==================================================================== (C) 1993 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== ************ Topic 41 Tue Dec 22, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 20:08 EST Sub: FALCON 030 - Help and Questions Ask here if you need help or have a technical question to ask about the FALCON 030 computer. This topic is designed to inform users about the FALCON and discuss it CURRENT details and characteristics. 215 message(s) total. ************ ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 1 Tue Dec 22, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 20:08 EST Hi all! I have started this topic solely for those people who want to ask questions regarding the present specifications and compatibility of the FALCON. If you own a FALCON then please post pertinent information here. If you want to know specifics about the FALCON please post. However, if you want to know why it doesn't have a built in dishwasher, etc. then please post in cat 18. Thanks and keep posting!!!!!! *******Brian********* Written on Tuesday 22 December 1992 at 09:04 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 2 Tue Dec 22, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 21:25 EST OOps... looks like I put my last post in the wrong topic, you gonna move it to 18 or can you relocate it here? Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 3 Tue Dec 22, 1992 G.ANDERSON (Forwarded) Note: this post DOES cover a technical aspect of the Falcon .. Someone was asking about using a European Falcon here in the States. Bob B. mentioned that the powersupply might not be able to adapt to US current, as most European systems run on (I think) 220VAC/50Hz he is right, you would have to change the power supplies before even plugging the thing in. He also mentioned the fact that 'some' software looks for US ROMs before running, this could also be a problem. Add in the fact that unless you managed to get an English 'Bird' your desktop would be in German, French, or what have you.... for must of us this could be a problem . The final problem, and this could be critical depending on what you're planning on doing with your bird, is the Video output. I don't have access to the tech docs for the Falcon, but I am assuming that the VGA output of a European unit would be compatible with the VGA output of an American unit... I 'think' the VGA spects are universial... However, if you're trying to use the RF or Composite output to a TV set then forget it unless you also have a European or multi-system TV set. American units use the NTSC system (60hz refresh) while European systems are strictly PAL (50hz refresh). There are also other differences but I don't recall them right now. In short, you can NOT use a European Falcon for video display on an American TV set without mods to the video shifter system and/or an external adapter (anyone know of such a beast?). Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I thought you'd want to know in advance. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 4 Tue Dec 22, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 22:37 EST Gregg, This is a new topic just for questions, etc. You didn't post in the wrong topic since this topic is too new for you to know. Please keep posting. Merry Christmas/Joyeux Noel/ *******Brian********* Written on Tuesday 22 December 1992 at 11:19 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 5 Tue Dec 22, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 23:58 EST .. replys to questions asked in old Falcon 030 topic... T-Bird, I'm already working with developers on compatibility testing. Catch me in e-mail if you have something specific in mind. GFA basic stuff seems to all work so far. Peter, nice to see we're helping out. I'm heading out for vacation after Christmas and half regretting it, I want to play! :-) The computer will be loaned to a local developer who's doing some Photo CD work. He is on GEnie and perhaps he'll stop on by while I'm gone and let you know what he thinks. D.Shore, the standard issue Atari Disk utilities were on the disks that arrived with this loaner. Of course that could change at any time. Greg, you are right, there are definately NTSC and PAL versions of the Falcon. You need a US unit to use it on a US TV. Sean, Falcon030 seemed to work great with the ST sound software I tried. The internal speaker is *loud* and sound great for a built-in speaker. The fan is noise is noticable (the fan is a small PCB mount critter) but makes less noise than my MSTe. The computer only gets a little warm to the touch, I'd say definately cooler than the 1040ST. The surface mount board (_very_ clean design!) leaves lots of space between the chips for cooling, and everything does run cool. The IDE drive is probably the largest heat generator and I'd guess it is less than 5 watts. Getting to the insides is relatively easy. There is a top shield that pops off after removing a dozen screws. You then have easy access to the hard drive, power supply, floppy drive, expansion slot, FPU socket (under power supply), TOS ROM <-one chip!) and RAM board. Shouldn't take more than ten or fifteen minutes to get to anything and have things back together. I see lots of opportunity for hardware hacking - maybe even adding RCA jacks :-). All - thanks for the great questions the assists on colors and resolutions. I was having a heck of a time counting all the pixels on the screen :-/ Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 7 Wed Dec 23, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 01:24 EST Gregg, language on the Falcon is not an issue. Several languages are built into ROM. You run a little installation program which identifies the language you want to see in your operating system instructions, and voila! you have it! The computer figures out what voltage is coming at it and automatically adjusts; the only concern would be whether your power cord will fit the outlet in a foreign country, and extra power cords are easy enough to come by. As for the video, VGA shouldn't be a problem...but tv could be. My Falcon was designed for use with a German tv, and it has a PAL chip. Now, I don't understand the reasons behind all this, but I have heard of another stateside dev simply changing some crystal in the same kind of unit and he was able then to use US tvs. As a linguist who has reason from time to time to run in languages other than English, I really appreciate the Falcon's approach to language. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 8 Wed Dec 23, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 02:23 EST Bob, I need a Falcon by the first week of February, does that sound feasable? Notice the word 'feasable' I'm not looking for a definate yes or no just more one or the other.:-) I'd second the motion for buying one now without the software. I'd even pay extra to have the software shipped later. Couldn't you have a special category for business's that need it now but aren't developers?:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 10 Wed Dec 23, 1992 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 22:20 EST Ron: Thank you about the heat information. That's great that it actually runs cooler than a 1040...that should extend the life of it... Happy Holidays! Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 11 Wed Dec 23, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:55 EST Dot: Are you _sure_ that the Falcon030 will recognize various the various power standards from around the world and automatically adjust? If anyone has the docs or even a lable on the back, can they read off the input voltages? I suspect that it might say "AC input 110-250V", or words to that effect. It's pretty simple to design what's called an "Offline Switching Supply" which would really be a cool supply. I mean it would be 'cool' as in cold, AND 'cool' as in 'The Fonz'! "Offline switchers run cool, and provide LOTS of power! Yay! I could guess how much power it could supply, but I'd have to _see_ inside a Falcon030 to do it. Some countries use DC power, which would toast an offline switcher (and most other supplies) so I don't think it can adjust to power an _any_ country. As long as it works HERE, who cares? ;-) ______________________ \hunderbird P.S. Caution: if it DOES use an offline switcher, watch out for the LETHAL voltages if you're poking around inside. You should ALWAYS unplug these things before opening them. Lotsa amps and lotsa volts in them (more volts than you put into it, in most cases). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 12 Wed Dec 23, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 22:59 EST Thunderbird, I've learned not to be sure of anything, but I was told that it does this trick. It came with a German power cord. I supplied a US power cord and voila! power on! My husband is our technician. I don't plug in open stuff, and he is a _careful_ technician. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 13 Thu Dec 24, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:53 EST Yes, that is becoming standard for power supplies. Both Mac hard disks I own have universal suplies, as does my Mac Classic, and the high power replacement supply I include with Turbo030's also is universal. So I'd expect it to run on 100-240Volts, 50-60Hz....all you need is the requisite power cord. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 14 Thu Dec 24, 1992 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 03:18 EST Dorethy: > a problem...but tv could be. My Falcon was designed for use with a > German tv, and it has a PAL chip. Now, I don't understand the reasons > behind all this, but I have heard of another stateside dev simply > changing some crystal in the same kind of unit and he was able then to > use US tvs. It's more than a chrystal (and I'm looking now in the Bill Of Material), it's a modulator, several resistors, several capacitors, several coils and a oscillator. It's a lot of work and some parts are critical. Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 15 Thu Dec 24, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 03:58 EST Thanks for the clarification, Wilfred. I have the recipe from a post on the internet somewhere around this office. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 16 Thu Dec 24, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 05:51 EST Dot: I'm still suspicious that the Falcon030 can handle DC power _and_ AC power. I suppose it's not really that big a deal, since DC power is not as common as AC, and we all have AC anyways. Also, I was just reminding everyone not to poke around inside the Falcon030... especially if it has an offline switching supply. Those are nasty beasts. I wouldn't want it on my conscience if one of you got toasted because you were trying to answer a question about the Falcon030's "guts" I asked. ;-) _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 17 Thu Dec 24, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 10:08 EST Thunderbird: NOT DC/AC: European/US. Two different types of AC. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 18 Thu Dec 24, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 12:28 EST Where did DC come into it? 110V 60Hz AC in the USA and 220V 50Hz AC in Europe. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 19 Thu Dec 24, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 15:59 EST Dot/Jim: There still are countries around the world who use DC as their household power. It would be nice if they could use a Falcon030 too. I designed modifications for my employer so that his products will function there. Also, I looked into various switching power supplies, and it _IS_ possible to make one that works off of ~100 to ~250 Volts, AC _AND_ DC!!! What does the Falcon booklet say? ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 20 Thu Dec 24, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 18:38 EST It says: "After you connect the monitor and mouse, use the following instructions to connect the power cable. "1. Connect the power cable's female end to the three-pronged socket on the back of the system. "2. Plug the power cable's male end into a power source, such as a surge protector plugged into a power outlet." I have a feeling this is one of those features which will be invisible to the user and therefore there is no need to elaborate in the owner's manual. But I know we are not talking about DC. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 21 Thu Dec 24, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 20:41 EST The label on the Falcon030 here is rated for 117 VAC, 60 Hz, 1 amp. The label is obviously set up for UL so there may be other power capabilities. -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 22 Thu Dec 24, 1992 J.FOY2 [JLF] at 21:24 EST What should a monitor for Falcon have???? Frequencies,pixels(x,y),percistance,bits? or colors Analog right?? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 23 Thu Dec 24, 1992 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 21:46 EST The power supply for the STacy would automatically detect US or European power. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 24 Thu Dec 24, 1992 J.LYONS16 [JPL] at 23:02 EST I realize that Bob asked us to direct questions about individual software packages to the vendors, but since WordUp is no longer supported......Has anyone tried to run WordUp on a Falcon? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 25 Fri Dec 25, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:53 EST The ST BOOK has a universal power supply as well. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 28 Fri Dec 25, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:03 EST Tbird, Where is DC still used? This is interesting. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 29 Sat Dec 26, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 11:10 EST Hey! Did anyone successfully download the GIF's of the Falcon030 desktop (FALCON_S.LZH)??? When I try to extract it, I get a "Bad Table" error when extracting the second of the two files. I tried several versions of LHARC, and downloaded it again with no luck. I really think the file on GEnie might be bogus, because it shows up with a file size of over 75K. For 2 GIF files (the first of which extracts successfully to about 22K uncompressed) that seems like a little steep. The download description says that the LZH contains only 2 GIFs, so that would mean that the second file compressed would have to be about 53K in size, to account for the 75K LZH size. This all seems bogus to me. Has anyone had any luck with the file? If so, what version of LHARC works on it, and what file sizes do you get? If it really _is_ a bogus file, I suggest that someone take it from the D/L area and extract the one good file, re-archive it, and put it back. That way, people like me wouldn't waste a D/L time of 75K (twice) to try and get at a 22K file. (Waah! I wanna refund!) :-) Thanks. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 30 Sat Dec 26, 1992 T.STARACE1 at 12:03 EST Can anyone tell me if those mulitsync monitors they sell for use on the ST (like the ACER 7015 or the TOAD Multisync Etc.) will work on the Falcon and how well? Are these just regular VGA monitors with adaptor boxes so they can be used on a regualr ST? From what I understand (not much), you could probably plug one of those multisync monitors right into the Falcon. Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 31 Sat Dec 26, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 13:55 EST Can anyone with a Falcon or knows about it answer these two important questions: 1) Is there a monitor made anywhere which is capable of displaying ALL of the Falcon030 resolutions? I want a monitor which will be able to show the VGA 640x480x256 mode for productivity programs, and I want to be able to use the same monitor for the ST compatability modes, and then use it for the interlaced "true color" modes possibly with overscan (for games and artistic programs). Can an existing monitor do this?? 2) Can the colors of the various gadgets on the new desktop be altered to siut the tastes of the user? I think Windoze uses color effectively to highlight "active" windows and such, so I was wondering if the ability carried over from the STe to the F030, as the F030 screenshots all have the gadgets the same color as each other. I hope the default desktop color IS NOT that sickly green color that my ST boots up in, and the default resolution IS NOT 320x200x16 anymore. Nothing like booting up and having the boot messages in those low rez blocky characters to turn a potential user off. ________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 32 Sat Dec 26, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 14:54 EST I had the same problem with the GIFs. But the first file extracted OK and I was able to view it with Photochrome. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 33 Sat Dec 26, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 16:28 EST Sounds like a lot of people are getting a bogus file. Unless we are supposed to be using some other LZH extractor which I don't have. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 34 Sat Dec 26, 1992 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 16:44 EST I had the same exact problem...I figured something had gone wrong with my disk, since I used Zmodem, and had a error correcting connection. I think a refund is in order...since we only got 22k from a 72k archive! Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 35 Sat Dec 26, 1992 B.DETTERICH at 18:18 EST I don't recall seeing quest./ans. re similarity between the Falcon and the TT. Is there ultimately a plan to add the requisite parts to the TT family? Also, John Langner (WB2OSZ) pub'd an article a year or two ago about an easy way to ham radio slow scan color tv using an ST. The latest issue of QST (enthusiast magazine) had another article by him for a fairly complex board that allows a PC with VGA to do same/bit better. Question is: does John know of the Falcon capability? The DSPould (plus the A- D/D-A) make the Falcon an even easier adaptation. I have John's mail address, but just wondering if he still frequents this area or if anyone comm.'s with him regularly. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 36 Sat Dec 26, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:55 EST Sean: Yeah, I d/l'ed it TWICE because I thought the first one was corrupt! Thank god that PhotoChrome lets you scroll the 320x200 window over the 640x480 GIF file! That original 16 color Degas picture uploaded before from the 320x200 desktop was not all that impressive. Now that I can see the 'scale' with the scrolling view of PhotoChrome, it looks great! The only thing I noticed was that the desktop really didn't appear to have all that many colors used out of the 256. Was the desktop shown the 'default' desktop with 'default' colors? Being an artist, I have big plans for customizing the icons, etc. for really nice effects. Can you imagine a desktop with the look and feel of a "Star Trek: The Next Generation" computer? How about a "H.R. Geiger" style desktop? The desktop shown also was hard to distinguish what, if any, items were 'selected'. I hope it is really configurable! ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 37 Sat Dec 26, 1992 D.BOWMAN9 [DAVE B] at 20:22 EST T-Bird, (no slur intended on the name) I also had a problem with the 2nd file. and Fix a GIF did not fix it. later, dave b 11:54:08 am, Saturday, December 26, 1992 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 38 Sat Dec 26, 1992 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 20:55 EST Same here... The first GIF extracted fine, but not the second one. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 39 Sat Dec 26, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 20:57 EST So one of the GIFs is bad? So it is not my system having problem but the file! Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 40 Sun Dec 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 00:43 EST I'm pretty sure that the LZH is corrupt. I get an error when extracting the 2nd file. The size of the LZH is 75K which seems way too much considering the file that extracts fine is only 22K. The 2nd file (considering it is of a similar subject) should be about the same, bringing the size of the LZH to about 44K. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 41 Sun Dec 27, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 06:05 EST T-Bird, TOS 2.06 and 3.06 already allows you to change the Window colors so I would Guess the Falcon does too. I viewed the first GIF at 640x480x256 and it looked pretty good. Hopefully, they'll release TOS 4.00 for the TT before long. The second GIF is fried.:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 42 Sun Dec 27, 1992 LEPULLEY [Lloyd Pulley] at 09:45 EST I've found a similar (same?) 'bug' in LZH20x recently. If you ADD a file to an already existing .LZH file, sometimes the resulting file is considerably larger than it should be. In one case I added a 300k (non-compressed) file to a 625k (compressed) file and got a 1100k LZHed file. If I compressed both files at the same time, the resulting file was only 780k. It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen. Lloyd E. Pulley, Sr. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 43 Sun Dec 27, 1992 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 11:27 EST Here are three questions that should be easy enough... If the Falcon030 is in a case similar to the color of the TT, what color will the mouse and other Atari-made equipment be? Has that nasty RTS/CTS fiasco been resolved yet, and can I get a port rate of 57.6kbps? (I'll even take 37.6kbps) Okay, Atari has an agreement for the PhotoCD, but how many CD-ROMs drives and CDs are there for the ST/STe/TT/Falcon? Is it a good investment for a home user when you can only use PhotoCD on it for now? A multimedia encyclopedia might be a good idea (one that would blow the socks off Microsoft's). Even better would be if the CD-ROM could play music CDs through the Falcon's sound hardware. D.ENGEL: You're right the icons in the GIF are kind of bland, but are much better than my B/W NeoDesk icons! As for the active icons, I would imagine after using the Falcon for a while it would become apparent which were active, but it would be much better if there was a distinct difference, even if it were a black border around a selected icon. And will an icon editor be available that we won't have to pay for? I believe in capitolism but $15-$20 for an icon editor is a bit much. I just might write a shareware version if I can find out the structure of the file. Just how would one turn a 256 color icon into a 16/4 or 2 color icon? And what of the wierd aspect ratios of 640x200 or 320x400? You would need different icons for those aspect ratios obviously, and wouldn't that require seperate files? Is that 64k limit still there? That could prove rather limiting if more than 8 sets of icons had to be in one file! Anyone at Atari: How much longer will we have to wait? I've kept people ready to buy IBM compatibles in September still tempted to buy Falcons, but I can't keep telling them "Real Soon Now". That might work for the people that know how good Atari is but the "others" aren't very amused. I don't care if you say it won't be until March...just give us a date, month, anything to work with! We're talking about a computer that is *two months* late. (I'm not really complaining, it is just frustrating to tell people "it's much better computer than a compatible" and "I don't know when it'll be available" in the same discussion, it gives them this vaporware "it's all in his mind" thing) I think I won't ask so many questions in the next message... :) Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 44 Sun Dec 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 11:54 EST Sean: I think someone from Atari said that the RTS/CTS fiasco had been sorted out and that the RS-232 hardware was totally reworked in the Falcon030. I don't recall the specific maximum baud rate stated, but I know it was at least 38,400. I think it would be truly awesome if the CD-ROM could paly a music CD through the Falcon030's audio system. I don't know enough about CD-ROM's to make a call on that one. I suspect that since it would be reall hard to do on a PC, that it might not be supported by the drives themselves. In the very least, the audio of the CD-ROM player could be patched into the analog input of the F030, where the audio could be massaged by the DSP, etc. for playback on the speakers connected to the Falcon030. It _would_ be nice if the digital music could be played "direct from disk". The GIF desktop icons are not so much of 'bland' (I kind of like the floppy and the joystick), but some of the others have really obnoxious loud color schemes which make it hard for the new user to figure out what might be happening (selected). With 256 colors, a really nice looking system could be made where the Icons were nice renditions of the actual objects (like the floppy), and the selected icons would be in bright/bold shades of the unselected versions, which would be subdued color shades. These, of course, are pure matters of taste, and as long as there's a Falcon030 Icon editor, everyone can customize their desktop to what they like. I believe that the 64K limit is gone, so that multiple sets of Icons could be made for the various resolutions. How do you suppose they can support "ST Monochrome" and "16 bit true color" in the same machine then? That brings up an intresting question: in ST Mono Mode, do all the nifty 3-D effects go away from the desktop? Or are the various "shades" simulated with "dithering" of the pixels" _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 45 Sun Dec 27, 1992 MUSE [Tomas] at 12:40 EST Thunderbird, In ST high, the 3-D buttons are still there. The button does a wierd one- pixel shift to the right (lower-right?) not the usual edge-shading kind of thing we are used to seeing on other systems. ===Tomas=== Sunday, December 27, 1992 9:31:08 am ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 46 Sun Dec 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 12:58 EST MUSE: Thanks for the description. I think I can imagine what it looks like. My guess is that with 640x480x256 with no flicker, that most people will only use the ST compatability modes only when the absolutely _have_ to. It's good to see them there, though. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 47 Sun Dec 27, 1992 J.FRENCH2 [James French] at 13:25 EST Atari: Are there plans for supporting Cyrillic and/or Kanji characters in a future ROM? Or maybe there is a way it can be implemented now? I know the new ROMS allow one to switch between languages. Perhaps additional ones can be loaded from disk? To all: Has anyone run Notator 3.1 (or a later version that I have perhaps not received yet) on a Falcon? Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 48 Sun Dec 27, 1992 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 16:26 EST James French: Notator doesn't run on a Falcon, according to their dutch distributor a notator version for Falcon030 and all other atari's (including TT with 19" monochroom) will come out in march 1993. Cubase 3.01 does work on a Falcon030. I have it running on my machine, it runs on ST-High (on my VGA monitor) and it runs on 640x480 in 2 colors (this is fun since you can have more tracks on your screen). Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 49 Sun Dec 27, 1992 S.WINICK at 19:05 EST James, Cubase 3.01 also works great on a TT030 (at twice the spped of a Falcon), and looks especially great on the 19" TTM195 large screen monitor. I have quite a few studios that are using that combination. ;-] Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 50 Sun Dec 27, 1992 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 20:05 EST About the European machines: it looks like only the TV support will be lacking over here. Does that concern only the R/F modulator? Will the composite video output of the Falcon work on North American TV/monitor style (using the video input jack)?? Thanks, Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 51 Sun Dec 27, 1992 D.SHORR at 21:19 EST Thunderbird, I remember reading somewhere(can't remember where) that the desktop program would only display 16 colors max. As soon as the CodeHeads fix Warp 9 so we can use a background pic again, I guess we'll all know the answer;). The latest STReport states that the Falcon and SLM laser printers don't 'get along'. Anyone lucky enough to have both a Falcon and an SLM(AND a device to connect them) care to comment? Dave ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 52 Sun Dec 27, 1992 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 22:37 EST From what I understand, the Falcon030 was built without a DMA port. Since the SLM printers work off of that port, that makes them somewhat useless. :-) However, all is not lost. I also understand that someone (I think it's ICD) is making a SCSI -> ACSI adapter that will permit the SLM to be driven off of the external SCSI port. There is no particular reason why Atari dropped the ACSI/DMA port from the Falcon other than the lack of real estate on the back. Since this first machine is dedicated more towards the multimedia types, I guess they felt the lack of the port wasn't that serious. I *do* hope they keep the port on the rumored Falcon040, however! Even if I get a Falcon, I'll be keeping the TT030 anyway, which continues to be excellent for graphics and DTP work. That's where my SLM605 resides and for now at least, that's where it'll stay! :-) John T. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 53 Sun Dec 27, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 22:49 EST It is my understanding that Falcons sold in the US will support hookups to US tvs. The version I have was clearly made for Germany (German keyboard, German power cord, German PAL tv circuitry) and should not be viewed as the "only" version that will be produced. Bob Brodie has commented, in fact, that one asset in the home multimedia market will be the ease of transfering a Falcon030 to the living room and hooking it up to the tv for videotape manipulation, etc. This is one rationale for the single-piece design. And it's the very reason that I personally prefer the 1040 case to the Mega: packing up my Mega is a chore, while packing up a 1040 for a user group meeting or demo is a piece of cake. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 54 Mon Dec 28, 1992 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 09:12 EST Thunderbird, when I remember right Your favorite default resolution will be one of the things You'll be able to store in the Falcon's NVRAM - along with the language. -Johannes ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 55 Mon Dec 28, 1992 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 15:16 EST About the Falcon and the United States: It would be a disaster if the Falcons didn't support NTSC...that would quickly destroy thier Personal Interactive Media tag, and give the competition something to shame it with (even if they don't have the port in any form themselves). The case (1040 style) is fine with me - sure I would have liked a seperate keyboard, but the integrated unit is excellent. Taking it over to a friend's house to show him the computer wouldn't be at all difficult, park the HD, unplug it and your off. Even better is that since almost every computer user has a VGA type monitor, you won't have to drag a monitor around. I currently use a 520ST with 2 disk drives, and every port on the machine is taken besides DMA and the cart; moving the monster is more difficult than taking it apart. One self-contained unit with everything nessesary for use inside one case that can be carried under your arm is more than welcome on my desk. Of the course, if you need a monitor it could become a bit more difficult to move, but nothing near the boxes I need to move my computer system! Oh! And another observation. Lately a certain online magazine has resorted to ragging on people at Atari. I realize that the situation Atari is in may not be the best, but if this magazine has nothing better to print than rebut statements and negative comments about Atari's employees maybe this is the reason why the Atari community is going nowhere fast. "Gloom and Doom" reporting hardly helps the community to grow and to have an upbeat tone. BTW, I do not in any way concider the ideas expressed in that magazine to be the ideas of the general Atari population, because if it did, this message (which mentions positive attributes of the Falcon and negative attributes of the magazine) would be printed in it. __ __ __)ean ]_)ougherty -- 1993 ! Will it be Year of Atari? -- ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 56 Mon Dec 28, 1992 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 18:14 EST C.LABELLE [Tintin]: > >About the European machines: it looks like only the TV support will be lacking >over here. Does that concern only the R/F modulator? Will the composite video >output of the Falcon work on North American TV/monitor style (using the video >input jack)?? Composite video includes video timing and color modulation. Composite video is NTSC, PAL-I, PAL-B or SECAM coded so you can't use the composite video of the european machines. Like I said last week; the differences are more than only a chrystal and a R/F modulator. Several resistors, capacitors and coils are different to. Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 57 Tue Dec 29, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:46 EST S.DOUGHERTY1 - The Falcon030 isn't the same color as the TT, but as the regular 520/1040ST(E) (i.e. light grey, not off-white). Atari will debate the "RTS/CTS fiasco" with you. The Falcon030 should offer serial port rates of up to 115.2kbps (that's what I've HEARD anyway). Any SCSI CD-ROM that's PhotoCD compatible will work on the Falcon030. There's word that Atari's working on a CD-ROM drive that will interface with the DSP port or somesuch and that will only cost around $200, I don't know if that's true or not. D.SHORR - 1) Consider the source! 2) As far as I know, it's still being worked on. J.TRAUTSCHOL - The Falcon030's SCSI-II port has DMA and Atari decided to drop its proprietary interface for an industry standard one. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 58 Tue Dec 29, 1992 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 15:05 EST Steve, Atari made CD-ROM? Where have I heard that before? Going through the DSP sounds kind of odd to me. Wouldn't SCSI II be easier, faster, and more compatible? On the color of the Falcon, I was under the impression from reading in various places the color was a "TT-like" color with a dark grey keyboard. And YET more questions: Does Atari plan on making joysticks for the analog ports, or are they going to wait until a 3rd party developer does it? I don't think anyone is going to write any programs for the port if the sticks don't exist. Could IBM type joysticks be adapted to port if not? And lastly, does anyone think they will be like the old indestructible "black-box" models? Not so hot joysticks, but they last *forever*! I mean throw them off a ten story building onto a slab of concrete and they still work kind of indestructible! If you could only do that with a Falcon, with the hard drive parked first, of course. That would make an interesting commercial, just make sure it says "don't try this at home, unless you are using an IBM or compatible". Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 59 Tue Dec 29, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 15:51 EST Sean, the Falcon is the same grey color of the 1040ST, but the keys are dark grey and the Atari logo is multi-colored. Bob Brodie announced a new joystick a his last GEnie online conference, the transcript of which is in the Library. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 60 Tue Dec 29, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:00 EST Sean: Someone from Atari in one of the conferences said that they (Atari) had a nice 12 button analog joystick ready for manufacture for the Falcon030. I wonder if a 5200 joystick can be adapted for use with the Falcon030... or maybe that's what they did. _______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 67 Wed Dec 30, 1992 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 22:52 EST This is a reply to Bob B I sent a week ago but was lost during the topics transition. Bob was asking if I was interested in selling French units in Quebec. ================================================================= Bob, Thanks for your trouble. I might be interested in becoming an Atari dealer in the future, but not for now. I'm just considering the possibility to import an unit for my own use, so maybe I can get it sooner and in French. I managed to convince five friends in the last couple of years to buy STs; one has two. All are happy. However, French-Canadians have to redefine their keyboards with little utilities and cut and paste accented letters over their keys, an annoyance. Will it be a big deal for Atari to design a French- Canadian keyboard (similar to the one shown in MS-DOS 5 manual) for its Quebec customers? The French keyboard is "AZERTY" and unsuitable since we use "QWERTY". I personally don't mind. I read in AtariUser that the new TOS contains all the different resources for each country, and configurabled by CPX. Does that mean that I can tell the Falcon to become a US of French machine with a mouse click? and have all the menus and dialogs in French? but then does it change the keyboard to "AZERTY" layout at the same time? All I'm saying is Quebec is a distinct market. Quebec customers appreciate a french- canadian keyboard. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 68 Wed Dec 30, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 23:46 EST Tintin, the really good news is that the Falcon can be easily configured to provide any of several languages -- including French! Any Falcon can do this, not just French ones. Of course, the keyboard will still have the letters as they are, no matter which language is in memory. Here's how it works: Each of the languages is supported in ROM. You run a little configuration program telling the Falcon which language you want to be operating and voila! it's there! The keyboard responds as though it is the chosen language, the menu items on the desktop are in the chosen language, the dialogs and alerts are in the chosen language. The configuration can be changed at any time, just by rerunning the configuration program. This is a real boon to folks like myself who write in more than one language, and it makes things simpler for Atari, too, as they only have to provide one version of the ROMs for the whole computer-buying world. The only thing you would likely prefer compared to native English-speakers is a genuine French keyboard. I have a German keyboard on my Falcon, and it's very handy to have the keys actually _say_ on them the same character that is typed when I hit them. There are some keys that will be laid out differently on a French keyboard than on an English one, and of course some French characters aren't needed in English at all. In any case, the letter on the physical key has no bearing on the letter actually typed, so if you know the keyboard layout in the currently-chosen language, touch-typing is a breeze. I would trust that Atari will make French keyboards available in any case; it's very easy to switch keyboards -- only takes a couple minutes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 69 Wed Dec 30, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 23:51 EST Ah, Tintin, upon rereading your post, I discover that French Canadians _don't_ use the France-French layout. Thus you'd like the French dialogs, French characters, English keyboard -- but NOT the reassignment to AZERTY? If I've got that right, Atari almost gets a cigar, because you can have the first three things -- but AZERTY comes with it. I wonder if there is enough interest in Canada to warrant Atari devoting its personnel to this support. Hope so, I know how frustrating it can be to make the AZERTY adjustment; we use that in German, too. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 70 Thu Dec 31, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 00:13 EST Aren't _most_ of the keycaps interchangeable on the Falcon030 keyboard. It should be a snap to write a utility to remap the "AZERTY" keys of the French mode back to "QWERTY", and you could rearrange the key tops accordingly. I know it's a pain in the butt, but it looks better than pasted on labels. ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 71 Thu Dec 31, 1992 J.LYONS16 [JPL] at 00:35 EST I always thought the cheap joysticks were what killed the 5200. I heard a "rumor" from a dealer that Falcons will be available around the end of Jan (1M/0HD model priced between $450-$600). Lets hope they were right. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 72 Thu Dec 31, 1992 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 00:41 EST True, Thunderbird, it's cheaper to buy individual caps than a whole keyboard. But if I understand Tintin's problem correctly, the English QWERTY keyboard would do -- what he'd need is the remapping program to make the French TOS do QWERTY once his Falcon is configured for French. And you are right, that's a simple program; someone will get around to it, I'm sure. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 73 Thu Dec 31, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:06 EST S.DOUGHERTY1 - Atari has new analog joysticks (for the STE/Falcon enhanced controller ports) coming out in February. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 74 Thu Dec 31, 1992 S.GARRIGUS [Scotty] at 12:55 EST There is a picture on page 9 of the December issue of AtariUser of the new Falcon joystick. Scotty S.R.G. Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 75 Thu Dec 31, 1992 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 14:45 EST Tintin: About moving the keys (if had to be done) couldn't some of the keys be popped off and moved. I know there are some symbols that are different, but it should work. And I would think that someone would write a program to assign the keys to QWERTY if that had to be done, due to a good amount of Canadian ST users! Happy New Year to All! Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 76 Thu Dec 31, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 17:07 EST Steve: Do you know anything about the new joysticks? Do they have a keypad? Are they self-centering? Price? Any info you have would be great... thanks. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 77 Thu Dec 31, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 17:37 EST Sean/Tintin: Rearranging the keys of your existing keyboard to suit your needs while remapping them via a utility is _really_ what I had in mind. Mind you that Dot has a good suggestion that you just _buy_ new keytops from Atari with the appropriate symbols on them. Of course since the F030 uses all those old 1040ST components, you might just be able to buy a "dead" 1040 and swap the "QWERTY" keys. You probably cannot just swap keyboard units with an older ST, because you'd lose the high- rez mouse capability. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 78 Thu Dec 31, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 20:45 EST Say, did anyone ever get that FALCON_S.LZH with the Falcon030 Desktop GIF's to extract properly? What ever became of it? I was looking forward to seeing that other GIF. ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 79 Thu Dec 31, 1992 D.BOWMAN9 [DAVE B] at 23:19 EST Hello all, There is a reeeeal old acc that will remap the keyboard to anything you want it is called X_Util.acc and it should do the trick for you if it will run on the newer tos versions. It has alot of neat thing in addition to the keyboard remap. Look way back to 87-88 time frame. later, dave b 9:11:54 am, Thursday, December 31, 1992 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 81 Fri Jan 01, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:30 EST J.LYONS16 - A few dealers have promised that they will be selling the 1/0 model for no more than $650, but until they actually get them, they don't know what their EXACT price will be. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 82 Fri Jan 01, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 15:55 EST For an excellent indepth review, get the DEC issue of ST-Magazin. If you can read German...wish I could, better. Great full color picture, and everyting is labeled right too ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 83 Fri Jan 01, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 18:21 EST Dorothy, I too like the idea that you can change languages so easily. I read that the current languages on TOS are: English, German, Italian, Spanish, Swiss German, French, and Swiss French. I would like Atari to add Canadian French. Or maybe Swiss French will do? can you check for me if Swiss French has a "QWERTY" layout as opposed to the "AZERTY" France French layout? Thanks. Thunderbird/Dorothy/Sean, What I would like is a modified US layout, similar to the ones that are available for PCs. They have the alphabet keys at the same place, and many of the other keys in different locations to provide for accents and commonly used french characters. Some keys have 3 characters with the 3rd one accessed through a Shift-Alt combination. The new ST layout could be further improved over the PC--- the French-Canadian PC layout has the useful backslash (\) character very badly accessed. If not done, both US and France layouts have drawbacks. My personal solution would be: get a French keyboard or individual keycaps for the accents, etc., and change the keycaps and key assignments accordingly--- if it can be done, and it's awkward for most people. Dave B, I have that X_UTIL.ACC, it is inconvenient: you have to call it, go through 2 menus, load your keyboard file, and exit each time you boot. A keyboard macro could do this, though. Right now, I am using KEYBOARD.PRG; put it in auto folder and it assigns the shifted keys of the keypad to pre-determined accentuated characters. Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 84 Fri Jan 01, 1993 C.COOK7 [Cliff] at 18:27 EST > I wonder if there is enough interest in Canada to warrant Atari devoting its personnel to this support. Hope so, I know how frustrating it can be to make the AZERTY adjustment; we use that in German, too. ;-) ---------- I would certainly appreciate a keyboard which would allow me to type French characters - and the ability to switch dates displayed by the operating system the right way around. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 85 Fri Jan 01, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 18:57 EST Tintin, I'll check the QWERTY/AZERTY situation on the various built-in languages in just few minutes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 86 Fri Jan 01, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 20:08 EST OK, ran some tests on the Falcon. The language configuration program I am using provides the following choices: US UK France Spain Italy Germany Swiss German Swiss French Using the Swiss French mode, the first 6 keys from the upper left of the keyboard produce: QWERTZ. Using the France mode, the first 6 keys from the upper left of the keyboard produce: AZERTY. Using the US mode, of course, the first 6 keys produce: QWERTY. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 87 Fri Jan 01, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:24 EST Cliff: At least you get the correct date 12 times a year! :-) Like a broken clock is right twice a day... ___________________ \hunderbird Written at 11:10 PM EST on 01/01/93 ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 88 Sat Jan 02, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 00:49 EST My apologies to all on the goof in the Falcon GIF screenshots. I think Lloyd hit the nail on the head (thanks for the LZH bug report Lloyd!). The second GIF was added to the LZH file. Unfortunately, I'm out of town, this is my first log-on for a week and I'm Atariless right now so I can't fix the problem. I've just asked for help from another staff member while I'm gone. I know the NEC 3D works in all the Falcon and ST compatible video modes. I suspect any VGA monitor that works on the ST with the adaptors should do the same. All the desktop/window colors are configurable as in current TOS versions via the control panel and drop down menus. The control panel I had limited you to 16 colors out of 256, but I suspect that could change. ST compatible modes revert to the standard color capabilities in the icons and windows. It may be a week before I can get through this area again but I shall return ;-) Best wishes for the new year to all! Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 89 Sat Jan 02, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 04:08 EST D.ENGEL - Bob Brodie and/or Bill Rehbock talked about the new analog joysticks in the Falcon030 RTC's back in August and September. They have three fire buttons and a 12-key keypad in addition to the actual joystick (not joypad). There's talk that these will also be the standard controllers for the Jaguar. Although I don't know what they look or feel like, I've heard pretty good things from those who HAVE seen them and I would THINK (HOPE) that they are self-centering. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 90 Sat Jan 02, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 13:59 EST D.A.Brumleve, Do you have an English manual Dot? If so, what does it say on monitors. Does it just say any VGA or Multisync or does it go into details as to what type of model would give better results. I'm also curious at to what kind of output Falcon TV mode gives. Is it just like an RF output on the ST series or is it full colour overscan for Photo CD viewing? Atari should give you a medal for answering all thes 030 questions ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 91 Sat Jan 02, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:23 EST See Flat, I do indeed have an English-language manual for the Falcon, and it's a big improvement over previous ST manuals in my opinion. However, on the subject of monitors, it merely says that there are a variety of different monitors that can be used and explains the use of the monitor adaptor block in connecting one. ;-) It is my understanding that TV output should look just like it does on the SC1224 (which is quite spiffy in some resolutions), but I have been unable to test this. I asked Bob Brodie about monitor selection at a recent Dateline Atari! RTC. He went on and on about which monitor would be best for which use ;-). The gist of it is that VGA will let you enjoy the greatest number of resolutions with the best output, but there are certain applications for which one might make other choices for specific needs. I believe this was at the very last Dateline Atari! RTC, which is available in the library for download, but you might want to attend the next one (Friday Jan 8) and ask specifically about TV use. Or perhaps when Bob gets back to work he'll have a chance to comment here. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 92 Sat Jan 02, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 15:54 EST Dot, Thanks, I can't make it on Fridaty nights as I work. To bad those can't be held on Tuesday! (since Mondays and Wednesdays are spoken for) Are you using an SC1224 ? I will probably be using my SC1224 at first with the Falcon but will want to upgrade as soon as it's possible. By that time, they're will surely be some feedback on the matter. The Falcon is so easy to carry around anyway, I already have a flight case for my 1040, I can take the unit to the store and try out different monitors. It will be interesting to see IBMer's look at it and wonder.... ....What's this ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 93 Sat Jan 02, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 16:51 EST Yes, I'm using an SC1224, and it looks great in the true-color modes. You can run ST High on it, too (!), but it doesn't look nearly as good as on an SM124 (which can also be used). It is my understanding that a typical VGA will do justice to all of these modes. Overscan should work no matter which monitor is used. I have a flight case for it (used to hold a 1040STe), too. Got it at K-Mart for $16 several years back. It's a "behind-the-seat" toolbox for a pick-up truck; it is dark and light grey and it's slanted just like the 1040/Falcon. A little bit of foam and presto! instant travel case. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 94 Sat Jan 02, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 18:40 EST John (See Flat) Bob usually drop in for the last hour of the Monday and Wednesday RTCs. If you have an exact question for Bob then either drop in or EMail me the VGA or whatever question. *******Brian********* Written on Saturday 02 January 1993 at 06:27 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 95 Sat Jan 02, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 21:50 EST Dot, I really wish you had the TV adapter too! I'm seriously thinking of that for my system when and if I get a Falcon. Just to check though, the TV output isn't just Low rez as on the ST, it's all RGB resolutions, isn't it? If the output is anywhere near decent, I can see myself buying a new 21" TV long before I would be able to afford a 21" VGA monitor. The bennifit of the size would outweigh the flicker in a lot of Programs I use. I can't wait to test this out for myself. Charlie/sysop jr. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 96 Sat Jan 02, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 22:25 EST Charlie, so do I. ;-) Maybe another note to my friends at Atari will help... ;-) And, yes, I'm _sure_ you can run in all resolutions on a tv with the Falcon, but like with the SC1224, some resolutions are bound to look better than others. I've got a 32" tv, and I'm _really_ looking forward to checking it out! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 97 Sat Jan 02, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 22:30 EST Oops, Charlie, I just remembered: it's not just the monitor adaptor block that I need to use my Falcon with my bigscreen tv -- I also need the US circuitry, as my Falcon is wired for German tv. This one will have to wait a while, I'm afraid. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 98 Sat Jan 02, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:34 EST Dot: A while back you said that the Falcon030 could do overscan on any monitor. Is this true? Back in September Bob Brodie said about 100 times that VGA monitors "by definition" couldn't do overscan. The real question is this: Does _anyone_ make a monitor capable of displaying VGA (IBM style) AND RGB (ST style). In other words, do multisync monitors display VGA and RGB with overscan, if indeed VGA monitors _cannot_ do overscan????? I really want ONE monitor, yet still be able to run both the interlaced "true color" modes with overscan, and run 640x480x256 for productivity stuff. Can it be done? _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 99 Sat Jan 02, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 23:53 EST Thunderbird, I didn't say the Falcon could do overscan on any monitor. What I understand is that you'll get the same results on a tv that you get on an SC1224, and you _do_ get overscan modes just fine on an SC1224. As I have said, I cannot currently test it on a tv, but I'm sure an Atari employee can correct me if I am wrong regarding overscan on the tv. I'm not prepared to answer your question, but I imagine Atari tech personnel can. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 100 Sun Jan 03, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 11:43 EST Dot: Allright. What about the desktop? Can you use overscan with the desktop? Also, can you have a "true color" desktop? How about "true color" (more than 16 colors) on your "true color" desktop? Hey... if you send my your Falcon030, I'll be GLAD to change it over to NTSC video for you. I won't charge you a thing, and I promise you will only have to wait 6-8 weeks for delivery! :-) ________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 101 Sun Jan 03, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 13:05 EST Dot, You could use the Falcon with your TV, but only in B&W. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 102 Sun Jan 03, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:06 EST Yes, Kevin, I believe you are correct...but I also don't have the adaptor. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 103 Sun Jan 03, 1993 F.BELL1 [Frank @ Home] at 18:58 EST Overscan works both on TV and monitors. I think one resolution can't be overscaned but forgot which one. Normal Falcon isn't all that much though. Also remember, TVs don't make good monitors and they'll never replace a good monitor - they should be good for games and CD pictures. Frank... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 104 Sun Jan 03, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 20:05 EST Dot, Thank you for clarifying the language stuff. I guess all of us who need to type in French and English would appreciate a specific French-Canadian option. Regarding the monitors, a 14" VGA and 26"+ TV looks like a versatile combination to me. VGA for regular applications in non-interlace hi-rez modes, and TV for games, video, and graphics in up to 768 X 480 overscan true- color. The big screen is an asset when a number of people are watching. Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 105 Mon Jan 04, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:30 EST D.A.BRUMLEVE - Actually, you DID say "Overscan should work no matter which monitor is used" so that's probably where the confusion came from. D.ENGEL - My understanding is that a multiscan monitor (e.g. NEC 3D) WILL display the RGB w/ overscan resolutions fine -- just standard VGA/SVGA monitors won't. As long as a multiscan monitor supports the horizontal and vertical scan rates of the modes, it should work fine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 106 Mon Jan 04, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 01:39 EST Good point, Steve, I meant SC1224 or tv I believe...though it should also work with several others that support overscan. Sorry for the confusion. I am itching to try it out on others. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 107 Mon Jan 04, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:06 EST Steve: Can one of those multiscan monitors display the VGA non-interlaced, as well as the interlaced RGB modes with overscan? ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 108 Mon Jan 04, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:20 EST I'd like to know a little more about the math chip. Is it an option for the Falcon or is it included? If it's an option how much will it be? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 109 Mon Jan 04, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:47 EST See Flat: The math chip _socket_ is claimed to be standard on every Falcon030. It should be a simple matter to install the chip or have your dealer do it. Depending on what you plan to do with your Falcon030, you may not even need the 68882. Since it only assists with "Floating Point" math, having one will not just simply make the computer faster. It _can_ make 3-D graphics faster. I _cannot_ speed up your desktop (like warp9). It _can_ make your DTP program scale and rotate quickly. It _cannot_ make your "LZH" or "ARC" program quicker. Of course you may be aware of this already and I apologize if I'm repeating what you already know. I just see a lot of PC users complaining because they just spent $150 on a coprocessor and their "Windows" is not faster. Sometimes they accuse the math chip of not functioning... However, it is important to point out that the math coprocessor is also useless unless you have software which is "Coprocessor Aware". Since the ST lacked any way of installing a math chip for many years, most software is written assuming none is present. Most of the high-end graphics and CAD programs for the ST/TT have been updated to use the chip, and their speed will be improved greatly by installing the chip. The majority of other programs which you may have do not know how to access the math chip, and will not see any improvement with one, provided they even do floating point math to begin with. Also of importance: most "math intensive" games, like flight simulators and other 3-D graphics games achieve their speed through mathematical "cheats" and other tricks, and probably will never use the math chip either, since "cheating" is often faster than a fast math chip that "plays by the rules". If you do a lot of CAD and perhaps DTP and Graphics (especially RayTracing and 3-D rendering) then the 68882 is for you, but you have to get software which uses it. If you plan to use the Falcon030 for games, word processing, and telecommunication, you may want to wait on it. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 110 Mon Jan 04, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 23:00 EST Will the SC1435 (stereo monitor) work exactly the same as the SC1224, or is it enhanced in some way? I see very little difference using the ST vs. the STe. I will probably want to use the 1435 with my Falcon. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 111 Tue Jan 05, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:55 EST D.ENGEL - Since GEM fully supports the 16-bit color modes, I don't see why you couldn't have a true color desktop. The icons and such may be limited to 256 colors, but you SHOULD be able to have a 16-bit true color picture as the desktop's 'background,' though. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 112 Tue Jan 05, 1993 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 01:08 EST Thunderbird > I will be using Lexicor software and Phoenix does support the math chip. I dont' know if the other software I ordered does or not but surely at one point it will. It has been stated that Phoenix can run render about five times faster with math chip. So that would be about $150 ....better add that to the list of upcoming expenses. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 113 Tue Jan 05, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 01:14 EST The main difference I notice in using the SC1435 is that the screen is a bit bigger. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 114 Tue Jan 05, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 11:41 EST Thunderbird You cannot switch the Falcon desktop to overscan mode. The reason is that You might end up with half or no menu bar at all, depending on the monitor or display You use. Getting rid of screen borders implies that at least some pixels are outside of the visible picture. From what i know the desktop should be able to display 256-color icons. At the moment I don't know of a resource editor that can handle this but the next release of 'interface' - a german program - should fix that. -Johannes ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 115 Tue Jan 05, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 15:25 EST I've just uploaded FALC_TOP.LZH for your enjoyment. Included are screen shots from my Falcon which can be viewed on any ST. They are in Prism Paint format; if you don't have a .PNT viewer, try PNTVIEW.ARC in the library. The snapshots were taken in 40-column mode. The screens shown in low resolution on your ST will look _exactly_ like the originals on the Falcon in 40-column true-color mode, because I have fewer than 16 colors on the desktop. Please read the included doc for all sorts of extraneous info. A key to the files in FALC_TOP.LZH: 40_DSKTP.PNT -- The basic desktop with filenames in the directory window. 40_ICONS.PNT -- The basic desktop with icons in the directory window. SETCOLOR.PNT -- The View menu. SETVIDEO.PNT -- Selected from the Options menu, this dialog allows you to change resolutions. SET_MASK.PNT -- The File menu. SAM.PNT -- The System Audio Manager dialog; this memory- resident accessory allows the user to link digitized sounds to system events. When my computer boots up, I hear "Ta-da!", a squealing "Whee!" replaces the system bell, etc. I hope you enjoy this peek at the future! -- D.A. Brumleve ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 116 Tue Jan 05, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 18:26 EST Question! Does the Falcon's internal speaker turn off when the headphone jack it used? It seems like a stupid question, but you never know... Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 117 Tue Jan 05, 1993 K.HULET [Ken] at 20:09 EST Dot, Thanks very much for the continuing posts concerning your Falcon. I've wanted one almost since I first heard about them despite the "confusion" over some of the specs. I know you aren't supposed to comment negatively about compatibility but maybe you could mention some prgs. that seem to work OK. Can't wait to get mine! ............ Ken ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 118 Tue Jan 05, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 20:51 EST Ken, _everything_ I've tried so far works (with one exception, noted below), though in some cases there are minor glitches and in others one must run in "compatibility modes", that is, in ST resolutions. This is true for my own children's programs; they have to run in ST Low whether on the ST, STe, TT, or Falcon, but they do indeed run and operate as expected. It is to Atari's credit that they've taken such pains to ensure downward compatibility. In the cases of programs with minor glitches, I hope and trust that the programmers involved will provide updates that alieviate these oddities, none of which (so far) interferes with the actual function of the program. I'll leave it to the programs' developers to boast of their programs' compatibility. But it certainly can be said that, in general, the Falcon provides remarkable downward compatibility. The one program I've tried which bombs out completely is a memory- resident snapshot utility that hasn't been updated since TOS 1.0. Since there are other alternatives, I won't grieve over this one. ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 119 Tue Jan 05, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 20:55 EST I should mention that I have not tried any programs requiring a printer or a modem, as my Falcon is at a workstation without these peripherals. I intend to move it to another site soon, so I'll be testing some other applications. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 120 Tue Jan 05, 1993 J.FOY2 [JLF] at 22:06 EST What is True Color? Is there a limit to the usefulness of unlimmited colors? How much color can the human eye see? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 121 Tue Jan 05, 1993 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 22:30 EST Dot, Sounds like a must download file! To the libraries I go... Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 122 Tue Jan 05, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:52 EST JLF: I'm glad you asked about "true color". Allow me to clear up what I perceive to be a misinterpretation I believe you are having, from your post. "True Color" doesn't mean "unlimited colors", as you inquired about. There are varying definitions of "True Color". Since this _is_ a topic about the Falcon030, we will start with "True Color" as defined by Atari. In a nutshell, they say that "True Color" is a graphics mode where a given number of bits is taken from RAM, and the binary number those bits represent is a color value which is placed on the screen as 1 pixel. In the Atari ST, the colors are represented by a group of bits in RAM which contain a binary number also. However, that binary number is _not_ a direct color value, instead it is the number of a "palette box" which contains a binary number which is then used to color the pixel on the screen. The advantage of using a "palette box" is that you make the palette box big enough to hold as many bits as your design/price dictates, and you can keep screen RAM down to a small size because you only need enough bits of screen ram for each pixel group to represent the number of "Palette Boxes" you have included in the computer. This is why the ST can display "16 out of 512" colors. The ST has 16 "Palette Boxes" (you only need 4 bits of screen RAM to choose one of them), while each "Palette Box" is big enough to hold 8 red intensities, 8 green intensities, and 8 blue intensities (8 x 8 x 8 = 512 colors, which would require 9 "True Color" bits to display). So, this makes a cost saving technique of providing a lot more _possible_ colors to choose from. Many people suggest that "True Color" mode simply does not have "Palette Boxes", and displays each group of bits in screen RAM as whatever color it is. Is truth stranger than fiction? You be the judge... going by this definition of "True Color", your ST is displaying "True Color" when in the monochrome mode. 1 bit of screen RAM represents the actual color of 1 screen pixel. The "Palette Box" concept is gone. (The Palette is used for another function in monochrome, however. But this is not important now.) The "True Color" mode of the Falcon030 uses 16 bits of screen RAM to represent any of 65,536 different colors. Many SVGA cards use 24 bits of screen RAM to represent any of over 16 _Million_ different colors. As for the color detection ability of the human eye... it varies from one person to another. I'm sure everyone here has an opinion, and I do not have any documented proof from experts to say a specific figure. I was told by Bob Brodie words to the effect that most people cannot distinguish between a screen with 16 million and a screen with 65000 colors. This is perhaps true. I have no reason to doubt it. I will say that I have been told that the human eye is many times better at distinguishing _shades_ (or intensities) of colors, than distinguishing different _colors_ themselves. This brings us to a gritical point. It is up to you to decide for yourself what you feel is important, after you read what I am about to say: I have been told that the Falcon030 is capable of displaying a MAXIMUM of 64 _different_ shades of green (a maximum of 32 for red and blue) in "True Color" mode. (The ST has a maximum of 8 for a reference point) A 24 bit "True Color" card for the PC can display a maximum of 256 _different_ shades of _any_ color. (There are special cards which I have been told can do more than this) So, what does that mean to you??? Well, if you're an artist and you're drawing a blue sky which fades from blue at the horizon near the bottom of the screen, and black at the top of the screen, your "sky" will consist of 32 "bands" of blue each one a little brighter than the one above. Since your eye can _easily_ detect 32 different _intensities_, you will be able to distinclty see each shade as a band. In a 24 bit "true color" PC, your sky will have 256 bands of color each one much closer in intensity to the one above and below it than on the Falcon030. in fact, most people agree that with 256 shades, the transition is imperceptible, and you "see" a smooth transition from black to blue. There are techniques of "stippling" adjacent shades in computers with small numbers of possible shades, and these work well even in a lot of ST graphics you probably have seen (only 8 shades). So, you will have to judge for yourself based on what you perceive what "True Color" means to _you_. Many people feel that "True Color" means not less than 256 shades of each color. Other people feel that "True Color" means the lack of "Palette Boxes". You make the call. I will say that a 16.8 million color hard copy from a photo printer is visibly much better to my eye than the same picture printed in 65535 colors (stippled). The graduated shading is much smoother with 24 bits. On the monitor I also see a difference, but not as great. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 123 Wed Jan 06, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:00 EST D.ENGEL - I'm sure the NEC Multisync 3D can. As long as a multisync/multiscan monitor can handle between 50 (or 60, if you never plan on using any PAL-mode stuff) and 80+ Hz sync rate, and 15.7 to 38+ kHz (I think standard VGA is around 38kHz, anyway) scan rate, it SHOULD run ALL the Falcon030's video modes. Most of the multisync/multiscan monitors that currently support the ST's modes would probably work. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 124 Wed Jan 06, 1993 ATARIAUSTRIA [J.Widi] at 08:22 EST Billy, The SC1435 uses a 14 inch CRT so it is slightly bigger than the SC1224, it has stereo sound input for the built-in speakers an a tilt-and-swivel base, which the european SC1224 had not. Otherwise it is technically identical to the SC1224. -Johannes ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 125 Wed Jan 06, 1993 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 10:14 EST S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] > Does the Falcon's internal speaker turn off when the headphone jack it used? The answer is NO. You can switch the internal speaker on/off by using the XCONTROL panel. J.FOY2 [JLF]: >What is True Color? Is there a limit to the usefulness of unlimmited colors? The best definition of True Color I saw so far is that you have true color if you can manipulate the RGB of any screen pixel indepently. That means that 3bit/pixel is enough for true color. >How much color can the human eye see? I'm don't know they answer but in a german magazine I saw pictures in 256 colors, in 32k colors and in 16m colors and I (and the writer of that article) could not see differences in 32K and 16 million. Only if you zoom in or use very large monitors you will see differences. Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 126 Wed Jan 06, 1993 ARCHIVIST [Charlie] at 17:26 EST J.Foy, when you cut to the chase, 'True Colour' is a name some Madison Ave. type came up with. It's similar to buying laundy detergent at the supermarket. You can buy a box with 4 lbs of powdered soap in it, or you can buy a box with 8lbs of powered soap in it. The only difference is, a 4lbs box just has the brand name on it but the 8lbs box has this big headline on it that pronounces it a 'BONUS' box, or a 'VALUE' box or an 'ECONO' box. They can say what they want, all it is is a bigger box. True Colour, as T-Bird said, has the potential to display over 65,000 colours on your screen at one time. This is a nice step up from the STe which had a potential limit of 4096. Still, the thing to remember when debating whether 16- bit colour or 24-bit colour is better is that they depend on the size of the screen you're using. Your screen is made up of Pixels (dots) and in ST-Low rez your screen is 320 pixels wide by 200 pixels tall. You can't have more than one colour on one pixel at one time. 320x200=64,000 places to put a dot of colour at any one time. In a big 800 by 600 screen you have 480,000 dots to put colour on at one time. Your TV has 512 by 512 dots or 262,144 colours. I don't know if any computer can display a screen size large enough to use all 16 millions colours available on a 24-bit board (note to the tecks in the audience: do you? Is there a 4000 by 4000 screen available anywhere?). I do know that 16-bit ain't bad at all. Looks quite nice, in fact, on the times I've seen it. I'm looking forward to seeing it on the Falcon. Charlie/sysop jr. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 127 Wed Jan 06, 1993 M.L.HANSON [Merlin] at 19:10 EST JLF -- ... how many colors can one distinguish ... That's a question I have had for a long time. The best answer I have seen is a series of 3 full color samples for 8, 16 and 24 bit color. The same photograph, of three pool balls with reflections of each other, is used in all three samples. These are on page 289 of the Nov '92 issue of PC/Computing. I would expect the Falcon to be identical to 16 bit since 16 bits will encode 65,536 combinations. The 16 bit looks pretty good but clearly it is not good enough for any professinal work. As a matter of fact, even with 24-bit color the gradations between colors is not perfectly smooth. The pictures were chosen, of course, to emphasize the difficulty of reproducing photographs. The subject of the magazine article was 24 bit color cards for the clone market. The monitor is extra of course, they suggest a minimum of $1000 for the monitor. They recommended two cards (ten were listed) , one had a price range of $1695 to $1995 and the other one was $2295. The most expensive card was $2995. These are list prices though. By far the most common resolution was 768 x 1024, almost a standard. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 128 Wed Jan 06, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 19:44 EST Tbird, Good explanation of true color. Thanks. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 129 Wed Jan 06, 1993 SLP at 19:50 EST T'bird, I've noticed that the clone world is using "True Color" to mean no palette also, so you can't fault Atari for using the term. (I've even seen 32K colors called "true color" on PC cards) Actually the ST's monochrome mode still uses the palette. Change the one register and all of the screen colors will be reversed. So you are wrong about that analogy. Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 130 Wed Jan 06, 1993 R.SNYDER6 [Roger] at 20:40 EST AT&A has done (is doing?) a lot of research into what the eye can see in relation to monitors. One thing their research was supposed to show was that the number of colours was more important in displaying realistic images than the resolution (assuming certain minimums for both). --Roger ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 131 Wed Jan 06, 1993 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 22:24 EST Tbird - I would guess that multisync monitors SHOULD be able to handle any resolution. I haven't checked out exactly how they work, but I remember hearing from a friend who has fixed electrical stuff (incl. computers) for 10 years that multisyncs 'sync' to whatever display size you want within the limits of their useable range (ie a 1024x768 monitor could do 921x343 or some other odd resolution). Whether or not this is true, I don't know. I have also heard (note - HEARD NOT SEEN - this is a RUMOR) of a virus on the PC's (where multisyncs are much more common due to the fact that almost any system sold now does do 1024 - let's not start that debate though), which would (if you had a multi-sync) tell it to display ONE pixel in the centre of the screen. Apparently (so the story went on), the good msyncs would burn the dot into the tube after a while, and the cheaper ones would explode.. Same friend as above wrote a program - he did NOT release this as a virus - to destroy his mono PC monitor. Since he wrote the program, he knew exactly where his monitor would break and later fixed it (he has a second monitor). I have no reason to doubt the truth of this event. Mattias ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 132 Wed Jan 06, 1993 J.FOY2 [JLF] at 22:34 EST Thanks for all your posts!!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 133 Wed Jan 06, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:41 EST SLP: My message said that there was a special use for the palette register in ST Monochrome, so I wasn't wrong as you said. If you check the block diagrams of the ST video, you'll see that it really does fit the "True Color" definition in mono mode. The Palette is _not_ referenced by the bits in video RAM. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 134 Thu Jan 07, 1993 F.BELL1 [Frank @ Home] at 13:33 EST And now for some good news. The first Falcons (not pre-production or 'first' production machines) are being delivered to dealers in Germany. Some were even sold and in the hands of end users before Christmas. :-) Many dealers are or have increased their earlier orders beleaving the first few batches will be completely sold out and that at suggested Atari retail prices. Frank... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 135 Thu Jan 07, 1993 S.GARRIGUS [Scotty] at 19:39 EST Dot, Thanks for the pictures. They were excellent! I really enjoyed them. Scotty S.R.G. Software ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 136 Thu Jan 07, 1993 R.ALBRIGHT7 [Robb] at 20:28 EST T. STARACE1, I'm a little late going thru these messages, so you probably have an answer already, but I'll tell you anyway. Last night a local vendor brought his new Falcon to my club meeting for demonstration, and I brought my Acer 7015. I plugged the monitor into the Falcon ( using the provided db19=>db15 adaptor) and we used it in all resolutions. T Bird, 1) See Above 2) the F030 uses the same Window Colours CPX as my Mega STe ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 137 Thu Jan 07, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 21:52 EST Glad you enjoyed 'em, Scotty! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 138 Thu Jan 07, 1993 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 21:55 EST Thanks for that news, Frank! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 139 Thu Jan 07, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:15 EST Dot: Thanks for taking the time to put together the snapshots. They looked great. Now I can hardly wait to see what it looks like in 640x480 with 256 color icons. I want one ASAP! Robb: I thought that there were over 100 different resolutions that the Falcon030 was capable of producing... and you tried them all? (Just kidding) Thanks for the monitor update. This is indeed good news. __________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 140 Fri Jan 08, 1993 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:09 EST Real Falcons have appeared at dealers in the UK also. Mattias, the only monitor blowup option to ever exist was on the original IBM PC XT monichrome monitor/board combo, where if you accidently inverted the HSync signal, the monitor _would_ burst into flames eventually. This was something you could accidently do as a programmer debugging SW, but I hear tell there was a virus floating around many mnay years ago that exploited this "feature". Hmmm, imagine building a selfdestruct into your computers. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 141 Fri Jan 08, 1993 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:44 EST Mattias, It is possible for software to cause overheating of a monitor; the simplest way would be to drive the monitor at a much higher res than it is capable of showing and let it run for a few hours. A single pixel lit up in the middle of the screen won't do any harm, except to burn the phosphor a bit. A true multi-scanning monitor will be able to show resolutions that are truly odd (921 X 343 and so on), but it may not be able to handle unusual horizontal scan rates, such as the ones needed to show ST resolutions. Multi-scanning monitors don't sync automatically unless they are dedsigned that way. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 142 Fri Jan 08, 1993 JWEAVERJR [John@RSCARDS] at 09:24 EST The old Radio Shack TRS-80 Model II (the big clunky "business" machine) also had a "video self-destruct" - a friend of mine found it accidentally one day at work. -JW ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 143 Fri Jan 08, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 18:15 EST To anyone who uses a Falcon on a regular basis: Is there anything that is particularly annoying about the Falcon? Like tendencies to not run some PD/Shareware/Freeware programs, or just about anything that could be realisticly fixed? In other words, if you had to throw away your ST and have only the Falcon, would you hesitate to get the Falcon? This really won't influence whether I purchase a Falcon (I'm going to, it's just a matter of time), I'm just interested in what you think. Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 144 Fri Jan 08, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 21:44 EST Thunderbird, According to my sources, the Falcon can display 65 536 colors out of 262 144 possible colors. I know the 24-bit PC card can have over 16 million possible colors, but certainly not all at once on screen, as you say. After all, there is only 307 200 pixels on a VGA screen. Correct me if I'm wrong. I agree with the shades argument. Also what would be the size of a 16-bit picture and a 24-bit one? Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 145 Fri Jan 08, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:17 EST Tintin: I can't understand the significance that so many people place on the fact that "16.8 million colors is useless because you can't see all of them at the same time on a monitor". I wish that AEO would publish an article which clears up these misconceptions. It's _really_ all in the shades. I think everyone will agree that it is almost impossible to take a photograph with 16.8 million colors in it. I suggest you try and find a (non abstract) Spectrum 512 picture with all 512 _colors_ in it. However, you have to admit that taking a picture with 256 _shades_ (of a handful of colors) in it is easy. If you're limited to 32 _shades_, you're not going to get the realism. I'd venture a bet that in a given resolution (320x200) that more realistic photographs could be shown with about 32 grey levels than could be shown with the entire ST 512 color palette. 16.8 million colors is simply better because there are more _shades_ to choose from to display on your available pixels. I see no coherent reason _anyone_ would want to display every color at once. You bring up an interesting point. If the Falcon030 has a 18 bit palette (262,144 colors), is it restricted for use with only the non "True Color" modes? Is there some way to access the 18 bits of color resolution in the "True Color" modes (like HAM8 on the Amiga)? If so, then it would be really great. With 18 bits to choose from (6 each Red, Green, Blue), you'd get 64 shades of each to mix. This means that if "True Color" modes can't get beyond 16 bits, then 640x480x256/262,144 will be able to generate better shading. That means a 3-D cad program may be better off using the 256 color mode for 3-D rendering of objects. Also, consider that a 320x200x16bit image takes up 128000 bytes of disk space, the same image in 24 bits takes 50% more, or 196000 bytes. A 640x400x16bit image takes up 512000 bytes, and the 24 bit version eats up 768000 bytes. Higher resolutions eat lots more. However, JPEG compression is used almost universally on pictures of this size, so your eventual file size can end up being virtually anything. Dot: Are you allowed to reveal the layout of the bitplanes in the various new Falcon030 modes. It would be very useful to know if the 256 color modes use each consecutive byte to reference a palette color of a pixel, or if the bits are interwoven like on the ST. Also, are the "True Color" modes set up with each consecutive word indicating the color of a pixel? Thanks in advance if you can answer. ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 146 Fri Jan 08, 1993 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 23:41 EST I know nothing about VGA/SVGA monitors. What is the appropriate monitor for the Falcon? I don't want to buy more than I need. Should I buy a .41 or .39 vga or will I benefit by buying a .28 svga? Bruce M Kantor ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 147 Sat Jan 09, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 00:21 EST Thunderbird, I can't answer that. Maybe someone from Atari will drop by shortly. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 148 Sat Jan 09, 1993 DAEDWARDS at 01:17 EST D.Engel: RE color sensitivity: the same question has come up in the JerryP RT, which has a (mostly) different set of self-proclaimed experts (whereas I'm a self- proclaimed expert in both areas :-) Someone, I forget who, says that 21-bit color is at least as good as around 90% of the species can see. That would be 7 bits per primary color. BTW, it should not be complicated, working with 32 shades of blue, to produce a seamlessly faded blue-to-black. It will take some software support, though. Simply draw with the (quite likely visible) stripes you describe, then select that area and apply a function that randomly either increments, decrements, or leaves untouched the color value of each pixel. (Locking out over- or underflow.) If the result is too dull, also use a 5% chance of incrementing the green or red characteristic of the pixel. Repeat this process until the desired smoothness is achieved - probably not more than 2-3 times. You won't affect the AVERAGE intensity of any band, but there won't be any detectable lines... ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 149 Sat Jan 09, 1993 B.REHBOCK [BILL@ATARI] at 05:02 EST Falcon true color modes are 16-bit pixel-packed as follows: RRRRRGGGGGGBBBBB (5-6-5) If you are doing genlocking and using the overlay/keying bit, then it is: RRRRRGGGGGxBBBBB (5-5-5), where x is the overlay bit. There is a VDI call, v_setmask, that handles the overlay bit. The 8-bit modes are interleaved, compatible with the old TT & ST Video. The Desktop will run in all True-Color modes, however overscan modes are under application control only. -Bill@Atari ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 150 Sat Jan 09, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:41 EST Bill@Atari Thanks for the clarification on the bitmapping. Now I can convert some of my routines to run on the F030. Of course I can't test them until I get one. Thanks again. ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 151 Sat Jan 09, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 10:18 EST Timely reply, Bill. ;-) Thanks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 152 Sat Jan 09, 1993 SFRT-ASST [Kenne@SFRT] at 13:43 EST I lost this topic. So are the Falcons shipping? ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 153 Sat Jan 09, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:25 EST Kenne, as Bob Brodie explained in the Dateline Atari! conference here last night, Falcons are shipping in small quantities to Germany, England, and elsewhere. There have been some minor glitches in these first shipments, but they have also experienced an unacceptable defect rate. Atari is addressing this problem, apparently by complaining to the factory currently doing the work as well as contracting with another factory. Because of the defect-related delays, Bob said that the Falcons would not ship in quantity before March. (Pressed Return too soon. ;-) That is, he said they were not shipping yet in the US, and would not likely ship in North America before March. But don't rely on my translation. ;-) You can d/l the entire conference from the library. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 154 Sat Jan 09, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 16:08 EST >D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:25 EST > > (Pressed Return too soon. ;-) That is, he said they were not shipping > yet in the US, and would not likely ship in North America before March. Wow, what a shock -- NOT! :^( ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 155 Sat Jan 09, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 18:54 EST q In my opinion, the _best_ news of last night's Dateline Atari! conference was that Concierge, a.k.a. ST Sutra, has now tentatively been renamed Atari Works. That's a great name, a name folks will understand right off the bat, it translates very neatly into other Germanic languages with the use of direct cognates, and everybody can pronounce it. Bravo! Bob indicated that Atari Works would most likely be included (bundled) with new hardware sales and sold as a separate package to current owners. The program is said to work with machines from the Falcon on down, and I'm very much looking forward to using it myself. Some folks using the beta version were highly praising it last night. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 156 Sat Jan 09, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 19:26 EST Thunderbird, Thanks for your explanations. I hope we will not see too much difference between 24-bit pictures displayed on IBM and on Falcon. Photo CD pictures, for example, will have to be converted down to 16-bit. Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 157 Sat Jan 09, 1993 J.P.C. at 19:37 EST Hooray for the name 'Atari Works'! Also a _very good_ move to bundle it with the F030. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 158 Sat Jan 09, 1993 SFRT-ASST [Kenne@SFRT] at 23:21 EST That's sounds a lot like "somewhere in or after the first quarter in '93" . I win a bet. Maybe. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 159 Sun Jan 10, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 00:03 EST Hooray for "Atari Works"! Now we have a name everyone can spell right too! ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 160 Sun Jan 10, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:19 EST C.LABELLE - Actually, the Falcon can display EITHER up to 65,536 colors out of 65,536 colors OR up to 256 colors out of 262,144. B.KANTOR - When you get into high resolution color, a .28 dot pitch or lower is HIGHLY recommended. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 161 Sun Jan 10, 1993 JEFF [Jeff W.] at 11:14 EST I'm also relieved with the name change of "ST Sutra" to "Atari Works." I still can't say "ST Sutra" without snickering. :-) - Jeff Williams ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 162 Sun Jan 10, 1993 OUTRIDER [Terry] at 11:15 EST Thunderbird, I agree. Atari Werks is much better -- AND easier to spell! ;^) ((( Terry ))) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 163 Sun Jan 10, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 11:17 EST Jeff! Cool to see your opinion expressed in here! ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 164 Sun Jan 10, 1993 R.MONFORT1 [Ringo] at 11:34 EST Why it is "Jeff"! How are you? Atari Works, sounds very good to me. Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 165 Sun Jan 10, 1993 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 14:35 EST Dot, I agree with you! Atari Works is a MUCH better name than Concierge. The name "Atari Works" brings to mind a useful, application while "Concierge" at least to me brings to mind a bunch of stuffy people with servants. Just the type of people I try to avoid at all cost since they never accomplish anything. :-) ....... and if they were calling it ST Sutra, that sounds like a car, not a piece of software.... :) Of course my "vision" I get at the name Concierge may be way off since I really don't know it's true meaning. I'll bet that a very significant portion of Atari owners and potential owners haven't a clue as to it's meaning either. I also applaud them packaging it with the F-030. Now if we could just get some F-030's here in the states. (of course it sure would be nice if there was someplace to buy them too, but I digress....) Wayne ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 166 Sun Jan 10, 1993 J.TRAUTSCHOL [jtrautschold] at 16:42 EST Jeff! You're back! Good to see you again!!! John T. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 167 Sun Jan 10, 1993 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 17:03 EST Jeff, Glad to see you back online. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 168 Sun Jan 10, 1993 LOREN at 17:51 EST With all this talk of tru color and various monitors, I think I may hav missed any mention of composite video output from this new bird. What provision is there for getting the video out in a signal that can be used by standard video equipment? I plan to use mine (when I get it) for animation, but I would hate to not be able to get those great pictures out onto tape with Cyber VCR or the like. What's the story? What did I overlook? Thanks, -L ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 169 Sun Jan 10, 1993 B.KANTOR [Bruce] at 18:05 EST S.Johnson: Can you please make some suggestion as to what specs. I should be looking for. I will be using 640x480x256 the most. What I am looking for is should I get an svga or a vga? and what is the maximum acceptable dot pitch for a vga at 14"? Will a svga look any different than a vga on a Falcon-030? Any info would be helpful. Bruce M. Kantor ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 170 Sun Jan 10, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 18:15 EST Loren, it would seem that your application is exactly what the Falcon is designed for. You can use it with a tv no problem. I can't use _mine_ with a tv only because it was designed for the German tv system, which is substantially different. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 171 Sun Jan 10, 1993 LOREN at 18:27 EST Thanks for the good word, D.A. It sounded like just what I was looking for, but I never heard any word on video output. Thanks for lending me a clue! -L ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 172 Sun Jan 10, 1993 SFRT-ASST [Kenne@SFRT] at 21:18 EST If there's no composite video output there _are_ VGA to composite video encoders. VGA to component video probably exists too. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 173 Sun Jan 10, 1993 EXPLORER.1 [] Ron [] at 22:06 EST Loren, The Falcon030 has RF video available via a RCA connector on the back of the unit. The video looks very good on a TV. Composite video and sync are brought out through the video connector. A simple adaptor cable could be used between the VCR composite inputs and the Falcon030. Ron @ Atari Explorer Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 174 Sun Jan 10, 1993 B.REHBOCK [BILL@ATARI] at 22:12 EST A few notes... Sutra is really named Atari Works, not just tenatively :-) Sutra actually did make sense, but it did take way too long to explain it; Concierge was the most ridiculous, especially considering that "Concierge" literally in French means janitor or housekeeper :-) I am very excited about Atari Works getting ready to ship, it really has been worth the wait. I personally that most people that are using Falcon030 in productivity- oriented situations will use a standard VGA monitor running in 640x480x256 color mode. If they want interlaced true-color, they will probably be running an animation or rendering package and want composite output to a VCR. Atari's 16-bit dithering of 24-bit PhotoCD pictures on Falcon is likely to be the best you'll ever see. It was designed by ColorConcepts, the same company that did much of the color handling in Calamus SL. Many people at Comdex that saw PCD running on Falcon said the output was vastly superior than what they saw on any 16-bit true-color PC or Mac. Officially, the video outputs are: ST-Compatible RGB output (15kHz Horizontal - 50/60Hz Vertical) ST-Compatible Mono (SM124) output (70Hz Vertical) Industry-Standard VGA Output (will support up to VESA 72Hz Vertical) Composite Video Output Channel 2-3 RF Output -Bill@Atari ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 175 Sun Jan 10, 1993 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 22:22 EST Welcome back, Jeff! "Atari Works" _does_ have a nice ring to it, for "just a game machine." ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 176 Sun Jan 10, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 23:16 EST Atari Works, complete lack of originality. We had Lotus Works, Microsoft Works and now Atari Works. At least it identifies well the package as integrated software. Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 177 Sun Jan 10, 1993 JEFF [Jeff W.] at 23:36 EST Thanks, everybody. You'll be seeing me throughout the BB as time goes on. It's good to see ya'll again. Now I have to catch up on all the Falcon news... - Jeff Williams ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 178 Mon Jan 11, 1993 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 00:06 EST Jim - It's possible that this WAS an XT monitor - I know it was a mono.. This one didn't blow up, it just eventually 'died'.. Tintin - Try more like 786 432 pixels (1024 x 768).. I don't you could buy a new machine with less than that now (at least not a PC - Atari, well....:-) Mattias ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 179 Mon Jan 11, 1993 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 00:31 EST Will there be any programming languages bundled w/ the Falcon?? If so, PLEASE PLEASE don't bundle ST Basic, or fix the 19.1 (19.2?) bug.. How about talking to GFA and bundling GFA 2.0 w/ the Falcon?? It was given away in STart, so I think it's copyrighted but free or something like that.. Would sure KICK SOME BUTT!! Mattias ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 180 Mon Jan 11, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:15 EST I'm glad Bob cleared up the questions regarding delays on the Falcon030, but what was the delay in Atari making a decision on doing something about the manufacturing problems. Supposedly, production F030's have been 'coming off the assembly lines' since July/August '92, and it's taken 5 MONTHS for Atari to realize there were problems??? Or was it one of those things where they've BEEN complaining to the sub-contractor about problems since they first started rolling out F030's and the sub-contractor kept saying "Oh! We'll fix that straight away!" and now Atari's just fed up with the excuses and broken promises? See, Atari! There IS a good reason to own your own factories!!! I wasn't going to be buying one until late Spring/early Summer anyway, so as long as they're out by THEN, I'll be fine with it. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 181 Mon Jan 11, 1993 AEO.3 [Lyre] at 01:21 EST Tintin, It also, from a psychological standpoint, identifies it with the programs offered on these other computers. Since those computers are "real computers" and Atari is a "game machine" it will most likely cause people to reconsider their previous attitudes toward Atari products. It is also a selling point because people are going to ask if their is something similiar to Lotus and/or Microsoft Works for the Atari. An the answer is yes - Atari Works. An it does. Lyre 1:03 am, January 11, 1993 ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 182 Mon Jan 11, 1993 B.REHBOCK [BILL@ATARI] at 02:09 EST One of the great things about Falcon is the fact that unlike the Mac or PC, no expensive composite solution is needed. Atari is manufacturing an adapter block similar to the VGA and ST blocks that will be available. The block has two RCA connectors on it, the yellow supplies composite video and the white has a left and right mix-down of the stereo output of the sound system. It is set up so that people can get their animations and graphics, in living color, completely overscanned out to video tape as easily as possible. In Europe, we will have a Peritel/SCART cable available to do the equivalent video stuff over there :-) -Bill@Atari ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 183 Mon Jan 11, 1993 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 03:40 EST Atari Works is a good name. I just hope that it can compare feature-wise to the other "Works" products on the market. If Atari can't get AW done in time for release with the first Falcons, maybe they could bundle the Atari Word Processor (Calligrapher Light) and include a coupon for a free (or low priced) upgrade to AW. Folks really almost _expect_ to have a usable, worthwhile word processor out of the box these days. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 184 Mon Jan 11, 1993 M.TROUPE [Helium] at 05:32 EST Wayne, I do not know if "Atari Works" would be my choice. I would rather have something called "Atari Integrated Application Suite" but it may be too long a name. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 185 Mon Jan 11, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 10:20 EST Mattias, I don't think we have to worry much about Atari bundling ST Basic wit{h the {Falcon. ;-O The current version of the GFA Interpreter does not support the Falcon's added resolutions. I understand they are working on that. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 186 Mon Jan 11, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 11:51 EST Of course programs written using the VDI and AES directly and bypassing GFAisms should work fine in the Falcon resolutions. --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 187 Mon Jan 11, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 12:06 EST Kevin, compiled GFA programs designed for all resolutions should indeed run fine on the Falcon030. My own programs are for ST Low only, and they _do_ run in ST Low on the Falcon030. The problem is in using the GFA Basic _Interpreter_ in anything other than the usual ST-compatible resolutions, and it is my understanding that GFA is updating their product. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 188 Mon Jan 11, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 13:07 EST Dot, I'm having problems with a GFA based Desk ACC I wrote. For some reason on TOS1.0 or TOS1.2 mouse droppings seem to be a 'feature'. :( However, the Desk ACC works fine on TOS1.4 or above. I think GFA may imbed a hide/show mouse call in some of it's versions of the AES and VDI calls. I guess this should be GEmail. :) Anyway, I'm waiting on my Falcon.... and waiting.... and ........... --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 189 Mon Jan 11, 1993 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 19:19 EST Steve, I know this may drift off topic a bit, but after working in the manufacturing industry for 11 years prior to changing careers over to the Fire Department I can see why it may have taken 5 months for the situation with production/QC to come to a head. I was constantly at odds with "management" at the shop about quality. All they could see was numbers as in units out the door. They did not consider very highly the numbers of units coming back IN the door because of defects. From time to time I'd notice representatives from our customers coming through with some of our big-whigs. The word would get out that there was a problem and a bunch of units were malfunctioning right out of the box. Basically what happened was our people would take the customer rep out on the floor, show them around, and promise that everything was under control and that "It won't happen again". We'd all work like mad repairing the defects, and take extra steps to assure that it didn't happen again. (at least until the heat was off) Also with delays between production and distribution there could be several weeks/months of production out there before the problem shows up. Figure that it might take 4-6 weeks for a computer to go from the shipping dock of the plant and eventually end up in someones home where he finds out the fraggistat doesn't fraggilate. I don't know where the plant they are using is located, but as a general rule I sure hope it isn't here in the US! (I DO hate to say that) Contrary to what Ford says, here in the US "Quality is job NONE". :-) If the rumours are true that Atari is bringing another independent plant online that is THE surest way of getting Quality Control. If there is only one plant there is no incentive for them to do good work, but if their job is on the line that's the best incentive! Another reason that's good is that if one plant has a problem you can increase production at the other plant to offset the loss from the first plant by adding extra shifts, etc. It's not a question of if there will be a problem but when, it happens everywhere. That's better than only having one plant and when they get a problem you get no production until they can get back online. ------ Helium, Atari Works may not be the most original name, but just about anyone off the street can look at the name and get a very good idea of what the product does. Sure beats Concierge! :) Wayne ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 190 Mon Jan 11, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 19:26 EST In regard to Atari Works: I like the idea of bundling it with the Falcon. I think I might just wait on buying the Falcon until it is! I don't have a commercial database or spreadsheet program for my ST, but I do think I will find uses for both of them, especially the database. As far as the originality of the name, I don't think originality counts for anything today. People are buying the same old computer in droves every day. It actually gives the program some "that should be usefull" identity. In regard to the currently bundled software: Does the currently bundled software have to be installed by the end-user or is it pre-installed? If they are on disk, are they easy to install? Are there seperate manuals for each program, and are they well organized? I personally never read any manuals for software unless I have a problem, in fact I still haven't read the manual to much of the hardware I have - but nearly every new user I have seen reads them front to back and wants very clear and consise instructions in English (or whatever language!). Atari has done well at this in the past and I hope they continue or improve upon this trend. Oh, and how does MultiTOS flip between programs? Does it use a Multifinder type interface or is it more of a screen flipping thing? Do TOS applications run in windows? And how does MultiTOS handle sound, or is that the responsibility of the applications? As far as monitors for the Falcon: What monitor(s) does Atari recommend, or what specifications to they recommend? What is a reputable brand that won't cost an arm and a leg? Being a programmer I might want a MultiSync, since my SC1224 is getting quite old! And lastly, what is the maximum data transfer rate that could be theoretically achieved on the SCSI II port? I realize it is by far higher than any currently available hard drive, but I was just wondering... Even if I get a quarter of these questions answered I'll be happy. Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 191 Mon Jan 11, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 23:13 EST Wayne, the company with quality-control problems is not in the US. The "rumor" that Atari is bringing another company into the production is not a rumor; it was stated as fact by Bob Brodie in the RTC. The file is in the library. I highly recommend it. I found it informative enough that it became the main article in the newsletter I just sent out to my user group. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 192 Tue Jan 12, 1993 R.ALBRIGHT7 [Robb] at 00:00 EST > In my opinion , the _best_ news of last night's Dateline Atari! > conference was that Concierge, aka ST Sutra, has now tentatively > been renamed Atari Works Dorothy, But do you think there could be legal difficulties with microsoft due to the similarities to their program, and now sharing the name too? Veg ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 193 Tue Jan 12, 1993 CBARRON at 01:52 EST Mattias, Unfortunately, it was not 'given away', it is obsolete. It might run on a falcon, but I have SERIOUS doubts. It requires a update for every version of tos. GFA cheats, especially 2.x. It certainly is not the greatest thing since ice cream. Hisoft's basic 2 is a more reasonable basic, it does not cheat in what it produces, It is structured, it accepts even ST basic as source code. Lots of advantages over gfa 2.0, It is available now. Has linkable libs from what I understand so that Falconizing it is a matter of modifying the libs, rather than the compiler. (It compiles fairly fast, so no interpreter/compiler differences exist either.) GFA 2.x is NOT MULITOS COMPATIBLE..... Dorothy... I do not think ATARI will bundle any language. If it does it should bundle a 'clean' one. Definitely not gfa 2.x or 3.x. Hisoft's latest, might be an idea. Current GFA's are out. At least HSBII is extendable, via linking libraries. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 194 Tue Jan 12, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:58 EST B.KANTOR - I'm not sure about all the technical stuff about VGA and SVGA monitors, but I've heard from all over that if you're going to be using 640x480 or higher that you should find a monitor with a dot pitch of .28 or less (although I think up to .30 is 'acceptable'). The Atari RGB monitors have dot pitches of around .45+ and you can tell (or at least _I_ can!). It's just that the smaller the dot pitch is, the crisper and clearer the display will look. I will probably be going ahead and getting a multisync/multiscan monitor when I get my Falcon030 (or maybe even now to use with my STE until the Falcon030 comes out) -- probably a NEC MultiSync 3DS, which sells for under $400 refurbished and under $460 new. B.REHBOCK - Good to see you around here again! Shouldn't that be "Channel 3-4 RF Output" or IS it "Channel 2-3 RF Output"? Also, there's the under $100 (maybe under $75) Screenblaster from Overscan in Germany, which supposedly yields up to 880x608x256 at 61Hz, 768x496x256 at 72Hz, and 640x480x256 at up to 80Hz on SVGA monitors. Do you know anything about the Screenblaster personally? To me, it sounds like a nice add-on for those who think 640x480x256 may be too limiting, but I'd like to know more about this product (e.g. how it works with TOS so that you can actually USE these higher resolutions, etc.). The only thing Atari Works is missing is a terminal program (which most, if not ALL, of the other 'Works' programs have). Maybe they can update the package in the future to offer more features and offer $5-$10 upgrades to owners of the original Atari Works package. M.HEMBRUCH - Another company bought GFA BASIC for Atari machines from GFA (since they stopped development on it) and is working on a Falcon-compatible ??? BASIC package. I don't think Atari is planning on bundling ANY programming languages with the Falcon, but it would be nice if they did -- like license HiSoft's HiSpeed Pascal or Power BASIC or somesuch. If and when they do, however, I would hope that whatever package is used fully supports the Falcon. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 195 Tue Jan 12, 1993 R.NOAK at 03:47 EST Robb, Works is not copyrightable. Microsoft is. So is Atari. I see no problems with Atari Works. Randy @ Southlake, Inc. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 196 Tue Jan 12, 1993 DOUG.W [ICD RT] at 07:59 EST I don't think Atari will have any problem with the word 'Works' since there is already Claris Works, Lotus Works, Microsoft Works, and probably others. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 197 Tue Jan 12, 1993 B.REHBOCK [BILL@ATARI] at 12:28 EST Wayne, You are absolutely right about the fact that the best motivation for a manufacturing facility is competition. We have not committed to bundling Atari Works with Falcon030, but as Atari Work's product manager, I'd naturally like to see it bundled :-) All of the software that does come with Falcon _is_ pre-installed on the harddisk, ready-to-run. Unlike the Macintosh Performa, we also include back- up floppies of everything, too. Steve Johnson - Thanks, it is good to be back :-) The show season (Atari Messe, BCS, Comdex, etc. was a killer!) Screenblaster is really great, and it is very TOS-compatible. I know the guys at Overscan personally and they are a great bunch. They are looking for a solid U.S. distributor, if anybody is interested. "Screen Blaster" isn't T'Marked by Creative Labs in the U.S. yet :-) We do intend to upgrade Atari Works as time goes on. Sam has already agreed to letting me do a free (postage and handling) upgrade when we finish the telecommunications module. It did originally have one, but it was too weak in by opinion. I want to make sure it has X, Y, and Z-modem so that it is fully useful. If users think a language would be a useful thing to be bundled with Falcon, please send me e-mail saying so. I need to persuade the marketing people. :-) -Bill @ Atari ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 198 Tue Jan 12, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 13:36 EST Bill, Remember, "Sam has already agreed ... free ..." is now on record. :) I'd like to see a language bundled (but not ST Basic :). I'll send GEmail on that one. Well, the Windoze terminal I'm typing at (from my '486DX/33) doesn't have anything but Xmodem and ASCII text captures. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 199 Tue Jan 12, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 14:37 EST I don't think the bundling of a language is nearly as important as the kinds of applications you've been looking at. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 200 Tue Jan 12, 1993 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 15:14 EST Well... yes the apps are MORE important than the prg lang, but why not throw in some basic for users to play with? They get QBasic with the clowns & MS Winblows. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 201 Tue Jan 12, 1993 S.DOUGHERTY1 [Sean@TWS] at 19:00 EST I agree with Dorothy, the packaging of a programming language is not really terribly important. I would rather see something like Calligrapher Light, or maybe some type of terminal program. Heck, a GIF/JPEG/TIFF viewer in a window would be very usefull. Bill@Atari: Excellent idea to put the bundled software on disk AND pre- installed. I went over to a friend's house to help him fix up Windows but it required the backup he didn't have, and the place he purchased the computer at wasn't quick to help either. *Excellent idea* And about GFA and its "cheating": Who cares? It is Basic! GFA is an excellent revision of Basic by any standard. I heard somewhere the internal disk drive's faceplate is now shown instead of the slots in the case...is this true? Sean Dougherty ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 202 Tue Jan 12, 1993 D.A.BRUMLEVE [kidprgs] at 19:26 EST When the 520ST was released, it made infinite sense to include a programming language: there was very little commercial software available, and many users _needed_ to program their own applications. This was also an era when many home computer enthusiasts were _interested_ in programming themselves. Nowadays, it seems to this observer, most folks are more interested in store-bought solutions; they spend their creative time with their machines not in writing programs, but in writing and publishing documents, painting, etc. The Falcon owner doesn't _have_ to program in order to enjoy the benefits of his machine; there is plenty of compatible software already available. I'd rather see a basic array of applications than a programming language. I'm glad to see the plans to include what Atari is already planning to include. With few exceptions, "bundling" adds to the original cost of a computer. Each developer takes a "cut" of the retail dollar. It could be difficult to provide a plethora of built-in software and to keep the cost of the machine in a reasonable range at the same time. While we may think of these software offerings as "free" with the hardware purchase, _somebody_ does pay for them down the line. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 203 Tue Jan 12, 1993 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 19:29 EST All Right! Atari Works will have a comms module! ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 204 Tue Jan 12, 1993 C.LABELLE [Tintin] at 19:53 EST Bill Rehbock: >In Europe, we will have a Peritel/SCART cable available to do the equivalent >video stuff over there :-) > Does that mean that an american Falcon will be able to display on European TV- monitors, and vice versa? Tintin ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 205 Tue Jan 12, 1993 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 20:13 EST Dot, I haven't had a chance to download the RTC transcript, but do plan on doing so. I'm glad that they are bringing another vendor online to help with the production of the Falcon. As I stated this can only improve their ability to insure both quality control, and also timely production. ------ >Wayne, You are absolutely right about the fact that the best motivation for a >manufacturing facility is competition. Yes, no greater incentive for company 'x' to strive to better quality and production than thinking that company 'y' is going to do a better job and put them out of business. The examples of this are overwhelming. >We have not committed to bundling Atari Works with Falcon030, but as Atari >Work's product manager, I'd naturally like to see it bundled :-) I feel that bundling Atari Works with the F-030 is absolutely vital. A computer is useless if the owner can't open the box and do anything "real" with it. >All of the software that does come with Falcon _is_ pre-installed on the >harddisk, ready-to-run. Unlike the Macintosh Performa, we also include back- >up floppies of everything, too. Another great move IMHO. This ties directly in with my statement above. The person gets home, opens the box, plugs it in and can actually do something with it instead of having to try and figure out how to install programs in the HD as a "how-do-you-do" intro to the computer. The floppy backups is also great for the inevitable erasure of the program on the HD. :) >We do intend to upgrade Atari Works as time goes on. Sam has already agreed >to letting me do a free (postage and handling) upgrade when we finish the >telecommunications module. It did originally have one, but it was too weak in >by opinion. I want to make sure it has X, Y, and Z-modem so that it is fully >useful. Don't let them lose sight of the importance of getting that telecomm package into Atari Works! Another thing I advocate is some type of easy to use auto- logon ability so that it's easy for them to log onto GEnie, and the other major networks easily by just plugging their username/password into an example logon script. Damn, I never thought I'd be in so much agreement with someone from Atari. :- ) >If users think a language would be a useful thing to be bundled with Falcon, >please send me e-mail saying so. I need to persuade the marketing people. :- ) I may catch some flack from others on this, but I don't happen to feel that a programming language is all that important to be bundled with the computer. As a rule I figure that most people who are interested in programming are going to do a bit of research as to which language they want to program in and are going to make up their own minds as to which product to become involved in. A relatively simple Basic might be a good idea, I'd just hate to see it add significantly to the cost of the machine. There are other areas (like telecomm for Atari Works, etc) where I feel these resources and cash would be better spent on the "typical" new Falcon owner. Wayne ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 206 Tue Jan 12, 1993 SFRT-ASST [Kenne@SFRT] at 22:08 EST I have ClarisWorks on my powerbook. The telcom module sucks and I don't think there's a zmodem extension to the comm toolbox. It doesn't matter. If you have xmodem and access to BBS you have acess to solid freeware or shareware programs. I _personally_ think Atari should bundle as many applications with every system sold if they can afford it. If not free then at cost. It increases the standardization of the user base. It is a strange feeling to know that somebody can give you a formatted file and you know without a doubt your system will handle it. It doesn't have to compete with 3rd party vendors. And each vendor doesn't have to reinvent the wheel or guess which formats to support. Atari would set the base standard through the bundled software. I don't think a programming language is _needed_ but it would be nice to have a working standard language (which ST Basic almost came close to). ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 207 Tue Jan 12, 1993 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 23:00 EST Perhaps a 'limited' version of HiSoft. Interested/Intrigued users couod then upgrade to the "full" version from HiSoft. -Tom ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 208 Tue Jan 12, 1993 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:13 EST As long as we are talking about bundling stuff with the falcon030, has anyone ever thought of putting a directory on the falcon030 chock full to the gills with demo versions of falcon030 applications? I'm sure _nobody_ will charge a liscensing fee to put their demo on the disk. (Maybe they could _pay_ atari a small fee to have it on there?). There are TONS of awesome demo versions of things right here on GEnie! Why can't these be used to promote exactly what the falcon030 is capable of? I really believe this is a good idea. Does anyone agree? _Please_ bundle atari works too! _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 209 Tue Jan 12, 1993 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 23:38 EST TBIRD, >I really believe this is a good idea. Does anyone agree? I think this is a great idea to bundle demos, etc!! WHy not do it with all ATARI computers which have HDs? (We agree again!!) *******Brian********* Written on Wednesday 13 January 1993 at 00:28 a.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 210 Wed Jan 13, 1993 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:57 EST R.ALBRIGHT7 - No, because there's also Lotus Works and Claris Works (for the Mac). Microsoft (who's on the verge of having an anti-trust injunction brought against them by the FTC) does OWN any patent or copyright on what a 'Works' package is. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 211 Wed Jan 13, 1993 CBARRON at 01:49 EST GFA basic cheats who cares I do. You write a good program that appears as a compiled program. F40 appears , your program that is in the hands of everyone does not work anymore because it was not compiled in 6.x, although it does not use any feature not on an f30 or f40. GFA BASIC is one of the main reasons for a 24 bit address space on the falcon! The cpu has a 32 bit address space. Why reward cheaters?? Personally I don't think a language is needed, but a real modern basic that follows the rules in what it produces, produces multitos compatible execs. is of paramount importance. So far GFA does not. It grabs all by default. Bundles of demos, not a bad idea either, a good advertising ploy as the purchasers don't even have to get in contact with the developers, they have not even heard of. I am sure good powerful demos, would be easy to obtain for some high end stuff as well. Wet the whistles and they may buy the real thing. Languages on a bundle, I don't use basic so I really don't care, but if I got a computer with a programming language that produced illegal code, I would not think too much of the 'rules'. Best bet is no programming language at all. It would elimanate any support problems that way as well. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 212 Wed Jan 13, 1993 REALM [Joey] at 01:52 EST Bill, I'd like to second the motion for an Atari works bundle! I think if your looking to get the first time buyer you should include Atari Works, MultiTOS and Speedo GEMDOS plus the usual TOS/Hard Drive utilites. The rest of the stuff your including should be the optional stuff, not Atari Works. It should be first on your include list, it'll definitely appeal to the most buyers. It also might be a good idea to include the software catalogue. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 213 Wed Jan 13, 1993 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 03:50 EST If Atari includes a telecomm program as a future part of Atari Works, I suggest they work out a deal with GEnie for giving the new users (not ones who already have GEnie accounts, obviously) some sort of deal, either no sign-up fee or a few hours free time. This would benefit GEnie (increasing its user base) and make Atari look good. It probably shouldn't even cost Atari too much to make this happen. Of course, if Atari does this, they should either bundle Aladdin with the Falcon, or else make sure the AW program has some pre-made scripts to make GEnie access easy. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 214 Wed Jan 13, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:51 EST Wayne, as you said, you have left the manufacturing field and moved into a new career. The Quality Control issue is one which has been given a much higher priority lately. As you noted, having a second source is a big incentive to do a better job, and having Japan around to supply goods is a second source. Quality and productivity are very much on everyone's minds today. (I am still in the manufacturing field.) Other than being slightly behind the times, you are absolutely correct in your assesment of the difficulties inherent in trying to get a product out the door. The more complicated the product, the more problems which can show up. A computer is a very complicated product. ------------ Category 14, Topic 41 Message 215 Wed Jan 13, 1993 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 09:12 EST I have a suggestion for developers: GIVE an early version of your product to Atari, to bundle with the newest computers. After new users use your product, and become used to it, they will have flyers included in the bundle telling of your newer upgrades. They will be much more likely to buy an upgrade to a program they know how to use, than to buy a product they are not familiar with. If it is bundled with the computer, they will use it. ------------- I vote to bundle a language with the computers. I get more fun from the computer by learning how to program than from anything else. I am not good at it, but I keep at it. Right now, I am studying from Clayton Walnum's C- manship. ------------