==================================================================== (C) 1992 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== Category 14, Topic 20 Message 1 Thu Dec 03, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:53 EST How could Atari pull off the original ST in 85' and now has trouble with rabbits being stuck in the hat today with the Falcon? Easy, in 85' they were a $500+ MILLION/yr company, today they are a $70M/yr company and dropping. Cash flow....there's just nothing in the world quite like it ;-) Of course in 85' they were looked on as being in trouble, because they _had been_ at $1.5 BILLION/yr in sales at the pinnacle of the video game craze. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 2 Fri Dec 04, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:32 EST SAM-RAPP - Well, Roswell, which is 15 miles north of Atlanta (how 'neighborly' are we?). Thanks for the info on the PSG/Falcon. It seems kind of a silly way to handle the PSG, but I guess they have their reasons. Do you know if there IS a TSR to lower the PSG output volume? I was also wondering about DMX and the Falcon030, but my interest was whether the Falcon's DSP could 'decode' the DMX transmissions and output selected DMX 'stations' via the stereo outputs. EXPLORER.5 - That's 44.1kHz, not 44.5MHz. J.PIERCE5 - But that leave 100/month unaccounted for! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 3 Fri Dec 04, 1992 S.NOAH [Stu] at 02:44 EST D.ENGEL I tried to answer some of the questions you had in your message, 206, in a new topic which I set up in Category 18. I would give you the topic number, but since I am posting this letter and setting up the topic simultaneously via Aladdin I am not aware of it yet myself. I would have posted it here but since it dealt a lot with Atari history rather than the Falcon I posted it there. Stu ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 4 Fri Dec 04, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 03:20 EST Gee, Wonder how a 486SX scrolls TWICE as fast as the lower end Falcon? Why not compare it to the 50 Mhz 586? Then compare the suggested list price of the Falcon to the mail order 486SX machines. Lets try to be little fair in our comparisons. Comparing the Falcon to a 386 with all the same features would be a closer comparison. Until the Falcons actually released you should also be comparing list prices. Don't forget to compare the amount of RAM and storage space required to operate each machine. 1024x768x24bit is nice if you have a spare 3 megs of RAM just to buffer the screen. A lot of this stuff is impractical for the first time home user. Besides the Falcon is finished, done, etched in stone... Atari is going to sell what they have wether you buy it or not. All I'm waiting on is when... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 5 Fri Dec 04, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 06:28 EST REALM, Look at the prices that IBM (!!!) is advertising in USA Today for 12/3/92. They are very competitve with the F030 except they include a VGA monitor!! I know that they don't have DSP or MIDI or the sound capabilities of the F030, but remember that Atari said they were aiming at the bottom end market. I know the F030 is a fine machine and if it ever hits the market it should sell like hotcakes. Atari needs to produce, distribute, market and advertise. And back up their product with service. I would hope that as the volume of F030 sales goes up (optimistic, aren't I) that the price will drop. Bob-B, A suggestion, if it isn't too late. If the expected marked for the F030 is the bottom end market, I would expect that those folks will buy 'bottom end' amplified speakers. Most of those speakers don't have volume controls. I know from experience with my MSTe that the DMA sound out of the Atari will overdrive those speakers. No problem, since the volume can be set with the sound CPX, EXCEPT for autobooting programs like copy-protected games. (I gotta turn off my cheapies to play Lemmings.) Since many of those bottom end buyers will probably be playing a lot of games, games not expressly written for the F030, they are not going to be happy about having to turn their speakers off to play games. My simple suggestion is have TOS set the volume to half level at bootup. It would be no problem for normal use since the volume would be reset by the CPX, and allow use of "el cheapo" powered speakers with autobooting games. Just a minor thought. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 6 Fri Dec 04, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 12:07 EST Dave, You keep on hitting on same points, just saying them a little bit differently. :) You say that people that know computers will know that 32 Mhz is faster than 16 Mhz. True enough. But how many times have we been treated to the stories of the DOS user with Windows being outrun by an 8 Mhz machine? Too many to count! Again, you've fallen prey to the "Put a bigger engine in 'er, that'll make her faster" mentality of the DOS machines. Yes, the processor in the Atari Falcon030 is "only" 16Mhz. But there is also a BLiTTER chip running (which the clones don't have), a DMA chip running (which the clones don't have), and a DSP running (which for about $600 the clones CAN have), and an optional FPU. In short, we provide a lot of tools for developers to use to speed things up without just getting them a bigger hammer! I liked the line about seeing higher rez with 16 million colors... which completely ignores the fact that the human eye can't see that 'many colors at once!!! :) :) Let me ask a really basic question of you Dave, have you seen an Atari Falcon030 yet? Most of those that have are pleased. Not all...but most. Your remark about preschoolers being our customers was way out of line. And I apologize if I'm coming off inflammatory, because that is not my intent. There is an excited base of people awaiting the machine, as others have pointed out here. KEYBOARD Magazine is the latest in the line of publications to discuss the Atari Falcon030, and they like what they saw. Mike Allen, I've seen a couple of programs that would pre-set the volume on start up, but I'm not sure how good they would be on some of those games. Thanks for the suggestion. regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 7 Fri Dec 04, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:48 EST Joey: Jerry _was_ being fiar in his comparisons. Back when the F030 was announced, and everyone believed the specs, Jerry and I argued in the "Comparisons Between machines" topic. He quoted prices and specs for machines very similar to the F030 (as it stood then). I checked up on his quotes to try and find out that he was exaggerating. As it turns out, he was telling the truth. So, I must admit that the F030 as I thought it was 'then' was in for some pretty stiff competition with cheap fast clones with good video. I thought that the speed of the F030 would be it's main advantage (because the sound is neat, but it comes 3rd on people's list of priorities in a computer). Unfortunately, the F030 I believed in was not the one I was shown. Speed is not it's forte'. I just can't see how it can compete at such a high price. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 8 Fri Dec 04, 1992 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 19:06 EST J. Richter - I agree. People who aren't too Computer literate ask others for help. I get asked all the time. I would NEVER recommend Atari to ANYONE, although I STILL refer to my PC as 'the computer I program for money' and my ST as 'the computer I program for fun'. Atari is just no longer an option for the new user. Mattias ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 9 Fri Dec 04, 1992 SLP at 19:30 EST I agree that many of the people who are comparing DOS machines are using what may have been true in the past. We recently purchased a 486SX machine with 170mb HD, 4 MB RAM, windows,mouse, SVGA multisync monitor, and 24bit accelerated video card for $1260. I can scroll multi font text in WordPerfect for Windows at about the same speed as Tempus on my ST. I will say that I've been looking at digitized pictures and for general use, 256 color is better than most of you will think. 800 x 600 at 32000 colors isn't too different from 24bit, unless you are in a situation where you demand the extra colors. Certainly I think that the Falcon should be fine for viewing CD pictures on the TV Let's give the computer a chance. I know that I wouldn't be too upset with 4 times the performance of my ST. (I would be a little bit upset at 1/2 the speed in text scrolling, but I'm willing to wait and see for myself just how fast the Falcon is in an application) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 10 Fri Dec 04, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:37 EST Bob Brodie: I'm sorry for sounding repititious, but I find myself searching for the right way to make a point which I never seem to get across because of the replies. I apologise for the comment about preschoolers with the condition that I say that your comment about your intended market seemed rather condescending, the way you put it. I'm going to be blunt now. The only reason I am going to be this way is so that my meaning is not lost due to politeness. Do not take offense ANYONE. The F030 is a vast improvement over the STe. I feel that it has as much going for it over the STe as the TT does (in terms of features). But... it does not have as much going for it over the STe as a comparable clone does (in terms of features). These features are not only the ones you purchase, but the perceived features which come with a purchase. The confidence that you spent wisely, the availability of software and service, the proximity of other users with the same machine, the security of knowing your purchase will not be an orphan, the list goes on... Your worst hurdle is in name recognition. Nobody knows that Atari even exists, let alone makes computers. You people have been silent too long. Obviously, people do not buy products based on their quality alone. You will surely agree that the Game Boy is at a serious disadvantage in the area of features, yet romps the Lynx in sales. I attribute this to the steady stream of advertisements for the Game Boy and the name recognition of Nintendo. I do not think anyone will disagree. If you guys are back in the 'Home Entertainment' arena, you have a good shot at being able to revive the recognition that the 'old' Atari once had. If you're in the computer biz, then remember that you're competing with peer pressure to get a clone because of the ability to share programs with friends/workplace/etc. It is sad but true. Everyone I know with a clone chose it because of the 'free' programs they could get for it. Period. The "intel inside" ads underscore this. All of your points about _why_ the Falcon030 was good (like BLiTTER, and the limits of the human eye, etc.) could very well be 100% true. If "I" was ignorant of these facts, then how is the average consumer supposed to find out? My point is this: I am Joe Consumer. I have some money to spend on a techno toy. How do you convince me of the following: 1) I need a Falcon030 (and not a VCR, TV, or PC) 2) The Falcon030 is better than it's competition (if any) 3) Owning one will make my friends jealous (Important to many folks) 4) The price is reasonable (whatever _that_ is) 5) Atari is a company I have heard of (Establish brand loyalty) (NOTE: List in no particular order) I don't know any way to do this without an investment in a good advertising campaign (a National one). The current strategy is clearly not working. Also, have you folks adopted a program to work towards conforming to the ISO9000 quality standards, or started a "Total Quality Program"? Programs like these have helped the company I work for _vastly_, and have worked wonders for morale. I highly recommend pursuit of these goals. I didn't mean to go this long, but I was frustrated. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 11 Fri Dec 04, 1992 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 19:42 EST > There are a lot more than 25 Atari dealers nationwide. There are more > than 3 here in Mpls/St Paul. Of course all but 1 are music stores, > but they still count. I'd be pretty surprised if it was more than 50. I don't count "dealers" who carry no hardware and only software that's 2-5 years old. Here in CT there is 1 dealer, or at least there was the last time I made the LONG trek down there about 6 months ago. It's about a 2 hour trip, and that dealer is only marginal. They had an STe, Mega STe, and TT there, but the software situation was abysmal. --------- > Pro Sound News (for those non-audio folks, its a free trade magazine sent to >audio and vidio studio owners) did a special pullout section this month on >Atari computers including a review on the Falcon 030. > Also, Keyboard magazine (January) issue has a review on the Falcon 030. > And as I mentioned before Guitar Center (and to answer someones question, >yes I work there, in Keyboards&Computers-- call me and day but Monday) has an >ad for the Falcon. A truly sad day when we have to subscribe to Music magazines to find out about computers. Next thing you know I'll have to start subscribing to GQ to find out about stereo equipment. Wayne ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 12 Fri Dec 04, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 20:01 EST I may be a bit confused here.... maybe someone can clue me in... A mega STE with 1 meg RAM costs around $600 with no HD last time I checked (several months ago). For $150 more you can buy a Falcon030 with 1 meg of RAM and no HD. This is perceived as a bad deal? -------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 13 Fri Dec 04, 1992 SANDY.W at 20:09 EST Thunderbird - Personally I think your point has been beat past the point of death and is now reaching decomposition. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 14 Fri Dec 04, 1992 SLP at 20:19 EST I forgot to ad in my last message that the best thing that the Falcon has going for it is that each and every one will have decent graphics, a DSP, 16 bit sound, etc. In other words, since it is a system designed to be used without the need for any additions, any software developer knows that he or she can use the hardware without having to worry that only 10% of the users have a DSP, or whatever. I think that you will be seeing innovative applications coming out for the Falcon that are only dreams for most other platforms (assuming developers take a risk and write for the machine, which may or may not happen) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 15 Fri Dec 04, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 20:19 EST Bob, Sliding away from the current rants for a bit, I have a technical question: Every time I've seen hardware scrolling referred to in Falcon specs, it's included the word "horizontal". Is it really limited to just left-right scrolling? I hope not, because a potential art tool is riding on omnidirectional smooth scrolling... furthermore, in overlay mode, can the overlay plane scroll independently of the back plane? Steve, I work at ICOM Simulations as a computer artist/animator. We do a lot of cartridge (SNES, Sega, etc.) and CD-ROM work, which means we also spew out artwork by the truckload. Most of that consists of sprites and background, both of which are usually cell (8x8 multicolored character) based art. Since most of the artists hate DOS (and one could hardly blame us) and we've found that the Mac OS really does its best to get in the way of productivity, I've been looking at bringing in a Falcon for a looksee. While we'd probably wait until the fabled 040 model dragged its feet into existence (we'd need some serious speed for the all-in-one art tool we're planning to write), getting one or two 030s would give us a shot at seeing how feasible the machines are for serious game graphics generation. Given that the true-color overlay mode's color palette is the same as the Super Nintendo's, and the machine has hardware scrolling (it does, doesn't it, Bob?) and the Face of "Bob" in the character set (it still has that too, doesn't it, "Bob"?), it may be an ideal interim solution until we can afford to stock up on SGIs and NeXTs... In any case, it sounds like a fun machine anyway, so I'll wait patiently for my reserved Falcon, and fie on the rest of you whiners. JerryR: THANKS for putting all the IMPORTANT words in ALL-CAPS so that I won't MISS anything IMPORTANT and I really like your RUN-ON sentences TOO!!!!!!! Thunderbird: How many times do you intend to say the same thing? Sadonecrobestiality is out of fashion, you know... --Dr. Memory ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 16 Fri Dec 04, 1992 R.HARRINGTO1 at 21:38 EST HEY GUYS! Stop wasting so much space with the same useless arguments. Some of you may be in love with your own text, but how about taking some of the repeat ideas to the privite section. ie E-mail. Mike - tired of wasting on-line time. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 17 Fri Dec 04, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 21:51 EST Falcon can handle 44.1KHz (CD) and 48.0KHz (DAT) using the built-in divide by N counter and an external master clock. Ron @ Atari Explorer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 18 Fri Dec 04, 1992 G.GRAHAM9 [Glenn] at 21:56 EST BOB BRODIE: I have just read a very disturbing article in Toronto Computes a local PC rag , about the lack of a distributer in Canada for Atari. the article was about an interview with a Mr Earle who many of us up here remember and miss very much. (Yeah! Him and Atari Canada!). Just how are dealers supposed to aquire these macxhines or any Atari products. Are they to import them individually on their own? _Unlikely_ when almost every corner here has an outlet for some PC Clone type of machine. It appears that Atari may be only a memory here already. Care to comment? P.S. I'd like nothing better than to see Atari prosper but just how are you going to pull this off? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 19 Fri Dec 04, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 22:37 EST D.ENGEL- Believe me, we've all got your point. Time and time again. And again. And again. Last month, this month, last week, this week and every day inbetween. You've expressed your point and beat it into our tiny little heads. It's just that, we're not impressed. Sorry. 80% of it winds up in the "so- what" bucket. 10% winds up in the "who cares" bucket. The last 10% falls into the "that was interesting, but let's move on" drawer. People who have seen/used/played and worked with the Falcon030 (myself included) ARE IMPRESSED. Maybe we're stupid. Maybe we're undemanding. Maybe we're simple fools. Sounds like a perfect customer base to me. };-) -Tom McComb {10:16 pm} Friday, December 4, 1992 ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 20 Fri Dec 04, 1992 L.NEILANDS [Leo] at 22:46 EST Hi!- This Canadian =+= can hardly wait for the Falcon as well! - Here's my input after talking to my local retailers and reading the brochure...Long, long ago I started with a C64 (actually it was a TI994A) and tried doing what my imagination and intuition wanted. I didn't know it then but the disk drives were horribly slow and the programs all completely different from each other....12 years later I have an Amiga and guess what...the disk drives are horribly slow and the programs are a mess....BUT!...because it was the 80's and I had $$$ I also bought a MEGA2 ST! ---That ST is still my favorite machine - it boots up quickly, the screen is super intuitive, the programs are consistent, and all the peripherals work!....... ......now an idea.... ...the brochure suggests many uses (much like C= did on their boxes) and what ATARI HAS to do is follow up on these suggestions (read 'promises') to the Purchaser. Uses like: >"The Flight Simulator you've never seen before" >"Surround -Sound for the VCR" >"running a home security system" plus simple DTP, modeming(Aladdin), music(Casio) ...etc. To give the machine a Booster Rocket Send-off do what C= never did right. Help surround the Falcon with a team of reasonably well- developed productive, creative, entertaining SOFTWARE...maybe start with the best of ST but also....you have an incredible wealth of extremely good software in Europe! Translators and some nice packaging (Hey their magazines are doing it all the time and selling V.1 commercial disks right on the COVER for 5$ !) No clone can easily assemble that much no-hassle creativity and entertainment. In fact you could put that display right next to a clone in a thousand stores without a worry.................Leo ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 21 Fri Dec 04, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:00 EST Sandy.W: I think that repeatedly telling someone to stop beating a dead horse is worse than just beating a dead horse because it is hypocrisy. Thank you for your opinion. Chazz: I'll ignore your insults because this is not CAT18, and even answer your questions: 1) 'Vertical' fine scrolling is easily achieved by using 'Horizontal' fine scrolling, only you horizontally scroll the maximum width of your hoizontal field plus one pixel. In english: if the F030 works like the STe, then all you'd have to do is add the number of bytes in each scanline to the register pointing to the screen RAM, and bingo! You've scrolled vertically 'upward' through ram. Use the negative for the reverse action. You should have no trouble. 2) Unless I miss my guess (and I'm sure someone will jump down my throat if I do) you're misinterpreting what 'overlay' mode does. As far as I can tell 'overlay' mode is a mode that lets you place your graphics on top of a Genlock'ed (with external Genlock box) Video signal. Pixels with 'overlay' bit set will allow the video to show through. I do not believe that 'overlay' means having different planes of graphics which stack up and scroll/move independently. Only videogames and Amigas do that. However, you probably can scroll the graphics on top of the video plane. But I don't think that is what you need. dribrednuh\ -------------------- 'cause I'll stand on my head to prove I want Atari to succeed ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 22 Fri Dec 04, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 23:00 EST Just so we all keep in mind what Atari is up against with getting *BIG* name developers to port to the Falcon savor this sobering point: Sierra nixed producing new games for the Amiga (A4000 and A1200 included) a few weeks ago. How many Amiga's were sold over the last year? I believe the figure is 1 *million* world-wide! (Denny correct me if I'm wrong) One MILLION units sold and they still dropped Amiga! Not encouraging for any "alternative" platform, period. I wouldn't get too upset if Microsoft and Norton don't start cranking out titles for the Falcon come spring............. Best All, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 23 Sat Dec 05, 1992 LYRE at 01:29 EST Wayne, Are you talking about Computer's Etc (Fairfield) or Darrek Electronics (New/North Haven area)? Just wondering since I've heard of Darrek but haven't gone into it. Otherwise, Computer's Etc is the only other CT Atari dealer that I am aware of. If the later, I agree with your assessment. -=-=-=-=-=- Sandy.W, Although I personally am not a fan of Thunderbird's comments, I will admit to learning a few things about ST internals from his posts. I would also have to state that his last message was much more coherent this time then previously. -=-=-=-=-=- Thunderbird, I stated once before in this topic that people posting should try to be positive. I realize that when registering a complaint this is not really possible. But when discussing something, it is better to state a problem and a potential solution and go on from thier. Doing so stimulates discussion (what this topic is intended for) and has the added potential of altering Atari's next computer model. Potential problems do need to be addressed and discussed, but doing so is only acceptable when their is still time to address these concerns. The Falcon 030 is a "fait accompli"; it is designed and in production (although not being sold currently, I am sure that their is a wharehouse with Falcons ready for shipment somewhere). Therefore the focus of this topic shifts from one of debating the advantage or disadvantage of the Falcon design to providing information about this computer, it's capabilities, programs, etc. Do not let my comments discourage you from posting. But please post messages which pertain to the discussion of the Falcon as it exists today. Lyre ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 24 Sat Dec 05, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:45 EST B.WILLIS3 - KEYBOARD's main computer 'guru' has always preferred the Mac over all others and most of his columns about computers and MIDI seem quite biased in that respect. K.HOUSER - I used to be in Athens and there were about 7 S.J.'s there listed in the phone book, so I can imagine there's a lot more in the Atlanta area. Anyway, I'm not in the phone book (it's not under my name). I don't know if you can even BUY a MSTE in the Atlanta area anymore, not to mention even a regular STE. The best place in town now seems to be Micro Music, but I haven't been there in a while. I hope they, or at least some other music store, carries the Falcon030 because I hate to HAVE to drive to NC just to SEE one (no offense, Sheldon -- you may see me up there soon ANYWAY ). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 25 Sat Dec 05, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 03:11 EDT Okay, enough is enough. Thunderbird, you have had your say. Please take your comments to Category 18. This is an infomation topic for the Falcon030. It is designed to all potential customers to ask questions of Atari. You are continuing to state your same opinion (which many will disagree with) over and over again. Please take it to Category 18. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. -- John PS. Please don't make me move your messages! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 26 Sat Dec 05, 1992 M.LYDA [mike] at 03:26 EST Soul Manager; I'm with you all the way.. I like the mouse. I like the keyboard. (g) I'm positive the Falcon 030 isn't vapor ware, and I really don't care whether it has a 16bit data bus.. or RCA jacks! I don't care! <:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:><:> now to get on topic since this IS a topic to ASK Atari questions about the Falcon 030. I read in the brochure that one of the uses could be for "a video producer who requires the ultimate sound track for a video production"... and I was wondering if anyone was considering using the DSP to sample audio to synch with film? Matching voice with image is a difficult task, but most high end synch systems use something similar.... and cost a LOT more. oh, and I think Leo had the right idea in getting the european market involved in coming up with the software to complete some of the ideas for uses listed in the brochure. Maybe you could release the Falcon 030 to European developers first, and get some of the advertising folks from ST Format (and other mags...) to help with the advertising. :) mike p.s. still I haven't seen a post that definately says that there is a word processor bundled with the Falcon 030... especially one that will import Word Perfect documents. That seems to be the big hang up of most of the people I've mentioned an "alternative machine" to. If this is possible, it might be something to mention in any ads, etc. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 27 Sat Dec 05, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 03:58 EST T-Bird, your still comparing street prices to the Falcons suggested list price. The thing isn't even out yet... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 28 Sat Dec 05, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 08:05 EST Steve, There is a store a little closer also. It is Micro Computer Depot in Columbia, SC. Still far away but, a little closer. :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 29 Sat Dec 05, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 08:19 EST Sandy, I couldn't have said it more elegantly myself. *******Brian********* Written on Saturday 05 December 1992 at 09:16 a.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 30 Sat Dec 05, 1992 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 08:37 EDT >My point is this: I am Joe Consumer. I have some money to spend on a >techno toy. How do you convince me of the following: >1) I need a Falcon030 (and not a VCR, TV, or PC) 2) The Falcon030 is >better than it's competition (if any) 3) Owning one will make my friends >jealous (Important to many folks) 4) The price is reasonable (whatever >_that_ is) 5) Atari is a company I have heard of (Establish brand >loyalty) You put them in stores where people can touch them, run them, find out how powerful and easy they are to operate, and let them take one home with them TODAY. mike.k ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 31 Sat Dec 05, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 09:28 EST NOTE: This post pertains to the select few who have been engaging over the past few weeks in "Thunderbird Bashing". Wow! Such a plethora of comments to me and nary a one about the Falcon030. "Blah blah blah blah... Redundant redundant redundant..." What a bunch of hypocrites (look it up). Why do I say this? Simple because persons "A", "B", "C", and "D" assault my positions, challenge my information, attack my credibility, deny my motivations, and insult me directly. If I post one message in my own defense, persons "A", "B", "C", "D", "E", "F", "G", "H", and "I" start squealing like a stuck pig about how opinions are not appropriate for this topic. Get real. We must not forget TOS programmer "J" who uses threats to use his special privileges on GEnie to squelch ONLY those opinions who oppose his own. He ignores all of the other malicious insulters, because they share his biased views. Face facts guys, you are a shrinking minority. I'm sorry that my posts shatter the illusions of your world where everything is fine and dandy. Change the name of this topic to "Virtual Reality" so you can all fantasize about how wonderful everything is, and I won't post here anymore. At least people won't mistake this for a place to gather _unbiased_ information about the Falcon030. You 'people' could learn a lot from individuals like Bob Brodie and Lyre. They disagree with what others say, yet they engage in conversation and debate with a modicum of dignity in their messages. You don't hear them brandishing about insults and threats. The fate of this topic is in YOUR hands... ___________________________ \hunderbird My sincere apoligies to anyone who came to this topic to read about the Falcon030, and found this off topic message. We can only hope that the hypocrites have learned something from this post, and we will finally be able to get back to the FALCON which is why we came here. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 32 Sat Dec 05, 1992 SANDY.W [sysop] at 09:50 EST Hypocrisy? That doesn't even make sense. You are right about one thing though. This is supposidly not category 18. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 33 Sat Dec 05, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 11:51 EST Just refresh people memory this topic is: >Discussions on the Atari Falcon 030 Computer, being unveiled at the >Duesseldorf Atari Messe August 21-23 in Germany. Be sure to check the CO >transcript from the library, file #25262, FALCONCO.LZH Perhaps, a lot of the banter that is placed here should be in cat 18? It would be a refreshing change. *******Brian********* (TOPIC COP) Written on Saturday 05 December 1992 at 12:43 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 34 Sat Dec 05, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 12:01 EST What a crock. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 35 Sat Dec 05, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 12:39 EST The header says "Discussions...", seems to me that's just about what goes on. Maybe the header needs to be changed to "Atari provided information about the Falcon030 computer...and THAT'S ALL." ;-) None of the _discussions_ have violated the letter and spirit of the topic header, so if you don't like the activities here, change the purpose of the topic. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 36 Sat Dec 05, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 14:41 EST I agree with J.Allen > It seems that all that has been going on in this topic is a discussion. I don't mind reading D.Engel statements and opinions. I find myself more informed, and I have not changed my mind....I want a falcon. So if everyone could stop taking this personaly the discussion can go on. I guess if I worked at Atari I wouldn't be enjoying it. Let the facts speak. If the Falcon does what you want within your budget...buy one! As for competitive pricing> I said this once before. A 14 meg falcon with Lexicor software will cost me around $3000 cdn. An equivalent Mac package with matching software capability would cost me around $5000 to $6000 on a Mac. I think that's pretty competive. Atari > Since Atari is going to be pusing their new products as the eventual ultimate multimedia machines have you been speaking to developers to write software somewhat Adobe Premiere for Macs. The quicktime(tm) system with this software is an easy to use tool that could sell Falcons like hotcakes. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 37 Sat Dec 05, 1992 J.KUDRON [Jim~ST Sysop] at 15:04 EST Messages #1-214 have been archived and are in the library-File #26821. FALCON11.ARC **NOTE** Due to _heavy_ message traffic in this Topic (160 messages in one week!), I have had to archive messages less than one week old. I apologize for any inconvenience this causes anyone. Jim Kudron 5Dec92 ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 38 Sat Dec 05, 1992 J.P.C. at 15:51 EST $5,000 - $6,000 for a comparable Mac? I don't think so. Staples Office Supply will sell you a Performa 600 CD, 32Mhz 68030, 5Mbytes RAM, 160Mbyte HD and 13" RGB monitor for $2,899. Now, I'm not sure just what software will be required to access and 'play with' Kodak's PhotoCD images but... Note: I called Staples 800# just an hour ago. They had 18 of these systems left, with ten already promised. Hmmm. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 39 Sat Dec 05, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 16:06 EST T-Bird, I've been rather silent (amazing!) in this topic, but I believe that you are in the wrong. Your point has been made and many of us agree with you. I too did not appreciate being mis-led by Atari as to the real specifications of the F030. By continually reitereating the same points you only dilute the truth of you statements and alienate potential supporters. The 'cutsey' tag lines are irritating. Personal attacks on TOWNS, who has consistantly been the only one from Atari who has tried to keep us informed, are out of line. I don't read many of the posts as "Thunderbird Bashing." Folks are just trying to say "You've made your point. Now stop and let us get on with information about the F030 AS IT EXISTS." You seem to know your stuff from a technical standpoint. I appreciate your input on these subjects. However if you continue your tirades you will not only drive people to ignore your posts (which would be a shame since there is some good information in them) but also to ignore this topic. There are places for your continued inputs, both in CAT 18 and the 'Future Falcon' topic in this cat. Please don't assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a) looking at Atari through rose colored glasses, b) hypocritical or c) Thunderbird bashing. As a piece of friendly advice, you don't need to get the last word in. Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 40 Sat Dec 05, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 16:24 EST J.P.C. > In cdn funds $5000 - $6000 16 meg + software and video cards needed to do what I will be able to do with a Falcon and Lexicor software. I was all excited about Macs when I saw them run, then I started asking prices. A paint prg which doesn't do more than Cyber paint ($89cdn) is $300(cdn). Your 2899 US price is 3515 Cdn without software. Falcon will cost me 2300 at most and I already have software! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 41 Sat Dec 05, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:29 EST Mike: Woah! Just one second there! While I appreciate the fact that you respect my position, and offer advice. I take _extreme_ exception to your stating that I engaged in "Personal Attacks on TOWNS.". I was demonstrating his hypocritical error in making what can only be interpreted as a threat to use his GEnie privaleges to squelch me for posting off topic opinion, while everyone else here is free to bash myself and Jerry to their hearts content. Anyone new to the topic (or reading 'clips' in Z*Net os STReport) could misconstrue your comments and believe I actually slandered Mr. Townsend. Jerry: Why do you capitalize the "BIRD" part of my name? I was curious... As unwise as it is to say so here, you hit the nail on the head. You and I have many times agreed that the Falcon030 _is_ what it is, but perhaps some people do not work in the computer industry and realize how simple CERTAIN changes to a design can be, even at this stage in production. Keyboards are one of the _last_ pieces added on these 1040 style machines, and they plug into the motherboard with a ribbon cable. I suspect that they just have tons of leftover 1040 keyboard assemblies that they want to get rid of (another economical benefit to their choice of case design). Most of the messages here don't even talk about the Falcon anymore. This seems more like a group of fundamentalists trying to file lawsuits against decent honest hardworking parents for disciplining their child. I must commend Mr. Brodie as an oasis of sensibility in this cesspool of debauchery and aggression. His well conceived comments are quite refreshing. It is nice to be talked 'TO' instead of talked 'AT'. He is doing a highly commendable job, even though his opinions differ from mine. Keep in mind that it is in his best interest to keep things positive here, so opinions will differ on occasion. _________________________ \hunderbird 'cause "irritating" is what tag lines are FOR! (advertising trick) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 42 Sat Dec 05, 1992 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 18:48 EST >Are you talking about Computer's Etc (Fairfield) or Darrek Electronics >(New/North Haven area)? Just wondering since I've heard of Darrek but haven't >gone into it. Otherwise, Computer's Etc is the only other CT Atari dealer >that I am aware of. If the later, I agree with your assessment. I've been in both stores and yes, Computer's Etc was the one I was talking about. It's gone severely downhill in the Atari area (IMHO) since the big change in ownership (or manager?) a year or more ago. Darrek's had quite a bit of stuff the last time I was in there, but as I said you had to dig (and I DO mean dig!) through piles of 5 year old junk software to find anything current. No St's on display either. The store is basically 6000 sq ft's worth of inventory crammed/piled into 500 sq ft. The last time I was there (almost 2 years ago) they supported Atari, Amiga, PC's, and I think Mac's. There is also a "dealer" in East Hartford, but it's run out of a spare room in his home, and he has no hardware, or software to speak of. The room is crammed to the gills with machines being repaired. He can order anything I want but doesn't carry anything. Those last two places (Darrek, and East Hartford Computer Repair) may be on Atari's list of "dealers" but they will never see any results out of those dealers simply because people won't buy there. The image you get when you walk through the door scares you off. I can and will deal with either of them because I already own a machine and just need software. However the new users that the Falcon is aimed at will not buy at "dealers" such as these. I hope that the situation isn't the same everywhere else in the country, but from the people I have talked to that's about the way it goes. For every 3-4 dealers only 1 could be considered 'viable' by any stretch of the imagination. Wayne ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 43 Sat Dec 05, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 19:39 EST Wayne, Sad.. but I am afraid.. VERY TRUE Thunderbird... the big BIRD is gone.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 44 Sat Dec 05, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 19:59 EST J.Towns, Whoa, *Please* tell me that remark about moving T-Bird's messages was "tongue- firmly-planted-in-check!" There's alot of sublety that text only messages miss. I've respected your efforts to provide accurate information to the Atari on-line community. I must give you the benefit of the doubt regarding that quib. Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 45 Sat Dec 05, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 21:24 EST Thunderbird: How much are you willing to sell it for. I am sure some would buy. The above regarding an IGN Author feature that you discussed having. To all: Please stop calling names, throwing insults etc. Or I will be forced to place this in Category 18 due to the emotional level of this topic. A good rule of thumb is debate objects, not people. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 46 Sat Dec 05, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:45 EST Darlah: Putting the finishing touches on the "Noise Filter" ACCessory I wrote is about #3 on my list of software projects. I'm working on a PC (echhh!) database application, and next comes a demo version of my game for evaluation by a famous software company who requested it. The only feature I have left to add is the automatic Thunderbird override password which allows the filter to pass any messages I place a certain code into. (Just kidding) Back to this wretched clone... bye. ___________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 47 Sun Dec 06, 1992 J.FOY2 [JLF] at 00:33 EST I want to know who's burning my Money with 200%+ of wasted space. Facts,Info.... That's what I want . And a Bird under the Tree!!!!!! Please!!! Merry X day U.K. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 48 Sun Dec 06, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 02:16 EST T-Bird, well, it looked like an attack on TOWNS to me. Perception is part of what communications is all about. Maybe I have misconstrued the subject of this topic. The way I read it is discussions about what the F030 is, not what it might have been. (You and I agree that it could have been better and Atari could have been more honest with us.) Given that, I read TOWNS' post not as "Only positive F030 posts" but "Only F030 posts about what the F030 IS." Yep, I read TOWNS post as a threat, but not hypocritical. It IS good to see Brodie active once again. I'm running up one hell of a GEnie bill attending his RTCs. 8^} Mike Allen 'cause irritating ads can have a negative effect. (Something the ad agencies are finding out) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 49 Sun Dec 06, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 09:42 EST It's not so much what Thunderbird is saying, it's just that it keeps getting said over and over and over and..... It just appears that he HAS to have the last word and will not let it rest until he does. That is the only problem I have as I do agree with some of the stuff said. I haven't got any problem with people expressing their opinions, just don't do it continuously. We heard/read the first time. 100+K of the same thing from the same person gets old. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 50 Sun Dec 06, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 10:26 EST I was wondering if anyone has tested GFA Basic programs on the Falcon? How did they run? Did any of the stuff that broke on the TT, work on the Falcon? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 51 Sun Dec 06, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:32 EST I hate all these people who hypocratically waste all this space repeating the same lectures about my intentions OVER and OVER and OVER again... There must be a lack of Falcon030 success stories to recount, huh Jerry? _______________________ \hunderbird 'cause frankly Scarlet, I don't give a d_mn! "The Last" --------------------+ | | V W O R D ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 52 Sun Dec 06, 1992 C.ECKERT [Lime] at 11:07 EST I hope so! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 53 Sun Dec 06, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 12:28 EST >Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic. Now that would a nice change for everyone. Thank you Mike. I will reiterate that this topic SHOULD be for discussion about the Falcon but constant flaming, bickering and the like should be in cat 18. > Most of the messages here don't even talk about the Falcon anymore. This >seems more like a group of fundamentalists trying to file lawsuits against >decent honest hardworking parents for disciplining their child. Exactly!! Why not if we all get back on topic. *******Brian*********(TOPIC COP) Written on Sunday 06 December 1992 at 12:34 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 54 Sun Dec 06, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 12:58 EST For the record, I find threats of moving messages as some type of "hand slapping punishment" to get people to tow the line in politically correct posting unacceptable. If this trend continues *I* will be forced to discontinue use of the Atari RT as part of my Genie activities and find another telecomm service to meet my Atari related informational needs. I have discontinued use of Prodigy, CIS, AOL, and Delphi over the last year because I felt Genie and the Atari RT best met my needs and with Aladdin is the most cost effectve. I though, have little tolerance for this type of upper echelon intervention. Best, -Chuck- 'cause once they're done with Thunderbird, they'll come after YOU....' ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 55 Sun Dec 06, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:18 EST Mike Allen, Well said. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 56 Sun Dec 06, 1992 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 15:01 EST Chuck, the Atari ST RT is happy to hear all kinds of opinions on any topic... so long as they are posted in the right topic. This policy exists because many users in the past, and some even now, complain about the waste of their money reading messages that have nothing to do with the topic(s) they pay to read. Category 18 is the place where anyone can freewheel in their posts. Readers of 18 expect this and do not complain when it happens. A number of people have mentioned that the discussion here is getting very repetitive and far off the actual topic. That is why Brian has mentioned moving off-topic messages to 18. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 57 Sun Dec 06, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 15:16 EST In the spirit of getting back to our regularly scheduled topic: I wonder if Atari could post a list of software that has been tested on the F030 and which programs are and aren't compatible? I'm sure this will make a big difference for present Atari owners when it comes to making the decisison about buying a Falcon. Bob B and Bill R have both stated that the F030 is 'very' compatible. I'd like to know how compatible is 'very.' I know that, although I'd not go back to tos 1.xx, I was quite disapointed in the incompatibility of several software packages with my MSTe. The bottom line, of course, is 'will Falcon run on the Falcon?' 8^} I'd also like to know if anyone has (or is going to) write an app that will allow attaching sound files to the pics in the PhotoCD? My folks have many 35mm slides dating back to before WWII that are starting to deteriorate that I would like to put on PhotoCD and generate narratives to go with them. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 58 Sun Dec 06, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 15:18 EST Thunderbird - I remember being told, by either Bob Brodie or John Townsend, that the hardware guys had played with a number of keyboard designs. And that they settled on one that had good feel. If this was fact, then they are NOT using old 1040 keyboards. Either way, I really don't think they have tons of parts inventory. Where would they keep it? They sold off their mfg facilities, and simply order complete machines from their far east suppliers, based on Atari prints. Darlah - A GFA program to achieve IGN AUTH would be a half hour task to put together. And would take about five minutes to run, after each Aladdin Pass 1 call. The messages could be either deleted entirely from the Aladdin .MSG file, or moved to the back of the file. From there, they are easy to ignore, and yet easy to refer to when required. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 59 Sun Dec 06, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 16:06 EST The December 1992 issue of "New Media (Multimedia Technologies for Desktop Computer Users)" has a 1/4-page blurb about the Falcon030, complete with picture. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 60 Sun Dec 06, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 17:24 EST J.NESS The keyboard I typed on at Comdex WAS a 1040... same exact feel as my "old" 1040 and friends STe (which is now for sale, he wanted a Falcon for Christmas, but when they were'nt available he bought 486-33 for $900!) Mr. Brodie or Mr. Townsand, Is there a CHANCE that ATARI might add a decent keyboard (and mouse for that matter) to the Falcon030 for the USA market? Don't you feel a more professional keyboard and mouse would attract more buyers and make us old loyal ATARIANS happy? How much could it cost to use the Mega4 or MegaSTE keyboard internals? Don't you feel a NICE system in the OVER $1200 price range deserves it? I am being VERY serious about this! (I would be shocked to receive a reply on this one!.. Please surprise me!). Surely ATARI Corp. can't expect folks to RIP apart their NEW Falcon at THEIR expense and correct this deficiency! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 61 Sun Dec 06, 1992 C.CASSADAY [Chris C.] at 17:50 EST Jim Allen: ie schematics for Falcon RAM Board. Yes! Two friends of mine are interested in producing Falcon RAM boards. Please send ANY information via GE-mail. Thanks! Chris Cassaday ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 62 Sun Dec 06, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:33 EST J.NESS If Atari operates it's manufacturing (either inhouse or out) like every other company in the world, then the 1040 style keyboard is an assembly whose design probably hasn't changed since 1987. After thinking about it, I recall someone stating that the F030 supports 300DPI mice, which means they cannot just stick a 1040 keyboard in there because the keyboard microcontroller (MC6301) handles the mouse. However, the 'physical' design of the keyboard, i.e. the circuit board, the plastic housing, the keycap molds, the mechanical springs, screws, wires, connectors, resistors, diodes, etc. would cost $$$ to redesign. A simple program change to the 6301 would be all that is required to convert a manufacturer of 1040STe keyboards to a manufacturer of Falcon030 keyboards. This would save a TON of $$$. This is why we have the 1040 CASE and KEYBOARD. I _strongly_ suspect that the Mega ST case did not have the room for the new machine, and probably the Mega ST case and keyboard tooling were scrapped when it was discontinued. I was a manufactuing engineer for a penny pincher for over 4 years, and I know how they think. ________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 63 Sun Dec 06, 1992 LEXICOR2 [Ringo] at 18:36 EST Ed. That is great news give us more, please!! Ringo ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 64 Sun Dec 06, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 19:06 EST J.Richter Your last entry re: keyboard is more suited in topic 41 Future Falcons. (No I did not move it.) There is rumours of a Mega Falcon or whatever you want to call it with this feature. I wouldn't hold my breathe over the 030 design changing this late. *******Brian********* Written on Sunday 06 December 1992 at 08:00 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 65 Sun Dec 06, 1992 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 22:41 EST > I _strongly_ suspect that the Mega ST case did not have the room for the >new machine, and probably the Mega ST case and keyboard tooling were scrapped >when it was discontinued. I hope that's not true! The Mega ST case was the ONLY case Atari has even gotten close to right! (IMHO) Plus the keyboard was head and shoulders above the 1040's even without taking into consideration that the keyboard and CPU stayed where they belonged (I.E. NOWHERE NEAR EACH OTHER!) I never did care for the original ST case (even though I owned both a 520 and 1040), and I don't care if they put a Cray for $500 inside that stupid Pizza Box case of the TT/Mega STe I either wouldn't buy it, or would immediately move it into a REAL case. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 66 Sun Dec 06, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 23:07 EST J.RICHTER - As I think I said before, the quality of the keyboard has virtually no impact on a purchaser's choice of computer (I have to say "virtually" since you seem to be an exception to the rule). The perceived value of the machine is what software it will run. If Atari had to make a decision whether to increase keyboard quality or bundle some useful software with the machine, then I'd say they made the right choice. Granted, the hardened computer user will prefer the standard clone-type keyboard feel, but really, someone has to have _very_ narrow vision to refuse to purchase a computer solely on the basis of keyboard feel. T-bird - You have many valuable ideas to share and you are often an important part of this topic. But it is the opinion of many users here that you need to know when to lay off. Harping on the same issues over and over is really of no use to anyone, and I would prefer not to have to form the opinion that you need to see your name in print to feel important. I am not calling for your banishment or anything, I simply want to see positive feedback from you (note: this does not mean that everything you say has to be sprinkled with rosebuds, but it _does_ mean that there should be some point to your posts other than being cute or self-justifying). Please continue to share your experience and intelligence; please stop inundating us with redundancy and wise-a__ attitude. Regarding the post on business seminars, etc. My company has begun to adopt several of the ideas found in _Thriving on Chaos_, by Tom Peters. While most books of this sort contain a good share of crap, I think Atari would do well to emulate some of the strategies discussed in the book (they are even mentioned, albeit not as a positive example). Finally, I got my first real look at Photo CD today (via my local Computer City store), and I must say that I am impressed to the nth degree. This is the technology that Atari needs for the future... and guess what- it's got it! Bob Brodie, make sure Atari rides this wagon for the long haul... Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 67 Mon Dec 07, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:04 EST DARLAH - I have no qualms about throwing this into category 18 as long as a REAL Falcon030 topic is started here. There are about 4 Falcon topics now in this BB and all of them almost ONLY contain pointless bitchings and rantings. I've been tempted to IGN PERM all of them and just start using GEmail A LOT to ask different people about Falcon questions and for general Falcon info (so if SEVERAL of you here start seeing a lot of GEmail messages from me soon, don't be surprised ). Activity has increased by about 100% or more in these topics, yet there's less information in them than before, so it's just becoming wasteful. Judging from the pictures in the December issue of ST FORMAT, it appears as though Atari uses only two different Falcon030 RAM boards -- one for either 1MB or 4MB (one of the RAM boards has "1/4 MEG" written on it) and one for 16MB. The 1/4MB board looks as though it holds 8 chips on it, so I imagine that the 1/4MB board uses 8 256k x 4 DRAM's for 1MB and 8 1Mb x 4 DRAM's for 4MB. The 16MB board has 16 chips on one side, so I guess it has 16 chips on EACH side and uses 32 4Mb x 1 DRAM's for 16MB. This would make sense since, according to some, 4Mb x 4 DRAM's are harder to find and, therefore, possibly more expensive. Anyway, since (if) the 1MB and 4MB models use the same board, it MAY be possible (for people who know what they're doing) to replace the 256k x 4 DRAM's on a 1MB board with 1Mb x 4 DRAM's and upgrade it to 4MB yourself. Since we don't have pricings from Atari yet on their F030 RAM boards, it's kinda hard to say if this is really worth doing. However, if they're charging $200 for an extra 3MB RAM (a whopping $67 per megabyte -- Yikes!!!) on their Falcon030 pricings, chances are their RAM boards aren't going to be much less expensive, if at all. If Atari REALLY DID have competitively-priced RAM, the 4/0 model F030 should only SELL for about $75- $100 more than the 1/0 model, but so far dealer prices listed have been around $175-$200 more (like the list price). If any of you want to see a screenshot of HiSoft's TruePaint (and what the Falcon030's graphics are capable of), just look on page 12 of the December issue of ST FORMAT or the back cover of the December issue of ATARI ST USER. It looks very nice, and I like the 3D-look of TOS 4.0 (or at least the GEM windows) quite a bit. Now I just want to see this puppy...err...BIRD in person! Also, some U.S. dealers are expecting initial shipments of Falcon030 machines TOMORROW (Monday, December 7th) with more shipments arriving the following week. AND at least one person has heard that his dealer has set prices for the Falcon030 1/0, 4/0, and 4/65 machines at around $650, $850, and $1050, respectively. If you have some in this week, Sheldon, I'd be VERY interested to know as I may make a 3 hour trek up there to see it in action. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 68 Mon Dec 07, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:33 EST Soul Manager, You really think buyers would not refuse to purchase a NEW computer system if they found the keyboard design poor? I would like to see that one put to a vote! considering how many OTHER choices consumers will have.. many of us here sold our 1040's for Mega's and that WAS one of THE main reasons! Were you there at Comdex to see some of the SOUR looks when they typed on the Falcon030 you might think differently!! I mean ZERO tactle feed-back.. having to have the volume turned up on your monitor to type! (and the monitor you purchase for the Falcon030 may not even have volume controls). Also, what makes you think ATARI could'nt change suppliers for the keyboard internals? My company is constantly changing suppliers for things like this! If its THAT EASY to add a TT030 keyboard kit, why not have ATARI do it for you!! As far as going to "Future Falcons" section to voice my opinions.. I believe this is the future Falcons section . If they don't get this one RIGHT and make at least SOME changes.. well.. I just want ATARI to be successfull.. and with the current packaging I just can't see that happening.. TRUST ME folks just do not want the "Home Computer Look" and especially for over $1200!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 69 Mon Dec 07, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 14:06 EDT The ST Compatibility modes are created separately from the Falcon030 modes. Only the Falcon030 modes can be made to overscan. The memory controller in the Falcon030 will only handle combinations of 1 Meg, 4 Meg, or 14 Meg. That is it. This isn't a limitation of TOS, its the way the hardware was designed. You can't patch the hardware to do something it isn't capable of doing. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 70 Mon Dec 07, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 18:35 EST Darlah, No need to buy the IGN AUT program from D.ENGEL, there's an Aladdin script already out that does it. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 71 Mon Dec 07, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:27 EST Soul Manager: I gave your suggestions about my attitude the attention they deserved. Anything else? _____________________ \hunderbird 'cause politically correct messages are Sooooooo Dullllllll. Zzzzzzz. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 72 Mon Dec 07, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 19:39 EST Jim Allen ---> Still waiting for that schematic for Falcon SIMM memory module. Maybe a actual size PCB design too? ;^) While your at it... how about a 44.1khz clock for the DSP port.... and a under $25.00 genlocking circuit... and a ....a.....a....a.... Well. Just the memory board will do I suppose! :) ------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 73 Mon Dec 07, 1992 D.GLISH [DAVE GLISH] at 19:42 EST Sam, Your comparison of the list price of the Mega-STe and the falcon was interesting. For only $150 more you can get a Falcon. What is too bad is that you loose the seperate keyboard. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 74 Mon Dec 07, 1992 L.NEILANDS [Leo] at 19:51 EST Here in London, Ont (Nodnol) we have the paramount archetypal ATARI dealer....a guy who follows all new developments, has many sources for hardware and software, does on-site service, uses the machine for his own ads and accounting and above all LOVES the product! So, anyone like that will simply find a way out of necessity to sell the F030. (by the way, I'm tired of trying to 'assemble' a clone in my head and then go out and buy it, take it home, open it up, plug in several boards, boot up several install disks, type into DOS all night.....clones can't compete. ......Leo ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 75 Mon Dec 07, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 21:02 EST OK, it's been a few months since this was last asked, but when might I be able to get TOS 4.0 for the TT? Ben White ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 76 Mon Dec 07, 1992 L.NEILANDS [Leo] at 23:15 EST Regarding the keyboard: I own a PC clone, and Amiga and an ST Mega2 (yes, and my favourite is ..... the ST)... EXCEPT for the keyboard...and my wife...who is a data-entry clerk agrees! The precise problem which Atari MUST pay attention to regarding the keyboard is.....the spacing between the TOPS of the keys ....the Mega and 1040 keys are TOO BROAD at the top. An Atari key is almost 5/8"across plus 1/8"gap to next key. IBM key...............1/2"across .....1/4"gap ! Amiga key...............1/2"............1/4"gap ! Guys! Do some R&D! Hire 5 keyboard typists and run a time/error test on each keyboard. The keyboard and mouse are the USER's first contact with the computer. That's how >I< got here!....Leo ---P.S. You don't necessarily have to BUNDLE software with a machine...simply SUPPORT the third party developers and your dealers and if you don't have dealers...create them. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 77 Tue Dec 08, 1992 E.KRIMEN [Ed Krimen] at 00:28 EST >Ed. > > That is great news give us more, please!! I sincerely wish I could provide you with more! Hopefully in the near future. :^) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 78 Tue Dec 08, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:15 EST BOB-BRODIE - Have you tried contacting Computer Chronicles again? They have new shows on the air again and I remember after the BCS meeting you saying that Atari couldn't reach them. Last week, they mentioned both Atari and Commodore having new products at COMDEX, so they ARE up to date. Also, you mentioned that on the first day of COMDEX that CNN picked up a review unit Falcon030. Do you have any other info on that and did Jerry Pournelle receive HIS review unit at the show? Are there any professional audio specs for the Falcon's 16-bit audio (e.g. amounts of distortion, etc.) available? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 79 Tue Dec 08, 1992 EXPLORER.5 [Robert Goff] at 01:20 EST It's "_toe_ the line", Chuck. Soul (boy, do I hate handles), I have to disagree about the feel of the keyboard. Think about it. The keyboard is the very first impression of quality a new buyer gets about the product. And you never get a second chance to make a first impression. (Did I say that?! :-) Most people don't make decisions on an entirely rational basis -- proof of that is how many of us cling to our Ataris. When I first test-drove a 520, it was the keyboard and low-res display that held me off for another two years until a friend got me interested enough to look at the applications. I know people who will only buy genuine IBM because of the difference in keyboards. On the other hand, I wish Jake would stop flogging the question. You ask the question around here, and if you get an answer you do and if you don't you don't. But it doesn't do anyone any good to raise the noise level. |) | |)O|) Robert Goff ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 80 Tue Dec 08, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 20:45 EST Steve, I was told that Computer Chronicles was off the air. I'll ask our PR firm to re-check the status on that. The PBS program that we've been dealing with is PC-TV. filming. CNN is still reviewing the unit. Pournelle did not pick up his at COMDEX, he was actually in our booth THE DAY BEFORE THE SHOW, during setup. And frankly, I doubt if he would have wanted to drag the unit around the rest of the Chaos that was in place at the Sands Expo Center during setup. :) Better we should go down and visit him again in person to make sure he gets all set up properly. :) When you post about the findings of ST Format relative to the Falcon030 I suggest that you keep in mind that their lead time is about 90-120 days, like most of the glossy mags. That means that the Falcon that they shot pictures of then is likely not the Falcon that is in current existence. Dave, Sorry if I came off poorly. That wasn't my intention. TRUCE. Thanks for the compliment, though. It truly made my day. Dan, And what about the rest of us that don't use Aladdin???? regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 82 Tue Dec 08, 1992 SLP at 22:13 EST I don't think that the ST's keyboard is so bad. It is a bit "mushy" in feel, but they key layout is the best I've ever used. I know that some PC keyboards have a large backspace and return key, but most of them place the control key down low instead of where it belongs, next to the A. Believe it or not, I even prefer the slanted function keys to the rectangular ones. Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 83 Tue Dec 08, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 22:19 EST BOB-BRODIE >I was told that Computer Chronicles was off the air. I'll ask our PR firm to >re-check the status on that. I saw their episode on the Comdex today. The Amiga 4000 was shown but I didn't see the Falcon. *******Brian********* Written on Tuesday 08 December 1992 at 10:38 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 84 Tue Dec 08, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:55 EST After 6 years and wearing out 2 keyboard assemblies, I've gotten used to the 'mushy' keyboard. That is not to say that I wouldn't prefer one with better feedback. Then again, my 'two fisted' self-taught typing method is far from the norm by any stretch of the imagination. I too have always liked the slanted function keys. I never had much trouble pressing them. Aesthetically, they're kind of cool too. I do admit that there are lots of people who are very fussy about what they type on (perhaps due to formal typing methodology), and I recognise the need for a keyboard with better feedback. With any luck, the rumors of a two-piece Falcon030 are true, and some of these difficulties can be addressed. Considering the price difference for equal capacity 2.5" and 3.5" IDE drives, a two-piece Falcon030 using a 3.5" drive might cost less than the one-piece unit (or come with a larger capacity drive as standard). Who knows what the future may bring. ____________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 85 Wed Dec 09, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:52 EST Well I was talking to the keyboardist for Prince and the NPG today (his name escapes me, either Kirk or Morris) about Paisley Parks setup and his home personal studio. He currently uses his MPC-60 to sequence and is going to add a computer sequencer soon. Paisley uses all Macs to date, but he said he heard about this new computer from Atari that everyone is real excited about. He didnt read it in magizines. Word is spreading and people are getting excited. Understandbly, the majority here arent into music, but it IS a multimedia machine. And is already being more than excepted, it one a blue ribbon from EQ magazine. Get hyped already!! The Falcon is a winner! Curt... I still want one!! (and a 100 to sell) p.s. EQ had an advertisment card saying you can get more Falcon info. Is this true? If there is a glossy (I still have one for the STBook) who do I contact to get some for Guitar Center? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 86 Wed Dec 09, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:04 EST L.NEILANDS - Exactly! For most people I know personally, the gripe about the ST's keyboard isn't so much the tactile feedback (or lack thereof) as it is the keytop spacing. That's why none of the things like TT-Touch (or whatever it's called) have much appeal to some of us since it doesn't actually REPLACE the keyboard, which is what's needed. I can't believe that after 7 years of complaints that Atari didn't finally drop the standard ST keyboard. I've been considering finding someone who would be willing to design and manufacture new keyboards for the ST (or perhaps just replacement KEYS), but I kinda need to know how much interest there would be in it and how much people would be willing to pay for it. Also, the function keys would be redone but I'm not sure exactly what I'd do with them yet (they wouldn't be slanted, but I'm not sure how to do it without making it look kinda messy...unless the whole top half of the casing was redone as well ). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 87 Wed Dec 09, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 02:06 EST Speaking of television shows, (and someone was) there is a really interesting show on the Discovery Channel this season called "NEXTSTEP". It would make an excellent venue for a Falcon030 feature story. Maybe someone at Atari should try to contact them. It is on at 12:30pm Eastern on tuesdays. -----------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 88 Wed Dec 09, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 03:03 EST Scott, AMEN to the location of the control key. My personal theory is that it is a conspiracy on the part of Word Perfect against WordStar. Ever try to use the WS command sequences with the control key down at the bottom left of the keyboard? I'm always ending up with a cap lock when using the editor in Turbo C. I hate the slanted function keys. One of the reasons I got my MSTe was for the decent keyboard. Curt, I hope that the Falcon is being _accepted_ and not _excepted_ by the music community. Seriously, that is good news. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 89 Wed Dec 09, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:00 EST Okay, I'm willing to buy that a lot of people care about what the keyboard feels like, but I'm not convinced that any sizable number of people will refuse to purchase a Falcon because it has an ST keyboard. I mean, it's not _that_ horrible. I've written hundreds of pages of text on one, and I've handled it just fine. A matter of taste, I guess. So, any dealers out there get any Falcons? Or was that just another cruel rumor? Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 90 Wed Dec 09, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:27 EST Those who wanted a separate keyboard either waited, or traded in their 1040's and bought MEGA's. Those who want a separate keyboard can either wait, or trade in their Falcon 030's and buy Falcon 040's. What's the problem? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 91 Wed Dec 09, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 08:35 EST Let's redo the keys in the old Royal typewriter style - Round buttons with levers leading under the case! :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 92 Wed Dec 09, 1992 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 14:44 EDT Re: keyboards... How many touch typists do you think buy computers each year? And especially an Atari? I suspect that most buyers (like me) never took typing in school. >Dan, >And what about the rest of us that don't use Aladdin???? >regards, >Bob Brodie I dunno, Bob, what's your excuse? Don't you have an ST? mike.k (messages courtesy of first and second fingers of each hand) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 93 Wed Dec 09, 1992 D.MCNAMEE [Dan @ Atari] at 17:15 EST Bob, Use GEnie but not use Aladdin? Gee, I didn't think anyone did that any more . Dan Sam, The Next Step on Discovery is produced locally. It is actually comprised of short tech news stories from the evening news on one of the local TV stations. Dan ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 94 Wed Dec 09, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:51 EST Get the Falcon030 on Next Step. It's a cool show, and the audience is EXACTLY the one who would buy a Falcon!! Computer Chronicles is Alive and well too! __________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 95 Wed Dec 09, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:04 EST So much talk about the keyboard! I've had my St for 6 years, the keyboard has never broken or malfuncioned. I would guess that saying this keyboard is garbage is a little strong. If it was braking all the time it would be another story. Granted it does feel mushy. Like typing on cotton. I don't really care. I would like a better keyboard on higher end Falcons but will gladly accept the old one on starter machines. Bob > You really should try Alladdin. We might see more of you as you will do everything you need to do on line twice as fast ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 96 Wed Dec 09, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 19:06 EST Didn't the DEKA device allow you to plug a standard clone keyboard into any ST? Personally, I've never even considered the keyboard a problem. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 97 Wed Dec 09, 1992 CONNOR [Connor] at 19:57 EST I kinda like the keyboard, even the spacing. I've gotten used to the 1040 keyboard layout, I just wish there were two ALT keys. As for the spacing, sometimes it isn't far enough, like when my fingers are cold or tired. Good news about musicians talking about the Falcon. ... Connor (who doesn't use Aladdin, and always hated typing class) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 98 Wed Dec 09, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 21:15 EST Curt, what issue of EQ is the Falcon in? Is it a review an ad or what? How big? Thanks, -----------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 99 Wed Dec 09, 1992 LYRE at 21:28 EST Steve, If you are considering the creation of a new keyboard their are a few things to keep in mind from a *medical* point of view. The keyboard has to be slanted and it really should be longer. Recent studies show that the normal typing position utilized is acceptable as far as slanting. But that a typists hands are unnaturally bent (and therefore more prone to carpal tunnel / tendonitis) because the elbows are forced out from the body while bending the wrists outward. Take a look at Newsweek, Dec 7, 1992, page 63 & 65 I believe. Lyre ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 100 Wed Dec 09, 1992 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 21:50 EST T.MCCOMB > People who have seen/used/played and worked with the Falcon030 (myself included) ARE IMPRESSED. Wow! If I were you, I'd start buying lottery tickets - the odds would be in your favour (not many people have seen/used a Falcon) :) I'm starting to take Thunderbird's side in this. The Falcon needs advertising. No and/or/but's about it. I would LOVE to get a chance to try the Falcon. Will it happen within the next year? I doubt it. I'm in Canada, and the local Atari dealer is now a PC dealer.. From the looks of things, I doubt Atari will even get any Fall-con's to Canada within 6 months.. Sure, maybe EVERYONE who has tried one is dying to buy 3 Falcons.. I would certainly give it a look-see.. How will people who have NOT heard of the Falcon give it a try? Umm.. let's see.. Picture a typical non-computer owner (Atari's proclaimed target). Wakes up one day (would have to be several months from now due to delivery delays) and says: Today, I will find a new computer product I have never heard of before, and see if it will meet my needs better than this PC which could get a GREAT deal on, or this Apple, which, if I could afford it, would also meet my needs. After rolling dice, looking for 4-leaf clovers and casting lots a few times, he concludes that this new piece of equipment, which will totally astound him even though he has never heard of it, must be being produced by Atari. Great! I know where to go. Now, he looks in the phone book for an Atari dealership. Hmm.. Strange.. None in the phone book.. Surely in the surrounding area, having a total population of over 400 000, there MUST be ONE Atari dealer. Hmm. No?? Well, let's try Mega-tropolis w/ a population of over 2.5 million. Ahh. The phone index. Ahh. Computers. Let's see.. PC stores - pages 515-575. Apple - pages 576- 595. Commodore - pages 596-599. Others - 600. Ahh. Page 600. Let's see.. Atari - WOW - there IS an Atari dealer here!! Ok, let's call.. Hello - I'm interested in the Atari line of products and - Sorry - we stopped selling Atari 3 months ago. You might try xxx. Strange - why would anyone STOP selling this great new item, which will probably change my life?? Let's try xxx. Hello. I'm interested in Atari products. Yes - we have a closeout special on today. Buy one, get 3 free - we need the space to store more PC's.. We're moving 'em faster than we can stock 'em. I was wondering if Atari brought out any great new machine recently? Well, they did mention something about a bird.. Falcon I think it was called. Sounded good. Most people are still waiting for them to ship. He mutters to himself: Falcon. Great name. Better than 486 SLCDX2-LB or II VXIS-CD. Certainly sounds good. Wish I could find a place to buy one.. At least, I THINK it's called Falcon, and it probably is QUITE good. Mattias ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 101 Wed Dec 09, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 23:04 EST I own a STacy and a 1040 STe. The STacy's keyboard is EXCELLENT. I like it even better than the Mega STe keyboard. (I've never tried a TT.) But the 1040 STe's keyboard is also acceptable to me. Not good - but acceptable. Just get the danged Falcon's RELEASED and worry about the keyboard later. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 102 Wed Dec 09, 1992 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 23:51 EST Are you saying you have a 'good' Atari dealer in London? It would sure beat the 'non-existant' dealer in the KW area.. Any word on Fall-Con shipments? Mattias ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 103 Thu Dec 10, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:19 EST BOB-BRODIE - Well PC-TV doesn't get shown on PBS where I am (Computer Chronicles DOES, though) and I want to see the F030 on TV! And speaking of the F030 and video, someone mentioned that there IS/WILL BE a F030 promotional VHS videocassette (though maybe only for dealers). Is this so and, if yes, would you expand on this? One thing bad about the F030 write-up in NewMedia is that there's a two-page Amiga 4000 ad on the following page. Still, there could have been NO F030 write-up at all! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 104 Thu Dec 10, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 03:14 EST By the way, I've started a topic in category 4 called 'Alternate Keyboard Choices' (topic 46) for discussing ST/Falcon keyboard modifications/replacements, so I'd suggest moving the discussion about that over there. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 105 Thu Dec 10, 1992 WAYNED. [Wayne] at 19:34 EST Thunderbird, Don't take this as a slam by any stretch of the imagination, but the faster you type, the more important the keyboard becomes. I can type in the 60-80 WPM (words per minute) area and possibly faster.(last time I was timed was over 15 years ago) .....BUT, that's on a good keyboard. Back in High-School I could exceed 60wpm on a good typewriter, but if you stuck me on one of the Adler machines I couldn't hit 40wpm and my errors were many in number. I bet I can't hit 40wpm on any Daisy Wheel typewriter I've tried. Why? Because I get all out of synch when I type 20 letters and hear the stupid daisy wheel only banging out the 10th letter. :-) Sometimes on the crappy Daisy Wheel typewriter at work I can get almost half a line ahead as long as the radio is up loud enough so I can't hear the wheel plunking away at it's plodding pace. BTW, the feedback on that typewriter is even worse than the ST if that's possible. I always enjoy typing on friends PC keyboards because of the great feedback and feel of the keys. The only time I get really screwed up is when I go for one of those keys that they put in a "funny" place. It's only a "funny" place because I'm used to my ST's. If I'd learned and used PC's most of my computer life I'm sure I'd think that the ST's location of the Control key was "funny". Wayne P.S. Steve, Make a decent aftermarket keyboard for the ST's (at least Mega's, Mega STe's and TT's) and they WILL come as long as you can make them anywhere near the price of good keyboards on the PC's and they are an improvement over what we already have. Keep the key layout the same, but you can fiddle around with the spacing as has been suggested. You might also take a look at some of the newer keyboards out for the PC's that address the Carpal Tunnel Syndrome by changing the shape of keyboards to make the wrist positions required more natural. I've got a Mega and while the keyboard on it is a VAST improvement over the ST's it's still a piece of crap when compared to the feel and feedback of a decent PC keyboard. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 107 Thu Dec 10, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:10 EST Since it's still the same keyboard interface, the Deka module should work fine on the Falcon, so you can always add a PC keyboard...maybe put the whole thing in a tower case too...if you really want one strongly ;-) No need to wait for Atari to do it ;-) ------------