========================================================================= (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information. ========================================================================== ************ Topic 41 Tue Dec 22, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 20:08 EST Sub: FALCON 030 - Help and Questions Ask here if you need help or have a technical question to ask about the FALCON 030 computer. This topic is designed to inform users about the FALCON and discuss it CURRENT details and characteristics. 207 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 1 Sat Mar 06, 1993 R.THUROW [Rich] at 01:38 EST Ah, coming out of lurk mode...as Falcons are at last imminent! Is there an adaptor to change a standard DMA cable to the one we need for the falcon? Is it possible to pull the plug on the fan for Falcons without internal hard drives, or is this not recommended? thanks, rich ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 2 Sat Mar 06, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 01:44 EST I got a call back from Digital Optical Analog today (the makers of blackmail) and they are expecting the Falcon black O j ) , p3 --- line noise) to be under $200!!! and availible in a couple months (it hasnt passed FCC yet) Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 3 Sat Mar 06, 1993 J.KRACHT [James Kracht] (Forwarded) Say, does anyone know what kind of chips, exactly, one would need to put a Falcon to 14megs? You know, number of pins, speed, and all those other details that I have absolutely NO CLUE about? Does anyone know if the Zubair Updrage board uses the same type of chips? Can one get the official Atari board unpopulated? Prices? Phone numbers? -=James ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 4 Sat Mar 06, 1993 N.FRAGA at 14:58 EST Did someone else here have the same birthday as me, on the 24th? I think some had asked a question in last night RTC, about if the Falcon can do / act like a Roland SC-55. I would like to know if it's possible to use the Falcon as a sampler, and a sequencer at the same time (MultiTOS!) controlling several synthesizers as well! If this is what the D2D products already do. Norm. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 5 Sat Mar 06, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 21:57 EST Rich, Good to see your question! The Atari Falcon030 does not have a DMA port and I am not aware of an adaptor just yet. There is a standard SCSI II port making almost any SCSI drive usable. Dealers already stock this cable. The fan is mounted to the circuit board. I guess if someone wanted to void the warranty, they could cut one of the wires to the fan - not recommended pn this end. James, The Atari Falcon030 uses a custom surface mount RAM board much like you would find in the MSDOS laptops (Toshiba, Zeos, etc.). The board is very easy to install. Since the chips are surface mount, there is no way to install RAM chips on the Atari memory upgrades. Something 3rd party may become available. Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 6 Mon Mar 08, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 01:27 EST A few Internet nuggets for the Faithful. And Others. ===================================================== Date: 3 Mar 93 07:13:24 GMT From: pipex!sunic!ugle.unit.no!ugle.unit.no!tose@uunet.uu.net (Torbjoern Ose) Subject: 32Mhz Falcon! To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Since I'm in a good mood tonight I thought I'd share this little bit of information with the rest of you guys. While reading the rather more intersting Maus news from germany (compared to the recent stuff on here that is) I came across this: (translated to english (well.. my kind of english) for the benefit of those who can't read the official Atari language): Olaf_Mootz says something like: " I have just been on the phone to GE Soft blah blah blah they are working on a card for the Falcon!! Without second level cache but with additional FASTram (upto 32MB) and using 32Mhz! To be displayed at CeBit" This should cheer up those (including yours truly) who weren't too happy about the speed of the Falcon. Cheers, Torbjoern -- Torbjorn Ose - tose@unix03.dhmolde.no - "Things Take Time - Piet Hein" ======================================================= Date: 3 Mar 93 11:12:58 GMT From: math.fu-berlin.de!ira.uka.de!fauern!rrze.uni-erlangen.de!not-for- mail@uunet.uu. net (Harald Schoenfeld) Subject: ANNOUNCE: Fortune V1.0 for Falcon 030 To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu Fortune V1.0 The final version 1.0 of the Fortune program is now available at archive.umich.edu in the atari/falcon directory. Fortune is a program that tells you a fortune whenever you boot your Falcon. Like on big Unix machines statements of well know persons will be shown on the screen. But you will also actually hear them! You will hear Captain James T. Kirk, the Terminator, Monty Python and a lot of other stars in the unique sound quality of the falcon. You can produce your own fortunes using the harddisk recording program WinRec to record the sample and then editing the sample with Fortune. Another very interesting feature of Fortune is its capability to import, export and convert many different sound formats. You can use: - DVSM (used by WinRec) - AVR (used by many ST/TT/Falcon programs) - AU,SND (used on SUN, NeXT) - WAV (used on PC's) - Raw (for many other cases) Fortune comes together with 40 sound cites and is available in a German and English version. -- Harald Schoenfeld | I'm sorry Dave, (mppi76@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.dbp.de) | I'm afraid I can't do that. ======================================================= Date: 3 Mar 93 11:24:49 GMT From: noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio- state.edu!howland.resto n.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!fauern!rrze.uni- erlangen.de!n ot-for-mail@arizona.edu (Harald Schoenfeld) Subject: WinRec 1.0 with DSP- effect for the Falcon posted To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu WinRec V1.0 The version 1.0 of the WinRec harddisk recording program for the Falcon030 is now available at archive.umich.edu in the atari/falcon directory. WinRec is not only the first PD harddisk recording program for the Falcon, it is also the first program to use the DSP for online sound effects during recording or playing. 2 DSP-LOD files are included in the archive. WinRec is also good for the use with Fortune V1.0, which is available at the same place. -- Harald Schoenfeld | I'm sorry Dave, (mppi76@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.dbp.de) | I'm afraid I can't do that. =========================================================== ------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 7 Mon Mar 08, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 03:23 EST EXPLORER.1 - The Falcon030 DOES have a DMA port -- just not an ACSI/DMA one, but instead a SCSI-II/DMA one. Sorry, I just get cramps in my back everytime someone calls the ACSI port the "DMA port." ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 8 Mon Mar 08, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 19:13 EST Didn't this DMA/ASCI/SCSI II thing already happen on FidoNET? We know that the SCSI II *is* DMA, but it *isn't* the DMA port. Nobody calls the ASCI port the DMA port, and in that the SCSI II port isn't _The_ DMA port, while it may have DMA _access_. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Software (This message needs something like a or , apply wherever you would like. The message isn't meant to be blasting some one ) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 9 Mon Mar 08, 1993 MIKE-FULTON [Mike Fulton] at 23:08 EST Tintin, At COMDEX a few months ago we had Digital Optical Analog in our booth showing their "BlackMail" voice mail system for Falcon030. Mike @ Atari ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 10 Mon Mar 08, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 23:10 EST Steve, thanks for clarifying things - you are correct. See a doctor about those cramps in the back ;-) Thanks for the backup Sean - much appreciated. I don't mind Steve keeping me honest either :-) Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 11 Tue Mar 09, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 01:58 EST Every sense I have had the ST (over 7 years), it has been refered to as the DMA port so, old habits are hard to get away from. I guess I will always refer to it as the DMA port. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 12 Tue Mar 09, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 02:58 EST Norm: Steinberg just announced they would release their sampling & sequencing package 'Cubase Audio' (currently available for the Mac) for the Falcon030 by May or June. It features up to 8-track direct to disk recording in addition to their sequencer stuff. There are several other companies working on synthesizer emulators that utilize the Falcon's DSP chip. -Johannes ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 13 Tue Mar 09, 1993 S.SCHULZ2 [STEFFAN] at 04:40 EST Well if Steinberg and other companies are releasing software, then there really must be a Falcon. I'll be damned! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 14 Tue Mar 09, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:46 EST Someone asked during the last Dateline Atari whether anyone was working on software to let the Falcon act as a Roland SoundCanvas-like sampled sound module. I'm not sure what the answer to that question is but I do know that Barefoot Software is at least aware of the expressed desires of many midi users for something along those lines. Maybe someone from Barefoot will confirm or deny that they have a "Falcon Canvas" in progress. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 15 Tue Mar 09, 1993 M.REARDON [Mark Reardon] at 20:19 EST Does anybody know if the Migraph products (scanner, Touch-UP, and OCR) work with the FALCON. I'm about to sell my 1040 STE in hopes of getting a FALCON but am waiting to see if these programs, along with any news of a FALCON SPECTRE/GCR product, work ? Any info would be appreciated !:) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 16 Tue Mar 09, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 21:29 EST Mike @ Atari, Thanks; I read about BlackMail. It's going to cost around $200, right? It's cheap for all its features. I'll look at it when it comes out. What I had in mind was simply a recording machine emulator, with basic features and under $100. I'm sure a company will develop one. Or I may write my own :) Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 17 Tue Mar 09, 1993 D.PHILLIPS24 [Darcy] at 21:49 EST Further on the point about the fan in the falcon... For those of us who record in the same room as the computer this is a MAJOR problem. Ignoring the warranty issue for now, would it be a dangerous strain on the electronics to install a mod that allowed one to switch the fan off for periods of time? This would of course have to be used with caution. It is an issue for me now in deciding whether to buy a 4/65(and augment HD space later), or a 4 meg no HD(and have to wait longer? AARGH!), for I assume that with an IDE drive it would not be possible to ever turn the fan off. An external drive, however, can be stowed in a closet or whatever... Or maybe the issue of IDE versus SCSI is not an issue noise wise, if the IDE drives themselves also make a lot of noise. Having never seen (heard) one in operation, I don't know. Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks- Darcy ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 18 Wed Mar 10, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 00:25 EST Interesting point Darcy about fan noise in Falcon recordings. And what about hard drive whirr? Might be another good reason to wait for a detachable keyboard Falcon with a REAL long cable! I don't think a remote control mouse and long mike cables would work because the Practical Solutions remote mouse I have sucks. It's very unpredictable and the range is very limited. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 19 Wed Mar 10, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 01:04 EST My Syquest fan (ToadFile) makes much more noise than the Falcon. It could be a problem with a multi-directional and sensitive microphone, haven't tried it yet. On the other hand, it might not. I don't know how you can get away from fan noise doing digital recordings though. Unless of course you record from a separate room. Digitized files take a lot of space and I can't imagine dealing with them without a hard disk whirring in the office. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 20 Wed Mar 10, 1993 CBARRON at 01:36 EST Mark I don't have a falcon, so I am not 100% certain about running on a falcon, but Migraph's hand scanner,TouchUp, Ocr,Scan and Save all work on a TT. I think that Merge It, does also, but I do not recall using it since I got the TT. (Above done in TT med.) This would indicate that they should have no problems running on a Falcon, as the falcon is more ST compatible than the TT. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 22 Wed Mar 10, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:48 EST Sean: "Didn't this ....happen on FIDONET?" ..Who knows, maybe it did, but I don't access any other services. And if those great long lines of incomprehensible gobblede gook at the beginning and end of messages transplanted here from nets are addresses, I wouldn't bother. Please don't limit discussions here because it has been done on another service. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 23 Wed Mar 10, 1993 B.REHBOCK [BILL@ATARI] at 12:22 EST Mark Reardon: Migraph does have a Falcon030. The Hand Scanner and TouchUp do work on my Flacon right now. -Bill@Atari ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 24 Wed Mar 10, 1993 J.NESS [Jim] at 12:26 EST The back of my ST itself SAYS "DMA Port". Call it what you will. Back then, even Atari called it DMA. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 25 Wed Mar 10, 1993 M.REARDON [Mark Reardon] at 19:32 EST Thanks all for the info on the Migraph stuff ! Now if only Dave Small would come out with the SPECTRE GCR conversion :) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 26 Wed Mar 10, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 20:16 EST Billy: My reference to FidoNET was in that the thread on Fido lasted FOREVER for no good reason. People kept fighting back and forth, when the issue was solved 20 replies back! It was meerly an, "Oh no! Not again!", not a "Since we talked about it on FidoNet we shouldn't here" On the microphone and fan issue: Couldn't one use a simple filter to filter out the whir of the fan, when absolute quality wasn't an issue? Worst come to worse you could build a sound proof booth in your computer room...that is a *tiny* bit extreem however. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 27 Wed Mar 10, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 23:46 EST Darcy, Filtering out a constant background sound like fan noise is a perfect task for the DSP in the Atari Falcon030 ;-) The fan really does not make much noise, less than the hard drive. To get a better idea of the noise we are talking about, listen to one of the newr MSDOS notebook computers. The Falcon uses much of the same technologies as the latest laptops, including the 2.5" IDE drive. Also keep in mind these same laptops work well even without a fan and with less convection ventilation than the Falcon. Ignoring the warranty issue, putting a switch in series with the fan should be possible for those times fan noise may be unacceptable. Again, not recommended but possible. Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 28 Thu Mar 11, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:02 EST Filtering (even with DSP) isnt a great fix, as you would obviously loose more than just the fan noise, however, recording with a directional mic, and in the other room is. Its mixing down that makes the HD a problem. Ive used Sound Tools with a 88meg Removable, they are quite loud. There is a desk made by Omnirax called the Prostation that has a sliding drawer for the HD this would further isolate it. Curt p.s. It was confirmed by our head buyer from James Grunke that we will have demo Falcons by the end of this month. 4/65 models. /s oop ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 29 Thu Mar 11, 1993 FAIR-DINKUM [Hutch] at 00:10 EST Darcy -- It's obviously not a good idea to disable the fan in your Falcon, but then, we do a lot of things the purist would frown on. You do have a couple of choices: 1) Remove the top cover and internal shielding (do the latest Falcon models have separate shielding?) to allow for heat dissipation and then disconnect the fan for short periods only. 2) Measure the internal temperature of your system with the fan in operation and then measure it again with the fan disabled. If the difference is negligible, you might feel safer about temporarily disabling the fan. 3) Rig your system with an inexpensive thermistor relay which will kick your fan on and off based on a preset temperature. Now getting rid of hard drive whir is another matter altogether! -Hutch- @ Fair Dinkum Tech ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 30 Thu Mar 11, 1993 J.RENNER1 [Jim] at 00:22 EST Gee, with falcon, multi-tos, and the dsp someone could create an anti-sound device for the studio/fan noise problem. For those not familiar with anti- sound it the the ability to cancel out sound using an opposite wave form. It would be a great application for the dsp. Jim. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 31 Thu Mar 11, 1993 R.THUROW [Rich] at 00:26 EST The fan issue: One of the nice things about the toad file is that you can turn it off easily during composing or mastering and back on when its time to save. I know this isn't recommended by all but it works for me. The Syquest is an extremely noisy drive--too noisy to hear fine nuances when making mastering decisions. (its second only to the jet-roar of the Megafile 30/60) A Falcon without an internal drive may be much quieter, and if the fan could be cut, it would be possible to have a *silent* (ahh) midi studio and increase the signal to noise ratio of the room. Thats always been an advantage of the 1040 series over the mega series. The question is can we safely do it with the Falcon? I cut the fan wires on my stock Mega 2 over a year ago and have not had heat problems, though my floppys are hot to the touch after a long session. Of course, doing HD recording/playback we will have to put up with drive noise and fans, crank the volume a bit and risk ear fatigue sooner in the process. Its ironic how as recording gets cleaner the room gets noisier. Solutions, Midiphiles? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 32 Thu Mar 11, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 00:42 EST You could also buy a baffle, one of these sound-deadening boxes that one places over a boisterous printer. That would likely take care of the hard drive noise and the fan, as weak as those sounds are. We did some voice digitizing tonight (turned out we had the needed adaptor handy!) and didn't notice any extraneous noise at all, but we are not purists. ;-) On our ST, we've had to hook up the mic to the stereo in the other room and then bring a lead from there to the ST for ST Replay, so our recording and the sound source have been in different rooms entirely. Neat to think that now we can do it all _without_ the stereo or even a Replay cartridge involved. Our user group guys carted the Falcon and a mic off to the meeting tonight all in one compact case. Speaking of cases, I gotta say: with all the complaining about the one- piece design, I'm afraid people are focussed on the "look and feel" of it rather than on the practicality. The one-piece design is _perfect_ for picking up your whole workstation under one arm and heading out the door to a meeting or to the tv room for some video work. Really, I think folks who opt to wait for some later two-piece version will miss out on some real flexibility. And as for the case, I've seen lots of ideas for ST cases, but I followed through on one suggested here several years back. I got a "behind-the- pickup-truck-seat" toolcase from KMart for $16. It's a two-tone grey hard plastic case that is absolutely perfect for toting the one-piece 1040ST/1040STe/Falcon030 keyboard/CPU. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 34 Thu Mar 11, 1993 CAN-ASST [Connor] at 02:57 EST Dorothy -- That's exactly my thought. I like the one piece case because of the ease of transport. I've done two local computer shows for my RT and GEnie Canada, or is it three, and I'd love to be able to take a Falcon to the show. All I would have to do is make sure that an extra VGA monitor was there. It's a pain lugging two or three pieces of computer hardware plus a briefcase on the bus :/ The Falcon will make it much easier. My one piece 520 fits in my briefcase, and there should be enough room for a Falcon. ... Connor ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 35 Thu Mar 11, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 17:44 EST Darcy, I am not a hardware engineer, and this is not an official Atari statement, just common sense. The fan was put there for a reason, right? If it was not needed, then it would not have been put in. If noise is a problem, then you will have to put the computer in another room. Anyway, the fan is pretty quiet. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 37 Thu Mar 11, 1993 M.REARDON [Mark Reardon] at 20:36 EST Okay now that you've answered my Migraph question heres another. Whats the status of a 386/486-based emulator for the FALCON ? Is it something I can actually count on seeing and/or buying by the end of this year...??? (Thats the emulator not the FALCON :)) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 38 Thu Mar 11, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:54 EST The problem with putting "the computer in another room" is that you can't do any solo recording unless you've got _really_ long arms. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 39 Fri Mar 12, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 00:23 EST I'll be showing off the Falcon030 at a meeting of the Lake County Atari Computer Enthusiasts at 12 noon on Saturday March 13 at the Gurnee Public Library in Gurnee IL (north of Chicago off I-94). Hope to see some of you there. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 40 Fri Mar 12, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:24 EST Dan, someone didn't think out intended applications versus unit noise, that's life. As usual, when someone at Atari's design center drops the ball, a third party will pick it up and run for the money. I'd expect to see solutions...a thermistor kit (good one Hutch!)...or an external/seperate keyboard hookup so you can put the computer in a different room. Dan, how you gonna type on a Falcon while it's in the other room? Hopefully a Mega-Falcon, with seperate keyboard will happen down the road! Maybe you could call it a Mac LCIII, with a TOS rom card? ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 41 Fri Mar 12, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:45 EST Jim : Appearence is a major factor in the music world, so selling body parts would only be natural. Would you like a color catalog. Curt -- Im not only a Guitar Center Employee- Im also a body parts client.... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 42 Fri Mar 12, 1993 M.EVERHART2 [MIDIMIKE] at 03:48 EST FAIRWEATHER - I don't have my MegaSTe in another room, but it is 8 feet from the key board and I use the remote keys feature of NOTATOR to record. You can use this feature to control ANY midi data. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 43 Fri Mar 12, 1993 T.ZENTHOEFE1 [Tom Z.] at 07:22 EST Darcy, until you actually put your ear to a Falcon 030 to listen to the drive and fan I would not worry. I haven't actually listened for the noise level produced, but with the ambient noise in the area where I have seen a Falcon in use it was impossible for me to hear any fan noise. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 44 Fri Mar 12, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 19:01 EST David, that depends a lot on what the interface on your recording program is like, doesn't it? I mean, I'm not familiar with Midi programs, but if most functions can be done with the mouse you're ok. Just put an extension cable on your mouse and your monitor and bring them into the room you're recording in. If the only thing you need the keyboard for is to type in the filename, well you're done by that point, aren't you? Jim, since you've actually looked at a Falcon's gizzards, can you tell us if it's possible for a third party to transplant a Falcon into a Tower case for those who really want it? I seem to recall some company ws selling such a thing for the ST's, and I know people who've done that to their own ST's so I can't think of why you couldn't do it to a Falcon. Frankly, since Atari has never done a Tower Case and the very sight of one smacks of the dreaded IBM, I think it's unlikely we'll ever see one except as a third party upgrade. A future Falcon in a TT style case is more probable, IMHO, but who know except Atari? And they ain't saying. Time will tell how it all works out. Charlie/sysop jr. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 46 Fri Mar 12, 1993 K.RICHARD2 at 19:58 EST Hope you don't mind if I jump in here concerning "noise" except for vocals most other input would be direct,ie;keyboards,stereos,tapes,cd's ect with line ggoing direct into mic plug so no external noise would p/u.When usine mic a good mic won't p/u except what is near and a liong cord will handle the rest I don't expect it to be a problem my computer runs my midi songs while I record Vocals(not to elaborate a set up though) and I'm 4 to 5 feet from Hard Drive in small room and have not had any problems so far I have a 50 meg ext syquest btw. My two bit's Bndsvnt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 47 Sat Mar 13, 1993 D.PHILLIPS24 [Darcy] at 01:43 EST I think I finally got the right topic for this question- does anyone know of any info on the D2D products, namely D2D edit, the high end audio sampling software, 4I/4O, the digital input/output hardware, or the other audio hardware for the falcon? I am looking for the particulars on these products and the prices, as I am trying to determine what it will REALLY cost me to set up a digital audio/MIDI system using the falcon.Thanks. Darcy. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 48 Sat Mar 13, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 08:10 EST Couldn't you have a long wire on the mic? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 49 Sat Mar 13, 1993 K.HULET [Ken] at 17:34 EST Just saw Computer Chronicles feature voice recognition on clones. One company offered a hardware/software combination that would aloow you to use voice commands with WinDoze. Guess what? It included a 32bit DSP and the package cost less than $1000.00! It would be so much fun to have something like that for the Falcon. Should only need software and minimum hardware. ...........Ken ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 50 Sat Mar 13, 1993 W.DEAN4 [D'noski] at 18:06 EST I was wondering about the so called profesional HD recording stuff that is going to be avalable for the falcon and none of the one's that I have heard of so far support the Full 8 Track record/Playback most support 8 track record but only 2-4 Channel playback...has anyone heard of the product that will support the full potential of the Falcon 030 ....D'noski ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 51 Sat Mar 13, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 20:15 EST Darcy, check out the article on Digital IO in the library for prices on the D2D software/ hardware They are a difficult company to contact (the American part anyway) so I have had little luck getting more info from them. Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 52 Sat Mar 13, 1993 K.RICHARD2 (Forwarded) Darcy Got this info a NAMM there have been other press releases this is from Atari ExplorerNamm Issue. D2D EDIT $299 4T/FX$599 SPD/IO -$299 INPUT/OUTPUT EXPANDER-$599 If you have Barefoot software's EditTrack It will be able to run midi along with D2D's Edit there will also be an audio track to trigger sound files D2D is Distributed in N.A. by Digital IO,2554 Lincoln Blvd#122 Marina Del Rey, Ca. 90291 310-398-3993 Bondservant(Ric) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 53 Sat Mar 13, 1993 JWC-OEO [Jon] at 23:11 EST Hi everyone, I got to see a Falcon in action for the first time today at the show in Sacremento. They had a SC1224 and a TV hooked to the same Falcon in the seminar area. The picture on the SC1224 was much better than the TV with all software demo'd (graphics, games, and Atari Works) and surpisingly good. Flicker varied from hardly noticable to obvious and was usually the former. I think I'll be able to live with it. The picture on the TV was not all that bad considering it appeared to be a plain jane TV set and not a fancy monitior. Still, there were significant color differences between it and the SC1224 (especially in the reds), colors bled (reds again), and there was an odd banded distortion added to some of the nice Kodak CD pitures they showed. I was surpised that Atari was not proudly showing off MultiTos. I had to ask to see it (although they used it later during the CD demo). After I waited several minutes for an Atari Works demo to end, an Atari Rep booted a Falcon in MultiTos for me but then immediately got sidetracked into demonstrating Atari Works again (they are obviously proud of AW) so at least I got to see AW working both under normal-tos and MultiTos. It was noticably slower with MultiTos (no other applications were running). I don't know if there were using the latest version of MultiTos but I sure can't think of any reason why the shouldn't have been this close to Atari central and MultiTos's release date. The Falcons were rebooted several times while I was there and I noticed there often ran NVDI.PRG in the Auto folder. Am I wrong that this is one of the third party VDI replacement/enhancment programs (like Turbo ST and Warp 9)? If so this might be part of the reason AW was so much slower under MultiTos since it had to be removed to allow the Falcon to boot with MultiTos. Jon ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 54 Sun Mar 14, 1993 J.NESS [Jim] at 11:53 EST Jon - Yes, NVDI is a graphics speeder-upper, similar to Warp 9. Atari made some changes in MultiTOS which preclude using the current versions of many of your favorite AUTO programs. That'll change. And, that does contribute to a very visible slowdown onscreen, with MultiTOS. You have to try to ignore the graphics slowdown, when you rate MTOS, since that will be going away. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 55 Sun Mar 14, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 21:22 EST Yeah. NVDI is a program similar to W9, I'm sure they'll switch over to W9 when it's ported to the Falcon. It sure is helpful. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 56 Sun Mar 14, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 21:51 EST Darcy, There is some info in "Electronic Musician", March 1993. Nothing detailed, though. Prices quoted: SPDIO interface, $299. 4I/4O, $599. D2D phone # is [310] 398-3993. Fax [310] 822-1360. Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 57 Sun Mar 14, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:01 EST J.NESS: What exactly do you mean "that will be going away."?? What will? When? How can you be so sure? __________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 58 Mon Mar 15, 1993 J.NESS [Jim] at 00:12 EST Thunderbird - What I meant by "going away" is that the slow redraws themselves will be fixed when someone gets a MTOS-compatible screen accelerator working. Of course, if you load up the system, EVERYTHING will run slowly. But a screen accelerator will make screen draws while single-tasking tolerable. Right now, on an 8mhz system, they are pretty slow. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 59 Mon Mar 15, 1993 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 18:03 EST Jim.. it is important who had the conversation and who the Atari person was. Everyone who would normally talk to outside people have been telling _me_ "March. We don't have a definite date and we don't want to tell people a date and miss that date." The bottom line is that they aren't here yet. We hope that we will have machines to sell to everyone as soon as we can possibly get them. As for the question about how to hook up a SCSI drive to the Falcon030, well.. its simple there is a SCSI-2 port on the Falcon030. All you have to do is hook the drive up to that port with a standard cable. Of course, you will need to have the drive powered by some sort of power supply. Other than that.. that's all you should need. -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 60 Tue Mar 16, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:50 EST for those who like to keep up on these things : Atari has finalized dealer pricing and the new dealer agreement.... things are getting closer! Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 61 Tue Mar 16, 1993 B.REHBOCK [BILL@ATARI] at 05:02 EST Mark Reardon: The Windows emulator from Compo/Sack should be available shorly after CeBIT. It has been shown at many trade shows since September of last year and the last time I saw it, it looked really good. It's much easier for a Falcon to emulate a PC with Windows than it is for a PC With Windows to emulate a Falcon :-) JWC-OEO, et al... To clarify a few things... 1) We were running MultiTOS continually on two of the four machines that were constantly running. It is required for the CD-ROM driver for PhotoCD. I wish that I could have spent more time on MultiTOS, but as things were, my Falcon demos ran two hours long :-) 2) NVDI does run on a Falcon under MultiTOS and in fact speeds up 640x400 True Color mode to 18 times faster than a stock TT in 640x400 monochrome. I do really want to see Warp-9 give it a run for its money :-) There is currently a bug in NVDI that keeps it from running with multiple application that use SpeedoGDOS, but this is expected to be fixed before CeBIT next week. I would like to thank Nick Langdon and the Sacramento User group for the warm reception and putting on a great show. I believe that it went really well and I'd also like to thank J. Patton, Mike Fulton, and Pradip Fathepuria for helping out with the Falcon stage. -Bill @ Atari ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 62 Tue Mar 16, 1993 M.REARDON [Mark Reardon] at 19:42 EST Bill Rehbock Thanks for the response and the info ! Any news as to whether the Compo/Sack will use a 386 or a 486 for the emulation ? And will I be able to use a CD ROM under the IBM emulation ? Thanks for the help ! Mark ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 63 Wed Mar 17, 1993 M.WARNER8 at 09:22 EST On behalf of SST Bill, thank you, Mike, J. Patton, Pradip, and Atari for being at the show and helping making it a success. That was the most Falcons I have ever seen in one place with your four, Oregon Research's two and Barefoots Falcon. Thanks again to you and all those who attended the Expo. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 64 Wed Mar 17, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 21:02 EST I was just wondering will the Falcon need the FOLDRXXX.PRG in the AUTO folder that all the other Ataris need? -- Lou T. -- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 65 Wed Mar 17, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 23:03 EST Lou T., Since TOS 1.4, the folder limit has been eliminated. You can bet the Falcon won't need it. Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 66 Wed Mar 17, 1993 M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:05 EST To all- I'm sorry if this is not the proper place to post this but... I was talking with my cousin yesterday. He runs the Mass. branch of the family semiconductor biz. (I needed some DRAM chips for an upgrade!) Anyway, he asked what type of machine I used. "Atari" I said proudly. He was thrilled! We discussed the machines in general for a while when wouldn't you know it, the Falcon 030 came up! He is _very_ excited to see it, and knew alot about it. Boy, was I surprized _and_ happy. Aparently many of the folks in that industry are more aware than I gavem (them) credit for! Cheers, Matt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 67 Thu Mar 18, 1993 M.DRYSDALE [Drys] at 07:00 EST All Atari just released to the dealers Falcon pricing and new dealer agreements. This means that we are getting *real* close. BTW, the margins are a little tighter than on previous product. Don't expect much, if any, discounting on the Falcons. Mike, GenTech and POWER Computers ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 71 Fri Mar 19, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 01:47 EST Tintin, I have heard and it was to my understanding that ALL STs should be using the FOLDRXXX.PRG. I believe that a "recent" issue of Atari Explorer pointed that out (summer of 92?). It listed all the TOSs and its patches. FOLDRXXX.PRG appeared in all of them. I currently using TOS 1.62 (until I get TOS 4.x w/F030) and I have been using the FOLDRXXX.PRG. Now if I do not need this program I will stop using it, but from what I understand, the bug was not removed after TOS 1.4 but it would not crash anymore, instead I think you get a TOS message (I have not seen this, since I have been using the FOLDRXXX.PRG). If I am mistaken or mislead, please let me know... -- Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 72 Fri Mar 19, 1993 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 02:23 EST L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine]: > > I was just wondering will the Falcon need the FOLDRXXX.PRG in the AUTO >folder that all the other Ataris need? > The folder limit is removed since TOS 1.4. However for some purposes it's necessary to expand the operating system pool and that's what FOLDRxxx.PRG does. The slots in the operating system pool are not only used for folder descriptors, it's also used for Mallocs and files. If an application opens many files and does many mallocs than you might need FOLDRxxx for that application. Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 73 Fri Mar 19, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 04:49 EST The biggest misunderstanding about FOLDRxxx.PRG is in thinking that it is a "bug fix". It really isn't. It is a system configuration. TOS starts out with a certain amount of memory available for storing folder information and memory allocations (due to the sharing involved, one can't really say exactly how much is there in terms that anyone can understand). This is called a memory "pool". If you have a system which requires a larger memory pool (large hard drive, etc.), you should use FOLDRxxx.PRG, and set it to a size to fit your system. This is a _good_ thing, not a bad thing. Those who need the extra memory can set their systems to use it. Those who don't need it can use the memory for other things. In the first two versions of TOS, there was indeed a "bug" which would cause the computer to crash when the memory pool was exhausted. Beginning with TOS 1.04, the pool was expanded and more efficient use was made of the memory. I, for one, am glad that Atari allows the user to configure the memory pool. (MS-DOS users configure theirs with a line in AUTOEXEC.BAT.) John ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 76 Fri Mar 19, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:25 EST Tintin, The folder limit has not been eliminated. This is a common confusion, but the later TOSes have a graceful way of handling the folder limit. However, the limit is still there. Atari itself recommends the use of a folder fix (its own or the one from ICD built into the booter) with all TOS versions. Wilfred, The bug is gone, true, but the folder limit is there unless you increase it. You have to do the same with MS-DOS, too. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 77 Fri Mar 19, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 20:52 EST Al I use the folder fix even with my TT030. I don't know about the Falcon030 but the TT does need it. I'm using TOS 3.05 with the TT030. Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 78 Sat Mar 20, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 03:03 EST W.Kilwinger, John, Al, and Ringo, Thanks for the info on the FOLDRXXX.PRG. It is just as I thought. I use it even though I am using a TOS past 1.4 (1.62 actually until I get TOS 4.x :-) ). I will continue using it for the reasons that you pointed out. Even though my system will not crash without it, I think as you have pointed out, it is good idea to configure the memory pool for your own configuration. Thanks again. -- Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 84 Sat Mar 20, 1993 D.PHILLIPS24 [Darcy] at 12:36 EST Anyone: I consider myself more a layman when it comes to the technical aspects of all this, but does anyone know anything about the mechanics of recording audio direct to hard disk. I've been reading about these systems, and they talk about doing multitrack recording, that is, playing back several "tracks" or separate files(?) off the disk at the same time, and shifting these tracks with respect to each other etc. Maybe I am stuck in the analog tape recorder analogy, but I am having a hard time understanding how a single hard drive can simultaneously reproduce two streams of "audio", 44.1 thousand numbers per second, when they reside at two separate places on the disk. Is a drive capable of actually jumping back and forth between each sample(44 thousand times a second)? Or does the data have to be what they call "interleaved", both files actually intertwined, the way both channels of a stereo file would be? If so, this would mean that every time you wanted to shift one file with respect to the other, that data would actually have to be rewritten on the disk in order to be able to play it, which of course then requires more disk space and would, I imagine, slow down the work considerably. D2D on the falcon claims to be eventually capable of 8 tracks of digital audio, and I am wondering if I need to think about this stuff when planning a hard drive set- up. Would I indeed be better off with several smaller drives than with one big one, or does this matter? Anyone care to enlighten a musician? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 85 Sat Mar 20, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 13:18 EST John @ CodeHead, Wasn't FOLDRXXX.PRG main reason of being to correct the 40-folder limit? I needed it before I upgraded to TOS 1.4, because I had more than 40 folders on a partition. I got rid of it after I upgraded, and had no problem on a 60-meg hard drive. If I need to use it, how will I know? And then, how do I find out the optimal setting? My recommendation as a user is don't use it unless you need it. You most likely don't need it... You can be technical all you want, but I HATE having to configure a computer when on the ST I don't have to. That's why I HATE IBMs :) Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 86 Sat Mar 20, 1993 G.NORTON [Falcon Systm] at 13:29 EST Darcy, If you are planning to do D2D fairly soon after you get a Falcon, do yourself a favour and start off with a large hard drive. Just use the internal 65Mb as a boot drive (ie load your programs from it) and use an external SCSI2 drive for your data storage. Toshiba seems to have some reasonable prices on large capacity (800MB +) SCSI2 drives with 512K cache. The larger drives tend to be faster and have larger caches as well as longer mean time between failures. You will need to pick up an external case, preferably a dual drive case or CPU case. As well if you are planning on doing pro work you will need the ad on from Singular Solutions to give you the 44.xx sampling rate. Graham @ Falcon Systems ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 87 Sat Mar 20, 1993 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 16:27 EST TinTin, >I HATE having to configure a computer when on the ST I don't have >to. But that's just what I'm trying to say. In the case of the GEMDOS memory pool, you _do_ have to configure your ST. If you don't need more than "40 folders", you configure it by leaving FOLDRxxx.PRG out of your AUTO folder. If you _do_ need "more than 40 folders", you configure your ST by installing FOLDRxxx.PRG or using the extra folders option of ICD. The term "more than 40 folders" is misleading. The amount of memory pool you need depends on how many folders you access and how much memory is being allocated. Using a lot of resident programs tends to cause more blocks to be allocated. There's no way to accurately predict what you need. It's more of a trial-and-error. If you run without extra folders and never get a message (or in early ROMs, a crash or seemingly missing files), then you've configured it correctly. Otherwise, you should add to your memory pool. Some folks just use 200 to be safe. It doesn't take a whole lot of memory, but those folks that don't need it, don't have to waste the memory. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 89 Sat Mar 20, 1993 SLP at 22:40 EST Graham, I was thinking that a Syquest drive would be great for digital recording. I think the 88 meg versions are quite fast, as well. Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 90 Sat Mar 20, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 22:49 EST I realize that this has already been addressed, but as the release time of the Falcon grows nearer (I hope), I have been looking into a good multi-sync monitor for it. I would like to access all the resolutions that the Falcon offers. What are the sync and scan rates that I should be looking at? Thanks! -- Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 91 Sat Mar 20, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 23:02 EST Joey, You must not access many files and folders in any one session. I have something in the range of 1,200 folders in my D partition alone. Al Darcy, You are thinking of digital recording as something similar to analog, where you usually do, indeed, have physically or magnetically separate tracks. This is not the case -- not necessarily the case, at least -- in digital recording. I'm not an expert in this, just a journalist who has written about audio and has been a semi-pro recordist for 30 years. Maybe someone else can explain the Falcon system for you. Al Tintin, You can have 10,000 folders without needing to worry about the folder limit. It's only when the OS accesses folders (or files, as I understand it from John Townsend) that they accumulate in the pool set up in the operating system. TOS 1.04 and later versions deal with that pool more intelligently, but it is still possible to run out of space in that pool for folder handles. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 93 Sat Mar 20, 1993 C.OATES2 [Chris] at 23:52 EST Graham: YOu might need an add-on to do more than one track at a time of recording, but not for the CD quality sampling rate. (44.1) The falcon does do that out of the box. ~Chris ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 94 Sun Mar 21, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 02:22 EST Darcy- Doing direct to disk recording takes up an incredible amount of hard disk space, about 11 megs a minute. I'd suggest that rather than a couple of smaller hard disks, you follow Graham's suggestion and just take the plunge on a big, fast drive. Some of the Toshiba's are excellent, and the 1.2 Gigabyte Micropolis units are starting to drop in price as well. I'd also be remiss if I didn't remind you of the importance of backing up your data, too. :) I've lost 40 megs before, but had a recent back up. The thought of losing 1.2 gigabytes of data makes me break out in cold chills....brrrrr!!!! best regards, Bob ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 95 Sun Mar 21, 1993 D.GORDON2 [DENNIS] at 12:15 EST I don't think it's been mentioned here, but what provision is made for backing up the huge files produced by digital recording? I believe Hybrid's Digital Master allowed you to dump the files to DAT and free up your hard drive space. Does D2D have a similar plan? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 96 Sun Mar 21, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 15:08 EST Al, I've got a 1057 on my C: Partition. I'm assuming I'll get a message when I over exagerate myself.:-) I haven't had a reason to use it so far. Early on I used it to prevent missing files and such if the error did occur but even before that I never did have a problem. Sounds like an individuals call on this one. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 98 Sun Mar 21, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 17:00 EST 1.2 gig backups to 1.44 floppies would be a task I don't think anyone would be up to. Over 800 1.44s. Ouch!! That's the problem with those LARGE HDs. :-) For storing large recording (your collection), wouldn't an Optical drive be a better choice? I know the drives are expensive but, for a 600meg cart, it only cost around $60.00. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 99 Sun Mar 21, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 17:47 EST John, Al, Thanks. I always thought that the limitation had to do with the number of folders in a partition. I've learned something new. Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 100 Sun Mar 21, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:24 EST Joey, Looks like plain old luck. I used to hit the folder limit now and then when I had the ICD software set for 200. It's at 999 now; overkill, maybe, but RAM on the TT is cheap. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 101 Sun Mar 21, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 20:46 EST Optical drives are still pretty slow arent they? (and expensive) Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 102 Sun Mar 21, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:30 EST I just had a close encounter with a Quantum 1.2Gig drive, for a customer, and it is AMAZING!!!! Cost $1,500 though. Ugh. There's a lot of confusion over DATs, I haven't the foggiest which to by, Wang units are selling cheap...$990 for a 2.0Gig, but heck, Wang's in bankruptcy. Others are $1500 up to $4000, way too rich for mere mortals. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 103 Mon Mar 22, 1993 K.RICHARD2 at 00:59 EST I think anyone going to get serious enough about d2d recording will have a D.A.T recorder or should get one because a 1.2 gig H.D is only about 2 hours o C.D. quality music as I understand the memory requirements approx 10-11 megs per minute so once you have finished editing your music you play to DAT and canplay back in to reedit later not quite a backup as you will probably have only two channels(stereo) for reedit but probably what most of us will have in a home studio, from what Brad tells me at Barefoot Software removable cartridges will be too slow for real time useso only good for storage and would have to upload to HD when ever needed ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 104 Mon Mar 22, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:50 EST Jim, I'm not sure the WangDAT division is in bankruptcy, though. It may be separate. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 105 Mon Mar 22, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 14:57 EST Dennis, I suspect that D2D plan is that you should get a good backup program and use it, like probably 99% of the other packages will require. Probably a good time to investigate Diamond Back, and streaming tape, ICD back up units, etc. Wayne, Backing up one of those big drives is like owning a yacht...if you can't handle the maintence of 'em, you shouldn't buy one! :) I suspect that 1.2 gigabyte drives are still pricey enough that they are only going to be utilized by professionals at this point. Even here in the Silicon Valley, the prices are still in the $1100 range for most models of a 1.2 gigabyte drive. Curt, Your right, the optical drives are still too slow for use in direct to disk recording. In fact, James Grunke tells me that even faster hard drives will be needed in order to do the ever greater number of multiple track(s) recordings that some of the developers are anxious to try out! IE like 16 tracks at a time! regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 106 Mon Mar 22, 1993 J.MUHA at 19:05 EST While this is not a technical question, it does relate to the FALCON I used the reader survey card in the BYTE mag with the article on the Falcon. I also circled a few OTHER products to see what would happen. As of Saturday EVERY company responded to the inquiry (Tape back up, 'Power surge protectors, etc....) every company that is BUT Atari. Now, I know that Atari is not know for its advertising strength, BUT when a company gets an "unpaid advertisment" (positive press) followed by a request from a potential consumer, don't you think that SOMEONE would follow up? Who is , or WAS, responsible? Dr. Joseph Muha PD The Digital Man ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 107 Mon Mar 22, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:04 EST Bob, >gigabyte drives are still pricey enough that they are only going to be >utilized by professionals at this point. Even here in the Silicon Valley, >the prices are still in the $1100 range for most models of a 1.2 gigabyte >drive. I paid $900 Cdn for my MegaFile 30 in 1988. I think that was pricey. $1100 for 1.2 gigabytes seems quite reasonable. I was pretty ignorant at the time and thought I had to buy and Atari Drive to run on an Atari machine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 108 Mon Mar 22, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 20:54 EST Please reply to the Byte question over in category 18. The post (slightly different) is in both place. However, ATARI could reply to it here. Thanks. *******Brian********* Written on Monday 22 March 1993 at 08:42 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 109 Mon Mar 22, 1993 M.EVERHART2 [MIDIMIKE] at 21:31 EST All this is exiting, but I run a home studio on a shoe string and what I want is digital quality for a *teeny* bit of money. I would be very happy if Falcon could record digitally to TAPE on a Yamaha MT100 (which I just happen to have). I would drool if it would even do digital effects on the way to the tape! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 110 Mon Mar 22, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 22:03 EST Bob, The opticals would make a good backup platform for those large files though. That way you could load up the HD with only what's needed at the moment. My Maxtor provides 1024+K/sec and the Quantums do just as good or better. Are drives faster than that going to be needed and does SCSI II drives provide that speed? What about IDE? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 111 Mon Mar 22, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 23:10 EST BOB-- yea, most d2d software over 4 tracks will demand at least two hard drives to get up to speed, Im hoping the SCSI II will change that(and give the Falcon another advantage) -- an 8track PC recorder just came out from Digidesign (Session 8) I havent gotten one to play with yet, but at $4000+486 it is the closest thing the clones have to what a Falcon is "capable of" <--- of course no falcon software supports 8 tracks!! Even the four track Audio Media Card is $1295, and the SOund Tools system is $3000...... Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 113 Tue Mar 23, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 01:01 EST Maybe Atari could have a Falcon030 launch rebate deal? For instance, for 90 days (or, through the end of Summer), they could offer a $100 rebate on the purchase of a 4/65 model F030? It took Commodore's giving a $500 rebate AND throwing in a CDTV (they had to do SOMETHING with them! ) for people to get interested in buying an A3000. A $100 rebate on a Falcon030 4/65 is peanuts compared to that! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 114 Tue Mar 23, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 20:21 EST Hmm... How about offering a $50 good toward an Atari Monitor with the purchase of a Falcon up to a certain date? It would appear you where getting a great deal but to Atari you'd still be paying for the monitor they'd just lose the mark up. Speaking of monitors... Why doesn't Atari carry 1 monitor from now on? Get with NEC and have them make a special 3D monitor for around $350 that will plug into all of Atari's computers. Most people would buy it probably if it supported all the resolutions. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 115 Tue Mar 23, 1993 J.THOMAS12 [JT] at 21:49 EST Joey, I second that motion. If 3D's were plentiful, it would help extend the lives of the other Ataris and certainly wouldn'rt hurt the Falcon any. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 116 Tue Mar 23, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 22:44 EST well.... March is ending... any demo units shipping? Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 117 Wed Mar 24, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 00:12 EST Joey, I think Atari is getting out of the monitor bizz. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 118 Wed Mar 24, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 16:20 EST Joseph- As the leads from BYTE come in, they go to James Grunke and he sends them out to dealers, or contacts the rep firms for the leads that are dealer oriented. I'm sorry that you haven't been contacted yet. Drop me a note in email and let me know what other information you are interested in, I'm happy to help with this. See Flat, Hey in 1988 I paid $1290 US for a 1040ST, 30 meg HD and a color monitor, plus software. You're right, things have changed! :) But I still think that most people will regard $1100 for just the mechanism as pricey. I could be wrong, heck...I hope I'm wrong! :) Wayne, You're right, the opticals WOULD make good back ups. I just don't have the confidence in their ability to be fast enough for recording. The SCSI-II standard isn't the problem from what I've been told. It's the actual access speed of the drives in order to be able to do the higher number of multitrack recording that is the problem. Joey, I'm not sure that the NEC-3D would enable a user to be able to use all of the Falcon's video modes. Remember that for serious video applications overscan is a must. That's something that is readily available on an SC1224 or SC1435, but not on most VGA monitors. In the past when I've asked our engineers to recommend a monitor at the price point that you've described (about $300) that will handle everything, they've laughed. Such a unit does exist, but at about $700. Curt, We're expecting the units in late this week/early next week. They'll make it out in time. Don't forget that we need the dealers to send in their paperwork as well!! Have you sent in yours??? regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 119 Wed Mar 24, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 19:18 EST Bob, The Falcons multitude of Video resolutions are confusing everyone.:- ) Atari needs to do something about this before the big push. You need some sort of suggestion plan or multi purpose monitor. It doesn't have to do everything just cover the basics for a decent price. Even if you would just come up with a chart of current monitors and what they support, I think it would be a big help to both your dealers and users. Maybe work out a deal with NEC or Sony to sell one of their monitors with the Falcon cheaper then normal. I believe the Sony 1304 is fairly cheap and syncs to the ST resolutions. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 120 Wed Mar 24, 1993 M.REARDON [Mark Reardon] at 20:34 EST Realm Thats a great idea - how about it Bob ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 121 Wed Mar 24, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 20:39 EST Bob: PLEASE tell us the name of the monitor that your engineers recommended that will display all the falcon modes... PLEASE. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 122 Wed Mar 24, 1993 S.WINICK at 22:35 EST Joseph, I can confirm what Bob said about the leads from BYTE being referred to the regional reps and/or dealers. I had several referred to me from our regional rep firm which we followed up on with a personal phone call and a product flyer mailing. Of course, some of those leads also turned into sales of existing products for those who couldn't wait for the Falcon or whose needs would be better served by another product, such as the TT030. In any case, those leads generally result in another new Atarian welcomed into our community. ;-) Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 123 Thu Mar 25, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:29 EST Bob : I just talked to James Grunke today, and our buyer, and anyone else who is involved in getting me Falcons. As usual James was very helpful, its nice to have someone who has returned my phonecalls, every single time, the same day I have called him. I am really pushing everyone involved to get things going on my end, I get phone calls everyday as I quickly h ave become the Minnesota connection for Falcons, we have devoted, a WHOLE room for the Falcon at Guitar Center. The latest AEO was great, I have posted it on other local boards, and everyone is excited and eager. The Falcons are late.... but far from too late. I hope to see one within two weeks (6 day shipping time)... Until then, keep the Falcons pumping........ Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 124 Thu Mar 25, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 00:32 EST Oh, thats is real good. Imagine getting information from the closest dealer which could be hundreds of miles away. That's going to look real good. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 126 Thu Mar 25, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 05:09 EST Atari's getting out of the monitor (and laser printer, I believe) business and hasn't even been shipping PTC1426's (TT color), or even SM147's (and, from what I've recently heard, SC1435's as well!!) for quite some time. It would be GREAT if someone could get NEC to get the 3D's back in production, though! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 127 Thu Mar 25, 1993 S.WINICK at 06:17 EST Steve, SJ> Atari's getting out of the monitor (and laser printer, I SJ> believe) business and hasn't even been shipping PTC1426's (TT SJ> color), or even SM147's (and, from what I've recently heard, SJ> SC1435's as well!!) for quite some time. You're correct about the PTC1426 not shipping any more as that model was discontinued over a year ago. But as far as Atari no longer shipping their normal ST monitors, I don't know where you heard that. Our March Atari resupply shipment included a dozen SM147's, eighteen SC1224's and a couple of SC1435's. Oh, yes, and a bunch of TTM195's as well. And..... to go with those monitors we also got plenty of TT030's and MegaSTe's. The SLM605's were restocked with our February order. I hardly feel that sounds like they've stopped shipping all those things. It sure seems like we've been selling SOMETHING this month. ;-] Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 128 Thu Mar 25, 1993 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 14:11 EST Steve, We've indicated that the Falcon can work with the ST series of monitors or with VGA units. Both units are readily available at very reasonable prices. In short, the chart woud read SC1224, SC1435, SM124, SM147, VGA We've got plenty of the ST Color monitors in stock, Steve's comments are in error in that regard as Sheldon has already pointed out. Your idea about making a deal with a particular manufacturer is something that is better suited to a dealer to do, they have access to a vast array of monitor manufacturers, and can determine which one they think will work the best with the emphasis they have at their dealership. Dave, HI! I'll ask when they get back from CeBIT. That will be after the first week of April. Seems to me it was a Sony though. Cost around $750 retail at our local electronics superstore. best regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 129 Thu Mar 25, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 18:36 EST The whole thing being that we are looking for 1 monitor and get away from this 2 monitors deal. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 130 Thu Mar 25, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:55 EST Thanks Bob, It will be great to hear what your very own engineers will recommend for a monitor. Even if it costs a lot, it will be worth it to have only one. _______________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 131 Thu Mar 25, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 23:58 EST Joey... Please bear in mind that there is NO NEED to sync to ST resolutions with the Falcon! The ST compatible modes are simulated by the OS and are actually higher res. Bob... What monitor for $700 can do all of the Falcons video? -------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 132 Fri Mar 26, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 00:20 EST Joey, Great ideas and suggestions about the Falcon monitor issue. BOB, But won't you get some flickering on the SC1435 on the Falcon with some of it's modes? Also, the SC1435 seems to have a rather large dot picth. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 133 Fri Mar 26, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 00:29 EST Lou, I notice flickering only in the interlaced modes on the SC1224 and SC1435 -- and I avoid those modes because of it. I still haven't seen it on a VGA, but I understand there's no flickering with that, but then you can't use overscan. One needs to determine how the Falcon will primarily be used before one can choose the best monitor for that use. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 134 Fri Mar 26, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 02:50 EST Bob Brodie, made reference to this once before and though your answer was somewhat encouraging it was not too clear. I asked about Falcon waranty in regards to putting in a Math chip. You said "Atari made it very easy to upgrade the machine by user". Since the first models available will be 4/65 no Math Chip, did your statement mean we can buy a chip and stick it in ourselves without voiding the guarantee or did you mean we have to send it to an authorized Atari dealer? And _HE_ can easily do it? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 135 Fri Mar 26, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:24 EST Sheldon, What's your price for a TTM195? Leave e-mail if you wish. Sam, My MicroScan 15-inch Super VGA ($430 at deep discount) can do all the Falcon modes. They're all VGA modes if you have a VGA or SVGA monitor attached. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 137 Fri Mar 26, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 13:33 EST The upgrade to an FPU is a simple plug in, there is a socket on the Falcon motherboard. You need an MC68882FN16A or if an experiment Joey and I are doing works, you can buy an MC68882FN33A and a 33Mhz crystal and not only have an FPU, but one that works twice as fast as stock. No hopefully Atari didn't make the same mistake I did on the Tiny030, and wire the FPU for 32bit communications to the 030, while the rest of the system is 16bit...it no workie. Made me have to go back and fix all the boards...ugh. We'll know as soon as Joey gets his Falcon and plugs the FPU in and does the mod. The 16Mhz chip costs around $40, the 33Mhz one costs $75, a little more than the PGA versions cost, but the Falcon uses the SMD version in a socket. I just wish they had given it a seperate clock by design, and maybe used the PGA version instead....since the max speed on the PGA is 50Mhz (60 really ;-) while the max on the SMD is only 33Mhz. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 138 Fri Mar 26, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 18:56 EST Sam, I know theres no need to sync ST Resolutions on the Falcon but it's not the only computer Atari makes.:-) In fact... I'd be willing to bet theres more ST users now then Falcon users... probably out numbered a good 3 to 1.:-) Jim, I didn't realize I was experimenting, glad you told me!:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 139 Fri Mar 26, 1993 J.NESS [Jim] at 20:50 EST I sure hope all these nasty rumors I am hearing about more FCC problems have now been resolved. Where's our mole at the FCC when we need him? If it's as serious as what I've been hearing (and it rarely is with this type of rumor), April shipments would be impossible. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 141 Sat Mar 27, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 01:40 EST Jim, I wouldn't doubt a problem like that and Atari say it's something else. Seems we always here another version of a story from Atari than what is the truth. At least in the past it has been and I don't think they have changed THAT much. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 142 Sat Mar 27, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 01:46 EST S.WINICK - I'd heard from a few sources that SM147's were AT LEAST no longer being produced (but that Atari could still have a supply of them). I'd only heard one thing about SC1435's supposedly being no longer in production, though. Funny thing is, the source for all this (mis)information didn't come from STReport! Maybe that's why I believed it! BOB-BRODIE - Sorry about the misinformation on the monitors! By the way, has Atari communicated w/ Computer Chronicles yet? SAM-RAPP - There IS a NEED to sync to ST resolutions if you want true color and overscan (like 384x240, 768x240, or 768x480). If people just want 'normal' ST modes and VGA, though, they'll only need a VGA monitor. L.TRAPANI - Yes, the SC1224/SC1435 flickers A LOT with the desktop in 640x400. For displaying pictures, though, it's not nearly as noticeable. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 143 Sat Mar 27, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 01:56 EST D.A.Brumleve, The interlaced modes are the true color modes, right? --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 144 Sat Mar 27, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 02:08 EST Steve-J, >L.TRAPANI - Yes, the SC1224/SC1435 flickers A LOT with the desktop in 640x400. >For displaying pictures, though, it's not nearly as noticeable. Thanks for the info...I figured they may be flickering in the 640x400 mode. I guess a good multisync will have to be the answer. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 145 Sat Mar 27, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 08:10 EST Lou, you have several choices with the new "Set Video" option in the Options menu. You can choose a "compatibility mode" -- these are the 3 ST resolutions with the appropriate ST-like number of colors. You can choose a variety of resolution dimensions and colors (like "40-column true color, 80-column true color, 80-column 256-color" etc.), and in addition you can choose interlaced or non-interlaced. If I recall correctly, all these resolution/color combinations are available in both interlaced and non-interlaced variations. Only when interlaced mode is enabled do I detect the kind of flicker you are talking about. You can run in true-color without interlacing. Now, what all this _means_, I'd rather leave to somebody else. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 146 Sat Mar 27, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 08:28 EST Are you talking about the rumor that some units found in stores in Europe have NO DSP and NO Cart Port, due to excessive signal leakage? I wish I could debunk this, but I cannot. ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 147 Sat Mar 27, 1993 POTECHIN [Nathan] at 18:55 EST MY Falcon HAS a cartridge port AND a DSP. I am referring to the Falcon sitting on one of the desks at our office. I cannot offer an opinion on a rumour, just a bit of a fact. Nathan@DMC ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 149 Sat Mar 27, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:59 EST Dot, The Falcon must do interlacing if it is used in higher-than-ST-medium resolutions with an ST color monitor. But it can do non-interlaced on a VGA monitor. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 150 Sat Mar 27, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 21:20 EST Al, I don't know what I'm talking about. ;-) It's just that there are three groups of options: interlaced/non-interlaced, the compatibility modes, and the number of columns/number of colors. The desktop on my SC1224 looks like ST Medium in 80-column true-color mode, but I can view targa files and the like no problem. No flicker as long as I leave the interlacing off. I think it would be really nice if somebody who understands this would explain it. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 151 Sun Mar 28, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 00:04 EST This interlace/flicker/SC/VGA thingy: What I think everyone is wondering: what modes flicker, and why. First off, many people think that interlacing means that the picture must flicker. As a certain PBS show host would say, "WRONG!" Your TV interlaces all the time! To wrap this up, large motionless areas of color will seem to flicker more than a screen with just a image of a mountain, say, Mt. Fuji. My understanding is that the SC monitor's hardware can handle vertical (y) resolution of 200 pixels and a horizontal resolution (x) of 640 pixels (incidently, the number of colors does not affect if a graphics mode must be interlaced). Exceeding these limits could possibly make a few users angry . The only way to get higher than 640x200 on an SC would be to interlace which is where one screen with every other scanline drawn and the next screen with the the other scanlines (a scanline is one line of horizontal pixels). While a screen may still be drawn every 60th of a second, only half of the screen is drawn in one "draw", giving an effective 30 screens per second. But what about a VGA monitor? Why do they not flicker? They are simply able to handle the extra resolution, and don't have to interlace. Not to say that you can't interlace VGA to attain higher resolutions, but it is not currently in use. If I went overly simplified, I'm sorry. If I didn't explain enough, ask! This is a technical question about the Falcon, isn't it? If I messed something up, correct me! To sum things up: o Interlace modes for the SC monitors allow you to attain the higher resolutions of a VGA monitor, and the extra colors, but the cost is in the quality of the image. o Interlace by itself doesn't cause flicker. Large areas of the same color which do not change will seem to flicker more on an interlaced screen. And to make some simple conclusions on monitor choice: Many of us would love to be able to use all of the Falcon's graphics modes. Unfortunatly, not all of us can sink alot of money on a single monitor (or multiple monitors). When it comes down to choosing if you want a standard SC monitor or a VGA monitor, you need to know what you are going to do with your Falcon. If you are planning on heavy graphics applications than the SC monitor would be a good choice. This would be programs like art/drawing, animation, and maybe games. If you are going to use the Falcon for things like DTP or wordprocessing, the VGA monitor would be a better choice. In my opinion, for general usage, the VGA monitor would be the better choice. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 153 Sun Mar 28, 1993 D.JOHNSON143 [Eric Blair] at 00:57 EST I was wondering if anyone could help a bewildered non-Atarian Is it necessary to run Multi-Tos to use the Falcon? Can you just run Tos from rom if you want to run a single application at a time when the timing is critical--the Hotz midi translator for example. In the Cebit news topic, there was mention of a genlocking device from JRI or Russell engineering(?) Does anyone know how to get in to touch with them, or if some fine dealer like Toad or Computer Studio will carry such genlocking devices We're working with video and computer imaging as well. I've heard that intially the Falcon will ship in it's 4 meg/65megHD configuration. How long until we can purchase 14 meg Falcons? yours sincerely, Eric ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 154 Sun Mar 28, 1993 HUTCH [FAIR-DINKUM] at 01:13 EST Sean -- a nice explanation which should clear up the confusion which has, er, "interlaced" this topic lately. :) Good job, thanks. -Hutch- @ Fair Dinkum Tech ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 155 Sun Mar 28, 1993 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 03:16 EST Dougherty, What you say is true.. and this is the perplexing situation Atari has put folks in! .. The rest of the industry (Apple/486 systems) have the ability to show 64K colors at 640x480 without and flicker.. i.e. Non-Interlaced.... soooo... to do the SAME functions on the Falcon030 will cost you an EXTRA monitor i.e. True color AND crisp VGA/SVGA for Word proccessing!! I Want both modes.. as I am SURE most folks here do.. All this means is.. the the Falcon030 is just TOO expensive a system for the home in its current configuration.. MINIMUM.. Atari must improve the graphics/resolution to be competitive with the base products of its competitors.. i.e. 640x480x64K colors(or higher) NON-INTERLACED!.. I have yet to see Atari respond here to your questions on what mointor to buy!!! ... REASON.. They have no answer.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 156 Sun Mar 28, 1993 S.WINICK at 08:13 EST J.RICHTER, 640 x 480 x 64K colors is _hardly_ the "base product" of ANY of Atari's competitors in the personal computer marketplace. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 157 Sun Mar 28, 1993 R.WILSON36 [Bob Wilson] at 08:41 EST Sheldon, sorry but you are correct but not the way that you think. For most clowns the base resolution is rapidly becoming 800 by 600 by 65K. The ATI and Stealth cards are just so cheap that 640 by 480 by 16 million is rapidly appearing on almost all cheap clones. Here in Toronto the 3 pages of cl;one ads in the Toronto Star all have super VGA (800 600) with 65K as the maximum colors. Of course they cost less than the Falcon. If you get to Falcon price territory (Whatever that is in Canada) then generally 16 million color boards are included (usually the ATI VGA XL24). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 158 Sun Mar 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 09:38 EST Excellent, Sean. Al Eric, MultiTOS is not needed to run anything on the Falcon. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 159 Sun Mar 28, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:46 EST Sean: The was a great explanation. I'd like to expand on what you said by adding that if you want to see the "flicker" for yourself, watch your normal TV set and tune into a channel like "The Weather Channel" or "CNN" or a local Newscast, which all use fancy graphics on normal TV which is interlaced just as you described. Interlacing is extremely apparent while displaying the edge of two contrasting horizontal areas of color, so watch your TV and look for a graphic to come onscreen which has a nice horizontal line in it, like an underline, or a border. You will notice right away the way in which the edges (top and bottom) of the line pulsate or flicker. By adjusting the contrast and brightness you can usually lessen the effect, but then you have to deal with a lousey picture. Another place where you can find interlace flicker is in a "Letterboxed" movie. TNT/Turner show them occasionally. "Letterboxed" movies are widescreen movies which are a lot wider and shorter than the shape of the TV picture tube, so they fill in the areas at the top and bottom of the picture with a black border. Look at the edge between the black border and the movie image, and you will see the flicker easily. Many commercials and music videos use this technique to give a theatrical effect, so look there too. If you are able to tune into "The Weather Channel" you will see the "worst case" scenario of interlace flicker, which appears on a horizontal line 1 pixel high. That channel displays at regular intervals "State" maps which have the various counties indicated by 1 pixel wide/high boundary lines. Like I said before, this is the "worst case" for interlace flicker, and the _most_ similar case to the DeskTop you will see on TV (since the desktop uses lots of 1 pixel high lines in it's windows, etc. You can visually see the entire lines flashing on and off. The effect is quite annoying. If you don't have a problem with the flickering in the above examples, then the SC monitors should suit you just fine. Also, I think that Sean should have stressed more that currently, there is no way to display a NON-interlaced 16 bit color screen in 640x480 mode, and that you cannot display an "overscanned" screen on a VGA monitor. Overscanning is a technique which allows the video hardware to fill the entire screen area with image, rather than a rectangular portion some distance from the edges of the picture tube. When computers were first hooked up to CRT's, (TV screens), it was noticed that because of variances between displays, or the age of a particular display, that the image would no longer be centered properly. It was decided that computer screens would need to be displayed with a large blank border around them to insure that every monitor would be able to display the whole image and nothing would be shifted off the edge of the picture tube on a monitor that drifted with age. Because Television/Video fills the enture screen with image, having a computer which does the same is really desireable for doing Desktop Video or Multimedia or Video Titling or Genlocking, etc. You cannot do overscanning on a standard inexpensive VGA monitor. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 160 Sun Mar 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 10:50 EST J. Richter, S-VGA monitors are cheap, and all you need for the Falcon is a decent one. I expect to see the price of a typical 14-inch S-VGA to drop below $199 soon. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 161 Sun Mar 28, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 11:02 EST Mr. Richter: First, are you a plant from IBM, Intel, or Microsoft? Everything has it's cost, in quality. If you have been paying attention, you would know that the graphics hardware of the Falcon is extremely programmable. Resolutions of 1024x678 (yes, 678) in 16 colors NI have been done with external hardware, and modes like 800x600x16 have been done without hardware. By hardware, I would assume it would be a simple pulse generator. Atari has responded! Bob Brodie has talked about this and mentioned a Sony monitor. What home users that you know use 800x600 on a kloan? None of my friends. Why? It is unbearably slow. YES, Mr. Richter. SLOW. But you will say that with local bus and a nice video card with a windows accelerator will work just fine. Too bad that blows away your "just to expensive" arguement. The major difference between klone video, and ST-type video, is that on the klones the video RAM is external of main RAM while on the ST it is in main RAM. Both have their advantages. On the ST, the video sub-system has to tell the processor to wait a bit for it to read the RAM and translate it, thus slowing things down. This is elminated on kloans by placing the RAM external, so this doesn't happen. On the other hand however, the ST can draw to the screen directly without any indirect busses. The klones must tell the video card indirectly what to do. One can equate this to your local transit system. You are a "task" and you want to plot a point on the screen. On the ST you would look at your schedule, get on the bus, and get off at the correct stop. On a kloan, you look at one schedule, get on a bus to a stop, take a look at another bus schedule and get on a second bus to where you want to go. Which would *you* rather do? Which would you want happening in your computer? So, Mr. Richter. Take a look again at the price of your klone, and *please* explain to me how in the world the Falcon030 is expensive, overall. Thunderbird: I get the oppurtunity to watch the Weather Channel on a 32 inch TV, and it is not pretty. Overscanning is a very interesting idea. Very good idea on Atari's part to include it as an OS call. All: Perhaps Atari will surprise us and do something totally unexpected and also does some good. Who knows...I know I don't. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 162 Sun Mar 28, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 11:58 EST It sounds to me like I will be very satisfied with the performance of my SC1435 which is now working with my STe. That means I won't need to buy another monitor. Knock $350 from the cost of a Falcon system!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 163 Sun Mar 28, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 15:10 EST Wouldn't another difference between ST RGB monitor interlacing and TV (NTSC) interlacing be that flicker would show up more prominently on an ST RGB monitor due to the following: 1 - Computer monitors have lower persistance phosphors than TV CRT's 2 - From what I understand, 'interlacing' on an ST RGB monitor isn't the same kind of interlacing because it's actually switching between two pictures at 30fps ON THE SAME SCAN LINES whereas on TV it does alternating scan lines (i.e. whereas NTSC interlacing would display a frame as two halves of a (for argument's sake) 480-line picture by first displaying scan lines 1, 3, 5, ..., 477, 479 in 1/60th of a second and then displaying scan lines 2, 4, 6, ..., 478, 480 in another 1/60th of a second, the Falcon's interlacing on an ST RGB monitor works by having two half-screens stored in memory (one as lines 1, 3, 5, etc. and one as 2, 4, 6, etc.) and switching between both screens every 1/60th of a second where one scan line switches between lines 1 and 2, the next scan line between lines 3 and 4, and so on). Sorry if #2 sounds a little unclear and/or confusing. Something else I was thinking about was that, if Atari's pricing for the Falcon030 IS, in fact, 'in-line' with hardware from other manufacturers, the 4/65 model SHOULD sell for around the $1000 range ($1050 or less). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 164 Sun Mar 28, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:08 EST Thunderbird, Actually, TV is already overscanned. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 165 Sun Mar 28, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 19:35 EST Steve: Not only is does the phosphor not "glow" as long in computer monitors (as compared to TVs), but the TV circuitry also tries to smooth out the image as it draws. That is one reason why RF'ed STs give a fuzzy picture. Not so surprisingly, however, it seems to make graphics images look better... Al: TV overscanned? hmmm. Or is it that monitors are underscaned? B^) Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 166 Sun Mar 28, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:13 EST Steve-J: Where did you hear that the falcon interlaced on an SC monitor by showing alternate fields on the same lines??? Isn't there a program that does that in software already? I've heard it isn't very attractive. Al: If I gave you the impression that NTSC wasn't already overscanned, then I must've mistyped something. NTSC (Television) has always been overscanned. Sean: Does TV actually go out of it's way to smoothe out the picture, or it just a result of the antiquated analog technology? ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 167 Mon Mar 29, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 01:27 EST I have to say that I must agree with Sean and Sheldon. First off, as an artist, I am looking forward to the graphics that will be possible on the Falcon030. So it is important to me. But to compare it to "base models" of other platforms is not all that fair. I have found very few computers in the same price range of the Falcon that will do 64K colors. But judging the price of the Falcon030 on the video resolutions alone is not fair, because you are getting more then just that, it will have the DSP chip and all it has to offer. It will have incredible sound as well. Even if the entry level machine on the other platforms are cheaper than the Falcon, once you add all the video and sound boards to get it to try to match the Falcon, than it is much more than you thought. I have already heard of a video enhancement to the Falcon that will obviously enhance the graphics power on the machine even more. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 168 Mon Mar 29, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:55 EST Sean, It's the monitor. You're right. But for most TVs in which the monior is just the picture tube -- no external connection -- it's all the same thing. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 169 Mon Mar 29, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 13:15 EST By the way, an important fact I haven't seen mentioned here yet is that it is not possible to get into 80-column true-color mode on a VGA monitor. The only true-color mode available from the desktop when using a VGA monitor is the 40-column mode -- the equivalent of ST low resolution. Also, it's quite true that the flicker in interlaced modes (using an Atari color monitor like the SC1224) is _very_ bad. Some people will probably be able to use true-color mode without discomfort, but I'm not one of them. As I've been compatibility-testing our software for the Falcon I find that I can't work in true-color mode for very long (more than about 10 minutes) without suffering tired eyes and the beginnings of a headache. For productivity work like word processing or DTP, I think a VGA monitor is a necessity. If you plan to do _both_ true-color graphics work and productivity, you'll probably need both monitors. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech Monday, March 29, 1993 9:37 am ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 170 Mon Mar 29, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 14:21 EST Isn't there 640x240x65536 on VGA? I don't have a Falcon, so I wouldn't know. 8^) The thing about flicker is that how much one percieves changes from person-to-person. I tend to be a little sensitive to flicker, while one friend of mine can't tell much difference between 60Hz and 50Hz modes. Also, if you turn down the contrast, the flicker will decrease. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 171 Mon Mar 29, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 16:33 EST Eric, The Falcon runs fine with or without MultiTOS, so no problem there. ;-) The JRI people are over in Germany now, so you may have some problems getting in touch with them right now, but the info on them is: John Russel Innovations P.O. Box 5277 Pittsburgh, CA 94565 (415) 458-9577 Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 172 Mon Mar 29, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 18:48 EST In the desktop's "Set Video" dialog box, the "True-Color" option is disabled in the popup menu until you set the "Columns" to 40. So no, there is no 640x240x65526 mode on a VGA monitor. It may be possible to reprogram the video hardware directly to get a VGA 80-column true-color mode, but anyone who does this is playing with fire at this point, since Atari has said that they do not plan to document the video hardware. The human animal is remarkably adaptable and resilient. I'm sure there will be some rare individuals who can tolerate the Falcon's flicker, just as some people can sleep on a bed of nails or walk on hot coals. - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 173 Mon Mar 29, 1993 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 18:53 EST If noone mentioned it, I upload alittle program that kicks the 640x480 (x400?) Falcon mode up about 20khz... Imcompatible with a few programs, but makes for a much better, flicker free, display. A number of people on comp.sys.atari.st swear by it. Check it out... Called 78SYNC or something like that... Not too old. Just search for my name as uploader, and Falcon for a keyword. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 174 Mon Mar 29, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 21:17 EST If you have a monitor such as the NEC 3D that will work in ST or VGA modes, you will only need one monitor for all modes on the Falcon030. For VGA modes, I'm using a NEC 3D straight into the Falcon VGA adaptor. For ST modes, I'm using the the NEC 3D into a "ST to VGA adaptor cable" connected to the Falcon ST adaptor. It should not be a big deal to come up with a single adaptor with a switch to select either mode. Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 175 Mon Mar 29, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:43 EST Let me see if I've got this straight: True-color w/80 columns is only possible on an Atari SC monitor, but you wouldn't want to use it for productivity because of excessive flicker. Does that mean that ANY 80 column mode on an Atari SC monitor, for instance pseudo Monochrome Hi-rez, or 80 columns with 256 colors (is there such a mode?), will also suffer from the same excessive flicker? What if you're using an NEC-3D? Will you still get excessive flicker if you're in true-color 80 column mode or pseudo Monochrome Hi-rez? In other words, when the NEC is emulating an Atari SC, does the emulation include the SC's flicker? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 176 Mon Mar 29, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 21:55 EST Ron, How much does the NEC 3D monitor cost? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= David, >> Does that mean that ANY 80 column mode on an Atari SC monitor, >> for instance pseudo Monochrome Hi-rez, or 80 columns with 256 >> colors (is there such a mode?), will also suffer from the same >> excessive flicker? Yes, that's right; you can get ST high resolution and 640x480x256 modes on an SC1224 but they both suffer from the same flicker as true-color mode. Any Falcon screen mode that uses interlacing (i.e. has a vertical resolution greater than 200) flickers on an SC1224. - Charles ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 177 Mon Mar 29, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:04 EST Is it just me, or does it seem like the dialog to set falcon resolutions is intentionally vague, so that a casual observer wouldn't really see the limitations of the video hardware? It could just be co-incidence, though. ___________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 178 Mon Mar 29, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 22:42 EST Charles, USA Flex (800-444-4900) has new NEC 3D's with a 2 year warranty advertised at $459. "Referb" NEC 3D monitors are $399. The NEC 3D "remembers" and automatically resets screen sizing when you change modes and is known for looking good even in ST monochrome mode. Any VGA monitor compatible with the old CGA 15KHz sweep rate should also work in the Falcon030 ST modes. To reduce flicker on the SC1224, give SUPER78 a try from the lib's. The higher refresh rate goes a long way toward making the ST interlace mode usable. How's Warp9 for the Falcon030 doing? Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 179 Mon Mar 29, 1993 J.RENNER1 [Jim] at 23:08 EST Charles, a good way to reduce the flicker when viewing interlaced mode it to wear a pair of polarized sunglasses. If you feel too strange in them you can buy a polarized filter to stick on the front of the monitor. They have been around since the Amiga was introduced. They cost about $15. Jim. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 180 Mon Mar 29, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:59 EST John Russell is NOT at CeBit, he's in Ca, so call anytime. The area code is 510 not 415 anymore. I know what you mean Charles, I understand that some humans can withstand huge doses of neutron radiation too ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 181 Tue Mar 30, 1993 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 00:25 EST Sheldon.. Have you seen the NEW under $2000 486 stuff.. your wrong .. 16bit color is standard on most ALL the Local Bus video out there.. with 24bit on some of the better systems.. (and the Falcon030 is barely under $2000 in any usable form)... NON-INTERLACED to boot!! Al.. SVGA does not necessarily mean GOOD!!! a great monitor with the sharpness and detail (like my SM124) is gonna cost ya for some time now.. Sean.. NO!! not a plant.. honest!! just a person dealing in the Market place on a day to day basis.. and YOUR RIGHT about the programable Falcon Video... it has definite possibilities!! BUT ... what you have to add externally to the Falcon030 is NOT what the customers sees or readily deals with outa-the-box!! I am kinda playing devils advocate to WAKE-UP Atari and it's marketing crew to what kind of competition is REALLY out there!! IT'S BIG and with stated Falcon030 specs/price/performance.. well.. NOT A CHANCE.... I Know Atari knows this.. and it is MY theory this is the REAL reason for the delay.. My guess is the real Falcon030 will be a superior system to the one we are talking about here.. IT HAS TO BE!! Charles.. SEE!! The Codehead is RIGHT.. you need TWO MONITORS to be happy with the Falcon.. this is STUPID!! and adds yet MORE expense to the Falcon030 that other competitors won't and don't need.. STUPID... If you think I am hard on the Falcon030 wait till' the competition gets hold of 'em.. 'cause great sound alone won't carry 'er through.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 182 Tue Mar 30, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 01:26 EST D.ENGEL - It's NOT very attractive! Like I've said before, looking at an interlaced GEM desktop on an SC1224/SC1435 (actually, I saw it on a Magnavox 1CM35, which is the same as the SC1435, only better) is one of the most annoying things you'll ever see on a monitor. It looked JUST AS BAD as what the STE Screen Height Doubler program (DOUBLE.PRG or DOUBLE2.PRG) does for medium resolution. For pictures, though, it wasn't too bad. I'm GUESSING that the Falcon's interlacing shows alternate fields on the same lines because that's the impression I got from discussions I've had with others about it. By the way, I've heard 2 or 3 reports now in the past 2 days that AT LEAST TWO DEALERS HAVE DEMO FALCON030's in their stores. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 183 Tue Mar 30, 1993 MUSE [Tomas] at 02:16 EST I've think I've been through this "flicker-flack" somewhere on another platform. Charles isn't kidding, you probably will want to avoid the modes that flicker. We'll have to compromise and either stock up on aspirin or reserve those resolutions for "special needs." I look at the Falcon/SC1224 combo as the way to get to get the most Falcon for the buck. From what I have seen, you don't have to get a new monitor right away. You may want to, but you don't _have_ to. Your current color monitor will give you, I believe, more display choices than a VGA monitor. Some are more painful than pleasing, however. Besides, there will _always_ be some new resolution for which you must invest in more hardware, it's the law! ===Tomas=== March 29, 1993 @ 9:19:45 pm PST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 184 Tue Mar 30, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:03 EST Charles, NEC 3D monitors are long out of production, but they have been turning up in discounters' warehouses; apparently NEC cleared out its stock of both unsold 3Ds and refurbished ones. I've seen prices of $350-$400 for refurbished models in Computer $hopper. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 185 Tue Mar 30, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:21 EST Sounds to me like my present set up of an SM124 and a SC1224 with Monitor Master might serve me pretty well on the Falcon! (At least until I get an NEC- 3D.) But I still haven't heard an answer as to whether the NEC-3D flickers in 80-column True Color Mode. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 186 Tue Mar 30, 1993 D.JOHNSON143 [Eric Blair] at 09:33 EST Al, Dan and others --Thanks for the help on MultiTos, etc. I'll call JRI this week. Eric ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 187 Tue Mar 30, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 15:49 EST Jim, Hmm, I thought John was there. I know his Genlock is being showed there since someone online mentioned it. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 188 Tue Mar 30, 1993 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 22:33 EST so it the 30th.. how many demo Falcons have shipped? Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 189 Tue Mar 30, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:59 EST Steve-J I'm not sure which is sillier... 1) Designing a computer with VERY annoying flicker in Industy Standard graphics modes. or 2) Keeping the registers in the video hardware UNDOCUMENTED, so that nobody can do anything to fix #1. Your thoughts? ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 190 Tue Mar 30, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:46 EST Dan, nope. Bill took a couple Genlocks with him to display in the Atari booth, John's at home fixing MiniCoopers ;-) Hey, maybe ICD could be talked into porting thier FlickerFreeVideo product to the Falcon, it's a real life saver on the Amiga ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 191 Wed Mar 31, 1993 R.JONES82 [Bob Jones] at 01:39 EST Charles, Have you tried a multisync with the falcon? If so, will it display all the true color modes? Also how does the VGA 640x480 compare to using a atari sm124 monochrome for DTP? I would like to avoid having to use two monitors if possible. Bob... Ron, The trouble is it's difficult to obtain the NEC 3Ds ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 192 Wed Mar 31, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 03:15 EST Charles-------> I wouldn't say just ST low on a VGA. You can get 320x480x65000 on a VGA. Not as good as 640x480 but a good improvement over ST Low! :) Do the interlaced 80 column modes flicker on a Television as bad as on the SC1224? I assume the longer persistance phosphers help? Ron @ Explorer ---------> I belive the Falcon uses 31khz for the ST Compatible modes, not 15khz, so a CGA compatible monitor IS NOT required. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken! ----------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 193 Wed Mar 31, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 05:50 EST FAIRWEATHER - True Color w/ 80 columns is only possible (via the OS) on the 80- column ST/TV modes (640x200 or 640x400 interlaced). The flicker only comes in interlaced mode, so if you want True Color w/ 80 columns and no flicker, you're stuck with 640x200. Likewise, if you want ANY number of colors (2- 65,536) in 80 columns and no flicker (in an ST/TV mode), you're stuck w/ 640x200. If you use a ST mono monitor (or, like you asked, an NEC 3D w/ an appropriate adaptor), you can still get normal ST hi-rez (640x400 mono) w/o flicker (actually, even BETTER than normal since it has a 70Hz refresh rate rather than 60Hz). If you want anything higher than 640x200 (in up to 256 colors) w/o flicker, you'll need to hook up the NEC 3D to the VGA adaptor and use VGA mode. J.RICHTER - You DON'T NEED two monitors for the Falcon030. If *I* did, it would probably be an NEC 3D and a ST mono monitor. In all cases, a multisync/multiscan monitor w/ the proper specs should be fine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 194 Wed Mar 31, 1993 CODEHEAD [Charles] at 11:37 EST Bob Jones, No; like most Atari users I don't own a multisync monitor. If a multisync monitor is required to avoid flicker in true-color modes, the effective price of the Falcon just went up quite a bit, because multisyncs start at about $500. (If you're happy with a refurbished, discontinued model as Ron suggested, you can get that down to about $400, but that's still a pretty hefty chunk of money.) I guess it was naive of me to expect good results from one of these three Atari monitors (SC1224, SM124, and PTC1426) that I already own. If you're happy working in ST resolutions, you'll get along fine with an ST monitor; but if you want to use true-color without getting a headache, it looks like you'll need to buy a new monitor. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Sam, If I'm going to work in a 40-column mode (something which I avoid as much as possible) I'd rather use ST low resolution than 320x480 mode with its bizarre flattened aspect ratio. My opinion is that 320x480 mode is one of the Falcon's most useless video modes. - Charles @ CodeHead Tech Wednesday, March 31, 1993 8:22 am ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 195 Wed Mar 31, 1993 HISOFT at 12:10 EST Well I'VE got a monitor that will do all the Falcon modes. I know because I've tried them. Its a multi-sync that was supplied as an SVGA with a Gateway2000 system nearly 4 years ago. What you need is a mult-sync that'll sync down to CGA (aka ST) frequencies. If you've got a multi-sync that works with the ST and does VGA it should work fine with the Falcon. Unfortunately most modern monitors only want to go to the faster frequencies that SVGAs generally want. Owners of modern Amigas have the same "problem" Dave Nutkins, HiSoft. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 196 Wed Mar 31, 1993 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 17:45 EST No problem Eric. Dan Ah. Thanks for the info Jim. ;-) Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 197 Wed Mar 31, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 20:47 EST Atari should release the information on the video hardware to developers so that what I think as inadequacies (SP?) can be fixed by 3rd party folks like what was done with Warp 9. If 3rd party can get better resolutions with software, why didn't Atari provide this in their software to begin with? Sounds like Atari went the cheap route with the graphics also. If you cannot get anything higher than 640 X 200 without flicker, then it's a shame as this is below the abilities of other platforms. They will simply blow it away and with a DSP card thrown into a clone, there is nothing the Falcon has to offer for the NEW consumer looking to purchase a computer. Again, Atari falls behind in the graphics department. They really need to concentrate on this area as it is more important to more people than sound. Atari has always been behind in the graphics area. I have seen some really nice displays from clones that simply cannot be outdone by an Atari computer. The first time buyer WILL consider this when purchasing a computer. The photo realistic displays on the clones I have seen are fantastic. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 198 Wed Mar 31, 1993 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 21:31 EST Anyone care to bet some virtual money on whether the Falcon will be for sale anywhere in the US before May 1? No fair waiting for Dateline Atari tomorrow. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 199 Wed Mar 31, 1993 L.TRAPANI [Lou][Machine] at 22:41 EST Wayne Watson, > If you cannot get anything higher than 640 X 200 without > flicker, then it's a shame as this is below the abilities of other > platforms. It is not the Falcon that is the trouble here, it is the monitor. You can get 640 x 480 with 256 colors without flicker, just not on the Atari color monitors is what I think was being pointed out. With a SVGA montior it should be no problem and thus you get some good graphics that you may see on some other platforms. --Lou T.-- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 200 Wed Mar 31, 1993 J.RENNER1 [Jim] at 22:43 EST Wayne, The highest flicker free mode on the SC1224 is 640x200. Although with overscan that might be larger. Using a multisync you have access to 640x400 (ST HI) 640x480 (TT MED) and more. Atari is far from behind in the graphics arena. If anyone is looking for a monitor to use on the Falcon the best choice is a multisync that will sync from 15.75-31.5+ (as Dave Nutkins said) This will give you access to all video mode, overscan, true color and flicker free high res. These monitor are harder to find with MAC IIs and PCs using 31.5+ frequencies but i have even seen some 17" monitors in the $1000 range that still support the lower frequencies. The reason that Atari decided to use the lower frequencies (i am assuming) is for NTSC compatibility. Overscanning is posssible in NTSC, and Genlocks/Other video hardware will be cheaper and easier to build. Jim. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 201 Wed Mar 31, 1993 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 22:45 EST J.Richter ----------> If we stop for a few moments, take a deep breath, step back and look at the situation, lets see what we see. Atari CLAIMS that the Falcon is aimed at the FIRST TIME computer buying home user. Of course, the only way to aim a product at a certain market group is advertising. Now, people who do not own computers are not on GEnie. They didn't attend CEbit. They don't go to BCS meetings. Therefore: To sell the Falcon to Atari's stated market, they MUST ADVERTISE. Now, I assume you own a computer. I own a computer. Does anyone here NOT own a computer? OK. We can assume that WE are NOT the intended market for this version of the Falcon. That does't mean that we can't buy one, of course. BUT, try to put yourself in the intended market's place for a moment. You are NOT a computer guru. You may not have even sat down at a computer and touched a keyboard before. You don't know a '286 from a '486. You don't know that the most important part of the computer is the software. Put yourself in the buyers shoes, and don't look at this version of Falcon with a prejudiced eye and I think you may like what you see. A small case that can fit just about anywhere. Able to hook up to a TV. CD quality stereo sound. Photo quality graphics. All things that the general public can relate to. All things that NO other PC or MAC offer at the same price. YOU may know that a PC can do those things if properly equipped, and at a similar price, but what of the ignorant masses? So, can you still deny that the Falcon is a good value in the eyes of the first time computer buyer? I think people like Sheldon will be VERY successful in selling these things. But, as I said before, Atari MUST advertise this beast. My suggestion would be a spot on the Rush Limbaugh radio and TV show. With inflation, that was probably my 5 cents worth. ------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 202 Wed Mar 31, 1993 B.AEIN [B Man] at 23:20 EST J.Richter, ! opps 1. We don't need to pay to read your praises of Klones Please post elsewhere if you want to talk about Clones!!!!!!!!!!Please 2. Your messages are not going to make Atari hold back the Falcon so they can spend 2 years revamping it so it will be even further behind the market when it finally comes out, competing with the Power PC. 3. Do you have a thing for !'s? Hope Bob will have good news friday. Bman ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 203 Thu Apr 01, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWP] at 01:04 EST All: Toad has responded to the call of the ultimate monitor and they do offer one for all! Now where did I write those numbers .28 dot pitch for $439 .39 dot pitch for $279 Well, down goes yet another complain about the Falcon. Sean Dougherty Two Worlds Publishing ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 204 Thu Apr 01, 1993 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 01:06 EST You know, I was just going to post a message to the contrary, but after thinking about it, it is ridiculous that the Falcon can't do 640x480x65k on a VGA monitor. An $80 PC card can do this, and for a little over $100 you're up to 16.7m colors, non-interlaced (let's not even get into higher resolution modes). 640x480x256 will be fine for productivity and viewing GIFs, but I, for one, enjoy viewing some of the JPEG pictures available in the Photo Library in their full 24-bit glory. Won't be able to do that on a Falcon... at least not this model. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 205 Thu Apr 01, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 02:17 EST Ok, I thought you all were saying the highest non flicker resolution was 640 X 200. I crawl back into my corner now. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 206 Thu Apr 01, 1993 STEVE-J [FunkPopARoll] at 02:35 EST FAIRWEATHER - Yes, the display WILL FLICKER using 640x400 interlaced on ANY monitor (SC1224, SC1435, NEC 3D, etc.). That's all due to the interlacing, NOT the monitor used. D.ENGEL - 640x400 isn't exactly an "Industry Standard" graphics mode. SAM-RAPP - The "ST compatibility modes" on the Falcon030 are ONLY WITH A VGA MONITOR (so you can display 320x200, 640x200, and 640x400 resolutions on a VGA monitor, although I haven't gotten it clear if these are limited to 16, 4, and 2 colors, respectively, or if you can also use up to 16-bit True Color in 320x200 and 256 colors in 640x200 and 640x400). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 207 Thu Apr 01, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:09 EST Charles, $430 for the ADI MultiScan 15-inch that I have. That was the discount price. Funk, Yes, actually 640X400 IS an industry standard mode. It is used by many DOS laptops, and is one of the modes available in Windows. Al ------------