wanted to avoid, since I will delay my purchase until the new machine comes out. However, I suggest but (scuse) buying the machine with "upwardsly compatible" peripherals and upgrading when a more aesthetically pleasing design is available. The market for a used one should be pretty good, especially if it has what it is rumored to, maybe people will be switching TO Ataris for a change ;-) Anyway, I'm staring my savings now, and expect to have a good chinck o' (pardon, chunk..) cash when it DOES finally come out... Chris ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 115 Mon Apr 13, 1992 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 00:03 EDT Re: the idea that the 1040 case is necessary so that Atari has a "budget machine" So, is Commodore the only people Atari is competing with? You don't see a low- end Mac with an integrated keyboard-CPU, nor any MSDOS clones (and Lord knows, they are _cheap_). Why should Atari have _any_ computer that does not look adequately like a computer? As for the plastic and molds, why not just use the Mega molds/cases? Most computers can't be told apart without looking at the nameplate anyway. Leave the 8MHz STe in the 1040 case, price it as a budget computer/game machine, and put the Falcon into a Mega case. mike.k ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 116 Mon Apr 13, 1992 G.GRAHAM9 [Glenn] at 00:21 EDT Mega Case!!!!!!!!! And I hope we don't mean the %&$+*(! Mega Ste/TT Case! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 117 Mon Apr 13, 1992 J.COLE18 [John Cole] at 00:29 EDT To add another opinion on this, If you include the monitor in the system, I dont mind a two piece system (console and monitor) however, what really makes it difficult is the HD. Adding a Hard disk right now makes it a 3 piece system that is hard to fit on any desk. While you can add the monitor on top of the HD (as I do) the HD and 1040 dont fit on the same desk! If atari does make this a 1040 style for, hmmm.... what to call it, 'New machine' :-) then I hope they add enough space for a small style HD internally and a power supply to drive it and any future expansions. I think in todays market, a Hard disk is nessisary for even the home area. For a new professional line, I agree, several professional looking desktop and tower models are nessisary for Atari to be taken seriously in todays busness maket. Oh, well we will all see! John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 118 Mon Apr 13, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 09:54 EDT The bottom line is simple.... one piece units are passe`. They offer no real benefit to the buyer. Two piece units are the only way to go... The rest of the industry should already be telling people that very clearly. Ralph @ STReport International Online Magazine ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 119 Mon Apr 13, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 17:44 EDT Steve, Oohhh. Wisdom teeth! I still have to get mine out one of these days. Enjoy the medication! ;-) Dan ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 120 Mon Apr 13, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:50 EDT Rumor Decoder Central Here: "Reasons which will become apparent and pleasing to everyone" for having a one piece case MUST mean that the Falcon is actually going to be the successor to the STacy and laptops are usually one-piece systems, and that would certainly please everyone I know. ;-) Of course, it could mean that the Falcon is the "low-end" Atari, so if you want one that looks like a real computer, you'll have to spend more $$$. It just makes it that much harder to prove to an MS-DOS user that these machines are superior when they look like toys. I guess the annoying thing is the hanging question: How long AFTER the eventual release of the Falcon will I have to wait for them to provide me a detatchable keyboard? ____________________ /hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 121 Mon Apr 13, 1992 M.TETZLAFF [ Mike ] at 21:44 EDT Glenn G. I must have missed someting-whats wrong with the Mega STe/TT Case? Mike T. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 122 Mon Apr 13, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 22:50 EDT Mike Keller - Tandy has had DOS boxes in 1040-style cases for a few years, now. It is their price leader. Regarding the molds for the Mega cases... I would love that, too, but you want to bet whether anybody at Atari has any idea where those molds are? They haven't been used for about three years, and Atari sold the plant they were used in. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 123 Tue Apr 14, 1992 M.POCHE [Mick] at 01:30 EDT I'll throw my two cents into the "Falcon" case controversy. I've been trying to figure out what could be "pleasing" about putting yet another Atari computer into a 1040 case, and haven't come up with an answer yet. I've owned a 520FM, and now have a MegaSTE, and can say without a doubt that I prefer a detached keyboard. Also, getting inside of the MSTE/TT case for repairs/upgrades is _alot_ easier. And then, there's always the "professional" look that comes with a 2 piece case, especially a mini tower, which would be too cool. But.... I'll give Atari the benefeit of the doubt and see what they have up their sleeves. Hopefully, we'll all be pleasantly surprised! M.TETZLAFF- Some people don't like the MSTE/TT case, and some even hate it. It's been somewhat affectionatly dubbed the "wedding cake" case. Personally, the only thing that I don't like is what a big footprint it has. I think the original Mega case was the best. Simple, yet elegant. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 124 Tue Apr 14, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 02:11 EDT The new "consumer" Mac is supposed to be one piece, like a cut down 1040, connect to a TV or monitor, and list for $399 or $499, and have at least an 020 or maybe an EC030. We'll find out in October. The Tandy unit is another example, as is the Amiga 600. Looks to me like "the industry" is saying the 1040 case IS the right way to go ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 125 Tue Apr 14, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 05:55 EDT As far as the case goes, I don't really care one way or the other as long as they get rid of those silly slanted function keys! I do, however, prefer the detached keyboard. I, too, was not enthused about the MSTe/TT case until I bought my MSTe. The functionality of the case has never really been stressed. Being able to get to all (well almost all - not the 881 socket) the various 'user upgradable' area by just undoing ONE screw is a wonderful idea! As Frank LLoyd Wright said, "form follows function." Mike Allen P.S. I still don't understand why the keyboard cable comes out of the RIGHT side of the keyboard when it plugs into the LEFT side of the MSTe! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 126 Wed Apr 15, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:50 EDT J.COLE18 - It has been said that there is a VERY GOOD possibility that the 1040-like Falcon/030 case will house a small (2.5") hard drive, which DOES make it a little more appealing. However, I still INSIST on a seperate keyboard model (without having to buy the Falcon/040). You could use the same motherboard for both systems and maybe add a daughterboard or two to the desktop model for possible future expansion. I just KNOW that the next computer I'm going to buy will have a seperate keyboard AND have a front- loading disk drive. If an Atari system doesn't suit these needs, sobeit! D.MCNAMEE - I'm enjoying the medication right now as I type! I'm running out of it, though, so I'm trying to stretch it as far as I can. I've had to do a lot of proofreading for these messages I've been writing since Friday night. The 1040's keyboard is bad enough without the user being slightly oblivious! D.ENGEL - I was thinking that it could be possible to put a detachable keyboard on a 1040-like machine (i.e. will snap in and out of the main unit), so maybe we COULD have a one-piece unit AND a detachable keyboard??? M.TETZLAFF - What's wrong with the MSTE/TT case? Ever hear of the phrase "non- aesthetically pleasing"? That's the worst looking design for a computer case ever...well, for any SERIOUS computer! What I want to know is what Atari's 'goal' is? No matter what anyone says, it's difficult to think of a one-piece computer like the 1040 as a 'serious' computer. As long as you keep making them LOOK like toys (even the built-in RF modulator on the 1040's make them seem more like a game machine), that's what they'll be SEEN as. Also, until Atari does SOMETHING to 'distinguish' their computer systems (i.e. make people think of Atari as a computer company rather than as a game machine company that also makes a few computers), Atari computers are going to continue to suffer from the enormous image problem here in the US. They MAY even want to consider selling their computers under a different name (i.e. the Falcon/030 from "So-And-So Computer", a 'division' of Atari Corp.)...SERIOUSLY!!! Name recognition is EASILY the biggest problem Atari faces (which falls under marketing), in my opinion, and they've NEVER done anything about that basic problem, as far as I've seen. Leonard Tramiel said that Atari's always been a consumer electronics company. Maybe this says something. Until Atari can think of ITSELF as a real computer company, you can't really expect others to. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 127 Wed Apr 15, 1992 S.FEENEY [Shaun] at 05:27 EDT I'd like to know how Atari does so well over in European countries, did they get a "headstart" on the other computer companies or what? Why are Atari computers so widely accepted overseas? Do all the new products come out over "there" first or what? What is the meaning of all this :)? Do "they" undergoe this massive surge of rumors when word gets out? Comments please! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 129 Wed Apr 15, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 14:55 EDT Shaun.. one of the online magazines recently had a little article about who has what percentage of market share in the various European countries. To summarize.. according to the magazine, we are number one in France, a VERY close second in Germany, 2nd or 3rd in Italy, and 4th or 5th in England. I know for a fact that the information on England is wrong. We have a much larger share than that. One note: The information talked about computer market share. In the various countries, the markets are completely different. For example, in France and Germany, Atari STE/TT computers are used for general purposes including everything from Games to DTP to Board Layout. In England, the ST is one of the most popular game machines. So, as you can see the markets are different and different focuses. (This may explain the large difference in the amount of our market share.. They could be talking strictly about personal computers and are considering the ST a "game" machine) Anyway, just some thoughts.. -- John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 130 Wed Apr 15, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 17:14 EDT Steve, ;-) I hope the surgery went well, and you aren't in too much pain. I have to quit putting mine off, but I've heard way too many wisdom teeth horror stories. I even had a friend almost die in the chair on his. He had an allergic reaction to the anastesia. Dan ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 131 Wed Apr 15, 1992 S.FEENEY [Shaun] at 22:34 EDT John, thanks for the thoughts and facts. Are you saying that the reason for the difference in some markets having a larger share could be because they are more game, DTP oriented? I can understand there are different markets and such, but did Atari concentrate in these places first and with more marketing "force?" I can guess that Atari products caught on like other "fads" do here in the USA. It seems like almost all "fads" (not meant to cutdown Atari) of these start over seas and I guess Atari got the jump on the other companies (makes sense to me). Do other companies like Commodore exist over there? It would be neat to visit these places and see full blown ads for Atari products! It would be even better if it were like that here in the USA :). These are good things to know :). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 132 Thu Apr 16, 1992 N.BEDY [Mike Bedy] at 01:47 EDT Don't the Atari computers have to have an RF port for GENLOCK? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 133 Thu Apr 16, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:12 EDT J.ALLEN27 - Apple will PROBABLY use an EC030 because they've pretty much committed themselves to not using anything less than an 030 in ANY computer. Wow! I didn't know that the A600, a Tandy machine, and POSSIBLY a new Mac constituted "the industry." M.ALLEN14 - Yeah, I even have problems with the MSTE/TT 'package.' Besides the horrendously ugly/oversized case, I don't even like the keyboard for them. They seem really 'cheap' and I hate the mouse/joystick connectors. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 134 Thu Apr 16, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 07:02 EDT Personally I prefer the original Mega case design. Small, compact, yet strong enough to hold a monitor and attractive to look at. The only problem was expandability... it was just a bit too short to fit a nice expansion cage into, and would have needed a larger powersupply to boot. As for the rumored mini-Mac... I've heard there are supposed to be problems with some Mac stuff on the EC030... due to the shortcuts & lack of MMU or something. Don't quote me though, I could be WAY wrong. A $500 Mac? with anything more than the micro display black&white screen? Believe it when I see it .. No way will Apple cut its profit margins enough to give the sucker that much of a break... Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 135 Thu Apr 16, 1992 R.WILSON36 at 19:05 EDT Dan, I have been in Paris each of the last two years for a week at a time. If ATARI is #1 they have a weird way of measuring. Two years ago there were two ATARI magazines and 200 PC magazines. This year there was 1 thin magazine for STs and enough PC magazines to sink a ship. When they are counting ATARI market share I wonder if they are counting PC clones and portfolios (I presume so). Having a 3% market share which is all PC clones doesn't do much for us ST users (unless we own stock). In the UK the presence of STs on TottenHam Court Road is a perpetually sinking number. Everywhere I have been the trend looks only down. Given the sales figures which ATARI corp releases every quarter I would say that my perception is adequately followed by the volume figures. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 136 Thu Apr 16, 1992 ST-REPORT [Lloyd Pulley] at 21:24 EDT John Townsend, >>..one of the online magazines recently had a little article about who >>has what percentage of market share in the various European countries. >> >>...we are number one in France... I believe the article you are quoting was from CPU Report 15 in last weeks ST Report. Some of the figures you quoted were incorrect. The following is a copy of the article in question with the proper figures (I've refor- matted it for easier online reading). I'm posting this just as information and not be controversial. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. Staff Editor for ST Report ST Report Note: Remember, Commodore's percentages also include its PC systems. ------------------------ -- European PC Market Fragmented According to a report from Datamonitor, a London-based strategic management consultancy, the European PC market is more fragemented than ever before, with no single manufacturer dominating the market. The UK's with a 1.5 million unit sales market: Compaq 14.0% IBM 14.0% Commodore 13.2% Amstrad 7.8% Apple 6.8% Olivetti 5.7% Atari 0.5% Others 38.0% Germany with a 1.5 million unit sales market: Commodore 15.0% Atari 13.0% IBM 11.8% Compaq 5.0% Amstrad 3.3% Olivetti 2.4% Apple 1.9% Others 47.0% France with a 1.2 million unit sales market: Compaq 13.3% Atari 10.1% Apple 8.5% Amstrad 7.9% Compaq 6.6% Olivetti 4.7% Commodore 3.8% Others 45.1% Italy with a 700,000 unit sales market: Olivetti 25.0% IBM 21.0% Commodore 7.9% Amstrad 5.7% Apple 3.5% Atari 2.9% Compaq 2.9% Others 31.1% ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 137 Thu Apr 16, 1992 J.LYONS16 [JPL] at 21:28 EDT Dan, Go ahead and get you wisdom teeth taken care of. The longer you wait, the worse it will be. I was lucky. My wisdom teeth weren't impacted on the jawbone and they came out very easily. All they had to do was dope me up for a day and then back to work. I still wasn't jumping for joy, but it wasn't too bad. JPL ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 138 Fri Apr 17, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:02 EDT S.FEENEY - One thing is that I think computers in general are more widely accepted overseas (i.e. people in other countries are less 'technophobic'). As far as I know, Mac's weren't really widely available in Europe and were VERY expensive, which gave the ST and Amiga a great start in all those countries. From what I've heard, many European computer users don't like MS- DOS based machines too much (i.e. they much preferred a GUI-based OS). TOWNS - I thought Atari WAS #1 in Germany (are they behind the Amiga?)? Or does Germany just have the largest number of Atari machines than any other country (some 1.25 million or so)? Although we were just mentioning OVERSEAS Atari usage, point out that on our own continent, in Canada, Atari is #3 (behind IBM and Mac). Atari and Commodore (8-bits/ST's and C64's/Amiga's) are also the leaders in the eastern European countries (e.g. Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, etc.) and even in Russia (or the C.I.S.) which can be partially credited to the US govt. from trying to restrain IBM and Apple from selling any machines over there. I know Poland and Yugoslavia are Atari- dominated PC markets, but I'm not sure about the others. D.MCNAMEE - The surgery went fine, but now (about a week later) I'm out of pain killers and my mouth hurts (like I have several toothaches in one!). I'm going back for a post-op checkup Friday and will try to convince the doctor to give me a few more pain killers if I'm still in pain (or even if I'm NOT! ). Unfortunately, I have a rather fast metabolism and went through the pain killers like M&M's. The doctor even TOLD me I might want to take 2 pills at a time since I metabolise them so quickly. N.BEDY - What GENLOCK? No, the RF port's only needed to hook up the ST to a TV. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 139 Fri Apr 17, 1992 N.BEDY [Mike Bedy] at 02:10 EDT Steve: Well, the Amgia has a composite out on it (so does the ST), and I know a lot of people use that to hook it up to their TV's. (I use the ST's composite to hook mine up... It's a lot clearer than RF out.) About old Atari Ad's... Let me search out my old magizines... Here we go.... Family Computing - Jan 1987 (I save everything) The ST Computers! With the introduction of the ST computers comes a new kind of computer language: PRAISE. Followed by .... 12 brillant praises from magizines and an 800 number to call Atari at for more information. At the bottom: Technology so advanced, it's affordable.. WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE ADS?!?!?!? (It is a full page, VERY good looking ad!) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 142 Sat Apr 18, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 14:28 EDT Dan, When I had my wisdon teeth pulled, I passed out after they gave me the anesthesia. But I guess it worked, because I didn't feel anything. :^) I slept soooo well! Shaun, I returned a couple of weeks ago from a trip to Germany and Austria. I'm in the process of writing a few articles on my Atari experiences there. John T., I believe those European market share figures you are referring to are the ones that DataMonitor published. Jack Wine reprinted them for comp.sys.atari.st (where I got my copy) although anyone else could have gotten them from the source. Although I, like most people here, would prefer a detachable keyboard, I think case design is the least of our worries. I don't think the majority of users (not those online here) care much what the machine looks like. (Anyone see the article on Penn Jillette in Newsweek? What if Atari sold computers with colors like that?! :^) ) People want power and capability at a low price. But I'll share my additional two cents on case design anyway. :^) Even though I have a Mega STE, I don't like the way it looks. It takes up too much room. I do like however, the functionality of the hard drive bay: one screw and it's open. The keyboard connection on "opposite" sides of the machine is logical. The cord rests between the computer console and the keyboard, instead of being bunched on one side. It's out of the way, at least in my case, when it's between the console and the keyboard. It's not interfering with anything else. My favorite computer design is the simple cube, like the NeXT and Mac IIcx/ci series and Quadra 700. Pop the hood, everything's accessible. Plug in some cards, install a larger hard drive. For detachable keyboards, the Mega STE/TT has my favorite layout and look, but the joystick ports should be in the place that they are on the old Mega keyboards: on the back-underside of the keyboard, not on the side. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 143 Sat Apr 18, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 20:57 EDT Ed Krimen, Gotta disagree about the keyboard cable on the MSTe. I too have my keyboard directly in front of the base unit. I find that tyhe cable prevents me from using the 'hook the keyboard onto the front of the MSTe' feature and is always getting in the way under the keyboard. At least Atari could have given us the option of routing the cable out either side ala the later AT keyboards (But PLEASE don't move the 'control' key!) or the DEC VT420s. Mike Allen ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 144 Sat Apr 18, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 23:16 EDT If the keyboard cable is a major problem then I suppose we can pick up one of the several replacement cables and route it around and behind the TT's case. that would leave it reaching the keyboard on the correct side and permit pushing the keyboard up against the TT's case. Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 145 Mon Apr 20, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 20:02 EDT JPL, I have decided to get them taken care of. The only problem now is money, and finding an oral surgeon I can trust. It's kind of hard considering my father is a dentist, and I've never had any work done on my teeth by anyone other than him. Steve, Ugh! If nothing else try some over the counter Motrin. Good stuff. See if he'll give you some Tylenol #3. Codine is great stuff too ;-) Ed, I've had one tooth pulled. I had a permanant tooth comming in before the other one decided to fall out. I did fine with just novacane and laughing gas. That tooth was in so good that it never got pulled. My dad (who pulled it. he's a dentist) worked on it for close to an hour and couldn't get it out. It finally shattered when he was trying to get a better grip on it. I was spitting out pieces of it for a couple days ;-) Dan ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 146 Mon Apr 20, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 21:12 EDT Mike, I had that problem as well (with the cable getting in the way when docking the keyboard, which I rarely do, but anyway...). The cable should go under the small front lip of the Mega STE (when you dock it). I'd suspect that this is why only part of the cable is coiled; the coiled part wouldn't fit underneath the lip. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 147 Tue Apr 21, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:04 EDT While browsing through several of the British Atari mags today, I read a few interesting bits of info. While talking about the 'new line' of Atari computers, it was mentioned that Atari UK said that there would be a new 'consumer model' machine that would retail for around 400 Pounds (about the same as the current 1040STE's). It was also mentioned that Atari UK said that it hasn't been named yet, but will carry a 'two-letter' model numbering system like the ST and TT. Anyway, that aside, does anyone know about the "hard cards" (data cartridges that can be up to 4MB in size) that are rumored to be used on the Falcon machine(s), possibly on the above-mentioned 'consumer model' machine(s), and also maybe the same as the game carts for the Jaguar? I know about the RAM/ROM cards for the Portfolio and the 'in-limbo' STylus (ST FORMAT says/implies the STylus has been dropped completely, though). Are these the same? I've also heard a 'suggestion' that Atari lowered the prices on the MSTE and TT machines to try to 'blow them out' before the new machines arrive. Any comments on that one? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 148 Tue Apr 21, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 10:34 EDT Steve - I haven't looked around for TTs, but every message I have seen from dealers and potential TT buyers indicate that TTs are in very short supply. As in, they nearly don't exist. Especially the mythical FCC Class B units (I get the idea that FCC B units have never been built). Atari would not need to "blow them out," under those circumstances. On the other hand, you might be right about the MSTe, since those seem to be available in good supply. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 149 Tue Apr 21, 1992 DENNYA [Denny Atkin] at 14:58 EDT Would be nice if the Atari Sparrow, Falcon, and Vulture or whatever use PCMCIA cards... It's beginning to become a real standard (lots of laptops and the Amiga 600 are using it), and it would make the cards easily available. (Plus the more manufacturers who standardize on PCMCIA, the better the economies of scale...) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 150 Wed Apr 22, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:38 EDT D.MCNAMEE - That's okay, my oral surgeon gave me a refill on the Percocet. Anyway, most of the pain has subsided now. I found out that what was really hurting was that my teeth were 'reseating' themselves since my wisdom teeth were no longer pushing them forward. They took about a week to do so. Now my jaw just feels a little tired (like I've been chewing on some really tough meat for a while) and occasionally my teeth feel a little uncomfortable. If you have all four wisdom teeth removed (if you HAVE four) and they are impacted, the surgery will probably cost about $1000 (mine was $1085 + $95 for the initial consultation + about $50-$60 worth of drugs). Like others told me, it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 151 Wed Apr 22, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:56 EDT Steve, That's good. I hope you heal quickly. Yep, I have 4 to remove. $1000 sounds about right, unfortunately my dental insurance will only pick up about $500 of that. Sigh. I'm fairly certain they aren't impacted, but I do have one that will be a bit tricky because one of the roots is curving pretty close to a nerve bundle. Dan ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 152 Wed Apr 22, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 22:56 EDT Dan - Hey, don't be concerned about the surgeon trashing your nerve bundle. The worst that could happen is you might get tobacco juice all over your face when you try to spit. Heh heh. -JN ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 153 Thu Apr 23, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 01:10 EDT Spare no expense Dan, if the guy screws up, you'll have no feeling in your lower jaw...for the rest of your life. There's a real important nerve that the wisdom teeth roots rap around. I went to Mass General and luckily was covered by Dad's insurance...nearly $3,000. Worked perfectly. That was in 77' before the blood supply was at risk. Have the blood bank save up a bunch of your blood before hand, just in case. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 154 Thu Apr 23, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 14:55 EDT Jim N, ;-) Dan Jim A, Good idea on the blood. I hadn't thought of that. I've seen the x- rays myself, and the root is close to, but not wrapped around the nerve. It's close enough that if they slip a bit in the wrong direction then it could be damaged. I like being able to talk, so I will make sure to tell them to be careful ;-) Dan ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 155 Thu Apr 23, 1992 D.FISK2 [David] at 22:48 EDT Ah...now I understand. Atari is diversifying into Dental Hardware. "Falcon"...a 33mhz Wisdom Tooth Extractor. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 156 Fri Apr 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:59 EDT Maybe we should get this topic's name changed to "Atari Falcon Computers/Wisdom Teeth Extraction"??? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 157 Fri Apr 24, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 03:18 EDT What is this the Beverly Hill Billies? Brain Surgery/Shoes mended ;-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 158 Fri Apr 24, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 14:35 EDT David, Gee, did I drop too many hints? Dan ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 159 Fri May 01, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 23:11 EDT Here's a little something I found yesterday on Usenet. There are two posts here, by the same person. The info in both are similar, but not exact: Article #38632 (38676 is last): From: elendir@pegase.enst.fr (Vincent Habchi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Falcon specs, February 2,1992 from Atari. Date: Sat Apr 18 12:47:52 1992 Hi there, These are the Atari specs regarding the Falcon, as published in a note dated form February 21st. CPU 68030 @ 16 MHz. Optionnal FPU 68882. RAM : 1, 4 or 14 MB configurations operating in page mode. ROM: 512 Kb internal, 128 Kb cartridge port. DSP 56001 @ 32 MHz. 32 KWords (96 KBytes) of 0 wait state static RAM. DSP connector to allow for modem/fax/voic mail/direct to disk... Internal direct processor slot for 386SX emulation, or other processors. Optionnal processor socket. Super VGA : 640x480 256 colors. True color 16 bits mode : 320x200 or 640x480, 65536 colors Accepts external video sync. 15-bit overlay mode for video tiling and special effects. Programmable overscan 262144 possible colors Harware assisted horizontal fine scrolling BLITTER graphics coprocessor Independant 10 channel 16-bit digital audio DMA record and playback channels with up to 50 MHz sampling rate. Stereo 16 bit DMA audio output. Bitstream 1-bit DAC, 80 times oversampling. Stereo 8 bit DMA audio input. RASCAL and SDMA audio signal coprocessors. SCSI 2 port with DMA High speed LocalTalk compatible LAN port. Connector for RVB ST or modulator. RS 232C serial port. Bi-directionnal CENTRONICS port Cartridge port. MIDI in and out. Stereo microphone input. Stereo audio output. Two joysticks ports. Two 15-pin enhanced digital/analog controller connectors. 1.44 Mb floppy disk. Optionnal internal IDE hard drive. There it is. Hope you'll enjoy. Vince. Article #38662 (38678 is last): From: elendir@quasar.enst.fr (Vincent Habchi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Falcon (Re-post) Date: Fri May 1 04:56:47 1992 Hi there. This is the second post I make to the news regarding Falcon specifications. The first should have get lost, so please, if you read this message in C.S.A.S can you send me an email to acknowledge its reception ? Thanks ! Falcon specifications. Internal Atari communication, dated February 1992. CPU : 68030 @ 16 MHz. (3.84 Mips) Data and address bus are 32 bits wide. FPU optional (68882 @ 16 MHz). RAM : 1, 4 or 14 Mb, operating in page mode. ROM : 512 Kb, plus 128 Ko in the cartridge port. DSP 56001 @ 32 MHz (?), 32 Kwords (96 Kb) of 0 wait state private RAM. DSP connector for modems, voice mail, direct-to-disk, JPEG/MPEG codecs, ... Expansion bus : 386SX slot, DMA processor slot, optional processor socket. SVGA rez : 320x200 or 640x480 in 256 or 65536 colors amongst 262144. External video sync for genlocks, 15 bit video overlay mode for video titling. Programmable overscan. Hardware scrolling and BLITTER coprocessors. 10 independants, 16 bit digital audio channels, up to 50 kHz sampling rate. Stereo 16 bit DMA output through a 1-bit DAC, 80 times oversampling. Stereo 8 bit DMA input. RASCAL (TM) and SDMA sound coprocessors. SCSI-2 port with internal DMA. LAN, RS 232C, Video, bi-directionnal parallel port suitable for scanners. MIDI in and out, jack connectors for sound. 2 joystick ports, 2 enhanced digital/analog controler ports. 1.44 Mb floppy, optionnal IDE Hard-disk, transfer rate 1 Mb/sec. Lastly, retail price under $700 Enjoy. Vincent. ================ On the 1040 case topic, I must say this: If you HAVE to use that case, PLEASE do a minor facelift on it. Give it the Mega STE keyboard, complete with the new function keys. Put the new cooling vents on the back, like on the Wedding Cake case, etc. It's not the greatest design, but at least freshen it up a bit! Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 160 Sun May 03, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:29 EDT I can live with that. I would SERIOUSLY hope it's upgraded to 32MHz by the time it comes out, though. Also, I would still need to see one and, especially, see some marketing/future support for it before I'd consider getting one. And like Rob mentioned, I wouldn't think of getting one in a 1040-like case unless it's a VAST improvement over the standard 1040- style case. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 161 Sun May 03, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:36 EDT Obviously, the 16Mhz version is the mass market version which will retail for under $700 and make the Atari name a household word once again. It will sport a 1040 style case and will be used for everything from games, to DTV. The 32Mhz version(s) ['030 and '040] will certainly be the $999 incarnation in a spiffy tower configuration. This machine will make the Atari name a businesshold word. It will debut at the same time as the 1040 style version so as not to disappoint the loyal Atarians here (thus explaining the delay... the 1040 version is ready to market and the tower version is holding it up awaiting FCC, ANSI, ISO9000, UL, and the Goodhousekeeping seals of approval). _______________________ /hunderbird (Sorry, guys. I was feeling a bit punchy today!!!) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 162 Sun May 03, 1992 E.JOLLEY at 17:03 EDT Didn't Atari just say they were only bringing out one new machine? Or did I hear wrong ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 163 Sun May 03, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 23:38 EDT E.JOLLEY - Atari hasn't publicly announced any new machine(s) yet. If you heard anything as being an Atari announcement, you heard wrong or someone else passed bad data to you. With all the interest in finding out _anything_ about new systems, the rumor mill has been churning out all kinds of things at a feverish pitch. I'm afraid we'll have to just wait to hear from Atari before we know what to believe. I hear patience is a virtue. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 164 Mon May 04, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 07:14 EDT Jeff; That statement of one machine was made ... but not here. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 165 Mon May 04, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 09:41 EDT Atari has NOT officially announced anything, have they? I'm guessing from Ralph's post that someone, somewhere, said something, which led others to believe that Atari would only be releasing one machine? Is that about right Ralph? In what period of time? Or, was that like a general "atari will only release one new machine in this generation BUT your grandchildren can expect a new machine without a doubt!" :-) Hehehehahaha I enjoyed that, thanks. :-) Nathan @ ISD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 166 Mon May 04, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 09:44 EDT Ralph, Thanks for the clarification...I missed whatever press release or statement that it appeared in. Who was the source and can it be reproduced here? If not, how about posting the highlights for us, Ralph? Thanks. Jeff ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 167 Mon May 04, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 18:57 EDT Of course, *I* heard that the Falcon 040 was really based on the old Bahgwan Rajneesh 1000, which is a 0.5 MHz subset of the VIC-20 chipset, designed to run adding machine equations. But the Falcon adds to that two channel beep sound, and will retail for under $4000. ;) Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 168 Tue May 05, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:03 EDT D.ENGEL - Interesting info there. Conjecture, educated guessing, or wishful thinking, though. If I may conjecture a bit, I think there may be a 16MHz and 32-33MHz version of this 'bottom-end' machine in a 1040-like (I don't say "-style" because to me that implies no improvement in design) case available this Fall unless by then there's no real price difference between the two speeds and hopefully just a 32-33MHz version will be released. Also, the '040 machines (and perhaps new '030 versions) in desktop-style and tower cases probably wouldn't be available until late Winter or early Spring next year. I still find it very spooky how similar these new machines sound to the NeXT machines (speaking of the NeXT machines, I didn't realise before that they also have built-in MIDI). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 169 Tue May 05, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 08:12 EDT "Patience is a virtue".... but then I've never been know for my virtues If even a fraction of the rumors are true, I will GLADLY spend $1,000 of my VERY scarce shekels on one of these 040-based tower systems... GO FOR IT ATARI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 170 Thu May 07, 1992 G.DORRINGTON [GREG] at 02:46 EDT Jeff - Its odd that you would say that Atari hasn't publicly announced any new machines yet. In the May 1992 issue of ST Format, they reported that Jack Tramiel gave a sneak preview of a machine code named Falcon at the Ce-Bit show in Hanover in mid-March. They quoted a suggested price tag of 600 pounds but no anticipated release until early 1993. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 171 Thu May 07, 1992 ISD [Nathan] at 09:10 EDT In fact, the machine was NOT shown to the public at all. It was shown as a sneak preview perhaps, in confidence, to selected members of the Atari community at large. It was definitely not publicly announced! Nathan @ ISD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 172 Thu May 07, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 16:57 EDT Greg, It's not odd at all. Atari gave a private presentation of a machine to dealers at CeBit (and we've heard lots of conflicting reports about the details). They (Atari) have not yet made a public announcement identifying the machine(s), the price(s), the features, etc. that I am aware of. Ralph Mariano says that there has since been an official public announcement, but I'm sorry to say I haven't seen it. I hope Ralph or someone else (maybe from Atari?) will be kind enough to post the details here along with identifying the source of this public announcement. I'm just as eager as everyone else to learn all the details about any new machine(s) from Atari. - Jeff ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 174 Fri May 08, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 07:55 EDT Jeff, mention was made in a message posted in the FNET. One machine would be released in the fall. The message was sent by an Atari rep. The point about one machine was emphasized. It also mentioned to look to next year for other models. Ralph @ STReport International Online Magazine ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 176 Fri May 08, 1992 JEFF.W [ST Sysop] at 11:35 EDT Ralph - Are you refering to the Usenet message from Vincent Habchi, requoted in message 159 of this topic? Is he an Atari employee, a manufacturers' rep, an authorized Atari spokesman of some kind, or what? I'm not familiar with him and if it's not him, you haven't mentioned who it was. Basically, I just want to know if this is a person who knows what he's talking about and has the authority to speak on behalf of Atari on such matters. Let me ask you this way... Would you stake your journalistic integrity and that of STReport on the authenticy and accuracy of what was in message #159 or on whatever other message you're refering to? Please, let us know the author of the statement you're refering to and what details the statement included. If the person spoke with the authorization of Atari, there is no harm repeating it here. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-= Folks, This is a valid question and I'm not trying to take a shot at anyone's integrity, be it Vincent Habchi's or Ralph Mariano's. Please, no clever barbs about the journalistic integrity of STReport or other print or online publications. Thanks. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 177 Fri May 08, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 20:34 EDT It does seem clear that there is a project code-named Falcon out. That some developers have it for software upgrades, that the final form may not yet be cast into plastic molds, and that Atari ditched the vaporware problem a couple of years ago and is being very responsible about that. They are possibly getting user and developer feedback on various design implementations at this point. And this way, if they have to delay release, no one can charge them with vaporware. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 178 Sat May 09, 1992 E.JOLLEY at 00:17 EDT I can confirm that I also heard from the FNET that there will be only one machine announced. I'm almost certain it was someone from Atari. I'd say Bob Brodie but I can't remember for sure. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 180 Sun May 10, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 00:27 EDT Magazine rumors aren't considered fact. We haven't announced anything publicly. We have shown some new technology to members of the Atari community. That's _isn't_ a public announcement by ANY means. -- John ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 181 Sun May 10, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:40 EDT S.SCHAPER - It DOES seem clear since Leonard Tramiel mentioned it personally (after all, it was the only INTERESTING thing he had to say ). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 182 Sun May 10, 1992 E.JOLLEY at 13:01 EDT All I know is that this new machine is not only the do or die machine for Atari, it's also the do or die machine for me. If the new machine comes out and it's competitively priced and has all the clone killer stats that I've been hearing, It'll probably be my next computer. If not, I'm afraid I'm going PC. Although there are those out there which will get a PC no matter what. It's maddening, for Atari too I guess. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 183 Mon May 11, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:04 EDT Considering what's going on with the ST BOOK and especially FSM GDOS, perhaps Atari hasn't gotten over their previous problems and maybe we shouldn't be expecting any new line of machines from Atari for at least another year or so. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 184 Mon May 11, 1992 S.SANDERS2 [SDS] at 05:05 EDT Personally, I'd much rather see Atari wait to announce a machine until I'm able to actually purchase one. I think Atari's doing the right thing in keeping a lid on whatever they've got. -Scott @ SDS Member IAAD ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 185 Tue May 12, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:35 EDT E.JOLLEY - Not me! I'm going Mac or PowerPC if Atari's new machines don't have much to offer. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 186 Wed May 13, 1992 R.BROWN30 at 01:11 EDT Scott is right. If Atari said it had a new machine in the wings, especially one as promising as the Falcon, and then played its cards a la Osborne, promoting it and thus killing sales of the current model(s), then you have a classic marketing blunder. We don't hear much from the Osborne folks anymore (I sold mine while planning on a big IBM purchase way back when, but scrapped the IBM plans for the newcomer ST and have yet to regret it). We can only hope that when Atari is ready, it has strengthened its dealer support, worked out availability problems, and prepared some devastating advertising. Those who remember the first ST ads can remember loftier days when the word was out. The ads sold me because the specs were much nicer than the IBM XT I was considering, but since then IBM grew up (excepting its dreadful OS, which only now are they attempting to remedy). Now it's Atari's turn. Much earlier in this thread some commented on "truecolor" capabilities. I wonder if they realize what's necessary to really do "Madison Avenue" grade 'truecolor' work, where the cost of the computer is virtually the 'disposable' part of the investment. BTW, even now, any Atari capable of running a program like Calamus SL or PageStream can take a good 'truecolor' picture file, and even with a 1 bit _monochrome_ monitor, print it to color separations without a hitch. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 187 Wed May 13, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 21:36 EDT Jolley, right, I will be forced, kicking and screaming, to go DOS/OS/2, for professional reasons. It is _highly_ doubtful that professional research software like GRAMCORD will ever be ported to the ST. OTOH, I _like_ my ST. I like what Lexicor is coming up with, and will likely be happy with That's Write for another 5 years, at least. Why upgrade all my software at once, when hopefully DOS will go the way of the dodo before too long? An 030 or 040 Unix- capable Falcon with a 486 slot for DOS or OS/2 emulation would be an ideal machine upgrade in a couple of years for me. (After that, I would hope Atari would have Sparc clones that could run TOS and DOS as virtual terminals). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 188 Thu May 14, 1992 R.MONFORT1 [LEXICOR] at 00:09 EDT Hey, thanks about the lexicor comment Meneldil. Ringo ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 189 Thu May 14, 1992 CYCLONE [BillSheppard] at 02:56 EDT Hey, Dan - I've got four wisdom teeth, and they are all in perfectly and won't have to be removed. See, if you had gone to Valley you wouldn't be staring at a nasty dental operation! Bill ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 190 Thu May 14, 1992 E.JOLLEY at 03:03 EDT S.JOHNSON - Hey, I'd like to get a Power PC too, but when are they coming out? I need to upgrade my system within the year, and none of the current Atari models make it worth the money for me. That's why I'm hoping that the Falcon WILL come out this fall and it WILL have at least 640x480x256 and hopfully a VME card slot. And I'd sure like a detachable keyboard and mouse and joystick ports located on the CPU. And that's not really much to ask, it makes replacement of a shot keyboard easier and you can also move the keyboard around easier if it isn't dragging the mouse around. It's just simple logic, I think. And maybe if they really want to make the falcon standard, they could make the keyboard IBM compatible so you could just plug in any replacement you want. But that's not a must for me. P.S. I'm really not trying to look like a jerk, I'm not trying to threaten everybody with leaving the Atari community, but my next computer has got to last a while and be competitive with what's around. Hey, it just might be the Falcon. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 191 Thu May 14, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 08:58 EDT I haven't found a computer yet that doesn't get outdated fairly fast. I didn't say useful but I do mean that there is a constant flow of new technology that goes on. I don't expect that to change. That is how they get us to buy the new toys, now don't they. :-) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 192 Thu May 14, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:34 EDT Bill, You mean if I had gone to Valley that my mouth would have been big enough to accomidate the extra teeth? Dan (BTW, Are you guys doing any hiring? Janice got layed off last week from her job.) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 193 Fri May 15, 1992 J.WENGLEWICK at 20:29 EDT I was on the phone to Atari (Canada) yesterday about some hardware questions I had. I'd heard some things from them in January and was just calling back to get a confirmation on them. Anyway, I asked about the Falcon, and was told probably in the fall, maybe as late as Christmas. I was also told that it will be a graphics computer designed to compete with the top end Mac's. Maybe as fast as the TT, maybe only 16 Mhz. I asked abot the $1200 price i'd heard thrown around, and was told that it would be about that. ... Connor ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 194 Sat May 16, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:32 EDT E.JOLLEY - They hope to get the first, lower-end desktop models of the PowerPC out by VERY late '92 to 1st quarter '93 (I'm sure by then Atari will still be floundering around trying to figure out what they're doing with their new machines! ). It seems that 'the industry' is wanting to move towards this obscure idea of 'standards.' I kinda feel that if Atari doesn't get involved in this movement (beyond just moving to SCSI from ACSI, that is) that they may fall even further behind. I HOPE not, but it's just a feeling. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 195 Sat May 16, 1992 E.JOLLEY at 00:58 EDT I've got that feeling, too. And all this business with IBM and Apple and Motorola still feels strange to me. But maybe I'm just a backward thinker or something. Anyhow, if these Power PCs are coming out late '92, they may certainly be an option. However, I don't have a fortune to spend, and IBM's have certainly been overpriced before, so I don't know, I guess I'm just babbling. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 196 Sat May 16, 1992 J.STRAND1 [John] at 14:06 EDT Steve, If you are no sure on buying another Atari, buy a clone then buy the Gemulator. I have seen it and it works. You need a 486 and a fast VGA card. This will give you faster than the 8 Mhz speed of a stock Atari. You can put both TOS 1.0 and 2.06 on the board. There is also a spot for Mac roms. Me, I 'm a sucker for Atari, just bought a Mega STe. ...... John (PSAN) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 197 Mon May 18, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:22 EDT J.STRAND1 - You've GOT to be kidding! Buy a fast '486 and the GEMulator??? The GEMulator itself costs more than an STE and there hasn't been any proof as yet that it will in fact run as fast as an 8MHz ST (we've just heard that it WILL BE by the time it's released). For the price of the GEMulator, I would want it to be a hardware emulator (an 8MHz 68000 alone costs under $10!). Besides, I'd rather emulate an inferior machine on a superior machine than the other way around. Anyway, on to Falcon talk... According to the May issue of ST FORMAT, Atari UK has said that no new computers are "anticipated before early 1993." And if ST Report is correct that the BCS 'unveiling' is rescheduled for later this fall, then perhaps the Falcon's release has been delayed several months unless the BCS meeting will be the simultaneous announcement/release of the machine. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 198 Mon May 18, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 04:23 EDT I agree, I'd gladly spend $300 or so for a 'solid' hardware DOS emulator with VGA capabilities on a falcon or sparrow then go the other direction. Heck, if the Falcon series is half as impressive (and compatible) as I hope I'll sell the DOS notebook I had to buy, get the Falcon/DOS card combo and an STBook.... especially if we find a way to upgrade that thing to a T-25 or 030 CPU.. I know, unlikely in the case of the STBook but it's worth thinking about. By the way, I was looking over the spects on the new PowerBook (MAC) 100 and, compared to the Book, was not impressed. Yes the 140/170 are more powerful, but they are also a LOT more expensive. There's been some comment here about the MAC Quadra series.. Ok, they may possibly 'out power' the Falcon, there's little question they offer more raw computing power than the sparrow... But then for $7000-$10,000 I would hope so! Despite all this, I strongly suspect that the Sparrow will prove more than a match for the base-to-mid range MAC series (for less $$) and the full fledged Falcon > will come a lot closer to Quadra-level power than MAC will be comfortable with. And again for a LOT! less money. Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 199 Tue May 19, 1992 J.STRAND1 [John] at 23:07 EDT Steve, You said you weren't sure you were going to buy another Atari, your message 185, the GEMulator is a option. It will run at 8Mhz speed or faster on a 486 with a fast VGA board, I have personally see it. The intro price is $199 till September, this does not included the TOS roms which cost another $60 for a total of $260, please let me know where I can buy a STE new for $260. I was told by Darek that he is taking orders now. Gregg, I don't think you will ever see a MS DOS emulator able to use VGA come out for the Atari for under $600. ...... John (PSAN) ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 200 Thu May 21, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:12 EDT J.STRAND1 - I also said before that I wouldn't touch a clone and that if I didn't go with ANOTHER Atari , that I would get a Mac or a PowerPC. So far, you've been the only person who's seen the GEMulator running at full speed and REQUIRING a fast '486 with a fast VGA board to get that performance ain't all that impressive either. And what I said about the cost of the GEMulator was in reference to the normal price. Also, the '386SX board for the Falcon (with SVGA/XGA graphics compatibility and may POSSIBLY multitask with the Falcon's 680x0) is rumored to retail for less than $350-$400 (and possibly as low as $300). ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 201 Thu May 21, 1992 MIKE.SCHUETZ at 03:08 EDT Well, the Atari officials held their word :-) as promised at CeBIT about 40 Falcons have reached Germany and are being about to be distributed among the developers. One developer though couldn't wait that long and flew himself to Sunnyvale a couple of days ago.... and got his machine directly from there... So there is much more to the Falcon than rumors........ although of course no details are to be none..... but as Jack Tramiel put it in Hannover this March: 'We'll bring the workstation into your living room.' Now all there is left... is to wait if the Fall delivery date is kept too... ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 202 Fri May 22, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 18:56 EDT Great news!!!!!!! Thanks Mike.S for keeping us up-to-date on the German scene! Anthony ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 203 Sat May 23, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 08:39 EDT I firmly believe that ALL PC owners _Should_ get themselves a GEMulator. Just think... if 10% of them had one, the market for ST software would increase by an order of magnitude or two. Plus: once they actually used ST software emulated at 8Mhz, they would quickly grow tired of their pokey kludge '486s and trade up to an ST, an STe, or maybe even a Falcon. The surge in Atari popularity would give Atari the needed funds to advertise their products, and pretty soon, you'll be seeing Prime Time Atari Sponsorship of The Olympics and the Superbowl, World Series, etc. etc. Atari would then be recognised as the computer pioneer that we know them to be. But, seriously... Installing a GEMulator in a PC is much like the early 40's experiments with bolting Jet engines onto existing prop aircraft. Once the potential of the jet engine was discovered in this way, then specifically designed jet powered aircraft were built. Prop driven aircraft since then have fallen into hobbyist and a few specialty niches and practical obsolescence. Installing a PC emulator in an ST is much like the early 90's experiments in converting Corvettes and Testarossas to steam and coal/wood power. You'd have to be out of your mind to do it. __________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 204 Sat May 23, 1992 S.SCHAPER [Meneldil] at 13:51 EDT What was the price on the STBook again? And are they out to dealers yet? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 205 Sat May 23, 1992 G.GRAHAM9 [Glenn] at 20:32 EDT I can't imagine anyone buying a Gemulator when ST's are as cheap as they are. ! Can you imagine what an employer would say about installing an Atari card or any card in _his_ machine? BTW, Isn't it funny how someone who was tearing the Atari "Movement" apart some months ago is now desperately bringing it to his beloved Dos Box! ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 206 Sun May 24, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:55 EDT Is there an updated list of the proposed "Faclon" specification out there anywhere. I'm really looking for something similar to what's been posted already, with the inclusion of "layman's" explanations of what the "DSP" and other specialty chips do. Being a "techie" myself sometimes makes it difficult for me to explain things to average folks. I've got _several_ of my co-workers interested in the Falcon, and all I told them was this: "It's a new machine which is so advanced that say, for example, you needed more memory to do a really huge CAD drawing. All you have to do is pop the lid and plug in more RAM and the next time you boot, your program _automatically_ has the extra RAM available!!!" They say: "Wow! You mean you don't have to edit any files or install the right drivers and stuff to get more RAM!". I say: "That's right. It's amazing how computers have advanced in the past few years." They say: "Tell me more about this computer." I say: "Okay, let me ask around for more info." They say: "Okay. great!" So there you have it. Here I am. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it. By the way. I've discovered the key to selling this new machine is to call it a "Falcon". If you call it the "Atari Falcon" interest is much, much, less. Perhaps Atari is starting some sort of new computer division called "Faclon Workstations" or something. It _might_ be all they need to do to get the recognition they deserve. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 207 Mon May 25, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:48 EDT S.SCHAPER - I believe the retail price of the ST BOOK 4/40 without any extras (no external drive and not even the power supply!) is about $2300 (somewhere between $2295 and $2395). And they won't be available at dealers until at least June sometime. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 208 Mon May 25, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 11:39 EDT This just in from AtariNet, the FIDO Atari echo: Message #17946 "Atari ST Echo" (Read: 1) Date: 23 May 92 10:15:16 From: Richard Guadagno To: All Subj: MultiTOS and Falcon Information * Original Echo Area: Atari Explorer Mag * Original Message by: Mark K. of 1:107/433.66 * to: All MultiTOS and Falcon030 Information Originally appeared in a European publication --------------------------------------------- MultiTOS is developed partly by ATARI Corp. and they included the multitasking kernel MiNT, which they have licensed from: Eric R. Smith Dept. of Mathematics University of Western Ontario London, Ontario, Canada N6A 5B7 Email: eric.smith@uwo.ca MultiTOS doesn't fit in the standard ST TOS- ROMs, therefore a new solution must be found to satisfy all users. The multitasking AES will be in that way modified, so that more than 8 windows (maybe max. 127 or 255) can be opened on the desktop. Message pipelines are like communication bridges between parallel running applications. Some new partition (Q,U,V,X, etc.) are used for: Pseudo drive partitions Device Drivers Activated Processes etc. Accessories (in the old fashion way) are not needed any longer for two reasons: a) we have now CPX-Moduls for the X-Control Panel b) we can run many applications simultanously MultiTOS contains a lot of Unix features and comes closer to MultiFinder. The limit of the DOS-typical filename with max. 8 characters plus 3 characters for extension ("1ST_WORD.DOC") will be eliminated and in future also longer Unix- or Mac- typical filenames accepted ("1stWordPlus.Document.Backup.1"). If under MultiTOS one of many parallel running applications should crash, then the others remain protected and safe, but under Microsoft Windows the user in that case has to re-boot his PC while losing datas. The desktop of MultiTOS looks like in MultiGEM. The quantity of used accessories, opened windows and started applications depends on the memory size (RAM) of the computer. Any way, for professional users is 4 MB and upwards recommended. The screen will show the private (if any) desktop of the last activated application. It is better when the applications don't use own desktop, so it saves a lot redraw or refresh time and the system's desktop is available in the background with drive icons and trash icon. MultiTOS Availability: Beta Test Version for Developers now Final Version after Summer 1992 (maybe after ATARI Messe 92) Technical Specification: HD Floppy Drive 1.44 MB 3.5" CPU MC 68030 16 MHz Signalprocessor DSP 56001 (like in NeXT) Blitter RAM max. 14 MB Internal Harddisk optional 2.5" Interfaces: Centronics, RS 232, LAN, DSP, Mouse, Joystick, Stereo, etc. Resolutions (only color): 320x200/16 640x200/4 320x480/256 640x480/16 800x600/256 640x480/65536 (16bit) --- FIDOdoor+ 3.1.4 * Origin: Aces High BBS ~ Matawan, NJ ~ AtariNet 51:1/5 ~ (1:107/442.0) SEEN- BY: 151/1000 1003 362/119 301 508 701 371/13 1304 3650/1 Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 209 Tue May 26, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:36 EDT D.ENGEL - A Digital Signal Processor (DSP) is just that --- it processes digital signals (data)...and VERY FAST. It's what's used in digital effects units for audio (reverbs, digital delays, etc.) as well as several other products. It can handle high-resolution realtime audio/video manipulation, fast and complex data compression/decompression, and anything else that you need to process. To put it in layman's terms, it's _kinda_ like having a SUPERFAST math co-processor for more specific functions. For example, if you had a video (like a TV channel) input going into the DSP, the DSP could allow you to have a window on your screen with the video being output to that window and the DSP could scale the picture to whatever size the window is instantaneously. Additionally, it could allow the user to manipulate the image by altering the colors or other digital effects like freeze-frame, strobing, etc. And it could do all this within another application with very little system slowdown. Mind you, this is only one example (and perhaps not completely clear in the haste in which it was written ). By the way, I've always thought Atari might do better in the computer market if they dropped the Atari name from them. They should come up with a new company name and logo for their computers and call it a 'division of Atari Corp.' ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 210 Thu May 28, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 05:35 EDT Hmm, looking over the video resolutions listed in the previous message I notice that the 640X400 'Hi-Res' Monochrome (or duo-chrome) display is absent. Was this an oversight on the part of our mystery reporter or are we going to loose access to a LOT of our current high-res software? Granting that some of the better stuff (Calamus, PageStream, etc) should be able to handle the higher resolutions. The DSP sounds fantastic! I wonder just how Atari will (if really there) interface it into the system.... dedicated to audio, video, or free to be used as needed? Hopefully the latter, if it can handle multiple tasks. I can hardly wait until we start getting some REAL information on the new systems.... But I'll hold on and give Atari the chance to get everything nailed down good and tight . Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 211 Thu May 28, 1992 A.DIPIETRO [Anthony D.] at 18:46 EDT Thunderbird.... If I'm not mistaken, all current production ST/TT computers allow you to open the hood and drop in more memory (up to a limit) and then close the hood and have all that RAM avaliable...youdon't have to wait for Falcon... Anthony ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 212 Sat May 30, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:00 EDT G.ANDERSON - I believe the thinking may be that with a 640x480 to 800x600 color resolution, the 640x400 ST hi-rez mode isn't needed. With the added clarity of monochrome monitors, perhaps the new machines will also support VGA mono? ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 213 Sat May 30, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 03:21 EDT I've no problem with that (having the higher-res color displays avaialable) . My only concern was that there is a LOT of software (most of it PD stuff like RISKY, my favorite monochrome game) out there can can't recognise the better resolutions. I was expecting at least some emulation of the old high-res mode for poorly written software. Personally, I can't wait to see the new machines. If I still have a job at the end of the year I expect to be upgrading to a new Atari system. Gregg ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 214 Sat May 30, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:09 EDT Thanks for the specs, guys. This machine sounds like a real hummer! I've always been a BIG fan of the old Atari 800's "special" hardware. I feel that the more custom hardware there is in a machine, the more things you can do with it beyond it's specs. For example, I've written a 512 color (or 4096 on an STe) picture viewer which displays all those colors on a low-res screen. Due to the advanced interrupt architecture and the custom hardware of the ST, I can use software to circumvent the 16 color limitation of the hardware itself. I have seen nothing to make me believe this is even possible to do on a PC. The graphics hardware and interrupt structure are kludged into a bus designed in the 70's. I can just imagine the amazing things possible with the Falcon's new hardware. Go Atari! ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 215 Sat May 30, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 16:04 EDT Thunderbird: You can convert GIFs to Spectrum-E (320x200x4096) format with DMJ-GIF 3.0. It will convert them to 4096 colors, and if you don't have an STE, he has a viewer that will simulate 4096 colors through flickering. It works very well. I just converted a GIF of a Dodge Stealth the other night, into 4096, and it looks fantastic on my Mega STE. And now back to our regularly scheduled topic. Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 216 Sun May 31, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:16 EDT Rob: I'm not sure what to make of your reply. Perhaps the meaning of my message wasn't clear. I wasn't asking about utilities to show 4096 color pictures on the STe, I was just pointing out that the advanced hardware of the ST computers makes it possible to write software which exceeds the capabilities of the hardware. I was just using the Spectrum 512 picture viewer I wrote a few years ago as an example. (I wrote the Spectrum viewer before any other such code became available to programmers, but never did anything with it because I wasn't sure if I were stepping on Trio Engineering's feet. It's a really simple hardware trick and it's so elegant how it works. All because of the way the ST was designed. If PC's had this type of engineering, they wouldn't be the antiquated kludges on steroids they have become. ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 217 Sun May 31, 1992 R.GLOVER3 [Rob] at 18:55 EDT Thunderbird: I think I was adding to what you'd said... nothing bad or anything implied. :) Rob ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 218 Mon Jun 01, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:07 EDT D.ENGEL - You wrote a 512/4096-color picture viewer which does the same as Spectrum (i.e. 48 colors per scan line) or one that will do 320 colors per scan line? If the latter, does it also reduce the vertical resolution to 199 lines as with Spectrum? Someone I know was trying to hack out a 16-color text mode in medium resolution for an ANSI terminal, but he couldn't do it without flicker and slowdown. So are the first machines still expected this Fall? Some sources say that they've been delayed until early '93. ------------ Category 18, Topic 20 Message 219 Thu Jun 04, 1992 JWC-OEO [Jon] at 21:39 EDT Steve, Actually, I think the original "estimate" was "late fall". Any release time described in terms of seasons only, with no other dates, should be read as "at least a year from now". "Late xxx" means add 6 months or so to xxx. So "early '93" would actually be before "late fall"!!! (Unless what your heard was "first quarter" (heaven forbid) which means "far distant future or never".) All this sound cynical? Ha! Look at past release "estimates" from Atari and most other compter manufacturers (OK, so Atari isn't really a manufacturer any more). If anything, I'm being kind. Seriously though, they will be out when their out. If you need something now, but it now. Don't wait for rumors, especially Atari rumors. Jon ------------