==================================================================== (C) 1992 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari RoundTables. May be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari RoundTables on GEnie are the *official* information services of the Atari Corporation. To sign up for GEnie service, call (with modem in HALF DUPLEX) 800-638-8369. Upon connection, type HHH Wait for the U#= prompt. Type XJM11877,GENIE and hit RETURN. The system will now prompt you for your information. ==================================================================== Category 14, Topic 20 Message 1 Sun Nov 22, 1992 DENNYA [Denny Atkin] at 17:17 EST >>It doesn't stand for Sam Tramiel Right, and TOS doesn't stand for Tramiel Operating System either. :grin: FifthCrusade, We should take this conversation over to the ST vs. other platforms topic, but I'd love to know _why_ you think the Falcon will have better games than the Amiga 1200. Seriously. Sound is the only area where I can see the Falcon winning in the game area. If you want to reply, let's take it over to Cat 18, Topic 22, which is the official place for such discussions. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 2 Sun Nov 22, 1992 M.REARDON [Mark Reardon] at 19:27 EST Any **real** news about NextStep being ported for the Falcon ? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 3 Sun Nov 22, 1992 SLP at 20:19 EST Denny, there are 2 basic reasons. First of all, everyone knows that the more creative people favor Atari over Amiga. Secondly, you Amy guys spend so much time trying to convince the world that the Amiga is the only way to go that your development time is cut into, unless you all spread propoganda while using the Amiga's famous multi tasking. Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 4 Sun Nov 22, 1992 B.CARRIER [Bruce] at 21:31 EST Falcon? What's a Falcon? I was looking for a slide-viewer today at K-Mart, Lechmere, Sound Playground, Caldor's, Electronic Boutique, Staples, Sears, and one I forgot - and NOT ONE of any of them even heard of a computer called Falcon! (Much less Atari)! >> C'mon folks, how much can you take? This is November 22nd, 1992 - Xmas is 4 weeks away - The Bungee jump is over. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 5 Sun Nov 22, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 22:21 EST T.J., The SS2 has a 40mhz SPARC chip. It runs at 25.0 SPEC marks (2.85 MIPS and 4.2 MFLOPS). It has a 64 KB cache. The disply for color is dependant on the size of the monitor... You either have 1152x900 or 1280x1024. I don't even own one. :) I just look on the sales flyer. JPL, ZyXEL, the best low-cost modems around, are ran on a 68000 with two 56001 DSP chips. The ROMs are distributed on Internet at release time, so you can burn them yourself and install them sooner, if you'd prefer to not pay the 30$ and have them mailed. Obviously, the DSP can work as a modem. :) What would be great is a way to use the ZyXEL rom's with the Falcon's DSP, so that the Falcon could talk to ZyXEL's at their 16.8Kbps rate, and their beta 19.2Kbps rates. That'd be cool. (ZyXEL's are full duplex) AT&T's v.fast protocol (28.8Kbps full duplex) isn't distributed, however, so that may be a while in coming... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 6 Sun Nov 22, 1992 R.ZALISCHUK [ ROBZAL ] at 23:40 EST Well, I've just finished reading the comdex coverage in the latest ZNET..... There's one paragraph where my basic reaction is -thud!- then I wake up staring at the ceiling. 4000 machines a month...worldwide? under a 1000 a month to North America? I try to be optimistic and positive about Atari otherwise I might go crazy......but the insanity may hard to ward off on this one. With the market the Falcon seems to be targeted for and an actual advertising push, my worst case senario was 20,000 a month with 5000 to North America. Lordy, lordy, how can there be an advertising push in N.A. with an initial 2000 machines and then under a 1000 a month? Robert Z. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 7 Mon Nov 23, 1992 J.THOMAS12 [JT] at 00:43 EST Something that all in this area could think about is, what happens if Atari sells 2 million Falcons, then, once they have some more bucks, they release the "Falcon040" and some of the users upgrade. It seems as if they are trying to get a "sure seller" out so that later they can bring out a Hot Rod. I would think that on their next model they would do ANYTHING to make it easy to hop up. If they giv it room in the case, and make it easy to expand, they ought to be able to sell them as fast as they can build 'em. JT PS I think it was implied that "ST" stood for SixTeen and "TT" stood for ThirtyTwo. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 8 Mon Nov 23, 1992 R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 01:02 EST And I was a proud owner of the Tweety Board while packing my 1st 1040ST. I shrudder to think how many different systems have passed through my doors over a few short years. I'm active duty USN and recently established an electronic calibration course at Pearl Harbor. We use quite a bit of Automated Test Equipment in the process, particularly equipment from Fluke and HP. I'd be interested in anything you come up with that involves the ST with ATE. We're using the GPIB (IEEE488-1975) interface. Thanks for the response. > Bob Beatty < > Neutronics < > Honolulu, HI < ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 9 Mon Nov 23, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:05 EST S.DANUSER - Actually, I'm pretty sure I heard someone from Atari say (here on GEnie) that the Falcon030 wasn't (to paraphrase) "crippled like Mac LC II" in reference to the CPU bus. I'm not pissed that the Falcon030 is the way it is, but that Atari has been lying to us (again!). Yes, the Falcon030 is damn impressive as is, which is something I haven't been disputing. I'm just worried about a business-as-usual Atari that won't get anything done. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 10 Mon Nov 23, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 02:33 EST Okay, I've got it. Let's all pretend that the Falcon 030 is actually the Falcon 000. That's right, Atari was originally going to release the machine with a 68000 chip in it. So they build in a true PDS slot. They build in a 16 bit path to RAM. Everything looks great. Then someone comes up with an idea: "Hey, let's throw a 68030 in there instead. It's a faster chip and will increase speed and performance. The users will love it!" ... Yeah, well, read through the last hundred messages to see what the users have to say, informed or not. Which only goes to show that people will never be happy with anything. Give them cake, and they'll complain there isn't enough frosting. On another note, it warms my heart to see that Fifth Crusade started another, uh, crusade against the holy Amigae. See you in Cat 18... Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 11 Mon Nov 23, 1992 Z-NET at 03:53 EST Regarding 1,000 Falci a month into the USA... that's about 10 per month per "dealer". Not a lot. But not a lot of dealers, now. If they built 10,000 a month for the USA, I wonder how many would moulder in a warehouse and make Atari's cashflow plummet. John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 12 Mon Nov 23, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 04:27 EST With an unsure market for the Falcon at this point in time, would it be in Atari's best interest to build 20,000 machines a month and in 2 months they have only sold 5,000 machines? It is much easier to increase production as the demand grows than to start production and then stop it for awhile and then start it back up again. Starting up a production run is a lot more work than maintaining a steady production flow. Atari seems to be in first gear at the moment, hopefully the machine will take off and then they can change into second, third, etc. as needed. It's like traveling on the city streets with a lot of red lights versus going the highway where you don't have a lot of start and stop. Which is easier? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 13 Mon Nov 23, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 04:30 EST Soul Manager, >Let's pretend that the Falcon 030 is actually the Falcon 000. That's >right, Atari was originally going to release the machine with a >68000 chip in it. Aww. I was going to say this. >Then someone comes up with an idea [to put in a 68030 instead]. Why would Atari do this? It's a better chip. It's faster. It's easier to market. But I think the most important reason is Multi-TOS. Multi-TOS won't work real well without the memory protection offered by the 68030. In a multitasking system without memory protection, as you add processes to the mix, you're essentially building a house of cards. When one process goes haywire, chances are good it'll take every other process with it. >...Fifth Crusade started another, uh [sic], crusade against the >holy Amigae. Whoops. I'll have to stop doing that. Ben White ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 14 Mon Nov 23, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:13 EST >In any case why don't we all wait until we can play with a Falcon before we >start to criticize it! > Some people just can't wait! ----------------------------------------------------- >it seams OBVIOUS to me that thare is a SIMPLE way around the 16 bit wide buss >in the PDS for use with 040's and 486s.. If you will think back to the >Previous "Argument" over the fact of the Memory board, and the fact that there >is not an Iota of memory on the motherboard of the falcon (Except for the Non- >Volital Ram wich if probably les than a K anyway). If you want you Upgrade >board to have FULL access to the 32 bit wide RAM on the Memory board, Why not >UN-PLUG the memory board from the Mother Board and Plug a "Tap" in between the >Mother board and the memory? > >This wuld let you get at the Memory FAST at a FULL 32 bits wide! You wuld >STILL nead to watch the PDS addres lines to make shure that you don't conflict >with the Other DMA stuff... But I am Shure that this Little trick Could be >done! > >Josh @ Cali-Co. > "There is no limit to people's ingenuity!" ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 15 Mon Nov 23, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 18:43 EST It's always been clear that ST stood for Sixteen-Thirtytwo, and TT stood for Thirtytwo-Thirtytwo. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 16 Mon Nov 23, 1992 LYRE at 19:18 EST Jonathan, You know, I just recently saw something about the ZyXel - and was darned impressed. I wouldn't mind having their modem connected to my system even if their *is* a bit of overlap. The functionality of their higher end modem seemed rather awesome to me. Too bad the programs (to the best of my knowledge) to best utilize the modem are IBM specific. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 17 Mon Nov 23, 1992 AFINKEL [andy] at 19:21 EST I always prefered the TOS = Tramiel Operating System, ST = Sam Tramiel, and TT = Tony Tokai theory myself. andy ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 18 Mon Nov 23, 1992 M.EVERHART2 [MIDIMIKE] at 22:25 EST I wonder if someone would tell me if the Falcon030 will run the SM124 in overscan mode? (Giving me a larger screen). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 19 Mon Nov 23, 1992 TQUINN [Terry~Sysop] at 23:07 EST The first 200 messages in this topic (minus the off topic posts) have been archived and are available in Library 13 as File # 26643 (FALCON10.ARC). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 20 Mon Nov 23, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:19 EST MIDIMIKE: From what I can tell, the "ST Compatability" modes are generated in a totally different way than the new graphics modes. I think that the overscan is exclusive to the new modes, and won't apply to the new ones. Since info is still scarce, I could be mistaken. Even if it did do overscan, you'd probably have to adjust the SM124 to be able to see the additional pixels, because with overscan, they are tacked onto the edges of the normal screen borders, and often hidden behind the monitor bezel. this is especially true if your SM124 has been adjusted to fill the whole screen on an ST. Don't despair though... a VGA monitor with a dot pitch similar to the SM124 doesn't cost too much these days, so you'll get SM124 resolution plus some, and color to boot! Plus, you can still use your SM124 while you're monitor hunting. _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 21 Tue Nov 24, 1992 T.GIRSCH [T.J.] at 00:58 EST J.ROY18 - I guess the SPARC manual people figgered if you bought it, you know what it does. Thanks for the specs. Regarding the bungee jump, I prefer to think of Atari as like Jason -- you think he's dead but he keeps coming back. - T.J. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 22 Tue Nov 24, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:17 EST R.ZALISCHUK - That's what I was wondering as well. I first heard that Atari was planning on making 300,000 Falcon030's through the end of '93 and thought even THAT might be kinda low. Now we're talking 48,000 for '93! I mean, there's nothing TO push there! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 23 Tue Nov 24, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:28 EST ThunderBIRD, I'm back... and YOUR RIGHT!!! I was at Comdex and for (2)days I touched.. I felt... I saw and HEARD the Falcon... GREAT sound, and compared to other systems (some with CHEAP 24bit cards) only AVERAGE video, color and resolutions were easily bettered on any number of surrounding systems (Although the Falcon outdid everything there with the in-a-window movie thing)! Most new PC's are based on the 486 running at 11mips (Twice that of the Falcon030) and some FAST video 16/24 bit cards. These NEW "Low End" systems are all 32bit systems ... say it slowly.. Thirty-Two bit MEMORY operations with Local Bus video... Quotes from Atari Falcon030 Specifications: System Architecture: Thats "SYSTEM ARCHITECTURE" not 68030 architecture!!! Quote: "BUS: 32-bit data, 32-bit address." Now wait-a-minute John Townsend: "It's a 16bit data bus, once and for all" Don't get me wrong, its a nice system with sound that can't be matched! but here are the real kickers in my opinion: 1. Mushy 1040 keyboard! WHY oh WHY on a NEW system?? that one REALLY hurts.. sheesh my friends couldn't stop gigling!! 2. The LOOK of Yesterdays HOME systems.. why oh why?? why put a quad-cam 93' Pontiac engine in a 69' Bonneville??? 3. $1400 for a (one piece 4meg, without monitor) home system?? with only 16bit expansion capabilities??? 4. Muti-TOS GOOD but still not quite finished (looks to be a few months away to me). 5. After watching the "mini-plug" in action i.e. slip..pop.. fall out..this machine deserves the RCA option (I agree with the BIRD) 6. After watching the "AT emulation" at work.. hmmmmm Black and white Windows 3.1 only!! Not gonna do it, needs more work! NOTE: In the beginning we we ALL very excited about the Falcon.. Wow for once a true 32bit Atari with Awsome "True Color" video and DSP capabilities!! I was very enthused and PROUD that Atari took the risk and went ALL-THE-WAY!!! Whats needed: 1. At least 640X480X16bits with a real VGA/SVGA monitor. I'm sorry 320X480 with Multi-Sync can't cut it in todays market! 2. At least replace the 1040 keyboard with the "Mega" units!! even if they Have To use the 1040 case! 3. A Real 32bit data/"Expansion Bus" 4. If Atari GOES with this unit.. lower the price and issue ONLY the 4meg unit with/HD for under $1000.. and release the REAL 040 system!.. by Summer 93' lesser versions of the 040 will be Apples "MID LEVEL" systems anyway. This is NOT meant to be negative! The Falcon can do some GREAT things! but the little guy must execute all functions of the computer game BETTER than the big guy... Just to succeed!! Drake: No the DSP does NOT compress and decompress on-the-fly .. you need the codec optional chip set for that! Soul Manager: Please... Most of these features including the Kodak CD thing will be available on other systems.. and at the SAME price break, and usually with MUCH larger total software bases.. with Expansion Slots and in higher video resolutions and in some cases MORE colors!! I want my REAL 32bit ATARI system!! the one Advocated and Mis-quoted by folks I thought I could trust.. (at this stage of the game!) I am sorry.. stop trying to tell me less is OK.. I don't need almost as fast.. I thought the falcon030 was going to be a "Barn Burner" You know "Power without the Price" ... The 486SX High-Rez cheapies will make mince-meat outa this system before summer.. You can quote me on this one!! It's like introducing a 16MHZ 386SX system in 1993!! gimmy-a-BREAK! and.. by-the-way... It really sounds like most folks in this area HAVE NOT seen the Dazzling NEW graphics available on some of the NEW 486SX systems! .... Gee.. Sigh... I hate DOS And PLEASE... don't tell me speed does'nt count.. just watch the NEW Atari Word Processer (With Gorgious Fonts I might add) as it scrolls slowly down your page!! The ST WAS the Fastest thing out there when we bought it! and we were DARN proud of it.. for just that reason.. Man, it would BLOW the doors of any 8088!! or 8086!!! If you can get TWICE the speed and overall performance out something 1/2 the cost, isn't this what it's all about!! I LOVE MY MEGA4 Keyboard.. sheesh gimi at least as good!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 24 Tue Nov 24, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:46 EST If you guys keep it up, the same thing will happen to the Falcon that happened to the ST Book. Mark my words. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 25 Tue Nov 24, 1992 J.EIDSVOOG1 [CodeHead] at 12:48 EST Yes it's true that "true color" requires no bit shifting. But with 16-bits per pixel it means that there is anywhere from 4 to 16 times as much memory to be moved for any particular operation. It may or may not be faster than the intervleaved modes. It also means that a 640x480 screen will take over 600K of memory (double that if you want a screen saver). John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 26 Tue Nov 24, 1992 BAREFOOT [Brad Cox] at 16:50 EST J.RICHTER- What is the "Codec Optional chip set" you mentioned? Brad @ BAREFOOT ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 27 Tue Nov 24, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:17 EST J.RICHTER: * * * ***** * * * * * ** ** * ** * * ***** * * * *** * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * ***** * * * _________________ \hunderbird P.S. Can you relate your MultiTOS experiences with us??? What ran, and how well? Look, feel, etc.? Compared to Windoze? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 28 Tue Nov 24, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:48 EST John, I can't speak with knowlege of how Warp 9 generates font output so fast, but my own experience in writing optimized font output routines leads me to believe that Falcon030 True Color 640x400 should really be faster than either ST color mode. Unless the true color mode DMA eats into the 68030 CPU cycles, it should be faster. Also, I do not know if true color mode uses interleaved pixels or not. Interleaved pixels would prevent the speed increase I am contemplating. Each consecutive word of RAM has to contain all bits for a true color mode pixel for this scheme to work. Since ST mono mode isn't really interleaved, it may be the fastest. But I heard that the 70Hz mono monitor cut into CPU cycles a bit, so who knows? Another benefit for this scheme will be that when blitting images around, it will be trivial to make any color 'transparent' or 'opaque' or 'additive' or any boolean or arithmetic operation one can imagine. Think of a paint program where you can say "Overlay image A on image B and make every place where red and bule overlap generate purple.", and all other colors mix like paint or light! This stuff is child's play for a non interleaved bit scheme. On the ST, this sort of a thing is a nightmare! I hope they do it this way! BTW: With almost 700K required to do the highest true color mode, is a 1 meg system still viable? _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 29 Tue Nov 24, 1992 K.HULET at 20:35 EST Besides being an ideal first Atari computer I think the Falcon makes alot of sense as an upgrade to ST owners. Sure I've saved for a TT but that is really a different ball game for most ST users. The Falcon has much to offer and I can use my existing monitors (at least for awhile). Don't you think we should start seeing lists of Falcon compatible software? Bill Rehbock said at WAACE that Pacific Software had a Falcon just to test software compatibility. That's been over a month, maybe enough time to get a partial list? If I could get a Falcon I'd be happy to test and report on software. ............ Ken ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 30 Tue Nov 24, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 21:30 EST ThunderBIRD, From what I saw MultiTOS needs some work on Minimizing of Windows for "Illegal" programs! but all-in-all I think with a little more work it will BLOW THE SOCKS of Windows 3.1!! The pre-emtive Multitasking and Prioritization seems to work nicely together... Could this be the REAL savior of ATARI..?? could be, look at MicroSoft! geee... maybe they can even port this thing to 486 technology also!! I mean OS2 2.0 is a simi-flop.. Unix is TOO big.. and Windows 3.1 must go through MesyDOS to function... hmmmmm The Falcon030 seams to run MultiTOS about as fast as a 386-33 runs Windows 3.1 .. which is pretty fast now that I think about it!! (just CAN'T stand the MUSHY keyboard). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 31 Tue Nov 24, 1992 R.MARTIN22 [NETWORK 23] at 22:09 EST SAM: It shows your billing address. MIKE: >I wish Atari luck, but some marketing skill would be more appropriate. Hear! Hear! Whatever happened to that public relations firm Atari hired? Not that I ever expected anything to come out of it. I could just see Sam, Jack, et al throwing out every idea brought to them. Live And Direct [7:38 PM-21/Nov/92], Rod Martin, Network 23/ST Connection ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 32 Tue Nov 24, 1992 NEVIN-S at 22:50 EST John Nagy, not to nitpick, but every time I see you post the word "Falci" I just sort of burp. Is this really the plural of Falcon, or are you making it up as some sort of affectation? If I have a futon in one bedroom and another in a second bedroom, I have two futons, right? If I own one Atari Falcon at home and one at work, I own two Falcons, right? Or is Falci really the plural of Falcon? I don't have a dictionary handy... --Nevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 33 Tue Nov 24, 1992 J.PIERCE5 [Rob] at 23:10 EST J.Richter: I agree wholeheartedly. The mushboard HAS to go. The one-piece case can stay since it's a sissy 16 MHz machine, and as far as I'm concerned, the 1/8" jacks can stay too. I'll get one when I can get a 1 meg unit without a hard drive for $700 (so I can get an third party RAM board), but I WILL go to a two-piece system when it becomes available. In the meantime, a TT Touch keyboard upgrade will have to suffice. This may be a low-end machine, but it doesn't need to SHOUT it like it's doing. Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 34 Tue Nov 24, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:17 EST + - - - - - - - - - - - C A U T I O N - - - - - - - - - - -+ ! ! ! The following message contains satire. Sensitive viewers ! ! are asked to leave the room. Thank you for your support. ! ! ! + - - - - - - - - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - - - - - - -+ Nevin: I hope "Falci" isn't the official plural of Falcons... Someone would inevitably pronounce it "Falsie"! ___________________ \hunderbird 'cause we wouldn't want the Falcon030 to get a reputation for being fake, now would we? ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 35 Tue Nov 24, 1992 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 23:46 EDT >Falcon030 seams to run MultiTOS about as fast as a 386-33 runs Windows >3.1 .. Hmmmm, then I wonder how MultiTOS will run on a TT, or 030'ed ST. Sounds like fun. Maybe you're right, maybe MultiTOS is the real big deal here. mike.k ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 36 Wed Nov 25, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:35 EST Z-NET - It's just that with all the excitement that the Falcon030's stirred up (supposedly), Atari doesn't seem to think it will sell well based on those production numbers. I hope Atari has the ability to increase the production by several times if the Falcon030 is a hit. I'm just shocked at the thought of ONLY about 50,000 machines through the end of '93. That's 1/20th of how many Amiga's were sold last year. If that's the SET production schedule, I don't see the incentive for Atari to get new dealers or even to sell the F030 through mass market stores (Circuit City, WaldenSoftware, etc.). Maybe Atari should consider buying another store chain again, just one that isn't dead like Federated. Maybe Software Etc., Babbages, Electronics Boutique, or the like. They could keep them as mainly software stores for IBM's and Mac's, but could sell Atari hardware and software through them as well. R.WATSON15 - I don't think it's flat out stupid to start out production in low numbers, but it sounds like it would be the 4,000 per month for quite a while. Plus, as I mentioned above, what's Atari's capacity to increase production? TOWNS/B.REHBOCK - Okay, I'm not trying to be a thorn in your side, but I just want to get this COMPLETELY straight: Are RAM configurations other than 1MB, 4MB, and 16MB IMPOSSIBLE on the Falcon030 or IS IT POSSIBLE to get something like 8MB if someone finds some 2Mb x 1 or 2Mb x 4 DRAM's? In other words, does the Falcon030 just need 32-bit RAM or is the 1/4/16 limitation HARD-WIRED into the system? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 37 Wed Nov 25, 1992 B.AEIN [B Man] at 01:32 EST Not to get off subject.... :) The latest EGM magazine claims that the new Jaguar is very impresive, but Atari decided to remove half off its RAM so it will sell with only 1 Meg instead of 2 Meg's, and basicaly says that this was decided by the top brass and was typical of Atari. I sure hope this is not true, cause in the up comming 32 bit home gaming war, Atari and any other console maker is going to need every spec they can get to compete with the big N. Not only is the Falcon impaired, but theres a chance the Jag will be impaired and that will not bode well. Now back to the usual 200 messages of um well words, um posts. Yea thats it, posts. It would be real nice if Atari could dispell this Jag rumor hint hint! 33' 040 56002 60meg Fast Ram 64bit PDS ( for the IBM-Apple RISC chip or any RISC chip for that matter) Heaven forbid the Falcon going big time and software publishers charging MAC prices in the Atari realm shuttttter!!! ;') we should be so lucky aye? Bman ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 38 Wed Nov 25, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 02:10 EST Falconiers! Sorry... Didn't mean to be all dome-an-glume... On the Very positive side I thought the TT030 was GREAT!! Love the Keyboard!.. Love the Nice fit-n- finish!! Love the expandability! hmmmm drop the price and add a DSP for some Falcon Apps.. hmmm sounds like a nice combo to me!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 39 Wed Nov 25, 1992 R.ZALISCHUK [ ROBZAL ] at 02:27 EST Right Steve..... That's the angle I'm looking at this from. Comments that this is a machine the Tramiels finally believe in... I expected a higher prod. run- Comments from Atari on a *proper marketing push* if you're planning to create demand it would help to have some product available- Atari talks off a regional based rebuilding in North America... a proper marketing push in the N.Y. or L.A. or Toronto areas alone could suck up a 1000 machines a month- The existing dealers can suck up a 1000 machines alone!!- how *are* you going to attract new dealers or mass merchandisers?- I had figured Atari would use the Aug - Dec 92 timeframe to build up a supply to launch in North America...more like 30,000 not 2,000. I try to think positively.... not "oh we're making 20,000 a month how will we sell them all" instead "we're making 20,000 a month WE ARE GOING TO SELL THEM AND THIS IS HOW, then do it! As said in a much earlier message I expect Atari to sell every Falcon they make, and with a proper marketing push (even starting regionally) I would expect 20,000 a month to sell through dealers and chains. Most of do agree it is a good machine....yes? That's my angle...... Robert Z. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 40 Wed Nov 25, 1992 R.ZALISCHUK [ ROBZAL ] at 02:33 EST hmmm.....as someone else said and as I agree..... Atari will sell every Falcon they make. On another topic might the IAAD be producing an updated booklet and will Atari commit to including one with each Falcon sold? and include demo disks of some of the top programs... a good idea from John Barnes in the October Current Notes. Robert Z. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 41 Wed Nov 25, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:20 EST Steve Johnson - Towns has said numerous times that the Falcon will only see 1, 4, or 14 meg configurations. But since this is due to the way the operating system is written, it seems to me that one could write an OS patch for whatever configuration of RAM board they could stick into it (within reasonable limits, of course). I don't see why 2 or 8 megs couldn't be accomplished using this method. Of course there may be some hidden hardware reason that we don't know about yet. One good thing about the limited production run: if the 4/65 versions are all that's made for a while, maybe Atari will consider making this the low end configuration (well, hopefully they would make a 4 meg without HD). I still say scrap the 1 meg. The 486 board has me curious. But I suppose that, unless Compo's come up with some wild design, the 32 bit processor will be bottlenecked to 16 bits through the PDS. Comments from anyone who talked to Compo? Bob? Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 42 Wed Nov 25, 1992 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 08:17 EST NEVIN, being a former Latin scholar ;-) I can tell you that "Falci" would be the plural of "Falcus"... therefore it is my opinion that the use of the word "Falci" is simply a whimsical pluralization for effect. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 43 Wed Nov 25, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 09:44 EST Re mushy keyboards, I've never tried a TT, but I sure love my STacy's keyboard. Too bad the Falcon isn't like that. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 44 Wed Nov 25, 1992 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 16:21 EST >S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 00:35 EST > >I'm just shocked at the thought of ONLY about 50,000 machines >through the end of '93. In ST User, an english magazine, Atari UK boss Bob Gladow claimed to sell 100,000 units in england in 1993 and I think Germany will do the same at least and don't forget France. (I'm now only talking about europe because that's were I live and what I know best) The rumor of 50,000 has to be wrong compared to what Bob said. Even a small subsidairy like Benelux can do 25,000 units at least. Note!, this is not an official statement of Atari Benelux, nor Atari Corp. It's just my personal feedback in an heavy discussion on something that has to be a bad rumor. Soul Manager: > I don't see why 2 or 8 megs couldn't be accomplished using this > method. Of course there may be some hidden >hardware reason that we > don't know about yet. 1 Mb is 32 256 Kbit RAMs 4 Mb is 32 1 Mbit RAMs 14Mb is 32 4 Mbit RAMs (actually this is 16Mb, 2Mb mapped out for ST I/O space and ROMs) 32 chips width is necessary for video acces, so you can't have 16 chips like in the ST(E). If 512 Kbit and 2Mbit RAMs exist (no!) than 2 and 8 Mb are also possible. Yes, it's the hardware. Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 45 Wed Nov 25, 1992 J.ROY18 [Jonathan] at 19:25 EST Is the TOS in the Falcon numbered 4.0? Some pirate BBS's have a "4.0" up, and said it was the Falcon's TOS... Just wondering if that really is it's official designation or not... -- Another question... Does the Falcon developer set for $80 include an assembler for the DSP? I thought I remembered hearing it did, but I'm not sure... We are covering assembly, Pascal, and C in my CS courses at school, so I thought it may be a good time to jump on the programming bandwagon! :) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 46 Wed Nov 25, 1992 POTECHIN [Nathan @ DMC] at 19:39 EST Jonathan ... You need to hang around in a better class of place. "Some pirate BBS's"? Sigh. Last I heard the plan was to release MultiTOS with the release of the Atari Falcon 030. I doubt the "pirate BBS's" were consulted in this decision. Nathan @ DMC ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 47 Wed Nov 25, 1992 SLP at 21:01 EST That volume does seem a little low, Steve. I was talking to a Gateway 2000 sales person a couple of weeks ago and after waiting on hold for a long time, I told him that business must be good. He said they ship 4,000 systems a day. (I have my doubts but that's what he claimed.) If those figures from Atari are right, there is no way they will be in mass market outlets. They probably have over 1000 WalMart stores in the country. Those numbers wouldn't even keep them in stock, let alone all the other dealers. Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 48 Wed Nov 25, 1992 JOHN.KING.T [JOHN KING T] at 21:53 EST Thunderbird, There were many "Falsies" in Las Vegas, but they were in the on Stage at the Follies. :~} JKT ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 49 Wed Nov 25, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 22:11 EST The dictionary I use, use Falcons to describe more than one. "Falcons take their....". I always thought that (Falci) was a wierd word. Although I can understand the need to ramp up slowly at first, I do wonder what will happen if the Falcon is a BIG hit and the demand is more than can be produced and people are told that it will be 3 (just a number I picked) months before they will be able to get one. Actually, I know what will happen. There will be a lot of lost sales and another company gets the sale. J.RICHTER, But the TT030 IS NOT CLASS B CERTIFIED and thus ILLEGAL TO OWN IN YOUR HOME as a HOME SYSTEM. I don't want to pay that kind of price for a CLASS A computer and then have it taken away. I definately would rather have a 4/0 or 14/0 version of the Falcon. I don't need another HD at this time. Why not have the HD a seperate stock item and let the dealers install them if the user wants it? They do it with the MSTE and TT. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 50 Wed Nov 25, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 22:24 EST Hi guys, I remain a tad confused over the 16-bit/32-bit databus argument. It does seem a bit odd to design such a new system and then not take full advantage of the larger databus (other than cost that is). Perhaps John T or Bill can fill us in on the logic behind the decision if it is indeed a 16 rather than 32 bit bus. As for problems with using a 486 emulator on a 16-bit bus... correct me if I'm wrong (it does happen now and then ), but aren't the VAST majority of DOSBoxes ESI? That's a 16-bit, 8 Mhz data bus and is a carry- over from the old AT system. It's only just now that the 32-bit ESDI bus is becoming affordable enough to be popular, and that still adds up to $1,000 to any system with it over an otherwise identical ESI unit. John, Bill, and the rest from Atari have really done a great job of helping us out here on GEnie. But, as they've had to say many times, the are NOT hardware people.. they're software experts! PLEASE... Can Atari arrange for one of their HardWare types to drop by now and then to fill us in? There's GOT to be someone there at Sunnyvale that can spare a least a little time for GEnie. Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 51 Wed Nov 25, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:22 EST Gregg, the ISA bus for peripheral boards in PCs is 16bits wide, but it is only for peripherals. The MEMORY in 486 systems is sitting on a direct 32bit bus bolted to the CPU chip. The 030 has the built in ability to talk to 8, 16, or 32bit buses...it's called dynamic bus sizing...without any affect on software, so you can make an 8bit Falcon, or a 16bit Falcon, or a 32bit Falcon, all with the same 030 chip. The 040 doesn't have those circuits, neither does the 486, etc, so machines built around them must either include HW to "fake" a 32bit bus _or_ software that only reads 16bit items from the 16bit devices ;-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 52 Wed Nov 25, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:52 EST Gregg: The answer to your question is simple. The ISA and EISA busses in a PC only determine the way in which the motherboard talks to it's peripherals, like disks, video, ports, etc. If you have a machine with '32 bit architecture', it means that the CPU can get data from RAM 4 bytes at a time in parallel. The path from the CPU to RAM is 32 bits wide. The size of the ISA and EISA slots determine how many bytes the CPU can get to/from the cards populated. The speed of the system input and output to the peripherals _is_ important, and that's why you see 32 but cards coming out now, but the speed at which the CPU talks to the RAM is where the real speed of a system is judged. Even cheapo clones have 32 bit CPU-RAM busses these days. Now, with 'local bus video', many motherboards have a special 32 bit slot which gives the CPU direct 32 bit access to the video RAM, much like the way the Falcon030 CPU talks to the video RAM (only at twice the clock speed and twice the number of bits). This method is a good way to 'get around' the 16 bit ISA limit. So, doing a '486 board for the 16 bit PDS poses a problem... do you: a) Force the '486 to talk ever-so-slowly to the Falcon030 RAM in itty-bitty pieces? b) Force the purchaser to populate additional 32 bit RAM on the '486 emulator board for full speed performance? Maybe the next generation 680x0 will have no DSACKx lines, making it really tough to strangle it's bus. ______________________ \hunderbird "Just say 'NO' to DSACKx!!" Anyone care for a free button? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 53 Wed Nov 25, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:58 EST According to Jim, the 68040 has no DSACKx lines!!!!!! Hooray! I want a Falcon040 NOW! ___________________ \hunderbird Thank Heaven for small miracles! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 54 Thu Nov 26, 1992 Z-NET at 00:13 EST Falci is my word. Use it or lose it, I'm not sensitive. "Type A Computer illegal to one and use in your home.... only to have it taken away..." NONSENSE. The FCC has no goon squad. I can see it... there's a knock on the door late at night... a bleary eyed nerd opens it, to be thrown aside by 5 black-garbed G-Men. They b-line it to the room illuminated by the blue light, and the men gleefully turn the computer over, disks akimbo and monitor de damned... "Just as we thought, TYPE A!" "Book him, Dano." Nope. The only one at risk of siesure or fines for domestic sales of non-type accepted equipment is the manuacturer and/or sales system. The end user may use his end to his delight. Without fear of the dreaded "FCC POLICE." John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 55 Thu Nov 26, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 00:17 EST Don't forget that the US is only 8% of Atari's current market (if that much). If Atari plans to sell 100,000 systems next year then logically only 8% will go to the US. Thats 8000 units... I'd be happy if they just get 1 to this part of the country.:-) Opps, let me be more specific, 1 that works the first time... I know I've been a little negative toward Atari online so I want to make it clear I'm not disappointed in the Falcon itself. In fact, I'm waiting to buy one to replace me STe. I think it's a decent unit to be the lower level machine. It's also likely the price will drop well below list after the units been a out a couple months and a big brother is introduced. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 56 Thu Nov 26, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 01:19 EST Greg, John T. mentioned earlier Falcon CPU/RAM data paths ARE 32 bits wide. I'm not sure I understand what all the fuss is about here? The 1-4-16 meg memory sizes indicate CPU/memory is 32 bits wide. From the photos, there are about 80 pins on the RAM board leaving plenty of room for 32 bit data, 24 bit address, power, control and refresh lines. The PDS expansion slot is claimed to be 16 bits wide, just like the PC's. Taking the slot to 32 bits adds cost and circuit board real estate for the buffer circuitry and additional pins on the expansion slot. My estimates are taking the slot to 32 bits could easily add two square inches of board space (16 connector pins, 2 surface mount octal address buffers). The space simply does not exist in the Falcon030. The cost savings should not be ignored. A $5 per unit reduction over 100,000's of units pays for a lot of R&D on future products. In these volumes, every penny counts big. In my opinion, Atari didn't "cripple" the slot, they ran out of room on the board and decided to save cost for the 98% of the target Falcon customers who could care less about a PDS slot. The Falcon is obviously not intended for people who are willing to remove the cover, shielding, chips or whatever required to do an upgrade. People here on GEnie are in the upper 2% of the technology knowledge base and probably even know how to set the clock on their VCR much less field strip and reseat ST PLCC chips in the dark :-) Falcon030 is intended for the "general public." Ron @ Atari Explorer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 57 Thu Nov 26, 1992 RJROBINSON [ Ron ] at 02:02 EST John, The FCC can and has taken action against end users. They do not "seek out" problems. However, if a complaint is filed and your equipment found to be interfering with the reception of radio or TV, the FCC can fine you and confiscate the equipment. If you are interested, I can send you a copy of a case involving a 13 year old using a Tandy computer. "Video games" were interfering with the reception in a neighbors apartment. Neighbor files complaint. FCC investigates and measures excessive emissions. FCC sends dad a letter instructing him to disconnect the equipment or face a $10,000 fine and confiscation of the equipment. Dad promptly unplugged the computer. Dad's lawyer makes sure Tandy corrected the problem so son can use computer ;-) The bottom line is retailers selling or people encouraging someone to use Type A equipment in residental areas is ultimately putting Atari at risk of legal action. The emissions regulations are in place for good reasons, just as there are good reasons for for speed limits or laws against software piracy. -- Ron ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 58 Thu Nov 26, 1992 D.LIVINGST11 [ErnestBovine] at 02:52 EST > "Falci" > the plural of Falcon, ????????? The point is moot until multiple Falcim exist in the real world. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 59 Thu Nov 26, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 04:06 EST The FCC definitely DOES have a "goon" squad, but it comes into action based on citizen complaints. I stopped on the side of RT93 once, to ask an FCC van "What's this about?". Well, it was about them trying to catch a driver with a radar jammer that the NH state police had called in a complaint about....remember, $10,000 fine for illegal emissions, they don't care if you didn't "know" about the law. Just check with your neighnors, tell them you've got a ham radio and want to know if they are experiencing any problems...it can't hurt to be cautious. Ron, the added expense of going 32bits on the PDS is more like $.40. There is NO excuse for it, they deliberately didn't put a full PDS in because they have "other" plans in the corporate strategy, and the only addon they could "imagine" someone wanting is a PC emulator...not withstanding the lower and lower costs of entire PC systems...so that's what was built. Franky, if they had wanted something like a video frame grabber, or JPEG compression addons, they'd have put the 32bit in just to insure the performance of those things (which "fit" into thier plans) would be up to snuff. John has passed along the FACT that the data path between the 68030 chip and the system memory is 16bits not 32bits wide...just like a Mac ClassicII. Don't pass on incorrect data please, we finally got this sorted out just a couple weeks ago. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 60 Thu Nov 26, 1992 ST.REPORT [Ralph] at 07:04 EST I must also add to this series of comments relative to the FCC. They do _not_ have a "goon" squad. They _do_ have a group of field engineers (all graduate electronics engineers) in every office. These field engineers do the on site inspections for all modes of communications from telephone to satellites to cellular devices. They also do RFI/EMI inspections resulting from citizen complaints. If a complaint is found to be valid as certified by emissions measurements being above the limits set in the Rules and Regulations parts 15-97, a notification of complaint is sent with a request to correct the problems and ssend back a form filled out by a technician who performed the corrections. If, in the event the user installs the high pass/low pass filters and the condition is corrected then the user may reply himself. If a notice of compliance is not received by the FCC within the specified period of time, a second notice of violation is sent along with a stern warning of what can happen if compliance is not forth coming. If a seizure of the offending equipment is to occur, the field engineers do not perform the actual seizures. Instead, the U.S. Marshall's Service is called upon to "arrest" and seize the offending equipment. The Bottom Line; Owning and operating Class 'A' equipment in your home is not subject to seizure unless there is a complaint of interference on a neighbor's electronic device(s). Any... device would constitute grounds for a Notice of Violation. It is a risk a user must take... A dealer on the other hand, runs the risk of fines and forfeiture for selling the equipment to an individual(s) where it is known the device(s) will be used in a residential area(s). The manufactureer is also liable to heavy fines and forfeitures for allowing said sale to occur on a reoccuring basis. A manufacturer usually notifies its resellers of the rules at the time of delivery to said resellers. So, you see even though the FCC does not have "goon squads" they do indeed protect the rights of citizens to enjoy their electronic goodies in their homes without interference. In addition, there's far more serious forfietures and fines if the Class 'A' devices happen to interfere with Public Safety, Aviation or Common Carrier operations in any manner at all. That could very possibly bring down the weight of the entire DOJ if the interference were serious enough. Ralph @ STReport International Online Magazine ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 61 Thu Nov 26, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 08:42 EST I'm not sure that a 486 emulator (at least until Atari makes a true 32 bit Falcon), would pffer enough speed to make the cost worthwhile. I'd try an AMD 386sx running at 33 mhz, I'm told those chips are dang cheap nowadays too! Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 62 Thu Nov 26, 1992 S.WINICK at 09:33 EST The FCC rules and regulations regarding classification of equipment are clearly intended to protect to public. The FCC is not the enemy. The purpose of the Class B certification is to ensure that electronic equipment operated in a residential environment will not interfere with your neighbors enjoyment of his electronics. You wouldn't want him to operate something that interfered with your 'stuff' either. Besides computers themselves, other Class A devices that are typically used in commercial computer installations include laser printers, large screen monitors, pen plotters, etc. Class B certified equipment has been shown through testing that it should not interfere with electronics that could typically be expected to be used in similar environments. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 63 Thu Nov 26, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:34 EST Ron, The only additional space required by the additional 24 pins to the PDS (16 data and 8 address) would be .12 square inches (based on a standard connector with .1" spacing). These pins could occupy the space formerly occupied by the circuitry they ADDED to reduce the PDS and data bus down to 16 bits. Besides, there's a lot more space for the motherboard in a Tower Case... IDE drives are cheaper if they don't _have_ to be 2.5" wide, Power Supplies are cheaper if they don't _have_ to be as small as possible to design, and motherboards are less expensive to design if they don't _have_ to fit an existing enclosure (for reasons which will become clear to, and please, everyone!). Things that make you go "hmmmmmmmmm"? ___________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 64 Thu Nov 26, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 12:20 EST Thunderbird - Local bus has even gone further than your example. The latest Gateway machines have two local bus slots - one used by a video card - and also have two IDE hard drive ports wired to the local bus. Each IDE port can handle two drives. I don't know what they would use the second slot for, but there will probably be a future use developed (maybe SCSI?). In the meantime, memory, video, and storage are now on a 32bit bus. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 65 Thu Nov 26, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 12:35 EST Jim - So, let me get this straight... Nowadays, the lowly inexpensive PC clone has a motherboard which includes all the advantages that the Atari ST has enjoyed over the PC in the past, only it has twice as much of it (32 bits)? ____________________ \hunderbird Awwww shucks! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 66 Thu Nov 26, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 14:26 EST In re: FCC, Interestingly enough I have found that while most DOS computers are class B, a lot of the peripherials are not. I have seen many monitors, printers, modems, etc. which are clearly labeled Class A. I have found with my Ham equipment that keyboards and monitors are much worse offenders than are the computers themselves! Mike Allen, K4JEM ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 67 Thu Nov 26, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 18:32 EST Jim, what incorrect data? I quoted a statement from John T. where he said "The CPU does see RAM as 32 bits wide." >Category 14, Topic 20 >Message 134 Thu Nov 19, 1992 >TOWNS [John@Atari] at 21:24 EDT > > The CPU does see RAM as 32 bits wide. The CPU maintains things > internally as 32 bit. The specifications were correct the 68030 > (the CPU) is 32 bits internally. > ------------ And another European Atari source posted video RAM as 32 bit wide. >Atari-ST RoundTable >Category 14, Topic 20 >Message 44 Wed Nov 25, 1992 >ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 16:21 EST > >Soul Manager: > > I don't see why 2 or 8 megs couldn't be accomplished using this > > method. Of course there may be some hidden hardware reason that we > > don't know about yet. > >1 Mb is 32, 256 Kbit RAMs 4 Mb is 32, 1 Mbit RAMs 14Mb is 32, 4 Mbit RAMs >(actually this is 16Mb, 2Mb mapped out for ST I/O space and ROMs) > >## 32 chips width is necessary for video access, so you can't have >## 16 chips like in the ST(E). > >If 512 Kbit and 2Mbit RAMs exist (no!) than 2 and 8 Mb are also possible. Yes, >it's the hardware. > > Regards, > Wilfred > ---------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Someone asked about an assembler for the DSP -- good news! There is already one available in the libraries. > >Atari-ST RoundTable >Number: 26528 Name: ASM56.ZIP >Address: M.KELLING2 Date: 921114 >Approximate # of bytes: 142592 >Number of Accesses: 32 Library: 3 >Description: >This is an assembler to program the DSP56001 chip used in the new >ATARI Falcon. It produces programs which rrun during interupts >after being loaded into the DSP chip. It works, but since a >Falcon was unavailable, therre is no way to know if resultant >programs will actually run. Source code included from Motorola. >Write some great programs for the new Falcon! >Use ST ZIP version 2.0 or newer to extract. >Keywords: ASSEMBLER, DSP, 56001, FALCON, C, SOURCE, SAMPLES >---------- Ron @ Atari Explorer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 68 Thu Nov 26, 1992 R.WILSON36 [Bob Wilson] at 19:41 EST Scott The 4000 Gateway systems a day seems like a high estimate. However, not very. Dell is now an over 2 billion per year company. Given 2500 for the average system (probably high) you get a number of about 3000 per day. Gateway is pushing Dell hard and I would be surprised if their daily shipments are not higher than Dell at this point (lower price better performance). Put in other terms. If ATARI sells 48,000 units at a revenue of 1000 per machine (unlikely since the top machine is 1300 at full list). they generate 48 million of revenue. Pretty pathetic, and not remotely enough to keep the company afloat. Remember Sam's boast about selling more in a month than NEXT in a year. If they ship only 1000 a month to North America the NEXT developers will drop them like a stone. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 69 Thu Nov 26, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:20 EST Last time I got an official number, Gateway was making 12,000 units a month...that was 18 months ago ;-) Ron, another JT post here a week earlier than the one you quoted was more specific, the 68030 chip is connected to the memory controller using only 16 data bits...period. Just like a ClassicII or LCII. In the post you quote he was refering to the fact that the 68030...and 68000...are 32bits internally _and_ that SOFTWARE running on the 68030 "sees" the memory as 32bits wide....that's because ALL memory looks like 32bits wide to all 680x0 processors, you as a programmer can use MOVE.L type 32bit instructions with ANY size data bus width. That is NOT the case nessecarily with all 32bit 486 instructions. So telling people here or elsewhere that the Falcons databus is 32bits is simply incorrect...it ISN'T. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 70 Thu Nov 26, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:48 EST Ron, I'm afraid it is true that the CPU 'sees' RAM only 16 bits wide. The whole 'Internally' thing is just Atari's way of saying that they _really_ didn't lie about it in their press releases. As I said before, the 68000 has the SAME 32 bit internal registers as the 68030, yet we all know it is a 16 bit CPU. For that matter, the 68008 has the same 32 bit internal registers, yet it is known as the 8-bit version of the 68000. The 6502 in my 800XL has a 16 bit internal register, yet is defined as an 8-bit CPU. The standard by which the number of bits a CPU is defined as is the number of data bits that the CPU can transfer simultaneously from RAM. A programmer writing code for the 680x0 series of processor 'sees' the RAM as 32 bits, because the CPU takes care of the business of getting all 32 bits and putting them together into a 32 bit number, 8 or 16 or 32 bits at a time. In other words, it is easy for a programmer to mistake the 680x0 for a 32 bit CPU, because everything inside it is 32 bits wide. The fact that the CPU connects to RAM via a 16 bit bus just means that it takes a lot longer for all 32 bits to get from the RAM to the 'internal' registers of the CPU. If the CPU- RAM bus were fully 32 bits wide, the program wouldn't have to pause to wait for all 32 bits to get to the CPU every time RAM was read. An analogy to this is your RS-232 port. Your modem transfers data 1 bit at a time through the phone lines and into the RS-232 port. The data is collected in a register in the 68B901 in your ST (If you are using an ST) and forms 8 bits 'internal' to the chip. If your RS-232 port provided 8 data inputs instead of 1, you could transfer all 8 bits at the same time (8 times as fast). You would still have 8 bits 'internally', but you'd get them there a lot faster. Of course no RS-232 ports have such a setup, but it makes a good comparison. By the way, the Falcon030 RAM is reported to be 32 bits wide because the path from the video hardware to the RAM is reported to be 32 bits wide. This means that the video hardware grabs memory 32 bits at a time, but the CPU does not. To my recollection, nobody has stated if the BLiTTER has a 32 bit wide path to the RAM, which would make it blindingly fast in comparison to the ST BLiTTER. I suspect that this too is only a 16 bit device. The reason I say this is because they made a big fuss about the clock speed of the BLiTTER being increased, and _did not_ say anything about it's bus width being increased. They wouldn't have missed a bragging opportunity about something like that (because it would be a truly awesome achievement to brag about). That's all folks! ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 71 Thu Nov 26, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 23:52 EST John, Your little excursion into hypothetical situations didn't do very much. The fact is that the FCC CAN confiscate equipment if it is found to interfer with other things. Granted, this is usually only if someone complains but, it can and has happened. The whole point I try to make is that we keep getting the TT shoved down our throats as a system to buy that is real and being produced versus a system that isn't shipping yet. The BIG difference is that the TT is CLASS A and the Falcon is CLASS B (or supposed to be). The TT is by all rights a nice system but, dealers should not keep trying to force a CLASS A device as a solution to our computer needs for whatever. I am in need of a little more powerful system (although my MSTE is a real nice machine). Since I do however live in a residental area and the possibilty of interfernce exist, I cannot take that risk. I would rather buy another powerful machine that IS CLASS B or buy the SST or TinyTurbo030 than a TT. The MSTE is not a slouch and with a nice VME card I can upgrade the video to a higher resolution but, the cost of the card alone would just about purchase a Falcon. Besides, there is a lot more to the Falcon for the extra few bucks. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 72 Fri Nov 27, 1992 CBARRON at 01:49 EST FYI the TT I have refers to the same sections of the FCC regulations (sticker is on the bottom of the CPU Box) that the sticker on a 1040STe does. The numbers I forget, but is not the Ste class B. Nuff Said. depends on your TT if it class A or not. My TT is on almost continuously in this appartment complex and not a stick of noise from anyone. If there was any signifigant problem it would develop in under the two months that this has been running almost continuously. If this TT is really class A why does it's sticker look similiar in content to that of an STe. The numbers of the fcc code references are the same. Hmm.. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 73 Fri Nov 27, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 02:18 EST Jim and Thunderbird, thanks for the interesting replies on RAM bus size vs CPU performance. I do appreaciate the time taken to explain things. I'm not trying to be a pest -- honest! :-) But based on information available here, I'm not yet convinced Falcon CPU to RAM is only 16 bits. I went further back and read John's earlier messages. Things are not clear to me based on his posts. More interesting are the Quick Index numbers. From your descriptions, the computer side of the Falcon is essentially a MSTe with a '030 processor -- right? If both computers are running at 16 MHz and 16 bit data busses, why would Falcon memory access benchmarks be *three* times faster than the MSTe? Shouldn't that benchmark be primarily a function of clock speed and bus width? Looking again at the Falcon Quick Index numbers: Falcon MSTe 32MHz SST ========================================= Memory 487 161 989 Register 406 199 Division 507 199 Shift 1737 203 The internal register numbers are double the MSTe. The "Memory" number is 487! My MSTe gets a 161. A 32 bit, 32 MHz SST is reported to get 989 <-- double the clock speed, double the Falcon number! [SLP (Scott) pointed this out earlier but everyone ignored him.] I have another source showing the "NBM 12" memory number at 343 for the Falcon compared to 149 on the MSTe, again, better than double. How could a Falcon access memory 4.87 times faster than the ST, 3 times faster than a MSTe or almost exactly half a 32 MHz, 32 bit '030 based SST if it did not have a full width bus? Something interesting must be happening here if it is. Ron @ Atari Explorer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 74 Fri Nov 27, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 03:27 EST Lou - You are assuming that Falcon is a masculine noun. Its gender may very well be feminine, in which case the singular and plural would be "Falca" and "Falcae," respectively (speaking as a former Latin scholar myself). Of course, the point is moot, since all of this is of course about as far from Latin as you can get (but just for kicks, please list the declentions of "femina"). Wilfred - Thanks for the info. But I still don't understand something. For 32 bit RAM, I can see the points you make, but for 16 bit RAM (which is what we're talking about), why can't other configurations be done? The TT can see RAM in other increments, and it has a 68030, after all. Well, perhaps I'm letting my hardware ignorance really show through, but I'd just like to understand this. I think it's rather silly to limit memory expansion to three numbers, when any other 32 bit system can use 8 megs if it wants to. As for the discussion of local bus slots on clone boards: I was under the impression that this added a lot in cost to the system. Do you need a 486DX for local bus slots? I ask because I might need to get a clone (groan!), and would like to get a 386DX with local bus slots and upgrade to a 486 when cash flow improves. Any specifics anyone can give would be appreciated (Email might be the best place). Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 75 Fri Nov 27, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 03:41 EST T-Bird, Bill Rehbok stated during his Falcon RTC that the blitter was 16-bit. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 76 Fri Nov 27, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 04:31 EST ATARI.BENELUX - Well, I've heard that there ARE such things as 512kb and 2Mb DRAM's. J.ROY18 - I believe the Falcon TOS version is 4.01 (it IS 4.xx, though!). POTECHIN - Though I hate to say so, pirate BBS's are often the ONLY place some Atari users are able to get an inkling of support. SLP - As much as I want Atari to sell a lot of computers, I hope they NEVER consider Wal-Mart as an official outlet. REALM - I'm with you on not being disappointed in the Falcon030 itself, however negative I may have been. I'm just worried is all. If it makes people feel any better, even Apple made it's 32MHz 68030-based Mac IIvx a 16-bit bus machine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 77 Fri Nov 27, 1992 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 05:46 EST Ron - a 68030 can handle 32, 16 and 8 bit databusses and will see them as 32- bit by simple loading the data in 1 , 2 or 4 times (so that it always use 32 bits) By using the signals DSACK0 and DSACK1 you can inform the 68030 which bus size he's on. That's why somebody here said 'I am glad a 68040 does not have DSACK'. I think most of the people missed the point. Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 78 Fri Nov 27, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 07:16 EST With the Falcon030 being a replacement for the STE and Atari wanting it be as compatible as possible, is probably why they went the route they did. I just wish them luck and hope the Falcon takes off because I want to see a TT replacement that is class B. Hopefully Atari has not put the limitations on the next generation of Falcons (if there is one) that they did for this version. Hopefully they will make it a true 32 bit system. The only problem (and it may or may not be) is that stuff made for the PDS slot will have to be redone for the 32 bit PDS slot (if they make it a 32 bit slot). I was hoping Atari would design a bus that would stay stable instead of flip flopping between bus systems. By all means I am not hoping that the PDS remain 16 bit in the future Falcon. If they would have made the PDS slot 32 bit to begin with, then they wouldn't have to worry about that. Anyway, all this is moot since they are already in production and I hope they don't do the Falcon like they did the ST Book. Let the base unit come in and take the US by storm and then give the power users what they want in a new version. Lets just wait and see and hope it goes over well. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 79 Fri Nov 27, 1992 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 07:21 EST Hehehe... now we have a Latin discussion in the Falcon topic ;-) Yes, I presumed Falcon was masculine... but only because the whimsical use of the word Falci would have to have been declined from Falcus. If the new computer was the feminine gender, its plural would be "Falcae", as you pointed out. More appropriately, the gender should be neutral.. making the singular "Falcum" and the plural "Falca". The declensions of "femina"? - femina, feminae, feminae, feminam(?), femina, feminae. Did I pass? It's been a long time ;-) To everyone else, I apologize for this scholastic digression (hehehehehe) Steve Johnson.... >POTECHIN - Though I hate to say so, pirate BBS's are often the ONLY >place some Atari users are able to get an inkling of support. I have never been on a pirate board but it is my guess that those users are more interested in files than support. If you mean that they are downloading "demo" files or utilities and program patches, then I would interpret your definition of support much differently than it is used here in the BB. As a frequent GEnie user, I am sure you would agree that there is NO developer support on any pirate BBS like there is here on GEnie. In fact, is there ANY developer support on ANY pirate BBS? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 80 Fri Nov 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:34 EST Wayne, Perhaps Jim Allen can clear this up, because your message brings up an interesting point. Does an accelerator board in an ST have to pass any kind of FCC testing to go to market? Another thing, most people blame the cable company for _any_ interference they get on their TV's. Few people have the ambition to go through the red- tape necessary to file a complaint with the FCC, provided that they had enough ambition and knowlege needed to track _you_ down as the offender. Suffice it to say that Atari does _not_ make a 32 bit computer which most of us can legally use. Ron, I didn't ignore the fellow who posted the Qindex numbers earlier. Maybe you didn't catch my post. In a nutshell, what I said was that the numbers themselves are difficult to explain because I do not have access to the source code to those benchmark programs. The SST benchmark itself may be operating on 32 bit RAM, or it may not be 'aware' of that RAM, and is operating on the 16 bit "ST RAM". If it _is_ running in and working on the 16 bit "ST RAM", then it is subject to the exact same limits as the Falcon030. Because the '030 is running at 32MHz, the SST will get twice the speed, hence the Qindex numbers you posted. If I knew what Qindex _did_ for sure, I could say that your mystery was solved. Also, notice Mike Allen's post that the BLiTTER is 16 bit. This tends to support the theory that there is a 16 bit bottleneck built into the Falcon030. Plus... a lot of people seem to think that saying "Yeah, but the Mac XXXX and the '386SX machines have a 16 bit bus, so what are you complaining about???". To them I have 2 statements: 1) I thought that the point of owning an Atari meant that you wanted a computer which did not suffer the weaknesses of other platforms. Just because someone else makes a mistake does make it right. 2) We were _told_ numerous times that this machine had a 32 bit CPU to RAM bus, then reluctantly told otherwise. I find this trend very, very, disturbing. ______ ____________ \hirty\wobird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 81 Fri Nov 27, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 13:17 EST Steve: That is a justification and an excuse. The online services give you plenty of support without advocating piracy. The local club BBs give you support..etc... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 82 Fri Nov 27, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 15:40 EST FCC, Latin, Pirate BBSes -- I'm glad the syscops are all taking naps after that big Thanksgiving dinner :-) If we aren't careful, GEnie is going to get heatburn over the size of this topic. W. Kilwinger, now I understand! The "alphabet soup" mnemonics (DTACK, DSACK', ...) tend to get all crossed up in my aging neuruons. If you get a chance, tell us a little about ATARI.BENLUX please. (in another topic of course :-) Thunderbird, the MBM benchmark used ST ram in the TT so it sounds like a program on the Falcon would run as fast as it would on a TT in ST ram? Is ST ram in the TT 16 bits wide? I should have stayed awake in Atari Computer 101 ;-) If so, and it helps compatibility, sounds like a reasonable trade off to me. Three times faster memory moves than a MSTe for half the intro cost and double the features isn't too shabby in any event :-) Ron @ Atari Explorer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 83 Fri Nov 27, 1992 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 16:05 EST Soul Manager: >Wilfred - Thanks for the info. But I still don't understand something. For >32 bit RAM, I can see the points you make, but for 16 bit RAM (which is what >we're talking about), why can't other configurations be done? The TT can see >RAM in other increments, and it has a 68030, after all. Well, perhaps I'm >letting my hardware ignorance really show through, but I'd just like to >understand this. I think it's rather silly to limit memory expansion to three >numbers, when any other 32 bit system can use 8 megs if it wants to. We are not talking about 16 bit, we need 32 bit for the video logic. That's why that memory board is 32 bit although the system has an 16 bit databus. The bus between memory and Videl (video) is 32 bit. Let's say it's a matter of design. Other systems like TT can have other configurations because they are differently designed (organised). S.JOHNSON10 [Steve]: >ATARI.BENELUX - Well, I've heard that there ARE such things as 512kb and 2Mb >DRAM's. Yes, I heard years ago something about 512Kbit but I never heard something about 2Mbit DRAM (I believe that static 2Mbit RAMs exists). But the all may exist. >POTECHIN - Though I hate to say so, pirate BBS's are often the ONLY place some >Atari users are able to get an inkling of support. I don't think that downloading TOS 4.0 has anything to do with support. It will NOT run on any other system than the Falcon030. Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 84 Fri Nov 27, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 17:56 EST Well spoke Thunderbird! And what's more disturbing is how few people here are upset over the dis- information Atari shovelled out. Kind of reminds me of the frequent behavior pattern of abused children that still insist after years of torture that their parents are really "good" mommies and dadies. That being said I just wish the Falcons would be released in North America so we can all find out if they'll pull Atari from the ashes like some mythical Phoenix, or if we'll all be buying Macs and Amigas a year from now. -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 85 Fri Nov 27, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 18:22 EST Wow, all this stuff that I had to catch up on from just a week of not reading...SHEESH! Where to begin? I guess I'll start with that which sticks out at me the most; J.ROY18- Please send me the number for the Pirate BBS and a password to log on there with. I'll d/l the copy of TOS 4.0 that they have on there and test it for you. I'll ask our corporate counsel if he cares to join me while we log onto to the BBS. Maybe he'll want to help me test the software as well. Anything else I should look for while on this BBS? Naturally, a response in e-mail is fine, rather than going public. However, I do expect the number of the BBS...of that make no mistake. I'm a little at a loss where the current projections of Falcon production is coming for? Who's the source for this rumor??? Our production forecast is for approx. 350,000 machines for 1993. Half of those are earmarked for the US. Crunch all you want, and we'll make more. :) Re the PC emulator for the processor slot...the one that was shown at COMDEX was an early working prototype of a 286. The 286 version will be sold very inexpensively, and there will be a 486SX version available by January. In color. Jerry Richter, I cannot believe that you showed up at COMDEX and didn't even take the time to come over and introduce yourself. Or were you the guy that was leaning on a Falcon asking me "Where the hell are the Falcons at, Brodie?" I enjoyed that guy... Seriously, I'd have been happy to spend time with you, and make sure that you were introduced to all of the developers so they could tell you about their products, and their plans. That would have prevented your from commenting about the B & W version of the PC board, which will never see a dealers shelf in it's present configuration. :) If you'd have spoken to Theo Bruers of Compo, he'd have explained to you that they had a last minute set back on the PC Board, and had to really hustle just to get a prototype available at the show. He might have even told you that I was the one pressuring him to do that...and he'd be right! I think that it's very clear that you're after a higher end unit that the Atari Falcon030, and that's fine. However, we envision the unit as a basic home computer. That vision is shared by other companies, like Eastman Kodak, that recognize the one piece design as a plus. It's much easier to gather the family around the TV with a Photo-CD hooked up to an Atari than it is to do it with ANY other computer on the market. Most of the rest of the units aren't in the family room, they're in Dad's office, or on a desk somewhere else in the home. :) Steve Johnson, I'm *shocked* to see you describe a Pirate BBS as one of the places that an Atari user can get an inkling of support. That's really, really poor. I suppose the fact that they are also destroying proper support channels by their piracy has never crossed your mind?? I assure you that it has crossed the mind of every developer that has a product on the market. See my message to J.ROY18, and feel free to pass along some numbers to me. Not that I need that kind of "support". regards, Bob Brodie PS- Hi Wifred!! Great to see you on here!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 86 Fri Nov 27, 1992 BRIAN.H [ST~SysOp] at 19:59 EST Steve >POTECHIN - Though I hate to say so, pirate BBS's are often the ONLY place some What type of support? The lastest cracked game? If you pirate then you will definitely kill the Atari! If you support pirated BBSs then you support pirates! Now back to our regular scheduled program. *******Brian********* Written on Friday 27 November 1992 at 08:08 p.m. AST ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 88 Fri Nov 27, 1992 A.PAGE3 [Alan Page] at 22:32 EST Ron, The 68030 has both an instruction cache and a data cache on chip. It's possible that some benchmarks might not accurately reflect bus size due to the code/data being found in the caches. Also the caches could be getting filled while an instruction that doesn't access the data bus is being executed, since the 68030 overlaps instruction executions. The 68030 is quite efficient at using the bus. Tests by Motorola show that adding wait states (which also slows down memory access) affects the 68030 significantly less than the 68020. Zero wait states on the 68030 means two clock cycles. Doubling that cause performance on one benchmark to go down to 85% of zero wait state performance. Tripling to 6 clock cycles brought performance down to 75%. Obviously there has to be a penalty for having a 16-bit bus, but it may not be nearly as bad as 50%. In some cases it may be a lot less. Quote from Motorola technical data: "the autonomous nature of the caches allows instruction stream fetches, data fetches, and a third external access to all occur simultaneously with instruction execution." - Alan P.S. adding wait states to the 80386 degrades performance almost linearly, hence the almost universal use of caches on high speed 80386 systems. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 89 Fri Nov 27, 1992 J.BRIGHAM at 22:39 EST Scott In a short defense of Chuck, the 'toy' look is "out"! The power look is in. I think all of us want to stay Atari owners, but the 'POWER WITHOUT THE PRICE" is slowly fading fast. Try taking a 1040ST in an accounting office and they will probably ask you what games it plays. Sometimes, appearances can sell many machines and why not yield to the consumer. After all, the object is to sell as many computers as you can. This helps to expand its user base, too. Maybe Atari marketing specialist (s) should take note that price,power,appearance, quality, and support can sell alot more than Atari is selling now in the US. I'm not trying to criticize...I'm just making an observation. Brig ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 90 Fri Nov 27, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:30 EST Ron, I'm going to attmept to pictorally illustrate the differences in the Falcon and TT computers, to explain the NBM numbers you see. Atari TT030 with 8 Megabytes of TT RAM and 4 Megabytes of ST RAM and 32MHz 68030 Microprocessor: +-------+ +-------+ +------+ Notes ! !==! !==! ! ! !==! !==! ! NBM runs in ST RAM only ! !==! !==! ! ! TT !==! 32MHz !==! ST ! ST RAM is 16 bit RAM, ! RAM !==! 68030 ! ! RAM ! (Same as Falcon030) ! !==! ! ! ! ! !==! ! ! ! 68030 is 32 Mhz, ! !==! ! ! ! (Twice Falcon030 speed) +-------+ +-------+ +------+ ^ ^ 32 Bit Bus 16 Bit Bus Atari Falcon03030 with 14 Megabytes of RAM, and 16MHz 68030 Microprocessor: +-------+ +------+ Notes ! !==! ! ! !==! ! 1) All RAM is 16 bits wide ! !==! ! ! 16MHz !==! ! 2) CPU runs at 1/2 TT speed ! 68030 ! ! RAM ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! +-------+ +------+ ^ 16 Bit Bus So, as you can see, the benchmark running on a TT030 in "ST RAM" is equivalent to running a benchmark on a Falcon030, except the clock speed is doubled. Essentially, "ST RAM" can be equated to "Falcon RAM" because it is 16 bits wide. Your numbers support this illustration, because it shows that the CPU clock speed is the only difference between the two benchmarks. Considering that the clock speed of the TT is twice that of the Falcon030, and all else is roughly equal, we would expect the benchmark will show that the TT is twice as fast as the Falcon. The numbers you quoted for the TT were almost exactly double those for the Falcon030, proof of the theory. In other words, a Falcon030 is a lot like a TT030 with no "TT RAM" in it, and a 1/2 speed CPU. If you know someone with a TT that could run a benchmark in "TT RAM", and then run the same benchmark in "ST RAM", it should illustrate the performance increase you would have seen, had the Falcon030 been a true 32 bit machine. The "TT RAM" should be about twice as fast. I hope this helps explain it to you. Okay? ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 91 Sat Nov 28, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 00:02 EST Scott, Glad I touched a nerve! In your rage to reach my jugular you missed my entire point. Atari can build whatever computer they choose to. In previous posts I have called the Falcon a *GREAT* entry level machine, which it is. My b*tch is the apparent misleading initial information of the Falcon being a "true" 32 bit machine, that 3rd party developers had to pull teeth to find out otherwise. I satisfied my own need for "blood" at Bob's RTC tonite. I'm willing to chalk up most of the dis-information to Bob being off-line for the last couple of months and a behind-the-scenes-comedy-of-errors that we'll never know about. :) Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 92 Sat Nov 28, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 00:02 EST Atari did say that the Falcon is backwards compatible and that programs that broke on the TT because of the 32 bit ram address would work on the Falcon because of the way it was designed. Hopefully it wouldn't be too hard to make Falcon/TT (32 bit) ram for the Falcon. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 93 Sat Nov 28, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 01:35 EST Thanks Alan, I can see where the '030 data and instruction pre-fetch can lessen the impact of a smaller data bus. I did not know the '030 was that much better than the '020, very interesting. Thanks also Thunderbird, nice ASCII block diagrams, the poet in me appreciates the art ;-) I do understand now, never made the mental connection to TT-ST ram being 16 bit before . Ron @ Atari Explorer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 94 Sat Nov 28, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:07 EST EXPLORER.1 - John said that the Falcon030 "sees" RAM as 32 bits wide, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's a 32-bit bus between the 68030 and RAM. There IS a 32-bit bus between RAM and the COMBEL and the COMBEL and the VIDEL, but from everything I've heard, all other bus connections are 16-bit. D.ENGEL - From what I understand, there's a 32-bit bus between RAM and the COMBEL (which includes the BLiTTER), but that the BLiTTER itself only does 16- bit accesses. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 95 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 02:16 EST Bob, Sorry.. I wanted to get over to see you but I only had (1) day to spend in the Sands... Yes I know it was an "early" release of the PC board!.. but I think it was UNWISE to show something HALF DONE considering the Dis\Mis-Information Atari has been shoveling at us recently! and you know what I am talking about! There is nothing wrong with a sixteen-bit 16MHZ system!! just not in 1993 when most of the NEW "low-end" PC's will be 32bit 486 based! and Bob.. Please tell me that ATARI will CAN the "CHEAPIE" keyboard!! This keyboard has NO place on a system selling for OVER $1200 !! and you know it... Bob.. its a matter of "Perceived Quality" always has been always will be.. The keyboard I am now typing on is the Mega4.. its great! and PLEASE don't mention the Falcon as a $799 unit.. That system is unusable and you know it! The Falcon is indeed a FUN system.. but you still have to type on the darn thing DON'T YOU? And PLEASE... don't tell me you guys just didn't know (Bill Rehbock included) or you were "Out of touch" (I'm is the business) the Falcon030 was a "16 bit" system all-along! If Atari would have been HONEST in your FIRST Genie session we might have understood... AFTER THIS SIXTEEN BIT FIASCO do you blame us for being just a little hurt! Bob, I listened at the booth as one after another ATARIAN shook their heads after typing on the Falcon030... and before they could even get to the GREAT THINGS the Falcon CAN DO they would walk away saying "Sheesh same old thing "... "what a shame.." "Get a real computer" ....... I still wish Atari ALL THE LUCK in the World.. (My wife and I own 2000 shares!!) ThunderBIRD!! Thanks for the VERY GOOD 32 bit memory explanation! Here's waiting for the "New and Improved" Falcon030/040.. Jerry Richter ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 96 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 03:48 EST The TT has a 32bit path to its "ST RAM". This ram is very slow though, it is bogged down with a slow video design. The Falcon has a 16bit path to ram, this ram is quite a bit faster than they've done in the past, so it sort of evens out. The 490% or about number in Qindex is acheived simply by having a 16Mhz or higher 68030 chip running with the caches on. Whether it's a 16Mhz Tiny030 or a 16Mhz TT or a 16Mhz Falcon, you get the same number. The 2X speed versus the MegaSTE in NBM comes from the fact that the 68030 runs 1 less clock cycle per access...3 rather than 4...compared to the 68000 chip, and that the Falcon's ram system IS much faster than the older "ST RAM" design Atari had used all the way through from the 520ST to the TT. The point being, if the databus were 32bits instead, the Falcon would be 4X the MSTE, rather than 2X ;-) The point about current and future PDS is a good one. When a developer of HARDWARE builds things, it's nice to have a standard to work with. Even if it's not a "standard" standard (big name, etc) the point is to decide on an architecture and STICK WITH IT! So hopefully, if they do make a 32bit PDS in a Falcon040, they will lay out the connectors so the first 24/16 is identical to the current PDS, and the additional signals are added on one or two extra connectors. That way a Falcon030 PC card could perhaps still function in the Falcon040, and enhanced Falcon040 cards could make use of the Falcon040 PDS's extra capabilites. We'll see if there's enough collective IQ left onboard to realize _that_ would be a sensible thing to do ;-) The Falcon's memory design is simple, it supports ONE row of rams, 32bits wide. So you can make a board that is 1Megabyte, or 4 Megabytes, or 16 Megabytes. You can do this by: using 32, 256Kx1 chips using 8, 256Kx4 chips to make 1Megabyte or using 32, 1Megx1 chips using 8, 1Megx4 chips to make 4Megabytes or using 32, 4Megx1 chips using 8, 4Megx4 chips to make 16Megabytes That's IT FOLKS. No other configurations are possible at the present time with the standard Dram chips the memory controller is designed to use. There are LOTS of wacky ram chips out there, but the Falcon wasn't designed to use them. The important point is, there is ONE "RAS" signal produced by the memory controller, so the options are limited, but the memory controller is much simpler. Also remember that the 16Megabyte size isn't all useable, because when you want to talk to the 15th megabyte, the Falcon diverts you to the ROM chips. And when you want to talk to the 16th megabyte, the Falcon diverts you to the various IO/peripheral chips. The 68030 as used in the Falcon...only the first 24 address bits used...only has a useable address space of 16Megabytes TOTAL, so something has to be lost out of maximum RAM that can be used, in order to allow access to other things, like roms and io. The memory array is really HAMMERED in the Falcon, the pagemode drams are used in pagemode, and the video ciruit grabs multiple 32bit chunks in rapid fire, and loads them into a fifo in the video controller. This cuts down on the % of time the video hardware needs from total memory bandwidth, to supply the screen refresh. Since the memory is so heavily HAMMERED on, it's unlikely that any kind of fiddling with wacko ram configurations will be possible. Hope that explains it....PERMANENTLY. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 97 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 04:00 EST Also, the MacIIvx has a 32bit memory bus, but it operates at a 16Mhz clock rate (because the MacIIvi is a 16Mhz unit and the same chipset supports both) so it's performance doesn't live up to the 32Mhz CPU potential. No problem, in February they will introduce a 33Mhz 68040 version of the MacIIvx...I like the case, but await the speed ;-) So the Qindex's are: Falcon MSTE Turbo030 487 165 1385 But I can tell you, the T030 is MUCH MUCH faster than the Falcon, more than the 3 times faster the numbers come out to ;-) Considering the price of 486 PC systems, it seems nutty to bother with a PC emulator anymore. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 98 Sat Nov 28, 1992 SLP at 07:59 EST Sorry Chuck. I realized that I was a bit harsh after I posted the message, but when I tried to delete it I couldn't find it (I posted in topic 1 by mistake) All I was saying is what good does it do to complain? You might as well make the best of things. Every company makes the most of specs to market their product. The new Amiga has 64bit video, Apple Macs are also IBM compatible, etc. Scott ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 99 Sat Nov 28, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 08:42 EST Scott, No problem! I don't know who I'm kidding anyway....most likely I'll buy an entry-level Falcon the first chance I get! :) Best, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 100 Sat Nov 28, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 10:44 EST Jim Allen: Are you telling me that the ST RAM in the TT030 is actually 32 bits wide? Ack! It looks like my theory was wrong! Oh well. It just goes to show you that info on the TT030 is also pretty unreliable, and scarce. SLP: I thought that the new Amiga video chips were 32 bits and not 64. This was posted by the Amiga folks, so who is wrong? __________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 101 Sat Nov 28, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 11:45 EST I was one of the first to also put down the Falcon for it's 16 bit busses. I guess if we had been told from the beginning, it wouldn't have hit so hard. As I have listened/read here and from Atari, it finally sunk in the words they used to describe this incarnation of Falcons. They are ENTRY level machines designed to replace the STE. As an STE replacement, it is 10 times better than the STE in all respects. It makes a GREAT replacement for the STE. The sound on the STE is pretty good but, the Falcon's is much better. The graphics are better, and so on. This Falcon will be pretty compatible with existing software. Games will probably have to be updated but, if it takes off as we hope it does, the games will be updated and new ones made. I do hope they pick a bus STANDARD and stick with it. As Jim pointed out, design it so that the 16 bit cards will work and yet still allow 32 bit cards on the future models. It could even work sort of like the IBMs. :::::::::::::::::: ::::::: 16bit PDS 32bit extension Something I had to get out of my head was that the Falcon was not designed to replace the TT. For their BASE model, this Falcon is an awesome machine. Better than anything they have done so far. So, with all criticism aside, this Falcon will be a good replacement for the STE. I do hope for a Mega Falcon030 (or whatever they call it) that will have the seperate keyboard. Even if nothing else changes, that will be a great enhancement to replace the MSTE. Maybe also add a faster CPU like 33mhz. This would be a good mid-level machine. I hope the Falcon does very well. If it doesn't, then the chance of seeing another version of the Falcon will be slim. The only thing I can see that made it so difficult was the fact that we were not informed of the 16bit stuff (or made clear) in the beginning. Atari, be honest with us from the beginning and you will get a lot more respect from your current loyal base. Respect from your loyal current base can go a long way in making you successful once again. We can push them or talk bad about them. Be honest with us and we will help. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 102 Sat Nov 28, 1992 K.SCHAFER4 [Necromancer] at 13:25 EST Re: The FCC goon squad My MSTe is *not* class B, it's one of the very first ones, and no one has come a knocking on my door in the past year or two. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 104 Sat Nov 28, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 13:58 EST Jerry, As always, you have your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. :) I think you're preaching to your own choir though, and overlooking some very significant points here though. Let me help you out just a little bit. First, the PC board is not our product, it is a product of COMPO, a German based developer. Therefore, what ever your feelings are about the information you have gotten from us is quite misplaced with regard to COMPO's new product. We had gone to great lengths in discussions with the "mainstream" computer press to tell them about this product. For most of them, the ability of the Atari Falcon030 to run DOS applications is something they wanted to SEE, not just be told about VAPORWARE. While you, as an Atarian, may not have thought it was wise to see an early version of the product, these people needed to see that it could, and was being done!!!! We need to bring these people on board in order to grow, so having the product in the booth as 100% the correct decision. I appreciate your view on the keyboard, and the single piece design. However, you continue to overlook the fact that the Atari Falcon030 does support a 32 bit path to video, which is critical for the intended market of the machine. That also means that the announcements were NOT incorrect, and ensures fast graphics performance. The CPU path was kept at 16 bits to protect YOUR investment in software, and ensure maximum compatibility. The Atari Falcon030 is 32 bit everywhere that it would not impact compatibility. The Atari Falcon030 has a unique and innovative system, which uses a 16Mhz 68030, the BLiTTER (tm), the 56001 DSP chip, and the DMA. The FPU is optional. No other "32 bit based 486 cheapie" can match this performance. You must compare the entire system if you insist on comparing systems. Let me know what you get for a price on a DSP card, Jerry. Locally, retail pricing on such a card is around $900. For every person you claim you heard in your one day at the Sands that said "what a shame, get a real computer" I must have heard many more that said "When can I get one?", and that includes non- Atarians as well. You're obviously interested in a higher end system, and that's ok Jerry. But please, don't forget that this machine is intended to be a entry level home computer!! While you complain that the $799 system is unsable, a few messages below yours is yet another user saying that's the machine he wants to buy, as soon as he can get one!!! In short, you want a different machine than we've produced. OK. That doesn't mean that the unit we've produced isn't a good computer that will be accepted by many. regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 105 Sat Nov 28, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 15:01 EST Time to give credit were credit is due. Alot of us (me included) moaned that we wanted a 4meg Falcon minus hard-drive so we could roll our own and Atari provided. *Nice* job to whoever is responsible for the new configuration! :) Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 106 Sat Nov 28, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 15:58 EST Jerry, The initial announcements were NOT incorrect in much the same way that Sega and SNES games carts ARE 8 Meg.* ______________________ \hunderbird * Sega and Nintendo tout their games as "8 Meg" cartridges, going against the industry standandard terminology defining a "Meg" of memory as 1 Megabyte (1024 Bytes). Instead, they define a "Meg" as 1 Megabit, or 1/8th of a Megabyte. Why they chose to pursue this line of advertising is anybody's guess. Their misdefinition of "Meg" has become so prolific that now all carts must be quoted in the erroneous denominations, or wrongfully appear 1/8 the scale of a competing cart. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 107 Sat Nov 28, 1992 DARLAH [RT~SYSOP] at 16:34 EST Necromancer: I doubt they will too unless you are interfering with someones viewing/listening pleasure and they are complaining loudly. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 108 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 16:38 EST Bob, Thanks for the HONEST responses!! I will take you points into consideration! Its just they SHOULD have been made in the beginning! and my REAL concern about the PC emulator (maybe you can help us on this one) is the Color VGA emulation may be VERY difficult if not near impossible considering the differences between the ATARI and Most VGA/SVGA graphics boards and Windows 3.1 Video drivers!! and WHY would anyone start off with a 286!! ITS DEAD!! you can buy'em for $25 at the JUNK dealer.. Since ATARI knows that adding the PC software base might be CRITICAL to sales and since ATARI enginners know the Falcon Video BETTER than anyone else, why.. oh why .. not have an ATARI version of the 486SX??. Bob, how many of the GOOD Falcon030 hardware engineers made the trip from Texas to California? This is critical in OUR minds to the future of ATARI R&D!! We have to know that development will continue if we are to consider sticking with the ATARI brand in the future?! Do you think I don't want ATARI to succeed? I mean I have thousands envolved here... therefore I want people to walk up and type on a DECENT keyboard!! the 1040 is DEAD.. BURY IT! I will concede the "Entry Level" idea... but entry level in todays market buys ONE-HELLAVA computer compared to just (1) year ago!! Please, for the sake of ALL ATARI lovers all across AMERICA ... C H A N G E T H E K E Y B O A R D ! ! ! .... before mass production takes place.. Non of us here want to be embarrassed to ask our friends to try out the New Falcon030... and there is nobody here that will want the (1)meg version and you know it! the ONLY reason they would is if they KNEW for sure a 3rd party 4/16 meg board was available! .. are you going to tell us MultiTOS will run in a (1)system?.. ATARI, STOP THE DECEPTION and give us SOME credit for brains... Thanks so MUCH for your candid responses.... Jerry Richter ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 109 Sat Nov 28, 1992 V.VALENTI at 16:44 EST Not only in the Falcon can you utilize the Blitter & DSP, but the way the Prossessor itself handles information. A 486 must carry the 'weight' from the older prosessors. I created a assembly program that messured the number of clock cycles it required. The PC is limited to accessing 64Kbytes at a type, not even including the extra time required to access protected mode. So, I gave the PC a break and made a program to take one byte from memory and move it to a register and back to another location within 640K, the limit of the PC without using Protected Mode. Move byte from $00003 to $2F004, Program is located at $4924B. Move a byte from the beginning of memory to 1/6th up of 640k. The program is located up 1/4 to 640K. PC Version Clock Cycles Program Code 386DX 486DX 2 1 Push DS 5 3 Mov DS,#2F00h 5 3 Mov ES,#0000h 1 1 ES: 2 1 Mov AH,$0003h 2 1 Mov $0004h,AH 4 1 Pop DS --- --- 27 11 Atari Version ST Falcon 5 appr. 2 appr. MOVEB A0,$00003h 3 appr. 2 appr. MOVEB $2F004,A0 --- --- 8 4 Pc's have all that extra code because of the way it handles memory. You have to save DS, or you may lose a pointer of previous data. Then the MOV command 'adds' the value in DS with $0004 The ES is used to 'Shift' the value to ES for one line. The ES is 'added' with $0003 Then you restore the DS to continue the program. The 60000-30 just moves from $00003 to A0 to $2F004, That's it! Well, what does this mean? Even though the 486 may be 'faster' in operation, it does not mean it is 'faster' in Application. ST @ 8mhz .000001 seconds to run the code. Falcon@16mhz .00000025 seconds. (because of 16bit ram - .000000375 appr) 386DX @ 25mhz .00000108 seconds 486DX @ 25mhz .00000044 seconds 486DX @ 33mhz .000000333 seconds An ST in application can run as fast or faster than a 386DX 25mhz. A Falcon in application can run as fast or faster than a 486DX 33mhz. This sample just uses DOS. Can you imagine if you are running under Windows? Now the computer has to toggle in and out of Protected Mode (little slower) & uses the Hard Disk for Virtual Memory (much slower). Do not be fooled, just by raw speed. What's even more exciting is that we did not even consider the DSP, Blitter, or any other chip included in the Falcon. Vince ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 110 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 18:25 EST Valenti, My.. what conclusions you can manipulate with (1) example! Have you considered that the NEWER onboard video chipsets for 486 systems can off-load alot more work from the CPU than the Falcon030 can? Have you seen a 486-33 with the C31 or S3 chipsets? I can scroll through (5) pages of documents in the Windows 3.1 based Word for Windows 2.0b before the Falcon030 could make it through its second page with its new Speedo Font based Word Processor! hmmmmm how come? For one thing the 486-33 runs at 20+mips the 68030 runs at maybe 5-6 mips!! add to this the NEW FOUND speed in the Local Bus video.. WITH 32bit Accesses!! compared to the 16bit accesses through the 16bit Falcon blitter and well.... wrong league! your gonna need the 040' and true 32bit blitter to stay in this league... I suggest you do some REAL side-by-side comparisons with some of the NEWER competiting platforms. But.. speed may not be the reasons along to buy a system!! I think the Falcon.. outa the box.. will be a FUN machine for the average home computer buyer... I use my Mega4 and its speed is FINE for me! and sitting next ot it is a 3886SX with Windows and Winword 2.0b and it speed is OK to me! ... soooo how much speed do you need? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 111 Sat Nov 28, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 19:00 EST Thanks for the info Jim, looks like you have been busy. I doubt anything is ever explained PERMANENTLY . I discovered all messages in this topic prior to 11/23 were archived Monday resulting in my Aladdin archive missing a few key points the first time through. I think you guys have just written the first chapter of "De Re Falcon" for me :-) The bottom line indicates there is much more than just bus width and clock speed involved with computer performance. I won't even mention what software like Warp 9 can do for system peformance. Anyone worried about Falcon keyboard feel can purchase a "TT Touch" kit from Best Electronics. The under $50 kit only takes 15 minutes to install and makes the ST keyboard feel just like the TT. Ron @ Atari Explorer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 112 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 19:11 EST Thunderbird - FYI... NBM will run in either ST Ram or TT Ram, depending upon the ram flag bit setting in the file header. The default is ST Ram - that's the way I compiled it - but it can be changed to TT Ram using the program PRGFLAGS. All - I must admit that, after seeing a couple of Kodak commercials for their photos- on-a-CD, I can see this as a very viable market path for Atari. Of course, in my other hat, as a consumer, I know I would rather see such a device in a single case. CD Rom player in the case, as in some PCs available now. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 113 Sat Nov 28, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 19:13 EST Ouch!! I hope the Atari memory board is upgradable or a third part board comes out that is reasonable. I can install memory for $39.00 per meg. $60.00 per meg is little high. I see the 286 PC emulator for just doing plain Messy DOS stuff. It would be perfect for that. The 486 would be better suited for windows. This gives the customer the choice of just having PC emulation or PC emulation with Windows ability. I would definately want the 1meg NO HD option. I could install the memory cheaper and already have enough HD space. Who says everyone will use MultiTos. For this incarnation, a 1 meg option is ok. If you don't want 1 meg, then don't buy it. It is that simple. There are other people besides us here! As was said earlier, those of use here are looking for something a little more powerful. All I can say is wait for the later versions of the Falcon. Let them get this thing out the door and make some money so we can get an improved version. If you don't like a particular model/make of car, you just don't buy it and go find you one you do like. Noone is forcing anyone to buy this version of the Falcon. Ok, I have a question I hope someone can answer. I have looked through a catalog and have found some monitors that may be usable by this Falcon and others to come. I hope someone can point me to the right monitor as I only want to use 1 monitor. Sony 14" multi-sync 1302A 15.75 - 36khz .25mm pitch Sony 17" " " 1604S 30 - 57khz .25mm pitch ViewSonic 14" multi-sync .25mm pitch, Trinitron tube 31 - 57 khz 70hz refresh 75hz bandwith Arche 14" multi-sync .28mm pitch 72hz refresh non-interlaced Samsung 14" Sync Master 3 .28mm pitch 1024x768. The prices are very resonable. $350 - $990. Also, would I need a non-interlaced or interlaced monitor. All monitors are color. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 114 Sat Nov 28, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:50 EST Vince, I can't comment on your Intel code because I have been fortunate enough to have stayed away from PC assembly code for a number of years, however, I noticed a few errors in your 680x0 code. MOVEB A0, $00003h MOVEB $2F004, A0 would be: move.b $03, d0 ; 12 cycles if source address is ; 16 bits. 16 cycles otherwise. ; move.b d0, $2F004 ; 12 cycles if dest. address is ; 16 bits, 16 cycles otherwise. ; ; Total = 28 cycles Or an easier way of writing the whole thing would be: move.b $0003, $0002F004 ; Move a byte from addr. $0003 ; to addr. $0002F004 (24 cycles) ; ; Total = 24 cycles NOTE: Example timing applies to 68000 ONLY! 68030 Mileage will vary. As you can see, programming the 680x0 series of CPU is about 1 googolplex times as easy as programming any Intel 80x86 CPU! it is good to see we have another convert! P.S. It beats me how the PC _ever_ took off! ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 115 Sat Nov 28, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 19:54 EST Thunderbird, >It just goes to show you that info on the TT030 is also pretty >unreliable, and scarce. You just have to know who to ask. Bob Brodie, >The CPU path was kept at 16 bits to protect YOUR investment in >software, and ensure maximum compatibility I don't buy this. Access to memory at 32 bits shouldn't effect software compatibility at all. I challenge anyone to find me (or write me) a piece of software that works with a 16 bit databus but doesn't work with a 32 bit databus. Timing imcompatibilities do not count. Compatibility _is_ a good reason to limit the address bus to 24 bits, and I think this might be confusing the issue. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 116 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:29 EST The air is thinning out in here. Seems like everyone one has vented their frustration and is now gonna wait for the Falcon... the next generation. I must say I've learned more about computers in the past few weeks than I have in the past 6 years. I still own a 1040stf with four megs. I've overpaid for my Megafile 30 which isn't great. This being said I am totaly satisfied with what I got over the years from My Atari computer. I have made records using it, I have made money selling videos made with Cyber. I will be bying a Falcon as soon as the 14 meg with HD is available in Canada. What most of us will be able to do at in our homes with a Falcon would cost at least $7000 (Cdn) on Mac or IBM. I've been shopping around and the pro software costs a fortune (if you don't pirate, and you should'nt). I hope I won't have to wait more than three months for the Falcon to fly north ;-) Bob Brodie > Any word on the Canadian pricing for Falcons? If I base myself on the list I just saw it looks like a 14 meg 65Hd will be about 2375 Cdn. Also....since I mainly want to do video how much does the PTC1426 monitor go for? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 117 Sat Nov 28, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 21:06 EST Bob was told by one of the "engineers?" that the Falcon was made a 32bit system for compatibility reasons. This IS correct, however, that is a reference to the use of a 24bit address bus...just like the ST/STE machines...not a reference to the size of the DATA bus, which is irrelevent except for the number of pins involved. As a self-proclaimed "expert" on designing computers ;-) I believe the reason the data bus is only 16bits is that they simply didn't have enough pins on the custom chips the wanted to use, to allow a full 32bit path through the memory controller. They'd have had to go to a larger pincount chip, which was probably too expensive versus the cost goals they had to meet to make the project worth doing. Personally, I'd have instead had the ram-cpu data path be 32bits and go through external buffer chips...74FCT245 chips...and added only the one control signal from the memory controller required to operate the buffers. The same 16bit wide CPU connection to the memory controller could remain, as this is the path used to communicate with the built in blitter, and control registers. It's all a matter of fundamental philosophy. I am a firm believer that when you set out to do something...basically arrange some atoms in a specific order...you might ads well arrange them in the best possible way. It's still the same atoms, just make sure they go together WELL!!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 118 Sat Nov 28, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 23:28 EST I need Falcons!! The brains at Guitar Center jumped the gun, and we have a nice quarter page ad (w/ b&w pictures) of the Falcon in our latest flyer... I have IBM people who want to buy it instead of buying D2D soft for there PC.... there is a market, and a good sized one... Curt ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 119 Sat Nov 28, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:53 EST Jim Allen: Since I think we agree that you are by far our greatest expert, could you explain whether it would be difficult for the existing Falcon030 chipset to be expanded to full 32 bits? This would be 32 bits for the BLiTTER and everything else. In other words, aside from the extra cost in the additional pin count chips, is there a lot of engineering involved, or is it more of a "cut and paste" operation in the Custom VLSI CAD package that Atari's engineers use? It seems like the engineering is done already and it just needs duplication... While they are at at, could a "compatability" mode be worked into the hardware, where the upper 8 address lines could be shut off in hardware? _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 120 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.PIERCE5 [Rob] at 00:37 EST Wayne: Ideally, the Sony 1302A you listed seems like the best choice. It can sync low enough to work on an ST, which may be required to operate in the True Color modes on the Falcon. There are very few monitors that can sync that low. They include: NEC 3D (THE choice I think -- it has memory for various sync modes) Panasonic C1391 (the one I own) Princeton Ultra 1400 Sony 1302A Acer (don't know the model, call Toad and ask) There may be a few more, but I can't think of them. Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 121 Sun Nov 29, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:04 EST R.WATSON15 - Well, future Falcon's should have real VMEbus slots, so a PDS isn't really necessary in them. I've also heard that 32-bit fast RAM for the Falcon030 may be on the way, although perhaps as part of a 32MHz+ 68030 upgrade. ST.LOU - Perhaps I should have explained further, but I just made a short (and perhaps vague) statement on it since this is the Falcon030 topic. I simply meant that there are Atari users whose only local support (i.e. support that doesn't COST them money) are BBS's, and sometimes the only supporting BBS's in their area are pirate BBS's. However, I've only personally known of people whose only local support are BBS's that have BOTH PD/shareware areas AND 'elite' areas (for those 'special' users), but pirate BBS's nonetheless. Some of them wish their local BBS's weren't pirate BBS's, but often it's the only local BBS with Atari support. Same thing goes for some user groups. Some of my personal experience as well as the experiences of others have shown that some user groups are simply forums in which to "trade wares." In no way did I mean to condone software piracy. It disgusts me as much as it does others. BOB-BRODIE - I think the 4000/mo. figure came from what John Nagy heard at COMDEX. I'm glad to hear the 350,000 figure (I'd heard around 300,000 a few weeks ago). HALF of those 350,000 are coming here? I loved the "Crunch all you want..." comment! And regarding the pirate BBS comment I made, I simply meant that local BBS's that DO carry pirated software are sometimes the ONLY place to get LOCAL 'support' (perhaps I should have put that word in single quotes before) without cost to the user. I certainly didn't mean that REAL support isn't available ANYWHERE. I'm just talking about on a local level. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 122 Sun Nov 29, 1992 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 03:43 EST >EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 15:40 EST > >FCC, Latin, Pirate BBSes -- I'm glad the syscops are all taking naps after >that big Thanksgiving dinner :-) If we aren't careful, GEnie is going >...) tend to get all crossed up in my aging neuruons. If you get a chance, >tell us a little about ATARI.BENLUX please. (in another topic of course :-) Was that question for me ? (and which topic did you have in mind) Regards, Wilfred ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 123 Sun Nov 29, 1992 T.GIRSCH [T.J.] at 04:18 EST Having given up any hope of learning anything useful in this topic, I have decided to IGN PERM. If I wanted to hear Atari Bashing, I'd download STReport. If anyone from Atari would care to send me specs via E-mail, I'd be content. - T.J. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 124 Sun Nov 29, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 05:17 EST Rob, Thanks. What is the higher end frequency that a monitor might need to be able to do? A couple of those monitor descriptions did not give the frequency range. I wish they had. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 125 Sun Nov 29, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 05:23 EST Lou - Glad you really do know something about Latin, and you weren't just talking through your hat. The thing about noun gender is that you can never be really sure; some things you think should be one gender turn out to be another, etc. It's been a long time for me, too, but here's the declention of "femina (I think):" singular plural -------- ------ femina feminae feminae feminarum feminae feminis feminam feminas femina feminis Unless I'm missing a case, of course. This is fun. Can we start a Latin topic? Curt - You never have confirmed if you work at the Guitar Center in Minnesota, have you? I'd really like to chat sometime if you do... by the way, I used to get GC flyers, but I've moved. Any chance you could adjust my name on the mailing list so I get one of your flyers (I bought my Alesis HR 16:B from you guys a couple years back). Whoever it was that said Atari is going to sell every Falcon it makes is right. They really do have a market, one well beyond the scope of their present users. Now we need machines to fill the void. Let's see, November's pretty much shot... I hope I can at least see one in December... Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 126 Sun Nov 29, 1992 C.OINES1 [Chazz] at 08:45 EST I'm one of those quiet ones who's got $200 down on a Falcon (any option, just GIMME) at Toad's... I already have a hard drive waiting for it, and figure on upgrading the ram as funds permit. I haven't gotten involved in the picky little arguments going on since I seriously doubt I'll personally develop anything for the PDS slot, and I have a lot of applications that'd get along just fine in a mere megabyte of Ram for now. Also, I want to bring it to work and push for the 14/65 system being the base model for our new in-house sprites/background generation tool. At $1,400, it'd be considerably cheaper than the 486/NeXT Step clone boxes we're considering... With the capabilities inherent, it may end up in our Video translation system, too. (We're the guys who put out Sherlock Holmes, Consulting Detective on a bunch of CD platforms a while back...) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 127 Sun Nov 29, 1992 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 10:16 EST Steve... thanks for the clarification. You are right... sometimes the local BBS is a pirate board. I just hope people recognize this soon enough and don't get involved there. I know that GEnie does cost... but dollar for dollar it is a very good value and you NEVER have to worry about viruses on any of the file you get here because they are all checked before release. That is one of the reasons why new files are not available the momemt they are uploaded. As for technical support... well, Dorothy Brumleve could tell you better than I could how many Atari developers are active here. Dorothy is the new president of the International Association of Atari Developers. TJ... my apologies for the many off topic discussions. You are right and they are straying further afield. To assist you I would be happy to bundle together all the Falcon related library files and messages and email to you. Please advise in email. Soul Manager... you were missing the Vocative case (second last) femina, feminae. Chazz... good luck. I would like to hear more about your intended use of the Falcon at your place of work. This would seem to be the right place and you don't have to right your message in Latin (grin). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 128 Sun Nov 29, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 12:08 EST Bob Brodie- You mentioned in your last online conference that SAM, the Sound Audio Manager, will also work with existing STE's, Mega STE's and TT's. Will you be uploading SAM to GEnie? Other than by purchasing a Falcon, how will we be able to obtain SAM? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 129 Sun Nov 29, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 12:34 EST To anyone who might know the answer: In the most recent issue of Z*Net, there was an informative article about the sound system of the Falcon030. The article stated that the output of the Yamaha PSG could be tied to the audio matrix system for playback, etc. The question that sticks out in my mind is whether the three channels of the PSG are tied together before input to the sound matrix, or, are the 3 channels kept independent (like the Tweety Board). I have a really nice set of stereo sound effects routines for the Tweety Board which could work really well with the DMA sound of the Falcon030 for games and such. The combination of Digitized sound and generated sound would provide well rounded sound effects for such programs. Thanks. ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 130 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.THOMAS12 [JT] at 13:56 EST Bob Brodie, thanks for the informative post. 350,000 sounds like a plan , man :) To all-Down with all pirate BBS'es- may they burn you know where.... J.Brigham- I don't think Atari is even trying to invade the office, Look at the previous posts, PIM-Personal Information Management. and what about the agreement with Kodak? I think they will be able to sell all 350,000 with no problem. It would seem to me that a new system would allow CD-rom, floppies and hard drives in one(or two) boxes and considering the prices on excellent PC keyboards, it should have a KILLER keyboard FROM THE FACTORY- not as an add- on. Also it should be EASY to upgrade from 1 to 4 megs, as a lot of prople will want to do so. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 131 Sun Nov 29, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 16:10 EST JT: I thought that Atari's "PIM" stood for "Personal Integrated Multimedia", and NOT the standard definition "Personal Information Management". Now I'm confused. J.Richter: Wouldn't it be easier for John Q. Public to carry his Two-Piece Falcon030 over to his television set to view his Photo CD's, where he simply unplugs the unit from his monitor and the wall outlet, sets the keyboard on top, and carries it to the family room? This would contrast to the "one piece" design where he has to unplug his Falcon030 from the monitor and wall and CD drive, carry it to the family room, return to unplug his CD drive from the wall, carry IT to the family room, plug it into an octopus because there is only 1 outlet free and the computer is plugged into it, go back because he forgot the SCSI-II cable, plug that into the Falcon030, and then power up. So, as we can see in reality, the one piece design offers no portability advantage because the CD device cannot be installed internally without extensive modifications which will void your warranty. ___________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 132 Sun Nov 29, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 17:00 EST Jerry, Thanks for reading my post...but I didn't intend to get into a contest of "whoever posts longer wins". :) Please keep that in mind. There is often beauty in brevity. I don't know how difficult VGA will be to do on the PC Board. I only know that COMPO is a very capable development house and they have an excellent track record of doing what they say they will do. Remember us? We're the ones that always tell our developers "It can't be done" and then watch as they do so. :) If COMPO says their going to do it, I'm willing to take them at their word. Why have an Atari version of the 486SX board? Are you now trying to suggest that we should compete with another developer? No thanks, we'll pass. For a couple of reasons: 1) Someone else is already pursuing the product and has shown a prototype 2) We have other things more interesting that we would rather have our engineers working on. Remember the higher end Falcon you long to see? Wouldn't YOU rather that they were focusing on that??? I thought so, and so would I. I don't understand why you continue with the "Nobody here wants a one meg machine" argument, when just below your previous message, SOMEONE HERE DID! Of course I know that they'll probably be upgrading it later. But far and away, the leading selling machine that we have produced are the LOWER end machines. World wide. :) And Wayne says AGAIN that he wants the one meg version. Are you telling him to keep his money in his wallet, Jerry??? :) Remember my line about brevity...time to move on! Next!! Curt, WOW...talk about good news/bad news!! I'd suggest that you guys drop a fax to Art Pruzynski ASAP at 408-745-2088. Normally I'd suggest James Grunke to you, but he's on vacation. Fairweather, Don't know the answer to that one yet. It's conceivable that since this product was done via an outside contract with a developer that he might want to sell it himself. T-Bird, Don't know if you have a tower case set up for a PC yet. I do, got a real tank of a case real cheap ages ago and mounted darn near everything in it. Let me clue you, my friend, the wife is NOT capable of picking it up and moving it. Nor does she want to. Got her trained on that one anyhow! The CD player is already in the living room, so she doesn't have to anything other than connect a cable from it to the CPU, which as an addicted player of Dragon's Lair, she has done many, many times while connecting an STE up to our 27" Sony. :) I think that the real scenario is that the cable from the CD player will be laying around waiting for a Falcon to plug into it and the easily carried Atari Falcon030 will look dandy on the coffee table in the living room. And the wife et al will be pleased at how easy it is to set up and use. best regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 133 Sun Nov 29, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:09 EST Mr. Brodie... Despite the fact that we do not see eye to eye, your participation online is a definite good sign and is a great relief to us all. We appreciate the time you spend here. Now, down to the nitty gritty. I do not believe that the CD player will be in the living room waiting for the Falcon030 to connect up to it. Currently, very few CD players are capable of connection to television sets to reproduce video, and fewer of them have the necessary interface ports for connection to a Falcon030. Most people will opt to buy one CD player which will allow them to use the vast number of CD formats in use today. They will want a CD player which plays music, CD-I, High Sierra, CDV, and PhotoCD. Typically, this type of CD player will be a 'dumb' peripheral for a multimedia system, and posess little or no ability to operate independently of it's host computer. The CD player will become part of the computer multimedia system, and remain with the computer at all times. Your scenario suggests a 'dedicated' photoCD which remains connected to the TV while the Falcon030 is in use elsewhere. So, either the photoCD player sits idle waiting for the Falcon030 to be connected to it, or it has it's own reading/displaying hardware built-in which makes connection of the Falcon030 an unnecessary bother. Maybe it could play music CD's as a stand alone. I envision a total multimedia package which includes a CD player capable of reading multiple formats built-in. This system would probably remain attached to the operator's home entertainment system, and would not wander aimlessly about the house like some SNES on steroids. In this case, a nice 2 piece case would really shine. Something of a nice size and construction which would stack perfectly with other home entertainment equipment like VCR's and such. Or a floor mount tower. Anything but an obsolete 1986 case. Americans are more obsessed with outward appearance than you indicate. One final note: I was wandering through Sears on Friday, and came across this machine from Apple. It had great color and sound and I would dare to suggest that your wife would have no trouble picking it up. She would probably find it aesthetically pleasing too. It made me wish I didn't have 1,000's of $$$'s tied up in ST software... It made me sad. :-( ____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 134 Sun Nov 29, 1992 M.JONES52 [Jonesy] at 19:13 EST Likely this is but one more area where I'm anomalous, but I got to thinking on all the keyboard comments. Not having so much experience as others, I'm poorly qualified to express an opinion, but what the .... I learned to type on an old Royal built circa the World War (One, that is), later used a Remington, moved on to a Smith-Corona portable for university, where there were IBM Selectrics and keypunches to play with. Some years later, there was a Teletype (now there was a real dog, yet I've seen a retired Navy signalman durn near make music with it) hooked up to the Altair, the Compucolor, and on to the Atari 800, as well as some time spent with a TRS-80 (several mods), a CBM Pet, Zenith's monster (as well as the Heathkit version). Might as well throw in some time spent with the TI 99/4A, an Apple IIe, an early IBM XT (not to mention the wonderful PC Jr.), and a Tandy Color Computer, finally getting around to some desultory word-mangling on a 520, 1040, 1040e, Mega, and Mega STe (not all mine, mind you!) I don't find the keyboard of the 1040's to be so difficult; in fact I rather like it. But then, for being such a skinny guy, I've got rather a firm touch. (I know it will sound strange, but I find the 'feel' of the keyboard can be varied summat by fiddling with the various settings on the control panel.) Given that I'm so easily amused, however, it's just as likely my powers of discernment and discrimination are stunted if not irremediably warped. (Then too, it could be permanent brain-pan scramble from all them recreational substances ingested back in the Sixties.) As for the one-piece case of the ENTRY LEVEL Falcon, I suspect that won't bother me too much either. I hope to find out quite soon. Please rest assured, though, that I've already got a hacksaw, and my brother-in-law has promised the loan of a soldering gun and says I can rip some RCA sockets out from an old control board he's got laying around. It simply wouldn't do to have any improper ports. Please, do liberally sprinkle the above with smileys. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 135 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.LEBLANC3 [Jeff] at 19:41 EST Hey guys, remember this is an *ENTRY LEVEL* machine aimed at the computer market. Still a damned nice machine for the price. Geesh. :> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- What Chuck said! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 136 Sun Nov 29, 1992 LYRE at 19:54 EST Eeeee, gads! Baaaaaaaaaaad Dot is the IAAD president? ::Faints:: Lyre PS: Actually, Congratulations Dot. I'm sure you'll do fine. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 137 Sun Nov 29, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 20:01 EDT PLEASE.. Take the bashing and the discussion of plural noun forms to the appopriate areas. This topic is getting out of hand. FAIRWEATHER [David]: I already answered that question. We don't have any definite plans as of yet for SAM. When those decisions are made, we will let the people here on GEnie know about them. -- John ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 138 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.PIERCE5 [Rob] at 20:21 EST Bob: Count me in as one that wants a 1 meg machine with no hard drive. If I can afford it, I'll grab Atari's 14 meg board ASAP. If not, I'm going to get a third party RAM board that I can put 4 meg on, and upgrade to 14 later, without having to replace all the chips/SIPPS/SIMMS/whatever on it. I just don't see the point of spending $200-300 on Atari's 4 meg board, then have to dump it for the 14 meg board. Okay, 350,000 units planned for 1993, with half coming to the US. That's 175,000 units. If you figure we have 25 dealers nationwide, that's 583 units per dealer! Wow. Wayne: On almost all multisync monitors (13 and 14 inch models anyway), the high end is around 36 kHz. I think I've seen a high end of 45 kHz on others. Not really sure what its good for, though. I've decided to sell my Panasonic 1391, because I've overspent, and need cash for a car payment. I posted it in the Hardware For Sale topic, so if you're interested, drop me a line! (had to plug it while I had the chance!) Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 139 Sun Nov 29, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 20:28 EST hmmm... The TT touch kit.. that'l really bring in the NEW user! Just what he wants to do.. rip apart his NEW $1200 system and fix something ATARI sc___ed up!!! and I have used "Touch kits" NO way do they feel anywhere as good as my Mega4... Have you typed on even the CHEAPEST under $1000 NEW mac? They have a very nice touch indeed!! remember, perceived quality is half the battle... ThunderBIRD.. Ofcourse I would prefer the separate keyboard.. as would most everyone I talk to... Its just.. if they are going two make an all-in-one design.. at least make it comparable to the equally priced Mac.. It makes me sad to.. Just a few more dollars spent on appearance and keyboard could have translated into many.. many more DOLLARS EARNED for ATARI.. Why OH Why do they feel people only shop on price ALONE? I mean, if your gonna spend over $1000 anyway.. most people will buy the system that gives them the MOST quality feedback!! Just click on the NEW/OLD ATARI mouse.. Then click on the MAC mouse! 9 out of 10 people will choose the MAC mouse.. EVERYTIME! this is just one example.. Bob Brodie.. Thanks.. I will be EXCITED if they really PULL-OFF the VGA color 486SX!! especially if it runs at 32MHZ.. (dreaming)... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 140 Sun Nov 29, 1992 DOUG.W [ICD RT] at 20:59 EST As an example of the high-end "affordable" monitor, I am using a Mag MX15F which is a 15" flat-screen monitor. It has the following specs: Picture tube: 15 inch dark tinted, non-clare etched FST with Invar shadow mask, 0.28 mm fine dot pitch Resolution: 1280 x 1024 addressable 1024 x 768 physical Display Colors: Unlimited Scanning Freq.: Vertical: 50 Hz to 120 Hz Horizontal: 30 KHz to 68 KHz Display Area: 260 mm (W) x 195 mm (H) typical Video Bandwidth: 100 MHz min. at 3dB Very good specs and very good picture in actual use. The best part is it can be found for under $600 through many mail-order places. --Doug ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 141 Sun Nov 29, 1992 Z-NET at 21:01 EST Dear Mr. Bird (or may I call you "Thun"?) The Z*Net reprint of the AtariUser article did not say that the Yamaha three vocie output was tied into the audio matrix. I wrote it... and I think that it is NOT. The three voice sound/old style/Yamaha sound is still right where it was, and is is still tied together, and not thru the new section. I think. I'll continue to try to find out more. John Nagy ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 142 Sun Nov 29, 1992 M.EVERHART2 [MIDIMIKE] at 21:56 EST If the Falcon comes with a 68030 running at 16mHz, why can't one just plug in a faster 68030 to accelerate it? (Ignoring for the moment the 16 vs 32 bit controversy). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 143 Sun Nov 29, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 22:17 EST Yeah, but if he caught her picking up an Apple, I shudder to think. :-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 144 Sun Nov 29, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 22:30 EST I just thought of something. Since the Falcon PDS slot is a 68000 compatible slot, would it be possible to make a cable that would connect the PDS slot to the cards made for the Mega Bus? Maybe just an update to software or something? Just cureious. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 145 Sun Nov 29, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:43 EST Fairweather: Rumor (and rumor only) has it that only an updated version of TOS has the hooks in it necessary to use the System Audio Manager on anything other than a Falcon030. Midimike: The crystal and circuitry necessary to provide the 68030 with it's clock frequency (16Mhz) in the Falcon030 is soldered to the motherboard. If it is anything like the ST in design, virtually every other operation in the machine is somehow or another geared up to run at 16Mhz ONLY. So, putting in a 32 MHz 68030 will net you only a 32MHz chip running at 16MHz, and an amount of cash out of your pocket. If you uproot the crystal and replace it with a faster one, you will most likely get a machine that no longer operates as you expect it to, if it operates in any way at all. It is really a job for Jim Allen to make everything work together. John Nagy: Here is what has me confused: "The codec's ADC can be connected to the mic input or to the Yamaha PSG output. (Independent left and right channel control there.)" and: "At system bootup I believe the ADC gets both channels from the PSG, and everything else is bypassed." It certainly implies that the PSG is capable of output to the new audio system, and to a lesser extent implies that the output of the PSG has 2 channels (left and right). It is possible that it means that the ADC has 2 channels and the one output of the PSG (all 3 channels tied together) goes to both. Thanks for looking into it, at any rate. J.Richter: I just think that Atari's Market Research company really dropped the ball when they recommended that they make a throwback case design because it would be easier to lug around the house. I really don't see how they could say this if they actually used one. The 1040 is not easy to move around, and because of port locations and drive location and sheer volume, it is hard to find room for it most of the time. At least you can put a monitor on top of a clunky PC. Of course as we can see from the example set by the Nofundo Game Toy, that proper advertising and marketing can convince the masses that _anything_ is acceptable, and desireable... The key words being "advertising" and "marketing". ___________________________ \hunderbird 'cause I really _want_ them to do well again. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 146 Sun Nov 29, 1992 MIKE.KELLER [ST Aladdin] at 23:00 EDT >The CD player will become part of the computer multimedia system, and >remain with the computer at all times. Your scenario suggests a >'dedicated' Wrong. The CD player will sit where the CD, VCR and Laserdisc gear generally sit: in the same room with the TV (living room, family room, den, kitchen?). The Falcon, being a rather discreet looking piece of gear, can easily sit in the same room, where it can be used with the TV/CD or by itself with its own monitor. It's only when it starts to look like a computing monster that it will become unwelcome in the living quarters. mike.k ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 147 Sun Nov 29, 1992 EXPLORER.1 [ Ron ] at 23:06 EST J.RICHTER, the Best TT Touch kit replaces the silicon pads on a ST keyboard with the same pads as used in the TT, the feel is identical, period. Thunderbird, the PSG sound can optionaly be routed through the same stereo ADC used for the mic inputs. I suspect the PSG outputs are still tied together but am not sure. The output of the ADC plays into the mux. I guess one of the PSG channels at a time could be played and then mixed back together using the DSP :-) Ron @ Atari Explorer ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 148 Mon Nov 30, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:00 EST Wayne, YES, you could make an adapter that allowed MegaST addon boards to be plugged in. I don't know what OS ramifications there would be, the driver for a video card might need to be "tweaked" to work correctly with the new Falcon TOS. Of course you'd have to move the whole mess into a tower case to make room, but it'd be beat ;-) You could also easily make a 68000 CPU board for the PDS...kind of a compatibility enhancement ;-) Depending of course if the OS still can run on a 68000 chip directly. I'm sure 3rd parties will do a SIMM board for the Falcon's ram, which allows either 4 256Kx8 SIMMs, or 4 1Megx8 SIMMs, or 4 4Megx8 SIMMs to be used, simply by plugging them in. It's so simple in fact that I may put the schematic and dimensions of it up here on GEnie so anyone with the desire can go into Falcon ram board production....interested? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 149 Mon Nov 30, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:49 EST R.WATSON15 - The Falcon030 IS the replacement for the MSTE. BOB-BRODIE - I still have to point out that saying the Falcon030 has a 32-bit data/32-bit address bus (as it is listed in at least one of the announcements AS WELL AS in a Falcon030 brochure) is quite misleading. I was hoping someone from Atari would AT LEAST come out and say, "Whoops! We made a mistake there. Sorry!" However, ever since the truth about bus sizes was found out, people from Atari have been dancing around the issue saying that what was announced was not entirely untrue looking at it from a certain point of view. My brother just bought a Mac IIsi 5/80 system today and I'm jealous. I want my Falcon! Speaking of that, while we were at CompUSA today, they had announcements for 'classes' on "how to buy a computer" there, which seems rather shadey to me. They were also clearancing all their Portfolio stuff (as I've seen at most other computer stores here that carried it such as Computerland), which was somewhat disturbing that even THAT Atari product seems to be dying. Anyone need a Portfolio PC Card Drive for $20? I don't know if I can stress it enough, but Atari NEEDS a large outlet to have the Falcon computers available through, otherwise there's NO real hope for a national campaign and, therefore, little chance for 'success.' Perhaps Atari U.S. needs its own Bob Gleadow to actively (and successfully) pursue such things??? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 150 Mon Nov 30, 1992 M.ALLEN14 [Mike Allen] at 02:29 EST Steve, I hope you're wrong. The F030 is a much more logical replacement for the STe than the MSTe. Atari seems to think that the F030 will cut into the MSTe sales sufficiently to drop the line. I think (hope?) that they are wrong. Now if Atari comes out with an advanced F030 (separate keyboard, VME slots, etc) that would be the model to replace the MSTe. I, for one, would not replace my MSTe with a F030. I like the separate keyboard and I don't like having gadzillions of cables hanging out of what is, in effect, my keyboard (the one piece case). I think that the F030 will attract the STe type buyers. I suspect that the MSTe type buyers will wait. Mike Allen ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 151 Mon Nov 30, 1992 K.DRAKE [SirFransis] at 02:41 EST Bob, I'm Agreein' Wit Ya. I wanted a 1 meg version to start out with but, from what I've learned here, I'd be better off getting the 4/65 version. After all, if I wanted a 1 meg Falcon, I'd get a Jaguar! ]->... drool! Still Sailing, Sir Fransis ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 152 Mon Nov 30, 1992 A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 03:43 EST Thanks, Tbird! Nice to see graphically why my TT runs so fast when using TT ram. Al ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 153 Mon Nov 30, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 05:25 EST Steve, The Falcon may be the replacement for the STE/MSTE but, it will not completely replace the MSTE until they have a seperate keyboard version. I see a MSTE replacement as having a minimum of a faster 030 and seperate keyboard. Hopefully 2.88 meg support could also be added and a standard floppy faceplate. Mike, you are right. I would rather wait for the seperate keyboard model. Even if all Atari done was put the current version of the Falcon in a seperate keyboard/case design, I would snatch it up real fast like. Of course, I would like to see the above added. I think (not knowing much about hardware design) that most of the above could be done without motherboard redesign. I am still debating on this Falcon as I would like to have one for software developement to insure compatability and to write stuff to take advantage of the features. I will probably wait and see what they do though. The MSTE has done gotten me spoiled. I like the seperate keyboard and the keyboard is much nicer. I had the 1040 ST for 6 years and Atari had not come out with something that made me want to upgrade until I saw the MSTE. That was about 6 months ago. Now they announce the Falcon. ARGH!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 154 Mon Nov 30, 1992 ATARI.BENLUX [W. Kilwinger] at 05:41 EST Thunderbird: TT's ST-RAM IS 32 bit, it's slower than TT RAM because it is used by the DMA's (ACSI, SCSI, SOUND, SERIAL), the video logic (which does 64-bit access) and the 68030 can't use burst fill in ST RAM. (Burst fill is a technique for filling the CPU cache in less cycles than it would take normally to load 256 bytes) J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH]: Good explanation about Falcon/TT Memory !! BOB-BRODIE: >First, the PC board is not our product, it is a product of COMPO, a German >based developer. Bob, don't steel my developer . Theo Breuers (owner of Compo) lives in Holland and does have 2 offices in Holland (The Netherlands). But yes, you are right, most of his development teams work in Germany. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 155 Mon Nov 30, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:15 EST Mike K. > Wrong. The CD player will sit where the CD, VCR and Laserdisc > gear generally sit: in the same room with the TV (living room, > family room, den, kitchen?). The Falcon, being a rather discreet > looking piece of gear, can easily sit in the same room, where > it can be used with the TV/CD or by itself with its own monitor. > It's only when it starts to look like a computing monster that > it will become unwelcome in the living quarters. Incorrect. Your scenario assumes that there are CD players out there which fit into home entertainment systems which are capable of interfacing with the Falcon030. You may find a Laserdisc player or ultra-high end CD player with an RS-232 or some other standard interface port on it, but very few people have a CD player connected to their home entertainment system which has the SCSI port on it required to connect to a Falcon030 in any meaningful way. You'll have to look REALLY hard to even find a CD player with a SCSI port on it which isn't designed to integrate to a COMPUTER system. A SCSI port is required in order to transfer the enormous amounts of data required for displaying PhotoCD's. SCSI cables should be kept as short as possible by nature. Much shorter than the average distance between the Entertainment Center and the Coffee Table in the average American household. Your (and Atari's) vision of the Falcon030 fitting so nicely into the typical entertainment center would be much better served by a two-piece with internal CD player. It would be styled and sized to stack well with VCR's and Laserdisc players, and have a plethora of RCA style input and output jacks for video and audio. It would ALSO have an S-VHS style connector for connection to televisions. The keyboard would be a separate unit with a long cord (or no cord at all), and would dock with the base when not in use. Of course it would be of contemporary styling too. While this may not be the ideal design to fit MY needs, it IS the ideal design for the use that Atari claims they designed the 1040 cased Falcon030 for. I'm sorry to have to say this, but their arguments for the case, keyboard, CPU bus, and PDS size come across more as excuses than as reasons. To claim that they really meant the video bus was 32/32 and that _everyone else_ misunderstood, instead of a) admitting their mistake, or b) admitting they were misleading us, is really stretching their believeability. My ideal Falcon is a tower case with bays for other drives, etc. Maybe they'll make it, maybe they won't. It would be nice if they told us the 'real' reason they chose the 1040 case, instead of those 'Tommy Flineagan' type reasons. I cannot stress strongly enough the fact that people do not own CD players which will connect up to the Falcon030 like that, and that with the jumble of addons dangling off the backside of the Falcon030 enabling it to do 'easy titling and video effects', the Falcon will be staying put, and will not need to move around. Let me ask you this: how many people move their VCR around the house? Sure, some small number people likely do this, but MOST people leave it hooked up in one location. Just the bother of disconnecting and reconnecting the things is enough to discourage most people from attempting a move. Atari's vision of the Falcon030 becoming another consumer appliance of this type simply requires a specialized case design. In this situation, the 1040 case has no place. Saying the 1040 case was chosen intentionally for this purpose, makes even less sense. ___________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 156 Mon Nov 30, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 19:22 EST D.ENGEL- You've made it clear that the Falcon030 is NOT the machine for you. Plenty of others are quite happy with it just the way it is. Please stop beating a dead horse. For your own sake, can't you find something more constructive to do with your time- like finding a machine that suits you? Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but enough already. I'm (and I'm sure many others) tired of being beat over the head with your 'opinions' here constantly. It's GOT mini-jacks, the PDS has 68000 signals, there is no internal PhotoCD player, it's in a 1040 case, the BUS is 16 bit, Genlocking requires more hardware, Direct to disk recording of all 8 chanels requires a box, and so on and so on. The Falcon030 IS what it IS- an ENTRY level multimedia computer. It's not aimed at current owners, nor is it a replacement for the TT. If you don't like the price or features- say so. Once will be enough, thanks. All the bellyacheing in the world isn't going to change it's features to what YOU want, give it a rest. You're scaring the kids. ;-) Start a topic in CAT 18: IF I WERE BUILDING THE FALCON I'D: -Tom McComb {7:20 pm} Monday, November 30, 1992 ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 157 Mon Nov 30, 1992 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 20:17 EST FAIRWEATHER [David] >If you guys keep it up, the same thing will happen to the Falcon >that happened to the ST Book. Mark my words. *** FOR THE HUMOUR IMPAIRED - THIS MESSAGE CONTAINS SOME SATIRE AND SOME TRUTH. YOU DECIDE WHICH IS WHICH *** Really? Do you promise? Can I be sure it's true? 'Cause this Falcon thing is sounding more and more like Bacon (ie a real pig) everyday.. Slower than promised (16-bit data bus, NOT 32..), and Here slower than promised (Maybe in January if we say pretty please, not MID- OCTOBER)!! Actually, I think I've found the DEEPER meaning behind Atari's naming of their new machine... We all know how us computer geeks (mumble mumble joke mumble mumble) love acronyms and contractions.. Well, the Falcon030 is NOT named after a bird. It's just the short form of Fall-Con 030. After all, can anyone truly say it was anything more than Atari returning to their old ways of announcing vapourware? Hmm... Back then Atari only released 40% of announced products, and their released products kicked major butt! Maybe we're going back to the old ways and it's a turn for the better :-) Anyone heard anything about Stair Raiders 30 yet? Mattias ps. Since this message is about a week old, if things have radically changed, forgive me.. OTOH, I don't think I have much to worry about... That Mac II VX is looking better and better all the time, although that price still gives me fits :-( ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 158 Mon Nov 30, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 21:19 EST Thunderbird -----------> It is my understanding that the PSG feeds into the ADC and then is output as digital. The ADC has two possible inputs, the PSG and the MIC L/R. I'm not sure how the PSG divides it's three outputs into the two ADC inputs. Maybe someone else at ATARI has that answer. --------------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 159 Mon Nov 30, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 22:28 EST RON.. Still not something NEW buyers are gonna wana do!! I might try the HACK but the average user WON'T.. although its nice to know I can do it! .. How much is this kit? I can buy a nice PC keyboard for under $60 .. sheesh.. pulling prying... poping on a BRAND NEW SYSTEM! Bird, We ALL know what the REAL reasons were.. now don't we? Engel, When you have walked down the path of experience.. as some of us have with ATARI, we want ONLY the BEST for ATARI and its users. All entry level Multi- Media systems I have seen HAVE built-in CD ROM players! and separate keyboards.. FOR A REASON!! can you guess what that reason is?. There are NO first time users on this board.. as far as I know. Many of us have put YEARS of devotion and work into making ATARI shine as BRIGHT as we can to our friends and fellow workers.. I think by now we have EARNED the right for a little positive critic of the computer we love! I mean... If you see your small child heading towards a burning hot stove, what are you gonna do.. Many of us were willing to for-go a few not-so-nifties .. like 1040 case.. you know, because of the AWSOMENESS of having a REAL 32bit Atari system with REAL 32bit expandability!.. but after the TRUTH came out... well.. and the MUSHY keyboard to boot.. well.. I am sorry, we just CAN'T help but be a little embarassed and let down! .. $1300 is $1300.. and there is not enough BEEF in the Burger... FOR NOW that is....... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 160 Mon Nov 30, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:46 EST Tom: I'm truly sorry that you do not agree with what I have to say. However, I must point out that I do not hold a gun to your head and MAKE you read my words. According to the rules of the system, I have every right as you do to post here, provided I follow proper public manners, and keep my posts germaine to the topic at hand. I could be spouting the holy scriptures (or worse, in latin) at you 24 hours a day 7 days a week, provided that I wanted to spend the money, and related them to the topic. ;-) Thankfully, I don't and won't. I myself am tired of getting beat over the head with the fact that there must be something WRONG with ME because I want a computer that stands on EQUAL GROUND with the COMPETITION. I'm tired of being told one thing and then find out the opposite is fact. I'm tired of having to pull teeth to get the truth revealed. I'm tired of having to come across as the bad guy because I don't look at Atari through rose colored glasses. I'm tired of having every word I post scrutinized and challenged because I do not subscribe to the notion that the Falcon030 is going to set the computing world on it's ear. I'm tired of having everything I say challenged by people who deny the fact as feverishly as if I had shown them photos of their spouse being unfaithful. The Falcon030 literally seems to have been designed by 10 people, each one pushing and clawing and manipulating for an ultimate 'entry-level' machine targeted at their specific niche market. A sort of "Jack of all trades, master of none." entry level machine. A machine which tries to be all things to all people, but winds up riddled with shortcomings and broken promises. Too many chefs spoiled the soup. Look at how they state that the bus was designed 16/24 ON PURPOSE so that the _loyal users_ can run their existing software on one hand, and on the other hand say that the machine is intended for a TOTALLY NEW market which has different priorities for the case, etc. I wouldn't care that the Falcon030 was a putt-putt and had a 16 bit PDS, _IF_ it had built-in Genlocking (as implied). I wouldn't care that the Falcon030 has mediocre graphics _IF_ it had a 32 bit CPU bus (as implied). I wouldn't care that the Falcon030 is a little outdated in graphics and speed _IF_ it could record 8 channel CD quality sound without addon boxes (as implied). If it actually DOES one thing it was proclaimed to do, then I will be satisfied. BUT, since it didn't even SHIP when promised, I can't even use one to find something I still LIKE about it. How do you expect me to find anything good in something which has been such a disappointment? Simply put, it is not the miracle machine we were TOLD it was. It practically needs an addon box for each of practically ANY of the tasks it was announced to be capable of. PLEASE don't read my posts as complaints. These are not complaints. If you MUST read an air of negativity into them, then interpret it as constructive criticism. If that is as close to my true intentions as you can get, then fine. To truly understand my motivations, you must read my posts in simple monotonal irony. If Atari claimed they weren't going to ship in the U.S. because of something I say, then it would only mean that they know who's right. ________________________________ \hunderbird 'cause there's still a chance to save the Falcon040 from a similar fate. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 161 Mon Nov 30, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:14 EST J.Richter: I agree with you. It doesn't make me feel very good about my years of devotion (count 'em 15 years) to be lied to, and then abused for pointing out the lies. But it has to be done. Many people would have me "Go find another system!", but, alas, they obviously are far more fickle than I. Would they divorce their wife because she lost her job? Would they ignore a friend who developed a drinking problem? Would they turn away a relative who had a nervous breakdown? Obviously THEY haven't grown up ATARI!!! Atari has influenced my entire life in one way or another. I've defended Atari's honor more times than I can count, and enjoyed Atari products an equal number of times. I still recall Atari as the greatest company of all time. Only in recent years have they developed these personality problems. They are tough problems, and painful ones. I believe they can be overcome. Tough problems require tough treatment. However, NOBODY can overcome a problem until they admit that they have one. Sometimes you have to hurt your loved ones in order to help them. Perhaps someday, our efforts will be recognised for what they are. But first, we have to get past the denial stage... and it looks like a long and rocky road to recovery. __________________________ /hunderbird 'cause I've read the book "ZAP! The rise and fall of Atari". ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 162 Mon Nov 30, 1992 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 23:53 EST Steve - Are you sure on the IIvx having a 16-bit bus? I've been following this machine pretty closely, and it seems like it DOES have a true 32-bit bus.. Wayne W. - Sure, it's an STe replacement, but at TT prices (almost!) Mattias ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 163 Tue Dec 01, 1992 T.MCCOMB [=Tom=] at 00:07 EST Then do it in a Falcon040 topic. I give up. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 164 Tue Dec 01, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 00:23 EST The MacIIvx has a 32bit BUS, but it runs at a 16Mhz clock rate. The CPU and cache operate at 32Mhz, the rest is 16Mhz. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 165 Tue Dec 01, 1992 B.AEIN [B Man] at 00:57 EST Any one interested: ST FORMAT has an article in their Dec issue about the Falcon 040! They say "It will almost certainly be released in the third quarter of 1993 in a brand new PC-looking case and is likely to cost around 1000 (pounds)" They say it will be fully compatible with Falcon 030 software, but says nothing about ST software support. "32MHz 32-bit chip" They also mention a CD-Falcon (built in CD) ST FORMAT reports that the direct to disk software from D2D is almost complete and will cost 300 pounds. Is this true??? I was under the impression that the F030 would come with D2D, I sure hope that SAM is not the direct to disk program promised to be included! ATARI if a F030 is released and about 6-12 months later a bundled F030 with some kind of software is released, Please make sure the people who have already bought F030's get the bundle. Dpaint 5 is said to be coming from EA, that would make for great bundling I hope the Jag is far more advanced than the F030, just my Opinion Bman ----------- Tuesday December 01, 1992 ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 166 Tue Dec 01, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 01:20 EST T-Bird, I have to agree with Tom on this one. I don't know if beating a dead horse is a good way of expressing it though.:-) Your last couple of messages belong in the Future Falon topic, Cat 14, Topic 14. This topic is for discussing the currently non-acceptable Falcon and the way Atari mislead it's users on the release, again. I read both topics so it won't matter to me but it seems like your making suggestions for something thats pretty much finished or should be by now. Atari, Welp, where are they? I've got the money and Christmas as an excuse!:-) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 167 Tue Dec 01, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:08 EST Speaking of the Yamaha PSG in the Falcon... Is it PAINFULLY LOUD compared to the digital audio output as it is on the STE/TT machines? And speaking of THAT, is it possible to lower the output level of the PSG through software (like a TSR program that would reduce the PSG's output levels to half what they would normally be)? Also, it it possible on the Falcon to route the PSG entirely to the internal speaker while routing the digital audio entirely to the stereo outputs? J.THOMAS12 - It's "Personal Integrated Media." "Personal Information Manager" is what the Portfolio-like machines are, like the Casio B.O.S.S. and such. Some people, myself included, wish Atari would avoid the PIM acronym in reference to the Falcon machines because of this. I would like to hook up an Apple Extended Keyboard to my computer since that's the best keyboard I've EVER felt. If someone produced a replacement keyboard (one that actually replaces the keyboard inside) for the 520/1040ST(E) and Falcon030 computers, how many people would buy it and how much would people be willing to spend on it? And I's asking this SERIOUSLY (as though it's a viable prospect, hint hint! ). J.PIERCE5 - You mean 583 units per dealer PER MONTH (you left that part off). J.RICHTER - Since Windows (and OS/2, I believe) software isn't supposed to access video hardware directly, all you really need is a Windows driver for the Falcon's video hardware. DOS programs are another matter, though. M.EVERHART2 - There's more hardware involved in accelerating a machine than just popping in a faster-rated processor. If you simply replaced the 16MHz- rated 68030 with a 32MHz-rated 68030, you'd still only have a 16MHz machine. EXPLORER.1 - Do you REALLY mean 100% identical to the feeling of a TT keyboard? I thought even the keys and such were a little different than the ST keyboard? I don't really remember since I only saw a Mega STE once due to nobody selling any here in Atlanta, but I seem to recall the keyboard seeming more different that the ST's than just the tactile feedback. The more I mess around with my brother's new Mac IIsi, the more I kinda like the idea of getting a Mac myself. I have all these Mac product catalogs to leaf through and I feel like I'm dreaming. Atari better get some Falcon machines out for me to oggle (maybe even a seperate keyboard 030-based model is needed to REALLY impress me) and some nationwide dealer support (are there ANY chains that at least carry Atari software?) before I can't stand being stuck with my measly STE any longer (and no, I won't settle for a TT or any expansion boards!). ___________________ 'cause I can't stand all of \hunderbird's lame taglines! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 168 Tue Dec 01, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:10 EST >Would they divorce their wife... ignore a friend... turn away a relative.... No, Thunderbird. But obviously you would berate them, belittle them, and attempt to make others lose respect for them, when all the while saying that you were offering "constructive" criticism. Given the choice, any psychology freshman will tell you that separation is preferable to long-term abuse. And abuse is what we've been hearing from you for quite some time now. Everyone should note that the Atari that existed before 1985 (Atari Inc.) is not the same Atari that we all talk about in this RT (Atari Corporation). Atari Corp. is not responsible for Atari Inc.'s fumbling the ball with the 8- bits (classrooms could have been filled with Atari 800's instead of Apple IIe's), or their collapse of the video game market. So when people talk about being with Atari 15 years, keep in mind that they have actually dealt with two separate managerial entities. Note: The December issue of Computer Shopper makes two references to Atari. One is in a discussion of input devices, where Atari is credited with designing the digital joystick. The other is in a discussion of clones, where the author tries to assure his readers that "being stuck with an existing 386 is [not] like being stuck with an Apple II or Atari 800" (448). Too bad they couldn't at least have brought up the Falcon... But on the other hand, I couldn't find a reference to Commodore at all. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 169 Tue Dec 01, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 06:19 EST To whom it may concern: If you honestly feel that the Falcon030 is faultless and that Atari has treated you with the honesty and respect that you as a loyal fan of X years deserve, and that myself and others are full of hot air when we assert the contrary, you have 2 choices: 1) STOP challenging every statement made, forcing a rebuttal from us. 2) Type IGN PERM and don't let the door hit you on the way out. _______________________ \hunderbird 'cause nobody can prove me wrong so they just attack my attitude. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 170 Tue Dec 01, 1992 M.DRYSDALE [Drys] at 06:45 EST >Okay, 350,000 units planned for 1993, with half coming to the US. That's >175,000 units. If you figure we have 25 dealers nationwide, that's 583 >units per dealer! Send me my 583 Falcons NOW!!! Mike, TEAM COMPUTERS now POWER Computers ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 171 Tue Dec 01, 1992 FIFTHCRUSADE at 08:04 EST There are a lot more than 25 Atari dealers nationwide. There are more than 3 here in Mpls/St Paul. Of course all but 1 are music stores, but they still count. Ben White ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 172 Tue Dec 01, 1992 S.WINICK at 10:55 EST Thunderbird, I think we have two extremes here --- Typical PC-clone manufacturers add a CD- ROM to their systems and call it a multi-media machine. Atari actually designs a machine with the potential to truly be a multi-media machine, but leaves off all the peripherals, or place to put them, in order to make it happen. Atari's approach, however, has laid the groundwork for a new generation of systems. I'm confident that the 1040-style Falcon is the first in that series, not the last. If this current design doesn't suit your needs, I'm sure they'll be future models which will. Remember Atari's early 400 machine? It laid the groundwork for the 800 and later models which built on the new technology. The Falcon 030 is clearly aimed at offering a user-friendly system for the masses -- many of whom are completely computer illiterate. Perhaps Atari's idea is to try to repeat the magic of their early machines, which also didn't offer internal expansion capabilities, but were definitely easy to add peripherals to. Those early machines attracted a lot of attention -- and developers and buyers. Times are considerably different now, however. It'll take more than merely a simple looking box with promises of third party add-ons to attract todays computer shopper. Packaging is important, as is visibility, advertising, service and support. Only time will tell whether or not Atari will be willing and able to implement the type of comprehensive marketing program to go along with the new products that will be necessary for success. The 1040-style Falcon030 is already in production. That model is a given. It's time to accept it for what it is, and provide Atari with feedback as to what we would like to see in future models. I think all the points you've made have been reiterated to the point that everyone is well aware of your criticisms and concerns. But now its time to move on. If Atari hasn't understood your concerns by now, they never will. I think we all hope they have. Beating this into the ground unfortunately gives many the impression that you're no longer offering constructive criticism, but merely engaging in bashing; I don't believe that is really your intention. Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 173 Tue Dec 01, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:58 EST Sheldon: My memory is a little foggy, but I recall the 400 and 800 came out at the same time. Perhaps Atari sould not have put all their eggs into the low end system with the Falcon030. It would serve them better to offer a whole line, rather than just the small end. My real point is that we have seen Atari do some really goofy things in the past years, yet they won't even admit that they have ever made a mistake. Even the Forbes article they ignore. Sort of like tripping and falling on your face into a sewer and getting up saying "I meant to do that.". Seems to be the way they work. It would give thousands of people a _lot_ more confidence in them if someone of stature within the company would say "We admit that we have some managerial problems. Please bear with us while we learn to sort things out.". Instead we get lame excuses, and statements of confidence which sound more and more like Bud Bundy proclaiming his sexual prowess. Atari seems to deny any wrong ever, and makes matters worse when it does so. Even the U.S. Government has enough pride to admit error. I wonder which one has more beaurocratic gridlock? Admitting you have a problem is the first step to fixing it. My sarcasm is not rooted in malice. It comes out of sheer frustration. I think you understand this, and for that I thank you. ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 174 Tue Dec 01, 1992 C.KLIMUSHYN [-Chuck-] at 19:57 EST Hey Drys, How bout posting directions on how to get to your new pad (use the old location of your old store as a starting point, be gentle I'm a west sider don't ya know). I'll look for the answer over in the dealer's topic. Best Regards, -Chuck- ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 175 Tue Dec 01, 1992 M.EVERHART2 [MIDIMIKE] at 20:25 EST Rob - not to quibble, but 175000 units/year with half going to US dealers is 87500 units. With 25 dealers that would be 3500 each, not the 583 you indicated. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 176 Tue Dec 01, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 21:05 EST Good deal Jim!! Put up the schematic. Individual dealers could put out in hose Falcon RAM boards and (hopefully) pass the savings on to the consumer...... Thunderbird: Do the CD players that Kodak sells have a SCSI port? I would think that Kodak would like to encourage the average home user to buy THIER Photo CD players for use with a Falcon. ---------> Sam ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 177 Tue Dec 01, 1992 M.HEMBRUCH [Mattias] at 21:45 EST D.Engel - I couldn't agree with you more. I signed on to GEnie hoping to find out more about the 'exciting' new Fall-Con. All I get is disappointment. I could have gotten 98% of the info I've gotten here from Usenet for free this term.. I was glad to find the DBMS RT though - a lot of help from those guys.. Back to Topic: Ok, the DSP is NEAT. SO WHAT!! Big Deal. Who's got a killer app depending on the DSP? I'm not totally up on Mac graphics modes, but I'll bet a IIsi w/ a proper graphics card (sure - it'll cost more, but I can buy it TODAY) will run circles around a Fall-Con for most things. I knew something wasn't agreeing there. You hit it on the head w/ the 16/24 bit address bus for 'existing' users, and then claiming the machine wasn't designed for existing users.. By placing all their bets on the Fall-Con, they'll ensure one thing: either they do well, and I'll gladly eat my words, or they'll die and we won't keep hoping things will turn around - we'll just stop buying Atari. Mattias ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 178 Tue Dec 01, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:17 EST SAM: I have a brochure for the Kodak Photo CD unit. It mentions nothing about connection to any computer at all with any port. It's not a very big brochure, so it's probably not complete. The Kodak player displays the photos on your Television by itself. Being dedicated to one purpose, it probably displays in true 24 bit color with better resolution than most computers, making a computer redundant for mere viewing purposes. I don't see how a 'CD photo only' unit will succeed in the market. It will probably go by way of the Kodak Disk Camera. I do feel _very_ strongly that the PhotoCD _format_ will become an industry standard, and will reach very high levels of popularity. I am predicting that the Kodak _player_ won't do well, that is all. I wish I had better specs for you. Sorry. I'll keep my eyes open. Mattias: Check out the discussion in CAT 18 TOPIC 20 for the _real_ lowdown on this situation ;-) If you promise not to laugh, that is... ____________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 179 Tue Dec 01, 1992 J.ALLEN27 [FAST TECH] at 23:24 EST I talked to a salesman at Lechmere, and the Kodak CD machine isn't selling much at all yet. But who knows. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 180 Wed Dec 02, 1992 TOWNS [John@Atari] at 00:04 EST You don't need a Photo CD player from Kodak to view Photo CD's. All you need is a CDROM player and some driver software. That software is what we were showing at COMDEX> -- John Townsend, Atari Corp. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 181 Wed Dec 02, 1992 C.FLUEGEL [Curt] at 00:56 EST Well........... Pro Sound News (for those non-audio folks, its a free trade magazine sent to audio and vidio studio owners) did a special pullout section this month on Atari computers including a review on the Falcon 030. Also, Keyboard magazine (January) issue has a review on the Falcon 030. And as I mentioned before Guitar Center (and to answer someones question, yes I work there, in Keyboards&Computers-- call me and day but Monday) has an ad for the Falcon. They all say great things. It will sell, at one meg even... Curt p.s. can I get flyers for Guitar Center? Who do I call? p.s. GC 612-631-9424 612-631-9479(fax) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 182 Wed Dec 02, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 01:19 EST M.ALLEN14 - The reasoning is that the STE is a $300-$350 machine, which Atari can't offer the F030 for that low of a price. Since the F030 and MSTE are very close in price, it depends on whether there's still enough demand for MSTE's after the F030 becomes available for Atari to keep making them. That was MY understanding, anyway. M.HEMBRUCH - That's what I was told as an explanation for why the 25MHz IIci is still faster in some respects than the 32MHz IIvx. Even while reading specs for all the Mac systems, they have some listed as having "32-bit architecture" and the IIvx didn't say that. J.ALLEN27 - Oh, so it's sorta like the TT? B.AEIN - My understanding is that the BUNDLED D2D is a two-channel version and that D2D Systems (or whatever the company's named) would be SELLING a 4-8 channel version. It's kinda like you get a fully working, though limited version of it. After seeing the surface-mounted 68030 in my brother's Mac IIsi, I can see how tricky it would be to do any upgrades to such a thing. Luckily, for my brother, there are real expansion slots inside. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 183 Wed Dec 02, 1992 CONNOR [Connor] at 01:36 EST I've heard a lot of complaints about the 1040 case floating around, about people wanting a more powerful Falcon, etc. I've made some of those complaints myself, and about other things. But there's one thing I keep thinking. This Falcon is the first in a line of at least two. I'd rather that any mistakes/unforseen flaws, etc turn up on the first model that is a low end machine than on a first model that is a high end machine. I'm using an old 520 STfm that I bought in '88, and it works. It's not great and can't do everything I want it to do, but it gets the job done. I can't afford a high end machine at the moment, so my choices are to buy a low end from Atari (Falcon 030) or move to Mac or IBM. I don't like Macs or IBMs, so there isn't much choice. I have nothing against the Amiga, but I prefer the way my Atari works. I'll wait a bit longer than originally told for the computer I want, sure I'll grumble about it, but I'll wait. I'll buy a 1040 case Falcon 030 with 45 megs and a hard drive, no problems. Then when I want a better machine and can afford it in a year or three I'll move up to an 040 hopefully. D D D D D D D D D D(hopefully). I'll still use the 030, it fits in my briefcase and can get lugged around to conventions, etc. Great for showing off the low end of the Atari line, and promoting GEnie and the Canada RT. Just my two cents worth on the issue. I'm looking at this from my point of view, something to tide me over until the line is more or less perfected and the design I really want is out. ... Connor ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 184 Wed Dec 02, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 05:12 EST MidiMike, Bob said that they were planning on 175000 for the US (half of 350000). ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 185 Wed Dec 02, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 07:18 EST T'Bird: What Tom said: enough already. We all know you aren't happy. We all suspect you never will be. I would like to hear others' opinions and info. ---------- No one makes us read your words, but short of ignoring the entire topic and losing everyone's input, we have no choice. I have begun jumping to the next message as soon as I see your name at the top of the message. Trouble is, a large percentage of the messages refer to your opinions, so I am forced to read the replies to your messages. :-( ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 186 Wed Dec 02, 1992 A.VALENT [Mike] at 18:07 EST T-Bird, what kind of a kick are you getting by writing a book's worth of verbiage? It's obvious you don't approve of the machine - we registered that a time ago. And your protests miss the main point - this is not an "opinion" topic. The cat title is ATARI CORPORATION ONLINE. That suggests that its purpose is for Atari to post information and for thhe users to ask questions of fact and receive answers "from the horse's mouth", not from the horse's... well enough left unsaid. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 187 Wed Dec 02, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:38 EST A.Valent: Ever heard of "Horse Sense"? Besides, I checked and discovered that when I stop posting here, so does everyone else (at the rate of -225% per day). On top of that, you _still_ seem to think I'm complaining or something about the Falcon030. I thought I made it pefectly obvious that that notion was ridiculous. Also, what better place to convey information about the Falcon030 to Atari than in the Falcon030 topic. The topic cops would delete them if I put them in the Lynx area... Regardless, my calculations indicate that in order to reap any benefit of the billing I am charged for the long pauses GEnie takes outside of their *basic services, I must post at least 925 bytes and read 1,276 bytes each time I log on. Therefore, it is in my best interest to keep a modicum of activity here. If you experience the long pauses in GEnie yourself, then it is also in your best interest too. So, thank you kindly for your input! Billy: See previous post. _________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 188 Wed Dec 02, 1992 J.NESS [Jim] at 20:11 EST John T. - Thanks for clearing up the Kodak CD Rom question. I still think this has possibilities for home use, even given the two-piece (computer + drive) scenario. Kind of expensive, if that's all that'll be done with it, though. -JN ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 189 Wed Dec 02, 1992 SAM-RAPP [<>] at 21:02 EST Steve --------> You are in Atlanta? Wow, we are practically neighbors! The internal speaker in the Falcon can be disabled via software, the others cannot (monitor & stereo out). The PSG can only be used by feeding it's output into the ADC and then directing the ADC's output to the DAC and thus to the speaker/monitor/stereo out. The ADC's gain can be controlled via OS calls, so you could have the YAMAHA volume lowered automatically via a TSR. You apparently cannot use the PSG simultaneously with the microphone input. ---------------------> Sam 'cause I want a Falcon anyway.............. ANYONE: Does anyone have any info on DMX music that is available on many cable systems across the country? The DMX box that I have has a RCA jack labled 'digital out'.... possible uses with Falcon 030? For those that don't know, DMX provides 30+ channels of CD quality digital music 24 hours a day, no commercials, do DJ's. There is a DMX topic over in Radio/Electronics, a GEnie *BASIC service. Cat 9 Top 23. I will continue this thread there... ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 190 Wed Dec 02, 1992 G.ANDERSON at 21:10 EST I suspect we're missing a point or two here.... The Falcon WAS designed to appeal to a NEW group of users, not just the (admittedly small) existing Atari user base. To that effect, and to keep prices lower, it was made into an 'all in one' case design while adding a LOT of new features, graphics, and sound capabilities. Atari knew that this design would not appeal to many existing ST owners but I doubt if they were expecting so dramatic a response . Ok... on the Bus design... Someone commented that Atari was being a bit 'two- faced' (my understanding of the post) saying that it was designed for non- Atari owners yet the bus was limited to provide compatibility for current owners... I think the original post was slightly mis-worded... Limiting the address but to 24 bits WILL help provide backward compatibility that the TT lacks. Why do this? Because these days VERY few people want to buy a brand new system that has NO software that can run on it. Atari could either provide backward compatibility or write an awful lot of new software before releasing the Falcon.... One way was much easier and a LOT cheaper than the other with a fairly limited impact on performance. As much as I'd like to see a full 32 bit address bus I can understand and accept the decision to limit it to 24 bits. However... I do wonder about keeping the data bus to 16-bits. I'm not sure where that would make a major difference compatibility wise and, as has been well documented here already, does make a noticable performance difference. Perhaps someone can explain if it was a more than 'cost based' decision. Even so... The Falcon offers performance well above the current STe/MegaSTe line for only a little more cash. It should appeal to new owners based on its capabilities AND an established library of compatable software. For current Atari owners interested in Multi-Media it should provide a valid upgrade path and for the rest of us Atari-based 'power freaks' there is always the TT and 'Falcon, the next generation' already being bounced around this and other topic areas. The Falcon is NOT a super TT, it was never designed to be. Take it for what it is, an ENTRY LEVEL system with good graphics, great sounds, better than average performance, and a reasonable price. Me? I'm going over to the 'Next Falcon' topic and see what's in the works for the system designed for 'the rest of us' power freaks . Gregg ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 191 Wed Dec 02, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 21:27 EST I guess it is time to bug Tim to put in a IGN USER feature. I wonder if this is Thunderbird is MAS2473 (or whatever it was) with a new name? Definately the same attitude. Enough already PLEASE!! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 192 Wed Dec 02, 1992 EXPLORER.5 [Robert Goff] at 22:26 EST Just a data point: I was perusing a Falcon topic over in the MIDI RT and several folks there were impressed with the features, especially the DSP port. "How did you get the sound samples?" "I plugged in a microphone." "You did _what_?!" Some were disappointed that it didn't sample at a standard 44.5MHz without software. |) | |)O|) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 193 Wed Dec 02, 1992 J.PIERCE5 [Rob] at 23:13 EST MidiMike: Bob and Sam T. said 350,000 units per year, with half coming to the US. That's 175,000, or 583 units per dealer per month, assuming only 25 dealers in the US. Rob ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 194 Wed Dec 02, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 23:17 EST Wayne: I wrote a really nifty Desk Accessory I call "Noise Filter", which should do the trick. How much is it worth to ya? ______________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 195 Thu Dec 03, 1992 LYRE at 00:16 EST Connor, After reading your post it became clear to me that I had not been considering the Falcon 030 as an "Entry Level Machine" fully. I agree whole-heartedly with your comments. I too want something other then this particular incarnation of the Falcon. However if their are going to be any problems which require correction I would prefer they not be on *my* machine. ;) Obviously my opinion in this matter is heavily biased. Lyre ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 196 Thu Dec 03, 1992 BAREFOOT [Brad Cox] at 00:17 EST B-Man- I spoke with Paul Wiffin of D2D today and got the lowdown on their product line. Falcon D2D is bundled with the Falcon. It is a basic direct to disk recorder and simple cut and paste editor. D2D Edit is a separate product, a fully professional version with SMPTE drive and a cue sheet type editor. It costs about $300.00, not pounds. 4T/FX is a multi track program that provides mixing of the four chennels and two effects (reverb or echo or flange or distortion etc. in any combination of two). It is going to be 300 pounds, roughly $500-$600. As far as I know, the initial production Falcons will all include the bundled software. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 197 Thu Dec 03, 1992 FAIRWEATHER [David] at 00:47 EST In August Atari said the first Falcon's would reach dealer shelves in late October. In October, Atari said the first Falcon's would reach dealer shelves in late November. In November Atari said the first Falcon's would reach dealer shelves in "late December or January." Just a friendly reminder from someone who remembers all too well Atari's "six more weeks" assurances for the ST Book. I will be posting these reminders as each new projected date passes. Anyone care to bet whether I'll have to post another one on February 1? By the way. Is the Falcon even FCC approved yet for home use? At one time Atari was saying it was approved, but then I heard that the shielding was redesigned. What's the story? Is it approved or not? ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 198 Thu Dec 03, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 01:22 EST WINICK, Sheesh... and how long should ThunderBIRD or any other ATARI USER have to wait?. Never.. Never .... in the History of computers has any company taken sooooo looong to release ANY of its systems in the last three YEARS!... and there is really NO guarantee that this one will make it here before spring either! and when 486SX/DX systems(by spring)that are over twice the speed with twice the resolution are selling for LESS.. YES LESS than the Falcon... and MOST with a REAL keyboards... with a GUARANTEED software base to invest in.. Me thinks you don't understand how educated even the FIRST TIME buyers are today!! If the Falcon had ALL the promissed specs that were originally claimed.. well, they had a chance ..(minus the "OLD" MUSHY KEYBOARD)a slim chance (If delivered on time for the holidays).. but by spring, when the Falcons arrive in quantity, well hmmmmmmmm TIME TO cut Falcon prices in HALF... just to stay alive.. and QUICK release the Falcon040 by no latter than the end of Spring. B.STOREY, I must say WHAT? .... If ATARI had stuck to the SPECS, I do believe the 'Bird... would have been quite HAPPY.. right 'Bird? you remember? The Bird has been one of the MOST stunch proponents of the Falcon030 and was QUITE pleased (as I once was) with the Falcon030 (except mini-jacks) I was pointing out some Niceties in Windows3.1 and he JUMPED all-over-me!! to defend the Falcon030!!.. some of you are just NOT being fair-minded at ALL!!... sheesh.. All questions HAVE been answered already! Thanks ATARI!!! "A few more dollars" ... anywhere for $900-$1200 more.. A FEW? I sold my 1040ST for $800 and bought the Mega2 for $1199 COMPLETE with monitor.. If you were LUCKY and sold your STE for $400 complete (including your mono monitor) it would STILL cost you 900 BIG ONES to get the Falcon030 4meg/65! and you would STILL have to come up with another $300 for a low-end VGA monitor!! and the STE owners may be ATARI's main audience ('cause they WON'T advertise).. you know.. its a STARTER system!! PS: Slip in a NICE keyboard, a 32bit data bus and maybe make the BliTTer a 32 bit device to drive 800X600X256 resolution and you'll DOUBLE your sales and shut the whiners up!! ATARI, we ARE your best and ONLY sales people.. Better keep us shmucks HAPPY!!!! Wait-a-minute.. didn't I do this same thing 1 1/2 years ago.. hmmm TT030 class "B" ... almost certified... hmmm edge of chair for months hmmmmm.. still no TT030 "class B" hmmmm... No class "B" stickers on Falcons when I went to Comdex... hmmmmm.. Wait Falcon040 by the END of 1993.. long.. long wait... hmmmmm.. I detect a pattern here! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 199 Thu Dec 03, 1992 REALM [Joey] at 01:34 EST G.ANDERSON, Hey watch that TT compatibility... saying NO software runs on it is incorrect. I know thats not what you said exactly but it reads that way.:-) Everything thats worth having runs on it fine. The only thing I've found that even shows trouble are those highly copy protected mis-written games and some PD stuff. Most of it left over from the 80's. Even OIDs works on the TT! I do have a few games that work to fast to play but I can live with that.:-) All the good stuff works fine. Would it be possible to get an honest answer to when the Falcon might be available? I don't really care when it comes out I'd just like a realistic date. I'm buying one regardless, it's exactly what I need but I hate waiting for things longer then I'm suppose too. If it's coming out in July just tell me now and I'll buy it then, no problem. Believe it or not I'm actually glad it's all nice and compact in a 1040 case it'll do exactly what I need! ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 200 Thu Dec 03, 1992 S.JOHNSON10 [Steve] at 02:12 EST M.EVERHART2 - No, it was 350,000 units/year with half going to U.S. dealers. D.ENGEL - The Kodak Photo-CD unit I've read about also plays regular audio CD's and, I believe, CD-V's. It WOULD be nice for Kodak to release one with a SCSI port on it, though, even though a Kodak player isn't necessary. I've heard that Atari or a third-party is working on an inexpensive (around $200, I think) CD-ROM unit for the Falcon that will hook up to the DSP port or something like that, but I think we know how incorrect SOME of these rumors can be. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 201 Thu Dec 03, 1992 S.DANUSER [Soul Manager] at 04:24 EST I think I have an answer to everyone's problems. I will increase my amount of posting to relieve the pressure on Thunderbird. Hopefully then GEnie will still be a worthwhile investment for everyone, and long pauses won't be so annoying. ... Do I think Atari's done everything perfectly? No. But I think the old Atari Inc. messed up far worse than this Atari has. After all, they had the _huge_ resources of their video game division and Warners behind them, they had the best home computer (the 800) on the market, and great things going like the APX. and they _still_ blew it. When the Tramiels bought the computer division from Warner there was virtually nothing left except stacks of 800XL's. From this they built the ST and its descendants. Sure, they've had plenty of vaporware, bad marketing, and management turnover galore, but Atari Corp. has never had the resources of a major company. What they have had are great users who share the vision of a world that uses a superior computer. The Falcon 030 goes a long way toward reaffirming Atari's position as a viable alternative to the clone and Mac worlds. It isn't a power user's dream, but its specs look good enough to the new user to draw them away from a 486SX package (with the right salesperson helping them). Does anyone at XYZ Budget Computers bother to explain to their customers that their seemingly awesome 1024x768 graphics is 16 colors and interlaced, and that their video card only has 512K on it? Does anyone explain why you need an external cache with a processor that supposed to be superior because of its internal cache? Does the buyer care? No. They see the numbers "486" and "1024x768" and think it must be a great thing. Similarly, if someone compares the Falcon with a Performa, they will see the numbers "68030" and "16mHz" and think the machines must be pretty comparable. They won't give a hoot about data busses, because that's not what salespeople talk about. They'll see an impressive list of features in the Falcon brochure, and make a decision based on what they see it do. But J.Richter must be right. No one will buy a Falcon because of its keyboard. Right. No one who bought an ST ever said the keyboard was crappy until their PC owning buddy came over and said that his was better. Then people started complaining it was "mushy." It's kinda like that debate about mouses over in another topic a couple months back. Some like the keyboard, others don't. It's never bothered me all that much, to tell you the truth. And I do a _lot_ of typing on it. What's my point in all this rambling? That the Falcon 030 as it stands will be just peachy to the vast number of people who buy it, and, when souped up with a Jim Allen original, will be just dandy to those of us who are "moderately" power hungry. There are some who won't be satisfied until they have a 68060 with 64 bit busses and slots galore under the hood. Oh well. I hope this post was a good value for everyone's money. If not, give me suggestions for another beefy message and I'll stir it up. Soul Manager ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 202 Thu Dec 03, 1992 S.WINICK at 05:35 EST Rob, There really ARE a lot more than 25 dealers across the U.S. who will be carrying the Falcon030. Just because they don't advertise and sell on a national basis doesn't mean they aren't there. There are also a considerable number of traditional "music" dealers who will be carrying the Falcon030, many of whom already handle the 1040STe, and some the MegaSTe as well. Besides....... I'd have to rent a warehouse to handle my monthly order if I had to receive 583 Falcon's a month. Lets see.... assuming an average of 25 working days a month, that comes out to having to sell around 24 per day! Gosh, better tell the staff they can't take any more lunch or coffee breaks --- - heck, I might even have to hide the bathroom key!! ;-] Sheldon (Computer STudio - Asheville, NC) ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 203 Thu Dec 03, 1992 B.STOREY [Billy B.] at 08:25 EST Soul Manager: >"There are some who won't be satisfied............" (No matter what!) :-) In a way, that is a good thing, as it will push Atari on to developing newer and better things, but the way some people whine gets to be irritating. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 204 Thu Dec 03, 1992 BOB-BRODIE [Atari Corp.] at 13:40 EST Bill, Amen. I think the simple fact is that everyone has their own vision of what they'd like to see in the next computer they plan on buying. This is a great reason for people to post in the Future Falcons topic. At present, the Falcon is what the Falcon is. Lots of us here would like to see a few things different on it. I appreciate that input. BUT, it's important to remember that the target audience for this computer is a group of people that wouldn't know the difference between a 32 bit databus and SCSI VooDoo. We're going after the home market with this product, and we think we're going to do well. There is no point in debating with Jerry and T-Bird why they might be right or wrong in any of their assesments, other than to keep those cards and letters coming. They have their own vision of how things should be...and they're entitled to their opinion. :) We have a different vision, and looking at Kodak's current advertisements, we're in synch with them. Not a bad partner. :) regards, Bob Brodie ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 205 Thu Dec 03, 1992 F.BELL1 [Frank @ Home] at 14:31 EST ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 206 Thu Dec 03, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:05 EST Soul Manager: Explain this: How could Atari with no resources and only a stack of 800XLs accomplish the following : 1) Design a computer like the 520ST which was 5 years ahead of clones. 2) Write TOS from SCRATCH (GEM included) 3) Get it FCC class "B" approved. 4) Manufacture in quantity. 5) Display it around the country (with ACTUAL and TRUE specs). 6) Recruit dealers. 7) Place magazine ads. 8) Have it in stores for X-Mas. 9) Do all this in 6-9 months time. How do expalin why new Atari can't do _any_ of those things with all of it's $50 Million in wealth? Or does "We've got $50 Million!" _really_ translate to "We've got $50 Million of debt!"? You can never tell what these guys really mean anymore. __________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 207 Thu Dec 03, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 18:39 EST I agree with Mr. Brodie on two things: 1) Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That is even in the Constitution! :-) 2) The average person who looks at the Faclon030 knows nothing about 32 bit busses, SCSI, CPU's, etc. etc. etc. They _do_ know that 16 bits is better than 8 bits from the SNES and Sega Genesis. Some of them with an education will even be able to extrapolate that fact into 32 bits is better than 16. Those with computers will know that 32MHz is faster than 16Hz. They also know that text that crawls onto the screen is not as nice to watch as text that 'pops' onto the screen (and has different typefaces). Those with sight can see that 1024x768x16,000,000+ is better than (640x480x256 PLUS 640x480x65,000+). Those who watch TV will know that it does not contain "The library card that lets you run the programs of today AND tomorrow.". Who is to tell them otherwise? Those who work hard for a dollar know that $1299 is LESS than $1999 for similar household appliances. I don't know about the rest of you, but I just don't see how the buying public is that stupid. The auto industry said the same things about them back in the late 70's, and look where it go them... and they weren't at the bottom of the heap when they said them either. I want them to succeed with the Falcon. I just don't see how they plan to do it, or any sign of an attempt. __________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 208 Thu Dec 03, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 19:07 EST I think I figured it out now. I could have been wrong earlier. I did manage to think of one segment of the public that is as ignorant about computers as Atari suggests... Preschoolers! It's either that, or they plan to sell the things for half of what they've been saying. Everything else has been halved... _____________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 209 Thu Dec 03, 1992 ST.LOU [Lou Rocha] at 19:09 EST Bill, I think your point is very valid. All companies need to hear from their customers if they want to ensure that they are on the right track. I guess I am a little distressed when I read remarks that the machine "ain't so great" and the software "doesn't appeal to the new user". These comments can only be validated by the sales or non-sale of those products and programs. Until that information is available, all we are dealing with is negative speculation. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 210 Thu Dec 03, 1992 B.WILLIS3 [Bill] at 20:28 EST The Falcon 030 article in the January KEYBOARD magazine is surprisingly positive. They're painting the Falcon as a strong contender in the multi-media field. This is surprising since, in the past few years, Keyboard has not been particularly friendly to Atari products. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 211 Thu Dec 03, 1992 R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 20:33 EST D.ENGEL, What do you mean teh new Atari can't do any of those things? The same Atari today is the same Atari that DID do all those things in '85. ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 212 Thu Dec 03, 1992 K.HOUSER [Kevin MQ Def] at 22:45 EST Steve Johnson, If you are in Atlanta... we are REALLY neighbors (almost heheh). I'm in Smyrna. I looked in the phone book for ya. Too MANY of those Steve J. guys running around. So how much are MSTe's going for here in Atlanta? Any blowout sales? Have you actually seen an Amiga 1200 yet? No real questions on the Falcon except -- WHEN????????????????????????? T-Bird, Obviously you haven't been out of the compu-geek circles lately. I encounter MANY people who are COMPLETELY computer illiterate every day. AND this is in my everyday job at a "Hi tech" company. :) I'm sure Jack's ComodeDoor sale left him with at least a *LITTLE* pocket change. :) --Kevin ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 213 Thu Dec 03, 1992 D.ENGEL [Thunderbird] at 22:47 EST Wayne: I don't have the figures handy, but I'd say that aside from the Tramiels and maybe 1 or 2 others, EVERYONE who worked for Atari when the ST came out is GONE. It sure seems to be true from appearances. The company who put out the ST is NOT the same one who can't put out these less ambitious products. Or, so it would seem to the casual observer, I am told. ___________________________ \hunderbird ------------ Category 14, Topic 20 Message 214 Thu Dec 03, 1992 J.RICHTER [J.RICHTER] at 23:10 EST Soul Manager, Sorry, you are JUST plain wrong! The 486SX systems sold were I work are ALL 1024X768X256 NON-INTERLACED ... you been away from the PC market, you can't believe the stuff that is available TODAY for UNDER $1600 complete with SVGA monitor and 120meg HD!! I will admit the 24bit cards are a little more.. but I have seen even these for under $500!! mail order.. some of these systems include the C31 chip-sets which DOUBLE the speed of Windows 3.1... And believe me.. you can use Word for Windows 2.0 and scroll through 10 pages of documents at OVER twice the speed of the Falcon030's new Speedo Font Word Processor!! I am sorry.. but I don't believe ATARI was aware of the advances in 486 based PC's in the last 6months or so.. sigh... I still like MultiTOS better and with the REAL FALCON it would be a HOT HOT setup.. Bob, Thanks for the GRACIOUS comments! I still think ATARI is grossly underestimating the "HOME" computer buyer!! These days.. with money so tight, if the first time buyer does'nt know something, they usually take some one along that does! and this someone is always wispering COMPATIBILITY and GRAPHICS and WORD PROCESSORS ... COMPARE to IBM and Apple.. and.. where.. oh where BOB are they going to finds these Falcon030 systems? Do you think folks will pay $1300 sight unseen? Two of my BEST ATARI Friends/Fanatics just jumped ship to 486-33 SVGA systems!! They just flat GAVE-UP after listening to the local ATARI dealer and his excuses for NOT HAVING any Falcon030's for the Holidays.. again... again.. again.. and .. and again!! Bob, put you hand over your heart and make a pledge "I promise ATARI will dealiver an FCC "class B" Falcon030 to your nearest dealer in quantity BEFORE the Spring of 93' ... come-on BOB please.. I asked this SAME question over (1)year ago about the TT030.. and got NO response! If ATARI cannot make this SIMPLE pledge .. then all of us should just IGN PERM ... Period. ------------