
Tuesday 22-Nov-94 23:51:34

--1850--

BB> You paid for 2.37 AND again for 2.60R1 AND again for v3.xx?
BB> How much each time?

S> No, I GOT CNet on version 2.60R1 for $99 and then I paid another $100 for
S> the upgrade to 3.xx.

That's what I thought.
I don't consider "1 update fee" for "all updates between v2.60R1 and
v3.99" as anything against the policy that has always been in effect
for updates.  A policy that you should have known about.

You might disagree with the "amount" paid, but the policy has NOT been
violated.  The cost might seem high to some, low to others.

S> Needless to say, I was pretty pissed about this cuz I only paid $18 less
S> for my upgrade to CNet 3.xx than anyone else could have paid to buy it
S> outright for the first time.  What a deal... A raw deal...

Those are the kinds of things you should mention to Ken, and to everyone.

What could have been done better in your eyes?
An $18 update fee?  That's the only amount that would have be
"correct" given what you paid earlier.  $18 for all the features in
v2.60R1->v3.99 would have been an absurd bargin.

Imagine the people that paid a lot more than $99 for v2.xx...
And still paid $100 for the v3.xx update.
And I still (as of today) see v3.xx listed for $117 for new users.
What's the answer?  Something that's fair to Ken/Jim, fair to past
users updating, fair to new users buying, fair to mail-order houses,
fair to local retailers.  That's spreading some pretty small profits,
pretty darn thin.

--1851--

LJ> Some of my users have been calling my system using QModem Pro (commercial
LJ> version of a popular shareware program) and having problems with the

Les, I know that this doesn't help, but I'd like to add something...

One of my user's said that when using IBM-ProComm the cursor keys
don't work in CNet's full screen editor.  I don't know anything about
IBMs, so I don't know what to tell him.

I really think Ken needs to add something to a future release of CNet.
An "EP" or "ET" choice like "Set-up ctrl keys".
It would just prompt the user with things like:
> Hit your cursor-up key now:
> Hit your cursor-down key now:
> Hit your cursor-left key now:
> Hit you cursor-right key now:
(And any others that are commonly used and different between certain computers.)

It would record (and save) what the user needs for its cursor-keys.
Should make darn near anything work OK.  (No matter how "odd" your
computer's keys are set-up.)

--1852--

CH> I need to know How do you limit the number of messages in a message base?
CH> Can someone help me with this?

It's very important to keep 2 very different things straight:
1) The # of items.
2) The # of responses made onto those items.

Each sub's "EL" screen can limit #1 with "Maximum items".

#2 has to be "limited" indirectly, by other means....
The "EL" screen's "Purge old responses" and "Amaint inactive days".

--1853--

When I type LIST at a subboard prompt, I see the subboard list.
I'd like to have the "+" "-" and "*" characters appear in different
colors (or at least the "*") to set them apart from the other text.

What line of BBSTEXT are the actual "+-*" characters stored in?

(It is NOT line 320.)

DW>  * Description: Colorize the +/-/* area flag, shown when listing
DW> subboards.  *
DW> %2d. %5s
DW> {L70#%c}{T70#-}{JN1}\c1{JA3}{1}{T70#+}{JN2}\c2{JA3}{2}{T70#*}{JN3}\ca{3}{V70}
DW> \q1 %s\q1

That looks like *EXACTLY* what I need.  Hopefully Ken will see that in feature
in action on a few BBSs and make a future release of CNet:BBSTEXT have:
> +
> -
> *
in it.  So simple.

Thanks again!

--1854--

BB> Do you have "Repair_sub" in your "Pfiles:Maintenance/repair_sub" dir?

SB>         Bill, just to let you know, I found the problem.  It was with the
SB> directory name.  Mine was called PFiles:Maint/ and I have now changed it
SB> and it works great!  Thanks!!

No charge.  I'd just like to add, you can find out where many of the
other things need to be located (and what they need to be called) by
typing the following line at the DOS prompt:

> search cnet:bbs pfiles

That cmd should work for any past, present, or future releases of
CNet, too.  Even if the pfile names and paths have changed from
release to release.  It'll tell you where *YOU* need them, based on
the version you are using at any given time.

--1855--

K> I hope so.  I just bought my version about 10 days ago or so....  I tried
K> everything and it doesn't ask.  Although in the new user questions I do
K> get a stray {} at the very end of the questions.  If I'm missing a line in
K> my BBStext file could someone let me know what it's supposed to say?

It's hard to tell which of the over 2000 lines are "missing".
And if you accidently delete 1 line, 100s of lines after it can appear in the
wrong location.  (All will be 1 less than where they need to be.)

Have you modified your BBStext in ANY way?  If so, try the original again.
(At least to see if BBStext is even the problem at all.)

Does your BBStext have EXACTLY 2104 lines in it?
And line #2103 should read something like
> \n1Searching--use control-C to abort\n1
If not, you've accidently added (or deleted) a line some place.
But where?  Hard to say.

--1856--

JR> Hey, does anyone know if a NULL-MODEM port is counted against the
JR> SYSTEM-ACTIVITY GRAPH?

KR> I seem to remember someone else saying that it didn't. IMHO, it shouldn't
KR> either.

I'm sure some users will want null-modem ports counted, others won't.
An active user on a null-modem port is STILL system-activity.

Some users will want (and won't want) certain 'maintenance" ports counted.
(Not truly null-modem-cabled, but rather just no-bbsport file.)

Some users will want (and won't want) local and/or remote log-ins counted.

Here's the end-all solution Ken needs to impliment:
Give each config/modem screen a list-gadget marked with...
1) AG LOCAL calls
2) AG REMOTE calls
3) AG ALL calls
4) AG NO calls

Am I forgetting anything?  Please add any comments.  Thanks.

BB> Give each config/modem screen a list-gadget marked with...
BB> 1) AG LOCAL calls
BB> 2) AG REMOTE calls
BB> 3) AG ALL calls
BB> 4) AG NO calls

DF> What might even give the Sys-Ops beter control would be just a simple
DF> string gadget in the config program for "Port Rang For AG".  Then you
DF> could pick what port you want.

That might even be better.  (Especially for 10-20 line systems.  You
could see all the AG-settings at a glance instead of clicking thru 10-
20 port settings 1-by-1.)

But I'd guess we'd need 2, not just 1 string-gadgets:
1) Port Rang For AG (if local) : 2,4,6,8
2) Port Rang For AG (if remote): 2,4,10-20
(Since any/all ports can be used for local or remote log-ins.)

I might want port #11 counted in the AG graph for remote (but not
local) log-ins.  Or the other way 'round.

...keep those ideas coming...

--1857--

TY> annoying!  It's also a waste of bandwidth if you ask me - sure, Fidonet
TY> SPEC should be followed - but I've received at least 4 of these - and
TY> there's nothing I can do to correct the problem.  If anything, we should
TY> send all these types of messages to Ken - hopefully he'll like, download
TY> the FTS-001 specsheet, and follow it.

I bet Ken will take note faster if he can just read the brief, exact
FTS-001 quote pertaining to this one subject.  (And NOT have to hear
"go find the info yourself and wade through tons of Fidonet docs".)

Will someone please post the exact quote from FTS-001 that CNet is
"possibly" not following?  Thanks.

JR> It sems that C-Net isn't following the proper format when someone posts
JR> during the midnight hour perhaps???  The time field should read 00:xx:xx
JR> instead of just 0:xx:xx if I am not mistaken.....

Does anybody know where (or if) in CNet:BBS (or CNet:BBSTEXT) we can
change "%2d" into "%02d" thus fixing this problem without waiting for
a CNet update.  How?

BB> I bet Ken will take note faster if he can just read the brief, exact
BB> FTS-001 quote pertaining to this one subject.  (And NOT have to hear
BB> "go find the info yourself and wade through tons of Fidonet docs".)

BB> Will someone please post the exact quote from FTS-001 that CNet is
BB> "possibly" not following?  Thanks.

TY> If an author is writing a program which is supposed to interface with
TY> something - like Fidonet - the author SHOULD be obtaining the
TY> specs/policies in the first place.

They apparently (according to you) weren't followed.  A lot of things
"should" or are "suppose" to happen in this world.  It didn't.  Let's
get the exact quote to Ken ASAP.  The case will be closed.  Even if
Ken already knows about it, *I'D* like to have the piece of mind in
knowing what the actual FTS-001 quote is.

I'm still not 100.00% convinced...
I just find it incredibly hard to believe that CNet's all over the world have
created 10000s of msgs with CNetToss, posted between midnight and 9:59am, 100%
of them had illegal times in them.  And we just heard about this in public, in
this echo, just recently.

I can't tell you how many 1000s of msgs I've had come just out on my 1
BBS alone.  And a grand total of zero of them have been bounced back
to me marked "BAD TIME FORMAT".  What causes that?

TY> How can you write something if you don't already know the format/policies?

Some authors might follow them 90% or 95% or 99% or 100%.  You'll have to ask Ken why it happened.  Maybe just an oversight.

TY> All one has to do is dissect a FIDO message - and inspect it - and ask
TY> questions like "Does FIDO messages coming into my system have the leading
TY> "0" for the hours less than 10?"

I wouldn't base *MY* code just because some msgs I looked at displayed
the dates/times a certain way.  They might be wrong themselves.
FTS-001 should be followed instead.

--1858--

JB> What I need to do is have arexx load the editor, insert some text and then
JB> save it into a specific message sub. I can set the from:, to: and subject
JB> fields and get the desired text into the editor but then I'm stuck..
JB> SAVEEDITOR will only save to a given path..

Those arexx cmds are only for "editing text" and/or "sending private mail to 1
user".  *NOT* posting msgs in subs.  I know of no such arexx cmds within CNet.
(I'd love to see them added though.)

Writing in "C" might be able to do that.  I haven't.  And don't know how.

I know you can by-pass CNet entirely and toss a msg directly into
Fidonet echo.  (It goes directly to your outbound directory, and will
NOT appear online at your system.)

Prgs like this:
xpkt10.lha                  9829 ----rwed 17-Nov-94 23:59:59
: v1.0 allows you to examine Fidonet PKT files
pktm0962.lha               14478 ----rwed 17-Nov-94 07:57:35
: v0.961b2 creates FidoNet PKT-files from a textfile, by Johnny Sjoo 05Apr94
crpkt20.lha                 8971 ----rwed 17-Nov-94 07:45:07
: v2.0 creates FidoNet PKT-files from a textfile, by Johan Billing 05Jun94
mailDaemon.lha              2020 ----rwed 16-Nov-94 23:59:59
: Arexx-script v1.0, post any text-file to any echo

All that I ask is that whatever you come up with, PLEASE release it
for everyone to use.  Thanks.

--1859--

TY> If you are receiving any NETWORK mail, "TOSS" doesn't regard the limits
TY> you have placed on each sub-board.  What SHOULD happen (if Ken ever gets
TY> around to finshing/starting the next release) - is TOSS should look at the
TY> subboard limits, and respect them.

I'm using Ken's CNetToss and it DOES correctly toss new items to "BAD" with info like:
FULL:CNET_BBS
FULL:CNET
FULL:AMIGA_SYSOP
(If those subs become full.)

I would rather have it work like you claim (and dislike) it already does:
1) CNetToss ignores the limits.
2) Tosses everything correctly in full.
3) Amaint brings the totals back down to within limits.

That way you'd get "a 2nd chance" to up your limits WITHOUT tons of
msgs going to BAD or (worse yet) NIL (if you don't use BAD).

You won't know how handy that is until you have your packets delays a
few days and have a giant build-up all come in at once.  Ugh.

--1860--

BC> What we really need to do is form a pfiles writters club. How about we
BC> setup a group effort and put out a disk? I have the capability at work to
BC> put together a professional package as well as duplicate disks. Any
BC> authors out there want to organize this with me? Something were the only
BC> place the files can be gotten is on that disk? Proceeds cover mailing and
BC> disk costs. Authors get wide spread of their work and cnet gets credit
BC> for being a fine package.

JR> I personally I am extremely interested in something like this.  I am very
JR> motivated about programming and hacking things together for my BBS, and I
JR> would love to help out other SysOps as well.

Which are better/faster/cheaper/wide distribution methods....
1) Copy disks 1-by-1, opening envelopes, read orders, addressing
labels, send out disks using US MAIL.  (Ugh.)  This is 1994.

2) U/Ling to Future World, The Amiga ShareWare HeadQuarters BBS, file
distribution echos like ADS, SKY/SAN, CFDS.  The internet FTP.
Fidonet File-Requests.  For high-speed file transfer for anyone
anywhere in the world that wants them.

#1 is great for collection shareware fees.  But a BIG waste of time if
all you are trying to do is "cover mailing and disk costs".

Please consider doing #2 instead.
Thanks for listening.

--1861--

MJ> Can anyone tell me if it's possible to edit a multi-mail party list?

If you know the path and name of the list-file, just type this at any prompt:
> WF mail:users/cr.MyList

The format used is:
> account number             serial number            handle
> account number             serial number            handle
> account number             serial number            handle
> account number             serial number            handle

If you are going to be doing that often enough, it might be worth just adding
it directly into BBSMENU:
> EPL, Edit Party List ~ WF mail:users/cr.MyList

Create as many as you like.

--1862--

RH> I would like to know how I can run AO as an event each Hour.

You can run darn near anything at any yearly, monthly, weekly, hourly,
minutely, secondly interval.  Once or repeated as often as you like.

RH> What is going on is I am getting the Fido File Bone for the Amiga and when
RH> the new files come in they do not get add till my Automate kicks in at
RH> 4am.

But that will also do *ALL* amaint functions every hour.
All BBS-listing checks and purges, all user expiration checks/purges,
all item and response purges in all msg bases, all AO in all file
areas, everything.

Not too desirable.

We need to convince Ken that amaint needs a handful of options so that
*WE* can control which functions it does.  You could set it to "only
do AO" and run it hourly, or as often as you like.

I think Ken believes that I'm one of the very few people that needs
that feature.  We need to convince him that *MANY* people would use
it.  Address your msgs (or netmail) to "KEN PLETZER".  He's the only 1
that can add it.

--1863--

MW> Anyways, I always save a bunch of my mail, as it has the addresses of
MW> people I write to, mostly with INTERNET EMAIL...  It's easier to read a
MW> letter and Reply to it, rather than type in the full address myself...
MW> Wouldn't an "address book" be kewl??

Have you seen "AFmenu.rexx v1.1 Wed 26-Oct-94"?

Instead of (remembering and) entering:
> "MS;AreaFix@1:2410/1030;Y;MyPassWord;NNNY"
you just pick "B" from the menu.  The prg does the rest.

(Of course it can be used with AreaFix, Raid, FidoNet netmail,
Internet mail, local mail, anything you like.)

File requ "AFmenu.LHA" from 1:2410/207.

--1864--

MW> JOIN command.  At the J command, users are thrust into room #0 of the
MW> COnference rooms..  Wouldn't it be kewl, if the SYSOP could set WHERE in
MW> the Conf rooms that user would go...  Say, all users under 18 go to one
MW> room. And users with AG 10 would go to a different room.  Etc etc...

If Ken adds that feature to a future release of CNet, how would you like to see
the config'ing done?

How would we attach a certain room # to a certain age, to certain AG group, to
certain access flags, etc?

What would occur if a user was BOTH under 18 years old *AND* AG 10?
Which values would override the others?

What would happen to join-link sessions?  Where ages and access levels aren't
known between the various BBSs.

If that info was shared between join-linking BBSs, what happens if level #10 on
1 system means something very different that level #10 on another?

Ken (and pfile authors) are probably more likely to impliment things if they
have those kinds of "sticky" details worked out.  (Or at least mentioned by
folks.)

Please keep the ideas coming.  I've seen others beginning to take attitudes of
"Ken hasn't released the next update yet, so I refuse to help him out with
suggestions for new features".  That just makes matters twice as bad.  That's
the last thing we need now.

--1865--

K> didn't upgrade the BBStext file because I was afraid of losing a week's
K> worth of work.

Can't skip updating the things that need to be updated.

There are several handy BBSTEXT UPDATER files you can run.
Takes a few seconds, and they preserve the modifications that you've made from
update to update.

I use...
UpBBStxt.LHA               20236 ----rwed 04-Aug-94 21:17:17
: Compares/updates your CNet-BBS BBStext file in 5 seconds

--1866--

KM> Kind of screwy if you ask me. Any solutions to help get rid of this?

KM> I've already tried deleting the net that was in conflict and then
KM> re-adding it, then the next id to follow would get it.

I have NOT tried this, but it might work.  Please let me know.

A)  Save a backup copy of your "CNet:bbs#?" data files so they can later be
restored.

B) Create a "DUMMY" net to "fill in" for the one you deleted.
Thus the original 1,2,3,4,5 net order, will still be 1,2,3,4,5 even if #3 (or
whatever) is just a net called DUMMY3.

Thus #4 and #5 (which used to be 4 and 5 in the past) will be #4 and #5 once
again.

C) Ask Ken to fix this in the next release of CNet.

--1867--

MM> As far as I can tell, no..

MM> I accidentaly stayed logged on all day once, from about 9am untill 7pm one
MM> day on a null port, and my system activity never moved...

System activity can be very misleading.

Here's the info on both:
A) The overall usage % that config/sysinfo gives.
B) The individual lines of the AG graph itself.

If you have 40,000 minutes of active time, and 20,000 minutes of inactive time,
that's 50%.  (Obviously.)

[A]
If you stay online another 10 hours, as you did, that's 40,600 minutes of
active time and 20,000 minutes of inactive time.  That's 49.3%

[B]
Each individual line of the AG graph will increase 20 minutes even if you stay
online ALL DAY EACH DAY.  40,020 VS 20,000 or 49.98%

Once you let your AG graph run for a few weeks, very little will change even
under DRASTIC changes in system activity.

I hope I'm correctly understanding the AG data.  If not, will someone please
let me know.

--1868--

On Wed 07-Dec-1994 12:12a, Jason wrote:
J> Does anyone happen to know the getuser # for account expiration dates?
J> Thanks!

In addition to the tips other users have already posted...

Prgs like "DayCount.rexx" also show examples of how to get/show
expiration dates in arexx.

For those of you not familiar with "DayCount.rexx", it displays text
during log-in like:

> It has been 12 days since your last call on Sun 14-Nov-1994 10:12am.
> This account will expire in 3.2 months.
> Automatically changing from level #16 to level #5.

--1869--

K> Now I don't know if you think this is cool for a tosser but how about
K> 1) a TWIT filter

I'd like to see that, but NOT as part of the tosser.

1)  I don't need the tosser slowed down any further.

2) I'd just like to see "EP;18" allow each user to key in a list of
user names.  When reading msgs, those names would be skipped. (Email
msgs, as well as public msgs.)  Each user could set-up a different list
of twit-names.

If that feature is instead placed into the tosser, how would each user
determine his INDIVIDUAL list of twits?

Also, does anyone know what Fidonet policy states about removing msgs
from the msg flow itself?  I assume that's what a tosser-twit-filter
would do.  Stop *ALL* msgs from a certain user from reach *ALL* users
on your BBS.  Is that even legal?  (That's a question, not a
statement.)

#2 would allow individuals not wanting to read certain msgs to simply
skip reading them.  But the msgs themselves would continue to exist in
case others wanted to read them.  (Different strokes for different
folks.)

How do other twit-filters work?  At the "tosser" level?  At the "user"
level?

Khyron, keep those ideas coming.  We just might be surprised what Ken
puts into the next CNet update.

--1870--

IC> over.  I KNOW it shouldn't be skipping them, but it does!  I, in the past,
IC> have mentioned problems I have found, and he has always come back with it
IC> being due to running a modified BBSTEXT.  That really kills me though,
IC> because
IC> I once even tried it on the "original" BBSTEXT, and I still had the same
IC> problems.

Did you re-mention that fact to Ken also?  Or get several other people
to also try the "original" BBSTEXT, and jointly mention it to Ken?

I haven't discussed that with Ken at all.  So I don't know if he's
POSITIVE it is not a bug, or "doubtful", or whatever.  (I haven't run
into the problem that you mentioned.)

It's a good example why "everyone should tell Ken about problems!!!!".
One user, having one problem, just might not be enough to help locate a bug.
(Or even verify that a bug truly exists.)

IC> By the way, I found another problem.  I think the reason why
IC> AutoMaintenance
IC> doesn't run all the time is because I noticed that IDLE TIME is being used
IC> while AutoMaint is running.  The other night when I came home from work, I

I'm not sure what the events scheduler uses as its "idle time limit".
Maybe whatever the "idle time limit" is for user #1.  (???) What is
your's set to?  Maybe crank it up and try again.  I'll have to do some
more experimenting when I get some free time.  (I hope several other
sysops will beat me to it, and post their results.)

--1871--

I>         I need someone to help me with Switching the local port on the
I> Cnet 3.05c verison. I messed up and logged in under port 1 when i first
I> started out the system. Now i need to switch it .

I hope this is the info you are looking for...

If port #1 does NOT have a matching "CNet:bbsport1" file, then that
port is considered a "local" port.

Same for the other bbsport0 bbsport47 bbsport# etc files.

It won't matter which port you "log-in under", nor if it's "when you
start out" or "later", nor if it's "Port #1", or "Port #x".  You can
have as many local (or remote) ports as you like (upto 100 max).
Under any port numbers you like.

(I hope I'm understanding you correctly.)

--1872--

JB> The basic idea of the tool, to protect Special areas of Your Base/Udbase
JB> with passwords or such things, isnt that bad.

Except for the callers that have to remember (and type-in) all those
passwords on EVERY CALL there.

If only 10 BBSs have passworded subs, and each have only 3, that's
*30* more passwords that I have to write down (or memorize).  And, of
course, match the correct password with each correct sub, on each
correct BBS.  1 mistake and I'm locked-out of that sub.

I can't imagine why flags, access levels, U/L, D/L, post, response
levels, Restricted hours, Groups during hours, Flags during hours,
Baud-restrict hours, MinBaud during hours, Computer types, Youngest
age, Oldest age, Gender restriction, Minutes time lock, aren't MORE
than enough security for a subboard.

And invite and uninvite too.

And callers don't have to remember (or key-in) a SINGLE subboard-
password.

--1873--

MW> One mention about the FI command that cause my users to freak..  When they
MW> FI themselves, they see ALL their info!  If I had a nickel for everytime I
MW> have received a PANIC LETTER, saying that all their info is public, I
MW> would be a wealthy man.  I advise them that the FI displays ALL the info,
MW> to them and to a SYSOP. No one else...   :^)

It would be handy if "FI" also marked data with "*" meaning "private info".
(CNet already does that in other areas, but not with "FI" for some odd reason.)

I'll make that suggestion to Ken.  Maybe we'll see it in the next CNet update.

--1874--

Lucas Simmons@1:102/334

LS> Bug in new CNet version ....

Which "new" version is that?  (There haven't been any "new" releases
in 10 months.)

CNet shows the version # during every log-in (or use the "!V" cmd).
It's a much more accurate way to identify a specific release instead
of just using the word "new".

LS> This is a serious security thing ....

It's a tricky decision:
1) Don't tell anyone because the problem will just get abused more and more.
2) Tell everyone so that we can protect ourselves.
   (And it might help get a bug-fix released faster.)
3) Worry everyone that there's a problem, but don't tell anyone what it is.

Right now you left us at #3.

If you'd like to netmail me the full details of this problem, I'll
take FULL responsibility when I make a decision to do #1, 2, or 3.
(Or I might just post it in the CNet-Beta-Testers echo which only a
very FEW people have access to.)

--1875--

A few users are claiming that sometimes when an acct is deleted, the
home-dir is left behind.  I haven't been able to track that down.
Maybe a "----rwe-" locked file flag?  Maybe a nested subdir that still
has files in it?

But in either case, if CNet's executable had both the "ALL" and "FORCE"
options on all 4 of the below items, it would be sure to delete the
files it needs to:

1> delete >NIL: mail:users/%s all
2> delete >NIL: mail:users/%dport/#?
3> delete >NIL: "%s%d/%s"
4> delete >NIL: "%sUPLOAD%d" all

Or at least on #1.  (I assume that's how CNet deletes an old home-dir.)

Also...
I hope all is well in CNet land.  If there's anything that I can
publicly state regarding CNet's current developement, please let me
know.  I'll be happy to address a few of the comments I'm seeing made
in the CNet Fidonet echos, with "quotes from Ken".

--1876--

Bob Maple ...

BB> But I will admit I don't understand his "humor" or your type of "fun"
BB> explaination.

BM> I suppose you're anti-April-fools too.

Definitely.  Childish pranks are for children.  Dangerous pranks?  No
thanks.  And in this case, illegal pranks.  Not for me.

I've only found 3 people on the planet that sounded in favor of
illegal version # hacking of CNet.  1-2 actually did it.  But all 3
found it very amusing.

> Jeff Hayer@1:203/227
> Pete Baker@911:6000/14
> Bob Maple@911:7000/0

I can't possible believe any of their future claims on ANY topic.

Why don't you REALLY have some fun and hack version #s and run CNet
v3.06 until further notice?  I'm sure Ken and Jim and everyone will
find it hilarious beyond belief.  Let's have a blast, OK?  They'll be
rolling in the aisles for weeks.  My sides, my sides.  v3.05c hacked
into v3.06?  Bahahahahehehehbahahhe.  That's rich!  I can't stand the
laughter.  Oh please stop, please stop, you're killing me.  v3.05c
hacked into v3.06?  A riot!!!

--1877--

M> As I said, Ken OR Jim should post a message with SOLID facts about CNet's
M> future.  If that were done the rumors would most certainly cease, at least
M> for awhile.

Jim/Ken should definitely post some info.  But *WE* can't control
that, *WE* can't force them to.  But each 1 of us CAN post "more facts
that we hear" and less "rumors that we just made up".  (I'm NOT
directing that at you, but just as a generic statement.)

Let's control things what we actually CAN control...
We can STILL help each other with tips/comments/ideas/suggestions.
We can post direct quotes that we get from Ken/Jim.  (Where allowed.)
We can switch to better BBS software if we dislike CNet or the lack of recent updates.
If the next update is a pay release, we can pay for it, or just stick with v3.05c.

NOT things that we can't control....
I'm going to force Ken to release an update.
I'm going to force that to occur THIS WEEK.
I'll swear at Ken/Jim until they support CNet as *I* think they should.
I'll make-up rumors that the CNet BBS has closed, that CNet has be
dropped, that they IBM/CNet release is being worked on, that Ken has
passed away.
We can illegally change our v3.05c version #s into
v4.00a strings, as a joke.

Those things just aren't very productive.  But I guess folks are free
to do whatever they want.  (Including making a bad situation much,
much worse.)  Not I.

--1878--

TW> ...is there a 28.8 line?

Nope.  Unfortunately not.  Maybe some day.  I wonder if Ken/Jim know
how cheap 28k8 modems are already.  ($200-$249).  I wonder if Ken/Jim
know how many of us already have 28k8.  They won't know until we tell
them.

I think it would be great if Ken got 112 pieces of netmail tomorrow,
from 112 users, that each stated, PLEASE ADD A 28k8 LINE.

It's as simple as "MS Ken Pletzer@1:2410/215".

I'm still at 14k4.  (But a caller has loaned me a 28k8 modem for the
next 1-2 weeks.  I bet it'll be hard for me to switch back to 14k4
afterwards and I too will be going 28k8 permanently.)

--1879--

On Wed 14-Dec-1994  9:25p, Cold Warrior said to The Wizard:
CW> CNet Toss has a real problem with inter-zone feeds. If hub and node are in
CW> different zones, Toss will repack all the messages and boomerang them back
CW> to the hub.

That's the first I've heard about this bug (and CNetToss has been out
for 8 months already.)

Have you already mentioned that to Ken?  If not, please do.  Thanks.

--1880--

LA> does anyone know if there is a Pfile that could be run during a scan mess
LA> listing so that a user could mark certain messages that looked good to
LA> them and then be able to read them using the RM command?

I haven't seen a pfile like that.  But I'd like to convince Ken to
just allow things like "BROWSE MESS" to work in a future release of
CNet.  Is that pretty much what you are trying to do here?

--1881--

NS> Cnet 3.05C(rap) was released on .. umm.. sometime early 1993 ?? .. and

That is a false statement.  v3.05c is NOT released early in 1993.
It was released around 10-Feb-1994.
                              ^^^^

You think v3.05c is crap now?  You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
(Mine differs greatly.)

NS> Products/Perspective .. then there will be about 20 people that I know of,
NS> throwing Cnet Amiga in the closet and changing software to something that

I don't believe that 20 folks will do that.  But if they want to, it's
probably best for them.  And I bet they will be switching back to CNet
as soon as the next update is released.  (If not sooner.)

I feel that 20 (your guess) lost sales is NOT really that many for The
Most Popular Amiga BBS Software On The Planet Earth.  CNet.

If they lose 20, I bet more than 20 new buyers will occur during the
next release of CNet.

Would *I* run things differently?  Sure.  Would you?  Sure.  Would
everyone?  Sure.  Different people run companies differently.  You
could probably get 100s of different opinions/tips as to how to run a
good company.  The point is that *WE* don't run the company.  And we
never will.

I don't try and run Ford Motor Company.  If I like their products/
prices/service/policies, I buy their products.  If I don't like them,
I shop elsewhere.

Oh I might write an unhappy letter or two.  But after I see many
months of no change, I shop elsewhere.  (If fact, I'd probably shop
elsewhere anyway.  I don't need headaches.)

Notice what BBS software I'm still running.  (And will for a long,
long time to come.)  But the *SECOND* something better is released, I
switch.  But I'd do that regardless of whether CNet has had 0 new
updates or 47.  I need to run the best Amiga BBS software on the
planet.  I currently feel that is CNet.

--1882--

JG> Hey does anybody know if there is a way to "lock a user out" of Cnet.. I
JG> know it can be done on E!.. I am having problems with a kiddie here who
JG> won't leave.. even after he has been deleted 3 times.. and has had his 3
JG> fake accounts deleted as many times...

Stick his name (in part, or in full) in the systext:BadNames file.
More info on page 263 in the CNet manual.

But, of course, he (and anyone) can just use another fake name next time.

Unless you want to lock-out ALL new-user-registrations, it's next to
impossible to truly lock a user out of your system.

Maybe it might be better to give him access, and just NOT let him do
the things you specifically don't want him to do.  Post, U/L, D/L,
Read, Response, access, pfiles, gfiles, news, whatever.

Show him that you only have 2 file areas, and 3 msg areas online.
(And just hide the remaining 100s.)
If he doesn't like it, oh well, there's not much he can do about it.
If he complains too much, you can turn off that access too.

But I'd rather do things just the opposite...
Show users that I *DO* have quite a big/useful set-up here.  But if
you want access you have to behave and at least follow SOME of the
rules.  If not, oh well, it's HIS loss, not mine.  I'll still have
full access, he won't.

--1883--

TV> BB> We need to convince Ken that amaint needs a handful of options so that
TV> BB> *WE* can control which functions it does.

TV> Bill what needs to be done is to start a "CNet Programming Union" where
TV> all of the CNet programmers can make suggestions, and plans on the future
TV> of CNet...

I thought we already were.  In several different echos, as well as
future-world BBS itself.  Some folks have given up, many have NOT.
Take a look at the THOUSANDS of CNet tips/comments/suggestions/ideas
in my latest KEN.LHA file.

TV> and also start writing the bug fixs ourselves and/or just write
TV> new ones.
TV> How hard would it be for some of us to start repairing CNet, and write new
TV> feature.

Without the CNet source code?  Without even the full info on how
things work within CNet?

To this day I've never seen anyone (other than Ken) successfully (and correctly)
possess source code to do something as simple as:
1) Take this text-file and make it into a post (or response) into a
   certain sub.

Kind of makes writing a full-blown replacement mail-Tosser pretty hard.
(To put it mildly.)

--1884--

JG> That is what I am worried about, I would rather have the user online and
JG> have him with a "LOCKED OUT" Flag, like the Beemer BBS's have and E!, this
JG> way the user still has his account, but cannot log in.  That is what we
JG> need!

Huh?  Just change his password to "FOO" and he's pretty much "locked
out" (but his acct remains as long as you choose.)

Or you can..

Create an access group (with the AG cmd) #13 (or whatever) that has
very low access.  (Time, bytes, files, flags, feedbacks, calls, bauds,
msgs/call, etc.)  Set this "locked out" user to that access group and
he won't be able to do very much online.  Have a special text-file
CNet:Sys.Access13 displayed to him that tells him whatever you like.

What will this special "locked out" flag (that you are proposing) do
that can't already be done (a number of ways) already?  What do the
IBM and E systems do with it?

--1885--

I realize it was the month before last, but I don't think Ken's plans
have changed any since then.  This is a direct quote from his partner, Jim...

JS> from: Jim Selleck
JS> on  : Wed 19-Oct-1994  9:10a  *RECEIVED*
JS>
JS>  The IBM rumor is just not true.  Ken DOES plan to create and IBM version,
JS>  but not until CNet 4.0 for Amiga is released.

He posted it publicly at Future-World for any/all CNet SysOps to read.
It is NOT a big secret.
But you DO have to read the msg bases there to see info like that.

I would LOVE for that info to be in large, log-in, news-bulletins.
But Jim/Ken choose (for whatever reason) NOT to place them there.

--1886--

S>     While RIP may not be all that big with the Amiga community, it IS
S>     for the IBM world.  I long ago lost count of the number of users
S>     that have asked me, if CNet supports it.  And I don't mean via
S>     power menus, or tt?.???? files.

I'm only guessing, but wouldn't "tt.*" files be the best way to do it?
(Now, or in the future, with CNet displaying RIP graphics on local
screens, or not.)

How else are you going to allow users to choose between RIP and
several other types of menus?  How else is a SyOp going to create
different RIP and non-RIP displays?

Most likely Ken will just have CNet use "tt.*" RIP-menu files.
So I find it odd that people aren't doing that *TODAY*, but rather
waiting for some new, future method.  What new, future method would
you like to see CNet use (once it can already display RIP in local
screens)?

Why not get the jump on things and start designing and even using RIP
menus as of today?  You will most likely still be able to use the same
screens in the next release of CNet.

I know it's a little more inconvenient to have to use a RIP term to
view RIP screens on your own BBS, because CNet screen's can't yet show
them.  But it's still VERY doable.  If you aren't using the Sky-Pix
"slot", it's a great place to make "RIP" an available choice AS OF
TODAY.

--1887--

On Thu 22-Dec-1994  1:25p, James Ankuda said...
JA> I just was trying to get another sysop to switch to
JA> cnet and he said he was looking into it until he got this echo.  Some
JA> people really turned him off the way they talked down to others etc. 

I sure wouldn't let a (very) few "annoying" users in an echo make up
my mind for me on which BBS software I'm going to buy or not.  *I*
make that decision, not them.

Can I get the name/address of that SysOp?  I'd like to ask him something.
Thanks.

JA> it.  Also, I was considering making my origin line where it says CNet/3 to
JA> reflect something else, I think it would look kinda cool, like CNet/4.875
JA> or something hehehe...

Why don't you send that to Ken and ask if he thinks it is "kinda cool" too?

Deliberately causing confusion among CNet SysOps isn't my idea of "cool".
Maybe Ken feels differently and will love your idea.  (But I don't think so.)

--1888--

Has anyone been having a random problem like this...

I have 150-250 pieces of old and new mail in my mailbox.
Total size is about 400K.  I have my mailbox size limit set at 800K.

At random times, I get the CNet "mailbox is full msg" even though it isn't.
(And all future mail is lost.)

It only happened a couple of times, with incoming netmail.

(Although since the mail is lost, I don't really know if it's occurring a lot
or very rarely.)

I want to find what triggers this problem BEFORE I clean out my mailbox and
thus forcing the problem (and my only method of finding it) to disappear.

I asked Ken about this matter.  Here's his reply...

On Tuesday 27-Dec-94 Ken Pletzer said:
KS> There is a limit to the number of messages you can have ...
KS> I think it's 200.

KS> With the version I am working (WHEN it is done...!) mail
KS> messages will be virtually UNLIMITED (as with just about everything else).

--1889--

BB> If you get absolutely zero 28k8 connections, I'd definitely check into
BB> the matter.

C> Not so Bill....many phone exchanges do not support the required bandwidth
C> for
C> anyone (even you Bill) to connect at 28.8.  Unless one is connecting
C> regulary at 24000 and 26400 but rarely if ever gets a 28800 connect that
C> is the typical scenario and there would be no need for anyone to 'check
C> into ' anything. 

If your next 1000 28k8 callers get 0 connections at 28k8 it sure would
hurt to look into a few things.  I'm NOT saying go on a "wild goose
chase" or "spend $100s trying to fix it".  Just checking connections,
keeping cables short, asking the phone company about it, removing/re-
installing that modem-line surge protector, re-checking your config,
etc.  All free, simple things to do.  It can't hurt.

Heck, you can even force individual test calls to use AT&T, MCI,
SPRINT, ALLNET, Western Union, at will.  WITHOUT permanently switching
your long-distance service.  Here are the codes you dial BEFORE
dialing out...

MCI-10222     
Allnet-10444
AT&T-10288        
ITT-10488
Western Union-10220
Access Sprint-10333      
???-10811

If 1 carrier has a much cleaner (or dirtier) connection than the
others, maybe consider switching long-distance companies.  The tests
cost nothing more that of the long-distance charges (or course.)

C> Your advice is misplaced and well could lead one into a
C> wild goose chase when in actuality there is nothing the user can do to
C> improve his phone company's limited bandwidth.  Whether or not you
C> routinely get 28.8 connections is for the most part a situation out of
C> your hands and has little to do with you at all...assuming you do not cfg
C> your modem to prevent them by purposely going out of your way to lock out
C> the higher rates.  

I don't think anyone would purposely do that and then complain about
the lower rates.  But sure, that could be the cause too.  Why not
spend a few minutes checking into it???  I've *accidently* config'ed
things wrong in the past, as have most of us.  It's easy to to do.
All I said was "check into the matter".  (You are certainly free to
"ignore the matter", but I don't see the point to that.)

C> Furthermore you state that a 21.6 connection could shift upward to 24.0
C> and above..this would only be true with a v34 connection,which you don't
C> mention.
C> v.Terbo modems are maxed out at 21.6 and are unable to shift upwards.

You honeslty think that I meant that a modem that has a maximum speed
of 21k6 will some how magically start running at 24k 26k and 28k???
Nope.  I didn't think I had to specially state this, but I will...

The whole discussion was about 28k8 modems.  2400bps modems also won't
do 28k8 either.

C> Remember Bill we want 'facts not fiction' posted here.

Me too.  But I can't see any "fiction" in my post anywhere.

--1890--

HS> Ok... #1, You want all these names and #'s of all the people that are
HS> telling us this stuff... why don't you give us the name and #'s of the
HS> people that are telling you that CNet Amiga is not gone.... 

Sure.  The names are Ken/Jim themselves.  Work is continuing.  If you
absolutely don't believe me, ask them.  I will NOT be offended if you
verify ANYTHING/EVERYTHING that I post here.  I like verification.
But you're not likely to find that I'm just making things up out of
thin air.  I will NOT be offended if you think that of me, but I can't
imagine what I would gain by doing that.  I don't get paid anything
either way.

Here's a quote from Jim...
JS> The IBM rumor is just not true.  Ken DOES plan to create and IBM version,
JS> but not until CNet 4.0 for Amiga is released.

Here's a quote from Ken, as recently as last week...
On Tuesday 27-Dec-94 Ken Pletzer said:
KS> With the version I am working (WHEN it is done...!) mail
KS> messages will be virtually UNLIMITED (as with just about everything else)

But if you don't even believe the direct quotes that I post, it's
probably better to NOT believe anything that I state here at all.  If
that's the case, double-check it for yourself.  Please post your
findings.  The more info, the better.

HS> it seems that you are the only one that knows that CNet is 
HS> still around.... 

I'm the *ONLY* one???  Gosh, I hope not.  No one in the world (other
than me) knows anything about the above facts???

--1891--

To Ken/Jim...

Is there anything that I can post in the CNet Echos regarding CNet's
current progress?  It doesn't have to be lengthy, or give exact
details, or exact release dates.

Any details would be nice, but even just "work is continuing nicely" type
quotes would be welcome.

I'll quote you in the echo and it'll help limit the many wild rumors going
around.

Thanks.

--1892--

JG> I am not a sysop, but interseted in BBSs and CNet, and I was
JG> wondering if version 4 of CNet was being planned?  I had heard that there
JG> was not going to be a version 4.  Please update me...

I'm 1 of the beta-testers for CNet, and CNet's author himself has
stated several times that he is currently working on an update.  I
have no idea if it'll be called "v4.0" or whatever.  But there WILL be
an update and he is currently working on it.  I have no idea of the
exact release date.

JG> I had heard that there was not going to be a version 4.

Where did you hear that?  Several folks are spreading false rumors
like that.  Can I get that person's name/address?  I'd really like to
contact him and inform him of the real facts in this matter.  He
really needs to know the truth.

Even if you buy and stick with CNet v3.05c instead, it's still a
pretty slick piece of software (to put it mildly).  If you haven't
checked it out yet, the CNet demo package is free and well worth
playing with before you buy.  After you buy, you'll already be all
set-up and ready to go online immediately.  If you don't like CNet,
then it cost you nothing.

You can netmail CNet's author as "Ken Pletzer@1:2410/215".
Or call the 6-line HQ BBS at 313-255-2466.

Let us know what you decide and what you think of CNet.

--1893--

BB> I feel CNet itself is ULTRA secure.  Prove me wrong.  Illegally hack into
BB> Ken's BBS, or mine, or anyone's tomorrow.  But I don't think you'll be
BB> too successful. 

GM> I welcome anyone to hack my account, and I will give them $100.00
GM> bucks if they succeed.

Gary, let me know if you have any hackers succeed, or even take the
offer, or even attempt it.

I've got a feeling 30 days from now those VERY few folks that are
claiming CNet is *NOT* secure (by a long shot), will change their mind.

It's a perfect example of someone making a wild claim and then later
(when asked to prove it) they'll respond with "Er, ah, gee, ah, it's
not as easy as I previous thought".

But yet the damage is already done, because countless people have
already seen their wild claim they CNet is NOT a secure BBS package.
But I highly doubt they will come forward and admit they were very
wrong afterwards.

I'll give the hackers a head start....

CNet allows 14 character log-in passwords.  If only A-Z and 0-9
characters are used, that's EXACTLY 6,140,942,200,000,000,000,000
possible passwords.

If you guessed 100,000 passwords per *second* it would take more than
1,947,280,000 *YEARS* to guess them all.  Good luck.

(Using punctuation and other characters in a password would add
billions of more possible combinations.)

Needless to say, unless you've used a foolishly short, simple,
oblivious password, your $100 is safe.  And even if you have, then
that's *YOUR* fault, not a bug, or security hole in CNet itself.

I know that random or sequential password guessing is NOT the only
hacking method used today, but I just wanted to show that it's
pointless to even attempt that these days.  Even with the fastest
modems, we'll all be long since dead before they could even try all
possible password combos.

--1894--

JA> One thing to note though bill, most troublemakers are LOCAL to you, or
JA> your a local call for them.

I hadn't seen that to be the case here.  But if so, what would be
causing that?  Troublemakers can exist anywhere on the planet.

JA> oh, also that security program that prompts a user for a random piece of
JA> his info is really handy, as most fake accounts forget what they entered,
JA> and also most people with dupe accts forget their other accts info as
JA> well.

I've seen those programs.  I hate to answer the same question on my
3rd call as on my 43rd call.  If someone passed the info-check 42
previous times, I'm pretty sure it just wasn't blind luck.  I sure
wish those info-checker programs would STOP asking after the 5th call,
or so.  Or do some?  Which ones?  I'd love to tell a few sysops to run
them.  (If they must run such a checker at all.)  It doesn't take long
to see that anyone that specifically wants to enter false info, will
need to write it down.  And then the whole info-checking is a
pointless time/money waster.  But it will STILL inconvenience 1000s of
other callers that are NOT even using false info.  Ugh.

BB> Info-checking programs...

FK> What I did was make it a user configurable option.  

Is the new config'able version available to us?  What is the name and
version # we should be looking for?

FK> I'm not worried about
FK> Cnet getting hacked, those programs (in my opinion) are more for users
FK> protection.  I voice verify all my users so once they get an account if
FK> they are worried about it they can protect themselves.

I'm just curious about 2 things:

1) How many callers specifically choose to be asked questions over and
over and over again during every log-in?  How many choose to not be
bothered with that?

2) Can't a caller just use "FINGER" or "User List" and find out
certain info about a certain user and then use that to satisfy the
info-checking prg?  (Of course the info has to be public, not private
info.)

--1895--

M> how do i go about getting my update ??
M> to 3.05

Call Future World at 313-255-2466 and D/L it.
Or call 810-473-2020, or any of MANY BBSs all over the world.
All the executables are available at many sites.
You can set-up and run immediately.

But only Ken can give you the license file (313-255-2466) that will
allow you to CONTINUE to run CNet after the evaluation period expires.

--1896--

BB> Are the msg stored in Fidonet format?  If so, they get treated just
BB> like Fidonet echos.

SB> My concern with that is the tag name.  What if it is too long?

Pick 1 or more...

1) Convince your feed to shorten it.  I've often seen things like
c.s.a.hware used where comp.sys.amiga.hardware is needed.  (I'm
surprise so many IBM BBSs even allow 35-55 length tagnames.)

2) Convince Ken to lengthen that field in a future release of CNet.

3) Run true UUCP format, NOT Fidonet gated msgs.

Other than that, I haven't seen too many good solutions.  :-(

BB> Run true UUCP format, NOT Fidonet gated msgs.
SB> Not sure what you mean by this one.

Do #B instead of your current #A method ...

A) Have another Fidonet site recieve the newsgroups and covert them into
   Fidonet msgs and send them to you.

B) *YOU* use Dillion's UUCP software and call the UUCP site yourself,
   directly, and get the newsgroups and avoid Fidonet or gated msgs
   entirely.

The cost and work may (or may not) be important to you.

--1897--

Has anyone successfully gotten the "ME!" and "ME" (membership list)
cmds to work from within direct-access subs?

Also, what is the use of the "NOTE" cmd in direct-access subs?
Here's the quote from the manual...

CNET> The "NOTE" cmd will allow ANY user of the subboard to make changes to
CNET> a file's filenote (short description).  Becase no distinction is made
CNET> between users in this subboard, ANY user may make changes to the
CNET> filenotes.

Isn't that a pretty easy way for anyone to mess-up all your filenotes?
(Of course, CD-ROMs can't be written to, but what about hard-drives?)

--1898--

BB> Where did you hear that?  Several folks are spreading false rumors like
BB> that.  Can I get that person's name/address?  I'd really like to contact
BB> him and inform him of the real facts in this matter.  He really needs
BB> to know the truth.

JG>         Well...I don't know...I like him a lot, and he does run CNet
JG> 3.05c...so the only way I'll tell you who it is if you promise to yell at
JG> him...

I yell at no one.  Maybe he's just accidently misinformed.  Maybe he's
deliberately spreading false info to be amusing.  Who knows.  I've
seen BOTH occurring in various places.  As long as we know his name,
maybe we can find out which case is occurring here.  (Most likely the
former.)

JG> my chances, because I may be able to convince him to stay Amiga and CNet. 
JG> I think I'll just tell him myself that you (he knows you, I'm sure, by
JG> name atleast) told me that CNet 4.0 IS coming out.

I'd rather have you tell him that *KEN* said that a new release is coming.
(Called v4.0 or whatever.)
It's what *KEN* states that matters here, not my comments.  I don't
control CNet's releases/updates times or features or decisions.

JG> BB> - Bill "Mr. BBS" Beogelein, ag775@detroit.freenet.org
JG>      Aren't you the guy who's written all those P-files?  Can I have a
JG> list of your games?

File Requ "BBvers" from the address below for a list of pfiles.
(Mostly CNet DOS tools and utility pfiles.)  I'm not a big game player
or author.  Computer names never really interested me all that much.

JG> PS Is there going to be a PC Cnet?  I hope not...

Ken and Jim stated there will be.  But who knows when.  I'm sure it
wouldn't hurt to netmail Ken and let him know that you will be (or
won't be) buying the PC version.  (I won't be, I don't own a PC so it
will be of no use to me and my Amiga.)

--1899--

JC> A CoSysop of the other CNet BBS here in Lancaster county, a few weeks ago,
JC> threatened me that he was told BY Ken some sort of way to hack CNet and he
JC> could easily format my hard drives at any time if I were to make him mad
JC> in any way... Should I be worried of this threat? As of right now I'm
JC> not... 

Can I PLEASE have that "gentleman's" name and address?  Post it
publicly.  Or give it to me, I'll post it.  (Along with your quote.)

1) Are you running any pfiles that he wrote?  
2) Have you given him DOS access?
3) Have you given him sysop-powers, passwords, etc?  
   (Or could he have gotten them?)
4) Do you have the format cmd in BBSMENU or BBSTEXT?

Heck, my DOS format command isn't even on my harddrive.  I rarely need
it, I keep it on a floppy in a desk drawer.  He couldn't format my
harddrive even if he *DID* have *ALL* #1-#4 (and more).  (And I have
tape back-ups anyway.)

JC> threatened me that he was told BY Ken some sort of way to hack CNet

And why would Ken himself be telling people how to destroy any CNet
BBS in the world???  I doubt that.  If you were Ken, would YOU?  Ken
also runs a CNet BBS.

--EOF--

Friday 06-Jan-95 21:20:40

-Bill "Mr. BBS" Beogelein, 1-810-473-2020, 2-line HST 14.4k USR-DS, 1:2410/207
