========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 41 Tue Dec 22, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 20:08 EST Sub: FALCON 030 - Help and Questions Ask here if you need help or have a technical question to ask about the FALCON 030 computer. This topic is designed to inform users about the FALCON and discuss it CURRENT details and characteristics. 202 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 1 Mon Mar 29, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 13:15 EST By the way, an important fact I haven't seen mentioned here yet is that it is not possible to get into 80-column true-color mode on a VGA monitor. The only true-color mode available from the desktop when using a VGA monitor is the 40-column mode -- the equivalent of ST low resolution. Also, it's quite true that the flicker in interlaced modes (using an Atari color monitor like the SC1224) is _very_ bad. Some people will probably be able to use true-color mode without discomfort, but I'm not one of them. As I've been compatibility-testing our software for the Falcon I find that I can't work in true-color mode for very long (more than about 10 minutes) without suffering tired eyes and the beginnings of a headache. For productivity work like word processing or DTP, I think a VGA monitor is a necessity. If you plan to do _both_ true-color graphics work and productivity, you'll probably need both monitors. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech Monday, March 29, 1993 9:37 am ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 2 Mon Mar 29, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 14:21 EST Isn't there 640x240x65536 on VGA? I don't have a Falcon, so I wouldn't know. 8^) The thing about flicker is that how much one percieves changes from person-to-person. I tend to be a little sensitive to flicker, while one friend of mine can't tell much difference between 60Hz and 50Hz modes. Also, if you turn down the contrast, the flicker will decrease. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 3 Mon Mar 29, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 16:33 EST Eric, The Falcon runs fine with or without MultiTOS, so no problem there. ;-) The JRI people are over in Germany now, so you may have some problems getting in touch with them right now, but the info on them is: John Russel Innovations P.O. Box 5277 Pittsburgh, CA 94565 (415) 458-9577 Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 4 Mon Mar 29, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 18:48 EST In the desktop's "Set Video" dialog box, the "True-Color" option is disabled in the popup menu until you set the "Columns" to 40. So no, there is no 640x240x65526 mode on a VGA monitor. It may be possible to reprogram the video hardware directly to get a VGA 80-column true-color mode, but anyone who does this is playing with fire at this point, since Atari has said that they do not plan to document the video hardware. The human animal is remarkably adaptable and resilient. I'm sure there will be some rare individuals who can tolerate the Falcon's flicker, just as some people can sleep on a bed of nails or walk on hot coals. - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 5 Mon Mar 29, 1993 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 18:53 EST If noone mentioned it, I upload alittle program that kicks the 640x480 (x400?) Falcon mode up about 20khz... Imcompatible with a few programs, but makes for a much better, flicker free, display. A number of people on comp.sys.atari.st swear by it. Check it out... Called 78SYNC or something like that... Not too old. Just search for my name as uploader, and Falcon for a keyword. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 6 Mon Mar 29, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 21:17 EST If you have a monitor such as the NEC 3D that will work in ST or VGA modes, you will only need one monitor for all modes on the Falcon030. For VGA modes, I'm using a NEC 3D straight into the Falcon VGA adaptor. For ST modes, I'm using the the NEC 3D into a "ST to VGA adaptor cable" connected to the Falcon ST adaptor. It should not be a big deal to come up with a single adaptor with a switch to select either mode. Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 7 Mon Mar 29, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:43 EST Let me see if I've got this straight: True-color w/80 columns is only possible on an Atari SC monitor, but you wouldn't want to use it for productivity because of excessive flicker. Does that mean that ANY 80 column mode on an Atari SC monitor, for instance pseudo Monochrome Hi-rez, or 80 columns with 256 colors (is there such a mode?), will also suffer from the same excessive flicker? What if you're using an NEC-3D? Will you still get excessive flicker if you're in true-color 80 column mode or pseudo Monochrome Hi-rez? In other words, when the NEC is emulating an Atari SC, does the emulation include the SC's flicker? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 8 Mon Mar 29, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 21:55 EST Ron, How much does the NEC 3D monitor cost? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= David, >> Does that mean that ANY 80 column mode on an Atari SC monitor, >> for instance pseudo Monochrome Hi-rez, or 80 columns with 256 >> colors (is there such a mode?), will also suffer from the same >> excessive flicker? Yes, that's right; you can get ST high resolution and 640x480x256 modes on an SC1224 but they both suffer from the same flicker as true-color mode. Any Falcon screen mode that uses interlacing (i.e. has a vertical resolution greater than 200) flickers on an SC1224. - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 9 Mon Mar 29, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:04 EST Is it just me, or does it seem like the dialog to set falcon resolutions is intentionally vague, so that a casual observer wouldn't really see the limitations of the video hardware? It could just be co-incidence, though. ___________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 10 Mon Mar 29, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 22:42 EST Charles, USA Flex (800-444-4900) has new NEC 3D's with a 2 year warranty advertised at $459. "Referb" NEC 3D monitors are $399. The NEC 3D "remembers" and automatically resets screen sizing when you change modes and is known for looking good even in ST monochrome mode. Any VGA monitor compatible with the old CGA 15KHz sweep rate should also work in the Falcon030 ST modes. To reduce flicker on the SC1224, give SUPER78 a try from the lib's. The higher refresh rate goes a long way toward making the ST interlace mode usable. How's Warp9 for the Falcon030 doing? Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 11 Mon Mar 29, 1993 J.RENNER1 [Jim] at 23:08 EST Charles, a good way to reduce the flicker when viewing interlaced mode it to wear a pair of polarized sunglasses. If you feel too strange in them you can buy a polarized filter to stick on the front of the monitor. They have been around since the Amiga was introduced. They cost about $15. Jim. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 12 Mon Mar 29, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:59 EST John Russell is NOT at CeBit, he's in Ca, so call anytime. The area code is 510 not 415 anymore. I know what you mean Charles, I understand that some humans can withstand huge doses of neutron radiation too ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 13 Tue Mar 30, 1993 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 00:25 EST Sheldon.. Have you seen the NEW under $2000 486 stuff.. your wrong .. 16bit color is standard on most ALL the Local Bus video out there.. with 24bit on some of the better systems.. (and the Falcon030 is barely under $2000 in any usable form)... NON-INTERLACED to boot!! Al.. SVGA does not necessarily mean GOOD!!! a great monitor with the sharpness and detail (like my SM124) is gonna cost ya for some time now.. Sean.. NO!! not a plant.. honest!! just a person dealing in the Market place on a day to day basis.. and YOUR RIGHT about the programable Falcon Video... it has definite possibilities!! BUT ... what you have to add externally to the Falcon030 is NOT what the customers sees or readily deals with outa-the-box!! I am kinda playing devils advocate to WAKE-UP Atari and it's marketing crew to what kind of competition is REALLY out there!! IT'S BIG and with stated Falcon030 specs/price/performance.. well.. NOT A CHANCE.... I Know Atari knows this.. and it is MY theory this is the REAL reason for the delay.. My guess is the real Falcon030 will be a superior system to the one we are talking about here.. IT HAS TO BE!! Charles.. SEE!! The Codehead is RIGHT.. you need TWO MONITORS to be happy with the Falcon.. this is STUPID!! and adds yet MORE expense to the Falcon030 that other competitors won't and don't need.. STUPID... If you think I am hard on the Falcon030 wait till' the competition gets hold of 'em.. 'cause great sound alone won't carry 'er through.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 14 Tue Mar 30, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 01:26 EST D.ENGEL - It's NOT very attractive! Like I've said before, looking at an interlaced GEM desktop on an SC1224/SC1435 (actually, I saw it on a Magnavox 1CM35, which is the same as the SC1435, only better) is one of the most annoying things you'll ever see on a monitor. It looked JUST AS BAD as what the STE Screen Height Doubler program (DOUBLE.PRG or DOUBLE2.PRG) does for medium resolution. For pictures, though, it wasn't too bad. I'm GUESSING that the Falcon's interlacing shows alternate fields on the same lines because that's the impression I got from discussions I've had with others about it. By the way, I've heard 2 or 3 reports now in the past 2 days that AT LEAST TWO DEALERS HAVE DEMO FALCON030's in their stores. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 15 Tue Mar 30, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 02:16 EST I've think I've been through this "flicker-flack" somewhere on another platform. Charles isn't kidding, you probably will want to avoid the modes that flicker. We'll have to compromise and either stock up on aspirin or reserve those resolutions for "special needs." I look at the Falcon/SC1224 combo as the way to get to get the most Falcon for the buck. From what I have seen, you don't have to get a new monitor right away. You may want to, but you don't _have_ to. Your current color monitor will give you, I believe, more display choices than a VGA monitor. Some are more painful than pleasing, however. Besides, there will _always_ be some new resolution for which you must invest in more hardware, it's the law! ===Tomas=== March 29, 1993 @ 9:19:45 pm PST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 16 Tue Mar 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:03 EST Charles, NEC 3D monitors are long out of production, but they have been turning up in discounters' warehouses; apparently NEC cleared out its stock of both unsold 3Ds and refurbished ones. I've seen prices of $350-$400 for refurbished models in Computer $hopper. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 17 Tue Mar 30, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:21 EST Sounds to me like my present set up of an SM124 and a SC1224 with Monitor Master might serve me pretty well on the Falcon! (At least until I get an NEC- 3D.) But I still haven't heard an answer as to whether the NEC-3D flickers in 80-column True Color Mode. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 18 Tue Mar 30, 1993 D.JOHNSON143 [Eric Blair] at 09:33 EST Al, Dan and others --Thanks for the help on MultiTos, etc. I'll call JRI this week. Eric ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 19 Tue Mar 30, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:49 EST Jim, Hmm, I thought John was there. I know his Genlock is being showed there since someone online mentioned it. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 20 Tue Mar 30, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 22:33 EST so it the 30th.. how many demo Falcons have shipped? Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 21 Tue Mar 30, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:59 EST Steve-J I'm not sure which is sillier... 1) Designing a computer with VERY annoying flicker in Industy Standard graphics modes. or 2) Keeping the registers in the video hardware UNDOCUMENTED, so that nobody can do anything to fix #1. Your thoughts? ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 22 Tue Mar 30, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:46 EST Dan, nope. Bill took a couple Genlocks with him to display in the Atari booth, John's at home fixing MiniCoopers ;-) Hey, maybe ICD could be talked into porting thier FlickerFreeVideo product to the Falcon, it's a real life saver on the Amiga ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 23 Wed Mar 31, 1993 R.JONES82 [Bob Jones] at 01:39 EST Charles, Have you tried a multisync with the falcon? If so, will it display all the true color modes? Also how does the VGA 640x480 compare to using a atari sm124 monochrome for DTP? I would like to avoid having to use two monitors if possible. Bob... Ron, The trouble is it's difficult to obtain the NEC 3Ds ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 24 Wed Mar 31, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 03:15 EST Charles-------> I wouldn't say just ST low on a VGA. You can get 320x480x65000 on a VGA. Not as good as 640x480 but a good improvement over ST Low! :) Do the interlaced 80 column modes flicker on a Television as bad as on the SC1224? I assume the longer persistance phosphers help? Ron @ Explorer ---------> I belive the Falcon uses 31khz for the ST Compatible modes, not 15khz, so a CGA compatible monitor IS NOT required. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken! ----------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 25 Wed Mar 31, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 05:50 EST FAIRWEATHER - True Color w/ 80 columns is only possible (via the OS) on the 80- column ST/TV modes (640x200 or 640x400 interlaced). The flicker only comes in interlaced mode, so if you want True Color w/ 80 columns and no flicker, you're stuck with 640x200. Likewise, if you want ANY number of colors (2- 65,536) in 80 columns and no flicker (in an ST/TV mode), you're stuck w/ 640x200. If you use a ST mono monitor (or, like you asked, an NEC 3D w/ an appropriate adaptor), you can still get normal ST hi-rez (640x400 mono) w/o flicker (actually, even BETTER than normal since it has a 70Hz refresh rate rather than 60Hz). If you want anything higher than 640x200 (in up to 256 colors) w/o flicker, you'll need to hook up the NEC 3D to the VGA adaptor and use VGA mode. J.RICHTER - You DON'T NEED two monitors for the Falcon030. If *I* did, it would probably be an NEC 3D and a ST mono monitor. In all cases, a multisync/multiscan monitor w/ the proper specs should be fine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 26 Wed Mar 31, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 11:37 EST Bob Jones, No; like most Atari users I don't own a multisync monitor. If a multisync monitor is required to avoid flicker in true-color modes, the effective price of the Falcon just went up quite a bit, because multisyncs start at about $500. (If you're happy with a refurbished, discontinued model as Ron suggested, you can get that down to about $400, but that's still a pretty hefty chunk of money.) I guess it was naive of me to expect good results from one of these three Atari monitors (SC1224, SM124, and PTC1426) that I already own. If you're happy working in ST resolutions, you'll get along fine with an ST monitor; but if you want to use true-color without getting a headache, it looks like you'll need to buy a new monitor. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Sam, If I'm going to work in a 40-column mode (something which I avoid as much as possible) I'd rather use ST low resolution than 320x480 mode with its bizarre flattened aspect ratio. My opinion is that 320x480 mode is one of the Falcon's most useless video modes. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech Wednesday, March 31, 1993 8:22 am ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 27 Wed Mar 31, 1993 HISOFT at 12:10 EST Well I'VE got a monitor that will do all the Falcon modes. I know because I've tried them. Its a multi-sync that was supplied as an SVGA with a Gateway2000 system nearly 4 years ago. What you need is a mult-sync that'll sync down to CGA (aka ST) frequencies. If you've got a multi-sync that works with the ST and does VGA it should work fine with the Falcon. Unfortunately most modern monitors only want to go to the faster frequencies that SVGAs generally want. Owners of modern Amigas have the same "problem" Dave Nutkins, HiSoft. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 29 Wed Mar 31, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 20:47 EST Atari should release the information on the video hardware to developers so that what I think as inadequacies (SP?) can be fixed by 3rd party folks like what was done with Warp 9. If 3rd party can get better resolutions with software, why didn't Atari provide this in their software to begin with? Sounds like Atari went the cheap route with the graphics also. If you cannot get anything higher than 640 X 200 without flicker, then it's a shame as this is below the abilities of other platforms. They will simply blow it away and with a DSP card thrown into a clone, there is nothing the Falcon has to offer for the NEW consumer looking to purchase a computer. Again, Atari falls behind in the graphics department. They really need to concentrate on this area as it is more important to more people than sound. Atari has always been behind in the graphics area. I have seen some really nice displays from clones that simply cannot be outdone by an Atari computer. The first time buyer WILL consider this when purchasing a computer. The photo realistic displays on the clones I have seen are fantastic. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 30 Wed Mar 31, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:31 EST Anyone care to bet some virtual money on whether the Falcon will be for sale anywhere in the US before May 1? No fair waiting for Dateline Atari tomorrow. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 31 Wed Mar 31, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 22:41 EST Wayne Watson, > If you cannot get anything higher than 640 X 200 without > flicker, then it's a shame as this is below the abilities of other > platforms. It is not the Falcon that is the trouble here, it is the monitor. You can get 640 x 480 with 256 colors without flicker, just not on the Atari color monitors is what I think was being pointed out. With a SVGA montior it should be no problem and thus you get some good graphics that you may see on some other platforms. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 32 Wed Mar 31, 1993 J.RENNER1 [Jim] at 22:43 EST Wayne, The highest flicker free mode on the SC1224 is 640x200. Although with overscan that might be larger. Using a multisync you have access to 640x400 (ST HI) 640x480 (TT MED) and more. Atari is far from behind in the graphics arena. If anyone is looking for a monitor to use on the Falcon the best choice is a multisync that will sync from 15.75-31.5+ (as Dave Nutkins said) This will give you access to all video mode, overscan, true color and flicker free high res. These monitor are harder to find with MAC IIs and PCs using 31.5+ frequencies but i have even seen some 17" monitors in the $1000 range that still support the lower frequencies. The reason that Atari decided to use the lower frequencies (i am assuming) is for NTSC compatibility. Overscanning is posssible in NTSC, and Genlocks/Other video hardware will be cheaper and easier to build. Jim. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 33 Wed Mar 31, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 22:45 EST J.Richter ----------> If we stop for a few moments, take a deep breath, step back and look at the situation, lets see what we see. Atari CLAIMS that the Falcon is aimed at the FIRST TIME computer buying home user. Of course, the only way to aim a product at a certain market group is advertising. Now, people who do not own computers are not on GEnie. They didn't attend CEbit. They don't go to BCS meetings. Therefore: To sell the Falcon to Atari's stated market, they MUST ADVERTISE. Now, I assume you own a computer. I own a computer. Does anyone here NOT own a computer? OK. We can assume that WE are NOT the intended market for this version of the Falcon. That does't mean that we can't buy one, of course. BUT, try to put yourself in the intended market's place for a moment. You are NOT a computer guru. You may not have even sat down at a computer and touched a keyboard before. You don't know a '286 from a '486. You don't know that the most important part of the computer is the software. Put yourself in the buyers shoes, and don't look at this version of Falcon with a prejudiced eye and I think you may like what you see. A small case that can fit just about anywhere. Able to hook up to a TV. CD quality stereo sound. Photo quality graphics. All things that the general public can relate to. All things that NO other PC or MAC offer at the same price. YOU may know that a PC can do those things if properly equipped, and at a similar price, but what of the ignorant masses? So, can you still deny that the Falcon is a good value in the eyes of the first time computer buyer? I think people like Sheldon will be VERY successful in selling these things. But, as I said before, Atari MUST advertise this beast. My suggestion would be a spot on the Rush Limbaugh radio and TV show. With inflation, that was probably my 5 cents worth. ------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 34 Wed Mar 31, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 23:20 EST J.Richter, ! opps 1. We don't need to pay to read your praises of Klones Please post elsewhere if you want to talk about Clones!!!!!!!!!!Please 2. Your messages are not going to make Atari hold back the Falcon so they can spend 2 years revamping it so it will be even further behind the market when it finally comes out, competing with the Power PC. 3. Do you have a thing for !'s? Hope Bob will have good news friday. Bman ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 35 Thu Apr 01, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 01:04 EST All: Toad has responded to the call of the ultimate monitor and they do offer one for all! Now where did I write those numbers .28 dot pitch for $439 .39 dot pitch for $279 Well, down goes yet another complain about the Falcon. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 36 Thu Apr 01, 1993 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 01:06 EST You know, I was just going to post a message to the contrary, but after thinking about it, it is ridiculous that the Falcon can't do 640x480x65k on a VGA monitor. An $80 PC card can do this, and for a little over $100 you're up to 16.7m colors, non-interlaced (let's not even get into higher resolution modes). 640x480x256 will be fine for productivity and viewing GIFs, but I, for one, enjoy viewing some of the JPEG pictures available in the Photo Library in their full 24-bit glory. Won't be able to do that on a Falcon... at least not this model. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 37 Thu Apr 01, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 02:17 EST Ok, I thought you all were saying the highest non flicker resolution was 640 X 200. I crawl back into my corner now. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 38 Thu Apr 01, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 02:35 EST FAIRWEATHER - Yes, the display WILL FLICKER using 640x400 interlaced on ANY monitor (SC1224, SC1435, NEC 3D, etc.). That's all due to the interlacing, NOT the monitor used. D.ENGEL - 640x400 isn't exactly an "Industry Standard" graphics mode. SAM-RAPP - The "ST compatibility modes" on the Falcon030 are ONLY WITH A VGA MONITOR (so you can display 320x200, 640x200, and 640x400 resolutions on a VGA monitor, although I haven't gotten it clear if these are limited to 16, 4, and 2 colors, respectively, or if you can also use up to 16-bit True Color in 320x200 and 256 colors in 640x200 and 640x400). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 39 Thu Apr 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:09 EST Charles, $430 for the ADI MultiScan 15-inch that I have. That was the discount price. Funk, Yes, actually 640X400 IS an industry standard mode. It is used by many DOS laptops, and is one of the modes available in Windows. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 41 Thu Apr 01, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 11:52 EST One point that I would like to clear up. True Color isn't what Charles is using that is causing headaches, etc. Is is Interlace ON that is causing this problem. As for 80 Column, True Color on a VGA monitor, yes.. you are right. It doesn't work on a VGA monitor. This is because there isn't enough bus bandwidth to support that resolution. Sure, you could program the video hardware to support that resolution. In fact, there is nothing in VsetMode() that will prevent you from setting a 80 Column, True Color VGA mode, but the system just doesn't have the bandwidth to pull it off. Sorry.. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue and they may or may not be the same as Atari's views. Take them or ignore them at will. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 42 Thu Apr 01, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger S.] at 18:26 EST There has been much contradictory information--and just so much information-- posted here about the Falcon's resolutions and monitor use. I though I knew what the story was, but the more I read, the less I know. --Roger S. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 43 Thu Apr 01, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 23:07 EST Sam, I agreed with your commments about the Falcon, except for the part that Atari should advertise on the Rush Limbaugh show...eeek.. Well, I will be happy to see any advertising at this point, but I think Atari can do better with advertising in markets that will have a boarder spectrum of people in the audience. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 44 Fri Apr 02, 1993 HUTCH [FAIR-DINKUM] at 00:03 EST The ST compatability video modes of the Falcon are just exactly that... they allow emulation of ST monitor capabilities on a VGA monitor with the same number of colors you are limited to on an ST. And from the display on my MAG MX15F monitor, I can report that this works very well indeed. ST 640x400 hi resolution mode is especially nice on a screen with more terrain to work with. :) -Hutch- @ Fair Dinkum Tech ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 45 Fri Apr 02, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 01:03 EST CODEHEAD - Multisync's start at around $450 new (okay, well that's CLOSE to $500). And as you are probably aware, the only 'flicker mode' is 640x400 interlaced, true color or not (unless you want to do something silly like 320x400, that is!). Personally, I'm about to stop talking about monitors on the Falcon030 simply because it's driving me nuts that so many people don't seem to understand the concepts (for those people, I'd suggest just getting a plain old VGA monitor and just using a TV for displaying (washed out) 16-bit true color stuff, unless 320x480 is fine with them ). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 46 Fri Apr 02, 1993 C.ROUNTREE2 [RoadKill] at 04:51 EST Charles: DAK had refurbished VGA monitors with .28 dot pitch for $175. I expect I'm going to be using a TV for a while my self! It may be washed out, but it IS 20 inch! Wayne: You forget, you only get flicker above 640x200 on one of the old CGA stlye ST monitors. If you don't want flicker, shell our $250 for VGA monitor. John: My, John, now that your a free agent you're a free thinker too! Grrr. The chip is too slow? Grrrrrrrr. I feel like hitting something. Why couldn't they improve that? I don't care if it takes up double the system time to grab vid data! Lou: Rush limbaugh has the number three late night talk show. He comes in with a larger audience than Arsineo. That isn't a big enough market for you? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 47 Fri Apr 02, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 08:04 EST Sam Rapp, please stop trying to confuse us with facts and logic! ;-) ---------- Sean@TWP, Don't worry. The cronic complainers will find something new to complain about. :-) ------------- Why not just hold the Falcon back until the engineers fix all the things people are complaining about? If the clones come up with a new idea, hold it back and build that into the Falcon. That way, every complainer can get his complaint fixed. Unless, of course, someone complains about not getting a Falcon in the stores. In that case, they will have to ship some incomplete Falcons, and keep working on the next version. (Whadda ya mean, that's what they are doing? --- OH! ---- ) :-O ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 48 Fri Apr 02, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 17:38 EST More on m-sync prices: I checked a few places yesterday and saw $249 on up. They are REALLY getting cheap. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 49 Fri Apr 02, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 21:57 EST Hutch -----> I noticed that you are using a MAG MX15F monitor. That is the model I intend to use with the Falcon also. Answer me a question... If I have the MAG and a TV set, will I be able to do ALL of the Falcons video modes? Do you know if a TV set flickers as bad as the SC1224 in interlace? Thanks. ---------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 52 Sat Apr 03, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 01:50 EST Well, I hope the Toad "ultimate monitor" has a switchable monitor "type" signal on the cable, otherwise you'll have to be swapping the little adaptapators that Atari includes...one for SC or SM stuff and the other for a VGA. That is the one impediment to having a universal monitor, the monitor "type" signal coming in on the video connector has to switch between "SC1224 mode" and "VGA mode" to be able to use _ALL_ the possible modes on the same monitor....and of course the monitor has to be able to sync down to the 15Khz ST signals which the unit Toad has can do. It's not the interlaces fault either, it is the monitor type's fault, interlace was meant for TV's, which have high persistence phospors...good for TV broadcasts but lousy for mouse movements....nothing like seeing your mouse running in StarTrek "Warp speed" mode, with a comet's tail on it ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 53 Sat Apr 03, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 09:43 EST Jim Allen, Why don't you run with the LCIII & TOS card idea? :) I'd go that route if you could throw in a cart port and the midi ports (So I could run my ST midi software & midi expansion hardware). :) :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 54 Sat Apr 03, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:03 EST I wish you gouy would stop picking on the falcon030's inadequate video modes. You guys are being totally unfair to the falcon030 design team! After all, the falcon030 had state-of-the-art high resolution that surpassed all but the most expensive clone workstations, WHEN IT WAS DESIGNED... Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhh! _______________________ \hunderbird Just something I had to get off my chest... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 55 Sat Apr 03, 1993 G.MON2 at 10:49 EST From what I understand, there are basically 3 factors which determines which video modes are available to you: 1) The Monitor 2) The Video Adapter Plug 3) The Falcon030 THE MONITOR ------------------------------------------------------------------- There are basically three types of monitors out there: A) VGA monitors can only accept a video signal having a horizontal scan rate of 31.5 Khz. This number basically determines the number of horizontal lines it can display. If each picture frame is refreshed 60 times/sec, you can have about 525 lines of resolution. [ In reality however, some of these lines are 'blank' lines and you will have only about 480 useable lines. This is why you usually see a black border on your computer screen ] Anyway, the formula below gives the relationship: 31.5 Khz = 525 x 60 B) Broadcast type monitors can only accept a 15.75 Khz signal. The SC1224 and a standard NTSC TV are broadcast type monitors. Because they can only handle a horizontal scan rate of exactly half of the VGA monitor, they cannot display 525 lines refreshed at 60 times/sec. Instead, one of these values must be cut in half. For example, the SC1224 can have either have 262.5 (the actual number of useable lines is usually 200 or 240) lines refreshed at 60 times/sec: 15.75 Khz = 262.5 x 60 Or it can use the technique of interlacing to effectively display 525 lines refreshed at 30 times/sec: 15.75 Khz = 525 x 30 This is one reason why an interlaced NTSC image 'flickers'. The entire frame is effectively only refreshed 30 times/sec. Actually, in interlacing, the entire image is not really refreshed 30 times/sec. Instead, the image is really composed of two parts. A single NTSC image is called a frame. Each frame is composed of an odd and even field. The odd field contains all the odd horizontal scan lines of the image while the even field contains all the even horizontal scan lines. To display the image/frame, the odd field is first transmitted and then the even field is transmitted. The fields are transmitted 60 times per second. This means that the entire image/frame is effectively transmitted 30 times per second. Each field is composed of 262.5 scan lines giving a total of 525 scan lines for the entire interlaced image. The main thing to remember is that a VGA monitor can only accept a 31.5 Khz signal while a Broadcast type monitor can only accept a 15.75 Khz signal. C) Multisyncs are monitors that can accept multiple horizontal sync rates. If you want to buy one for use with the Falcon030, you must make sure that it can sync down to 15.75 Khz if you want to use some of the 15.75 Khz modes with it (such as the 640x400 16-bit True Color mode). Most of the newer units do not. However, you should be aware that even if you have the right Multisync, you will still not be able to transparently switch to all of the graphic modes from the desktop. The reason for this is the Video Adapter Plug. VIDEO ADAPTER PLUG ------------------------------------------------------------------- The Falcon030 basically supports three types of monitors: 1) Broadcast type monitors (SC1224 and NTSC TV) with a 15.75 Khz horizontal scanning frequency. 2) VGA type monitors with a 31.5 Khz horizontal scanning frequency. 3) The Atari SM124 (or equivalent) monochrome monitor with a 35.7 Khz horizontal scanning frequency. Atari will sell 2 types of Video Adapter Plugs: a Falcon-to-VGA adapter and a Falcon-to-ST_Monitor (SC1224 or SM124) adapter. The Video Adapter Plug tells the Falcon030 which type of monitor is connected to it. This is accomplished by two monitor identification pins on the video port of the Falcon030. The Video Adapter Plug will connect a certain combination of these pins to ground to tell the Falcon030 which monitor is connected. Why would Atari want to do that? Well, my guess is that it's a safety design. If you try to put a 31.5 Khz signal into the SC1224, you could accidently damage the monitor. The Video Adapter Plug prevents this from happening. After determining what type of monitor is attached, the Falcon030 will prevent you from using an inappropiate video mode by disabling that option from its menus. What this means is that even if you have a Multisync, the Falcon030 will only see it as is either a VGA or Broadcast type monitor, depending on which Video Adapter Plug you use. FALCON030 ------------------------------------------------------------------ The main factor that determines what video modes the Falcon030 can produce is the bandwidth of the memory system. For example, from what I understand, the 640x480 256 color VGA mode is the highest bandwidth standard mode available on the Falcon030. In this mode, each pixel is 8-bits. Hence, the total amount of memory this modes uses is: 307,200 bytes = ( 640 x 480 x 8 )/8 Now, the image is refreshed about 60 times/sec. This means that the video circuitry must read out 307,200 bytes from memory at 60 times/sec. This gives a total bandwidth of: 18,432,000 bytes/sec = 307,200 x 60 This is approximately the top bandwidth of the Falcon030 (I think it's actually a little higher since I heard that the Falcon030 actually displays this mode at the standard VESA refresh rate of 72 times/sec). But what about the 640x400 16-bit True Color Mode? In this mode, each pixel is 16-bits. Hence, the total amount of memory used is: 512,000 bytes = (640 x 400 x 16)/8 If the image is to be refreshed at 60 times/sec we would require a bandwidth of: 30,720,000 bytes/sec = 512,000 x 60 As you can see, this exceeds the bandwidth of the Falcon030. So, the Falcon030 cannot display this. But what if you interlace this image? Then the effective refresh rate is 30 times/sec and the required bandwidth is only: 15,360,000 bytes/sec = 512,000 x 30. This is well within the 18,432,000 bytes/sec limit of the Falcon030. This is why the Falcon030 can only display the 640x400 16-bit True Color mode in interlaced. It just doesn't have the bandwidth to do it non-interlaced. The above numbers are approximates. The actual bandwidth limits might be different but I think the main ideas are correct. DISCUSSION ------------------------------------------------------------------ If my understanding of how the Falcon030 video system works is correct, then it should be easy to answer some of the commonly asked questions: Q1: If I have a Multisync, can I get all the Falcon030's video modes? A1: That depends. You must have a Multisync that can sync down to 15.75 Khz. Most of the newer ones can't. Even if you do, you still won't be able to switch to all of the available video modes from the Desktop. This is because the Video Adapter Plug makes the monitor look like either a VGA or Broadcast type monitor to the Falcon030. Once the Falcon030 determines what type of monitor is connected, it will disable some of options available to you as a safety precaution. What this means is that you will have to manually switch adapter plugs in order to use all the Falcon030's video modes. Or you can buy a third party video adapter plug. The prototype I saw at Toad Computers contains a little switch that changes the connections to the 2 identification pins. This allows you to switch adapters without manually removing it. From what I've seen, the Falcon030 will then do a soft reboot (similiar to using the Monitor Master to switch from the SM124 to the SC1224). Q2: If I have a Multisync, will the 640x400 16-bit True Color Mode still flicker? A2: Yes. As noted above, the Falcon030 can only display the 640x400 16-bit True Color Mode in interlaced. It cannot do it in non-interlaced since that would exceed its memory bandwidth limit. An interlaced mode will flicker regardless of which monitor you use. You can lessen the flicker effect by using a monitor with a high persistance (such as a TV). Q3: If VGA monitors can only accept a 31.5 Khz signal, then how does it display modes with 640x200 resolution? According to my calculations, this mode (refreshed at 60 times/sec) is a 15.75 Khz signal. In particular, how can a VGA monitor display ST-Medium mode? A3: The Falcon030 uses the same trick that the TT030 uses. It basically sends each horizontal line twice. This is what is called "Line Doubling". Since it sends out each horizontal line twice, it effectively sends out a 640x400 (31.5 Khz) line image. By the way, an IBM clone with a VGA card does the same thing when it is running in CGA (15.75 Khz) mode. RECOMMENDATIONS ------------------------------------------------------------------ My personal recommendation is to just get a nice VGA monitor to use with the Falcon030 and use your TV or SC1224 for the 640x400 (768x480 overscan) 16-bit True Color mode. This mode is really design for video work anyway (i.e. for producing nice computer animations and recording it on video tape). Some of you might think that the Falcon030's interlaced modes are a liability. However, for video work, interlacing is a neccessity. Sure there are inexpensive PC clones out there that can do 640x480 16-bit True Color in non-interlace. But you can't record your animations to a VCR with that setup! Finally, someone upstream questioned Atari's policy of not documenting the video hardware registers. Commodore has the exact same policy with the new AGA graphics chipset. According to Commodore, this was done to make it easier for Commodore to upgrade the graphic capabilities in any future Amiga model. If they had documented all the registers, then any future chipset would have to fully emulate them to remain compatible. This makes it a lot more complicated for the engineer. In addition, it puts an architectural constraint on any future chipset. An example of this is the 80x86 family. The need to maintain 8086 compatibility is an architectural constraint on the 80386. In other words, if Atari documented all the video registers of the Falcon030, it might place some constraints on the abilities of future Falcon models. The policy that both Atari and Commodore has adopted is that programmers should just use the documented OS calls for most of their graphics needs. I apologize for the extremely long post. I only hope that it clarifies some of the confusion surrounding the Falcon030's video modes instead of adding to the confusion. If there are any errors, I would be grateful for any corrections. --Gerry ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 57 Sat Apr 03, 1993 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 11:52 EST Y'know, if the Falon030 didn't use the existing SC1224/SM124 monitors (in addition to others) you'd all be screaming. Even though it _does_, you're still crying. Amazing. -Tom McComb {11:22 am} Saturday, April 3, 1993 ================ EXCELLENT post, Gerry! Thanks alot!!! Solid information and no bellyaching! -Tom ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 58 Sat Apr 03, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 13:11 EST Gerry, Thanks for that post. It cleared up a lot for me. Hopefully there will be a third party that will make this all in one adapter or someone provide the wiring diagram so us do-it-yourself type can make one. I would really like to have 1 monitor for a change. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 59 Sat Apr 03, 1993 MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 13:43 EST Gerry, Very nice post. Now I am wondering. I have a Magnavox 8CM515 monitor which supports various inputs, all NTSC sync rates. I works fine with my MSTe in Med and Low rez. It also works wonderfully with the video output from a VCR which is 525 line interlaced. I see no flicker. Will I see flicker from a Falcon? If so, why? I suspect I will, since people have reported flicker on the 1CM135 which is a newer version of the 8CM515. Could it be that the monitor does not know how to deal with the equalization pulses during the vertical retrace period when dealing with non-composite (RGB Analog) input? Could it be that the Falcon is not really outputting proper sync for interlaced display? Maybe the video bandwidth for the RGB Analog channel is different than the Composite channel? A lot of this just doesn't quite make sense to me yet. The bandwith issue is interesting. On a normal TV signal the bandwidth is 4 MHz or less. A standard TV channel it 6 MHz wide. The carrier is, as I remember, .25 MHz above the lower end of the channel. The sound subcarrier is 4.5 MHz above the lower end. For a simple B&W signal that would restrict the bandwidth to 4.25 MHz. This doesn't include the bandwidth of the fm sound subcarrier, which would reduce it some more. Now with color, the luminance info is carried where the simple B&W signal was carried - it is, in effect, a B&W signal. The chroma, or color, information is encoded on the 3.58 MHz color subcarrier. This means that the luminance bandwidth is even further reduced. This, I guess, is why ST Med looks so bad on a TV set. I'm not sure what this all means, except that I still don't understand why, if the Falcon030 really puts out 60 field/30 frame truly interlaced video at 15,750 horizontal rate, it should flicker anymore than a normal TV or VCR signal. The only thing I've heard that makes sense is phospher persistance. I don't doubt that it does flicker, I just don't know why. I keep feeling that there is a piece of the puzzle that I am missing. Mike ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 60 Sat Apr 03, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 13:59 EST Tom: They aren't complaining about the fact the SC monitor is supported, they are complaining about the fact Atari didn't pick a monitor for use with the ST that would be appropriate for a computer that would be released almost a decade later. Silly Atari. I guess everyone 8 years from now will complain about interlacing in 1600x1200 w/32bit color on VGA monitors. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 61 Sat Apr 03, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 14:15 EST I don't think it's necessarily "belly-aching" to take a good realistic look at the Falcon, and compare its capabilities to those of other systems. Great post, Gerry! That should help dispel the misconceptions many folks appear to have about the Falcon's video abilities. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech Saturday, April 3, 1993 9:42 am ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 62 Sat Apr 03, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 15:29 EST Gerry - your message was quite helpful. Let me frame one (hopefully last) question: I presently have an SM124 and a SC1224. If I use just those two monitors with my Falcon, What will I be missing out on that I would otherwise be able to achieve if I also had a VGA monitor? In other words what can a VGA monitor do that a SC1224 with a SM124 can't do, particularly with reference to flicker vs. no flicker, number of colors, number of columns and square pixels vs. non-square pixels. I'm just trying to figure out whether I should spend my bucks on a VGA monitor or on a bigger harddrive. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 63 Sat Apr 03, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 15:38 EST Gerry, Excellent study. Your recommendation is what I was saying all along. Get a VGA non-multiscan, flat-color for applications. And keep your bright SC1224 for games and graphics. Your TV can be used for video work. The Falcon can do lots of things, you will want more than one display. I have seen ads lately for multi-session XA-ready CD-rom drives, Photo-CD compatible. They even come with DOS Photo-CD software. All for under $300 ($455 in Canada). When is the Falcon Photo CD software coming out? Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 64 Sat Apr 03, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 15:51 EST By the way, I'm not complaining about these monitor issues. I'm just trying to get enough information to make an informed decision as to whether I need a new monitor or whether my current SC1224 and SM124 will suit my purposes if the Falcon ever gets released here in the US. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 65 Sat Apr 03, 1993 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 16:29 EST That was a very informative post, Gerry. I hope it clears up the confusion of the video/monitor. I have only a VGA adaptor so I can only use my multisync. I wanted to see for myself, though, what the sc1224 monitor could do so I wired up my own sc1224 adaptor and while testing I discovered that changing the monitor sense pins... NOTHING happened. It does not automatically reset the system. So now I have both adaptors... I'll use the sc1224 adaptor, though, only for compatibility testing. Everything I need, I can obtain with the VGA modes. (80column true color 'sounds' like a 'must-have' but unless I get a genlock that requires it, I'll be more than satisfied with the VGA modes) I just feel that with this (finally) higher resolution, hooking up a atari monitor to the Falcon030 is like putting a 4cly engine into a Corvette... it still looks snazzy and you can still drive it to the mini-mart to pick up a loaf of bread but... don't try to drive in the left lane ;-) Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 66 Sat Apr 03, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 17:30 EST Wonderful post on the Falcon030 video modes Gerry! Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 67 Sat Apr 03, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:03 EST Thanks, Gerry. Excellent explanation. You obviously know your stuff. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 68 Sun Apr 04, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 00:06 EST A while back, someone tried to justify the lack of documentation of the hardware registers by citing Commodore's new AGA chipset as an example. It seems to me that C= isn't doing a whole lot better than atari, and emulating their destructive techniques seems like a rather illogical decision. I'll admit that documenting the registers would impose upon the designer of a future chip, but at this point in time this is an incredibly poor excuse because of the fact that atari's track record of producing new hardware shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that any new video chipset is several YEARS away, giving the designers plenty of time to do whatever compatability they deem nifty. Besides, documenting the video registers by no means requires them to keep backward compatability. Just as they documented the ROM addresses in my ST and moved them for TOS 2.0x, they can document video registers and then change them in new models/chipsets. Furthermore, since we cannot depend on new hardware for many years, having the registers available will enable clever programmers to "work around" the deficiencies of the current hardware. Just as we had "Spectrum 512" and now "PhotoChrome" using interrupts and tricks of hardware registers in the video chips to get results unavailable (read: impossible) through OS calls, therefore keeping the falcon030 competative for a longer period. This is in the best interest of atari. Simply put, there are programming tricks which can make the hardware "do the impossible", but which _cannot_ be done without documentation. To deprive developers with this information is to deny the falcon030 owners of all kinds of interesting and innovative products. Sure, programs can be written with only OS calls, but then why not write them for a clone? The main() reason I write software for the atari's is BECAUSE of the video architecture and the way that "impossible" things can be done (if you're clever). I know a lot of atari programmers and they feel the same way. Atari is shooting itself in the foot here. In recent years I have become rather cynical of atari, due to the way they've treated the userbase/developers. Perhaps it is my cynicism which makes me think that atari is withholding the video register info so that they can use them themselves, and have an advantage over other developers. Microsoft has been confirmed to have done this regarding certain aspects of Windows, and there seem to be some people within atari's top executives who have been accused of being arrogant enough to equate themselves with microsoft. To summarize: a few weeks ago, someone commented that they have been shown a falcon030 demo by Bob Brodie, which reproduced the Super Nintendo 3-D graphics mode (like that used in Pilotwings and Super Mariokart), and that the effect only consumed 10% of the CPU bandwidth). I'll bet anyone here dollars to doughnuts that this effect was _not_ done with any OS call. It was achieved through clever use of the undocumented video registers. The sad thing is that the euro hacker clubs will "hack" the demos and figure out the registers and the "secret" will get out in an unofficial and uncontrolled way, and just make the whole thing worse. Sorry for the long post, but I felt compelled to explain the plight of a die- hard atari programming lover, and how sad it makes me feel to have this thrown in my face after waiting so many months for the falcon to arrive. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 69 Sun Apr 04, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 00:25 EST J.ALLEN27 - Adaptapators, huh? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 70 Sun Apr 04, 1993 S.FARWIG [STAN] at 00:45 EST Gerry: Thanks very much for "your extremely long post". I understand the video modes better than I did, but given my tech backwardness, I suspect that I will only fully understand when the FALCON is here to play around with...if I'm still around that is. As for multisyncs, here is the information I have on my Princeton Ultra 1400 (14 inch,.28mm pitch ) if it is of any help to anyone. The spec list horizontal syn at 15-36.5 kHz so it should handle the Falcon modes in that respect (and I think it is one of the "newer" ones) I don't know what the significance, if any, the PRINCETON's list of compatibility has for the FALCON, but here it is: IBM 8514/A, Super VGA (800x600)...no help I guess with the FALCON's bandwidth(?)..., VGA, PGA, EGA, MDA, MCGA, CGA (have no idea what most of those abbreviations are since I don't traffic outside the ATARI market much), Apple Mac, TrueVision Targa & Vista, Hercules and other compatibles. It has a switch for Analog/TTL display & 16/64 Color TTL. It allows sizing of the screen both horizontally and vertically, as well as positioning it horizontally & vertically. It has an "overscan" switch that simply enlarges the display to the border of the screen. The other method of overscan with the German Autoswitch board is great on it and a bit overpowering when used along with the resident overscan method. I must admit I don't much like what it does to the graphics I create with SPECTRUM (the coloring I work hard to achieve is just too compromised), but the display of graphic from other souces (i.e. GIF via Photochrome) is very comparable. The price: I dug out the sales slip and can't tell you what the monitor alone was. The price was $449, but that included a custom switch box my dealer did to allow switching between the Princeton & my SC1224 as well as handling sound output to external speakers. As I said: I don't know how much of this relates to the FALCON, but hope it may be of interest to some. Stan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 71 Sun Apr 04, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 06:19 EDT Gee Gerry, I'm not sure I have enought memory to read your posts! ===Toas=== April 04, 1993 @ 0:12:22 am PST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 72 Sun Apr 04, 1993 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 14:08 EST ||Y'know, if the Falon030 didn't use the existing SC1224/SM124 || ||monitors (in addition to others) you'd all be screaming. || I hate to say I agree with that statement. I'll bet a lot more TTs would be sold if there were some way to hook up an existing monitor, as opposed to _having_ to spend an additional $300+ for a monitor. Of course, you'd want the better monitor later, but it's always a matter of upfront cash, y'know? === Gerry, how about uploading that valuable post to the library here, so it does not get archived in with all the other "stuff." It's worth keeping on file. mike.k ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 73 Sun Apr 04, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 20:30 EDT Charles, I got the impression from one of your messages that you didn't think ANY of your present Atari monitors was satisfactory. I hope that wasn't the case. My experience with the Falcon has been that applications are best run on the PTC 1426 at 640x480x256. The graphics are best done on an SC1224/SC1435 in True Color mode. While none of our current monitors are good at all video modes, they are all good at portions of the video capabilities of the Falcon030. I think it's reasonable to feel that most people will plan their purchases based upon their projected usage of the Falcon030. It's also a given that there would be screaming if the Falcon didn't use the existing monitor(s) in at least some fashion. Mike, I agree, Gerry's message is a keeper. Let's get it in the library. best regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 74 Sun Apr 04, 1993 K.HULET [Ken] at 21:30 EDT Gerry- Thanks for the monitor info. When I get my Falcon I'll see how my SM124 and SC1224 look before buying something new. Sounds like VGA might be the way to go. BTW, the latest Computer Shopper has about 4 pages of monitor data. Still a few 15.75 kHz ones available. Question- Didn't Dave Troy, Silhouette, and Straight Fax developers have an RTC recently? Can't find the transcript posted here. Any one know where it is? Thanks.........Ken ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 75 Sun Apr 04, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 21:46 EDT Ken, yep they had a RTC on the 31st of March. Unfortunately, I when I used ALADDIN to upload the RTC I changed my path for the file and it never was uploaded. It is uploaded now. *******Brian********* Written on Sunday 04 April 1993 at 10:46 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 76 Sun Apr 04, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 22:56 EDT >Sam, > >Whats wrong with Rush Limbaugh, the show has one of the largest audiences in >the country. If Atari was advertised on that show it would be a good shot in >the arm of the dead ST market. Bob, maybe thats why I SUGGESTED that it would be a good place to advertise!!! Gerry---------> Following your lead.... Resolution Bits Refresh Megabits/Sec (Colors) ========== ==== ======= ============ ======== 640 x 480 8 60 147.5 256 800 x 600 5 61.44 147.5 32 1024 x 768 3 62.5 147.5 8 1280 x 960 2 60 147.5 4 1280 x 960 1 120 147.5 2 (mono) 1280 x 1024 1 112.5 147.5 2 (mono) All these potential modes use the same video bandwith, so perhaps getting them on the Falcon could be a possible upgrade? I'll bet 1280 x 960 @ 120 hz looks REAL GOOD. Someone will make it so. ----------------> Sam 'cause He who controls the spice, controls the Universe! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 77 Mon Apr 05, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 02:58 EDT G.MON2 - I couldn't have imagined a more thorough post! FAIRWEATHER - With a SM124 and SC1224, the highest non-interlaced resolution you'll have is 640x400 monochrome and the highest color non-interlaced resolution you'll have is 640x200 w/ 16-bit true color. If you want any higher color non-interlaced resolution than 640x200, you'll need a VGA or multisync monitor. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 78 Mon Apr 05, 1993 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 03:57 EDT You know, I saw a picture viewer for the Amiga 1200 the other day being demonstrated on an RGB monitor (SC1224 equivilant). They ran the program from a 640x200x256 desktop, but when they dragged a picture file to the program icon, the program kicked the display into 640x400x(whatever) mode to view the picture. When they hit a key, the program kicked back to the 640x200 desktop. Those writing picture viewers for the Falcon may want to consider this technique. Those with an SC1224 could run their desktop in 640x200x256, view a picture in 640x400x32k, then return to their regular desktop. Since interlacing isn't too bad when viewing pictures, it would work out well (and save the user the trouble of switching modes when viewing a true color picture). Unfortunately, it sounds as if this wouldn't work for multisync users, at least if they ran their desktop in VGA mode, for the reasons that Gerry provided in his excellent message. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 79 Mon Apr 05, 1993 T.ZENTHOEFE1 [Tom Z.] at 08:43 EDT Bob, could you let us in on what the most current date is for Falcon availability? What are the chances that I will be able to get one this month? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 80 Mon Apr 05, 1993 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 13:08 EDT Soul Manager, Already done! One problem you'll discover, however, is that MultiTos doesn't like resolution changes. So if you're willing to do without it (at least for picture viewing) then all'll be fine. (I'd've uploaded this GIF viewer for the Falcon, but Sean gets frustrated at the simple mention of the Falcon... don't know what'd happen if yet another program was uploaded for the Falcon ;-) Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 81 Mon Apr 05, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 18:20 EDT Dr. Bob: I don't mind people talking about the Falcon030, it does however frustrate me when a developer says, "Oh, I've been playing this awesome game with realtime gourand shading and texture mapping and I just can't stop playing it!" I imagine that frustration will end when a Falcon030 finds its way onto my desk. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 83 Mon Apr 05, 1993 G.ANDERSON at 19:50 EDT Keeping in mind that Apple's Scully has gone over to the liberal side of the house with his open support of Clinton it might not take too much for us to convert Rush from Mac to Atari. I echo the suggestion..... Advertise on Rush Limbaugh, heck.. even I like to listen in to his show...... usually . By the way... will someone PLEASE confirm for me if a VGA monitor (multi- scan) will display the interlaced Falcon modes or not? There is NO reason why a good multiscan can't handle interlace (my NEC 3D does it fine) and they should be able to display almost ALL the Falcon video modes. Hmm, seems like I've read this request before Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 84 Mon Apr 05, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 21:07 EDT Bob, I thought the PT1426 was discontinued along with the SLM laser printers? It's not a realistic solution if so... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 87 Mon Apr 05, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 22:15 EDT Greg, Yes, the NEC 3D works with the Falcon030 in the RGB interlace modes. Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 91 Wed Apr 07, 1993 AEO.5 [Ed Krimen] at 21:29 EDT >You know, I saw a picture viewer for the Amiga 1200 the other day being >demonstrated on an RGB monitor (SC1224 equivilant). They ran the program from >a 640x200x256 desktop, but when they dragged a picture file to the program >icon, the program kicked the display into 640x400x(whatever) mode to view the >picture. When they hit a key, the program kicked back to the 640x200 desktop. > >Those writing picture viewers for the Falcon may want to consider this >technique. Those with an SC1224 could run their desktop in 640x200x256, view >a picture in 640x400x32k, then return to their regular desktop. Since >interlacing isn't too bad when viewing pictures, it would work out well (and >save the user the trouble of switching modes when viewing a true color >picture). I do this all the time with View TT 1.32. I run it in TT medium, but when I want to view an image in TT low, it will show it in TT low. No rebooting required. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 92 Thu Apr 08, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 13:49 EDT Joey, My point is that if you own one, it will work! Just like if you own any of the ST series of monitors: SM124, SM147, SC1224, and SC1435. regards, Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 93 Thu Apr 08, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:07 EDT I took my Falcon to a multi-platform user group meeting on Tuesday. When I got there, they had a 486 set up with an overhead projector and VGA monitor. I sat the Falcon down, sent my SC1435 back to the car, and plugged the VGA monitor into the Falcon's adaptor. Voila! Overhead projection _and_ a large-screen VGA monitor at once. I believe this is the first time I've gone to a meeting where the projector would work with an ST-family product without some kind of rigamoroll. Neat! I gave a short talk about the Falcon to the entire group and then they broke up into sigs by platform and I and 5 or 6 Atarians went to a smaller room. Only then was it pointed out to me that I'd neglected to mention the magic words "true color" during my talk! I guess it's become such a matter of course to me that it didn't occur to me to put it at the top of my list. Eek. The graphics demos did wow 'em, though. I also showed how you can record to disk with no more hardware packed along with it than a microphone. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 94 Thu Apr 08, 1993 B.GOCKLEY [Brian G.] at 14:49 EDT Wow Dot, that sounds great! I'm thrilled that Falcon owners will have access to all that VGA based _stuff_! And both monitors at once? I think we have a new Trade show vendor's machine! Brian G. @ ST Informer Magazine (Preparing for CT AtariFest '93 June 12-13) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 96 Sat Apr 10, 1993 D.JOHNSON143 [Eric Blair] at 13:21 EDT I have a question concerning the Falcon's case. An English magazine, Atari ST Review in it's April 1993 issue quotes Darryl Still, Marketing Manager for Atari UK, saying that the first release of the Falcon would consist of ST style cased Falcons (mainly targeted at developers and enthusiasts) and that around June consumer casing would arrive. Further there is another news item which states that the Falcon 030 will have a two part design in it's final form. Can anyone at Atari comment on these items in Atari ST Review? Is the ST style cased Falcon a developers/enthusiast version with a consumer version (with two piece case) to come later? Will the first Falcon's be as upgradeable as the latter. (Within reason, we all know that specifications are subject to change without notice). In any event, best wishes on getting the Falcon out. Eric ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 97 Sat Apr 10, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 14:22 EDT Eric, It's apparent that he was quoted incorrectly, or mis-spoke himself during the interview. There are no plans to ship a two piece Falcon030 in June of this year. The current Falcon030 is the _ONLY_ Falcon030 at this time. I've stated before when asked about a two piece case that it is not an unreasonable assumption that at some point in time we might do such a machine. We have stated that the Falcon030 is an entry level computer. Previous entry level computers have later been re-designed to include a two piece design (ST to Mega ST, STE to Mega STE). I would also point out that if we were preparing a different version of the Falcon030 so quickly (in just two months) it would have made sense to display the machine at CeBIT, which ended just a short time ago. There was no such unit announced at CeBIT, nor was such a unit shown at CeBIT. On behalf of Atari, I apologize for the confusion caused by the article in ST Review, and thank you for your understanding. Your kind wishes of success are also appreciated! Sincerely, Bob Brodie Director of Communications Atari Computer Corporation ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 98 Sat Apr 10, 1993 G.MON2 at 17:07 EDT EVERYONE: Thanks for the nice comments. They were very much appreciated! MIKE-ALLEN: From what I understand, there are several reasons why a TV does not flicker even though it's interlaced. One of the reasons is that a TV uses high persistence phosphers. Another reason is the type of images that is typically displayed on a TV. Most of these images have lots of gradual shading (i.e. flesh tones). If you try to view an image with lots of contrast (and thin horizontal lines) on a TV, you will notice the flicker. Someone earlier mentioned the Weather Channel as example where you can notice this effect. This is why you didn't see any flicker with your VCR connected to the Magnavox 8CM515 monitor. The Magnavox was displaying the type of images that minimizes the flicker effect. If the Falcon030 is connected to the Magnavox and displaying similiar type images (such as GIF or PhotoCD images), you probably won't see any flicker either. The only time when you would notice the flicker is if you are displaying images that tends to enhance the flicker effect. These are images with lots of contrast and thin horizontal lines. For example, the flicker is really noticable in the Desktop. That's because the Desktop icons and window borders have lots of thin horizontal lines. FAIRWEATHER: If you use the SM124 and SC1224 monitors with the Falcon030, you would not be able to use the 640x480 non-interlaced modes (in 2,4,16 and 256 colors). In my opinion, these are really the nicest modes the Falcon030 offers. They're ideally suited for DTP, CAD, and word processing. I think the main benefit of being able to use the SM124 and SC1224 monitors is that it allows current ST owners to upgrade to the Falcon030 with the least initial expense possible. In the end however, I think that most people would probably prefer having a nice VGA monitor for productivity work and using the SC1224/TV for video work. W.PARKS3: That's strange. It sure looked like the Falcon030 rebooted when monitor sense pins changed. Toad Computers had a prototype monitor adapter attached to the Falcon030 (it was just a bare circuit board connecting the proper pins to the monitor and a little jumper). The Falcon030 was connected to a Multisync and I saw Jennifer fiddle with the adapter. Then after a delay, the Falcon030 seemed to reboot. I just assumed that she changed the jumpers. Hmmm. Next time I'm up there, I'll ask. MIKE.KELLER and BOB-BRODIE: I'm a little wary of uploading my post to the library since I'm not sure how accurate it is. For example, it looks like I'm wrong on the issue of the Falcon030 rebooting when the monitor pins are changed. In addition, I heard rumors that the Falcon030 has a VESA 72 hz refresh rate as opposed to 60 hz. --Gerry ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 100 Sat Apr 10, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 19:53 EDT Bob, Then what monitor would I use with my TT?:-) It's not a big deal for me, I know what to get but if your targeting a new user (which I hope you are) they won't go through the trouble I do to get things. They'll just follow the path of least resistance. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 101 Mon Apr 12, 1993 D.JOHNSON143 [Eric Blair] at 00:46 EDT Bob Brodie, Thanks for the clarification--on a Saturday no less. I hope that the Falcon is successful enough to spur a line of computers ala the Macintosh, with tower cased falcons, laptop falcons, and more. Eric A dissatisfied Clone owner. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 102 Mon Apr 12, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 12:27 EDT Joey, You can always get a monitor switch to go between the different systems. :) Or get another one used online here. For the new users that are following the path of least resistance, they can get a VGA monitor pretty easily, and our dealers will also be carrying our line of high quality RGB monitors. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 103 Mon Apr 12, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 15:00 EDT It is possible to change the desktop so that the flicker is less noticable. I remember that is one of the things that we did when I was there. Then again, its also possible to do the opposite: To set desktop and window backgroundd and use desktop icons with thin horizontal lines everywhere and you will have a massive headache after looking at that screen for about 2 mins! But, I just wanted to make the point that the flicker can be worked around. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 104 Tue Apr 13, 1993 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 00:17 EDT F A L C O N 0 3 0 ' s ARRIVE IN USA. They leave Customs and arive at the Sunnyvale Wharehouse tommorow. They then under go Quality Assurance testing and ship at weeks end. YeeeHa! -Tom McComb {12:13 am} Tuesday, April 13, 1993 ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 105 Tue Apr 13, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 01:18 EDT Here's the news we've been waiting for....... > Hi David, actually we've just been taking questions >on Atari Works so far, you're the first one to ask that! >Congratualtions. :) The Atari Falcon030s arrived in the US today, >and are going thru US Customs. We expect them in the warehouse >here in Sunnyvale tomorrow. We'll be putting them thru Q/A, and >then sending them out. From the April 12 Real Time Conference with Bob Brodie and Pradip Fatehpuria. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 106 Tue Apr 13, 1993 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 08:02 EDT Damn! If they'd found another reason to hold back for a couple of weeks, I could have afforded the 14/65 combo! ;) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 107 Tue Apr 13, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 08:26 EDT Chazz, This is the first time someone actually wants ATARI to hold back the Falcon030! Very funny. Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 110 Tue Apr 13, 1993 G.GRAHAM9 [Glenn] at 18:45 EDT That's great news about there arrival, Bob! I guess, it will be a long time before us Canadians see them. I just heard today that the most _determined_ Atari dealer in Toronto (Compuworld) hasn't seen an application form yet for the falcon. Does Sonny have to order the form first or does Atari have any record of old die-hard sde(sp) dealers. I hope he gets some soon for everyones sake Glenn ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 111 Tue Apr 13, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 18:56 EDT ...and then Sam said, "Let there be Falcons!" Now to buy one! I'm already getting a spot on my desk. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 114 Wed Apr 14, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 03:22 EDT BOB-BRODIE - So is it possible for you to look up somewhere if there is CURRENTLY an authorised Atari dealer in the Atlanta area (and one that has signed the new dealer agreement)? Every time I've asked before, (if I get a response) I get a list of stores that either stopped carrying Atari or went out of business YEARS ago! TOWNS - If you set all colors to black, there's NO FLICKER WHATSOEVER! How's that for less noticeable? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 117 Fri Apr 16, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 01:22 EDT Jim Allen, In WinDoze, mouse trails are a "feature". --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 118 Fri Apr 16, 1993 JWEAVERJR [John@RSCARDS] at 12:08 EDT ...and a darned good feature too, if you're using a laptop with a slow- response display. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 119 Fri Apr 16, 1993 P-DIRECT [Sean@TWP] at 19:20 EDT All: If anyone knows, is it possible to do 1280x960 monochrome on the Falcon w/external hardware? Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 120 Sat Apr 17, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:12 EDT Well : I ordered my Falcon from Atari today, im having it Red Labeled in and it was promised to ship by Tuesday, I will have it Wednesday. They really weren't kidding this time. Curt Guitar Center @MPLS ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 121 Sun Apr 18, 1993 D.HOHENSTEIN [PRIMETIME] at 15:53 EDT Okay! Now that the Falcons are available, what's the final word for price, configuration, and packaged software? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 122 Sun Apr 18, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 23:03 EDT Primetime : The version that is shipping is 4/65 and is $1295.. it is bundled with everything that has been mentioned for months, includiing MultiTos and Atari Works... Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 123 Mon Apr 19, 1993 M.POCHE [Mick] at 04:22 EDT Would anyone happen to know if the Stereo-Tek 3D glasses will work with the Falcon? Perhaps in true-color? They work on my MSTE in 16Mhz, so I assume that it _may_ be possible that they will work on the Falcon, but who knows? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 124 Mon Apr 19, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:03 EDT The only factor which would probably prevent the StereoTek 3D glasses from working is lack of a cartridge port. The rest is pure bit-banging. _________________________ \hunderbird 'cause nobody confirmed that the U.S. Falcon030's have a cart. port. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 125 Mon Apr 19, 1993 P-DIRECT [Sean@TWP] at 19:27 EDT TBird: No one at Atari has verified the existance of the power input. Am I supposed to believe it doesn't have one? BTW, photos of the Falcon show the thing, and every spec sheet since September has had it listed. That's good enough for me. Incidently, does anyone know where I could get replacement glasses? One of the LCD panels cracked, and needless to say, the image isn't 3-D any longer. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 126 Tue Apr 20, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 15:49 EDT Every Falcon030 I have ever seen to date has had a cartridge port on the side of it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 127 Tue Apr 20, 1993 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 18:26 EDT Does the Falcon030 have a keyboard? I don't remember anyone explicitly stating that it had actual keys. :-) I _do_ seem to recall someone somewhere saying that it does have a case (whew! thank goodness;-) Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 128 Tue Apr 20, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:03 EDT Sorry Sean, but existance of the power input has been verified by reliable sources. Furthermore, no plans to remove the power input have been announced, or have been reported to have been announced by reliable sources. The power input is quite easily shielded to meet FCC standards, while the cratridge port is what is commonly referred to as a "Broadcast Antenna", therefore there is no supporting reasoning for deleting the power cord, while removing the cartridge port has a tangible benefit. Dr. Bob: Unfortunately, the Falcon030 _DOES_ have a case. It probably be more contemporary looking if it didn't have a late 70's toy computer case. It would have been less expensive to design/manufacture because retro-fitting the Falcon innards into a finite space is an engineering challenge which only adds unnecessary cost to the design. The money could have been better spent on the design challenges of a 32 bit CPU bus, improved video bandwidth, faster clock, SIMM RAM expansion, etc., etc., ad infinitum. I'm probably going to end up throwing the case out and putting the Falcon guts in a mini-tower, and a lot of others will too... I think a lot of people wish they could delete the keyboard also. Atari: How much would a Falcon030 motherboard ONLY cost me??? I bet I could save a bundle if I didn't have to buy your case, keyboard, RAM, HD, etc... This idea has possibilities... _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 129 Wed Apr 21, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:40 EDT Dr. Bob, The Falcon's keyboard is on the inside of the case. Spills just can't harm it. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 130 Wed Apr 21, 1993 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 18:58 EDT Thunderbird, You know... that's a marvelous idea. Really! If you need to replace the floppy drive in your ST or STe or Mega you end up either hunting around for a decently priced "ATARI" floppy drive or you whittle away the hole for the slanted eject button and buy a a standard 720k drive off the shelf. So... since so many of us have experience in whittling, it wouldn't be much effort at all to whittle a few extra holes in the back of a 520's case to fit the extra ports of a Falcon. The keyboard's the same, the case is the same... some cases may not have the holes for the 'new-style' joysticks so a little more whittling and we could save a bundle. I'm sure there'd be some enterprising individuals who'd offer such a service in many locations. And I just happen to have this 520 case sitting here doing nothing... sure would be nice... Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 131 Thu Apr 22, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 20:26 EDT Well, if you are going to do some whittling, you might as well try sticking it in a MSTE/TT case and go from there. I wonder if it would fit? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 132 Thu Apr 22, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 22:51 EDT One nice thing about the falcon is that the whole in the case for the drive is the size of the entire drive. one big rectangle. Makes replacing it much easier... ~Chris ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 133 Fri Apr 23, 1993 S.NOAH [Stu] at 02:07 EDT No case, no keyboard, no hard drive... if the motherboard were designed to fit the baby AT (ie. XT) or AT form-factor we could just put it into the case of our choice ! But then someone would probably complain about that too... Oh well, just can't please all of the people all of the time ! Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 136 Fri Apr 23, 1993 P.LATONA [Stormwalker] at 23:21 EDT Chris: What was your opinion of the machine now? Does it do what you want it to do? How did you like it? TELL us... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 139 Sat Apr 24, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 08:26 EDT Any messages concerning landings have been moved to the below topic. Keep posting!! Brian ... Written on Saturday 24 April 1993 at 09:24 a.m. AST >14 ? ************ >Topic 18 Tue Apr 20, 1993 >JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 18:09 EDT >Sub: The Falcon has landed. > >I had a sighting of a Falcon today at The Computer Network in Glendale CA, 818- >500-3900. Please post your sightings here. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 140 Sat Apr 24, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 22:45 EDT Well, Wayne, there is supposed to be that thing out soon that lets the falcon do 800 x 600 x 256... As to my reactions to it, I've seen them around a bit, such as at the SAC show, and as everyone knows, the sound is great. The Musicom program is a must-buy for anyone who enjoys playing wuth sound. Real-time effects, such as pitch modification (make yourself sound like a chipmunk or Darth Vader as you speak!) or a Karaoke effect, or reverb, the list goes on! As for the graphics, I saw some great demos of some games, and the Llamazap looks like a winner! Sprites about half the screen size jumping around on top if a two or three level scrolling background, explosions, missiles, WOW! Lots of stuff quickly moving around. It was like playing an arcade came or on a dedicated Video Game system, only better! As to whether it does what I want, yes and no. I want a two piece case like my Mega STE, and I certainly won't give it up for a machine without a VME slot to take my Crazy Dots board. but it does a lot more than my Mega and faster, too, so I'm seriously looking at my finances to see if I can buy one to add to my current set-up. I do like the Falcon, and certianly would not mind having one on my desktop. ~Chris ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 141 Sat Apr 24, 1993 HAINES [Chuck] at 22:53 EDT Yeah, three at Micro Computer Depot on Friday morning. Overall hands-on impression after about 7 hours at the keyboard, real nice. We were using a 15 inch multi-sync flat screen from KFC, and the 256 color desktop was impressing the mac guy at the store with the speed, running only at 16MHz. We used Truepaint to look at some big GIFs, very good color rendition. Did not have any trucolor pictures to try though, but the 256 Gifs looked better than I am used to on my PCs. MultiTOS worked OK as far as we could tell by using it without reading the instrucitons , pretty obvious just using the menu bars. It is a memory hog though. With SpeedoGDOS, MultiTOS, and Calamus SL on the 4meg machine, with all modules loaded, we only had about 450K left for Calamus to work with. Of course we didn't need GDOS for Calamus, but we did not have a working boot manager. Cutting MultTOS and Speedo out, resulted in much better numbersnumbers. MultiTOS does cut response time for the system, down to about what speed you seen screen redraws being done on a generic PC with a low end SVGA card. Without, the 256 color desktop is a little slower than a Warp 9 accelerated mega STE, in my opinion. Cutting colors down does make screen updates faster, for when you do not need high colors. Switching resolutions/colors is easy, and much faster than the res changes you are used to. The Audio Fun Machine is just that. We raided a Mac, plugged in mono mic, and just went away with it. Also Winrec, and Fortune, in the libraries, work really well for recording to disk. D2D and the System Sound Manager were missing in the group that came in. Also, the MultiTOS manual is obvious not the final release, and is sort of slim. Ah, but Atari Works. Very, very nice. All the above are already installed on the machine. The wordprocesor is very reminiscent of mac ones, and kept up well. The Thesaurus and spelling checker wil amaze you, thats all I can say. Very well done, and showing this to prospective customers will do a lot to upgrade the Atari image as a professional machine, which has taken a little beating. Only bad news, using on a SC-1224 monitor. The one we had was old, and it did not look like what I define as flicker, but more like jumping up and down of the icons, in a very small area. This was an old monitor, and someone else was trying it, so i may be wrong on it, as he was trying the video modes with it. The VGA multisync I was using would display every mode, perfectly clear. Put your ear down to the case to hear the drive and fan, not noticeable otherwise, much quieter than my Mega STE or PCs. Overall impression of the entire group that came in. Two guys drove up about 370 miles to get a couple hours look. They want one bad! or two! All the ones the dealer has ordered are prepaid for, and he was taking names for additional ones, to be delivered as they come in. He does'nt want to post numbers, but he is very happy with the numbers so far, on a sight unseen machine. My personal impression. when do I get Mine? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 143 Sun Apr 25, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 10:38 EDT Yep, I really liked the Falcon. I drove 120 miles to see one as this is one of my local dealers. I was really impressed BUT, not impressed enough to get rid of my 2 piece MSTE. When or IF Atari comes out wiht the 2 piece Falcon, then you will see me in line waiting for it. Even if they keep the same stats as the current Falcon. I have become spoiled to my seperate keyboard and the MSTE/TT keyboard is MUCH better than the Falcon's 1040 keyboard feel. The old Mega keyboards were much nicer. Along with the seperate case, I hope they make the keyboard feel better than the current one. Maybe even use the MSTE/TT keyboard. The current Falcon is a good replacement for the regular STE's. It blows them out of the water and it is very good competition for the PCs and low end Macs. The thing to remember is that this is the ENTRY level machine designed to replace the STE. Now to only get a replacement for the Mega STE and TT. I believe Atari has a winner on their hands. If they will only get the word out and market it. They are going to have a few sales without a some push from them BUT, they will do better if they advertise. The only problem is that they CANNOT keep up with the demand now. If they advertise, they definately will NOT be able to keep up unless they ramp up production with the current facility or they hire an additional firm to help in production. I believe they are affraid of over producing at the moment and are holding back on big production runs. What if only the current Atari owners and a few other platforms are buying and then sales drop? They will be left holding a bunch of unsold machines. If the demand is there, I see them only then ramping up further. This is just what I can see as what may be the factor in not producing a lot at first. Who knows what the actual deal is. Maybe the companies want the money up front at first and Jack will only spend so much money. Who knows. Noone at Atari will say what there plans are. 10,000 machines a month with the current backorder will take over 3 years to fill. If they rampup to 50,000 machines a month for the first 8 months and then back off if sales don't hold up, then they will get them out quicker to those waiting and have put there money down already. I don't know if the current facility has the capability to meet the current demand. How long will people wait before buying something else? Even developers are still waiting for their machines and the customers are getting them before the developers. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 144 Sun Apr 25, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 14:12 EDT Re Falcon and MEGA case: I wonder if one could pull the mother board from a MEGA, and replace it with the mother board from a Falcon? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 145 Sun Apr 25, 1993 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 19:59 EDT Billy B., NOPE. the Mega and the Falcon are two completely different shaped motherboards. The Mega motherboard is almost square while the Falcon/1040 style motherboard is very wide, but not very deep. Now if Atari had been smart and designed the Falcon motherboard along the lines of the Mega motherboard we'd all have it much easier since a Mega style motherboard fits into most tower cases quite nicely. As a matter of fact that's just where my Mega motherboard is sitting along with the floppies, and hd's. All in a common case with a remote keyboard, WOW what a concept! Wayne ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 146 Sun Apr 25, 1993 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 20:50 EDT Wayne, If you want a detached keyboard there is still the choice of the DEKA. Mr. DEKA, Norm Weinress, is a member of my computer club. At our meeting last Tuesday we hooked the DEKA up to the FALCON and it worked just fine. JKT ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 147 Mon Apr 26, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 05:28 EDT John, My understanding is that the DEKA doesn't work with ALL software. I want a factory built seperate keyboard. Now a replacement (not additional substitute) keyboard for the Atari keyboards would be great. Just like they had replacement keyboards for the Atari 400. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 148 Sat May 01, 1993 G.ROUSH [Gary Roush] at 13:06 EDT Hi guys! I have a question. Can anyone tell me if the Quantum 240 MB Hard Drive would be able to be used with the Falcon 30? I have a chance to buy one at a very low price of $475.00, which someone bought but didn't use for his IBM. It is SCSI interfaced. I foresee myself buying the Falcon this coming Fall, so I don't want to get this hard drive and find out I can't use it with the Falcon 30. If I can use it with the Falcon, great. I would be using it on my 1 mega system. I have now the Megafile 30 HD (cough cough) and would replace it with the Quantum 240 HD. Any input on this would be helpful. Thanks. Gary Roush ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 149 Sat May 01, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 13:14 EDT Gary, the going retail price on that drive is $375 for the bare drive, maybe $475 would be OK if it's in a Mac hard drive case with power supply, etc. Yes, as an external drive, using a SCSI II cable ($35) you can use it with the Falcon....darn nice drive actually! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 150 Sat May 01, 1993 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] (Forwarded) You can use externally just fine. The INTERNAL Falcon030 harddrive connector is IDE- 2.5" IDE. -Tom McComb {1:23 pm} Saturday, May 1, 1993 ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 151 Sat May 01, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] (Forwarded) Gary, The Quantum 240 can be used on the Falcon via the external SCSI connector. You will need an external power supply and 50 pin DIP to SCSI cable (standard Macintosh issue). Before you rush out to buy it at the price you mentioned, check around (Computer Shopper) - the price has been dropping recently. -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 152 Sat May 01, 1993 D.FLORY [ALERTsys*Cop] (Forwarded) You shouldn't have any problem on the Falcon as it has a regular SCSI port, you may have a problem with your current Atari as you need a host adapter of some sort to translate Atari ACSI to SCSI. Check with the ICD guys for details. (-: Happy Bytes :-) Dave Flory, ALERTsys*Cop 17:08 PST - 05/01/93 ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 153 Sat May 01, 1993 E.WINDELL [GENE] (Forwarded) Tom, Those 2.5" IDE drives were designed for the laptop/notebook computers, and you can buy them out of Computer Shopper at reasonable prices up 140 around 140mb. Would it be safe to buy a Falcon without the hard drive, and pick up a larger one somewhere other than Atari? Is the Falcon IDE controller on the motherboard, or is it imbedded in the drive? What difficulties could one expect in a scheme like this? Also, I already have a 49mb Seagate SCSI with ICD adapter and software. Can this be used with a Falcon that has the internal IDE drive? Can the IDE and SCSI controllers talk to each other? Seems like assigning disk partitions could be real tricky? Gene ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 154 Sun May 02, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 00:09 EDT Is it possible to take out the 65 meg drive that comes with the Falcon and stick it in a STacy? Is it the right size? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 155 Sun May 02, 1993 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 02:57 EDT Gene- From what I know, yes, all the needed hardware is on the mother board. You should be able to pop in any size 2.5" IDE drive into the Falcon030 even if it didn't come with a hard drive installed (but that may have changed so get verification from the Dealer first!). And, yes, the scsi and IDE drives will 'talk' to each other just fine. It's all handled by the software. -Tom McComb {2:32 am} Sunday, May 2, 1993 David- Nope. The STACY uses a SCSI drive. The internal Falcon030 drive is IDE. They are not interchangeable. -Tom McComb {2:33 am} Sunday, May 2, 1993 ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 156 Sun May 02, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] (Forwarded) Gary, There will be no problems using it on the Falcon. You will however need an SCSI-II to SCSI cable that you can purchase as the Falcon uses SCSI-II. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 157 Sun May 02, 1993 E.WINDELL [GENE] at 11:43 EDT Wayne, <<..something wonderful is about to happen ..>> Sorry Dave, I can't do that. I predict the Earth's moon will explode on the 27th of May, 1995 at 11:07 AM. We will probably get quite a bang out of it. Get a life. It is Sunday; go to church. Pity and give your blessings to poor guys like me, suffering in this Hawaiian Hell-hole. George ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 158 Sun May 02, 1993 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 19:15 EDT Install your own 2.5" IDE drive in a falcon? I imagine it's very doable, but from the photos I've seen of the insides of the thing it's not something I'd want to try without a LOT of help. The insides of the Falcon are PACKED folks, and getting in there will not be as simple as upgrading a Mega or TT. Yes, the Falcon IS designed for ease of upgrades for RAM and co-processors.... but once again it's going to be tight doing anything in that case. I STRONGLY suggest you take your new bird in to a dealer for any upgrades or mods.... besides, just opening up your Falcon is going to void that handy waranty in a heart beat.... It may cost a buck or two but it's worth it in security and life expectancy (of your Falcon anyway). Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 159 Mon May 03, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 01:18 EDT FAIRWEATHER - The 64MB drive in the F030 is a 2.5" IDE and the Stacy uses a 3.5" SCSI (at least I think it's SCSI!), so in a word, no! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 160 Mon May 03, 1993 J.MUHA at 19:29 EDT Glad to hear that the Falcon has landed in various places. Now, will Atari kindly inform us as to: 1)What major companies are supporting the new platform. (EA for example?) 2)Will they A D V E R T I S E ????\ Thanks! Dr. Joseph Muha PD The Digital Man ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 161 Mon May 03, 1993 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 20:55 EDT The term "Macintosh type" cable may be misleading. I went to two local Mac stores trying to locate this "SCSI-II" cable. On the phone, one of the stores even told me "...we have every SCSI cable imaginable...". I'm sure it was meant figuratively but I assumed that they knew what they were talking about. The common "Mac SCSI cable" may work on the TT's SCSI port (ie DB25) but the Falcon030's SCSI-II port is a 50-pin connector; the same kind used on some SUN workstations. They call it a DB50... and no, two DB25s won't make it. Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 162 Mon May 03, 1993 S.WINICK at 22:42 EDT Dr. Bob, You may have to search a little to find the SCSI-II cables as they are not yet as common as the regular MAC/TT type SCSI cables, but they are available. We had to search around ourselves before we could find a good source of supply. We do have them in stock though, and I'm sure you'll find most Atari dealers will as well as soon as the Falcon's begin shipping and there is a real need to be filled. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 163 Tue May 04, 1993 S.FARWIG [STAN] at 22:34 EDT We had looked forward to the FALCON as a means of editing tapes of old recordings (acoustical as well as early electric) much in the manner of CD reissues of this kind of material. While I knew that the FALCON had a microphone input, ignorance led me to believe that a modification to allow input from a tape machine would be no big deal. My dealer tells me it's a bigger deal than we thought and he knows of no way at present to accomplish this, although something might be developed in the future. This was quite a surprise... while not underestimating the importance of live recording in the MIDI market, I would have thought handling prerecorded material was an important need also. Can someone give me an idea of what is involved in feeding a recorded signal into the FALCON? Is this unfeasible at the present time and, if it is, is likely to remain so? Thanks in advance for any information. Stan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 164 Wed May 05, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:28 EDT I havent tried feeding prerecorded material in yet.. it all depends.. a mic input is set for a very low signal, a tape in may be too high and will clip and destort the preamps... I will check it out.. Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 165 Wed May 05, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 00:47 EDT Use an attenuating plug on the falcons input to reduce the line level signal to mic level -- *Very* easy to do and a REAL no-brainer. --Kevin (hurry with the darn Falcons...) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 166 Wed May 05, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 01:26 EDT Stan, All you need to use a line level device on the Falcons MIC jack are 2 200K ohm resistors placed in series with the input. I am sure some electronics places, maybe even Radio Shack, sell some sort of Attenuating cable designed just for the purpose. It is no big deal. -----------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 167 Wed May 05, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 02:06 EDT Stan, Getting line level to mike level is very easily done and you should tell your dealer to get the proper info before he gets every one worried. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 168 Wed May 05, 1993 S.SCHULZ2 [STEFFAN] at 02:12 EDT Stan, I don't see it being a problem. Although I may be wrong, but most good mixers can handle the line/mic configuration that you re concerned with. You might propose the question in the MIDI RT. There are a number of Falcon/Midi/sound gurus in that neighborhood. I hope this mic input isn't a problem, because I would use the capability for the same reason you are looking at. Let me know what you hear. Steffan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 169 Wed May 05, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 02:54 EDT AEO.7 - Despite how packed the innards of the Falcon030 are, it would show a serious lack of intelligence on Atari's behalf if switching out the IDE drive or removing/installing PDS or RAM boards are AT ALL difficult. Besides, Atari SUPPOSEDLY made the casing EASIER to remove (e.g. no more bended metal tabs on the RF shielding -- just screws!). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 170 Wed May 05, 1993 R.BUSH [Richard Bush] at 06:12 EDT Gregg, I've seen a 2.5" drive installed in a Falcon. It took less than five minutes (for someone who had done it before admittedly). It's really not that hard. A memory upgrade is just as easy. Doing it yourself will void your warranty, of course. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 171 Wed May 05, 1993 J.NESS [Jim] at 10:16 EDT Stan - There are already a couple of products announced for direct recording, bypassing the mic input. They have some external hardware, which plugs into the DSP port. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 172 Wed May 05, 1993 AEO.7 [Gregg] at 20:36 EDT I stand corrected, it doesn't happen too often but it does happen . Seriously, I've only recently been able to do any 'hands on' with the Falcon and have yet to tear one open. My previous comments were based on the photographs and such of the Falcon that'd I'd seen earlier and compared against the open Mega, MegaSTe, TT, and 1040/520 systems that I've had the (often unhappy) chance to work with in the past. Yes, Atari DID design the Falcon for minimal effort to work on when compared to the 1040ST/STe... but we are still talking about a LOT of very powerf8ul hardware packed into a fairly small space. It was to that effect that I made the comment about swapping/adding a new drive and doing ANYTHING not expected by Atari (such as plugging in a RAM expansion board or co-processor or math chip) would not be a cake-walk for the uninitiated. It is NOT impossible to do work inside the Falcon, but it will not be easy and, unless you're an authorized dealer, you risk your waranty. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 173 Wed May 05, 1993 D.HOHENSTEIN [PRIMETIME] at 21:22 EDT Stan, I can't see this as a problem, at all. Firstly, it should be fairly easy to do audio input through the mic port. It might not equalize very well, but that's what the pooter's for, right? :) Secondly, there is already available a 16-track recorder that connects (I believe) to the Faclon's DSP port. It's already happening. And don't be too hard on your dealer. I doubt even Bill Rebok (sp) knows exactly what is currently available for the Falcon at any given time. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 174 Wed May 05, 1993 W.PARKS3 [Dr. Bob] at 23:56 EDT Sheldon, You're 100% correct. I _did_ have to do a lot of searching. That's how I know that a SUN cable works- I called 'Cables-to-Go' in Dayton, OH. They were a bit pricey but no one else had them at the time.... well... at least not until AFTER I bought mine (Murphy's Law, you know). I'm sure that once the Falcon is readily available that the SCSI-II cables will be as readily available. Bye: Dr. Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 175 Thu May 06, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 01:20 EDT I did manage to pick up a nice radio station with the mic in jacks.. actually it works great with either the atteniation(sp) or use an audio mixer if you have one... Ive been recording CDs and such into WinRec without a problem.. everything is real cool, except MultiTos which is WAY too slow at the moment and bombs most ST software, other than that it is a lot of fun having so much more screen space too work with!! Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 176 Fri May 07, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 01:16 EDT R.BUSH - Too bad Mac owners can upgrade their own machines without voiding their warranties and we can't! Atari was nice enough to have it on the Stacy, though! AEO.7 - Not when you can remove Atari's 'unauthorised case opening detection' sticker and replace it with ease! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 177 Fri May 07, 1993 R.THUROW [Rich] at 19:22 EDT The attenuating adaptor will certainly work, but I wonder if it wont' add some form of signal degeneration. I wonder if the Falcon's preamp takes it back up to line level and by bypassing one could have standard audio lines in/out. Rich ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 178 Sat May 08, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 22:53 EDT Rich : I've been using the audio in through a mixer so I haven't checked out an attenuator... It should'nt really be a big difference, its merely a couple of resistors... Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 179 Sun May 09, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 03:31 EDT Just today (well, yesterday technically) I was at my local dealer who had a CD player hooked up through his Falcon and we were recording some songs direct from the CD to HD without any noticeable difference. I'm not a Mariah Carey fan, so it was fun to run her through the harmonizer in Musicom and make her sing like a chipmunk. ~Chris ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 180 Mon May 10, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 00:57 EDT To me, that is one of the most impressive things in Falcon030. The Sound system is really something. I have seen the Falcon030 do things that $10K computers can't do with sound! But, you have to hear one to believe it. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 182 Mon May 10, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 23:55 EDT I have a question regarding HDX that is supplied with the Falcon. I have an external SCSI-II hooked up(it wasnt really THAT hard to find the cable).. I keep getting errors off of that drive (it is 1 213 meg partition for recording).. when I use HDX to markbad, it locks up half way through and I have too reboot.. is it the software or the HD? Curt p.s. I just got Musicom today, I definately recomend it to anyone who wants to play with some of the Falcon capabilities! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 183 Tue May 11, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 18:52 EDT Curt, Would you mind giving us a full run down in email of what happened with all of the pertinent information, drive make and model, version of HDX, error message or problem encountered, etc. Send the mail to Bill and J. Patton (ATARIDEV). If there is a problem with HDX, we want to be sure to have as much info as possible to resolve the problems. Thanks! best regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 184 Tue May 11, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 21:11 EDT Bob- I will if you still want me too, but it seems the problem is my HD (or cable) I have intermitent times when it goes offline, it locks the program if it goes offline in midcheck. I ran it again, and it found 0 errors. Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 185 Tue May 11, 1993 SLP at 21:20 EDT What's the list price on Musicom, and what country is it from? Thanks Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 186 Wed May 12, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:17 EDT I really hope that someone at Atari spends some time putting together some good manuals like I got with my 8-bit computers. They were well done, and extremely useful. The "manuals" I have gotten with the ST's are a joke. And please don't bother bundling ST Basic! I have had 4 copies, and I tried using the first one. It should have been an extension of the 8-bit basic, only stronger. Instead, it was completely different, and undocumented. Also buggy. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 187 Wed May 12, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 16:46 EDT SLP, MusiCOMM is from Holland, from Compo Software. You can email them here on GEnie via their US representative, Robert at the GEnie mail address of COMPO The product is available in the US now. List price is $69 I believe. Billy, The manuals are much better than before, and we haven't bundled ST Basic in a blue moon. I appreciate your suggestion on what it should have been, and agree that it is inappropriate for use with the Falcon. regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 188 Wed May 12, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 23:55 EDT Bob : thanks for the clue on Atari Works... left mouse+left shift in the proper location isn't something one will stumble over w/o a manual! Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 189 Thu May 13, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:19 EDT Billy, ST basic was revised shortly after it came out. The second version is quite good. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 190 Thu May 13, 1993 DABRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 08:44 EDT The second version of ST Basic was less buggy, Al, but the interface was still silly. It was with great relief that I switched to GFA in 1987. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 191 Thu May 13, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] (Forwarded) Dear Atari: I would like to make a suggestion. How about making a package available from dealers that contains all the Falcon's included software for about $99.00 or so. Make it available only with the purchase of a Falcon without hard drive. I had planned on buying a 4/65 model, but there have been DRASTIC changes in the availability of 2.5" drives in the last couple of months: May Computer Shopper, page 452 Storage devices, Inc. 1-800-835-3023 Maxtor 25128a 128 Meg $289.00 25252a 225 Meg $369.00 It's easy to see why I am hesitant to pay Atari $400 for a 65 meg drive. Just a thought. -----------------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 192 Fri May 14, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:54 EDT I know, Dot. So I tried learning C. Oh well... Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 193 Fri May 14, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:27 EDT Bob, I may have gotten one that was sitting on a shelf, but when I bought my STe, I got ST Basuc (I accidentally misspelled that, but I think it fits!). That was only 1 year ago. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 194 Sat May 15, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 00:38 EDT To anyone interested, I just started topic 4 over in cat 3: Programming the Falcon... If you want 800x600 True color then check it out! We need to find a DSP guru..... ---------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 195 Sat May 15, 1993 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 01:25 EDT It's really too bad that ST Basic was such junk. The original Atari BASIC for the 8-bits was great. Why didn't Atari get Bill Wilkinson to write ST BASIC? Say, whatever happened to Bill, anyway? Didn't OSS get bought out or something? Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 196 Sat May 15, 1993 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 11:27 EDT ........And the windows in St Basic went CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK..... When I bought my first ST, I sat down and read through the ST Basic manual before booting the program and was impressed with all the new commands over my old 8 bit basic which I programmed quite a bit. The next day I was all eager to get started with this great new Basic. About 10 minutes later after watching the windows clunk, clunk, clunk I put St Basic away forever. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 197 Sat May 15, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 11:45 EDT Soul, Bill *did* write the latest official DOS for the 8-bit, but it was still no match for Sparta. I don't think Bill would have wanted to write ST Basic; he was an 8-bit genius but had no real interest in the ST. OSS was bought (or its assets were bought) by ICD a long while back. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 198 Sun May 16, 1993 STEVE-J [Steve @ NLS] at 05:18 EDT S.DANUSER - Yes, ST BASIC was definitely junk! But what do you expect from the same guys who did AmigaDOS? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 199 Sun May 16, 1993 AFINKEL [andy] at 17:53 EDT Steve: Actually, I'd expect Helios :-) andy ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 200 Sun May 16, 1993 M.DEVER1 [mike.d] at 18:57 EDT Al, Don't have the full thread of your message, but if you really want to learn C get this book: Programming in Ansi C by Stephen G. Kochan. I used it with Lazer C and all programs ( but one ) ran from Lazer, then I switched to Lattice C. Works just as well. The thing with c is you've got to do lots of example programs to get the hang of it. Just do all the example programs in the book and you'll become a very good C programmer. Then get a good book on VDI/AES: Atari st: Vdi: compute's technical reference guide, if you can Find it. Mike Dever ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 201 Sun May 16, 1993 TOWNS [John] at 19:13 EDT Please, Steve.. don't start with the slamming of other Operating Systems. It's tiresome and boring and doesn't accomplish anything. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 202 Mon May 17, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:58 EDT I've been reading and appreciating The C Trilogy, from (I think) Tab Books. You can tell I'm awake by the fact that I forgot the author's name, but I'll look it up the next time I'm in my trunk, which is where I keep a lot of my ready-to-go books... Al ------------